Georges Carpentier - Evaluate

[Maxmomer]

How good was he? Where do you rate him at LHW and P4P? How do you rate him H2H against other fighters of similar weights? He has a lot of filler on his resume, but there are some stand out wins and accomplishments. He arguably beat Joe Jeannette in 1914, though he officially lost the decision. He beat Gunboat Smith in 1914, Smith was coming off of wins over Sam Langford, Jack Blackburn and Arthur Pelky. Aside from Jack Dempsey he was the only fighter to KO Battling Levinsky before he was utterly shot. Ted Kid Lewis, Joe Beckett and Billy Wells aren't bad wins either. He also looks pretty good on film, putting up a good fight against the bigger, stronger more powerful Jack Dempsey for the four rounds he managed to last.

[mcvey]

How good was his? Where do you rate him at LHW and P4P? How do you rate him H2H against other fighters of similar weights? He has a lot of filler on his resume, but there are some stand out wins and accomplishments. He arguably beat Joe Jeannette in 1914, though he officially lost the decision. He beat Gunboat Smith in 1914, Smith was coming off of wins over Sam Langford, Jack Blackburn and Arthur Pelky. Aside from Jack Dempsey he was the only fighter to KO Battling Levinsky before he was utterly shot. Ted Kid Lewis, Joe Beckett and Billy Wells aren't bad wins either. He also looks pretty good on film, putting up a good fight against the bigger, stronger more powerful Jack Dempsey for the four rounds he managed to last.

Carpentier was a good fighter came up through the weights ,but his win over Smith was a dsq,Lewis was a Welter and the referee was holding Lewis's arm when Carpentier kod him. Dempsey was asked by promoter Tex Rickard to carry Carpentier for a couple of rounds to"give the folks their money's worth". Likely Dempsey could have dusted him quicker if he had tried.Carpentier was a fine LH but not top 10 imo.

[flamengo]

McVey... Would yourself, or any others who read this post agree, that Carpentier had the greatest punching ability for any man his size, for the era?? Constantly braving fights against much larger men, his punch was on par with that of Tommy Burnes... IMO. He managed a fkn fantastic right hand on Dempsey. In all of Dempsey's title defences, its difficult to find another single blow that rattled his brain, as much as that of Carpentiers right hand.

[Maxmomer]

Carpentier was a good fighter came up through the weights ,but his win over Smith was a dsq,Lewis was a Welter and the referee was holding Lewis's arm when Carpentier kod him. Dempsey was asked by promoter Tex Rickard to carry Carpentier for a couple of rounds to"give the folks their money's worth". Likely Dempsey could have dusted him quicker if he had tried.Carpentier was a fine LH but not top 10 imo.

Yes, it was a DQ loss, but according to some on this forum, and what little I've been able to find about the fight myself, Carpentier was winning at the time and Smith may have fouled out. As for Dempsey carrying Carp, I've stated in the past that Dempsey seemed to be working at a more relaxed pace and settled on just wearing Carpentier down instead of trying to outright blitz him, but Carpentier still showcased some good skills and put up a good fight in the time he had. So Ted Kid Lewis was a bad win, then? I never said they were great or even good wins. Just not bad. And boxrec has his weight listed for that fight at 157, making him a middleweight at the time, though still out-sized by Carpentier.

[Maxmomer]

McVey... Would yourself, or any others who read this post agree, that Carpentier had the greatest punching ability for any man his size, for the era?? Constantly braving fights against much larger men, his punch was on par with that of Tommy Burnes... IMO. He managed a fkn fantastic right hand on Dempsey. In all of Dempsey's title defences, its difficult to find another single blow that rattled his brain, as much as that of Carpentiers right hand.

I think Carpentier had quite excellent P4P punching ability. Like I said, he KO'd Battling Levinsky, and did momentarily rattle Dempsey, though for the most part Dempsey was walking through those right hands with no ill-effects. In Dempsey's biography he noted that Carpentier was built like a puncher.

[Mendoza]

A very good fighter who won belts ( French ) from flyweight to light heavy. Carpentier was skilled, I just don't think he was tough enough or durable enough to rate as top 10 ATG at light heavy.

[Maxmomer]

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[Maxmomer]

A very good fighter who won belts ( French ) from flyweight to light heavy. Carpentier was skilled, I just don't think he was tough enough or durable enough to rate as top 10 ATG at light heavy.

What's the highest you could see yourself rating him at Light-heavyweight?

[Mendoza]

What's the highest you could see yourself rating him at Light-heavyweight?

Somewhere between 11-17. Like I said he was a high end skill guy, just lacked the top end punch and the ability to take one...which matter more and more as fighters move up in class.

I suggest you watch Carpentier vs Battling Siki. Great fight! Siki's durability and wild style wins over Carpentier's superior skills. Its a pity that the film was edited, and Siki kicked Carpentier when he was down accoridng to some.

The way I see it, Carpentier was on his way out.

[Maxmomer]

Somewhere between 11-17. Like I said he was a high end skill guy, just lacked the top end punch and the ability to take one...which matter more and more as fighters move up in class.

I suggest you watch Carpentier vs Battling Siki. Great fight! Siki's durability and wild style wins over Carpentier's superior skills. Its a pity that the film was edited, and Siki kicked Carpentier when he was down accoridng to some.

The way I see it, Carpentier was on his way out.

I've watched parts of it a long time ago. At the time I didn't even know who Siki was and was shocked when he got up and KO'd Carp. I need to revisit that sometime soon. Do you think the Dempsey fight took anything out of Carpentier, or was he just steadily declining due to an already long career?

[Senya13]

Outside of Top 30 at lhw, and outside of Top 100 P4P. Not particularly skilled or fast or clever, good punch was all he had. Plus a lot of hype.
Smith didn't foul out. He barely grazed Carpentier when the latter went down, the punch had no power behind it, but Carpentier's manager saw it as a safe way of winning a dangerous fight.

[flamengo]

Outside of Top 30 at lhw, and outside of Top 100 P4P. Not particularly skilled or fast or clever, good punch was all he had. Plus a lot of hype.

Sounds like another great, with limited PUNCH, SKILLS...

Carpentier has a LEGITIMATE reason to be a top 100.

[Senya13]

Remind me how good did he do meeting American fighters, even at his home turf?

[mcvey]

Somewhere between 11-17. Like I said he was a high end skill guy, just lacked the top end punch and the ability to take one...which matter more and more as fighters move up in class.

I suggest you watch Carpentier vs Battling Siki. Great fight! Siki's durability and wild style wins over Carpentier's superior skills. Its a pity that the film was edited, and Siki kicked Carpentier when he was down accoridng to some.

The way I see it, Carpentier was on his way out.
The Siki fight was a fix.

[mcvey]

Remind me how good did he do meeting American fighters, even at his home turf?

To be fair to Georges his early defeats to Dixie Kid ,Billy Papke and Frank Klaus happened when he was 17 ,and 18 years old.Gene Tunney beat a faded Carpentier and remarked on his skills ,so did Loughran, he wasnt all hype by any means as his fight with Jeanette showed.In my top 20 at LH

[Senya13]

A fix where Carpentier is first declared the winner on foul, but an hour later the decision was changed in favor of Siki?

[klompton]

Carpentier's ability was so overrated its ridiculous. That being said his impact on the sport in the first quarter century is so underrated its ridiculous. I have every scrap of film on Carpentier that exists including several fights most people dont even know exist so I feel fairly qualified to make the above statement. His entire style was predicated on landing a right hand (which was admittedly very powerful) however if you can figure this out he would have been easy to beat. His record isnt that impressive when you really research and scrutinize it. The guy lost to Dixie Kid, Jeannette, Klaus, and Papke. In the latter two fights he tried his damndest to win on a foul (a favorite trick of his when he was getting his ass kicked). He lost to Dempsey after having won the LHW championship but a lot of people at the time both before and after said the Levinsky fight was fixed and when you read about it you come away with the impression that Levinsky was basically cashing out. Lost to Tunney, lost to Gibbons (who again he tried to win on a foul against after losing every round). Lost to Loughran. Lost to Siki (after trying to have the fight fixed in his favor). He deserved to lose his fight with Willie Lewis who was an overweight welterweight at the time and was on the down side of his career. Lewis dropped Carpentier several times and outboxed him but still lost the decision. Gunboat Smith was losing the fight when he landed his famous punch and dropped Carpentier on his haunches. Gunboat without realizing Carpentier was down shot a lot right which barely grazed the top of Carpentier's head (I have photos showing the punch skimming over the top) and Carpentier claimed a foul (again, his favorite trick). The film has yet to be found but people who saw the film in the United States stated that Smith should not have been disqualified and that the fight was starting to turn in his favor. His fights with Arthur Townley and Grundhoeven were almost certainly fixed (very poor acting) particularly by Townely. In addition to this it was felt that Carpentier won on blatant fouls against George Cook and Kid Lewis. Now that Ive put that in perspective Ill give him the credit he deserves. Carpentier can not be underestimated for the role he played in popularizing boxing in Europe. Without the glitz and glamour he brought to the sport Europe would have been years away from the boom it experienced between 1910 and 1930. Thats an incredible amount of influence. Furthermore look at the first million dollar gate. Anyone who thinks that was because of Dempsey is out of their gourd. It was interest in Carpentier that made the million dollar gate. He was able to draw crossover fans in from all sections of American society to the sport (just as he had done in Europe) paving the way for the major promotions that Rickard took part in there after. You want photos? More photos on Carpentier than any other boxer of that era. Want film? Carpentier had more movies made of him than any other boxer of that era BY FAR maybe three or four times as many. He starred on stage, screen, and radio. The guy had MASSIVE crowds following his every move just when he went window shopping. For that he deserves to be in the hall of fame, not for his accomplishments or his skill. In that regard he was style over substance.

[My2Sense]

Carpentier's ability was so overrated its ridiculous. That being said his impact on the sport in the first quarter century is so underrated its ridiculous.

Yep, I think that pretty much sums it up right there.

He was a good fighter in every weight class he was in, but was a notch or two below the very best at every weight. Was stopped by Dixie Kid in his one genuinely big fight as a welterweight. Became a legit contender at middleweight, but was battered into submission by Papke and Klaus in his two big step ups there (both fights should've been TKO losses, not DQs). His biggest career win, vs. Gunboat Smith, came on a highly controversial DQ in a "stinker" kind of fight. KO'd Levinsky, a credible win (and probably his defining one), but Levinsky was considered a vulnerable and reluctant champion and was roundly criticized for not risking his title against the top contenders. Once Carpentier had the title, he followed suit by ducking the top contenders as well - Tunney, Loughran, Greb, Gibbons; all were forced to fight each other in endless round robins while Carpentier hand picked ex-welterweight champ Kid Lewis and an unheralded clubfighter in Battling Siki. Once Siki had stripped him of his title, of course, he was forced to fight all the top contenders he had ducked - and they duly whupped him.

Like you said, he was somewhat one-dimensional. He relied a lot on his big right hand, but once that was neutralized - as his losses to Klaus, Dempsey, Siki, Tunney, etc. showed - he was basically ineffective.

IMO his fame and his rating, even his HOF entry, are as much the result of his impact and popularity than his actual substance as a fighter.

[The Kurgan]

To be fair to Georges his early defeats to Dixie Kid ,Billy Papke and Frank Klaus happened when he was 17 ,and 18 years old.Gene Tunney beat a faded Carpentier and remarked on his skills ,so did Loughran, he wasnt all hype by any means as his fight with Jeanette showed.In my top 20 at LH

I remember being VERY impressed by both Tunney and Carpentier in their fight. It's not often that boxers that skilled have fights that are that entertaining. It just goes to show that chess-games don't always have to be boring.

[janitor]

Carpentier's ability was so overrated its ridiculous. That being said his impact on the sport in the first quarter century is so underrated its ridiculous. I have every scrap of film on Carpentier that exists including several fights most people dont even know exist so I feel fairly qualified to make the above statement. His entire style was predicated on landing a right hand (which was admittedly very powerful) however if you can figure this out he would have been easy to beat. His record isnt that impressive when you really research and scrutinize it. The guy lost to Dixie Kid, Jeannette, Klaus, and Papke. In the latter two fights he tried his damndest to win on a foul (a favorite trick of his when he was getting his ass kicked). He lost to Dempsey after having won the LHW championship but a lot of people at the time both before and after said the Levinsky fight was fixed and when you read about it you come away with the impression that Levinsky was basically cashing out. Lost to Tunney, lost to Gibbons (who again he tried to win on a foul against after losing every round). Lost to Loughran. Lost to Siki (after trying to have the fight fixed in his favor). He deserved to lose his fight with Willie Lewis who was an overweight welterweight at the time and was on the down side of his career. Lewis dropped Carpentier several times and outboxed him but still lost the decision. Gunboat Smith was losing the fight when he landed his famous punch and dropped Carpentier on his haunches. Gunboat without realizing Carpentier was down shot a lot right which barely grazed the top of Carpentier's head (I have photos showing the punch skimming over the top) and Carpentier claimed a foul (again, his favorite trick). The film has yet to be found but people who saw the film in the United States stated that Smith should not have been disqualified and that the fight was starting to turn in his favor. His fights with Arthur Townley and Grundhoeven were almost certainly fixed (very poor acting) particularly by Townely. In addition to this it was felt that Carpentier won on blatant fouls against George Cook and Kid Lewis. Now that Ive put that in perspective Ill give him the credit he deserves.

This is a well researched and well informed post but I have to make a few observations:

You make no mention of Carpinters precociousnes as a young fighter. The fact that he was winning European titles as a teenager in low weight classes. The guy fought from flyweight to heavyweight. This in itself makes him remarkable.

Carpintier probably deserved to win the Gunboat Smith fight and it is possible that Smith simply fouled out. That at least is the impresion that the NYT gives.

Carpintier was held in verry high regard by contemporary observers/fighters like Loughran and Schmeling.

He isnt anywhere high up my top lightheavyweights list but I still think that he was something special.

[klompton]

If you beat a fighter, particularly of the famous calibre of Carpentier, do you tear him down and thus make your win less impressive or do you build him up as a fantastic and make your win look all the better? Especially when you consider that both Loughran and Tunney were still hunting for a championship when they fought Carp. I have the complete Tunney fight, all rounds (which is very rare) and Carpentier gets a bad whipping. He was non competetive after the fourth or fifth round

As for his winning titles at an early age thats impressive if you dont consider the fact that during those years boxing was an extremely fledgling sport on the continent of Europe and as such many of the fighters he was facing in lower weight classes were not very experienced or very skilled in comparison to even a young Carpentier who was benefitting from the training of Willie Lewis, a very skilled welterweight who would go on to be a good handler of fighters later in his career and as I stated really deserved the win over Carpentier. He schooled Carpentier literally and figuratively.

[mcvey]

If you beat a fighter, particularly of the famous calibre of Carpentier, do you tear him down and thus make your win less impressive or do you build him up as a fantastic and make your win look all the better? Especially when you consider that both Loughran and Tunney were still hunting for a championship when they fought Carp. I have the complete Tunney fight, all rounds (which is very rare) and Carpentier gets a bad whipping. He was non competetive after the fourth or fifth round

As for his winning titles at an early age thats impressive if you dont consider the fact that during those years boxing was an extremely fledgling sport on the continent of Europe and as such many of the fighters he was facing in lower weight classes were not very experienced or very skilled in comparison to even a young Carpentier who was benefitting from the training of Willie Lewis, a very skilled welterweight who would go on to be a good handler of fighters later in his career and as I stated really deserved the win over Carpentier. He schooled Carpentier literally and figuratively.

I respect the research you put in ,and look forward to your book on Harry Greb, but it occurs to me, that you have never said a favourable thing about any fighter on this forum, so maybe I won't enjoy your Greb book after all.Just an observation.

[Mendoza]

The Siki fight was a fix.

No it was not a fix. Carpentier got Ko'd in a fight loaded with action.

[klompton]

No it was not a fix. Carpentier got Ko'd in a fight loaded with action.

The fight was fixed by Descamps, Carp's manager, for Siki to lay down. Siki double crossed him and knocked him out then revealed the plot and how it went down. It was a huge scandal in France and there were even hearings into it after which it was swept under the rug. You can see in the film that Descamps goes from his corner to Siki's corner during the fight and starts screaming at Siki's manager for not going along with the plan.

[klompton]

Mcvey: The thread asked to evaluate Carpentier and I gave my opinion. Its absolutely untrue that Ive never said anything positive about any fighter on here. I happen to enjoy researching Carpentier. I have a lot of information on him and I was happy to share it. I dont agree that he was a great fighter but I have given him an enormous amount of credit for his influence and because of that I think the sport owes him a debt of gratitude. Right now some of the best fighters in the world (a lot of them in fact) come from Europe. Without Carpentier that may not be the case. I dont see how that is negative. I gave an honest assessment of skills and some of the shady circumstances sorrounding his career and some of his fights and I stand by those ascertions because they are backed up by people who were there at the time or witnessed on film by myself.

[The Kurgan]

As for his winning titles at an early age thats impressive if you dont consider the fact that during those years boxing was an extremely fledgling sport on the continent of Europe

... What?

[My2Sense]

Well Klompton your opinion seems to hold salt but what about Tommy Loughran who said that Carpentier was one of the best he saw. I seem to remember Tunney also saying very favorable things about his fighting skills.


Should a fighter be assessed based on what others say about him, or what his reputation happens to be at one time, rather than his actual substance and achievements?

I always find it very questionable when people do that.

[My2Sense]

The Siki fight was a fix.

Get outta here!! That fight was a war!!

That's about as realistic as saying they were aliens from a faraway planet.

[My2Sense]

Carpintier probably deserved to win the Gunboat Smith fight and it is possible that Smith simply fouled out. That at least is the impresion that the NYT gives.



The impression that I got was that Carpentier had turned it into a stinker kind of fight, and was often crouching or squatting close to the canvas throughout the fight, in what probably should've been illegal. What I've read seem to suggest the foul was essentially forced by Carpentier, as Smith was becoming frustrated with his questionable antics.

[mcvey]

Get outta here!! That fight was a war!!

That's about as realistic as saying they were aliens from a faraway planet.
Sorry it was a cross[on the public] that became a double cross,rather like the Burns OBrien second fight, you need to do some research on it my friend.

[mcvey]

No it was not a fix. Carpentier got Ko'd in a fight loaded with action.
WRONG AGAIN M!

It was a fix that was reversed by the Siki camp,or rather by the Senegalese himself.It is well documented .

[Mendoza]

WRONG AGAIN M!

It was a fix that was reversed by the Siki camp,or rather by the Senegalese himself.It is well documented .

Siki took no part of taking a dive, hence it was a REAL FIGHT.

Saying it was a fix implies a predetermined winner, McVey. In this fight, that was not the case at all. If you make a mistake, just move on.

[mcvey]

Mcvey: The thread asked to evaluate Carpentier and I gave my opinion. Its absolutely untrue that Ive never said anything positive about any fighter on here. I happen to enjoy researching Carpentier. I have a lot of information on him and I was happy to share it. I dont agree that he was a great fighter but I have given him an enormous amount of credit for his influence and because of that I think the sport owes him a debt of gratitude. Right now some of the best fighters in the world (a lot of them in fact) come from Europe. Without Carpentier that may not be the case. I dont see how that is negative. I gave an honest assessment of skills and some of the shady circumstances sorrounding his career and some of his fights and I stand by those ascertions because they are backed up by people who were there at the time or witnessed on film by myself.

I said Carpentier was a good fighter ,never said he was great ,though as I stated Tunney and Loughran rated him,if you think they did that to big themselves up ,thats your opinion.I'm sure everyone on here was grateful that you did share you info with us ,I am.
The Orchid Man did have a vast influence on European boxing but we are more concerned with his ability in the ring ,not whether he slept with Mistinguettt, or dressed smarter than Chevalier.Carp's early defeats to Dixie Kid ,Papke , and Klaus can be excused I think he was a 17 and 18 year old teenager. I beleive Deschamps idea was if he saw his boy was in over his head he would have no qualms about pulling him out in those early fights ,You can correct me if I'm wrong.
Carpentier's fight with Jeannette although a losing one suggests he was more than a media creation IMO. ps When is the Greb book coming out?
ps Afte reading the "Cinderella Man "I notice you received fullsome praise from the author for helping him with his research,as I said earlier you do your homework.

[klompton]

Siki took no part of taking a dive, hence it was a REAL FIGHT.

Saying it was a fix implies a predetermined winner, McVey. In this fight, that was not the case at all. If you make a mistake, just move on.


Thats the point. It was a fix. Siki was supposed to take a dive and he ended up double crossing Carpentier and made a real fight out of it and ended up stopping Carpentier. The fact that Carpentier was having his fights arranged in such a manner is definately a knock on his career.

[mcvey]

Siki took no part of taking a dive, hence it was a REAL FIGHT.

Saying it was a fix implies a predetermined winner, McVey. In this fight, that was not the case at all. If you make a mistake, just move on.
It was a pre arranged tank job but Siki went back on the agreement supposedly because Carpentier began to take some liberties with him.I.E FIX. NOW DO YOU GET IT?.
Christ! its been explained 3 times by Klompton and myself :patsch

[Privatejoker]

Georges was a superstar in his day.

[mcvey]

Georges was a superstar in his day.

Do you have the address of the young lady in your avatar ? I have somehting I would like to give her.:lol:

[My2Sense]

Sorry it was a cross[on the public] that became a double cross,rather like the Burns OBrien second fight, you need to do some research on it my friend.

I know that story, but that's not what you had said. You said it was a "fix". Whether or not there were efforts to fix the fight or not, or one guy had "agreed" to throw the fight, the fact is the fight was a real fight and played out to a real result.

Hence not a fix.

[klompton]

The result, which is not good for carpentier, is the same. His management and the people who bankrolled him were involved in fixes to maintain his image. Period. Did it come back to bite them in the ass? Yes. But the fact of the matter is that money was paid to Siki to take a dive in a fight in which he really had no other qualification for getting a title shot other than the fact that he was willing to lay down. You can spin it anyway you want but the fight was shady period end of story. That combined with rampant rumors of a Levinsky fix, obvious dives by Grundhoven and Townley (who goes down more than once without even being hit), poor decisions on his behalf (Lewis) and friendly officiating (Smith, Kid Lewis, and Cook), as well as his penchant for trying to win the easy way when things werent going his way- (Klaus, Papke, Tunney, Gibbons, and others) and it doesnt really speak well for his greatness. My guess is that had there been espn and hbo back in the 10s and 20s people would have tired of his act very quickly. The fact that the world was a lot bigger place in that era and media wasnt nearly as widespread added to the curiousity factor and contributed to making him such a box office draw.

[mcvey]

I know that story, but that's not what you had said. You said it was a "fix". Whether or not there were efforts to fix the fight or not, or one guy had "agreed" to throw the fight, the fact is the fight was a real fight and played out to a real result.

Hence not a fix.
Siki did not try in the earlier rounds ,until the Frenchman took liberties,any fight where one or both parties is not giving of his best ,but acting to a prearranged arrangement is a fix in my book.If you need to call it a straight fight thats your perogative ,for me it was a" barney".

[Mendoza]

I know that story, but that's not what you had said. You said it was a "fix". Whether or not there were efforts to fix the fight or not, or one guy had "agreed" to throw the fight, the fact is the fight was a real fight and played out to a real result.

Hence not a fix.

This is how I see it as well. For those who have not seen the fight Carpentier vs Siki was not a fix! It was a war. Remember this was a 20 round fight. So there was a feeling out process early.

There might have been some talk about a pre-fight fix, but it was very real in the ring.

Here is a clip of the fight:

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[flamengo]

Do you have the address of the young lady in your avatar ? I have somehting I would like to give her.:lol:


McVey... I hope its my phone number you are hoping to pass on to her....

:hey

[turpinr]

McVey... I hope its my phone number you are hoping to pass on to her....

:hey

what makes you so special,what about me :hey:yep:tong:tong:tong

[Mendoza]

Thats the point. It was a fix. Siki was supposed to take a dive and he ended up double crossing Carpentier and made a real fight out of it and ended up stopping Carpentier. The fact that Carpentier was having his fights arranged in such a manner is definately a knock on his career.

Just to clarify there was some writings that the fight was supposed to be a fix, but it was not a fix in the ring. It was a real fight as you said. That was my point. The ring action was on the level.

If it was a fix, Carpentier wins. I also agree that any fighter who claims he took part in a fixed fight should have their career knocked, as you never know what fighters took dives for him. This includes real ring legends such as Joe Gans, Jack O'Brien, Jack Johnson, and Jake LaMotta.


I tend to beleive the double cross in alleged fix fight is an advantage for the person who is doing the double cross. If one person expects the other person to wilt, he does not train as hard. As soon as the guy supposed to take a dive opens up, the other guy is open to an unexpected heart check.

[mcvey]

Just to clarify there was some writings that the fight was supposed to be a fix, but it was not a fix in the ring. It was a real fight as you said. That was my point. The ring action was on the level.

If it was a fix, Carpentier wins. I also agree that any fighter who claims he took part in a fixed fight should have their career knocked, as you never know what fighters took dives for him. This includes real ring legends such as Joe Gans, Jack O'Brien, Jack Johnson, and Jake LaMotta.


I tend to beleive the double cross in alleged fix fight is an advantage for the person who is doing the double cross. If one person expects the other person to wilt, he does not train as hard. As soon as the guy supposed to take a dive opens up, the other guy is open to an unexpected heart check.
If you include Johnson, as well you may, you must include Ketchel because he was party to the fix,and double crossed his opponent So did Burns against O Brien.Johnson agreed to carry Ketchel,as did Robinson with several opponents ,the difference was that Ketchel diverted from the script,excited by the pro White crowd he got frisky ,gambled and was starched. TommyRyan did not train seriously for Kid McCoy beleiving him to be ill, McCoy showed up in top shape and gave Ryan a lacing.He did the same thing with Choynsky.
. Corbett's fight with McCoy was a fix too.On the subject of OBrien,the November 1961 issue of the Ring carried an article by Dan Daniel on the subject of O Briens fixed fights,OBrien stated that nearly all of them were fakes..O Briens fight with Joe Walcott is generally considered to be a fake. Question is how many careers do you want to knock?
Armstron is widely beleived to have let Ross go the distance . Many say Charles took it easy on Louis. Holmes on Ali .Ike Williams did not want to ko Bob Mont gomery ,he wanted to punish him but Montgomery fell too early for Ikes liking . If a fighter is not going all out is the fight a fix?
How many bouts between the Black Dynamite crew of Langford. Jeannette and Mcvey were all out ? And how many were glorified sparring sesions?Where would you put them?
Its on record that Jim Jeffries had a substantial bet on Fitz in their first encounter,after the fight he was open about it he saw it as an each way bet."If I lose I wil be able to use the money ,and if I win I wont need it."No one doubts Jeff tried his best ,but it is circular logic at the least.You would have to add a few of Abe Atells bouts as he carried opponents and also lost some for the benefit of gambling coups in rematches ,this occurred in some of Jimmy Carters fights too.I'm afraid you are going to down grade an awful lot of fighters .

[flamengo]

Does anyone believe, the KNEE in the NUTS was a fix also.. Carp must have been frozen after that... Great slo-mo footage.

[mcvey]

Does anyone believe, the KNEE in the NUTS was a fix also.. Carp must have been frozen after that... Great slo-mo footage.
Siki became enraged when Carpentier started to T off on him contrary to their agreement and lost his head,result the "Orchid Man "nearly became the "Eunoch Man",:lol:

[flamengo]

Siki became enraged when Carpentier started to T off on him contrary to their agreement and lost his head,result the "Orchid Man "nearly became the "Eunoch Man",:lol:

Seriously mate... I think Golota may have viewed that footage as 'ring guidence'... Its the most obvious knee in the groin since god knows when... It hurt watching it... 4 times...

p.s. Hope lifes treating you well old man. Cheers.

[markedwardscott]

The black fighters of the early 20th century often had no choice but to lay down for their crooked managers and throw a fight now and then. Please read details in chapter 7 of my book on joe Gans. The book on Battling Siki also does a good job of describing fixed fights in the 20's, the Siki/Carpentier fight especially.


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[klompton]

Things were much different in France mark. Siki wasnt forced into a fix by the color of his skin it was simply the most financially rewarding option for his manager at the time. Race didnt have anything to do with it. In France during the first quarter of the century race played a back seat to culture which is why so many black fighters from america went to france and flourished. Im not suggesting that racism didnt exist in France but it was not nearly as insidious as it was in the United States during the same time period and allowed for far more opportunities for blacks. The Siki book is a good book but it strikes me at how much of an apologist the author is for Siki's behavior. Siki's reputation as a lowlife shitheel who didnt possess any manners was well deserved. The guy was a nut and an asshole. Futhermore the author pumps up Siki's ability and accomplishments far more than what they were. Siki was a very crude fighter. Strong, and durable yes but when he started meeting people who werent completely overrated (Carpentier) or complete euro trash (Nilles) he got his ass handed to him (Berlenbach, Norfolk, and others). The one argument I will side with the author on is that Siki was absolutely robbed against McTigue. I have the most complete version of the fight which exists and McTigue did absolutely nothing except try to last the distance (which is pretty much how he usually fought).

[My2Sense]

The black fighters of the early 20th century often had no choice but to lay down for their crooked managers and throw a fight now and then. Please read details in chapter 7 of my book on joe Gans. The book on Battling Siki also does a good job of describing fixed fights in the 20's, the Siki/Carpentier fight especially.


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Does the book confirm that Gans actually took a dive?

[mcvey]

Seriously mate... I think Golota may have viewed that footage as 'ring guidence'... Its the most obvious knee in the groin since god knows when... It hurt watching it... 4 times...

p.s. Hope lifes treating you well old man. Cheers.

Hey ,not so much of the Old Man,:lol: I'm very well thanks had a great weekend so far,running my dogs ,went to the theatre in the evening ,,out to the Pub today.Hope everything is OK in Rolf Harris land,crack open a tinny with me later.:hi: