View Full Version : Why did Frazier retire when he did?
He'd lost 2 in a row, but to great, great fighters. At 32 he wasn't ancient and could easily have continued against mid-range contenders even if he considered his title-fighting days over.
Has anyone read Joe's take on this? I guess he just thought he wasn't a champ any more and it was time to call it quits, but wondering if anyone has insights on it.
Incidentally, probably a good call on his part. I know he had the comeback fight and abandoned that quickly, but he does seem to be a case of someone that knew when to pack it in.
The Wanderer
03-11-2009, 02:00 PM
It was time.
He'd nearly died after the first Ali fight, (and personally I don't think, from what I've seen, that he had regained much of his form from Ali-Frazier I until Manila) Frazier had a wealth of physical problems including a cataract in one eye, high blood pressure, arthritis, etc. After his first lost to foreman, he fought 4 times in the next 2 and a half years, beating Bugner and two guys he'd already beaten before in Quarry and Ellis, (and Ellis at least majorly on the downside by that point) while losing in Ali-Frazier II.
Then comes another loss at the hands of Ali in a hugely damaging fight and another pasting from Foreman. It was time, and Frazier was done at that point. He was done physically, he still had a warrior's heart but not the ability to use it like he used to, and I just don't think Frazier had any taste for hanging around and facing all the also rans and fringe contenders in the Heavyweight ranks if he didn't have a realistic chance of being champ.
Russell
03-11-2009, 02:04 PM
Partly the same reason Marciano retired at a nearly identical age.
The style is unbelievably demanding, both mentally and physically. If that fire dims one bit you're in trouble.
Try crouching over and fighting like Marciano and Frazier. It kills your back, Marciano himself had terrible back problems because of it as his career came to an end.
GPater11093
03-11-2009, 02:55 PM
didnt he come back and draw with jumbo cummings rather generously how old was he then
It was time.
He'd nearly died after the first Ali fight, (and personally I don't think, from what I've seen, that he had regained much of his form from Ali-Frazier I until Manila) Frazier had a wealth of physical problems including a cataract in one eye, high blood pressure, arthritis, etc. After his first lost to foreman, he fought 4 times in the next 2 and a half years, beating Bugner and two guys he'd already beaten before in Quarry and Ellis, (and Ellis at least majorly on the downside by that point) while losing in Ali-Frazier II.
Then comes another loss at the hands of Ali in a hugely damaging fight and another pasting from Foreman. It was time, and Frazier was done at that point. He was done physically, he still had a warrior's heart but not the ability to use it like he used to, and I just don't think Frazier had any taste for hanging around and facing all the also rans and fringe contenders in the Heavyweight ranks if he didn't have a realistic chance of being champ.
Thanks, I didn't realize he was so broken down at that point. I know his hasn't been the best of post-boxing stories but it could certainly have been a lot worse.
didnt he come back and draw with jumbo cummings rather generously how old was he then
37. Thankfully a short-lived experiment.
GPater11093
03-11-2009, 03:13 PM
37. Thankfully a short-lived experiment.
yeh thank god he stopped after that
jaffay
03-11-2009, 04:03 PM
He was almost blind after all that blows thru career
AnthonyJ74
03-11-2009, 04:28 PM
And the guy is definitely punchy today; you can tell that he's an ex-fighter by the way he talks. He probably should have quit right after the first Ali fight; he would have saved a lot of brain cells and would have avoided the blow-outs to Foreman, which probably dropped him down a notch in the all-time rankings....
ChrisPontius
03-11-2009, 04:59 PM
Frazier had a lot of injuries and health (back) problems. You could say it's a miracle he was able to give Ali two such tough fights in the first place, in 1974 and 1975. I think he talked about retiring as early as in 1971.
round15
03-11-2009, 05:11 PM
Durham and Futch wanted Joe to retire immediately after the FOTC. Frazier kept putting off cataract surgery on top of his hypertension and arthritic problems.
Interestingly enough, Ali's greatness can be defined in how his primary opponents faired after fighting him. Liston was never the same, Frazier never the same, Norton never the same, Foreman never the same and even Spinks was never the same.
Frazier left almost everything in the ring against Ali in 1971. I have yet to see another heavyweight fighter let alone another boxer showcase the pressure and pace of a prime Joe Frazier. Tua, Tyson and Holyfield, who were somewhat pressure fighters don't even come close to Frazier in his prime. All this talk about Frazier being a slow starter only makes sense when comparing his speed to a prime Ali.
Bigcat
03-11-2009, 05:22 PM
Floyd Cummings let him know that he couldn't hang in decent company any more, Joe had fought a few wars in his career too... It definitely was time..
TBooze
03-11-2009, 06:12 PM
Floyd Cummings let him know that he couldn't hang in decent company any more, Joe had fought a few wars in his career too... It definitely was time..
Shame Bomber Bruno did not take the same advice from Jumbo, after that first round:rofl.....
And the guy is definitely punchy today; you can tell that he's an ex-fighter by the way he talks. He probably should have quit right after the first Ali fight; he would have saved a lot of brain cells and would have avoided the blow-outs to Foreman, which probably dropped him down a notch in the all-time rankings....
He was in a car crash recently.:?
kenmore
03-12-2009, 12:23 AM
After losing to Foreman in 1976, Frazier had accomplished as much as he could expect in boxing. There was no possibility of getting a fourth Ali fight or a third Foreman fight, so Joe's path to the championship seemed permanently blocked. Aside from this, after 12 years of pro boxing, Frazier's physical abilities were eroding. Financially, Frazier was set for life because his millions in earnings were invested in trust funds. All things considered, it seemed reasonable for Frazier to call it quits and enjoy his legacy as an all-time great heavyweight champion.
Mendoza
03-12-2009, 06:45 AM
Durham and Futch wanted Joe to retire immediately after the FOTC. Frazier kept putting off cataract surgery on top of his hypertension and arthritic problems.
Interestingly enough, Ali's greatness can be defined in how his primary opponents faired after fighting him. Liston was never the same, Frazier never the same, Norton never the same, Foreman never the same and even Spinks was never the same.
Frazier left almost everything in the ring against Ali in 1971. I have yet to see another heavyweight fighter let alone another boxer showcase the pressure and pace of a prime Joe Frazier. Tua, Tyson and Holyfield, who were somewhat pressure fighters don't even come close to Frazier in his prime. All this talk about Frazier being a slow starter only makes sense when comparing his speed to a prime Ali.
I think Frazier was the type of fighter who really listen and trusted his trainers and management. Best guess is Frazier heard the truth from his handlers, and accepted the truth after he just didn't have it anymore in the gym.
I'm glad Frazier got a draw vs Cummings. If Frazier won the Cummings fight on points, he would get Ko'd by the first top ten fighter he faced.
Had Frazier lost a close decision vs Cummings ( Which he should have he might have given it another go. As it was the draw was perfect for Frazier.
Frazier today is in bad shape. He can hardly talk, and his balance is shaky. It is my hope that Frazier and Ali can make peace with each other before one of the two passes on.
McGrain
03-12-2009, 07:14 AM
Mendoza, you are spot on with the Jumbo Cummings thing.
But Ali and Frazier make up? Never fucking happen.
Flea Man
03-12-2009, 08:02 AM
Listen to him speak now. Imagine if he'd had more fights.
turpinr
03-12-2009, 08:46 AM
Partly the same reason Marciano retired at a nearly identical age.
The style is unbelievably demanding, both mentally and physically. If that fire dims one bit you're in trouble.
Try crouching over and fighting like Marciano and Frazier. It kills your back, Marciano himself had terrible back problems because of it as his career came to an end.
bang on,floyd patterson too had a bad back ,in fact he had it when he had his second fight with ali.ali tortured patterson in that fight despite ali later saying he didn't take any pleasure in hurting his opponents.
Bummy Davis
03-12-2009, 09:03 AM
Frazier went down hill after Ali 1 ...It was hard for him to maintain the training and after becoming a worldwide star he picked up some poor habits...Staying up late girls and heavy parying...Besides the gruelling war with Ali.....He could not maintain the neccessary conditioning that his style of fighting needed...The Frazier that fought Stander,Daniels and Foreman was a shell of the guy that beat Ali and even Ali II and 3...even his body was evidently not as cut
redrooster
03-12-2009, 09:14 AM
he was obviously no longer the best in his weight class and was getting destroyed in fights
Russell
03-12-2009, 10:19 AM
Frazier today is in bad shape. He can hardly talk, and his balance is shaky. It is my hope that Frazier and Ali can make peace with each other before one of the two passes on.
Wow, barely talk?
Not from everything I've seen and I've seen footage of him up until a year or so ago if that. He's hardly punch drunk.
Frazier has admitted he was drinking a lot. He had that singing group he formed (Jee Frazier and the Knockouts" and he was enjoying money he made from Ali one, and was not training as he did earlier. Also, Yancy Durham, his trainer till his death in --1972?--had died. The great Eddie Futch took over, but relationship was not same. Yancy had Frazier disiplined, Futch was too nice a guy, and he was a friend of Frazier, which makes it tough to give orders anyway.
Frazier had money, and was on downslide. Retirement was correct move.
Marciano wa sdifferent, he was having too many problems with Al Wiell, who had yelled at his father, was stealing his money, and taking more and more control of his personal as well as professional life. Marciano wanted to retire before Moore fight, but Archie calling him coward mad ehim stay for one more. If not for Wiell, Marciano would have went to for number 50 IMO.
Danny
03-12-2009, 04:55 PM
Nowadays fighters continue long after they actually should, which is highly dangerous. Frazier probably should have retired after the third bout with Ali. I don't care how tough or good a guy may be, you take similar punishment to what Joe did in that fight, you will never be the same again, impossible!
Frazier had a lot of wear & tear in respect of his eyes long before he retired. Unfortunately for Joe, he often had to take a shot to land his own. Good job he was as tough as nails & was highly durable!
Great, great fighter though!
leverage
03-12-2009, 05:39 PM
Fraziers stlye of fighting more than anything else shortened his career. When you get hit as often as he did and had to fight in what is really an unnatural posture it's bound to take effect more sooner than later. The fact that he even lasted 15 rounds with ali after taking the clusters of hard shots that he did was a miracle in itself.
Bummy Davis
03-12-2009, 07:39 PM
Frazier has admitted he was drinking a lot. He had that singing group he formed (Jee Frazier and the Knockouts" and he was enjoying money he made from Ali one, and was not training as he did earlier. Also, Yancy Durham, his trainer till his death in --1972?--had died. The great Eddie Futch took over, but relationship was not same. Yancy had Frazier disiplined, Futch was too nice a guy, and he was a friend of Frazier, which makes it tough to give orders anyway.
Frazier had money, and was on downslide. Retirement was correct move.
Marciano wa sdifferent, he was having too many problems with Al Wiell, who had yelled at his father, was stealing his money, and taking more and more control of his personal as well as professional life. Marciano wanted to retire before Moore fight, but Archie calling him coward mad ehim stay for one more. If not for Wiell, Marciano would have went to for number 50 IMO.
very true...he could not get away from Weil...and there was money with Moore, I was told he wanted # 50 against Valdez but Nino lost to Satterfield (was dropped and dominated) and that fight lost its interest..Weil was taking too much off his purse and Rocky hated him, had some minor injuries but was starting to dislike the training and when that happens its time to leave
OBCboxer
03-12-2009, 08:04 PM
Joe Frazier had a tyle that wouldn't allow him to have a long lasting career. That is why he declined so rapidly at a younger age than most. He had taken a lot of punishment over the years and his body was starting to break down. He was getting arthritis and was getting hurt often.
After he got the draw from Cummings that was when he realized he couldn't a top fighter anymore. Luckily, he didn't have a bunch of yes-men in his corner' he had men in his corner that told him when it was time to hang it up.
He'll always be remembered as a true warrior in the sport and a top ten HW ATG.
he fought in 81 against jumbo cummings.............but too me he really retired in 1976......................why go on????........u lost in the thrilla in manilla in a war.....then u fight foreman in a rematch and get crusified again.........i think after the manilla fight fraziers heart wasnt into it.........he weighed in at 224 against foreman in 76....that showes u he dont have his heart into it.........he was 215 for 3rd ali fight .....
he grant
03-13-2009, 06:48 PM
Frazier had fought for years with poor vision in one eye and a damaged left arm. His vision was clearly failing. After brutal losses to Ali and Foreman it was time to pack it in ...
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