If Hatton beats manny pacquiao does he surpass Calzaghe in the British ATG rankings?

[JonOli]

If Hatton beats P4P no1 current hottest property in boxing - Manny Pacquiao - does he surpass Calzaghe in the British ATG rankings?

Hatton's best wins

Prime Manny Pacquiao

Kosta tszyu

Calzaghe best wins

Bernard Hopkins

Prime Mikkel Kessler

[9Ball]

Both have equally padded records but I would just about favour Hatton as Pacq is p4p much better than 'Nard or the robotic Kessler.

[Max Molyneux]

Hell naw.

[dwilson]

Both deserve a top 20 place although right now Hatton is more 30 if he is lucky.

[brown bomber]

Of course- I already think he's in with a fair argument

[TFFP]

No!

[Grant1]

Not for me.

[debaser]

I don't think so but a decent argument could certainly be made.

[DOM5153]

no
no
no
no

[DOM5153]

can i just say that JC was an underdog in many peoples eyes for all his big fights bar the RJJ fight, hatton was the underdog for the tszyu fight and thats fair enough, but manny is naturaly lighter and it could be a case of a beatdown, just a theory

ps pacman to win

[Beatboxer]

No, and it's probably better for your agenda that you keep the record comparison to a mere two names.

[toffeejack]

No chance.

If he goes on to beat Marquez though he definitley has an arguement.

[D-MAC]

I would have to say no.

However, it will propel him past Audley Harrison.

[toffeejack]

Of course- I already think he's in with a fair argument

As a former pro boxer I'm surprised you truely believe this mate.

[debaser]

I think Jeff is overly critical of JC and his stable but everyone is entitled to their opinion and that's what makes this forum.

[Cobbler]

Clearly, imo.

[JonOli]

can i just say that JC was an underdog in many peoples eyes for all his big fights bar the RJJ fight.


Maybe in your eyes, but not in the bookies which tend to reflect general consensus.

Joe was favourite in absolutely everyone of his fights bar Lacy.

He was a clear favourite at 1/2 I think to beat that version of Hopkins - he may have been shorter.

I'm not sure if being favourite or not is entirely relevant to the discussion though.

[toffeejack]

Maybe in your eyes, but not in the bookies which tend to reflect general consensus.

Joe was favourite in absolutely everyone of his fights bar Lacy.

He was 1/2 I think to beat that version of Hopkins - he may have been shorter.

Yes it's just the Lacy fight where he wasn't favourite. The Kessler fight was almost 50/50 but he was a slight favourite with the bookies.

Calzaghe's resume is great than Hatton's though.

The likes of Woodhall, Brewer, Sheika, Mitchell are clearly better than the ones Hatton was beating up back in the WBU days.

[Grant1]

I think Jeff is overly critical of JC and his stable but everyone is entitled to their opinion and that's what makes this forum.

:deal

In all seriousness Jeff gave a good summing up of how he feels on Calzaghe a few months ago and I thought it was fair. But he does tend to slip into hater mode all too often :lol:

[Rebel-INS]

I think people are forgetting Hatton is a natural LWW, and Pacman is fighting about 2 weights above his best weight.
IMO if Hatton loses his legacy is fucked.

[Cobbler]

I think people are forgetting Hatton is a natural LWW, and Pacman is fighting about 2 weights above his best weight.
IMO if Hatton loses his legacy is fucked.

How much of a favourite do you make Hatton then in percentage terms, and can I place a bet on Manny Pacquiao with you at the resultant odds?

[Rebel-INS]

How much of a favourite do you make Hatton then in percentage terms, and can I place a bet on Manny Pacquiao with you at the resultant odds?

I actually believe its a fairly even fight with Pac being my slight favourite. I don't particularly rate Hatton at all.

[JonOli]

I think people are forgetting Hatton is a natural LWW, and Pacman is fighting about 2 weights above his best weight.
IMO if Hatton loses his legacy is fucked.


You can just as easily say Hopkins is a career/natural middle weight, if you wanted.

Who did Hopkins ever beat that wasn't a middle weight or below?

Answer: just one = Tarver - draining off the the back of Rocky movie which he had to put on loads of weight for the part. The same Tarver who Dawson annihilated too. I think I would fancy Dawson to beat Hopkins now at LH.

Is that one win (Hopkins over Tarver) greater than Pacs over Diaz at 135 and/or Oscar at 147? JMM is now the no1 guy at 135 after beating the hottest property there in J Diaz. These guys can clearly mix it at and around the weight.

Pac is actually coming down in weight to fight Hatton, believe it or not.

You are right though, a win over Pac will always be tainted (in some ways - by some) because he's, on the whole, coming up from smaller weights, but lets not forget that Joe's best win (imo) against Hopkins has lots of mitigating factors as well (age, 2 recent losses etc).

I think a win over this version of Pac at 140, p4p no1, comeing off the Oscar win at 147 - is possibly greater then one over the version of Hopkins Joe fought at 175. I'm not entirly sure though.

[MaliSlamusrex]

I would put them equal.

[Cobbler]

I actually believe its a fairly even fight with Pac being my slight favourite. I don't particularly rate Hatton at all.

Explain how losing a fight to which he goes in as slight underdog would 'fuck Hatton's legacy'?

[Rebel-INS]

Explain how losing a fight to which he goes in as slight underdog would 'fuck Hatton's legacy'?

He would be losing to a natural SFW at his prime weight at probably his prime age. Hatton always blames the loss to Floyd on the fight being at 147.
I myself think it would be a very good win for Hatton, but whichever way it goes there'll be excuses for either result which won't be favourable for Hatton IMO.

[JonOli]

I myself think it would be a very good win for Hatton.


You're right, it would.

[LeadLeftHook]

I think Hatton is already close to or has surpassed Calzaghe. Calzaghes only claim to greatness is beating old shot fighters.

[yesihavearm2]

Jesus christ honestly.....


Ricky Hatton is not a better fighter than Joe Calzaghe and never will be !

He can beat Manny Pac and then JMM, but you only have to watch Ricky and then watch Joe to know whos the better fighter.

This resume crap is bullshit.

[JonOli]

You're only as good as your opponent lets you look.

[sebcfc]

No.

For me you have to look at the fighters, Joe is a much better fighter than Ricky, just watch the tapes.

[DOM5153]

Maybe in your eyes, but not in the bookies which tend to reflect general consensus.

Joe was favourite in absolutely everyone of his fights bar Lacy.

He was a clear favourite at 1/2 I think to beat that version of Hopkins - he may have been shorter.

I'm not sure if being favourite or not is entirely relevant to the discussion though.

in some ways it is, he wasnt clear favourate for the kessler fight, i remember reading a mag just before the fight and it was splitting experts 50,50

the same with hopkins

im not going with bookies favourates im talking about experts predictions

[ryanm8655]

Not for me...

Hatton is nowhere near as good a boxer as Calzaghe and Pacquiao isn't in his natural weight class...

For me the rankings are about more than just best wins.

[Betty Swollocks]

of course not.

even if Hatton beats Pac then his best wins are against a smaller guy and a 'name' fighter who was half-retired before the fight and has never fought since. At least Hopkins fought after the Calzaghe fight and showed himself to have plenty left in the tank. And Kessler is undoubtedly very good.
That's just going on best wins and Calzaghe wins on that, let alone all the other factors to assess how is the better of the 2. Calzaghe way better.

[JonOli]

in some ways it is, he wasnt clear favourate for the kessler fight, i remember reading a mag just before the fight and it was splitting experts 50,50

the same with hopkins

im not going with bookies favourates im talking about experts predictions

The bookies are the experts otherwise they would be out of business. Sadly "expert" writers are not held accountable for what they say.

Going into that fight Calzaghe was supposed to dispose of that version of Hopkins easily - he didn't. He was supposed to win that fight clearly, there is no two ways around it. Not being hard on Calzaghe but that's just the way it was. You can't go saying it was a 50/50 fight going into it when it never ever was. In hindsight it looks a lot more tricky now, but at the time Calzaghe was a fairly clear favourite (due to Hopkins age and two recent losses) - that's just the fact.

[toffeejack]

The bookies are the experts otherwise they would be out of business. Sadly "expert" writers are not held accountable for what they say.


Not true all the time though.

I won £80 when Hopkins beat Pavlik at 4/1! I couldn't believe those odds at the time.

If I wasn't so skint at that moment in time I could have won a lot more.

[Diablo]

Calzaghe was the superior fighter with the far greater talent.

I wouldnt say their records were equally padded...Calzaghe was 22-0 when he won his first world title, Hatton was 38-0. Say what u want about the WBO but Joe's defences were against a superior class of fighter than the WBU victims Ricky was fed.

Pacman would be a great win for Hatton but he need to do more imo.

[thesham01]

no, calzaghe has the better resume and better natural ability!

calzaghe can adapt to his opponent, whereas ricky has one gear and thats it!its a pretty good gear it must be said, but still only 1.....

[rydersonthestorm]

Jesus christ honestly.....


Ricky Hatton is not a better fighter than Joe Calzaghe and never will be !

He can beat Manny Pac and then JMM, but you only have to watch Ricky and then watch Joe to know whos the better fighter.

This resume crap is bullshit.
load of rubbish the guy thats beats the better fighters will be the one ranked higher.

[Mike_S]

Yes, for fighting and beating fighters more in their prime and proven at a higher level.

[Kid Lucky]

No - but I can't think of many others who've will have had as much success over in US of A in big fights.

[DOM5153]

The bookies are the experts otherwise they would be out of business. Sadly "expert" writers are not held accountable for what they say.

Going into that fight Calzaghe was supposed to dispose of that version of Hopkins easily - he didn't. He was supposed to win that fight clearly, there is no two ways around it. Not being hard on Calzaghe but that's just the way it was. You can't go saying it was a 50/50 fight going into it when it never ever was. In hindsight it looks a lot more tricky now, but at the time Calzaghe was a fairly clear favourite (due to Hopkins age and two recent losses) - that's just the fact.

bookies are not experts, you can find silly odds quite easily

[JonOli]

bookies are not experts, you can find silly odds quite easily


So why aren't we all multi millionaires?

Anyway, I'm not disputing that.

You said for the Hopkins fight, Hopkins was more or less the favourite. I simply said that that was not true - as it wasn't true. Calzaghe was very much, widly, expected to win that fight - that is the fact of the matter. It's something that would not have been the case 5 or 6 years earlier.

[yesihavearm2]

load of rubbish the guy thats beats the better fighters will be the one ranked higher.

No, what you've just said is a load of rubbish. If Hatton beats Pac he will have 2 wins (pac and tszyu) bigger than any of Floyd Mayweathers. Does that mean Hatton is better than Mayweather ??

Terrible logic

[p.Townend]

Hatton is already way above Calzaghe for me.

[yesihavearm2]

Hatton is already way above Calzaghe for me.

Thats like saying Spurs are a better team than Man Utd

[JonOli]

This resume crap is bullshit.

nah

[yesihavearm2]

nah

Amazing post, once again JonOli proving your one of the biggest idiots on this board add that to being a massive Calzaghe hater.

You wouldnt know an objective post if it slapped you in the face.

[JonOli]

Amazing post, once again JonOli proving your one of the biggest idiots on this board add that to being a massive Calzaghe hater.

You wouldnt know an objective post if it slapped you in the face.


Where are my "hate posts" for Calzaghe in this thread?

Get back to your "Chin Checking Club", in the general, son. You're obviously very upset at the result of the poll so far, so I will forgive you for your rather juvenile outburst.

[yesihavearm2]

Where are my "hate posts" for Calzaghe in this thread?

Get back to your "Chin Checking Club", in the general, son. You're obviously very upset at the result of the poll so far, so I will forgive you for your rather juvenile outburst.


Nearly everything you post has some sort of hidden agenda against Calzaghe such as this thread !

Im not even surprised at the poll results. Pac's wins against 2 human corpses has everyone fooled.

Answer me this jonoli, if Hatton beats Pac (Which I honestly think he will) will you class him as a better fighter than Floyd Mayweather because Hatton will have 2 wins (tszuy and pac) better than Floyd's and you said earlier you basing this on resume ??

[Diablo]

Calzaghe is retired..but that hasnt put an end to JonOli's hate campaign against him. Its starting to get a little bit creepy not to mention dam right boring. Move on already!

[Grant1]

Calzaghe is retired..but that hasnt put an end to JonOli's hate campaign against him. Its starting to get a little bit creepy not to mention dam right boring. Move on already!

Perhaps he's Froch :lol:

[yesihavearm2]

Calzaghe is retired..but that hasnt put an end to JonOli's hate campaign against him. Its starting to get a little bit creepy not to mention dam right boring. Move on already!

Haha

And he DENIES being a Calzaghe hater. Amazing :rofl:rofl:rofl

[toffeejack]

This could be an interesting debate if people put their obvious bias to one side.

Why don't we start by comparing they attributes as boxers, then their resumes and accomplishments?

For example as a starter:

Handspeed
Footwork
Strength
Adaptability
Jab
Speed
Body work
Inside work
Stamina
Workrate

[yesihavearm2]

This could be an interesting debate if people put their obvious bias to one side.

Why don't we start by comparing they attributes as boxers, then their resumes and accomplishments?

For example as a starter:

Handspeed
Footwork
Strength
Adaptability
Jab
Speed
Body work
Inside work
Stamina
Workrate


If we're talking p4p then



Handspeed - Calzaghe
Footwork - Calzaghe
Strength - Hatton
Adaptability - Calzaghe
Jab - Calzaghe
Speed - Calzaghe
Body work - Hatton
Inside work - Calzaghe
Stamina - Calzaghe
Workrate - Calzaghe


8-2 Joe

[UndisputedUK]

Manny would be an excellent win, but a fighter well out of his best divisions.
KT was wrestled in Manchester.

KT and MP outweigh Calzaghe's opposition on paper.

But Ricky lost against Mayweather, so he wasn't the best.

Calzaghe beat all at 168, and won against bigger names at the higher weights.

I still think Joe is the best, as he won all belts at 168lbs.

Ricky also gets points deducted for not fighting Witter and for targeting easy belts, Collazo, Maussa, Urango.

Calzaghe beat Eubank, Hopkins, Roy Jones - Big names 1990's!!!
Also undefeated Kessler and Lacy.

Ricky would have to beat Manny and another good fighter at 140 and a hard champion at 147 to draw with Calzaghe.

[9Ball]

If we're talking p4p then



Handspeed - Calzaghe
Footwork - Calzaghe
Strength - Hatton
Adaptability - Calzaghe
Jab - Calzaghe
Speed - Calzaghe
Body work - Hatton
Inside work - Calzaghe
Stamina - Calzaghe
Workrate - Calzaghe


8-2 Joe


He said 'putting bias to one side' :good

[yesihavearm2]

He said 'putting bias to one side' :good

Oh well if we're putting bias to one side then that means we're not talking p4p


So 9-1 for Calzaghe as ive switched strength over to him. He'd also have advantages in height and weight :lol:

[El Cepillo]

This could be an interesting debate if people put their obvious bias to one side.

Why don't we start by comparing they attributes as boxers, then their resumes and accomplishments?

For example as a starter:

Handspeed
Footwork
Strength
Adaptability
Jab
Speed
Body work
Inside work
Stamina
Workrate

Because all these attributes look better when you're fighting shit opposition. Resume and accomplishments are indisputable facts.

[JonOli]

Nearly everything you post has some sort of hidden agenda against Calzaghe such as this thread !

Im not even surprised at the poll results. Pac's wins against 2 human corpses has everyone fooled.

Answer me this jonoli, if Hatton beats Pac (Which I honestly think he will) will you class him as a better fighter than Floyd Mayweather because Hatton will have 2 wins (tszuy and pac) better than Floyd's and you said earlier you basing this on resume ??

I make a valid thread asking how a win over Pac will affect Hattons British ranking (when compaired to Calzaghe) and you say it has "a hidden agenda".:lol: What is the agenda? and Where is the hidden bit?

If you look into my opening post I credit Calzaghe as being currently ahead.

As far as Floyd Mayweatehr goes, he is hugely held back in ATG rankings because of his resume. He would be rated far higher if he had a better resume. He has a decisive win over Hatton anyway.

Besides, there are always exceptions to the rule: Floyd Mayweather and Roy Jones being two very recent examples - who gain a little kudos because they really were that good. Calzaghe is not in their league, imho.

Anyway this poll is not about who is the best fighter, but who will rank higher all time in the British rankings (if Hatton should beat Pac). The two don't necessarily go hand in hand.

[JonOli]

Calzaghe is retired..but that hasnt put an end to JonOli's hate campaign against him. Its starting to get a little bit creepy not to mention dam right boring. Move on already!

Oh here he is. Sees a thread not saying Calzaghe is god and as usual says its "hate" because of that.


I thought Calzaghe would win this poll, and I'm quite surprised about the result to be honest.

[GazOC]

This is a good question, I don't see why people are getting so steamed up about it. If you are looking at boxing ability then I'd say JC is the better fighter but fighters are also judged by their careers, who they won and lost to and (to a lesser extent IMHO) the titles they picked up/ defended. I think purely on records then Calzaghe and Hatton are pretty close and it depends whether you favour the unbeaten record and length of Calzghes reign or the better quality (IMHO!! don't shoot!!!) of Hattons wins should he beat Pac.

I'll get my tin hat.....;O)

[TFFP]

Better quality of Hatton's my ASS! :lol:

[GazOC]

Better quality of Hatton's my ASS! :lol:

It depends on how much weight you put on the Zoo and Pac wins. Calzaghe doesn't have much in that class...Hopkins and Kessler come closest but they're not as impressive.

[TFFP]

Hatton hasn't beaten Pac yet and won't. Infact that is going to be defeat #2.

As it is his record is not as good. Tszyu is not as good as Hopkins, never was never will be. There is nobody of the quality of Kessler, shot ass Castillo does not cut it compared to a prime undefeated fighter.

[GazOC]

Hatton hasn't beaten Pac yet and won't. Infact that is going to be defeat #2.

As it is his record is not as good. Tszyu is not as good as Hopkins, never was never will be. There is nobody of the quality of Kessler, shot ass Castillo does not cut it compared to a prime undefeated fighter.

Zoo is a better win than Hopkins IMO, Calzaghe did what Taylor managed a couple of years earlier, Hopkins was at that stage of his career when he couldn't deal with busy boxers. Kessler needs to pull his finger out if he's going to fluff up Calzaghes legacy like had been hoped.

Oh, and Hatton has beaten Pac for the purposes of this thread....:deal

[TFFP]

You didn't even speak in relation to the thread. You said purely on record Calzaghe and Hatton are close. Which they are not. You didn't even mention Pacquiao.

Tszyu was not better than Hopkins at all. He had just the same problem against "busy" fighters infact, the only difference is he had this problem his entire career and was never the class of Hopkins, never had the resume of Hopkins, and will never have the legacy of Hopkins. Infact Hopkins has far better technique to deal with "busy" boxers as he is an excellent counterpuncher and defensive fighter as well as inside, whereas Tszyu always needed time to think, and space to get leverage on his money punch.

Come again!

[GazOC]

You didn't even speak in relation to the thread. You said purely on record Calzaghe and Hatton are close. Which they are not. You didn't even mention Pacquiao.

!



WTF are you on? The question in the thread title asks "If Hatton beats Manny...", thats been the starting point for all 3 of my posts...assume Hatton beats Pac then answer the question and/ or comment.

BTW I think you'll find I've mentioned Pac in every post I've made as well.....

[TFFP]

I didn't read your post.

[GazOC]

I didn't read your post.

Well I suppose thats fair enough. :lol:

I'd personally rank Calzaghe higher even after a Pac win but I don't understand the outrage at the suggestion that some people would think differently, I don't think there would be THAT much in it. That was the main point I was trying get across.

[TFFP]

I think it is outrageous.

But then again I've been celebrating St Patricks day late at the Irish bar. Downed 8 pints of Guiness

[GazOC]

I think it is outrageous.

But then again I've been celebrating St Patricks day late at the Irish bar. Downed 8 pints of Guiness

An Irish bar in Iceland?:shock:

[D-MAC]

I think it is outrageous.

But then again I've been celebrating St Patricks day late at the Irish bar. Downed 8 pints of Guiness

Blaming the Irish:twisted::twisted::twisted:

You're worse than Frank ****** after DeGale's debut you are.

[TFFP]

Hmm there seems to be an Irish bar everywhere in the world. Certainly where I've been.

[Axl_Nose]

If Hatton beats Manny Pac he does surpass Calzaghe in the ratings, he must do, these are the facts as i see them,

Hatton and Calzaghe have fought planty of bums and nobodies during they're respective careers but Calzaghe has never had to face 2 guys that are P4P number 1 in the world. Floyd beat Hatton but there was never anybody remotely as good as Floyd in the Calzaghe division.
I personally dont see Manny Pac in the same league as Floyd Mayweather but he is PFP 1 and once again there was never anybody in Calzaghe's division remotely as good as Pac ..
Joe Calzaghe was a great fighter, dont get me wrong although for me he had the most annoying style in boxing history and the judges were fooled constantly. His powder puff, inaccurate 'flurries' against Hopkins were embarrassing for a veteran fighter, he only won that fight because Hopkins was lazy and the judges had to score Joe for coming forward all night, in reality he hit Hopkins with nothing ..
Lacy was nothing but a hype job. To some Calzaghe fans, Kessler is the greatest fighter of all time but the jury is out on him for me. Robin Reid ran Joe closer than Kessler and nobody is shouting about Reid being a superstar ..

To sum up - Hatton and Calzaghe have similarities, they both fought tons of bums and 2nd rate fighters. The legacy of both fighters hinge on victories over past they're best, former great fighters. But Ricky has the chance to go one better, to actually beat a guy that is regarded all around the world as the best fighter on the planet .. Joe never had the chance to do that, so of course if Hatton wins he goes one better than Joe ......

[Axl_Nose]

No.

For me you have to look at the fighters, Joe is a much better fighter than Ricky, just watch the tapes.

Thats were you've got this thread totally wrong, a critique on the fighters styles has got nothing to do with it .. The only question is,

Do you think Joe Calzaghe fought anybody with the kind of class that Floyd Mayweather had or Manny Pac has ??

And the answer to any rational, sane person is No .. so even if Ricky Hatton does have a loss to Floyd on his record its equalled out by the fact that Joe never had to face a guy like Floyd Mayweather .. If Ricky gets beat by Pac then to alot of people the Calzaghe or Hatton argument will be settled, because they find comfort in the fact that Hatton would have lost 2 and Joe lost 0 . Therefore to these ignorant morons who know nothing about boxing, Joe Calzaghe must be the better fighter .. It just doesnt work like that

[TFFP]

At the same time Axl, nobody deserves huge credit for simply getting whooped by elite fighters. There is nothing impressive about that, hundreds of journeymen have done it.

I know everybody somehow thinks Mayweather-Hatton was competitive, but it wasn't, he simply got beat up in there at his own game.

[Flea Man]

If you look at the other fighters they beat, Ricky also has Urango, Maussa, Malignaggi, has also been in there with top P4P fighter twice by the time he fights Pac....Joe C has Lacy, Mitchell, Brewer, Sheika, and a way shot Roy Jones, which means Joe C has beaten one of the greatest H2H fighters of all time, despite how shot he was.

I actually think they're pretty close already. Even though I went to see Calzaghe vs. Kessler (and I live in England so I like Joe C enough to make the trip) I don't rate Calzaghe as high as say Marciano, who althouh he only beat three past-it figthers late on, they were at a high enough calibre to put him near my top fifty.

I put Calzaghe in their with Pryor and Lopez, dominant fighters who never really fought the best.

If B-Hop had retired after Calzaghe and hadn't gone on to do what he's trying to achieve now, I'd rate Calzaghe even less. As it stands my top 3 British fighters are;

1) Lewis
2) Buchanan
3) Calzaghe

A win for Hatton over Pac would be monumental. They say Pac is coming up, but he has looked good carrying 147 lbs against an admittedly shot fighter, I think he will be comfortable at 140 and that Ricky should be given full credit for beating him. If he were to beat Marquez I'd give him credit too, Marquez has looked increasingly more powerful and comfortable since he moved up to 135 lbs, no reason why he'd be 'shot' if he moved up 5 lbs North (although I know Hatton is a beast of lww by fight night)

[Axl_Nose]

At the same time Axl, nobody deserves huge credit for simply getting whooped by elite fighters. There is nothing impressive about that, hundreds of journeymen have done it.

I know everybody somehow thinks Mayweather-Hatton was competitive, but it wasn't, he simply got beat up in there at his own game.

TFFP i always respect your opinions and enjoy reading your views. Your right when you say Hatton shouldnt be given any credit for being destroyed by Mayweather but at least Hatton is on the record for fighting a guy of Mayweather's class .. Calzaghe's legacy will always be picked over, there will be guys that say he's the greatest and there will be guys who pick him apart .. Im a guy that will always pick him apart because im a student of boxing. That sounds like an arrogant statement but i promise you its not. There are plenty of people with a greater knowledge of boxing than me but i like to think i have a historical knowledge of boxing in the last 100 years and that is why Joe Calzaghe doesnt make any impact for me, he's a 'Truly Modern' fighter, wereas Hatton is a guy that you can envisage, toiling away in any decade of the sport ..

Joe Calzaghe is without doubt the greatest Super MiddleWeight of all time, but the 168 division has no historical importance at all .. This division is 20 years old, it was created for one reason and one reason alone. Governing bodies and tv companies wanted to take advantage of the dying embers of Sugar Ray Leonard's career and they made plenty of money out of it ..
In a historical sense you have to either judge Calzaghe against the great 160 fighters of all time like Hagler, Monzon and Greb or you have to compare him to the great 175 fighters of all time like Foster, Moore, Charles and Tunney. Either way it becomes clear that Joe Calzaghe is in fact a King of a nothing division .. he wouldnt make 160 and he'd be destroyed by the great 175 fighters, so hes the King of the 168's. To boxing fans with any knowledge this means nothing. Maybe in 50 years the 168 division will mean something but at this point it doesnt count for anything 'historically'. Its the most meaningless division in boxing with Cruiserweight ..

Hatton on the other hand is in the mix 'historically', because Mayweather and Pacquiao will always be remembered alongside the heroes of the past ..

[DINAMITA]

Yes. He will then have 2 wins on his resume better than any on Joe's res - Tszyu and Pacquiao. And the Pac win will just be so so much better and more important than anything Joe ever done that it will give Hatton the edge...

...but Hatton won't beat Pacquiao. So Joe will stay ahead. Because he never fought the prime p4p#1s of his era (Jones 97-01, Hopkins 01-04) and so didn't incur the losses he surely would have, whereas Hatton did have the balls to risk it (Mayweather 05-07, Pacquiao 08-present).

[hit me HARDER]

It's pretty straight forward. Pound-for-pound, talent-wise, who do you class as the more skilled & dangerous fighter at the weight at the time of fighting, Pac or Kessler?

Answer that question, answer the thread.

[Axl_Nose]

If you look at the other fighters they beat, Ricky also has Urango, Maussa, Malignaggi, has also been in there with top P4P fighter twice by the time he fights Pac....Joe C has Lacy, Mitchell, Brewer, Sheika, and a way shot Roy Jones, which means Joe C has beaten one of the greatest H2H fighters of all time, despite how shot he was.

I actually think they're pretty close already. Even though I went to see Calzaghe vs. Kessler (and I live in England so I like Joe C enough to make the trip) I don't rate Calzaghe as high as say Marciano, who althouh he only beat three past-it figthers late on, they were at a high enough calibre to put him near my top fifty.

I put Calzaghe in their with Pryor and Lopez, dominant fighters who never really fought the best.

If B-Hop had retired after Calzaghe and hadn't gone on to do what he's trying to achieve now, I'd rate Calzaghe even less. As it stands my top 3 British fighters are;

1) Lewis
2) Buchanan
3) Calzaghe

A win for Hatton over Pac would be monumental. They say Pac is coming up, but he has looked good carrying 147 lbs against an admittedly shot fighter, I think he will be comfortable at 140 and that Ricky should be given full credit for beating him. If he were to beat Marquez I'd give him credit too, Marquez has looked increasingly more powerful and comfortable since he moved up to 135 lbs, no reason why he'd be 'shot' if he moved up 5 lbs North (although I know Hatton is a beast of lww by fight night)

I respect your post totally but i have to disagree with you comparing Calzaghe to Lopez and Pryor ..
Lopez for me is up there with the P4P greatest in history. He operated in a division which seldom got coverage but his talent and his boxing ability was crystal clear to see, he was absolutely sensational .. Ive never been convinced with Calzaghe because ive never been convinced with his opposition ..
Pryor is very interesting in that his career is somewhat tainted with controversy. His Arguello win was his legacy but rightly or wrongly its tainted because of his corner man, Panama Lewis .. I like Pryor but i personally think he would be beaten by Duran, Chavez and Whitaker at 135 and would be taken out by Curry, Leonard and Hearns at the higher weight ..

I also totally disagree with your ranking of Lewis ahead of Buchanan .. Lewis made his name beating past they're primes Tyson and Holyfield. He beat a few no talent contenders in Tua, Grant, Bruno, Mavrovic, Golota and Briggs but he also got sparked out by 2 bum heavyweights in McCall and Rahman .. No great heavyweight in history got knocked out by 2 guys with such limited ability and this weighs heavy on Lewis's legacy

[Axl_Nose]

It's pretty straight forward. Pound-for-pound, talent-wise, who do you class as the more skilled & dangerous fighter at the weight at the time of fighting, Pac or Kessler?

Answer that question, answer the thread.

So you agree with me, its Manny Pac all the way considering Kessler's best fight was a losing effort against Joe Calzaghe .. I cant believe the guys who shout about Kessler, sure he's a decent fighter, but what has he acheived, who has he beaten of any note ?? Nobody .. The Calzaghe fans love bringing up Kessler like he's somehow Sugar Ray Robinson but in fact he's acheived nothing of any note .. The 'Kessler' argument is so ridiculous .... That fight was a couple of years ago, if Kessler was such a world beater why arent we seeing him dealing with Pavlik, Abraham Hopkins or Dawson ...... Were the hell has this brilliant ATG fighter gone ?? To some on this forum Mikkell Kessler is the greatest fighter of all time .... For some reason i dont see it .. Lovely tattoo's though ..

[hit me HARDER]

So you agree with me, its Manny Pac all the way considering Kessler's best fight was a losing effort against Joe Calzaghe .. I cant believe the guys who shout about Kessler, sure he's a decent fighter, but what has he acheived, who has he beaten of any note ?? Nobody .. The Calzaghe fans love bringing up Kessler like he's somehow Sugar Ray Robinson but in fact he's acheived nothing of any note .. The 'Kessler' argument is so ridiculous .... That fight was a couple of years ago, if Kessler was such a world beater why arent we seeing him dealing with Pavlik, Abraham Hopkins or Dawson ...... Were the hell has this brilliant ATG fighter gone ?? To some on this forum Mikkell Kessler is the greatest fighter of all time .... For some reason i dont see it .. Lovely tattoo's though ..

Don't assume I agree with you. Give him time.

By the way, yes I do agree it's Pac all the way, but I think you've gone too far the other way. Kessler had the tools to beat Joe just not the brains. In the next few years I honestly believe Kessler will clean up.

And stop over-using full-stops, this isn't a World War II Telegram.

[Axl_Nose]

Don't assume I agree with you. Give him time.

By the way, yes I do agree it's Pac all the way, but I think you've gone too far the other way. Kessler had the tools to beat Joe just not the brains. In the next few years I honestly believe Kessler will clean up.

And stop over-using full-stops, this isn't a World War II Telegram.

So how long are you giving Kessler to clean up, its gotta be 18 months - 2 years since he lost to Calzaghe .. When in fact is he going to 'Make his big move' ?? and what division is he going to beat all comers in the way Manny Pac has done ..

Your dreaming mate .. And if Axl wants to use a million dots he can because he knows way more than you about boxing .................................................................................................... ..........

[Axl_Nose]

Don't assume I agree with you. Give him time.

By the way, yes I do agree it's Pac all the way, but I think you've gone too far the other way. Kessler had the tools to beat Joe just not the brains. In the next few years I honestly believe Kessler will clean up.

And stop over-using full-stops, this isn't a World War II Telegram.

And never advise me on what to do .. Listen buddy, whatever 'AXL' says, you get a pen and write down, you might learn something .. For you to seriously compare Kessler to Pac is quite ridiculous and shows me you know nothing .... Kessler is a nobody in a nothing division (168), 168 has always been a nothing division, a stepping stone between 160 and 175 .. If like you say Kessler is to acheive any kind of legacy, he has to do it at 175 .. let me give you some more full-stops, i know you love them .................................................................................................... .............................................

[hit me HARDER]

Your grammar, punctuation and spelling are fucking hurrendous. I literally can't take you seriously.

[Axl_Nose]

Don't assume I agree with you. Give him time.

By the way, yes I do agree it's Pac all the way, but I think you've gone too far the other way. Kessler had the tools to beat Joe just not the brains. In the next few years I honestly believe Kessler will clean up.

And stop over-using full-stops, this isn't a World War II Telegram.

Ive just been reviewing your previous posts on here and it is totally embarrassing .... You've got posts about Penis sizes, Andy Murray v Federer and all kinds of weird non-boxing crap .... I will definately be ignoring your opinions in future .. Your clearly a weirdo with no boxing credibility

[hit me HARDER]

Oh Jesus fucking Christ, my friend, Axl, you are a bona-fide retard who has just replied to a single post of mine THREE TIMES.

Do you mean DEFINITELY by the way??

[Axl_Nose]

Your grammar, punctuation and spelling are fucking hurrendous. I literally can't take you seriously.

For a guy that spells horrendous as 'Hurrendous' your a complete joke .. You belong on the 'General Forum' with the other drunks, coke-heads and children .... Im just not going to talk to you any more, i've exposed you as an idiot who knows nothing ..
There are plenty of people who i respect on here but you are an absolute loser who knows nothing about boxing and im not wasting any more time on you ..

[hit me HARDER]

Mate, do me a favour and shut your fucking grid. Through the home-schooled drivel that has been your last 8 or so posts I have misplaced a single vowel in the word HORRENDOUS.

I was originally trying to be subjective in the Hatton/Calzaghe argument but you are obviously a ball-busting retard. Get back on your fucking yellow bus.

[hit me HARDER]

Oh Jesus fucking Christ, my friend, Axl, you are a bona-fide retard who has just replied to a single post of mine THREE TIMES.

Do you mean DEFINITELY by the way??

Yeah, I think he did. RE-E-TARD, WHEN THE CROWD SAY BO! SELECTA.

[Axl_Nose]

Oh Jesus fucking Christ, my friend, Axl, you are a bona-fide retard who has just replied to a single post of mine THREE TIMES.

Do you mean DEFINITELY by the way??

My spelling has been ropey over the years, i fully admit that .. But were boxing is concerned, you know absolutely nothing and its crystal clear .. I will debate you on any fighter in history and you would be clueless because your a moron who is feels brave when he picks fights on the internet .. Let me guess ..

Your Short
Your fat
You wear glasses
Your hair is receding
You struggle with girls

Which is why you need to be a tough guy on the internet, buddy nobody is fooled. People like you are obvious a mile off .. I feel sorry for you mate but to be honest i love destroying guys like you, your an absolute moron who knows nothing and then gets uptight when someone disagrees with you .. Im laughing at you so much ................

[hit me HARDER]

Oh my fucking God you're picking on me making assumptions? Where are you son??

[Axl_Nose]

Yeah, I think he did. RE-E-TARD, WHEN THE CROWD SAY BO! SELECTA.

Not sure what that means mate ?? What is your agenda here ? To pick a fight on the internet ?
You must be so frustrated in your life, are you picked on at work ?? Do girls laugh at you ?? I can understand them, 'Axl' and everyone on here is laughing at you .... Your a total joke, not once have you argued any boxing point with me. You've had a go at my spelling which i've admitted isnt the best and you've said 'BO! SELECTA' .. I think you should be locked up in an asylum because you havent made sense once, in fact if i was in charge of this country, people like you would be put down. People like you bring nothing to the table, your just a moron with nothing to offer to anybody but i like toying with you, so please carry on embarrassing yourself ....

[hit me HARDER]

And with that, I bid you Goodnight you fucking wind-up merchant. I should have known better than to bite. You seriously are a master wind-up merchant or a genuine retard though, and judging by your English I'm swaying towards the latter.

[Axl_Nose]

Oh my fucking God you're picking on me making assumptions? Where are you son??

Can we just agree to disagree ?? Your posts arent making any sense .. I feel like your daddy right now ready to put you in line, but its clear that you have mental problems. Can we just disagree on the subject of Kessler and go our seperate ways because you clearly have deep rooted problems that i am not trained to deal with.
I'm not sure if you were abused by your father or you find sheep sexually attractive but you have serious problems you need to deal with .. When you deal with them, come back on here and we can talk about boxing. What is your problem buddy ??

[Axl_Nose]

And with that, I bid you Goodnight you fucking wind-up merchant. I should have known better than to bite. You seriously are a master wind-up merchant or a genuine retard though, and judging by your English I'm swaying towards the latter.

Hey moron, you know nothing about boxing which is why you've posted so many messages about absolutely nothing .. I 'repeat' that i will debate you on any boxing related subject, but you are a guy that can't accept it when someone disagrees with him ..
I must say that ive known some idiots on here but you are the undisputed champion of morons. I cant believe that i have answered every one of your comments ..

My spelling, grammar and punctuation isnt perfect, i fully admit that but i know way more about boxing than you and thats why you didnt debate me on the facts .. What a loser you are ....

[Axl_Nose]

I would like to apologise to any serious boxing fans for this thread descending into what its become ..
If anybody wants to know what 'Hit me Harder' is all about, check out his previous posts. This guy has got nothing to offer and is crazy. I shouldnt have bitten, i fully accept that ..

[widdy]

wow,its jeff t and mr plow all over again,come on which one is which
my guess jeff is axl
sorry 4got to mention,i recon hattons already on par with JC,i don't rate his win over hopkins as great,even after a win over pavlik,who wouldent be in the top 10 of past and present middleweights.(altough still a good win for hopkins,JC would of leathered pavlik in to retirement)
if hatton beats pacman his record would hold better wins than JC in zoo and pacman.

[brown bomber]

wow,its jeff t and mr plow all over again,come on which one is which
my guess jeff is axl
sorry 4got to mention,i recon hattons already on par with JC,i don't rate his win over hopkins as great,even after a win over pavlik,who wouldent be in the top 10 of past and present middleweights.(altough still a good win for hopkins,JC would of leathered pavlik in to retirement)
if hatton beats pacman his record would hold better wins than JC in zoo and pacman.Lol.... No chance i'd argue with Hit Me Harder have to say can't really see where the argument stems from. Axls points are fair enough and I don't think HMH was disagreeing with him... Strange one.

[brown bomber]

IMO Pavlik is a over-rated hype job who beat a weight drained and over-rated champion in Jermain Taylor who had lost to already to Hopkins and Winky. Further to this I don't think Calzaghe won the Hopkins fight. I don't think Kessler is anything special in p4p terms. Hattons already beaten a fighter superior to Lacy in Urango, is Kessler better then Tszyu? No chance. Is Hopkins better then Tszyu? Debatable. Vis-a-vis he wants to be the man, but he is not the man.... I will destroy him.

[BremnerBomber]

Hatton clearly.......

Lets break it down

Top 10 p4p - Tyszu(3) Castillo(8Manny(1)........ PBF(1) loss

Title Holders- Urango ,Tyszu, Maussa, Collazo, Maglinaggi

Former Belt holders- Castillo, Juan Lazcano,

Thats 4 p4p fighters faced and 5 title holders in FOUR years.


Joe Calzhage

Top 10 p4p- B.Hopkins not sure where he was placed i'll say (5)

Title Holders- Jeff Lacy, Kessler

Former champs- Eubank, Reid, Woodhall, Jones Jr


Hatton beats Joe's resume in EVERY department ...... he has not faced the talent Hatton has .... and his biggest win (Tyszu) was alot more decsisive than a dodgy SD against B-hop

[BremnerBomber]

And Hatton still has about 2 years left

If he beats Manny....... Then faces the winner of Holt v Bradley for the belts.....then he is wayyyy past Joe in British ATG terms

[brown bomber]

Calzaghes recent aclaim actually helps Hattons case coz surely if a guy that doesn't punch properly who just wins a load of 80-20 fight gets in.... he's got to too.

[yesihavearm2]

And Hatton still has about 2 years left

If he beats Manny....... Then faces the winner of Holt v Bradley for the belts.....then he is wayyyy past Joe in British ATG terms


Despite being an inferior fighter ?

Hatton will have a better resume than Floyd Mayweather if he beats Pac, does that mean he's a better fighter ?


Jesus. Honestly, I should have expected this.

[BremnerBomber]

Despite being an inferior fighter ?

Hatton will have a better resume than Floyd Mayweather if he beats Pac, does that mean he's a better fighter ?


Jesus. Honestly, I should have expected this.


Sport is about what you accomplish not what your pontential was.

Boxing is simple...... you have two guys in a ring and one has to beat the other.... and your legacy is determined on who you beat. If the were talking about just talent then you could put Naz at the top of the British ATG list.

Joe may have been the more talented BOXER.... but I rate Hatton as a better fighter, who would have been competative in any era of boxing.... I really couldn't say the same about Joe.

Its all subjective..... but I rate actual accomplishments over ifs and buts

[GazOC]

Despite being an inferior fighter ?

Hatton will have a better resume than Floyd Mayweather if he beats Pac, does that mean he's a better fighter ?


Jesus. Honestly, I should have expected this.

Why would Hatton have a better record than Mayweather if he beats Pac?

Like it or not, record and achievements do play a major part when ranking fighters. Otherwise we'd be debating Howard Davis' place in history....

[Rebel-INS]

Why would Hatton have a better record than Mayweather if he beats Pac?

Like it or not, record and achievements do play a major part when ranking fighters. Otherwise we'd be debating Howard Davis' place in history....

He wouldn't, he'd have a win over Pac and wins over a shot to fuck Castillo and an ancient Tszyu.

[Grievesy]

I have them pretty close at the moment anyway, based on resume, achievements etc. I think their competition is pretty similar, and should Hatton beat Manny Pacquiao I'd rate him higher than Calzaghe. Manny is better than anyone Calzaghe has on his resume, aswell as Hatton having Tzsyu.

It's an if at the moment anyway, even though I reckon Hatton beats Manny.

[GazOC]

He wouldn't, he'd have a win over Pac and wins over a shot to fuck Castillo and an ancient Tszyu.


Manny Pac the natural Flyweight who was weight drained coming down from 147?

[JonOli]

Hatton is currently markable outsider at over 2/1 to win, with a Manny a easily clear favourite at just below 1/2 with most bookies.

To be honest I was quite surprised by those odds. I'd have thought it a bit closer.