Jack Johnson .Vs. Lennox Lewis

[la-califa]

Who would win this Heavyweight fight? 15 rounds. Both had good boxing ability & power.

[mr. magoo]

Lennox Lewis

[McGrain]

Lennox Lewis would win on points in a fight that would make you wish, not only that you hadn't paid the pay per view, but that you had put out your eyes.

[Holmes' Jab]

Lewis: UD.

[sugar71]

Who would win this Heavyweight fight? 15 rounds. Both had good boxing ability & power.

I tremendously respect what Johnson achieved ,but I simply have a hard time comparing Champs of Boxings formative years to those of the modern era. In a way it is not fair to neither. (Hard enough predicting outcomes of contemporary fights let alone completely different eras)

But I will go with Lewis in a boring decision.

[Seamus]

Johnson had nowhere near the power of Lewis. Lennox would dismantle him in 2 or 3 rounds. And I'm being generous to the Galveston Giant.

[round15]

Johnson had nowhere near the power of Lewis. Lennox would dismantle him in 2 or 3 rounds. And I'm being generous to the Galveston Giant.

Lennox had nowhere near the defensive skills of Jack Johnson. Senior boxing enthusiasts and trainers I've spoken to universally hail Johnson as the greatest of all time, ahead of Ali, Louis, Marciano and Dempsey.

Jack Johnson, well into his forties would spar with the very best fighters of all weight classes at Stillman's gym, and whup them all in the process.

I think people underestimate Jack Johnson and his legacy, probably due to the advancement of modern genetics and technology.

I see Jack Johnson out-boxing Lewis over 15 rounds, with the possibility of stopping him late.

[MaliSlamusrex]

Lewis would win. But i am sure Johnson would be a completely different fighter and athlete if he fought now.

[janitor]

I think I might pick Johnson actualy.

Johnson at his peak was about the same size as the heavyweight version of Evander Holyfield and probably as strong.

He was much slicker and more subtle not to mention faster.

There are a lot of unknown variables here, but Johnson would be a far better technician than anybody Lewis had sharede a ring with and he had a proven track record against much larger fighters including good boxers, jabbers and movers.

Bottom line is that nobody is having an easy time with Johnson.

[ChrisPontius]

Under modern rules: Lewis, easily. Under Johnson's rules? No idea.

[Seamus]

Lennox had nowhere near the defensive skills of Jack Johnson. Senior boxing enthusiasts and trainers I've spoken to universally hail Johnson as the greatest of all time, ahead of Ali, Louis, Marciano and Dempsey.

Those were defensive skills suited to the crude era brawlers he engaged. They would be hopelessly outdated against someone of Lewis' pedigree.

Jack Johnson, well into his forties would spar with the very best fighters of all weight classes at Stillman's gym, and whup them all in the process.

Then why did he not win a single significant fight after the Willard loss?

I think people underestimate Jack Johnson and his legacy, probably due to the advancement of modern genetics and technology.

I see Jack Johnson out-boxing Lewis over 15 rounds, with the possibility of stopping him late.

Genetics have not advanced one bit in the 100+ years since Johnson's birth. That is ludicrous. Nutrition, health care and training have advanced. I see Johnson as vastly overrated even though his record is full of holes and needs a litany of excuses to support sundry underwhelming performances.

[Manassa Mauler]

Well its clear to see that the sport of Boxing has evolved.. taking Jack Johnson from his era and sticking him in with a guy like Lennox Lewis would only result in Lewis winning.

But if you were to reimagine a guy of Johnsons ability and give him all of the benefits that todays athletes have and I'm sure this fight would be closer then many think. But based on a fight between the two its easy to see that Johnsons style was very primative and although he is a favourite of mine I must say that I'd say Lewis would stop Johnson.

[Mendoza]

Who would win this Heavyweight fight? 15 rounds. Both had good boxing ability & power.

Lewis wins via TKO. If Lennox wants to end it early I think he can.

[Holmes' Jab]

No-one beats Johnson easily IMO.

[mrbassie]

depends when it happens. boxing was a completely different game in their respective eras, practically a different sport.

[Seamus]

No-one beats Johnson easily IMO.

I know of a certain Light Heavyweight who did.

[PowerPuncher]

Give Johnson the modern advantages nutrition/supplements/training/steroids and it makes it an interesting fight. Johnson probably plays a spoiler role

[guilalah]

Time-machined together I'd favor Lewis a little.

Coming along at the same time, I'd take Johnson, but not by a lot.

[mcvey]

I know of a certain Light Heavyweight who did.
If you are thinking of Choynsky he gave 52 lbs to Jim Jeffries and held him to a 20rds draw. So not too shabby .

[SuzieQ49]

Jack Johnson was only 180lb when he fought chonyski, he wasnt the 200lb chizzled monster he later became.

[Privatejoker]

Johnson had more natural ability than every heavyweight that ever lived pre-WWII.

Yes, that includes Joe Louis in terms of natural ability.

[Seamus]

Johnson had more natural ability than every heavyweight that ever lived pre-WWII.

Yes, that includes Joe Louis in terms of natural ability.

This is a laugher. He does possess the best PR of any heavyweight ever. How exactly you measure "natural ability" I do not know. However, I do know he under-performed often and once champ avoided the better opponents until meeting Willard, after which he essentially became a sideshow attraction battling bums and never was palookas.

[mcvey]

This is a laugher. He does possess the best PR of any heavyweight ever. How exactly you measure "natural ability" I do not know. However, I do know he under-performed often and once champ avoided the better opponents until meeting Willard, after which he essentially became a sideshow attraction battling bums and never was palookas.

I guess all those experts who saw him fight must be wrong ,thanks for coming on here and educating us,pity Nat Fleischer's gone you could have put him straight :oops:

[he grant]

To call Johnson's style primative is clearly showing a lack of knowledge ... the man was possibly the greatest defensive fighter of all time ... he clearly showed he had no problem landing hard and often against the giant Willard as a 37 year old man ... I see him being a very tough match up for Lennox ...

[round15]

Those were defensive skills suited to the crude era brawlers he engaged. They would be hopelessly outdated against someone of Lewis' pedigree.



Then why did he not win a single significant fight after the Willard loss?



Genetics have not advanced one bit in the 100+ years since Johnson's birth. That is ludicrous. Nutrition, health care and training have advanced. I see Johnson as vastly overrated even though his record is full of holes and needs a litany of excuses to support sundry underwhelming performances.

First of all, how would Johnson's defensive skills be outdated? Please explain because all the trainers and boxing enthusiasts that I've talked to have clearly said Johnson was better defensively than the majority of the greatests heavyweights, including Ali and Larry Holmes. He was a master of the art of feinting, shoulder slipping, and is arguably the greatest counterpunching heavyweight of all time. You're talking about Johnson as if he had no footwork, which is absurd.

You know absolutely nothing about medicine, nutrition, health care, and sports related sciences if you say genetics haven't advanced one bit in 100+ years. No disrespect to you, but that type of statement coming from you Seamus makes me wonder if you've paid attention to the evolution of sport EVER. Atheletes today are bigger, faster and stronger, and Jack Johnson was way ahead of his time as an overall fighter. Whether atheletes are smarter today is up for debate, but even the greatest Ali, said Johnson was the smartest heavyweight fighter and patterned his ring skills after him.

Johnson was one of the fastest heavyweight champions ever, on foot and with his fists, so I don't understand how you can underrate him so severely. Johnson fought plenty of fights after losing to Willard, and you should know that he was denied a title shot by Dempsey for obvious race reasons of the time. Johnson apparently had challenged Dempsey at 38 years old and was denied. In fact, the issue of race is a huge factor that coincides with Johnson career. I think you should seriously look at his record after the Willard loss before saying the man never won another fight? That is plain ignorance. Quality of fights is a different story, but the man didn't retire and dissappear after Willard.

There's a reason why everyone in attendance who regularly watched the sparring at the now extinct Stillman's boxing gym, would stop in total silence when Jack Johnson walked into the gym. You're disrespecting one of the greatest heavyweight boxers ever.

[round15]

This is a laugher. He does possess the best PR of any heavyweight ever. How exactly you measure "natural ability" I do not know. However, I do know he under-performed often and once champ avoided the better opponents until meeting Willard, after which he essentially became a sideshow attraction battling bums and never was palookas.


Johnson was avoided just as bad, if not worse than how Archie Moore was avoided at light heavyweight. Many will consider his greatest fights before he won the heavyweight title. Is he wrong for avoiding contenders in his title reign? Absolutely. Worse is the fact that he and other black contenders were denied the opportunity to fight for the title. I'm not condoning Johnson for avoiding the black contenders, but I don't recall anyone after Sullivan and Paddy Ryan giving Johnson or any other black contender a title shot. The brave Canadian Noah Brusso "Tommy Burns" finally gave him a shot and he got his butt whupped.

[djanders]

I could see this one going to a split decision. If I had to bet, I would probably bet on Lennox Lewis, but I would not be too surprised if Jack Johnson won.

[Seamus]

I guess all those experts who saw him fight must be wrong ,thanks for coming on here and educating us,pity Nat Fleischer's gone you could have put him straight :oops:

Long in the tooth oldtimers who tell tall tales interest me little. We all know that we glorify those fighters who were in their prime when WE WERE IN OUR PRIME. We associate our relative excellence to theirs. It's purely psychological. However, Johnson's resume is not that impressive, his title reign lacking and on film he would look foolish in a modern ring.

I'm sorry. I used to drink the Kool-Aid regarding this guy, but it really does not play out to the objective eye.

[Seamus]

Fout medicine, nutrition, health care, and sports related sciences if you say genetics haven't advanced one bit in 100+ years. No disrespect to you, but that type of statement coming from you Seamus makes me wonder if you've paid attention to the evolution of sport EVER.

My premed degree and masters of science would argue with you. Gene pools do not change in matters of decades. This is even ridiculous to argue.

[mcvey]

Long in the tooth oldtimers who tell tall tales interest me little. We all know that we glorify those fighters who were in their prime when WE WERE IN OUR PRIME. We associate our relative excellence to theirs. It's purely psychological. However, Johnson's resume is not that impressive, his title reign lacking and on film he would look foolish in a modern ring.

I'm sorry. I used to drink the Kool-Aid regarding this guy, but it really does not play out to the objective eye.

My favourite is Dempsey but I didnt see him when I was in my prime:lol:
You make assumptions about others .Fleischer and other experts had the advantage of seeing all these guys,EVERY ONE of the historians agreed Johnson was a defensive genius.Boxers who sparred with Johnson concur he was extremely clever.Tom Sharkey, who hated Johnson ,said he was the greatest defensive heavyweight he ever saw ,and he sparred with Johnson and fought Jim Corbett.Corbett ,who also heartily loathed Johnson ,told Fleischer that Johnson was the cleverest big man he ever saw.Ted Kid Lewis sparred with an aging Johnson and said" I couldnt lay a glove on him".
Seems all the historians ,writers , and fighters suffer from a psycological blindness, they must have all hit their prime together.:patsch

[janitor]

Long in the tooth oldtimers who tell tall tales interest me little. We all know that we glorify those fighters who were in their prime when WE WERE IN OUR PRIME. We associate our relative excellence to theirs. It's purely psychological. However, Johnson's resume is not that impressive, his title reign lacking and on film he would look foolish in a modern ring.

I'm sorry. I used to drink the Kool-Aid regarding this guy, but it really does not play out to the objective eye.

Johnson is prety unique as a defensive heavyweight. There has never been another as adept at avoiding getting hit or even similar stylisticaly. To find paralels you really have to go to a lower weight class.

He is like Louis in that there was never a heavyweight anything like him before or since. There have been three Jack Dempseys in the history of gloved boxing but Johnson and Louis are stand alone events.

When Jack Johnson fought Al Kaufman who was the leading white challenger at the time Kaufman landed two clean shots on him in the duration of ten rounds.

That is actualy less shots than Gatti landed on Mayweather!!!

You dont shut out a world class fioghter however limited in this manner without having exceptional defensive skills. I knew that Joe Calzaghe was for real after theLacey fight not because I thought that Lacey was a particularly good fighter but because I knew that he was world class and should have been able to chieve something on that basis alone.

Gatti as you know was a limited fighter but it was calculated by ring magazine that he would have landed more punches on Mayweather if he had thrown them at random than if he actualy aimed them!

By the same token Johnsons defensive prowes were such that a man off the street would have more chance of hitting him by not knowing what he was doing than a limited fighter would by aiming his punches.

[Flea Man]

Lewis, by stoppage.

[Fedor Em]

Lewis would try to establish his jab against Jack Johnson who was a superb defensive fighter and then Jack would force Lennox to try and open up more. The jab, followed by the right hand of Lewis would find its mark more often later in the fight and I think LL would win a decision based on the cleaner punches, and his size. If it is over more than 15 rounds though I would have to say Johnson by late round stoppage. He was tested in that aspect and Lewis was not.

[mcvey]

Johnson is prety unique as a defensive heavyweight. There has never been another as adept at avoiding getting hit or even similar stylisticaly. To find paralels you really have to go to a lower weight class.

He is like Louis in that there was never a heavyweight anything like him before or since. There have been three Jack Dempseys in the history of gloved boxing but Johnson and Louis are stand alone events.

When Jack Johnson fought Al Kaufman who was the leading white challenger at the time Kaufman landed two clean shots on him in the duration of ten rounds.

That is actualy less shots than Gatti landed on Mayweather!!!

You dont shut out a world class fioghter however limited in this manner without having exceptional defensive skills. I knew that Joe Calzaghe was for real after theLacey fight not because I thought that Lacey was a particularly good fighter but because I knew that he was world class and should have been able to chieve something on that basis alone.

Gatti as you know was a limited fighter but it was calculated by ring magazine that he would have landed more punches on Mayweather if he had thrown them at random than if he actualy aimed them!

By the same token Johnsons defensive prowes were such that a man off the street would have more chance of hitting him by not knowing what he was doing than a limited fighter would by aiming his punches.

As to the man in the street theory even as an old guy Johnson would give "civilians " chances to hit him ,while he swayed ,parried and blocked their shots without throwing punches himself.Johnson did have a batlle with a gang of thugs in London when he was here as Champion , he kod 4 of them ,the other one ran away.

[downgoesfrazier]

under old rules, jonhson and easy. jonhson had much better stamina,he was faster too, under modern rules i can see both ways by decision.

[Ted Spoon]

To call Johnson's style primative is clearly showing a lack of knowledge ... the man was possibly the greatest defensive fighter of all time ... he clearly showed he had no problem landing hard and often against the giant Willard as a 37 year old man ... I see him being a very tough match up for Lennox ...

Yes, that footage is very telling. Though in poor shape by his usual standards, Johnson show's a good capacity to go on the attack with hard hooks and crosses - these intentions he masks with a little defensive trickery before exploding out of his stance.

Unfortunately for Johnson, if Willard was any one thing, he was durable. Many a good pugilist would have wilted long before those extended combinations began to fill his arms with lead.

[PowerPuncher]

This really isn't fair, you can only be the best in your own time but Lennox hammers him

[Boilermaker]

This really isn't fair, you can only be the best in your own time but Lennox hammers him
How does Lennox break Johnson's grip in the clinch to land a clean punch? Or are you going to change the rules to modern rules that suit Lennox?

Lennox is very, very strong. I presume stronger than Johnson (though i am not certain), but he does not know how to protect himself in close in a clinch. It isnt really fair, Johnson will land at will.

This really isnt fair, Lennox hasnt competed with full rules, you can only be the best of your time.

[McGrain]

Lennox is very, very strong. I presume stronger than Johnson (though i am not certain), but he does not know how to protect himself in close in a clinch. .

Lennox is as good at protecting himself in the clinch as any other HW i've ever seen box. It is astonishing to me that you are even saying this.

[McGrain]

J
When Jack Johnson fought Al Kaufman who was the leading white challenger at the time Kaufman landed two clean shots on him in the duration of ten rounds.

How did he manage to win two rounds landing only two punches?

EDIT: Actually I remember him winning only one round in what i've read. But he landed more than two punches, certainly.

[red cobra]

LL wins a decision by virtue of excessive respect and caution....undue respect and caution, because I suspect that he was capable of stopping Lil' Artha.

[Boilermaker]

Lennox is as good at protecting himself in the clinch as any other HW i've ever seen box. It is astonishing to me that you are even saying this.

Lennox is at his very best when he fights from the outside and lands straight punches, there is no doubt about this. Jack is ultra cautious at the best of times, against Lennox he will be doubly cautious for obvious reasons.

This fight will be fought up very close and in the clinches. I just watched Golota v Lewis. Just one clinch in the fight, and Lewis didnt really seem to do to well, though it really didnt matter in the end. Rnund 1 of the Lewis Vitali, and it seems that Lewis' idea in the clinch is to loop his left hand around the back of Vitali's head and keep his right hand free. Note that the right hand is very wide of the body, and in no postion to protect Lewis from any type of strike. Rnd 2 and it is clear that this left hand clinch is Lewis only method of clinching. He clinches by pulling down with his left on the head and even then, he didnt even try to clinch when he was quite badly hurt. And note also that he doesnt tuck his chin in in that clinch, so isnt really defending himself at all in the clinch. Rnd 3 and it is quite clear that in this fight at least, Lewis clinches only with his left hand, and he likes to do so with his left on the outside, so he can fire a right. by the way, i forgot just what an enjoyable fight this is, but neither really has any concept of defence or clinching. So Tell me, which film should i watch to see Lewis demonstrate just how skilled lewis is at clinching, like you say.

Johnson has no peers in the clinch. Watch him. His head is tucked in, in perfect position so he cant be hit. His arms are always on the inside (where Lewis lets you get) so he can actualy grab the other fighter arms, to wear them down, and stop them from hitting you cleanly. There is no way, Lennox will fire off a clean shot with that right of his. But Johnson, with his hands on the inside will land his left at will (Lewis doesnt even use his right to protect himself and this can be then followed with the right. STylistically, other than Lennox' obvious size, this is an easy fight for johnson.

Now as i said earlier, it isnt really fair to lennox, because he has never had to protect himself in the clinch. And looking at his gloves, it looks near impossible to open the hand and grab the arms as is needed in a clinch because the gloves are so big, and also it seems they are shaped a little different, and i doubt the massive hand wraps would help either.

[Seamus]

Lewis under any rules at any time. As strong as Johnson was reputed to be in his day, Lewis is extremely strong even by today's standards. That clinching, mauling and uppercutting Jack found so effective versus lilly-white middleweights wouldn't play well against Lewis.

[mcvey]

Lewis under any rules at any time. As strong as Johnson was reputed to be in his day, Lewis is extremely strong even by today's standards. That clinching, mauling and uppercutting Jack found so effective versus lilly-white middleweights wouldn't play well against Lewis.
Of all the Heavy Champs, I think Lewis is probably the one who would pose the most problems for the most Champions ,if you get my clumsily worded assessment.He is huge strong, powerful, and can really hit,good boxing ability ,footwork is a bit lumpen but he is a big guy,
He is also excessively cautious at times.
I can't forget Lewis against Holyfield , who was aging ,I think Lennox should have won very decisively both times,and though there is no doubt in my mind he did win both fights, he left some doubt about the second fight in a few viewers heads.
This is a toughie to predict for me, I would like to hear more arguments first.

[Cael]

First of all, how would Johnson's defensive skills be outdated? Please explain because all the trainers and boxing enthusiasts that I've talked to have clearly said Johnson was better defensively than the majority of the greatests heavyweights, including Ali and Larry Holmes. He was a master of the art of feinting, shoulder slipping, and is arguably the greatest counterpunching heavyweight of all time. You're talking about Johnson as if he had no footwork, which is absurd.

You know absolutely nothing about medicine, nutrition, health care, and sports related sciences if you say genetics haven't advanced one bit in 100+ years. No disrespect to you, but that type of statement coming from you Seamus makes me wonder if you've paid attention to the evolution of sport EVER. Atheletes today are bigger, faster and stronger, and Jack Johnson was way ahead of his time as an overall fighter. Whether atheletes are smarter today is up for debate, but even the greatest Ali, said Johnson was the smartest heavyweight fighter and patterned his ring skills after him.

Johnson was one of the fastest heavyweight champions ever, on foot and with his fists, so I don't understand how you can underrate him so severely. Johnson fought plenty of fights after losing to Willard, and you should know that he was denied a title shot by Dempsey for obvious race reasons of the time. Johnson apparently had challenged Dempsey at 38 years old and was denied. In fact, the issue of race is a huge factor that coincides with Johnson career. I think you should seriously look at his record after the Willard loss before saying the man never won another fight? That is plain ignorance. Quality of fights is a different story, but the man didn't retire and dissappear after Willard.

There's a reason why everyone in attendance who regularly watched the sparring at the now extinct Stillman's boxing gym, would stop in total silence when Jack Johnson walked into the gym. You're disrespecting one of the greatest heavyweight boxers ever.


Good Lord how much ignorance.....:rofl:rofl:rofl:-(


[Only registered and activated users can see links]
...look at his sparring partner :lol::lol:.
Who the hell fights like that nowadays?:lol:...not even drunk brawlers in bar fights and certainly not Lennox
His defense would be absolutely obsolete and useless against modern giants with great skills like the K bothers or Lennox.
To say that JJ would lose very badly against a modern HW champion is an understatement.

If you think that his defense would be as effective in the 2000's as it was 100years earlier, then you should be ashamed of yourself and never show your face around here anymore because that's absolutely laughable.

Most of the contenders back then weren't even professional boxers..had boxing as a second job. they were heavy smokers, didn't train properly and fought 3-4 times a month.


Good thing they didn't gave the old man a title shot against Dempsey.
the Manassa Mauler would had ended up in jail with murder charges..and
by the way when Dempsey won the title, in 1919, Johnson was 41, not 38.

[mcvey]

Good Lord how much ignorance.....:rofl:rofl:rofl:-(


[Only registered and activated users can see links]
...look at his sparring partner :lol::lol:.
Who the hell fights like that nowadays?:lol:...not even drunk brawlers in bar fights and certainly not Lennox
His defense would be absolutely obsolete and useless against modern giants with great skills like the K bothers or Lennox.
To say that JJ would lose very badly against a modern HW champion is an understatement.

If you think that his defense would be as effective in the 2000's as it was 100years earlier, then you should be ashamed of yourself and never show your face around here anymore because that's absolutely laughable.

Most of the contenders back then weren't even professional boxers..had boxing as a second job. they were heavy smokers, didn't train properly and fought 3-4 times a month.


Good thing they didn't gave the old man a title shot against Dempsey.
the Manassa Mauler would had ended up in jail with murder charges..and
by the way when Dempsey won the title, in 1919, Johnson was 41, not 38.

Modern trainers such as Eddie Futch, rated Johnson no2 at heavyweight was he ignorant?