Julio Cesar Chavez vs. Carlos Ortiz

[Luigi1985]

Who wins at 135 lbs and why?

[sweet_scientist]

So little separates these two. I think perhaps Chavez's more precise body attack slows Carlos Ortiz down in the closing stages, allowing Chavez to nab the closing round to pull ahead, 8-7 or so. Wouldn't be surprised with a draw or two in a trilogy between them though.

[unitas]

chavez by UD. just too strong, too hard punching. ortiz would stay in there, but he´d be busted up in the end.

[Manassa]

chavez by UD. just too strong, too hard punching. ortiz would stay in there, but he´d be busted up in the end.

You do know Ortiz was a massive lightweight? He was a light welterweight champion before he moved down; and he dealt with punchers just as vicious as Chavez. He was never concussed in his entire professional career. There is nothing - nothing - that should lead us to think Ortiz would be ground down by Chavez.

Aside from physicalities, Ortiz was far too clever to let himself get battered against the ropes. He'd be playing a clever game of stick n' move - except this matador wouldn't have to rely on dancing and staying out of trouble, he could stand his ground and hold his own with Chavez if need be. If anything, I would even say Ortiz was the stronger and harder hitting of the two!

[bumdujour]

You do know Ortiz was a massive lightweight? He was a light welterweight champion before he moved down; and he dealt with punchers just as vicious as Chavez. He was never concussed in his entire professional career. There is nothing - nothing - that should lead us to think Ortiz would be ground down by Chavez.

Aside from physicalities, Ortiz was far too clever to let himself get battered against the ropes. He'd be playing a clever game of stick n' move - except this matador wouldn't have to rely on dancing and staying out of trouble, he could stand his ground and hold his own with Chavez if need be. If anything, I would even say Ortiz was the stronger and harder hitting of the two!

well i saw ortiz several times, but while he was more versatile than chavez (more adaptable to different styles), i just cant see him dealing with chavez style.
for chavez, he outpunched the sluggers and ground down the runner/boxers.
the only way ortiz can win this is by outboxing chavez....and he didnt have the speed to do it.

chavez would make him fight his fight on the inside. there, chavez heavier hands and higher punchrate would allow him to dominate.

[Manassa]

Crazy. Ortiz could outbox Chavez - it's not like Chavez piles on the pressure in the same suffocating way as Henry Armstrong. Ortiz would have room to work, and he would take advantage of that. He was a clever fighter with all the physical tools to match Chavez.

But who says Ortiz has to box? From what I can see, having studied lots of footage of both fighters; Ortiz was the sharper hitter.

[bumdujour]

Crazy. Ortiz could outbox Chavez - it's not like Chavez piles on the pressure in the same suffocating way as Henry Armstrong. Ortiz would have room to work, and he would take advantage of that. He was a clever fighter with all the physical tools to match Chavez.

But who says Ortiz has to box? From what I can see, having studied lots of footage of both fighters; Ortiz was the sharper hitter.


maybe not like armstrong.........but too much for ortiz.

at lightweight only a defensive wizard like whitaker would have outboxed chavez.
but in regards to defensive skills, ortiz was no whitaker.

chavez forces him in the trenches and beats him up. end of story.

[Manassa]

maybe not like armstrong.........but too much for ortiz.

at lightweight only a defensive wizard like whitaker would have outboxed chavez.
but in regards to defensive skills, ortiz was no whitaker.

chavez forces him in the trenches and beats him up. end of story.

No, it's not the end of the story at all. Why do you think Ortiz has to imitate Whitaker and follow his blueprint? He was intelligent enough to box his own way and invent a new method of beating Chavez. He'd win by simply being better on the outside; at close quarters it would be even, but every time the two part, Ortiz would start firing those jabs, shifting back and cranking up those right hands. Chavez would eventually get inside every time but he'd have conceded points on the way in.

And there is no such thing as drowning Ortiz late in a fight. His own workrate was solid, and he fought the full fifteen round distance many a time. He also carried his power very well, knocking out several opponents after the tenth round.

[unitas]

No, it's not the end of the story at all. Why do you think Ortiz has to imitate Whitaker and follow his blueprint? He was intelligent enough to box his own way and invent a new method of beating Chavez. He'd win by simply being better on the outside; at close quarters it would be even, but every time the two part, Ortiz would start firing those jabs, shifting back and cranking up those right hands. Chavez would eventually get inside every time but he'd have conceded points on the way in.

And there is no such thing as drowning Ortiz late in a fight. His own workrate was solid, and he fought the full fifteen round distance many a time. He also carried his power very well, knocking out several opponents after the tenth round.

invent his own way at beating chavez......:lol: :lol: :lol:

ortiz is better on the outside.........Against chavez there is no outside!!

either run, move doge and dive, or stay on the inside and war.

and ortiz cant beat chavez in close.

[Manassa]

invent his own way at beating chavez......:lol: :lol: :lol:

ortiz is better on the outside.........Against chavez there is no outside!!

either run, move doge and dive, or stay on the inside and war.

and ortiz cant beat chavez in close.

From where this idea of a fanatical, rabid, Armstrong-esque Chavez came from, I have no idea. But it's false.

[bumdujour]

No, it's not the end of the story at all. Why do you think Ortiz has to imitate Whitaker and follow his blueprint? He was intelligent enough to box his own way and invent a new method of beating Chavez. He'd win by simply being better on the outside; at close quarters it would be even, but every time the two part, Ortiz would start firing those jabs, shifting back and cranking up those right hands. Chavez would eventually get inside every time but he'd have conceded points on the way in.

And there is no such thing as drowning Ortiz late in a fight. His own workrate was solid, and he fought the full fifteen round distance many a time. He also carried his power very well, knocking out several opponents after the tenth round.

you are dreaming! chavez in his prime was not easy to catch coming in.

he´d slip ortiz shots and put his head on his chest.

and on the inside it NOT EVEN!!!

chavez hit harder, had the better workrate.......simply the better inside fighter. ortiz may survive due to his durablility, but he´d take a beating.

[unitas]

From where this idea of a fanatical, rabid, Armstrong-esque Chavez came from, I have no idea. But it's false.

watch the camacho fight. and that wasnt even prime chavez.

[unitas]

Not neccessarily true, I've seen plenty of fights(such as Ramirez) where Chavez wasn't directly pressing the action, but rather opting to box and get in close quarters in the middle of the ring. Against someone like Ortiz who has his own size, power, and strength for Chavez to contend with, it will be a problem simply grinding him down and pushing him against the ropes. While I believe Chavez may have been better on the inside, he would have problems getting him in a tight spot such as against the ropes due to Ortiz's strength and ring generalship of his own.

I think Ortiz outboxes him on the outside for sure, and has enough size, strength, and skill on the inside to cope, but for the most part, the skill, power, and ring generalship to keep the fight in the middle of the ring for the greater part of the fight. Ortiz by UD.

not even rosario had the power to keep the fight on the outside.:nono

[Manassa]

watch the camacho fight. and that wasnt even prime chavez.

I've seen it. What?

[unitas]

yeah, but remember that chavez walked right through rosarios shots!

so he could do the same vs ortiz.

and forget the ramirez fight. he was chavez friend. he didnt want to punish him.

[unitas]

I've seen it. What?

well, then you know that against chavez, there is NO outside.

[Manassa]

well, then you know that against chavez, there is NO outside.

So it doesn't matter to you that there is a massive style difference between Ortiz and Camacho?

... Some analyst you are.

[Mantequilla]

Chavez would hardly have a field day on the inside anyway.

Ortiz was a huge lightweight and equally adept inside or out.

[Manassa]

Chavez would hardly have a field day on the inside anyway.

Ortiz was a huge lightweight and equally adept inside or out.

Yes. The notion that Chavez would pummel Ortiz mercilessly on the inside is ridiculous.

[sweet_scientist]

Ortiz was stronger than Rosario. Rosario punched harder, but once Chavez took his shofts, he softened him up quite easily with his own artillery. That wouldn't happen to Ortiz. When guys were really strong, Chavez could not really break them down. See the Laporte and Ramirez fights for example. Chavez would not find it easy to break Ortiz down and punish him, it will be a keenly contested fight all the way. If anyone gets a little tired though, I think it will be Ortiz just enough to allow Chavez to get his nose in front and edge it right at the end. At the end of the day we have seen a prime -ish Ortiz fade at the end of a fight (Laguna I - yes I know Ortiz wasn't in great shape for it, plus he had certain other uninspiring efforts, losing to Lane, Busso, Cruz) Chavez never did near his prime.

[Luigi1985]

I strongly disagree with posters who say indirectly that Chavez would win this easily, that only marks my thaughts that the 80s fighters are very overrated in general here because most of us were kids back there and the likes of Hagler, Tyson, Chavez, etc. were all our role models...

back to topic, fighters like Rosario or Ramirez had nice padded KO- records (that they were brutal punchers is clear, no doubt there), but you can´t just look at the KO-%, Ortiz for example beat HOF´s like Sugar Ramos, Flash Elorde, Battling Torres, Kenny Lane, etc. all by the way of KO, IMO a much better resume than Chavez. Ortiz was a pysical very strong LW, who had great skills, very good one-punch-power, very good chin, great stamina, etc., to defeat him you need an excellent defense for example, a thing that JCC didn´t have, he would get outpointed IMO...

Ortiz UD Chavez (8-4)

[red cobra]

Ortiz, would, in my opinion have had too much savvy for Chavez. He was a clever, all around complete fighter adept at the 15 round distance, and would have frustrated Chavez by having an answer for Julio's aggression.

[la-califa]

A big puncher & fleetfooted fighter like Mayweather couldn't box circles around Chavez. Chavez slips punches from the outside very well & comes in hard with combinations with a steady body attack. This is how he grinds down an opponent. Even a superfast fighter as Taylor could not deny Chavez from coming inside to do damage. Ortiz is indeed strong & tough. But Chavez would have the speed & punching accuracy advantage, which would be the big factor & wearing down Ortiz. Chavez UD.

[Manassa]

But Chavez would have the speed & punching accuracy advantage

But this is just it... He wouldn't! Where are all these misconceptions sprouting from?

[brooklyn1550]

I like Carlos Ortiz by decision

[brownpimp88]

I strongly disagree with posters who say indirectly that Chavez would win this easily, that only marks my thaughts that the 80s fighters are very overrated in general here because most of us were kids back there and the likes of Hagler, Tyson, Chavez, etc. were all our role models...

back to topic, fighters like Rosario or Ramirez had nice padded KO- records (that they were brutal punchers is clear, no doubt there), but you can´t just look at the KO-%, Ortiz for example beat HOF´s like Sugar Ramos, Flash Elorde, Battling Torres, Kenny Lane, etc. all by the way of KO, IMO a much better resume than Chavez. Ortiz was a pysical very strong LW, who had great skills, very good one-punch-power, very good chin, great stamina, etc., to defeat him you need an excellent defense for example, a thing that JCC didn´t have, he would get outpointed IMO...

Ortiz UD Chavez (8-4)

I wouldnt necessarily say ortiz's resume is better. Its about the same IMO.

Meldrick taylor
Hector camacho
edwin rosario
rocky lockridge
tony lopez
jose luis ramirez
rafeal limon
roger mayweather
greg haugen

I can argue that camacho is greater than ramos, laguna, elorde, loi and joe brown. He is about on par with locce, that would have been a 50/50 fight. Meldrick Taylor would have beaten most guys that ortiz beat too.

[Sweet Pea]

Originally Posted by Sweet Pea
Not neccessarily true, I've seen plenty of fights(such as Ramirez) where Chavez wasn't directly pressing the action, but rather opting to box and get in close quarters in the middle of the ring. Against someone like Ortiz who has his own size, power, and strength for Chavez to contend with, it will be a problem simply grinding him down and pushing him against the ropes. While I believe Chavez may have been better on the inside, he would have problems getting him in a tight spot such as against the ropes due to Ortiz's strength and ring generalship of his own.

I think Ortiz outboxes him on the outside for sure, and has enough size, strength, and skill on the inside to cope, but for the most part, the skill, power, and ring generalship to keep the fight in the middle of the ring for the greater part of the fight. Ortiz by UD.
I still stand by it.

[mcvey]

Who wins at 135 lbs and why?
An in shape Ortiz takes this ,imo ,he was a strong lightweight ,versatile ,very accurate with hard punches and his boxing ability was superior to JCC,s imo he aint getting ground down here,if he had to trade he could hold his own,hes too savvy for Chavez I think.Carlos by u dec.

[red cobra]

Shows how little is known about Carlos Ortiz, to say that Chavez would beat him. Chavez never fought anyone, out side of Whitaker, who had the ability of Ortiz. Ortiz would be too smart and crafty for JCC, and would have handed him a defeat, in their primes. Ortiz would have controlled the fight much like Frankie Randall did in his upset of Chavez, but Carlos was a much better fighter than Randall, and would have put some hurt on Chavez as well, a knockdown or two wouldn't have been surprising. Ortiz by a unanimous 15 round decision.

[Minotauro]

i think Chavez would out work Ortiz and get a close decision like what Loi did.

[Manassa]

I think Ortiz is genuinely one of the four or five best lightweights ever. If Roberto Duran and Pernell Whitaker are the first two, Ortiz follows immediately alongside Ike Williams and Henry Armstrong.

[Sweet Pea]

Shows how little is known about Carlos Ortiz, to say that Chavez would beat him. Chavez never fought anyone, out side of Whitaker, who had the ability of Ortiz. Ortiz would be too smart and crafty for JCC, and would have handed him a defeat, in their primes. Ortiz would have controlled the fight much like Frankie Randall did in his upset of Chavez, but Carlos was a much better fighter than Randall, and would have put some hurt on Chavez as well, a knockdown or two wouldn't have been surprising. Ortiz by a unanimous 15 round decision.Let's not get out of hand.

[teeto]

This is a really hard one to pick , and I dont think you could be far wrong whichever of these two legends you favor for h2h in a bout . Because this is at 135 I will say Ortiz , I have him as part of the elite of alltime at lightweight , with Duran , Leonard , Gans , Whitaker , and Williams (most probably wont agree , but I have Mosley coming after these in my atg 135 list) . Maybe Chavez wins h2h , but I seem to stick to my decision when it comes to a fighter who i think is one of the elite of a particular division's history , so i think Ortiz here .

[BUDW]

Ortiz wins a tough ud, his boxing skills win out/

[RafaelGonzal]

well, then you know that against chavez, there is NO outside.

it wasnt at 140 but go watch Chavez vs Laporte, also Ortiz is naturally the bigger man he also fought murderous punchers in his day amd was a very intelligent fighter. What I mean is dont underestimate Ortiz' strength or boxing ability. I believ you are.