If a fighter's "Greatness" is judged by his "prime", how long does it have to be?

[Jazzo]

15 Fights?

10 Fights?

1 Second?

24 Fights?

1 Fight?

2 Fights?


The above are examples of possible correct answers.

Discuss.

[McGrain]

A fighters greatness is not, and never will be, judged upon his prime. Unless you're a die-hard Tyson fan.

[Jazzo]

A fighters greatness is not, and never will be, judged upon his prime. Unless you're a die-hard Tyson fan.

Many Tyson fans would argue with that :yep

But what about guys like Bowe?

[KO byBRIGGS]

A fighters greatness is not, and never will be, judged upon his prime. Unless you're a die-hard Tyson fan.I agree here look at Holyfield for example...lets talk in theory he takes the WBO strap and continues to unfiy (unlikely but for example lets say) then Holyfield would be arguably on of the greatest fighter of all time for a feat that happend 10-15 years after his prime. It is about over all careers not the time people call "prime" the word is so hard to define these days with guys like Hopkins still being able to dominate at later stages of their careers.

[Jazzo]

I agree here look at Holyfield for example...lets talk in theory he takes the WBO strap and continues to unfiy (unlikely but for example lets say) then Holyfield would be arguably on of the greatest fighter of all time for a feat that happend 10-15 years after his prime. It is about over all careers not the time people call "prime" the word is so hard to define these days with guys like Hopkins still being able to dominate at later stages of their careers.

If we are counting the positives for Holyfield, we must count the negatives as well.

Think Toney and Donald.

Or perhaps Ruiz.

[China_hand_Joe]

Greatness is pointless -fullstop- Bestness is what is important and that can indeed be judged by one appropiate fight -fullstop-

[Jazzo]

Greatness is pointless -fullstop- Bestness is what is important and that can indeed be judged by one appropiate fight -fullstop-

But in order to determine which fights are appropriate, we must solve the "prime" dispute.

[China_hand_Joe]

But in order to determine which fights are appropriate, we must solve the "prime" dispute.Calzaghe is a tricky one, he is actually better than his prime -fullstop-

[Max Molyneux]

Greatness is pointless -fullstop- Bestness is what is important and that can indeed be judged by one appropiate fight -fullstop-

Like Calzaghe hamburgering Lacy.:D

[McGrain]

Calzaghe is a tricky one, he is actually better than his prime -fullstop-

:lol:

I love this post.

[McGrain]

I agree here look at Holyfield for example...lets talk in theory he takes the WBO strap and continues to unfiy (unlikely but for example lets say) then Holyfield would be arguably on of the greatest fighter of all time for a feat that happend 10-15 years after his prime. It is about over all careers not the time people call "prime" the word is so hard to define these days with guys like Hopkins still being able to dominate at later stages of their careers.

Very good post.

There is an even better example in Ali. Ali's peak is obviously just pre-ban. But his greatness wasn't proven until well after that. Post-ban we find out he has a granite chin, proper heart and the tools to dig into the bed rock plus ego to match his earlier rants. Combining what we know of his physical prime and his mental attributes (previously obscured) we have the best heavyweight of all time and possibly the best fighter.

Prime is only a part of this equation, and not the most important one.

[1-Ton]

I think it's entirely subjective from fighter to fighter. For instance, I don't believe Riddick Bowe was a "great" fighter, because looking at his resume, even though he was a unified champ, he did not accomplish much outside of beating Holyfield the first time to claim the title. Tyson, on the other hand, while his reign as champion and window of "greatness" was relatively short, he was so dominant in that era, that he can only be considered great.

[McGrain]

Greatness is pointless -fullstop- Bestness is what is important and that can indeed be judged by one appropiate fight -fullstop-

I agree that "best" is more important than "greatest", though i don't see greatness as pointless.

I also don't agree that best can be judged by one appropriate fight.

[China_hand_Joe]

:lol:

I love this post.You agree though, right -fullstop- His peak performance did come way after his prime -fullstop-

[McGrain]

You agree though, right -fullstop- His peak performance did come way after his prime -fullstop-


Possible. But that wouldn't make him better than his prime.

That read beautifully.

[China_hand_Joe]

Possible. But that wouldn't make him better than his prime.

That read beautifully.But he is better than his peak performance (one of the greatest performances ever seen), we never actually saw his true prime -fullstop- We can only assume the Calzaghe that beat Lacy was at about 75% -fullstop-

[KO byBRIGGS]

If we are counting the positives for Holyfield, we must count the negatives as well.


I dont think we do, well not exactly sometimes maybe but to lose is to be human, on any given day a fighter could not be there best for any variety of reasons. I am not making excuses I am saying coming out of that bad period for Holyfield to come back at his age and unify at this stage would imo make him top 3 of all time. We have to look at the greatest parts of a career more than the bad parts. Almost every fighter has something they wish they could erase on their resume but if they get stronger for it then maybe its not as negative as we all make it out to be.

[McGrain]

But he is better than his peak performance

Interestingly for someone who's so into "best" I think you may be confusing it with greatness. The best version of Cal existed before he took on Lacey, the fact that he beat Lacey past-prime doesn't make that version better than the peak version :lol: . Crazy man.

we never actually saw his true prime

Sure we did; we just didn't see him take on anyone top drawer during that time. Still haven't.

[Jazzo]

I dont think we do, well not exactly sometimes maybe but to lose is to be human, on any given day a fighter could not be there best for any variety of reasons. I am not making excuses I am saying coming out of that bad period for Holyfield to come back at his age and unify at this stage would imo make him top 3 of all time. We have to look at the greatest parts of a career more than the bad parts. Almost every fighter has something they wish they could erase on their resume but if they get stronger for it then maybe its not as negative as we all make it out to be.
Yes. But the negatives would be too strong to ignore.

Ignoring Lewis' loses is not even deemed acceptable.

Furthermore, would it not prove that he simply had a long prime?

[China_hand_Joe]

Interestingly for someone who's so into "best" I think you may be confusing it with greatness. The best version of Cal existed before he took on Lacey, the fact that he beat Lacey past-prime doesn't make that version better than the peak version :lol: . Crazy man.



Sure we did; we just didn't see him take on anyone top drawer during that time. Still haven't.Calzaghe never actually tried hard before the Lacy fight though -fullstop-

Calzaghe is actually better than Calzaghe ever was, just he never got motivated enough to prove it -fullstop-

[lefthook31]

I dont think time is as important as number of fights. I usually define prime as being the point to which the fighter reaches his best against the best competition, and how many fights he can sustain that level before he starts to show inconsistencies or losses. In regards to Tyson his prime may have been short timewise, but in that prime he got a lot of fights in and dispatched his opponents in ways noone else could or did.
Greatness must be defined or argued upon consistency and performance, level of opposition, and win percentage during that prime period. In regards to a fighter like Calzahge, he has shown consistency, but lacked the top competiton on his resume. I believe Joe can be a great, but he has lost a lot of time with meaningless fights and fights with guys far past their best, regardless whether its his fault or his promoters.

[Caper]

Yes. But the negatives would be too strong to ignore.

Ignoring Lewis' loses is not even deemed acceptable.

Furthermore, would it not prove that he simply had a long prime?

Oh shiznick its the Jizzman......long time no type in general boxing forum eh :p

I think when judging a fighters greatness you must include all aspects of their career including career paths and choices, some guys battle all who come forth while others pick out their next contestant. I guess a fighters prime would give you the best image of their potential, skills and conditioning but how many fighters are actually pampered correctly to the point where they have reached their pinnicale.

[McGrain]

Calzaghe never actually tried hard before the Lacy fight though -fullstop-

He did.

Calzaghe is actually better than Calzaghe ever was, just he never got motivated enough to prove it -fullstop-

This, then, would be his problem. But it isn't sensible to say "he's better than he was because of mental issues". Boxing is a composite sport. Depending on who you talk to the mental side is worth between 10 and 90% of performance and achievment. It's Tysonesuque nut-huggery extraordinaire to insists he'd have been better if he tried.

[China_hand_Joe]

He did.



This, then, would be his problem. But it isn't sensible to say "he's better than he was because of mental issues". Boxing is a composite sport. Depending on who you talk to the mental side is worth between 10 and 90% of performance and achievment. It's Tysonesuque nut-huggery extraordinaire to insists he'd have been better if he tried.Can we agree Calzaghe is better than he ever got a chance to show though -fullstop- If he had fought Hopkins or Jones (causing high motivation) in 2000-2003 (more around his physical prime) he might be the official GOAT right now -fullstop-

[KO byBRIGGS]

Calzaghe GOAT????????????????? NO!!!!

[McGrain]

Can we agree Calzaghe is better than he ever got a chance to show though -fullstop-

We can agree that he has never been tested at the highest level. I, for one, have no idea how Calzaghe would react whilst behind, hurt and under pressure against a great fighter, or even if a great fighter would be able to do these things because he hasn't fought one.


If he had fought Hopkins or Jones (causing high motivation) in 2000-2003 (more around his physical prime) he might be the official GOAT right now -fullstop-

Horrifically, there has been enough competition around Cal's weight for him to be talked about as an ATG had these fights been made. God damn shame they weren't.

[Decebal]

Can we agree Calzaghe is better than he ever got a chance to show though

Is any painter greater than any painting that he ever painted? Is any composer greater than any piece of music she composed? No. So why would a fighter be greater than any fight that he ever fought?

[Caper]

Can we agree Calzaghe is better than he ever got a chance to show though -fullstop- If he had fought Hopkins or Jones (causing high motivation) in 2000-2003 (more around his physical prime) he might be the official GOAT right now -fullstop-

And if Jesus didn't die for all our sins we might officially end up in Hell once we die......

:patsch

[KO byBRIGGS]

Is any painter greater than any painting that he ever painted? Is any composer greater than any piece of music she composed? No. So why would a fighter be greater than any fight that he ever fought?True..... Can`t say well if this happened then this blah blah. Things either happened or they didnt.

[Caper]

Is any painter greater than any painting that he ever painted? Is any composer greater than any piece of music she composed? No. So why would a fighter be greater than any fight that he ever fought?

This post is also acceptable.

[China_hand_Joe]

Is any painter greater than any painting that he ever painted? Is any composer greater than any piece of music she composed? No. So why would a fighter be greater than any fight that he ever fought?It isn't like the canvas can duck a painter though, is it -questionmark-

[McGrain]

It isn't like the canvas can duck a painter though, is it -questionmark-


Who all do you think Cal ducked?

[China_hand_Joe]

People are forgetting about Calzaghe's assumed resume -fullstop-

[China_hand_Joe]

Who all do you think Cal ducked?Nobody, fights just couldn't be made -fullstop-

[Caper]

Nobody, fights just couldn't be made -fullstop-

I've never heard of Cal ducking anyone, except of course Kess but that's been answered. Anyone know where the Iron boy is fighting...what channel?

[lefthook31]

If joe was concerned about his legacy he most definitely could have instructed his promoter to make fights or else. He continues to sign with Frank ******, who is notorious for protecting his fighters and keeping them in fights he knows they can win and in the UK. Cant blame him because the fans over there dont care, they just want to come to the fights.
Look at the situation with Hatton, he did the right thing forced ****** to make the Tsyzu fight, and now finds himself in a legacy making fight with the sports P4P #1, once he got away from ****** and out of the UK. Calzahge had plenty of top notch opponents that he missed out on, including but not limited to Bernard Hopkins, Roy Jones Jr, Antonio Tarver etc etc. Joe seemed to run his mouth a lot, but never got the fights made, and that hurt him a bit. The Lacy fight certainly showed he was a solid player, but since then its been back to the C level circuit.

[Decebal]

It isn't like the canvas can duck a painter though, is it -questionmark-

That is not the point. If the painter cannot for any reason paint his greatest imagined creation, he will not be able to take any credit simply for having thought it/ imagined it.

[China_hand_Joe]

If joe was concerned about his legacy he most definitely could have instructed his promoter to make fights or else. He continues to sign with Frank ******, who is notorious for protecting his fighters and keeping them in fights he knows they can win and in the UK. Cant blame him because the fans over there dont care, they just want to come to the fights.
Look at the situation with Hatton, he did the right thing forced ****** to make the Tsyzu fight, and now finds himself in a legacy making fight with the sports P4P #1, once he got away from ****** and out of the UK. Calzahge had plenty of top notch opponents that he missed out on, including but not limited to Bernard Hopkins, Roy Jones Jr, Antonio Tarver etc etc. Joe seemed to run his mouth a lot, but never got the fights made, and that hurt him a bit. The Lacy fight certainly showed he was a solid player, but since then its been back to the C level circuit.The Hopkins fight was attempted - B-Hop wanted none of it though -fullstop- What on earth would murdering Tarver have proved though -questionmark-

[China_hand_Joe]

That is not the point. If the painter cannot for any reason paint his greatest imagined creation, he will not be able to take any credit simply for having thought it/ imagined it.Calzaghe's assumed resume includes victories over Hopkins, Jones, Toney, DM, John Ruiz, Mormeck, Holyfield -fullstop- We should give him credit for those victories -fullstop-

[McGrain]

The Hopkins fight was attempted - B-Hop wanted none of it though -fullstop- What on earth would murdering Tarver have proved though -questionmark-

Yeah, maybe. The thing is though, Calzaghe showed zero ambition. If he really wanted these really big fights he had to

a) go to America

b) be very flexible about taking a pay cut.

He did neither. When the writing was on the wall as firmly as could be - LEAVE FRANK ****** -, when Hatton did just that, he still hung back. His attitude - on the record - is, "I am the Champion, they should come to me, why should I take a paycut?"

[BewareofDawg]

Many Tyson fans would argue with that :yep

But what about guys like Bowe?
That Fat, Cowardly, Disgrace of a Champion shouldn't even be mentioned in a thread about Fighters and GREATNESS!!! :bart

[PH|LLA]

a fighters prime is 1 of the many factors that factor into greatness

[McGrain]

Calzaghe's assumed resume includes victories over Hopkins, Jones, Toney, DM, John Ruiz, Mormeck, Holyfield -fullstop- We should give him credit for those victories -fullstop-


If he had shown any ambition, overall, then you might be on to somethng.

As things stand, this post is delusional and/or trolling.

[Decebal]

Calzaghe's assumed resume includes victories over Hopkins, Jones, Toney, DM, John Ruiz, Mormeck, Holyfield -fullstop- We should give him credit for those victories -fullstop-

:nut

[China_hand_Joe]

:nutWe all know Calzaghe would have beaten the lot of them, but people insist on placing below them on P4P lists -fullstop-

[lefthook31]

Yeah, maybe. The thing is though, Calzaghe showed zero ambition. If he really wanted these really big fights he had to

a) go to America

b) be very flexible about taking a pay cut.

He did neither. When the writing was on the wall as firmly as could be - LEAVE FRANK ****** -, when Hatton did just that, he still hung back. His attitude - on the record - is, "I am the Champion, they should come to me, why should I take a paycut?"

Thats fine, he can have that attitude, but its not the right attitude to make the era defining fights hes in need of in my opinion. First off hes the WBO champion, a title that is lightly regarded by the elite fighters, especially in the US, and all fighters have to work with their promoters to make the elite fights. Look at Zab Judah for instance, he fought for nothing to get a second shot at Corey Spinks. Calzahge coming to America and fighting Hopkins or Roy Jones, would net him a payday far higher than anything hes seen in the UK, believe that.

[Caper]

We all know Calzaghe would have beaten the lot of them, but people insist on placing below them on P4P lists -fullstop-

China....sorry to burst your bubble but in this sport is all about what you do and not what you could have done.

When will you realize this.

[McGrain]

We all know Calzaghe would have beaten the lot of them, but people insist on placing below them on P4P lists -fullstop-


He made NONE of the right moves to make fights with these guys. His attitude was naive and reticent at best.

[China_hand_Joe]

China....sorry to burst your bubble but in this sport is all about what you do and not what you could have done.

When will you realize this.If you are better you are better, it is as simple as that -fullstop- It doesn't matter whether you fight Lennox Lewis or Eric Crumble (outside of learning curves - fighters learn against good opponents, that isn't an issue for Calzaghe though), if you are the best you are the best -fullstop-

[KO byBRIGGS]

It isn't like the canvas can duck a painter though, is it well actually if you look at very old paintings and art you should consider they did have the same quality paint brushes, paints and materials available today. Should we then say artists would have been greater had they had those things? How were pyramids built? you have to make thigns happen you cant complain about should have could have crap.

[Decebal]

We all know Calzaghe would have beaten the lot of them, but people insist on placing below them on P4P lists -fullstop-

Achilles was not the greatest fighter at Troy until he left his tent and started fighting. Whatever the reason for which he didn't fight beforehand, main thing is he didn't fight, so he couldn't be the best.

Fortunately for Calzaghe, not only do many people think that he would have beaten those guys, but he also has a chance to actually become p4p no.1 by beating Kessler, and two of winner of Berrio/Bute, winner of Taylor/Pavlik, winner of Dawson/Diaconu...by any reasonable standards.

[Decebal]

I think what CHJ should be saying is that Joe is the most talented fighter of his generation and that he had the potential to become the greatest. This, suddenly, does not appear to be so controversial/problematic as the things that he seems to want to argue.

[Caper]

If you are better you are better, it is as simple as that -fullstop- It doesn't matter whether you fight Lennox Lewis or Eric Crumble (outside of learning curves - fighters learn against good opponents, that isn't an issue for Calzaghe though), if you are the best you are the best -fullstop-

No China it's not as simple as that....maybe in your little world Joe is potentially the greatest of all time; But to the rest of the breathing world he has left more to desire.

[China_hand_Joe]

Fortunately for Calzaghe, not only do many people think that he would have beaten those guys, but he also has a chance to actually become p4p no.1 by beating Kessler, and two of winner of Berrio/Bute, winner of Taylor/Pavlik, winner of Dawson/Diaconu...by any reasonable standards.That won't get him to number one -fullstop- Americans -fullstop-

[China_hand_Joe]

I think what CHJ should be saying is that Joe is the most talented fighter of his generation and that he had the potential to become the greatest. This, suddenly, does not appear to be so controversial/problematic as the things that he seems to want to argue.Surely if you are that good, you should be the assumed greatest too -questionmark-

[McGrain]

I think what CHJ should be saying is that Joe is the most talented fighter of his generation and that he had the potential to become the greatest. This, suddenly, does not appear to be so controversial/problematic as the things that he seems to want to argue.


Another way of seeing it is; CHJ made a series of borderline claims no-one agreed with. So he then made a truly outrageous claim to cover those tracks - "he can't be serious..." - even Decebal is trying to rationalise what he said for him. Tried and tested is how i'd describe this method.

[Caper]

I think what CHJ should be saying is that Joe is the most talented fighter of his generation and that he had the potential to become the greatest. This, suddenly, does not appear to be so controversial/problematic as the things that he seems to want to argue.

Yes I understand that, using that logic I could name at least a dozen fighters who would fit right into that category but facts are facts and opinions are like assholes everyone has one.

[BewareofDawg]

Achilles was not the greatest fighter at Troy until he left his tent and started fighting. Whatever the reason for which he didn't fight beforehand, main thing is he didn't fight, so he couldn't be the best.

Fortunately for Calzaghe, not only do many people think that he would have beaten those guys, but he also has a chance to actually become p4p no.1 by beating Kessler, and two of winner of Berrio/Bute, winner of Taylor/Pavlik, winner of Dawson/Diaconu...by any reasonable standards.
That wouldn't make him P4P #1....Sorry :nono . But although the two can't be compared in fighting ability, being that Achilles is viewed as one of the greatest warriors this world has ever seen and Calzaghe spends his time slapping body builders and tv Reality stars, they are however similar in other areas. Did you know that Patroclus wasn't really Achilles cousin (as the movie suggests), but actually his 'Gay Lover'.....so you see the parallels between Achilles and Calzaghe are definitely there :think

[lefthook31]

If you are better you are better, it is as simple as that -fullstop- It doesn't matter whether you fight Lennox Lewis or Eric Crumble (outside of learning curves - fighters learn against good opponents, that isn't an issue for Calzaghe though), if you are the best you are the best -fullstop-

Your kidding right???

[McGrain]

Fortunately for Calzaghe, not only do many people think that he would have beaten those guys, but he also has a chance to actually become p4p no.1 by beating Kessler, and two of winner of Berrio/Bute, winner of Taylor/Pavlik, winner of Dawson/Diaconu...by any reasonable standards.

If all the other guys who are currently above him fail to fight/lose between now and then, possible.

[Decebal]

That wouldn't make him P4P #1....Sorry :nono .

I think it would do more so than beating Kessler, Hopkins and Taylor, for example - the last two are NAMES, not live dangermen.

Did you know that Patroclus wasn't really Achilles cousin (as the movie suggests), but actually his 'Gay Lover'.....so you see the parallels between Achilles and Calzaghe are definitely there :think

Patroclus is supposed to have been his best friend and lover...yes...sexual lover too...but the love between two men in their culture had different connotations to what it would have today. I suppose we cannot even comprehend what it must have felt to them: they thought you couldn't love a woman truly, only lust after her/be infatuated with her - true friendship and love could only occur between two men...:think ...and Achilles was hardly bisexual either...they just thought of sex and friendship in a different way, I guess.

[BewareofDawg]

I think it would do more so than beating Kessler, Hopkins and Taylor, for example - the last two are NAMES, not live dangermen.



Patroclus is supposed to have been his best friend and lover...yes...sexual lover too...but the love between two men in their culture had different connotations to what it would have today. I suppose we cannot even comprehend what it must have felt to them: they thought you couldn't love a woman truly, only lust after her/be infatuated with her - true friendship and love could only occur between two men...:think ...and Achilles was hardly bisexual either...they just thought of sex and friendship in a different way, I guess.
I know. But it is still funny to think of those warriors writhing in pain and lust for eachother :patsch

[China_hand_Joe]

I think I understand now.

"Calzaghe is the best of all time, the most talented of all time but not the greatest."

Do we all agree with this statement -questionmark-

[Decebal]

I know. But it is still funny to think of those warriors writhing in pain and lust for eachother :patsch

It's funny to us, because we cannot understand it.

[BewareofDawg]

It's funny to us, because we cannot understand it.
I know. :D

Whats also funny is that everyone who watched the movie Gladiator fails to realize that Maximus, if he did indeed exist which I don't believe he did, would have been most likely be the reciever for that big black dude :lol:

[Decebal]

I think I understand now.

"Calzaghe is the best of all time, the most talented of all time but not the greatest."

Do we all agree with this statement -questionmark-

I don't think I am qualified to agree or disagree, but I would say, of current fighters I have seen, Joe is one of the best and one of the most talented, if not the best and most talented, but not the greatest. :good

[McGrain]

I don't think I am qualified to agree or disagree, but I would say, of current fighters I have seen, Joe is one of the best and one of the most talented, if not the best and most talented, but not the greatest. :good


You don't think you're qualified to agree or disagree with the statement "Calzaghe is the best fighter of all time?"

:lol:

What the fuck are you qualified for?

[Decebal]

I know. :D

Whats also funny is that everyone who watched the movie Gladiator fails to realize that Maximus, if he did indeed exist which I don't believe he did, would have been most likely be the reciever for that big black dude :lol:

Well, maybe not...:lol: ...more likely he would have fancied Lucius!:yep

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[Decebal]

You don't think you're qualified to agree or disagree with the statement "Calzaghe is the best fighter of all time?"

:lol:

What the fuck are you qualified for?

:lol: Talking bollocks on a boxing site with some dudes from across the pond!:good

[Caper]

I think I understand now.

"Calzaghe is the best of all time, the most talented of all time but not the greatest."

Do we all agree with this statement -questionmark-

I certainly don't though I feel Calzaghe is one of the best of our generation he is not even close to the greatest or the potential greatest. Using your logic fighters like Ivan Calderon, PBF shit man even Zab Judah would be considered more talented all time.......

[China_hand_Joe]

I don't think I am qualified to agree or disagree, but I would say, of current fighters I have seen, Joe is one of the best and one of the most talented, if not the best and most talented, but not the greatest. :good
Can we at least agree it is extremely probable Calzaghe is the best human boxer of all time -questionmark-

[McGrain]

Can we at least agree it is extremely probable Calzaghe is the best human boxer of all time -questionmark-


Composite, it is unlikley that he would be in the top two or three hundred, in my opinion.

[China_hand_Joe]

I certainly don't though I feel Calzaghe is one of the best of our generation he is not even close to the greatest or the potential greatest. Using your logic fighters like Ivan Calderon, PBF shit man even Zab Judah would be considered more talented all time.......Zab Judah lacks mental talent. Which does count. He is physically talented, but that is it.

[China_hand_Joe]

Composite, it is unlikley that he would be in the top two or three hundred, in my opinion.Including only boxers -questionmark-

[kg0208]

Can we agree Calzaghe is better than he ever got a chance to show though -fullstop- If he had fought Hopkins or Jones (causing high motivation) in 2000-2003 (more around his physical prime) he might be the official GOAT right now -fullstop-
If he had fought Jones in 2000, we wouldn't be having a talk about how great Calzaghe is, we would be having a talk about Calzaghe recovered from his first loss to still have a chance at unifying the SMW titles.:deal

[China_hand_Joe]

If he had fought Jones in 2000, we wouldn't be having a talk about how great Calzaghe is, we would be having a talk about Calzaghe recovered from his first loss to still have a chance at unifying the SMW titles.:dealYou are a favorite poster of mine, so I won't make you look silly for making that post.

[Decebal]

Can we at least agree it is extremely probable Calzaghe is the best human boxer of all time -questionmark-


HUMAN boxer...ehh?[Only registered and activated users can see links]
I don't know...my lack of knowledge is letting me down...sorry!:good

[kg0208]

You are a favorite poster of mine, so I won't make you look silly for making that post.

I have time. Go for it:good

[China_hand_Joe]

I have time. Go for it:goodDon't worry. I always keep my word.

[China_hand_Joe]

HUMAN boxer...ehh?[Only registered and activated users can see links]
I don't know...my lack of knowledge is letting me down...sorry!:goodThere are types of shrimp that are P4P better.

[kg0208]

Don't worry. I always keep my word.

Well then we shall save this for another time, though someone will surely take up your position for you.

Calzaghe is maybe one of the 3 most talented fighters in the world now. A win over Kessler may show everyone this without dispute. But sir, it is not about Americans. The P4P lists are full of non Americans. 2 Brits reside there as we speak, at least on MINE.

[Drofrah]

I think a great fighter continues to have great fights during and after his "prime". A great fighter can lose and come back. A great fighter will dig in and win long after his prime is past. Primes are fleeting, and great fighter will surpass this with battles and heart

[China_hand_Joe]

Well then we shall save this for another time, though someone will surely take up your position for you.

Calzaghe is maybe one of the 3 most talented fighters in the world now. A win over Kessler may show everyone this without dispute. But sir, it is not about Americans. The P4P lists are full of non Americans. 2 Brits reside there as we speak, at least on MINE.Though non North and South Americans suffer on all time lists. You are a bizaare American though.

[Caper]

Zab Judah lacks mental talent. Which does count. He is physically talented, but that is it.

Well you can also use Calzaghes lack of mental toughness against Bika, he actually even admitted he was mentally unprepared.

[kg0208]

The problem is that people don't know when a fighters prime is. Take Hopkins for example. People this his prime is when he beat Trinidad. No it's not....Hopkins had better outtings in the mid to late 90's than he ever did against Trinidad. That fight is when he got recognition and great achievment in the publics eyes....but it was not the best version of Hopkins. (See Glen Johnson fight for Hopkins prime about 4 years earlier). The same can be said of MAB when he beat Hamed. That was a little past his best MAB. MAB has fought a long long time.

Conversly, people think when you LOSE you have just left your prime, ala Jones to Tarver. Jones prime was from about 94-2000 or so. He was slowing down since then. But since he never lost, people assume he was still prime. He wasn't. Just a past his prime version was still winning.

[China_hand_Joe]

Well you can also use Calzaghes lack of mental toughness against Bika, he actually even admitted he was mentally unprepared.Underprepared, not deficient.

[China_hand_Joe]

The problem is that people don't know when a fighters prime is. Take Hopkins for example. People this his prime is when he beat Trinidad. No it's not....Hopkins had better outtings in the mid to late 90's than he ever did against Trinidad. That fight is when he got recognition and great achievment in the publics eyes....but it was not the best version of Hopkins. (See Glen Johnson fight for Hopkins prime about 4 years earlier). The same can be said of MAB when he beat Hamed. That was a little past his best MAB. MAB has fought a long long time.

Conversly, people think when you LOSE you have just left your prime, ala Jones to Tarver. Jones prime was from about 94-2000 or so. He was slowing down since then. But since he never lost, people assume he was still prime. He wasn't. Just a past his prime version was still winning.You are the only American who realises Hopkins prime wasn't when he was 41.

[Caper]

Underprepared, not deficient.

Good point but failing to be consistant in this sport can cost you your life or cause you to lose a bout that you should dominate with flying colors. I think I've used up all my "Sitting with China Hand Joe" tea time for the day I think we can continue this intrigueing convo sometime in the near future.:smoke

[Jazzo]

China_ Hand _Joe, you are giving these people an easy way out of discussing the real issues.

I do not want to hear anything more about Calzaghe in this thread.

[huki]

:lol: :lol: :lol:

This thread had one of the best china_hand_joe performances in recent forum history.

In your opinion, what would happen if a motivated prime Calzaghe fought an exact clone of himself in his prime at top motivation over 12 rounds?

[kg0208]

:lol: :lol: :lol:

This thread had one of the best china_hand_joe performances in recent forum history.

In your opinion, what would happen if a motivated prime Calzaghe fought an exact clone of himself in his prime at top motivation over 12 rounds?

End of the cosmos....too much talent to be contained in one universe. It can barely contain the one Calzaghe it has now -fullstop-

:lol: