Hypothetical situation...

[Amsterdam]

*IF* Jermain Taylor does not get KOed by Kelly Pavlik, but also clearly loses a competitive fight and gets the decision yet again...

Would that make Taylor the new Sven Ottke?:think

[brooklyn1550]

I'm not sure...all I know is that I will be extremely upset if Pavlik appears to have clearly win and Taylor regains his belts.

If he wins on points, but it is well deserved, I wont mind.

As far as the next Ottke? Maybe, except Taylor is a better fighter, in my view, than Ottke

[Amsterdam]

No, he has to make 21 title defences before that.

If he doesn't get KOed, but gets another bogus decision, he'd at least on his way to getting 10 defences, with most of the big ones being fraudulent 'victories', much like Ottke. Do you know why? Because if he can take Pavlik's punches and make it to the final bell, he most likely wins by decision, even if Pavlik 'beats' him by rounds technically.

You had to KO Ottke to win, with his running style it was difficult, if Taylor turns out to have a better chin than we're predicting and can take a hard hitting MW's best, then it's likely all he has to do is coast down the stretch to be given the decision or a draw.

This is very similiar to Sven Ottke's run and Taylor could be considered his American counterpart if this happens, even though you have to give Taylor more credit in taking on better opponents than Ottke did.

However....

Both Ottke and Taylor have avoided Joe Calzaghe challenges, so...:rofl

Don't see the similiarities?

[Amsterdam]

I'm not sure...all I know is that I will be extremely upset if Pavlik appears to have clearly win and Taylor regains his belts.

If he wins on points, but it is well deserved, I wont mind.

As far as the next Ottke? Maybe, except Taylor is a better fighter, in my view, than Ottke

No doubt that he's better than Ottke, at least Taylor 'normally' pushes the fight.

[compukiller]

If Taylor gets yet another early X-Mas gift, I will kick his ass myself. :twisted:

[brooklyn1550]

Both Ottke and Taylor have avoided Joe Calzaghe challenges, so...:rofl


I don't think Taylor has avoided Calzaghe. I just think he's trying to make his mark at 160 first...he's fought Winky and B-Hop and now is fighting Kelly Pavlik. Let's wait until he's done at middleweight

[McGrain]

Taylor KO2 Calzaghe.

[Sai]

Ottke is an ATG for the comic KO of Bumdine. Taylor will never achieve something so awesome in his entire career. Hes a wanabee Ottke

[Amsterdam]

Taylor KO2 Calzaghe.

Pavlik KO 5 Taylor.:good

[McGrain]

Pavlik KO 5 Taylor.:good


I think on recent showings you would have to make Pavlik favourite.

Here is the thing though; Taylor looks desperate to counter-punch. Pavlik is NOT the all out warrior guys are making him out to be. This will be another stinker - and Taylor's becoming expert - in all seriousness - at winning that type of fight.

Of course, if I'm proved wrong and Pavlik comes with serious pressure we have a different fight on our hands.

[Amsterdam]

Micky - You have to understand that if little Ouma can back Taylor up and get his game out of whack, only to land his feather dusters, that Kelly Pavlik being a big hard punching MW with a good workrate also is going to do the same.. it's just a matter if Taylor's chin cracks like I am predicting.

Taylor can't deal with pressure at all, it's his undoing.

[huki]

If that happened, this place would go absolutely nuts. I wasn't here during the Vitali-Lewis match, but I imagine it could be a bigger bitchfest than that if the fight was a very close, but clear win for Pavlik and he still lost. No one cares about Ottke, especially in the U.S. and he's not high profile like Taylor, so I don't think that's a good comparison.

I would almost love to see Taylor get another gift decision, just to see what would happen in here. The hate for him would be unreal. The controversial Hopkins and Winky fights, followed by two embarassing performances against junior middleweights, and then to top it off a clear gift decision against an up and coming undefeated white fighter? God damn..

[McGrain]

Taylor can't deal with pressure at all, it's his undoing.


Well we'll see - but I wonder just how much pressure Pavlik can bring here. Against Miranda it was obvious (though very brave) because Miranda was a momentum fighter, he's not getting of unless he's moving in.

Here it's different.

[Amsterdam]

If that happened, this place would go absolutely nuts. I wasn't here during the Vitali-Lewis match, but I imagine it could be a bigger bitchfest than that if the fight was a very close, but clear win for Pavlik and he still lost. No one cares about Ottke, especially in the U.S. and he's not high profile like Taylor, so I don't think that's a good comparison.

I would almost love to see Taylor get another gift decision, just to see what would happen in here. The hate for him would be unreal. The controversial Hopkins and Winky fights, followed by two embarassing performances against junior middleweights, and then to top it off a clear gift decision against an up and coming undefeated white fighter? God damn..

As much as I want to see Taylor brutally KOed, I think this would actually do more for the sport because it may cause a fan outrage and a crackdown on these ridiculous gift decisions.

I feel personally that some decisions should be overturned, especially if the public is universal on it, meaning 90% like the Chavez-Whitaker or Dlh-Sturm, Ottke-Reid type of events. These are universally regarded robberies.

But I'd love to see the brutal criticism of 100 Amsterdam/Zakman/Compukiller type of Taylor critics on here also, even though I hope he gets KOed.:rofl

[Amsterdam]

Well we'll see - but I wonder just how much pressure Pavlik can bring here. Against Miranda it was obvious (though very brave) because Miranda was a momentum fighter, he's not getting of unless he's moving in.

Here it's different.

Both unfold under effective pressure. Think about Kassim Ouma, the little overrated 154 pound pressure swarmer and what happened that night.

[McGrain]

Both unfold under effective pressure. Think about Kassim Ouma, the little overrated 154 pound pressure swarmer and what happened that night.

I lean that way - won't be clearing out the savings account though.

[Amsterdam]

I lean that way - won't be clearing out the savings account though.

I like Glen Johnson, he's a true credit to the sport. Do you agree?

[McGrain]

I like Glen Johnson, he's a true credit to the sport. Do you agree?


Yeah, I do. A good fighter and he travelled all over. Got some bum decisions too. You see his fights with Woods?

[Executioner]

If Taylor gets yet another early X-Mas gift, I will kick his ass myself. :twisted:


:rofl

[Amsterdam]

Yeah, I do. A good fighter and he travelled all over. Got some bum decisions too. You see his fights with Woods?

I think 5 of Glen's losses were bad decisions personally, which would give him a better overall record. The sad thing is that these guys' legacy sometimes rests on the hands of idiotic judges who are either paid off or biased.

[McGrain]

The sad thing is that these guys' legacy sometimes rests on the hands of idiotic judges who are either paid off or biased.

And Amen.

[cross_trainer]

Taylor KO2 Calzaghe.

Pavlik KO 5 Taylor.:good



Ergo...


Pavlik KO 1 Calzaghe




And that's a wrap.

[McGrain]

Ergo...



And that's a wrap.


It's to the comedy-boxing circuit with you, and damn the law degree.

[Amsterdam]

I see that you've tried those Iboga roots like I've suggested Cross...:yep

[cross_trainer]

The sad thing is that these guys' legacy sometimes rests on the hands of idiotic judges who are either paid off or biased.

It's an unfortunate fact of life that great men of action are generally judged by the mentally impaired.

[McGrain]

It's an unfortunate fact of life that great men of action are generally judged by the mentally impaired.


General forum is beset by idiots :yep

[Amsterdam]

It's to the comedy-boxing circuit with you, and damn the law degree.

ESB is 30% serious discussion, 70% comedic/biased discussions. It used to be 50/50, but CHJ came along September 2006 and turned this place into Calzaghe land and it's become more and more whacked out...

[McGrain]

ESB is 30% serious discussion, 70% comedic/biased discussions. It used to be 50/50, but CHJ came along September 2006 and turned this place into Calzaghe land and it's become more and more whacked out...

It is pretty fucked sometimes.

I like your boy but he's a Plan 9 From Outer Space devotee.

[Amsterdam]

It is pretty fucked sometimes.

I like your boy but he's a Plan 9 From Outer Space devotee.

Now back to the hypothetical situation. IF Jermain gets a gift over Pavlik, does hit technically make him a neo-SvenOttke?

[McGrain]

Now back to the hypothetical situation. IF Jermain gets a gift over Pavlik, does hit technically make him a neo-SvenOttke?


Nah. Such a thing couldn't exsist in the US.

[China_hand_Joe]

Now back to the hypothetical situation. IF Jermain gets a gift over Pavlik, does hit technically make him a neo-SvenOttke?It makes him pretty poor at boxing. Sven Ottke would out-box Pavlik no problem.

[cross_trainer]

Now back to the hypothetical situation. IF Jermain gets a gift over Pavlik, does hit technically make him a neo-SvenOttke?

I'd have to reply with a possibly definite maybe.

In reality, though, no. Taylor holds complete lineage of a more respected division, and Ottke did not.

[KhanB]

I think it would only help the image of Hbo boxing turn into a joke. It would be funny to me a dark way because JT is a Hbo olympic hype job. They stole my boy's belt away and gave it to the polite milk dud but they didnt know he would suck this bad.

[Lance_Uppercut]

*IF* Jermain Taylor does not get KOed by Kelly Pavlik, but also clearly loses a competitive fight and gets the decision yet again...

Would that make Taylor the new Sven Ottke?:think

A better questions is, can Taylor legitimately win a close decision w/o you and Zakman calling robbery? :think

[Amsterdam]

A better questions is, can Taylor legitimately win a close decision w/o you and Zakman calling robbery? :think

If he deserves it in a close fight. Fights can be close but clear, so if it is clear, then yes.

[sues2nd]

*IF* Jermain Taylor does not get KOed by Kelly Pavlik, but also clearly loses a competitive fight and gets the decision yet again...

Would that make Taylor the new Sven Ottke?:think

And if he clearly outclasses Pavlik on his way to a easy UD. Will you then call Pavlik a hypejob and continue to hate Taylor, or will you give him the respect that he ALREADY DESERVES???

[cuchulain]

*IF* Jermain Taylor does not get KOed by Kelly Pavlik, but also clearly loses a competitive fight and gets the decision yet again...

Would that make Taylor the new Sven Ottke?:think

Taylor has gotten NO gift decisions.

His fights with Bernard and Winky were close. I thought he narrowly won all three but he went 2-0-1. I would not have complained if all three had been judged narrow defeats for Jermain but in no way do they rank as robberies. A robbery occurs when the CLEAR winner is judged as losing. That was not the case here. All three fights were close and I believe the decisions were good.

I am 90 % sure that Jermain will UD Kelly and I believe there's a 50 % chance he will KO him. He will be motivated because of recent criticism.

Will a victory over Pavlik silence his critics?

Maybe, but probably not.

[pioterbezkitu]

No, there will never be something as bad as Sven Ottke.. Oh, maybe a nice chick with a penis is worse..

[China_hand_Joe]

the over-rated kassim ouma? beating spinks close is embarrassing? when has spinks ever been truly dominated? a guy who beats hopkins twice and draws with wright is sven ottke?

you people don't know shit.Prime Sven Ottke would have a very good chance of going at least 2-0-1 with the same fighters.

[China_hand_Joe]

:roflOttke was an extremely good boxer, only a yank (or Americanised European) would totally rule out the possiblity of Sven being capable of beating American Antiquity.

[China_hand_Joe]

I have seen at least 8 or 9 Ottke fights and I know he's not capable of beating Hopkins, that much is for sure.He has zero chance against prime Hopkins. We are all aware of that, but the Hopkins Taylor beat is an entirely different proposition. That Hopkins managed to lose rounds to an old Howard Eastman.

[China_hand_Joe]

Calzaghe, Dawson, Kessler, prime Ottke would all have shut out that Tarver.

[pioterbezkitu]

Really....what about Hopkins that beat Tarver?

That Tarver was almost beaten by Elvin Murqi

[China_hand_Joe]

That's not what I asked you.He has an extremely good chance.

Hopkins will lose to the first decent LHW he faces, just like he lost to the first decent middleweight he had faced in years.

[China_hand_Joe]

Calzaghe would humiliate Hopkins now. I hope the fight happens (I wouldn't usually wish harm on an old man), if only for the enlightenment of you and America.

It would actually be a shock to you to see Calzaghe easily dismantle Hopkins.

[pioterbezkitu]

how many fighters 'almost' beat up Ottke?

It's not the point, the point is, that Hopkin's win over this version of Tarver is extremely overrated.

[China_hand_Joe]

i'm sorry but i believe that it is the point. Hopkins dethroned the LHW champ in his first fight at the weight and he looked great doing it.The IBO champ -questionmark-

[Illmatic]

taylor has yet to get one bogus decision. Every decision has been on point

[pioterbezkitu]

i'm sorry but i believe that it is the point. Hopkins dethroned the LHW champ in his first fight at the weight and he looked great doing it.

And you should be sorry

[China_hand_Joe]

No son, he was the lineal champion at lightheavy.Just like Carlos Baldomir was at WW. We don't seem to be putting Vernon Forrest in P4P lists for his last win.

[cross_trainer]

Just like Carlos Baldomir was at WW. We don't seem to be putting Vernon Forrest in P4P lists for his last win.

Vernon Forrest beat Baldomir after he was dethroned, and at a higher weight than Baldomir was accustomed to fighting. Opposite situation with Hopkins/Tarver.

But then, you probably knew that already.

[cross_trainer]

Thank you.

:good

[China_hand_Joe]

Vernon Forrest beat Baldomir after he was dethroned, and at a higher weight than Baldomir was accustomed to fighting. Opposite situation with Hopkins/Tarver.

But then, you probably knew that already.The point remains, being a lineal champ does not necessarily mean much at all. Nobody would suggest for a moment Baldomir or Tarver were the best at their respective weights. Hopkins beat an upper-end journeyman in Tarver, nothing more.



Likewise Hopkins is not the best LHW out there right now and is far from being one of the 5 best P4P fighters in the world today.

[cross_trainer]

The point remains, being a lineal champ does not necessarily mean much at all. Nobody would suggest for a moment Baldomir or Tarver were the best at their respective weights. Hopkins beat an upper-end journeyman in Tarver, nothing more.

Likewise Hopkins is not the best LHW out there right now and is far from being one of the 5 best P4P fighters in the world today.

Winning the linear title automatically disqualifies Tarver from "upper-end journeyman". I suspect you're just trying to create controversy here--Tarver was better than Baldomir, and Baldomir was legitimately a top fighter at welterweight because he beat the previous linear champion, i.e. the best fighter in the world at welterweight.

[China_hand_Joe]

Winning the linear title automatically disqualifies Tarver from "upper-end journeyman". I suspect you're just trying to create controversy here--Tarver was better than Baldomir, and Baldomir was legitimately a top fighter at welterweight because he beat the previous linear champion, i.e. the best fighter in the world at welterweight.Sven Ottke was more of a lineal champ than Calzaghe at SMW. Again it means nothing.

Hopkins is the lineal champ at LHW, it means nothing, he isn't the best at that weight.

Hopkins will lose as soon as he faces a very good LHW.

[Amsterdam]

Rubbish.

Rubbish.

Rubbish.

I think the 3rd line is factual, I don't see Hopkins beating a good, younger LHW at this point.

[China_hand_Joe]

Rubbish.

Rubbish.

Rubbish.
You are a delusional yank judging by your total denial of the facts mate. But I am here to help you though.

Reggie. Who wins in 2008, Joe Calzaghe or Bernard Hopkins -questionmark-

[Amsterdam]

who the fuck knows. but you're acting as if it's a sure thing. Sorry but Calzaghe hasn't done shit aside from beat Lacy. That's no indication that he'd be an all-time great in Hopkins.

But we aren't dealing with a prime Hopkins reggie. Think about things from a styles perspective and erase the 'name' involved.

[cross_trainer]

Sven Ottke was more of a lineal champ than Calzaghe at SMW. Again it means nothing.

Calzaghe did not rely on robberies to retain his belt. Nor did Tarver or Baldomir.


Hopkins is the lineal champ at LHW, it means nothing, he isn't the best at that weight.

Opinion. He beat the man who beat the man, and is thus the best at his weight until someone proves otherwise or he refuses to face anyone legitimate.



Hopkins will lose as soon as he faces a very good LHW.

You grade him based upon your hypothetical assessment of his future resume rather than his actual accomplishments? If that is the case, then Holyfield is already a 5-time heavyweight champion.

[China_hand_Joe]

who the fuck knows. but you're acting as if it's a sure thing. Sorry but Calzaghe hasn't done shit aside from beat Lacy. That's no indication that he'd be an all-time great in Hopkins.Yes it is. Hopkins is an all time great, but an old all time great.

We know for a fact (more or less) the following -

Hopkins would not be able to stop Joe Calzaghe (we can all appreciate how unlikely that is to happen)

Hopkins is getting older, and is all but incapable of fighting at a fast pace

Joe Calzaghe is easily capable of setting such a pace

Joe Calzaghe may well be unbeatable

At this point in time Hopkins is slower, so the counter right, that would have helped against Calzaghe in his prime is far less of a factor

So superior is Joe Calzaghe's stamina, he can simply out work Hopkins, without the need for any real degree of skill

Even if Hopkins did manage to land the right with some regularity, it isn't going to matter as he would still be outlanded by a 2 to 1 ratio, purely from Calzaghe's work ethic.

Hopkins cannot win on points and he cannot win by stoppage.

[China_hand_Joe]

assessment of his future resume rather than his actual accomplishments? If that is the case, then Holyfield is already a 5-time heavyweight champion.I am assessing Hopkins on his actual ability at this point in time, rather than his victories several years ago.

[Zakman]

Taylor has gotten NO gift decisions.

His fights with Bernard and Winky were close. I thought he narrowly won all three but he went 2-0-1. I would not have complained if all three had been judged narrow defeats for Jermain but in no way do they rank as robberies. A robbery occurs when the CLEAR winner is judged as losing. That was not the case here. All three fights were close and I believe the decisions were good.

The first decision against Hopkins was a joke. Bernard clearly won that fight. Sure it was close, but Hopkins should have gotten the nod - and WOULD have were it not for Taylor's HBO backing, and Hopkins unpopularity with the boxing establishment. Then there never would have even been a second fight. That one was somewhat more competitive, but I thought Hopkins should have gotten the nod. And THEN he gets another gift draw against Wright. Doesn't anyone sense a pattern here??

A "gift decision" is not quite the same as a "robbery." I wouldn't call these decisions "robberies," but they were close figths that should have gone to the other guy. One gift you might be able to excuse, but three??? C'mon - an HBO contract is the gift that keeps on giving for Taylor. :yep

[cross_trainer]

I am assessing Hopkins on his actual ability at this point in time, rather than his victories several years ago.

His victory over Tarver (the lineal champion and therefore the best fighter at that weight) was less than a year ago.

[Amsterdam]

His victory over Tarver (the lineal champion and therefore the best fighter at that weight) was less than a year ago.

What CHJ is specifically saying is that Tarver beats Jones and gets the title, then fights Johnson and shares 1-1 with him, which is fair. But then he avoids young challengers like Paul Briggs and others, takes on Jones yet again...

See the pattern? These older guys fight within their circle here, despite holding onto the top title.

I can't pick any of them over the younger crop, except for maybe Johnson because he's remained fresh and even then he's just competitive.

[China_hand_Joe]

His victory over Tarver (the lineal champion and therefore the best fighter at that weight) was less than a year ago.There is no way Cross_Trainer believes the lineal champ is the best at their weight by default.

[cross_trainer]

There is no way Cross_Trainer believes the lineal champ is the best at their weight by default.

Cross_Trainer believes that in the case of the lineal (not just a few belts) title, China_hand_Joe must accept that the guy holding it is the best in the world. Otherwise, the title has no meaning and unification is worthless.

Exceptions occur when the champion refuses to fight the best opposition--but even then, guys like Patterson have still become ATG's.

[cross_trainer]

What CHJ is specifically saying is that Tarver beats Jones and gets the title, then fights Johnson and shares 1-1 with him, which is fair. But then he avoids young challengers like Paul Briggs and others, takes on Jones yet again...


The same type of "ducking" could be attributed to Joe Calzaghe (he of the single great victory), yet he is still thought of as the best in his weightclass. In his case, he does not even hold a lineal claim to the title.

[Lance_Uppercut]

If he deserves it in a close fight. Fights can be close but clear, so if it is clear, then yes.

You say that now...

[Amsterdam]

The same type of "ducking" could be attributed to Joe Calzaghe (he of the single great victory), yet he is still thought of as the best in his weightclass. In his case, he does not even hold a lineal claim to the title.

Calzaghe has taken on the heir to the throne in 2006, is now taking on the next one in 2007 and has been trying to pursue the big American P4P names for the longest time, he's also cleaned out the Euro circuit(save for Ottke and Beyer, who ducked him)in his earlier career, disposing of an older Eubank, defeating Reid, tkoing Woodhall, nearly shutting Starie out etc.

These names that I listed above are no worse for wear than what Hopkins defeated pre-Trinidad, in fact, they are better.

It's not Calzaghe's fault that he was a very big danger but also of no name towards the international, namely American list of big names that bring each other big money. He is getting there finally, but still, Jermain Taylor avoided a 6 million dollar payday in Las Vegas and Tarver(pre-Hopkins) wanted no part of him, with the stipulations that Joe jump up and face Tarver in America at LHW.

See what I mean? The only case that anyone has that Calzaghe avoided, is Glen Johnson, and this was because of an injury for the most part, they sought to reconcile this by offering Johnson a fight at 175 in America after Tarver ignored and Taylor ignored, but nothing was heard on it and I can't tell you what happened, I know Johnson would have taken it, but maybe the money was not right.

[Amsterdam]

You say that now...

First of all, I know how to score a fight and do so objectively when seriously scoring it and if I score the fight for Taylor, I will give him credit. Likewise if I feel it's a fight that is a 'swing fight' in the sense that either fighter could have gotten it, I'd give credit.

I feel Hopkins beat him clearly first time and Wright definitley beat him clearly.

I also scored the Spinks fight a draw, but since several 'swing' rounds were there, it was obvious that a Taylor win was fair, because Spinks sure as hell did not win it.

[China_hand_Joe]

Cross_Trainer believes that in the case of the lineal (not just a few belts) title, China_hand_Joe must accept that the guy holding it is the best in the world. Otherwise, the title has no meaning and unification is worthless.
This makes zero logical sense as you are fully aware.

[vonBanditos]

His victory over Tarver (the lineal champion and therefore the best fighter at that weight) was less than a year ago.

Just to (off-topic) nitpick, Tarver wasn't the lineal champion.

[pioterbezkitu]

Isn't Erdei the lineal champ at LHW?

[Amsterdam]

Isn't Erdei the lineal champ at LHW?

That may be. Regardless, Briggs and Adamek ducked it out for me at least on who's truly top at 175 two times, then Dawson nearly shutout Adamek.

We have to remember, Tarver ducked Briggs, because he'd have lost to the young hungry Australian slugger. Tarver didn't fight bums, Glen Johnson is an awesome fighter, but he fought for the money more so than the legacy and it shows.

Do you agree with me? After Adamek beat briggs on the Golota/Brewster undercard, I considered him to be the best at LHW, seeing as he also also KOed Ulrich and that Briggs beat the shit out of Drews(both are near Erdei's level).

[vonBanditos]

He was the Ring mag champ, which in that division, is the closest thing that we have to lineal I think.

I'd agree that he was the best, but it was just a minor detail that I was bringing up. Michalczewski fought and beat Hill before Jones did so the lineage went off in that direction.

[cross_trainer]

This makes zero logical sense as you are fully aware.

Why?

[cuchulain]

Kessler, Calzaghe, Adamek and Dawson would all embarrass BHOP at this point in his career.

A prime BHOP MIGHT be a different story.