Oscar De La Hoya is not an ATG.

[Amsterdam]

It's undisputed that he was an elite and is a future first ballot Hall of Fame fighter, but DLH does not deserve the title of ATG and I have been reviewing his entire run a little more lately.

Let's look at the evidence:

- A controversial win against Whitaker, people are 50/50 on this one, but it was close and an old Whitaker at that who had just struggled greatly with Hurtado.

- A *gift* over Quartey. Note that I did not say 'controversial win', because this one was pretty clear and it's more like 80% of boxing fans scored this for Quartey. Ike was robbed.

- A close loss against Trinidad, that was FAIR. DLH fanboys act like DLH was robbed, but this fight was absolutely a close fight that could have been a draw or a very close Trinidad win and I just watched this the other day and came out with a draw myself, giving Trinidad 2 of the early rounds and DLH's running down the stretch is not even needed for discussion.

- Two losses to Mosely, which this is not a big deal as they were competitive, but lets add them in for the sake of the discussion.

- *Gift* against Sturm. Out of shape sure, but a loss no less in my book and this is universally considered.

- KO 9 loss against Hopkins, no big deal here, but throw it on regardless.

- Avoided Tszyu, Forrest etc. and always fought with his own stipulations in the vein of Ray Leonard.

....................

Best wins -

- Chavez x 2, an older Chavez though.

- Controversial over an older Whitaker, would have been GOOD if it were clear.

- Vargas

- Molina

- Leveled all B level competition very well(I take this into consideration, because it shows the level that he is, which was elite).

...............

So, we have a very good fighter and an undisputed elite level and future Hall of Famer, but he came up short against the other P4P level comp and while being competitive against them, this is still coming up short. He is also a very flawed fighter, with a weak mentality and this is why he was brought along in a protected way and why HE came up short when he absolutely could have won, as he was a phenominal 'talent', which is not disputed.

There you go guys, discuss.:hat

[lefthook31]

Oscar will go down as an all time great for his popularity alone. Anyone who wins titles in 5 weight divisions deserves the accolade of all time great. I would say he fought some pretty good competition and was competitive in all of his fights, even the losses.

[lefthook31]

Its hard with DLH, hes borderline..almost like either youre above him or below him.

For example, Bhop is above him and Joe Calzaghe is below.. Now if you consider Joe an ATG, the DLH also must be ATG
Calzahge hasnt come close to fighting the level of opposition as Oscar.

[Amsterdam]

Its hard with DLH, hes borderline..almost like either youre above him or below him.

For example, Bhop is above him and Joe Calzaghe is below.. Now if you consider Joe an ATG, the DLH also must be ATG

Joe is not an ATG yet. I have never claimed that he was ever at any point in my time at this forum, let's stick to discussing DLH's ranking and not Calzaghe, even though everyone knows Calzaghe is my favourite and I rate him very highly in the current scene and instead of just going into a DLH discussion, Calzaghe was mentioned.

[McGrain]

Anyone who wins titles in 5 weight divisions deserves the accolade of all time great. I would say he fought some pretty good competition and was competitive in all of his fights, even the losses.


I agree.

[Thread Stealer]

The Whitaker fight was a draw, the Quartey fight was a narrow Ike win, Sturm won, Oscar narrowly defeated Tito and Mosley in the rematch. Floyd won 8-4.

And to save the trouble, anyone who claims DLH "sealed the deal" in round 12 against Quartey probably went to the Ken Morita and Eugenia Williams school of judging.

[Thread Stealer]

- Avoided Tszyu


There was talk of matching Tszyu and De La Hoya up in 1997. DLH's last fight @ 140 was against Gonzalez, and Tszyu was on the undercard.

Unfortunately, Tszyu's no-contest against Mas hurt the momentum for a matchup with DLH. Shortly after DLH fought Whitaker, Tszyu got stopped by Vince Phillips.

[lefthook31]

Thats why I have him below.. But its true...you'll hear people say damn if Oscar is this then Tito should be that. I guess his popularity..and also lots of folks are jealous..hes like a measuring stick

I dont think B-Hop has had the competition that Oscar had either. He never really had the career defining middleweight fights, besides Taylor, and a blown up Trinidad, but Hopkins consistently won, where Oscar dropped some close ones.

[Amsterdam]

I forgot to add Oscar's loss to Floyd, where he was about in the same spot as Whitaker was in terms of what he had left. He started out okay but faded horribly down the stretch, as usual. Floyd 8-4 no doubt.

This is not a true negative, but it's there none the less. Even though he fought very good competition, some of the best, I still feel that he avoided some other competition that wouldn't have brought a good payday, thus doing the same old 'fight within the inner circle of big names' routine and he ducked Kostya Tszyu in his jump to Welter, in which Welterweight is when he really started taking on the best opposition.

[jackiebrown]

suuuuure leave out the fact that he beat a prime time ike quartey .. and beat oba carr without fighting life or death with him the way trinidad did...
beat up hector camacho .. who was really old ... not just old after the fact like julio cesar chaves... he beat up jorge paez , i believe one of the ruelas bros .. and several other decent little men ...

i mean come on we can disect the mans career and make everybody think he isnt an ATG ..but lets be real .. if this cat aint .. why is sal sanchez? .. biggest wins were agianst a smaller gomez ..who never did pan out well above 122 .. and a green nelson who gave him fits ...

can we talk here? .. or am i making you mad? .. i mean really

can we get off the golden boys jock? .. the man brought us super fight after super fight ... every time he fights it does huge numbers ... hes a great face for the sport.... he isnt making rap videos .. he isnt fighting dogs.. he isnt fighting cocks.. he isnt jumping up on hoods of peoples cars and causeing hell

i mean really .... lets get off oscars nuts .. god damn! the man is a fucking living legend .... you think people are fleeing bob arum and don king and signing with him for their health? .. the guy is great for boxing ...

read my lips

close...this...thread ..down!!!!

[Amsterdam]

I dont think B-Hop has had the competition that Oscar had either. He never really had the career defining middleweight fights, besides Taylor, and a blown up Trinidad, but Hopkins consistently won, where Oscar dropped some close ones.

Spot on lefthook, you have to rate consistency. Hopkins dominated most of his competition, which was good competition and maybe not on the level that Hoya took at Welterweight, but dominating them fight after fight is better than not rising to the occassion and struggling with lesser opponents even then.

[lefthook31]

I forgot to add Oscar's loss to Floyd, where he was about in the same spot as Whitaker was in terms of what he had left. He started out okay but faded horribly down the stretch, as usual. Floyd 8-4 no doubt.

This is not a true negative, but it's there none the less. Even though he fought very good competition, some of the best, I still feel that he avoided some other competition that wouldn't have brought a good payday, thus doing the same old 'fight within the inner circle of big names' routine and he ducked Kostya Tszyu in his jump to Welter, in which Welterweight is when he really started taking on the best opposition.

I dont think he ducked Tsyzu. Oscar was always up to the challenge of facing the best. Hell, he took on Hopkins which he had no buisness doing. I would rather fight Tszyu than Pernell Whitaker anyday.

[Lance_Uppercut]

Wheres the cut off for being an ATG anyway? IS anyone out of the Top Ten NOT an ATG? Top 20? 30? 50?

ATG is becoming as generic as P4P.

[Amsterdam]

I dont think he ducked Tsyzu. Oscar was always up to the challenge of facing the best. Hell, he took on Hopkins which he had no buisness doing. I would rather fight Tszyu than Pernell Whitaker anyday.

Yes, but think of the numbers that an older Pernell brought, over the younger Tszyu at the time. Pernell had been looking pretty bad lately and the move was to snipe off the ageing legend.

Tszyu was a hungry, dominant younger force and a bigger threat at that point in my opinion.

[Asterion]

The Whitaker fight was a draw, the Tito fight was won by Oscar clearly, the second Mosley fight was extremely close, the fight against Quartey was won by Oscar, the Sturm fight was a loss. In my opinion.

[jackiebrown]

its easy to dominate "most " of your competition when you fight nothing but hand picked mandatorys ...

oscar delahoya has been fighting named ...good ..great ... and beyond names since about 1995-96....

there was no crying about how he couldnt get fights.. there was no balling about how hbo didnt like him so he had to fight on espn .. no he too the damn fights like a man .. and won damn near all of them ...

hopkins is still crying about getting whooped by taylor

fuck bernard hopkins

[Thread Stealer]

there was no crying about how he couldnt get fights.. there was no balling about how hbo didnt like him so he had to fight on espn ..


Well obviously.

Oscar's the big money draw so he can get almost any fight he wants.

And HBO has been sucking his cock for years.

[lefthook31]

Yes, but think of the numbers that an older Pernell brought, over the younger Tszyu at the time. Pernell had been looking pretty bad lately and the move was to snipe off the ageing legend.

Tszyu was a hungry, dominant younger force and a bigger threat at that point in my opinion.
Could be. It would have been an interesting fight, and he could have probably fit that fight in before taking on the likes of Kamau, Gonzalez, and Camacho.

[jackiebrown]

because the guy actually fights... he dosnt beg for more money then hes worth .. then go out there and try to make love to his opponets arms ...

i cant stand bernard hopkin fights...

its not like oscar is the only big money draw to ever get "the big fights" .. i dont think oscar "wanted" to fight hopkins when he knew he was gonna get beat ... he didnt "want" to fight the crazy ass wild man from ghana in ike quartey ... oscar could have sat back his whole career and made millions fighting the troy dorseys and the gabrelle ruelases of the world .. but now he wanted to give the fucking fans something to watch in the idea that MAYBE ..just maybe ..they might respect him for it ...

but no .. oscars greedy... oscars the golden boy .. oscar isnt an all time great...

yall are a shame to the sport of boxing .... a man who made millions fighting the absalute best talent in the world .. and you guys have the nerve to call him anything but an all time great....

same cat coulda made the same amount of cash fighting stiffs ... fewer hard fights makes more easier fights.. means more money in the long run ... incase yall needed someone to do the math for you ....

[KhanB]

Why all the hate for Hops? He hasnt had the kind of career Oscar has? Based on what? Selling tickets? Hops is at least one level above Hops. I can at least imagine Hops hanging with Fab four of the 80's. Can you imagine DLH not getting knocked out by Hearns if he barely survived Quartey. Hops has had GREAT performances against all types of fighters and sometimes been the underdog like against the Bigger Tarver and Tito who people say was too small but at the same time admit Tito was a starved WW. Just for the fact alone that Hops at least fought Winky which is something Oscar would never do should keep Hops name out of this.

[Thread Stealer]

because the guy actually fights... he dosnt beg for more money then hes worth .. then go out there and try to make love to his opponets arms ...

i cant stand bernard hopkin fights...

its not like oscar is the only big money draw to ever get "the big fights" .. i dont think oscar "wanted" to fight hopkins when he knew he was gonna get beat ... he didnt "want" to fight the crazy ass wild man from ghana in ike quartey ... oscar could have sat back his whole career and made millions fighting the troy dorseys and the gabrelle ruelases of the world .. but now he wanted to give the fucking fans something to watch in the idea that MAYBE ..just maybe ..they might respect him for it ...

but no .. oscars greedy... oscars the golden boy .. oscar isnt an all time great...

yall are a shame to the sport of boxing .... a man who made millions fighting the absalute best talent in the world .. and you guys have the nerve to call him anything but an all time great....

same cat coulda made the same amount of cash fighting stiffs ... fewer hard fights makes more easier fights.. means more money in the long run ... incase yall needed someone to do the math for you ....

Why would Oscar beg for more money than he's worth when he already makes a shitload and can take about 75% of the purse?

Oscar never fought Gabriel Ruelas. Oscar fought Rafael Ruelas, who was highly regarded at the time, and that was one of De La Hoya's best wins.

Of course Oscar "wanted" to fight those guys, otherwise he wouldn't have chosen to. He got paid $30 million to fight Hopkins, that's hard for any fighter to turn down.

[lefthook31]

Why all the hate for Hops? He hasnt had the kind of career Oscar has? Based on what? Selling tickets? Hops is at least one level above Hops. I can at least imagine Hops hanging with Fab four of the 80's. Can you imagine DLH not getting knocked out by Hearns if he barely survived Quartey. Hops has had GREAT performances against all types of fighters and sometimes been the underdog like against the Bigger Tarver and Tito who people say was too small but at the same time admit Tito was a starved WW. Just for the fact alone that Hops at least fought Winky which is something Oscar would never do should keep Hops name out of this.

I believe Hopkins would have been competitive during the 80's as well, but he lacked the great competition at middleweight that the guys from the 80's had in each other. He earned his status by staying consistent and winning and winning, but he truly never faced another great middleweight besides Jones, and he lost that fight although competitively.

[dave82]

I rate Oscar as an ATG

[jackiebrown]

bernard begs for more money then hes worth ... and does jack shit to earn it ...

oscar dosnt have to beg ..because hes exciteing .. he brings in the gates.. poeple wanna see him fight because they know hes gonna fight ...

roy jones jr was the at his highlight reel best in the 90s .. you wanna know why he never made a 20-30 million dollar purse? ..and this goes for hopkins too... both .."atgs" as you guys put....the reason why they didnt make that kinda money is .. nobody wants to see roy jones ko a fucking trash can in two rounds... and nobody wants to see hopkins hug it out and sucker fight a 30-10-5 bum that he should be putting on their back ! ...

thats why oscar makes the money .. hes willing to fight anybody ...fucking anybody!

[KhanB]

I believe Hopkins would have been competitive during the 80's as well, but he lacked the great competition at middleweight that the guys from the 80's had in each other. He earned his status by staying consistent and winning and winning, but he truly never faced another great middleweight besides Jones, and he lost that fight although competitively.

Well thanx for listening. I had to defend my boy. Jones beat Hops but i truly think Hops got better from it and mightve been Jones in a rematch before Tarver did but we'll never know.

[ufoalf]

Either way he's one of the most entertaining fighters out there.

[Amsterdam]

Already 3 pages, nice. Hopefully it lasts a couple of weeks and becomes filled with classic material by the end of it's run.:good

[lefthook31]

Well thanx for listening. I had to defend my boy. Jones beat Hops but i truly think Hops got better from it and mightve been Jones in a rematch before Tarver did but we'll never know.

It would have been nice to see that fight made, but Jones was so incredibly fast in his prime he was tough to beat. Hopkins was more of a guy that wore his opponents down. Those fights against Echols and Robert Allen, were ugly grueling fights, almost street fights. I dont think he would have ever had a chance to drag Jones into that type of fight, he was simply too fast, and too elusive.
Tarver is a huge man with long long arms. He doesnt lead, he counterpunched Jones, and thats why he was able to catch him. Who knows though its unfortunate it didnt happen.

[dave82]

Well thanx for listening. I had to defend my boy. Jones beat Hops but i truly think Hops got better from it and mightve been Jones in a rematch before Tarver did but we'll never know.

No shame losing to Roy Jones I think.

[lefthook31]

No shame losing to Roy Jones I think.
Definitely no shame losing to that version of Roy Jones.

[Sonny Carson]

People don't think Camacho was an ATG so why is De La Hoya an all time great.? So what if he was a 5 time champion who did he beat to get to get those early titles? Nobody really good in particular. He barely beat Molina. He got gift win's against Whitaker and Quartey. He blew the fight against Tito. His best win was against Vargas. He was a very good fighter but not an all time great.

[brooklyn1550]

Oscar has many wins over B class opponents and past-their-prime ATGs in Chavez/Whitaker, but against the great fighters he did face that were still at or near their primes, he lost (which is a big deal when considering this because they were career defining fights). He's had an abundance of close/controversial decisions as well. De La Hoya certainly deserves the title of "great" but it's questionable whether or not he is an ATG (same category as the Hearns', Leonard's, Duran's, Whitaker's, Chavez's, Hagler's, Jones's, etc). A case can definitely be made, but I am not one who thinks he is.

[KhanB]

People don't think Camacho was an ATG so why is De La Hoya an all time great.? So what if he was a 5 time champion who did he beat to get to get those early titles? Nobody really good in particular. He barely beat Molina. He got gift win's against Whitaker and Quartey. He blew the fight against Tito. His best win was against Vargas. He was a very good fighter but not an all time great.

Exactly. A lot of his "best" wins were over Tito leftovers, not just Vargas. And the five 5 time champ label is just a label. Oscar should of brought a gun the way he robbed Sturm.

[China_hand_Joe]

We have no idea how good or bad Oscar really was. He didn't fight enough Europeans (we know why), just name Americans instead.

[Amsterdam]

Exactly. A lot of his "best" wins were over Tito leftovers, not just Vargas. And the five 5 time champ label is just a label. Oscar should of brought a gun the way he robbed Sturm.

Hoya was not a MW, this is why I don't really rate Hopkins win over him to be a legacy mark for Hopkins, that was a money fight. You're a Hopkins fan and are agreeing with me that DLH is not an ATG and his legacy is made out better because of his popularity, but I also hope that you don't include DLH as one of Hopkins greatest victories all the same.

[brooklyn1550]

We have no idea how good or bad Oscar really was. He didn't fight enough Europeans (we know why), just name Americans instead.

:good
If only we saw De La Hoya-Urkal

[Lance_Uppercut]

So....what is this 'cut off' mark where you go from being an ATG to just a 'good' boxer? Anyone?

[KhanB]

Hoya was not a MW, this is why I don't really rate Hopkins win over him to be a legacy mark for Hopkins, that was a money fight. You're a Hopkins fan and are agreeing with me that DLH is not an ATG and his legacy is made out better because of his popularity, but I also hope that you don't include DLH as one of Hopkins greatest victories all the same.

Of course not. Hops v DLH was a HBO production. Hops victories over Glen Johnson and Echols mean more to me, not to mention the Excellent beatdown performance on Trinidad and beating Tarver who i actually thought would beat X.

[China_hand_Joe]

I'd rather have seen Mayweather - Karmazin than that farce on May 5th.

[Thread Stealer]

bernard begs for more money then hes worth ... and does jack shit to earn it ...

oscar dosnt have to beg ..because hes exciteing .. he brings in the gates.. poeple wanna see him fight because they know hes gonna fight ...

roy jones jr was the at his highlight reel best in the 90s .. you wanna know why he never made a 20-30 million dollar purse? ..and this goes for hopkins too... both .."atgs" as you guys put....the reason why they didnt make that kinda money is .. nobody wants to see roy jones ko a fucking trash can in two rounds... and nobody wants to see hopkins hug it out and sucker fight a 30-10-5 bum that he should be putting on their back ! ...

thats why oscar makes the money .. hes willing to fight anybody ...fucking anybody!

Oscar makes the big money for a few reasons.

-He was a Gold Medalist with the heartwarming story of doing it for his deceased mother. That made him a name already as an amateur, as the Olympics have increasingly had less significance for boxers over the years and their future popularity.

-He's a Mexican-American. He can speak both Spanish and English and promote his fights and himself in both languages. The Latino market is a huge market in boxing.

-He has the looks to even attract female viewers.

Even when Oscar fights scrubs, he makes crazy money (though not as much as against top fighters). And even when he has dull or mediocre fights...his next PPV fight will still do solid-to-great numbers.

[tays001]

Thats why I have him below.. But its true...you'll hear people say damn if Oscar is this then Tito should be that. I guess his popularity..and also lots of folks are jealous..hes like a measuring stick

yeah but tito lost to dlh :deal

end of this will not respond to your response:D :lol:

[Thread Stealer]

So....what is this 'cut off' mark where you go from being an ATG to just a 'good' boxer? Anyone?

I dunno.

I'm guessing I would say fighters like Leonard, Duran, Hagler, Whitaker are ATGs....Others like McCallum, Trinidad, De La Hoya...are greats.

At least that's how I would put it.

As far as being "good", I don't know. People will say a guy like Ward or Gatti isn't that good, but in actuality when you think about it, being a top 10-20 fighter in your weight class in the world is really far better than simply "good".

[brooklyn1550]

I'm guessing I would say fighters like Leonard, Duran, Hagler, Whitaker are ATGs....Others like McCallum, Trinidad, De La Hoya...are greats.

At least that's how I would put it.

As far as being "good", I don't know. People will say a guy like Ward or Gatti isn't that good, but in actuality when you think about it, being a top 10-20 fighter in your weight class in the world is really far better than simply "good".

That's better than I could put it:good

[Lance_Uppercut]

I dunno.

I'm guessing I would say fighters like Leonard, Duran, Hagler, Whitaker are ATGs....Others like McCallum, Trinidad, De La Hoya...are greats.

At least that's how I would put it.

As far as being "good", I don't know. People will say a guy like Ward or Gatti isn't that good, but in actuality when you think about it, being a top 10-20 fighter in your weight class in the world is really far better than simply "good".

That works for me. :smoke

DLH is NOT an ATG. I think he may be as close to one as e have in this era though.

But what does that say about anyone ele fighting today? DLH's resume is still better then that of anyoe else fighting IMHO, dspite the losses.

[jackiebrown]

Oscar makes the big money for a few reasons.

-He was a Gold Medalist with the heartwarming story of doing it for his deceased mother. That made him a name already as an amateur, as the Olympics have increasingly had less significance for boxers over the years and their future popularity.

-He's a Mexican-American. He can speak both Spanish and English and promote his fights and himself in both languages. The Latino market is a huge market in boxing.

-He has the looks to even attract female viewers.

Even when Oscar fights scrubs, he makes crazy money (though not as much as against top fighters). And even when he has dull or mediocre fights...his next PPV fight will still do solid-to-great numbers.

yes.. i'll give you the olmypics .. but i highly doubt him being able to speak is why people watch him .. yes you have lady veiwers... but if looks really made a cause for the ladies to watch ...wouldnt guys like floyd mayweather .. and other good looking boxers do huge numbers too? ...

i think people like it when he throws the left hook ...more then the whole talking thing ...

could it be that this cat does great numbers because hes only been in like 2 or 3 boring fights? .. perhaps

[tays001]

Fine:bart

but DLH is an ICON :deal :hey

the man can buty your house and have you one the street and you would still buy his fight:yep

[Amsterdam]

That works for me. :smoke

DLH is NOT an ATG. I think he may be as close to one as e have in this era though.

But what does that say about anyone ele fighting today? DLH's resume is still better then that of anyoe else fighting IMHO, dspite the losses.

Other era's tend to get overrated as time goes on.

[Lance_Uppercut]

Other era's tend to get overrated as time goes on.

So does that mean DLH's stock will rise to ATG status some day?

[Asterion]

Amsterdam, who in this era (well, since 1990) do you think is an ATG?

[Marnoff]

because the guy actually fights... he dosnt beg for more money then hes worth .. then go out there and try to make love to his opponets arms ...

i cant stand bernard hopkin fights...

its not like oscar is the only big money draw to ever get "the big fights" .. i dont think oscar "wanted" to fight hopkins when he knew he was gonna get beat ... he didnt "want" to fight the crazy ass wild man from ghana in ike quartey ... oscar could have sat back his whole career and made millions fighting the troy dorseys and the gabrelle ruelases of the world .. but now he wanted to give the fucking fans something to watch in the idea that MAYBE ..just maybe ..they might respect him for it ...

but no .. oscars greedy... oscars the golden boy .. oscar isnt an all time great...

yall are a shame to the sport of boxing .... a man who made millions fighting the absalute best talent in the world .. and you guys have the nerve to call him anything but an all time great....

same cat coulda made the same amount of cash fighting stiffs ... fewer hard fights makes more easier fights.. means more money in the long run ... incase yall needed someone to do the math for you ....

Emotional responses don't change anything. This isn't about whether he could have made money fighting other people than he did fight. It's about where he ranks all-time. That's all. This isn't about his heart or his desire or commitment, necessarily, it's about his accomplishments, what he did or didn't do.

[Marnoff]

Why all the hate for Hops? He hasnt had the kind of career Oscar has? Based on what? Selling tickets? Hops is at least one level above Hops. I can at least imagine Hops hanging with Fab four of the 80's. Can you imagine DLH not getting knocked out by Hearns if he barely survived Quartey. Hops has had GREAT performances against all types of fighters and sometimes been the underdog like against the Bigger Tarver and Tito who people say was too small but at the same time admit Tito was a starved WW. Just for the fact alone that Hops at least fought Winky which is something Oscar would never do should keep Hops name out of this.

Hopkins is head and shoulders above Oscar. I don't know why he was brought into this thread in a negative light. Uncalled for.

[Thread Stealer]

yes.. i'll give you the olmypics .. but i highly doubt him being able to speak is why people watch him .. yes you have lady veiwers... but if looks really made a cause for the ladies to watch ...wouldnt guys like floyd mayweather .. and other good looking boxers do huge numbers too? ...

i think people like it when he throws the left hook ...more then the whole talking thing ...

could it be that this cat does great numbers because hes only been in like 2 or 3 boring fights? .. perhaps

Oscar really hasn't been all that exciting as you make him out to be. He may not be boring, but he's not exactly Erik Morales or Manny Pacquiao either.

Look at his fights since 1999:

Quartey: rounds 6 and 12 were excellent, the rest of the fight was very tactical and pretty low on action.

Carr: pretty good fight. Carr was more competitive than expected.

Trinidad: mediocre fight in action, big dissapointment.

Coley: pretty good one-sided fight. De La Hoya was aggressive and beat him down.

Mosley I: excellent, fast-paced bout between two terrific fighters.

Gatti: entertaining one-sided beatdown.

Castillejo: this fight was pretty shitty, although I don't blame Oscar for it.

Vargas: excellent competitive, close bout. DLH's most exciting IMO.

Campas: alright, one-sided beating in a mismatch.

Mosley II: decent. It was rather low in action for the first 7-8 rounds until Mosley picked it up, and DLH fought back in return.

Sturm: pretty good fight with a lot of leather thrown.

Hopkins: mediocre fight.

Mayorga: entertaining beatdown

Mayweather: decent.

[Marnoff]

I believe Hopkins would have been competitive during the 80's as well, but he lacked the great competition at middleweight that the guys from the 80's had in each other. He earned his status by staying consistent and winning and winning, but he truly never faced another great middleweight besides Jones, and he lost that fight although competitively.

I believe Hopkins would have come out the cream of the crop of the fab four if he had been in that time period. Very hypothetical, but I see him taking out Hagler (by decision), and doing the same to the other, smaller ones.

I see him probably smothering Hearns and taking it to him ala Hagler. Duran is simply too small. Leonard would have been a severe test, but I can see him winning it.

Either way, that's a post for another thread.

[jackiebrown]

uhh sorry man .. im not the one who makes him out to be anything .. its the half a million people ..."you guys" .. who keep buying this so called "non all time great" .. fighters pay per views...

leave it to the internet boys ... i dont blame you guys really ...i've seen people on here .. as well as other websites ..try to say mohamid fucking ali aint that great...

its the world of the internet ..people can say anything on here and not regret it .. thats all

[Robbi]

Oscar really hasn't been all that exciting as you make him out to be. He may not be boring, but he's not exactly Erik Morales or Manny Pacquiao either.

Look at his fights since 1999:

Quartey: rounds 6 and 12 were excellent, the rest of the fight was very tactical and pretty low on action.

Carr: pretty good fight. Carr was more competitive than expected.

Trinidad: mediocre fight in action, big dissapointment.

Coley: pretty good one-sided fight. De La Hoya was aggressive and beat him down.

Mosley I: excellent, fast-paced bout between two terrific fighters.

Gatti: entertaining one-sided beatdown.

Castillejo: this fight was pretty shitty, although I don't blame Oscar for it.

Vargas: excellent competitive, close bout. DLH's most exciting IMO.

Campas: alright, one-sided beating in a mismatch.

Mosley II: decent. It was rather low in action for the first 7-8 rounds until Mosley picked it up, and DLH fought back in return.

Sturm: pretty good fight with a lot of leather thrown.

Hopkins: mediocre fight.

Mayorga: entertaining beatdown

Mayweather: decent.

I'm a massive De La Hoya fan, and I'd say he's been in three "edge of your seat" type of fights over the last 10 years. I'm going to be as fair as possible with my opinion here, and not every single round of these fights were hell for leather.

Chavez II
Mosley I
Vargas

[jackiebrown]

Emotional responses don't change anything. This isn't about whether he could have made money fighting other people than he did fight. It's about where he ranks all-time. That's all. This isn't about his heart or his desire or commitment, necessarily, it's about his accomplishments, what he did or didn't do. roy jones jr is an all time great.... why aint oscar delahoya? ...

nobody bothered to even come close to answering my post from earlier ...

sal sanchez... dead at 23 ... only big wins came agianst danny lopez... wilfredo gomez who was small ... and fuckin zoom zoom .. who only had like 14 15 fights and was green as a frog ...

but hes an all time great right?... soooo tell me why oscar delahoya isnt agian?

[bigtime9]

Oscar has many wins over B class opponents and past-their-prime ATGs in Chavez/Whitaker, but against the great fighters he did face that were still at or near their primes, he lost (which is a big deal when considering this because they were career defining fights). He's had an abundance of close/controversial decisions as well.


I don't buy the chavez and whitaker were washed up excuse. both chavez and whitaker came to win, but they faced the better fighter that night. ask tito and oscar what they got for fucking with "old man" hopkins:deal you have to take into account whitaker's and chavez's abuse of cocaine being a reason why they lost so much in their early thirties. If chavez and whitaker had won then they would have gotten the glory.

with that said oscar's predicament is the fact that he lost to his peers. The career of oscar will show him as an ATG top 50, but he is no legend. Those fighters are few and far between in our era. We have plenty of ATG's like:

1. Roy Jones Jr.
2. James Toney
3. Bernard Hopkins
4. Tito Trinidad
5. Shane Mosley
6. Oscar De La hoya

oscar could have become a legend if he actually koed tito, beaten mosley, and beat b-hop for the true middleweight championship. but he didn't so he could never be compared with ray leonard, ray robinson, or henry armstrong.


De La Hoya certainly deserves the title of "great" but it's questionable whether or not he is an ATG (same category as the Hearns', Leonard's, Duran's, Whitaker's, Chavez's, Hagler's, Jones's, etc). A case can definitely be made, but I am not one who thinks he is.


I slightly disagree if you put chavez, duran and whitaker as ATG then Oscar belongs on that list. oscar made over 17 title defenses in his career more than duran and more than chavez. oscar like duran won titles in four weight classes ( I don't count the wbo). While oscar is no legend I still consider him an ATG fighter for his era.

[Thread Stealer]

uhh sorry man .. im not the one who makes him out to be anything .. its the half a million people ..."you guys" .. who keep buying this so called "non all time great" .. fighters pay per views...

leave it to the internet boys ... i dont blame you guys really ...i've seen people on here .. as well as other websites ..try to say mohamid fucking ali aint that great...

its the world of the internet ..people can say anything on here and not regret it .. thats all

So you think all those fights since 1999 were exciting?

Oscar's simply not as exciting of an action fighter as you implied. He's not boring, but he's not especially exciting in terms of action.

Now the magnitude of the event is another story, when he has a big fight.

[Lance_Uppercut]

uhh sorry man .. im not the one who makes him out to be anything .. its the half a million people ..."you guys" .. who keep buying this so called "non all time great" .. fighters pay per views...

leave it to the internet boys ... i dont blame you guys really ...i've seen people on here .. as well as other websites ..try to say mohamid fucking ali aint that great...

its the world of the internet ..people can say anything on here and not regret it .. thats all

All the people do is make him a sellable commodity. A draw. Fans do NOT make someone an ATG because they can attract a ton.

[Lance_Uppercut]

I don't buy the chavez and whitaker were washed up excuse. both chavez and whitaker came to win, but they faced the better fighter that night. ask tito and oscar what they got for fucking with "old man" hopkins:deal you have to take into account whitaker's and chavez's abuse of cocaine being a reason why they lost so much in their early thirties. If chavez and whitaker had won then they would have gotten the glory.

with that said oscar's predicament is the fact that he lost to his peers. The career of oscar will show him as an ATG top 50, but he is no legend. Those fighters are few and far between in our era. We have plenty of ATG's like:

1. Roy Jones Jr.
2. James Toney
3. Bernard Hopkins
4. Tito Trinidad
5. Shane Mosley
6. Oscar De La hoya

oscar could have become a legend if he actually koed tito, beaten mosley, and beat b-hop for the true middleweight championship. but he didn't so he could never be compared with ray leonard, ray robinson, or henry armstrong.




I slightly disagree if you put chavez, duran and whitaker as ATG then Oscar belongs on that list. oscar made over 17 title defenses in his career more than duran and more than chavez. oscar like duran won titles in four weight classes ( I don't count the wbo). While oscar is no legend I still consider him an ATG fighter for his era.

And you made Floyd a Top 3 ATG by BEATING DLH? :patsch

Are you even aware of how often you contradict yourself? Probably not you clueless racist fuck..

[Thread Stealer]

I'm a massive De La Hoya fan, and I'd say he's been in three "edge of your seat" type of fights over the last 10 years. I'm going to be as fair as possible with my opinion here, and not every single round of these fights were hell for leather.

Chavez II
Mosley I
Vargas

Yeah, I liked the Vargas fight the best, then Mosley. The Chavez rematch was pretty good. De La Hoya gave Chavez more chances to land in the rematch since he fought more aggressive than usual.

[Thread Stealer]

I slightly disagree if you put chavez, duran and whitaker as ATG then Oscar belongs on that list. oscar made over 17 title defenses in his career more than duran and more than chavez. oscar like duran won titles in four weight classes ( I don't count the wbo). While oscar is no legend I still consider him an ATG fighter for his era.

:lol: :lol:

If you don't include the WBO, De La Hoya made less than 17 title defenses.

Chavez never had a WBO belt, but made at least 25 title defenses in his career.

[Amsterdam]

So does that mean DLH's stock will rise to ATG status some day?

No, but you said 'he is as close to an ATG as this era gets'. Are Hopkins and Jones not ATG's? DLH's peak was in their era's also.

Technically, this is a new era and DLH's not really apart of it.

[Sonny Carson]

roy jones jr is an all time great.... why aint oscar delahoya? ...

nobody bothered to even come close to answering my post from earlier ...

sal sanchez... dead at 23 ... only big wins came agianst danny lopez... wilfredo gomez who was small ... and fuckin zoom zoom .. who only had like 14 15 fights and was green as a frog ...

but hes an all time great right?... soooo tell me why oscar delahoya isnt agian?
Gomez and Nelson were great fighter's. Danny Lopez was a very good fighter. Oscar never beat anybody as good as Gomez or Nelson. He had his chance against Floyd and he blew it.

[Calroid]

ATG probably not. HOF definately! Just one question about the fading, aged, past his prime Whitaker (That everyone seems to point out) that DLH fought. Wasn't he (Whitaker) still regarded as the number two P4P fighter (behind Jones) at the time that DLH fought him?

[Amsterdam]

Amsterdam, who in this era (well, since 1990) do you think is an ATG?

Since 1990? I assume you mean mass recognition after 1990 where success went into the 2000's, so okay.

Roy Jones Jr
Bernard Hopkins
James Toney
Ricardo Lopez
Marco Antonio Barrera/Erik Morales
Lennox Lewis

Chavez, Whitaker etc. were done by the mid 90's.

Then you have 'greats/HOF/elite' fighters who are not 'ATG's' in DLH, Trinidad, Mosely, Forrest, Casamayor... you could list out a lot, even guys like Chris Eubank would fall into the category of a 'great fighter' who is not an ATG by any means, the type of guy who can greatly enhance a resume if you beat clearly, which it would have for Jones in 92-94.

[Lance_Uppercut]

No, but you said 'he is as close to an ATG as this era gets'. Are Hopkins and Jones not ATG's? DLH's peak was in their era's also.

Technically, this is a new era and DLH's not really apart of it.

What makes Hopkins & Jones ATG's though? WHat criteria do they meet that DLH hasn't. But if you were just asking hypothetically on them, then my bad.

[Thread Stealer]

ATG probably not. HOF definately! Just one question about the fading, aged, past his prime Whitaker (That everyone seems to point out) that DLH fought. Wasn't he (Whitaker) still regarded as the number two P4P fighter (behind Jones) at the time that DLH fought him?

This is where Whitaker was on The Ring's annual year end poll. This was before Whitaker had hell with Hurtado in early 1997 though, so maybe he'd be a little lower.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

1996:

10) Yuri Arbachakov (11)
9) Azumah Nelson (12)
8 ) Ike Quartey (21)
7) Terry Norris (28 )
6) Ricardo Lopez (56)
5) Felix Trinidad (59)
4) Evander Holyfield (64)
3) Pernell Whitaker (92)
2) Oscar De La Hoya (107)
1) Roy Jones (123)

[Amsterdam]

What makes Hopkins & Jones ATG's though? WHat criteria do they meet that DLH hasn't. But if you were just asking hypothetically on them, then my bad.

Consistency. Like I said, DLH had the talent, but failed in multiple scenerio's that could have locked him great victories, even with Mayweather when he abandoned his jab and faded down the stretch...

Hopkins and Jones were almost viciously dominant at their best and at the best level in their respective weight classes, DLH was competitive but was never a true dominant force. Jones' competition looking back is right there to DLH's all around anyway and superior to Hopkins, it's also not just the 'win', it's 'how it was won' and Jones really has a great resume on top of being utterly dominating over that competition.

[bigtime9]

If you don't include the WBO, De La Hoya made less than 17 title defenses.

Chavez never had a WBO belt, but made at least 25 title defenses in his career.

I stand corrected, chavez had a total of 26 defenses in his career, oscar 16.

[Thread Stealer]

And you made Floyd a Top 3 ATG by BEATING DLH? :patsch

Are you even aware of how often you contradict yourself? Probably not you clueless racist fuck..

Maybe he can become editor of The Ring with that type of criteria.

Nigel Collins ranked Evander Holyfield as the #3 heavyweight of all-time immediately following his win over Mike Tyson.

Years later he uses the ridiculously overused and illogical argument to downgrade Tyson (who is actually a favorite of Collins) and says "Tyson was never a great fighter, even in his prime, because he never beat another great fighter in his prime".

Yep, Tyson was never great, but Holyfield catapults to #3 all-time by beating him! :huh

[Calroid]

This is where Whitaker was on The Ring's annual year end poll. This was before Whitaker had hell with Hurtado in early 1997 though, so maybe he'd be a little lower.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

1996:

10) Yuri Arbachakov (11)
9) Azumah Nelson (12)
8 ) Ike Quartey (21)
7) Terry Norris (28 )
6) Ricardo Lopez (56)
5) Felix Trinidad (59)
4) Evander Holyfield (64)
3) Pernell Whitaker (92)
2) Oscar De La Hoya (107)
1) Roy Jones (123)


Thanks. I wasn't sure.

[Lance_Uppercut]

Consistency. Like I said, DLH had the talent, but failed in multiple scenerio's that could have locked him great victories, even with Mayweather when he abandoned his jab and faded down the stretch...

Hopkins and Jones were almost viciously dominant at their best and at the best level in their respective weight classes, DLH was competitive but was never a true dominant force. Jones' competition looking back is right there to DLH's all around anyway and superior to Hopkins, it's also not just the 'win', it's 'how it was won' and Jones really has a great resume on top of being utterly dominating over that competition.

Jones and Hopkins faced to many mere contenders. I happen to take the the 'degree of difficulty' approach when looking at resume's.

If DLH stayed at one or two weight class for the majority of his career and feasted on no name contender, similarly to the guy in your av, he too would have probably looked like SRR.

Now I won't say Hopkins and Jones did NOT face tough opp, just their careers are tainted, IMHO, by too much mediocre opposition.

Jones SHOULD have faced, and this is regardless of who's fault, Darius M, Vasilly, Gereld McCLellen, or Nigel Benn. They were all top fighters inor around his division. And I know it's not possible to face EVERYONE, some of these should have happened.

As for Hopkins, his resume is one of the weakest IMO. Yes he beat some good fighters, but nothing to really seperate him fomr DLH's resume.

[Robbi]

I believe Hopkins would have come out the cream of the crop of the fab four if he had been in that time period. Very hypothetical, but I see him taking out Hagler (by decision), and doing the same to the other, smaller ones.

I see him probably smothering Hearns and taking it to him ala Hagler. Duran is simply too small. Leonard would have been a severe test, but I can see him winning it.

Either way, that's a post for another thread.

While not many other posters would agree, I certianly do.

Duran made a prime Hagler look ordinary over 15 rounds with his cute defensive work from the outside behind the jab, mixed in with the odd right hand. Leonard's movement and ring generalship combined with combinations edged out Hagler. Hopkins has the toughness to match Hagler when the going got tough, but his tactical awareness and outside work would be the key areas for victory. I pick Hopkins via decision.

Hearns' boxing ability and right hand are weapons Hopkins would struggle with, no question. But Hopkins had a better defense than Hearns. Sure, Hopkins has nothing more than respectable power, not chilling, but enough to stop Hearns during the late rounds. I also believe Hopkins has the chin to hold up under Hearns' right hand. Hopkins late stoppage.

Leonard would present Hopkins with the toughest challenge. He maybe never had Hearns' power, or Hagler's strength, but he had "know now". Leonard could take a punch, and knew when to strike, and when to defend. He was a very well balanced thinking fighter, very much like Hopkins himself. Leonard would look to get inside, like he did against Hearns' in their first fight, but he'd find Hopkins too cute. Leonard would say after the fight "This guy is like Hearns and Hagler in one body, he's got the height and reach like Tommy, nice jabs as well, and once inside he was strong just like Marvin was, he deserved the decision tonight". Hopkins via decision.

Too strong in all areas for Duran. Im not saying for one minute Duran wouldn't be competitive, because he sure would. He never took Hagler 15 rounds with smoke and mirrors, as he fought a fine fight. But Hopkins was much taller than Hagler, who stood at 5'9" compared to Hopkins' 6'1". Hopkins' had Hagler's defensive ability at long range, and a bit more. If Duran dared close the distance, he'd get cracked with uppercuts, and straight right hands. One thing is for certain, If Hagler can beat Duran in 3rd gear with a cautious approach your damn sure Hopkins can do the same. Hopkins via decision.

[ROC]

It's undisputed that he was an elite and is a future first ballot Hall of Fame fighter, but DLH does not deserve the title of ATG and I have been reviewing his entire run a little more lately.

Let's look at the evidence:

- A controversial win against Whitaker, people are 50/50 on this one, but it was close and an old Whitaker at that who had just struggled greatly with Hurtado.

- A *gift* over Quartey. Note that I did not say 'controversial win', because this one was pretty clear and it's more like 80% of boxing fans scored this for Quartey. Ike was robbed.

- A close loss against Trinidad, that was FAIR. DLH fanboys act like DLH was robbed, but this fight was absolutely a close fight that could have been a draw or a very close Trinidad win and I just watched this the other day and came out with a draw myself, giving Trinidad 2 of the early rounds and DLH's running down the stretch is not even needed for discussion.

- Two losses to Mosely, which this is not a big deal as they were competitive, but lets add them in for the sake of the discussion.

- *Gift* against Sturm. Out of shape sure, but a loss no less in my book and this is universally considered.

- KO 9 loss against Hopkins, no big deal here, but throw it on regardless.

- Avoided Tszyu, Forrest etc. and always fought with his own stipulations in the vein of Ray Leonard.

....................

Best wins -

- Chavez x 2, an older Chavez though.

- Controversial over an older Whitaker, would have been GOOD if it were clear.

- Vargas

- Molina

- Leveled all B level competition very well(I take this into consideration, because it shows the level that he is, which was elite).

...............

So, we have a very good fighter and an undisputed elite level and future Hall of Famer, but he came up short against the other P4P level comp and while being competitive against them, this is still coming up short. He is also a very flawed fighter, with a weak mentality and this is why he was brought along in a protected way and why HE came up short when he absolutely could have won, as he was a phenominal 'talent', which is not disputed.

There you go guys, discuss.:hat
Totally bias as you are not a true fair minded boxing fan!!
Where are you getting the statistics that has 80% of people saying that he really lost to Quartey. "Those people" are are not really boxing
fans!! Oscar won that fight in the 12th with the little beat down he gave Quartey in the only exciting round of that fight.Robbery my ass!! Whitaker clowned around and landed what appeared to be punches but if you slow the fight down it is evident he wasn't landing shit. Oscar knotted up Pea's eye pretty good. No controversey there either. Beat Mosely in their second fight by being the better and quicker boxer and was robbed. Gave Tito a boxing lesson and had him confused all nite. He ran the last three rounds but was ahead comfortably, a close loss you say,give me a fuckin' break guy!! It was a huge Gift for Tito and he knew it because he cried like a baby after the decision was announced. I give you Sturm, Oscar looked like shit and out of shape but still was able to hurt Sturm and make it close.
The man has never duck any fighter so, for you to even mention that is ridiculous. People seem to forget that during the nineties Oscar fought and beat the top two Welters in Tito and Ike. but of course the man will always be criticized for the way he chooses to win fights.:think

[Thread Stealer]

Totally bias as you are not a true fair minded boxing fan!!
Where are you getting the statistics that has 80% of people saying that he really lost to Quartey. "Those people" are are not really boxing
fans!! Oscar won that fight in the 12th with the little beat down he gave Quartey in the only exciting round of that fight.Robbery my ass!!

If De La Hoya won that fight, it was by the skin of his teeth in the 12th, and being generous to him.

[jackiebrown]

All the people do is make him a sellable commodity. A draw. Fans do NOT make someone an ATG because they can attract a ton. true...but fighting every possible decent good..great fighter of your era DOES

like i said ..its the internet ...i've heard people down every great fighter that ever lived ....what else would you guys have to talk about .. the first 3 years was spent bullshitting about how great the greats are ...last 3 years have been spent bullshitting about how the greats were over rated....
now im just waiting for the

what would happen if "insert great fighter" ..didnt have a left arm or a right testical .. then what....
threads to start up

[ROC]

I don't buy the chavez and whitaker were washed up excuse. both chavez and whitaker came to win, but they faced the better fighter that night. ask tito and oscar what they got for fucking with "old man" hopkins:deal you have to take into account whitaker's and chavez's abuse of cocaine being a reason why they lost so much in their early thirties. If chavez and whitaker had won then they would have gotten the glory.

with that said oscar's predicament is the fact that he lost to his peers. The career of oscar will show him as an ATG top 50, but he is no legend. Those fighters are few and far between in our era. We have plenty of ATG's like:

1. Roy Jones Jr.
2. James Toney
3. Bernard Hopkins
4. Tito Trinidad
5. Shane Mosley
6. Oscar De La hoya

oscar could have become a legend if he actually koed tito, beaten mosley, and beat b-hop for the true middleweight championship. but he didn't so he could never be compared with ray leonard, ray robinson, or henry armstrong.




I slightly disagree if you put chavez, duran and whitaker as ATG then Oscar belongs on that list. oscar made over 17 title defenses in his career more than duran and more than chavez. oscar like duran won titles in four weight classes ( I don't count the wbo). While oscar is no legend I still consider him an ATG fighter for his era.

I don't agree with Tito being ahead of Oscar, in every true boxing fans eyes, Oscar beat Tito and IMO had a better performance against Hopkins before throwing the fight. He has never ducked anyone so for anyone to even say that is out of whacked.

[Lance_Uppercut]

true...but fighting every possible decent good..great fighter of your era DOES

like i said ..its the internet ...i've heard people down every great fighter that ever lived ....what else would you guys have to talk about .. the first 3 years was spent bullshitting about how great the greats are ...last 3 years have been spent bullshitting about how the greats were over rated....
now im just waiting for the

what would happen if "insert great fighter" ..didnt have a left arm or a right testical .. then what....
threads to start up

It's not only a matter of FIGHTING them, but beating them as well. DLH's record against his peers shows he's closer to their level, then way above them. And whether you take this as an excuse or what, the shape of the opponent is taken into consideration as well.

[Marnoff]

While not many other posters would agree, I certianly do.

Duran made a prime Hagler look ordinary over 15 rounds with his cute defensive work from the outside behind the jab, mixed in with the odd right hand. Leonard's movement and ring generalship combined with combinations edged out Hagler. Hopkins has the toughness to match Hagler when the going got tough, but his tactical awareness and outside work would be the key areas for victory. I pick Hopkins via decision.

Hearns' boxing ability and right hand are weapons Hopkins would struggle with, no question. But Hopkins had a better defense than Hearns. Sure, Hopkins has nothing more than respectable power, not chilling, but enough to stop Hearns during the late rounds. I also believe Hopkins has the chin to hold up under Hearns' right hand. Hopkins late stoppage.

Leonard would present Hopkins with the toughest challenge. He maybe never had Hearns' power, or Hagler's strength, but he had "know now". Leonard could take a punch, and knew when to strike, and when to defend. He was a very well balanced thinking fighter, very much like Hopkins himself. Leonard would look to get inside, like he did against Hearns' in their first fight, but he'd find Hopkins too cute. Leonard would say after the fight "This guy is like Hearns and Hagler in one body, he's got the height and reach like Tommy, nice jabs as well, and once inside he was strong just like Marvin was, he deserved the decision tonight". Hopkins via decision.

Too strong in all areas for Duran. Im not saying for one minute Duran wouldn't be competitive, because he sure would. He never took Hagler 15 rounds with smoke and mirrors, as he fought a fine fight. But Hopkins was much taller than Hagler, who stood at 5'9" compared to Hopkins' 6'1". Hopkins' had Hagler's defensive ability at long range, and a bit more. If Duran dared close the distance, he'd get cracked with uppercuts, and straight right hands. One thing is for certain, If Hagler can beat Duran in 3rd gear with a cautious approach your damn sure Hopkins can do the same. Hopkins via decision.

Well said. That is essentially my take on it, also.

[Robbi]

As I said earlier, De La Hoya is one of my favourite fighters of all time. Is he an ATG?. Yes, but not a top tier ATG like Leonard, Duran, Robinson, Pep, Whitaker, Ali, Armstrong, etc. Too many questionable decisions throughout his career either way to be among the very elite ATG's.

But he's won titles in 5 different divisions, and fought the very best of his era. If your going to lose, make sure its against other ATG fighters. De La Hoya wasn't beaten by an Iran Barkley like Hearns was in 1988.

De La Hoya has had a very confusing and debatable career. Quartey, Trinidad, Sturm, Mosley I and II, Mayweather. All reasonably close fights, depending who you are out there.

[huki]

Totally bias as you are not a true fair minded boxing fan!!
Where are you getting the statistics that has 80% of people saying that he really lost to Quartey. "Those people" are are not really boxing
fans!! Oscar won that fight in the 12th with the little beat down he gave Quartey in the only exciting round of that fight.Robbery my ass!! Whitaker clowned around and landed what appeared to be punches but if you slow the fight down it is evident he wasn't landing shit. Oscar knotted up Pea's eye pretty good. No controversey there either. Beat Mosely in their second fight by being the better and quicker boxer and was robbed. Gave Tito a boxing lesson and had him confused all nite. He ran the last three rounds but was ahead comfortably, a close loss you say,give me a fuckin' break guy!! It was a huge Gift for Tito and he knew it because he cried like a baby after the decision was announced. I give you Sturm, Oscar looked like shit and out of shape but still was able to hurt Sturm and make it close.
The man has never duck any fighter so, for you to even mention that is ridiculous. People seem to forget that during the nineties Oscar fought and beat the top two Welters in Tito and Ike. but of course the man will always be criticized for the way he chooses to win fights.:think
Haha, your post was beaming with oscarsexuality and when you said "Oscar looked like shit and out of shape but still was able to hurt Sturm and make it close" it just confirmed it. You are being more bias than anyone in here. To you, every close Oscar fight is a win for him and anytime he loses a close fight it's a pure robbery.

I agree that Oscar is not an "ATG" fighter in that he's not a top 100 p4p atg.. just a fighter who was elite at an impressive number of weight classes, had a great resume, and put up many good efforts, even in his losses. His popularity helped his career in a huge way and will make legacy better, which is unfair to many great fighters that didn't get fame, but oh well.

[Marnoff]

I don't agree with Tito being ahead of Oscar, in every true boxing fans eyes, Oscar beat Tito and IMO had a better performance against Hopkins before throwing the fight. He has never ducked anyone so for anyone to even say that is out of whacked.

So hang on. You're a "true boxing fan", but you believe for some odd reason Oscar would throw a fight (any fight), when he's already getting tens of millions each time out? Hmm, I'd like to hear your logic. Anyone who believes Oscar threw the fight is a fucking idiot. It would make absolutely no sense for him to do that, at all. A win over Hopkins would have been tremendous.

[Thread Stealer]

Come on, Oscar didn't throw the fight.

Quit? Maybe. He'd hardly be the first fighter to quit in a fight, especially an accomplished (and rich) fighter on the downside or latter portion of his career.

But throwing the fight? Come on now.

[Lance_Uppercut]

Come on, Oscar didn't throw the fight.

Quit? Maybe. He'd hardly be the first fighter to quit in a fight, especially an accomplished (and rich) fighter on the downside or latter portion of his career.

But throwing the fight? Come on now.

To actually THROW a fight, he has to have a shot at winning. He had none IMHO.

What I think is he took the fall and stayed down.

[Robbi]

Come on, Oscar didn't throw the fight.

Quit? Maybe. He'd hardly be the first fighter to quit in a fight, especially an accomplished (and rich) fighter on the downside or latter portion of his career.

But throwing the fight? Come on now.

De La Hoya against Hopkins. The only fight in his entire career in which I never gave him much of a chance.

[ROC]

If De La Hoya won that fight, it was by the skin of his teeth in the 12th, and being generous to him.

A win is still a win, bro. how many boxers win by the skin of their teeth and it is accepted but if it is Oscar getting by everybody starts getting on him for the way he won the fight. Every fighter should be allowed to win a fight the way he feels is the best way to beat his opponent. You guys should be getting on Mayweather more often, I don't think the man has ever stood in there and slugged it out with any of his opponent!

[Thread Stealer]

A win is still a win, bro. how many boxers win by the skin of their teeth and it is accepted but if it is Oscar getting by everybody starts getting on him for the way he won the fight.


I'm talking about people suggesting that De La Hoya clearly beat Quartey because of the 12th. That is simply ridiculous, and you have to be generous to DLH in the scoring to give him the fight.

Every fighter should be allowed to win a fight the way he feels is the best way to beat his opponent. You guys should be getting on Mayweather more often, I don't think the man has ever stood in there and slugged it out with any of his opponent!

Then apparently you haven't watched enough of Mayweather.

[Robbi]

If Hearns can lose to Leonard, and draw, lose to Hagler inside three rounds, then get knocked out and also lose a decision to Barkley. He aint much better than De La Hoya.

Note: Don't come back and say Hearns' was robbed against Leonard in their rematch, because someone could say De La Hoya really beat Trinidad. Lets deal with facts.

De La Hoya's defeats

Trinidad
Mosley x2
Hopkins
Mayweather

Hearns defeats/draws.

Leonard
Leonard draw
Hagler
Barkley x2.

One of Hearns biggest wins was against Duran, who was at least 4 years past his prime. He was around the same age as Chavez when De La Hoya beat him inside 4 rounds, and Chavez was equally as past his prime as Duran was, no question.


I really need to laugh when people say De La Hoya was not an ATG, Im not saying he was a top tier ATG, but give him some credit.

[jackiebrown]

It's not only a matter of FIGHTING them, but beating them as well. DLH's record against his peers shows he's closer to their level, then way above them. And whether you take this as an excuse or what, the shape of the opponent is taken into consideration as well.

so by that logic .. 70 % of legit all time greats ...arent even all time greats...lovely

[Thread Stealer]

look at duran, sure he was possibly the greatest lightweight to ever live, but against the true greats he fought (leonardx3, hearns, hagler, benitez) he was 1-5, was kayoed brutally by hearns, quit against leonard in the rematch and was outclassed heavily in the rubber match and also lost clearly to hagler and benitez. with duran people ignore this record and hold his lightweight career and his win over leonard as enough to qualify him as an ATG. yet with Hoya it's the 1st thing they bring up to deny him that status.

If you're the greatest ever in a traditional weight class like lightweight, you're pretty much already granted ATG status. Duran was already the fighter of the 70s and arguably the greatest lightweight ever before all the fights with the Fab 4.

[Robbi]

Why not?

Oscar is being trashed for his best wins coming over overmatched guys, and for not being able to beat any prime truly great fighters he faced in their divisions. Look at Hopkins, his best wins came against overmatched blown up Welterweights at Middleweight and a blown up Winky at Lt. Heavy. The only time he faced a prime true great he wasn't bigger than, Roy schooled him with one hand. If you hold all that shit against Hoya about not beating a prime true great, you gotta hold the same standards to B-Hop, Tito, and the rest of them.

All I know is Roy Jones and Ricardo Lopez are probably the only non-heavy true greats of the last 15 years. If you start to include the likes of Toney, Hopkins, Trinidad, Mosley, i won't argue with you, but you have to include Oscar aswell if you do, p4p he's on par with them definately.

Hagler's biggest wins. All oppnents moving up in weight. Hearns, Duran, Mugabi, Leonard.

Hopkins was never taken the distance with anyone as small as Duran, who stood at 5'7" and was 25lbs above his prime weight. Leonard and Hearns were damn fine middleweights, but were clearly in their primes at 147/154lbs, no question about it. And once Mugabi was handed his ass he wasn't long in moving back down again where he belonged.

Im not saying you disagree, but just making the comparison with Hopkins' career.

And one thing for certain, Trinidad and Hearns had around the same power at 160lbs, and don't tell me Hearns was bigger than Trinidad on the nights then shared rings with Hagler and Hopkins.

[jackiebrown]

If Hearns can lose to Leonard, and draw, lose to Hagler inside three rounds, then get knocked out and also lose a decision to Barkley. He aint much better than De La Hoya.

Note: Don't come back and say Hearns' was robbed against Leonard in their rematch, because someone could say De La Hoya really beat Trinidad. Lets deal with facts.

De La Hoya's defeats

Trinidad
Mosley x2
Hopkins
Mayweather

Hearns defeats/draws.

Leonard
Leonard draw
Hagler
Barkley x2.

One of Hearns biggest wins was against Duran, who was at least 4 years past his prime. He was around the same age as Chavez when De La Hoya beat him inside 4 rounds, and Chavez was equally as past his prime as Duran was, no question.


I really need to laugh when people say De La Hoya was not an ATG, Im not saying he was a top tier ATG, but give him some credit.the same people that say oscar isnt an all time great are the same cats who jump on stupid bandwagons of undeafeated fighters then hop right back off at the closes sight of a loss

the internet boxing fan will not tolorate loseing...what with god mode fight night 3 they can just sign on and beat the computer to a pulp and prove their greatness

[ROC]

So hang on. You're a "true boxing fan", but you believe for some odd reason Oscar would throw a fight (any fight), when he's already getting tens of millions each time out? Hmm, I'd like to hear your logic. Anyone who believes Oscar threw the fight is a fucking idiot. It would make absolutely no sense for him to do that, at all. A win over Hopkins would have been tremendous.

There isn't anything odd about throwing a fight, buddy it has been done before and for u to be so closed minded in that sense isn't very logical on yout part. ( I heard Hopkins staged that shoving incident with Winky during their pre-fight press conference so things like that do happen) And win over Oscar is a tremendous victory on his resume and for his title defense streak at that time. Oscar probably also felt that since Hopkins was coming on strong, he would avoid a further beating and decided to take a dive. And remember how they became the best of buddies after their fight. And their must be a alot of idiots out there because that was a tap shot to Oscar's body. I'd say that is pretty logical. :hey

[Robbi]

Time for bed. And i'll say a closing statement. Too much goes on when looking through the magnifying glass at fighters careers. Its just a joke at times. Marvin Hagler, one of the greatest fighters of the last 30 years, and generally considered by some as the greatest middleweight of all time. Yet, his career can be brought down as well. Enough said.

"He never fought this guy", "he ducked this guy", "he was robbed by the judges", "no way did he fight him in his prime", "he was knocked out easy". Dont look too much into it and be so critical everyone.

[Lance_Uppercut]

so by that logic .. 70 % of legit all time greats ...arent even all time greats...lovely


No. But if that's what you think, go nuts. :good

[ROC]

You are an Oscarsexual faggot. Go back to San Fransisco and get on the Gay Pride Parade where you belong.


I forgot you are the guy that has Oscar's dick so far up his ass that every thing you write about includes Oscar, even when it is about another fighter. I hear everyone ridicules you and considers you a queer. Stay off the man's dick will you. You are a disgrace the way you are always talking about Oscar and not to mention unprofessional. Get a clue Jackass!:good

[doom bull]

I root against DLH but think he is a Hall of Famer and ATG.

[ROC]

I'm talking about people suggesting that De La Hoya clearly beat Quartey because of the 12th. That is simply ridiculous, and you have to be generous to DLH in the scoring to give him the fight.

He showed that he wanted it more in a tenitive fight that didn't have much excitement so i agree with the scoring. but oscar isn't allowed to win fights like that rite?




Then apparently you haven't watched enough of Mayweather.

I have watched enough to see that he's is a runner and not a fighter

[Thread Stealer]

I have watched enough to see that he's is a runner and not a fighter

That's just dumb.

[Thread Stealer]

He showed that he wanted it more in a tenitive fight that didn't have much excitement so i agree with the scoring. but oscar isn't allowed to win fights like that rite?


I'm not talking about him being tenative or defensive. I don't have much of a problem with it.

I'm talking about people saying Oscar won the Quartey fight clearly because of the 12th. That's ridiculous scoring.

[ROC]

To actually THROW a fight, he has to have a shot at winning. He had none IMHO.

What I think is he took the fall and stayed down.

He had a chance in my opinion but felt Hopkins getting stronger and a beating coming on when he wasn't able to hurt Hopkins so decided to just fall with whatever came his way. That's my opinion on it.

[bigtime9]

look at duran, sure he was possibly the greatest lightweight to ever live, but against the true greats he fought (leonardx3, hearns, hagler, benitez) he was 1-5, was kayoed brutally by hearns, quit against leonard in the rematch and was outclassed heavily in the rubber match and also lost clearly to hagler and benitez. with duran people ignore this record and hold his lightweight career and his win over leonard as enough to qualify him as an ATG. yet with Hoya it's the 1st thing they bring up to deny him that status.

I agree, if duran who had an average career from 1980 until 1998 is afforded ATG status then hoya deserves that distinction as well. I have duran top 30 oscar would be top 50. where you place them is a matter of opinion.

both would have been legendary if they had won all of their big fights

[Thread Stealer]

He had a chance in my opinion but felt Hopkins getting stronger and a beating coming on when he wasn't able to hurt Hopkins so decided to just fall with whatever came his way. That's my opinion on it.

When people say "throwing the fight", I take it as what Bruce Willis was supposed to do in Pulp Fiction, or the guy in The Set-Up. Going into the fight planning to go down or lose for profit, or whatever.

Trying hard to win but losing your confidence or whatever and then quitting, I don't think of as "throwing a fight". It just means you gave up, or your opponent took your heart, etc...

[Thread Stealer]

I agree, if duran who had an average career from 1980 until 1998 is afforded ATG status then hoya deserves that distinction as well. I have duran top 30 oscar would be top 50. where you place them is a matter of opinion.

both would have been legendary if they had won all of their big fights

Duran had a good 6 year stretch as the lightweight champion and is considered by many #1 in a traditional weight class. That pretty much gets him all-time great status alone.

Is any fighter top 3 or so in a traditional weight class and not an ATG? I can't think of anyone off the top of my head.

[ROC]

I'm not talking about him being tenative or defensive. I don't have much of a problem with it.

I'm talking about people saying Oscar won the Quartey fight clearly because of the 12th. That's ridiculous scoring.

Maybe it was because the whole fight was a bore up until that round.
IMO it was a close fight but the decision was just and it should take away what Oscar had to do to when the fight. Mostly everyone points to that round as the defining factor of the fight.

[Thread Stealer]

Maybe it was because the whole fight was a bore up until that round.
IMO it was a close fight but the decision was just and it should take away what Oscar had to do to when the fight. Mostly everyone points to that round as the defining factor of the fight.

Being a bore doesn't make the decision just.

After 5, it's either 3-2 Oscar, 2-2-1, or 3-2 Ike. Let's go with 3-2 Oscar. Quartey wins round 6, because he controlled the round after the 2 knockdowns. That's 3-3 after 6. Oscar did hardly anything from rounds 7 thru 11. Both guys mainly stared at each other and threw jabs, but Ike did more work. If Oscar won 2 rounds clearly in that stretch of 7 thru 11, let me know which rounds and what he actually did in those rounds to win them clearly. Ike is up 7-4, and then 114-113 after the 12th.

If Oscar deserved the decision, it was by the skin of his teeth, AND being generous to him. That requires giving him 3 of the first 5 and 2 from rouds 7 thru 11, both of which is giving him the benefit of the doubt. This was probably the easiest of DLH's controversial fights to score, unlike say his fight with Whitaker, which was a nightmare to score (I had it even).

Ken Morita's card was disgraceful, but he should've been banned 9 years earlier when he had Tyson beating Douglas 87-86 after 9. His scoring in Tokyo was one of the worst scorecards ever.

DLH winning a narrow one is one thing, but saying he clearly won it is bullshit, much like people saying Tito definitely deserved to win over Oscar because of the last 3 rounds, while scoring it for Tito requires giving him the benefit of the doubt in every close round.

[bigtime9]

Duran had a good 6 year stretch as the lightweight champion and is considered by many #1 in a traditional weight class. That pretty much gets him all-time great status alone.

Is any fighter top 3 or so in a traditional weight class and not an ATG? I can't think of anyone off the top of my head.

no argument from me, oscar and duran are ATG but I wouldn't consider them legendary. if duran had went 4-0 against his peers after leaving 135 and oscar had won all of his big fights there would be no questioning their status as two of the best of all-time. but they didn't so they are just ATG fighters, duran at lightweight and oscar well how would you rank oscar all-time per weightclass.

[jecxbox]

It's undisputed that he was an elite and is a future first ballot Hall of Fame fighter, but DLH does not deserve the title of ATG and I have been reviewing his entire run a little more lately.

Let's look at the evidence:

- A controversial win against Whitaker, people are 50/50 on this one, but it was close and an old Whitaker at that who had just struggled greatly with Hurtado.

- A *gift* over Quartey. Note that I did not say 'controversial win', because this one was pretty clear and it's more like 80% of boxing fans scored this for Quartey. Ike was robbed.

- A close loss against Trinidad, that was FAIR. DLH fanboys act like DLH was robbed, but this fight was absolutely a close fight that could have been a draw or a very close Trinidad win and I just watched this the other day and came out with a draw myself, giving Trinidad 2 of the early rounds and DLH's running down the stretch is not even needed for discussion.

- Two losses to Mosely, which this is not a big deal as they were competitive, but lets add them in for the sake of the discussion.

- *Gift* against Sturm. Out of shape sure, but a loss no less in my book and this is universally considered.

- KO 9 loss against Hopkins, no big deal here, but throw it on regardless.

- Avoided Tszyu, Forrest etc. and always fought with his own stipulations in the vein of Ray Leonard.

....................

Best wins -

- Chavez x 2, an older Chavez though.

- Controversial over an older Whitaker, would have been GOOD if it were clear.

- Vargas

- Molina

- Leveled all B level competition very well(I take this into consideration, because it shows the level that he is, which was elite).

...............

So, we have a very good fighter and an undisputed elite level and future Hall of Famer, but he came up short against the other P4P level comp and while being competitive against them, this is still coming up short. He is also a very flawed fighter, with a weak mentality and this is why he was brought along in a protected way and why HE came up short when he absolutely could have won, as he was a phenominal 'talent', which is not disputed.

There you go guys, discuss.

:good :good :good :happy :happy :happy :D :D :D


In the words of Money Mayweather......YEP!!! I was thinking about making an identical post like this one but since you did it I won't even bother anymore.

[ROC]

Being a bore doesn't make the decision just.

After 5, it's either 3-2 Oscar, 2-2-1, or 3-2 Ike. Let's go with 3-2 Oscar. Quartey wins round 6, because he controlled the round after the 2 knockdowns. That's 3-3 after 6. Oscar did hardly anything from rounds 7 thru 11. Both guys mainly stared at each other and threw jabs, but Ike did more work. If Oscar won 2 rounds clearly in that stretch of 7 thru 11, let me know which rounds and what he actually did in those rounds to win them clearly. Ike is up 7-4, and then 114-113 after the 12th.

If Oscar deserved the decision, it was by the skin of his teeth, AND being generous to him. That requires giving him 3 of the first 5 and 2 from rouds 7 thru 11, both of which is giving him the benefit of the doubt. This was probably the easiest of DLH's controversial fights to score, unlike say his fight with Whitaker, which was a nightmare to score (I had it even).

Ken Morita's card was disgraceful, but he should've been banned 9 years earlier when he had Tyson beating Douglas 87-86 after 9. His scoring in Tokyo was one of the worst scorecards ever.

DLH winning a narrow one is one thing, but saying he clearly won it is bullshit, much like people saying Tito definitely deserved to win over Oscar because of the last 3 rounds, while scoring it for Tito requires giving him the benefit of the doubt in every close round.

I see alot of uncertainties in your arguement. How can they stare at each other throughout those rounds you mentioned but have Ike out work Oscar, doesn't make any sense. Tell me how many combos Ike threw throughout the fight? It was basically one punch at a time and not many landed. Oscar threw combos and pressed the action more than Ike throughout the fight but also didn't land many.Judges liked what they saw in the 12th and they considered it a defining factor. What you are basically is saying is that you are scoring the fight for Ike base on him just staring at Oscar and being ineffective but yet you still think he won those rounds.:huh What I saw was one guy pressing the action and throwing combos and the other throwing one punch at a time. Both fighters were in effective at times and it made for a boring fight. Oscar was down once and Ike was down twice and clearly outlanded in the 12th round and showed that he wanted it more. I really don't know how you can say that Ike did more when he showed nothing in trying to take the belt from Oscar. Everyone is always saying that you must go after and defeat the champ decisively but instead it was the champ going after the challenger. I can't break the whole fight down for you but I am just telling you what I remember.

[Robbi]

Being a bore doesn't make the decision just.

After 5, it's either 3-2 Oscar, 2-2-1, or 3-2 Ike. Let's go with 3-2 Oscar. Quartey wins round 6, because he controlled the round after the 2 knockdowns. That's 3-3 after 6. Oscar did hardly anything from rounds 7 thru 11. Both guys mainly stared at each other and threw jabs, but Ike did more work. If Oscar won 2 rounds clearly in that stretch of 7 thru 11, let me know which rounds and what he actually did in those rounds to win them clearly. Ike is up 7-4, and then 114-113 after the 12th.

If Oscar deserved the decision, it was by the skin of his teeth, AND being generous to him. That requires giving him 3 of the first 5 and 2 from rouds 7 thru 11, both of which is giving him the benefit of the doubt. This was probably the easiest of DLH's controversial fights to score, unlike say his fight with Whitaker, which was a nightmare to score (I had it even).

Ken Morita's card was disgraceful, but he should've been banned 9 years earlier when he had Tyson beating Douglas 87-86 after 9. His scoring in Tokyo was one of the worst scorecards ever.

DLH winning a narrow one is one thing, but saying he clearly won it is bullshit, much like people saying Tito definitely deserved to win over Oscar because of the last 3 rounds, while scoring it for Tito requires giving him the benefit of the doubt in every close round.


De La Hoya wins 10th, 11th, and the 12th. I thought he clearly won the 10th, and the 11th a little closer. Lets say On my card he wins those last three rounds, he would only need to win two other rounds in the first 9 to get a draw, depending how you score the 6th.

You can easily say De La Hoya won the fight based on the 12th round as many people could have had Quarety up by a point at that stage.

The only part of the fight Quartey dominates, 7th, 8th, 9th.

[Thread Stealer]

Don't know what you mean by traditional, but there are question marks on Tszyu at 140, and I don't think Calzaghe is considered an ATG by anyone besides ChinaHandJoe..I'm not denying Duran is an ATG, just stating my opinion on there being different standards for him and Oscar.


A traditional weight class meaning not a junior weight division. The traditional weight classes have more history.

135 is a traditional weight class. 130 and 140 have some nice history, but not as much as a traditional weight class like 135 or 147 or 160. It hasn't been around as long.

168 and cruiserweight are not even close in history to divisions like 140, let alone a traditional weight class.

[Thread Stealer]

I see alot of uncertainties in your arguement. How can they stare at each other throughout those rounds you mentioned but have Ike out work Oscar, doesn't make any sense. Tell me how many combos Ike threw throughout the fight? It was basically one punch at a time and not many landed. Oscar threw combos and pressed the action more than Ike throughout the fight but also didn't land many.Judges liked what they saw in the 12th and they considered it a defining factor. What you are basically is saying is that you are scoring the fight for Ike base on him just staring at Oscar and being ineffective but yet you still think he won those rounds.:huh What I saw was one guy pressing the action and throwing combos and the other throwing one punch at a time. Both fighters were in effective at times and it made for a boring fight. Oscar was down once and Ike was down twice and clearly outlanded in the 12th round and showed that he wanted it more. I really don't know how you can say that Ike did more when he showed nothing in trying to take the belt from Oscar. Everyone is always saying that you must go after and defeat the champ decisively but instead it was the champ going after the challenger. I can't break the whole fight down for you but I am just telling you what I remember.

There is no way Ike won either 10 or 11.
Oscar definately won the 10th. He outlanded Ike 14-8, landed a few good hooks and appeared to wobble Quartey with a counter left-hook, and got in a couple of uppercuts near the end. Ike just threw out his jab and landed nothing else. Oscar was the busier, forced the action, and landed the more telling blows.
The best you could give Quartey was a draw in the 11th, he did nothing to deserve that round. Granted Oscar didn't do much either, but he did more to deserve it than Ike (Oscar was the champion remember). They mostly traded jabs, but I gave it to Oscar for being busier (doubled-up on his jab, threw some combos) and appeared to land a couple uppercuts near the end, one of which seemed to hurt Ike.

I had it 6 rounds a piece, with the 10-8 12th getting Oscar a one point victory. I'll stop short of saying Oscar definately won it, like I said the 11th could've been scored even and with some of the early rounds you can't say there was a definitive winner. Ok, Morita's scorecard was a bit ridiculous, but it wasn't a robbery in terms of Oscar being given the fight.

The "challenger has to win the rounds by wider margins and take it from the champ" is just a myth. It's a saying and supposed to be an unwritten rule, but judges are not trained to do so, and plenty of fighters over the years have won close fights while being the challenger. Both guys were tenative, Ike landed the better, cleaner shots and did the better work in 7 rounds on my card.

I never said it was a gift, and like I said, you have to be rather generous to Oscar to score the fight for him. It requires giving him 3 of the first 5 and 2 rounds from 7 thru 11.

My problem is not with those who merely scored it for Oscar, but those who say he clearly won because of the 12th. It was a close fight that could've easily gone to Quartey. There was nothing clear about it at all.

[koko of phil]

Could Oscar be an ATG now only if he had beaten Mayrunner?

[BewareofDawg]

Chavez was only 33 years old!

[Amsterdam]

Chavez was only 33 years old!

And well past his best.

[Thread Stealer]

and beat oba carr without fighting life or death with him the way trinidad did...


Life-and-death?

Tito suffered a flash KD in round 2 (as he often did), and then gradually beat Carr up. The fight wasn't close.

Although De La Hoya never got dropped, he had more trouble throughout the fight with Carr than Tito or Ike did with him. Carr was way more competitive with Oscar than expected.

[Thread Stealer]

And well past his best.

I still think it was a good solid win for Oscar though.

The first fight, that is.

[theHawtness]

i agree 100%. oscar is defintely not an ATG.

[brooklyn1550]

Could Oscar be an ATG now only if he had beaten Mayrunner?

If Oscar would have beaten Floyd, he would have been an ATG and it would have put a stamp on his legacy.

[Amsterdam]

If Oscar would have beaten Floyd, he would have been an ATG and it would have put a stamp on his legacy.

On the flipside, Oscar at his best would have defeated all of Floyd's opposition and I don't see Floyd defeating a peak Vargas at 154 or a peak Quartey, Trinidad, Mosely at 147....

Oscar isn't an ATG, but you could never say that about Floyd on here.

I consider Floyd a top 75 ATG, he's always been consistent, but sometimes views can vary back and forth and if Floyd really steps up these last few years, then he can become a top 30 depending, so let's hope he doesn't taint himself.

[brooklyn1550]

On the flipside, Oscar at his best would have defeated all of Floyd's opposition and I don't see Floyd defeating a peak Vargas at 154 or a peak Quartey, Trinidad, Mosely at 147....

Yes, Oscar against Floyd's first 37 opponents would have gone 37-0. I'm not so sure Floyd would have gone undefeated if he faced Oscar's opposition.

[Amsterdam]

Yes, Oscar against Floyd's first 37 opponents would have gone 37-0. I'm not so sure Floyd would have gone undefeated if he faced Oscar's opposition.

But Floyd's shown great consistency, still has time. I dislike hearing that he is a Top 50 ATG though.

[Thread Stealer]

On the flipside, Oscar at his best would have defeated all of Floyd's opposition and I don't see Floyd defeating a peak Vargas at 154 or a peak Quartey, Trinidad, Mosely at 147....


Yes, Oscar against Floyd's first 37 opponents would have gone 37-0. I'm not so sure Floyd would have gone undefeated if he faced Oscar's opposition.

Oscar is a bigger guy than Floyd.

[brooklyn1550]

But Floyd's shown great consistency, still has time. I dislike hearing that he is a Top 50 ATG though.

I don't think he's top 50 either

[China_hand_Joe]

If he had beaten Floyd he wouldn't have been Oscar at all.

[Thread Stealer]

If he had beaten Floyd he wouldn't have been Oscar at all.

If Calzaghe had been @ 147 or 154 lbs and fought Floyd, he wouldn't have been Joe at all.

[Amsterdam]

I don't think he's top 50 either

His resume has gone down as well, because he didn't 'ruin' anybody, but most of his big wins have turned out a little more sour than originally thought through further competition, namely Castillo, Judah, Corrales, Jesus Chavez and so on. And then DLH is just past it and you have your pissy fight vs. Baldomir.

Add to the fact that I thought Castillo beat him first time around and to the fact that the event was what made Castillo overrated as a fighter as well, even though he was an elite by his own right.

If Floyd would have frankly ruined them the night he fought and then they showed immediate degrade after that(Trinidad/Vargas type you know), then that would more applicable, but what ruined Castillo and Corrales were each other and their brutal epic and then Jesus Chavez has been plagued by injury but he's certainly not a phenominal win.

I'll tell you what though, a green Floyd dominating Hernandez is something you can never downgrade....

I hope the kid buckles down and beats his contemporaries, or history is not going to be kind to him.

[DoumB]

Hes an ATG, wether some like it or not, if he had receive the victory over Tito(Who he clearly beat) against Mosley the second time around, there would be no questions but since these bogus decisions were made some are still questionning ...and the fact that he LOST to sturm to.... but sturm is a middleweight

[kaygb]

A lot of boxing people say Oscars career defining fight was his win over Vargas. not so. In the 3 fights before Oscar Vargas had been knocked down 5 times, even knocked down by weak hitting Rivera, wobbled repeatedly in his win against journeyman Shibata flores the he fought Oscar .. and when the fight was stopped even 1 judge had Vargas ahead by 3.
Oscar stepped up 5 times in his career to fight the very best, the elite.
AND HE LOST ALL 5. He has never unified.
ATG ... no. But a damn good fighter.

[ChampionsForever]

He is in my book, people say guys like Jake Lamotta and Trinidad are all time greats, why not DLH then?? he's in the top 10 best fighters to come out of the 90's.

[Unlimited]

Hopfuly DHL wont be considered an ATG the only reason dat could happen is because so many people like him

[joito3]

While not many other posters would agree, I certianly do.

Duran made a prime Hagler look ordinary over 15 rounds with his cute defensive work from the outside behind the jab, mixed in with the odd right hand. Leonard's movement and ring generalship combined with combinations edged out Hagler. Hopkins has the toughness to match Hagler when the going got tough, but his tactical awareness and outside work would be the key areas for victory. I pick Hopkins via decision.

Hearns' boxing ability and right hand are weapons Hopkins would struggle with, no question. But Hopkins had a better defense than Hearns. Sure, Hopkins has nothing more than respectable power, not chilling, but enough to stop Hearns during the late rounds. I also believe Hopkins has the chin to hold up under Hearns' right hand. Hopkins late stoppage.

Leonard would present Hopkins with the toughest challenge. He maybe never had Hearns' power, or Hagler's strength, but he had "know now". Leonard could take a punch, and knew when to strike, and when to defend. He was a very well balanced thinking fighter, very much like Hopkins himself. Leonard would look to get inside, like he did against Hearns' in their first fight, but he'd find Hopkins too cute. Leonard would say after the fight "This guy is like Hearns and Hagler in one body, he's got the height and reach like Tommy, nice jabs as well, and once inside he was strong just like Marvin was, he deserved the decision tonight". Hopkins via decision.

Too strong in all areas for Duran. Im not saying for one minute Duran wouldn't be competitive, because he sure would. He never took Hagler 15 rounds with smoke and mirrors, as he fought a fine fight. But Hopkins was much taller than Hagler, who stood at 5'9" compared to Hopkins' 6'1". Hopkins' had Hagler's defensive ability at long range, and a bit more. If Duran dared close the distance, he'd get cracked with uppercuts, and straight right hands. One thing is for certain, If Hagler can beat Duran in 3rd gear with a cautious approach your damn sure Hopkins can do the same. Hopkins via decision.

moronic predictions hopkins couldn't knock out hearns ! If anyone gets ko'd in that fight it would be hopkins

[Robbi]

moronic predictions hopkins couldn't knock out hearns ! If anyone gets ko'd in that fight it would be hopkins

Yes he could. Hopkins hits harder than Leonard at middleweight, and he had Hearns all over the place on two seperate occassions during their rematch at super-middleweight. And Hagler KO'd Hearns inside three rounds.

Hopkins hits harder than Leonard, and is on par with Hagler when it comes to power.

If Hearns could not seriously hurt Hagler, the chances are very slim when it comes to denting Hopkins' chin.

Lets not forget, Barkley smashed Hearns into the canvas as well.

We shall never know, but logical evidence clearly supports my judgement.

[chesh]

It's undisputed that he was an elite and is a future first ballot Hall of Fame fighter, but DLH does not deserve the title of ATG and I have been reviewing his entire run a little more lately.

Let's look at the evidence:

- A controversial win against Whitaker, people are 50/50 on this one, but it was close and an old Whitaker at that who had just struggled greatly with Hurtado.

- A *gift* over Quartey. Note that I did not say 'controversial win', because this one was pretty clear and it's more like 80% of boxing fans scored this for Quartey. Ike was robbed.

- A close loss against Trinidad, that was FAIR. DLH fanboys act like DLH was robbed, but this fight was absolutely a close fight that could have been a draw or a very close Trinidad win and I just watched this the other day and came out with a draw myself, giving Trinidad 2 of the early rounds and DLH's running down the stretch is not even needed for discussion.

- Two losses to Mosely, which this is not a big deal as they were competitive, but lets add them in for the sake of the discussion.

- *Gift* against Sturm. Out of shape sure, but a loss no less in my book and this is universally considered.

- KO 9 loss against Hopkins, no big deal here, but throw it on regardless.

- Avoided Tszyu, Forrest etc. and always fought with his own stipulations in the vein of Ray Leonard.

....................

Best wins -

- Chavez x 2, an older Chavez though.

- Controversial over an older Whitaker, would have been GOOD if it were clear.

- Vargas

- Molina

- Leveled all B level competition very well(I take this into consideration, because it shows the level that he is, which was elite).

...............

So, we have a very good fighter and an undisputed elite level and future Hall of Famer, but he came up short against the other P4P level comp and while being competitive against them, this is still coming up short. He is also a very flawed fighter, with a weak mentality and this is why he was brought along in a protected way and why HE came up short when he absolutely could have won, as he was a phenominal 'talent', which is not disputed.

There you go guys, discuss.:hat

Good post, Amsterdam. Oscar, I think, is good for boxing, but the points you make are accurate. I would just like to add that I had him losing to Trinidad by a point and the Vargas he beat was pretty much damaged goods after Trinidad brutalised him.

[Alo2006]

Yes, but think of the numbers that an older Pernell brought, over the younger Tszyu at the time. Pernell had been looking pretty bad lately and the move was to snipe off the ageing legend.

Tszyu was a hungry, dominant younger force and a bigger threat at that point in my opinion.


I have to agree on this.

[Lupe]

Yes he could. Hopkins hits harder than Leonard at middleweight, and he had Hearns all over the place on two seperate occassions during their rematch at super-middleweight. And Hagler KO'd Hearns inside three rounds.

Hopkins hits harder than Leonard, and is on par with Hagler when it comes to power.

If Hearns could not seriously hurt Hagler, the chances are very slim when it comes to denting Hopkins' chin.

Lets not forget, Barkley smashed Hearns into the canvas as well.

We shall never know, but logical evidence clearly supports my judgement.

They don't come any dumber than this.

[brooklyn1550]

Hearns, Barkely and Hagler would have all assraped Bernard "Hoke" Hopkins. Duran would have put a fetus inside of Hopkins' man-uterus, and Barkely would have beaten Hops and after made him bark like a dog.

Give me a fucking break

[brooklyn1550]

They don't come any dumber than this.
:patsch

[China_hand_Joe]

Tszyu was actually considered P4P 1-3 outside of America.

Even the yanks had him top 10 though.

[Thread Stealer]

Oscar wanted to fight him again after he kayoed Mitchell and went top 5 p4p, and again Tszyu blew the fight by quitting on his stool vs Hatton.

That fight wasn't gonna happen even if Tszyu got past Hatton, unless Tszyu was wiling to jump up 2 divisions.

Oscar ain't fighting @ 147 again, no matter what he or Larry Merchant claim.

[PH|LLA]

i think if you throw his gold medal in there then he definately makes it

[Olu G. Rotimi]

It's undisputed that he was an elite and is a future first ballot Hall of Fame fighter, but DLH does not deserve the title of ATG and I have been reviewing his entire run a little more lately.

Let's look at the evidence:

- A controversial win against Whitaker, people are 50/50 on this one, but it was close and an old Whitaker at that who had just struggled greatly with Hurtado.

- A *gift* over Quartey. Note that I did not say 'controversial win', because this one was pretty clear and it's more like 80% of boxing fans scored this for Quartey. Ike was robbed.

- A close loss against Trinidad, that was FAIR. DLH fanboys act like DLH was robbed, but this fight was absolutely a close fight that could have been a draw or a very close Trinidad win and I just watched this the other day and came out with a draw myself, giving Trinidad 2 of the early rounds and DLH's running down the stretch is not even needed for discussion.

- Two losses to Mosely, which this is not a big deal as they were competitive, but lets add them in for the sake of the discussion.

- *Gift* against Sturm. Out of shape sure, but a loss no less in my book and this is universally considered.

- KO 9 loss against Hopkins, no big deal here, but throw it on regardless.

- Avoided Tszyu, Forrest etc. and always fought with his own stipulations in the vein of Ray Leonard.

....................

Best wins -

- Chavez x 2, an older Chavez though.

- Controversial over an older Whitaker, would have been GOOD if it were clear.

- Vargas

- Molina

- Leveled all B level competition very well(I take this into consideration, because it shows the level that he is, which was elite).

...............

So, we have a very good fighter and an undisputed elite level and future Hall of Famer, but he came up short against the other P4P level comp and while being competitive against them, this is still coming up short. He is also a very flawed fighter, with a weak mentality and this is why he was brought along in a protected way and why HE came up short when he absolutely could have won, as he was a phenominal 'talent', which is not disputed.

There you go guys, discuss.:hat

Excellent synopsis Amsterdam. Very well put together I must say. I agree with so many of your points and would add that at Junior Lightweight he avoided the great Azumah Nelson and settled for Jimmy Bredahl. I have always noted Bob Arum might be many things but he is not a fool.

Hall of fame definitely. I mean if Barry McGuigan and other lesser fight have got in then ODLH is certainty for the Hall of Fame. The reason why he is not an all time great is that when he fought the great ones at their peak and his not only did he lose his performance level dropped as well. He lost to Trinidad, Hopkins, Mosley twice and PBF. He really lost the fight to Whittaker, Sturm and Quartey clearly in my opinion. He was the equivalent in cricket terms of flat track bully. Put him with grade B and C level fighter he looked dynamite put him in with the best and he looked pedestrian.

I can rate him as an all time great rather I view him as very very good fighter who was very popular at least in certain quarters. By comparison I dislike and detest Sugar Ray Leonard as a man, but I as a fighting man I recognise him as an all time great within the top 10 or arguably top 5 pound for pound greatest of all time. Popularity does not equal greatness it is the accomplishments of a fighter than determine greateness.

[THN]

I dont know if he is a atg, but for sure he had always fougth the best, he should be given kredit for that.

[TIGEREDGE]

Oscar will go down as an all time great for his popularity alone. Anyone who wins titles in 5 weight divisions deserves the accolade of all time great. I would say he fought some pretty good competition and was competitive in all of his fights, even the losses.

Probably spot on. i belive he would of been greater if he never had made so much money so soon. that efected his development as fighter

He is a lowly ranked ATG in my opinion

[TIGEREDGE]

look at duran, sure he was possibly the greatest lightweight to ever live, but against the true greats he fought (leonardx3, hearns, hagler, benitez) he was 1-5, was kayoed brutally by hearns, quit against leonard in the rematch and was outclassed heavily in the rubber match and also lost clearly to hagler and benitez. with duran people ignore this record and hold his lightweight career and his win over leonard as enough to qualify him as an ATG. yet with Hoya it's the 1st thing they bring up to deny him that status.

good point. but duran dominated a division and beat some great lightweights in ken buchanan (albeit controversial) and esteban de jesus (2 ko's). He also beat some very good fighters at this.

He then jumped up two weights and beat a very good fighter in carlos palomino. he then beat leonard (one of the best ever) when both were in great shape. FUCK THE REMATCH. DURAN WAS OUT OF SHAPE. THAT WAS NOT THE RD WE KNOW

After being down and out, he rebounded by beating davey moore and then giving marving hagler one of his hardest fights. got flattened by hearns but he came back years later and beat a good young middleweight in iran narkley

THERE ARE MANY OTHER ACHIEVEMENT I CAN NAME BY MANOS DE PIEDRA
DURAN IS A BONA FIDE TOP 10 ALLTIME GREAT. De la hoya left a lot of doubt in his key fights with trinidad, quartey, mosley and whitaker. he never got the conclusive victories needed to get into the top tier ATG list

I thought he beat quartey, trinidad and whitaker. But he didn't beat these fighters in the great style Duran destroyed je jesus, leonard (this was close) and other very good fighters

iF HE HAD OF PUSHED BERNARD HOPKINS CLOSE IN 2004 LIKE DURAN WITH HAGLER 1983 HIS STATUS WOULD OF RISED

[TIGEREDGE]

If Hearns can lose to Leonard, and draw, lose to Hagler inside three rounds, then get knocked out and also lose a decision to Barkley. He aint much better than De La Hoya.

Note: Don't come back and say Hearns' was robbed against Leonard in their rematch, because someone could say De La Hoya really beat Trinidad. Lets deal with facts.

De La Hoya's defeats

Trinidad
Mosley x2
Hopkins
Mayweather

Hearns defeats/draws.

Leonard
Leonard draw
Hagler
Barkley x2.

One of Hearns biggest wins was against Duran, who was at least 4 years past his prime. He was around the same age as Chavez when De La Hoya beat him inside 4 rounds, and Chavez was equally as past his prime as Duran was, no question.


I really need to laugh when people say De La Hoya was not an ATG, Im not saying he was a top tier ATG, but give him some credit.

GREAT POINT, BUT HEARNS HAS TO GIVEN CREDIT FOR DESTROYING PIPINO CUEVAS IN 1980, WILFRED BENITZ (GREAT FIHTER) IN 82 and coming back in 1991 to beat a very good fighter in virgil hill is well as the other titles he won

[Thread Stealer]

good point. but duran dominated a division and beat some great lightweights in ken buchanan (albeit controversial) and esteban de jesus (2 ko's). He also beat some very good fighters at this.

He then jumped up two weights and beat a very good fighter in carlos palomino. he then beat leonard (one of the best ever) when both were in great shape. FUCK THE REMATCH. DURAN WAS OUT OF SHAPE. THAT WAS NOT THE RD WE KNOW

After being down and out, he rebounded by beating davey moore and then giving marving hagler one of his hardest fights. got flattened by hearns but he came back years later and beat a good young middleweight in iran narkley

THERE ARE MANY OTHER ACHIEVEMENT I CAN NAME BY MANOS DE PIEDRA
DURAN IS A BONA FIDE TOP 10 ALLTIME GREAT. De la hoya left a lot of doubt in his key fights with trinidad, quartey, mosley and whitaker. he never got the conclusive victories needed to get into the top tier ATG list

I thought he beat quartey, trinidad and whitaker. But he didn't beat these fighters in the great style Duran destroyed je jesus, leonard (this was close) and other very good fighters

iF HE HAD OF PUSHED BERNARD HOPKINS CLOSE IN 2004 LIKE DURAN WITH HAGLER 1983 HIS STATUS WOULD OF RISED

Duran's own laziness was his fault. He's one of the greats regardless, but his standing (already very high) does suffer due to his own lack of consistency in training.

Duran's fight with Hagler was also the most exaggerated "close" fight ever. He did a good job of making Hagler miss in the early going, and made it competitive. It was still not a close fight. Duran won like 4 rounds in reality. Those judges were on cocaine and Jack Daniels.

[TIGEREDGE]

Duran's own laziness was his fault. He's one of the greats regardless, but his standing (already very high) does suffer due to his own lack of consistency in training.

Duran's fight with Hagler was also the most exaggerated "close" fight ever. He did a good job of making Hagler miss in the early going, and made it competitive. It was still not a close fight. Duran won like 4 rounds in reality. Those judges were on cocaine and Jack Daniels.

Duran was winning the fight on some score cards going into the later rounds