View Full Version : Tszyu - where do Australian persons rank him amongst the all time best -questionmark-
China_hand_Joe
08-22-2007, 10:40 PM
In terms of how good he is, rather than greatness...I have no doubt he would be in my top 20 ever, perhaps even higher.
PorkChopExpress
08-22-2007, 11:08 PM
Discipline, dedication, natural and acquired talent, speed, timing, power and ring generalship are qualities you can rarely see in such high supply for one particular boxer - hell there are a lot of champions who are missing quite a few of those attributes altogether. Tszyu has them all in abundance. His boxing intelligence is phenomenal and it all means that when he gets in the ring, to beat him you need to play a perfect game (Why Hatton deserves alot of credit... he took away alot of Tszyu's advantages to do what he did, whether he used his skill, strength and ******'s money - he did it... (Phillips was before his prime)
So in all, I put him in the top 15. I dont really differentiate on an individual basis because it's just too damn hard...
Call me a hugger, but the guy was a fighting machine and on an average night, could beat some grade A dudes!
Discipline, dedication, natural and acquired talent, speed, timing, power and ring generalship are qualities you can rarely see in such high supply for one particular boxer - hell there are a lot of champions who are missing quite a few of those attributes altogether. Tszyu has them all in abundance. His boxing intelligence is phenomenal and it all means that when he gets in the ring, to beat him you need to play a perfect game (Why Hatton deserves alot of credit... he took away alot of Tszyu's advantages to do what he did, whether he used his skill, strength and ******'s money - he did it... (Phillips was before his prime)
So in all, I put him in the top 15. I dont really differentiate on an individual basis because it's just too damn hard...
Call me a hugger, but the guy was a fighting machine and on an average night, could beat some grade A dudes!
Phillips WAS NOT before his prime mate. Sorry to break it to you.
PorkChopExpress
08-22-2007, 11:13 PM
okay... let's just agree to disagree here and save 8 - 10 pages of back and forthing Roy :P
Im leaning towards agreeing with Pork Chop on this one. KT may have been in his physical prime against Vince but I think he refined his game better after that.
Marcus
08-22-2007, 11:38 PM
All time great for sure.
I remember watching him lose to Philips, man that was a huge shock at the time.
Im leaning towards agreeing with Pork Chop on this one. KT may have been in his physical prime against Vince but I think he refined his game better after that.
You have to be kidding right. A world champion with six defenses behind him. A string of victories against world class opponents before that. And an amatuer career spanning 248 fights. 28 years old and in the normal physical prime for the average fighter. How could that not be his prime.... He had probably more skills technically at this stage of his career then any other, and had the physical attributes to go with it. Basically, he took Phillips too easy, fought a VERY DUMB fight, and ended up losing to a guy who was underated. The fight itself wasn't one sided, just more gruelling then he probably ever expected.
Kostya was a great fighter. Talent wise I would say top 30 probably, although its SO hard to measure, and a massive part of it is bias. I don't think he is better talent wise then Jones Jr, Whitaker, Chavez, Hagler, SRL or Hearns. Maybe close to a level playing field on talent alone with guys like Prime Duran, Taylor, Hamed, Floyd, Fenechect. Its too tough to call. Some guys were MUCH more talented then resume suggests, and had relatively short primes. He was a great fighter no doubt. Sometimes he just wouldn't use his great boxing mind which was his downfall. A brilliant technician. Probably one of the best to come from Europe. The way he would bait his opponents, and then counter with brutal accuracy was unreal. Very awkward the way he would hold that lead hand out yet counter with the lead hook and jab from this position. Defensively underated IMO. Awesome conditioning for the most part. Great timing. Unreal power. Tenacious finisher. Very tough to beat for anyone. Extremely cagey. I will always remember Kostya by his win over Gonzalez and his second over mitchell after coming back from injury.
Not even close to top 20 or 30.
BoppaZoo
08-23-2007, 03:49 AM
I rate Tszyu Top 50 All Time and
140 All Time
1. Aaron Pryor
2. Kostya Tszyu
3. Julio C Chavez
In terms of his Amatuer career aswell he is in the top 10 all time as a amatuer with a unbelievable record.
Not even close to top 20 or 30.
You obviously haven't read the thread properly. Based on talent NOT RESUME. Surely not a top 30ATG. But we are being asked to assess ability alone. Who would you rank higher? (Apart from the ones I listed?
I rate Tszyu Top 50 All Time and
140 All Time
1. Aaron Pryor
2. Kostya Tszyu
3. Julio C Chavez
In terms of his Amatuer career aswell he is in the top 10 all time as a amatuer with a unbelievable record.
How would you rate him solely in terms of ability
BoppaZoo
08-23-2007, 04:18 AM
How would you rate him solely in terms of abilityhe had great talent and his boxing ability was great and right up there in terms of he could do everything.
But he had one weakness and that was busy bigger type fighters with the style like Hatton,Phillips etc.
Boxing ability though i would say in the last 20 years he is in the Top Ten easy on ability with names like
Pernell Whitaker
Roy Jones
Bernard Hopkins
etc
China_hand_Joe
08-23-2007, 07:54 AM
Do you think Phillips might have been to Tszyu, what Robin Reid was to Calzaghe -questionmark- A learning experience that helped him grow as a fighter.
China_hand_Joe
08-23-2007, 07:58 AM
I actually have Tszyu in my top 10. One of the most naturally co-ordinated fighters I have ever seen.
China_hand_Joe
08-23-2007, 07:59 AM
You obviously haven't read the thread properly. Based on talent NOT RESUME. Surely not a top 30ATG. But we are being asked to assess ability alone. Who would you rank higher? (Apart from the ones I listed?Realised talent though, so basically the total combination of skill and talent.
You obviously haven't read the thread properly. Based on talent NOT RESUME. Surely not a top 30ATG. But we are being asked to assess ability alone. Who would you rank higher? (Apart from the ones I listed?
There's been plenty more "realised" talent.
You have to be kidding right. A world champion with six defenses behind him. A string of victories against world class opponents before that. And an amatuer career spanning 248 fights. 28 years old and in the normal physical prime for the average fighter. How could that not be his prime.... He had probably more skills technically at this stage of his career then any other, and had the physical attributes to go with it. Basically, he took Phillips too easy, fought a VERY DUMB fight, and ended up losing to a guy who was underated. The fight itself wasn't one sided, just more gruelling then he probably ever expected.I said he may have been in his physical prime (I should have wrote he was) but he refined his game better after he lost to Vince. By refinement I meant he used his head more with the talent he had thus kinda agreeing with Pork Choppy that he was probably better after that fight. I actually have no problem agreeing with your pt aswell. Just call me a part time fan, I actually think Sweet Pea flogs him lol.
I said he may have been in his physical prime (I should have wrote he was) but he refined his game better after he lost to Vince. By refinement I meant he used his head more with the talent he had thus kinda agreeing with Pork Choppy that he was probably better after that fight. I actually have no problem agreeing with your pt aswell. Just call me a part time fan, I actually think Sweet Pea flogs him lol.
Now your in for trouble...... Did you see this shit Boppa. Looks like fighting words!
BoppaZoo
08-24-2007, 01:36 AM
I said he may have been in his physical prime (I should have wrote he was) but he refined his game better after he lost to Vince. By refinement I meant he used his head more with the talent he had thus kinda agreeing with Pork Choppy that he was probably better after that fight. I actually have no problem agreeing with your pt aswell. Just call me a part time fan, I actually think Sweet Pea flogs him lol.woowooooo wooooa
Whitaker however good he is he wouldnt beat Tszyu easy.
Tszyu's record against Southpaws is 8-0 with 8 KO's.
And ive heard about it before how good Sweet Pea's defense is etc etc.
But me Style wise id always pick Tszyu against a Southpaw no matter how good he is.
pecks
08-24-2007, 02:23 AM
I can't say how good he is compared to the old greats, as I've seen very very little footage of them. I do think that he was fairly rated in the top 5 p4p during the last 4 or so years before he fought Hatton.
lefty
08-24-2007, 05:17 AM
woowooooo wooooa
Whitaker however good he is he wouldnt beat Tszyu easy.
Tszyu's record against Southpaws is 8-0 with 8 KO's.
And ive heard about it before how good Sweet Pea's defense is etc etc.
But me Style wise id always pick Tszyu against a Southpaw no matter how good he is.
Who are the southpaws he fought? Certainly noone close to the talent that is Whitaker. Pernell would win a 10-2 decision. I'm of the opinion that Kostya tszyu is EXTREMELY overrated.
China_hand_Joe
08-24-2007, 09:27 AM
I can't say how good he is compared to the old greats, as I've seen very very little footage of them. I do think that he was fairly rated in the top 5 p4p during the last 4 or so years before he fought Hatton.I think it is safe to assume he is better than all of them pre 70s, Robinson is the only one maybe better.
I think it is safe to assume he is better than all of them pre 70s, Robinson is the only one maybe better.
Definitely agree. Pecks the so called "greats" get very over rated sometimes. They were brilliant for their era, but its not a fair comparison to compare to todays fighters. It would be like taking the best rugby league team from 30 years ago and matching it with the best team in todays game. With the professionalism, and the benefits of modern sports training and science it wouldn't even be close IMO.
Definitely agree. Pecks the so called "greats" get very over rated sometimes. They were brilliant for their era, but its not a fair comparison to compare to todays fighters. It would be like taking the best rugby league team from 30 years ago and matching it with the best team in todays game. With the professionalism, and the benefits of modern sports training and science it wouldn't even be close IMO.So true, the Souths premiership winning teams of the past in my humble opinion would probably be still dwelling at the bottom of the pack today :yep
stiflers mum
08-25-2007, 12:14 AM
So true, the Souths premiership winning teams of the past in my humble opinion would probably be still dwelling at the bottom of the pack today :yep:lol: :lol: :patsch :nono
Super_Fly_Sam
08-25-2007, 12:44 AM
I rate Tszyu Top 50 All Time and
140 All Time
1. Aaron Pryor
2. Kostya Tszyu
3. Julio C Chavez
In terms of his Amatuer career aswell he is in the top 10 all time as a amatuer with a unbelievable record.
What was his Am record?
BoppaZoo
08-25-2007, 12:58 AM
What was his Am record?Here some Records of Amatuer Records of some of the stars in Boxing.
Jose Napoles (113-1)
Oscar Dela Hoya (223-5)
Vernon Forest (225-15)
Sugar Ray Leonard (165-5)
Don Curry (400-16)
Al Minter (312-8)
Shane Mosely (250-16)
Joel Casamayor (330-30)
Kostya Tszyu (259-11)
pecks
08-25-2007, 01:38 AM
So true, the Souths premiership winning teams of the past in my humble opinion would probably be still dwelling at the bottom of the pack today :yepNice avatar. :)
ozziebattler
08-25-2007, 05:22 AM
woowooooo wooooa
Whitaker however good he is he wouldnt beat Tszyu easy.
Tszyu's record against Southpaws is 8-0 with 8 KO's.
And ive heard about it before how good Sweet Pea's defense is etc etc.
But me Style wise id always pick Tszyu against a Southpaw no matter how good he is.
Kostya could handle the slick speedsters.for some reason it was the more akward rough house sluggers(hatton,phillips) that troubled him..
I havent seen too many fighters(maybe only jones jr)that could hit his opponent nearly everytime he throw a puch.Also rarely had to have a huge workrate due to his accuracy..
Sorely missed..
China_hand_Joe
08-25-2007, 09:14 AM
The loss to Hatton only enhanced my opinion of Tszyu. Past prime in a horrid stylist matchup, against someone the quality of Hatton and still a very close fight.
China_hand_Joe
08-26-2007, 09:15 AM
.
pecks
08-26-2007, 03:11 PM
You got a new keyboard I see. :p
gatorage
08-29-2007, 07:21 AM
He's an all-time great at 140, one of the most talented boxers in terms of pure ability you're likely to see (his amateur fights show how good his head movement and hooking off the jab were amongst other things)
...but even as my favourite fighter, his ego got him in two fights he could have won. Phillips fight, even with court distractions aside, he didn't listen to lewis telling him to watch Phillips right hand and box more. He spent the fight trying to blow Phillips out and walked into a huge punch. He was ahead on the scorecards, a smarter Tszyu (eg the one that adjusted to Tackie after realising he couldn't ko the guy) could have won that fight on points or as lewis had said, delayed the fight and got into better shape and taken Phillips more seriously.
Hatton fight, again I have the same concern. He was happy to fight Hatton's fight rather than stay on the outside and set up Hatton. Watching the fight is actually an interesting study in stamina. By the time Tszyu realises what he needs to do (stiff jab and set up for the right) he's got nothing left and can't keep Hatton off him. Middle rounds I thought Tszyu was just starting to take over but the start of the fight he'd expended too much and couldn't execute. His lack of powerful right hands in this fight was also a concern and I think shows his age for the first time. As George Foreman said 'Your brain knows it should be throwing the right, but the body just doesn't do it.'
Tszyu needed one more big name to really cement his place. A mosely, de la hoya, mayweather fight would have made a huge difference to his resume. He is left with a slight question mark because he lost to two fighters who in my opinion he should have beaten and both at a time that would have provided the superfight Tszyu needed.
dave82
08-30-2007, 02:32 AM
He's an all-time great at 140, one of the most talented boxers in terms of pure ability you're likely to see (his amateur fights show how good his head movement and hooking off the jab were amongst other things)
...but even as my favourite fighter, his ego got him in two fights he could have won. Phillips fight, even with court distractions aside, he didn't listen to lewis telling him to watch Phillips right hand and box more. He spent the fight trying to blow Phillips out and walked into a huge punch. He was ahead on the scorecards, a smarter Tszyu (eg the one that adjusted to Tackie after realising he couldn't ko the guy) could have won that fight on points or as lewis had said, delayed the fight and got into better shape and taken Phillips more seriously.
Hatton fight, again I have the same concern. He was happy to fight Hatton's fight rather than stay on the outside and set up Hatton. Watching the fight is actually an interesting study in stamina. By the time Tszyu realises what he needs to do (stiff jab and set up for the right) he's got nothing left and can't keep Hatton off him. Middle rounds I thought Tszyu was just starting to take over but the start of the fight he'd expended too much and couldn't execute. His lack of powerful right hands in this fight was also a concern and I think shows his age for the first time. As George Foreman said 'Your brain knows it should be throwing the right, but the body just doesn't do it.'
Tszyu needed one more big name to really cement his place. A mosely, de la hoya, mayweather fight would have made a huge difference to his resume. He is left with a slight question mark because he lost to two fighters who in my opinion he should have beaten and both at a time that would have provided the superfight Tszyu needed.
Fantastic post mate :good
China_hand_Joe
08-31-2007, 08:55 PM
Anyone else put him top ever 10?
Or have the Americans here made you scared to hold such views?
BoppaZoo
09-01-2007, 04:22 AM
Anyone else put him top ever 10?
Or have the Americans here made you scared to hold such views?They do they always give off the vibe that our fighters are not worthy of All Time status.
How much have we seen these fighters get the Overated thread over the years from the USA fans.
Lennox Lewis
Joe Calzaghe
Kostya Tszyu
Ricky Hatton
Nassem Hamed
Wlad Klitschko
Manny Pacquiao
Why because there not USA fighters but yet our guys go into there country and win titles yet still get no respect.
I get fed up with it at times but you no what as the future of boxing goes on the best fighters that are exciting to watch are all guys from Overseas and thats why they diss our guys.
Anyone else put him top ever 10?
Or have the Americans here made you scared to hold such views?
I couldnt care less what they think to be perfectly honest, I don't have him in the top 10 on percieved or realised talent because frankly I think there are other fighters who are simply better. He is a great boxer, and had great talent, but then so did so many other great fighters in the last 25 years.
I am probably one of the biggest advocates here like yourself that boxing has definitely progressed. However that said, there were some fantastic fighters who came from the eighties and nineties, a few of which I would put above KT.
Perhaps I would have him higher then what I originally said, but since I have never been bothered to make a top ATG list of my own, I really can't say for sure. I do know however that I would not have him in the top ten based on my own personal analysis.
IMO truely great fighters can alter their gameplans, to overcome different opposition. I think this was something KT had trouble with at times. He was and will always be susceptible to pressure fighters.
Anyone else put him top ever 10?
Or have the Americans here made you scared to hold such views?
On a side note, i actually respect quite a few of the US posters here. Their boxing knowledge is very good. At the same time though, I like the fact that you actually use your own opinion and beliefs when discussing boxing.
Its good to see that some people can look past the cliched views of the average boxing fan and be an individual. If i were to make a generalization about the US posters, it would be that they love to follow popular opinion at times, even though it would appear to be wrong, as it ensures acceptance among the other posters. IMO it would be pretty boring if we all sat around and said: Pernell Whitaker the best against all else head 2 head, Sugar ray Robinson the best of all time without doubt ect ect. You know what I mean (I think).
That said though, that is a generalization, and doesn't apply to all. As said above, some of the US posters are very good and also very objective, maybe more so then a lot of other nationalities who use these boards.
China_hand_Joe
09-01-2007, 05:30 AM
That said though, that is a generalization, and doesn't apply to all. As said above, some of the US posters are very good and also very objective, maybe more so then a lot of other nationalities who use these boards.
There are some solid, even one or two who have come to terms with Hopkins ages and the fact he is out the top 10, despite being fans.
Back onto the topic of Tszyu. He looks to me like one of those fighters other world champions couldn't dream of emulating, just like a Roy Jones. Tszyu's timing and accuracy (especially in that right) are something special justlike Jones speed is.
I'm not sure what Joe Calzaghe does well though.
There are some solid, even one or two who have come to terms with Hopkins ages and the fact he is out the top 10, despite being fans.
Back onto the topic of Tszyu. He looks to me like one of those fighters other world champions couldn't dream of emulating, just like a Roy Jones. Tszyu's timing and accuracy (especially in that right) are something special justlike Jones speed is.
I'm not sure what Joe Calzaghe does well though.
Maybe more of that IBOGA? root is needed to provide further insite. :lol:
I seriously would enjoy that. Especially if it allows you to analyze a fight on a far deeper level.
As for Calzaghe, the thing that impresses me most is that brilliant combination punching. On the inside, I have no doubt that this is the most effective way to fight. I loved watching leonard, de la hoya and even roy at times do similar things (although apart from leonard to a lessor extent). It is almost impossible to mount an effective offense when being bombarded by punches, and I think this is something most opponents of Calzaghe really have trouble coming to terms with.
China_hand_Joe
09-01-2007, 09:48 PM
Calzaghe is a master of every boxing style.
Calzaghe is a master of every boxing style.
:good Totally agree
The punching power of Pernell Whitaker
The tenacity of Willie Pep
The iron jaw of Julian Jackson
The footwork of Jake la Motta
The strength of Naseem Hamed
The combination punching of George Foreman
The defence of Rocky Marciano
Super_Fly_Sam
09-02-2007, 08:13 AM
Here some Records of Amatuer Records of some of the stars in Boxing.
Jose Napoles (113-1)
Oscar Dela Hoya (223-5)
Vernon Forest (225-15)
Sugar Ray Leonard (165-5)
Don Curry (400-16)
Al Minter (312-8)
Shane Mosely (250-16)
Joel Casamayor (330-30)
Kostya Tszyu (259-11)
:good thanx man.... some of those guys had long am careers.. it spins me out when people get over like 100 fights... its hard to do in NSw though coz of the age restrictions..
i guess being 5-6 means i have a long way to go before i gewt to greattness lol
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