A thread about MONZON and HAGLER

[DINAMITA]

1.Who would have won if Monzon didn't retire and the long-reigning champion had fought the contender Marvin Hagler in 1978-9?


2.Who would have fared better if they had both moved up to light-heavyweight during their respective title reigns?

For instance, depending on when he moved up, Monzon could have been fighting Bob Foster, Victor Galindez, Yaqui Lopez and John Conteh.

Depending on when he moved up, Hagler could have been fighting Matthew Saad Muhammad, Eddie Mustafa Muhammad, Michael Spinks and Dwight Muhammad Qawi.


3.How would Monzon and Hagler have done at 168lbs against the best fighters to ever fight in the supermiddleweight division: Roy Jones 94-96 version, Toney 94, Calzaghe 06-07...

[Flea Man]

Monzon on the slide, Hagler on the rise, would've been a draw. Prime vs. Prime famously goes either way but I pick Hagler.

2. Monzon. Hagler was only 5'8, I think his frame was packing as much as it could.

3. Again, don't think Hagler could go up OR down, he was the perfect MW in terms of shape/stature/weight distribution etc etc. Monzon I don't know....would've been more suited but would he have been as sharp as the fight went on, as bludgeoningly precise will his slower blows? I say Jones beats him on PTS and he Draws with Calzaghe, but mainly having never seen Monzon at 168 rather than them being better fighters.

[DINAMITA]

Monzon on the slide, Hagler on the rise, would've been a draw. Prime vs. Prime famously goes either way but I pick Hagler.

2. Monzon. Hagler was only 5'8, I think his frame was packing as much as it could.

What about Q3 mate?

[Flea Man]

Have posted it now :good

[mr. magoo]

=DINAMITA;3688473]1.Who would have won if Monzon didn't retire and the long-reigning champion had fought the contender Marvin Hagler in 1978-9?


I think I'd favor Hagler against an aging Monzon by this point.


2.Who would have fared better if they had both moved up to light-heavyweight during their respective title reigns?


Impossible to answer given that neither ever fought there, but I think Monzon's boxing ability might have saved him against some of the killers at lightheavy. I don't know if Hagler could have traded toe to toe with some of the big boys.

For instance, depending on when he moved up, Monzon could have been fighting Bob Foster, Victor Galindez, Yaqui Lopez and John Conteh

And Hagler would have been fighting guys like Saad, Spinks, Qawi, and M.Johnson. Probably not the best of scenarios for Marvelous.


Depending on when he moved up, Hagler could have been fighting Matthew Saad Muhammad, Eddie Mustafa Muhammad, Michael Spinks and Dwight Muhammad Qawi.


Yep


3.How would Monzon and Hagler have done at 168lbs against the best fighters to ever fight in the supermiddleweight division: Roy Jones 94-96 version, Toney 94, Calzaghe 06-07...


No comment.

[jaffay]

1 I think that this is the first time that I would pick Hagler over Monzon

[GPater11093]

1.Who would have won if Monzon didn't retire and the long-reigning champion had fought the contender Marvin Hagler in 1978-9?


2.Who would have fared better if they had both moved up to light-heavyweight during their respective title reigns?

For instance, depending on when he moved up, Monzon could have been fighting Bob Foster, Victor Galindez, Yaqui Lopez and John Conteh.

Depending on when he moved up, Hagler could have been fighting Matthew Saad Muhammad, Eddie Mustafa Muhammad, Michael Spinks and Dwight Muhammad Qawi.


3.How would Monzon and Hagler have done at 168lbs against the best fighters to ever fight in the supermiddleweight division: Roy Jones 94-96 version, Toney 94, Calzaghe 06-07...

1. I think Monzon would be past it and Hgalers rise would be too much for Moonzon early but as Hagler started to fade in the later rounds as he did when he was young i think it would be a draw.

2. I dont think any of them would have done good at LHW at them era. But note that Hagler fought at LHW at Amatuers

3. No comment as we have no way to judge them at SMW

[red cobra]

Monzon, at least regarding his boxing career was concerned, was smart (not in his personal life) and knew when to walk away, as well as knowing that he was ideally suited for the middleweight division, and hence, didn't go invading the higher weight classes. Hagler was the same way, really, as I think his final fight was a draw, really, and not a loss to Leonard. Pitty-patty, shoeshine flurries and Ray's glitzy personality caught the eyes of the judges, and they deprived Hagler, IMO, of his title. Highway robbery, to say the least. If Monzon had stayed past his peak, he would have eventually lost, and probably to Hagler, and probably by a punishing decision, just as if he had decided to venture into the lightheavy division, it would have been a mistake, and would have resulted in losses to the top guys in the division, inevitably. Like I said, both men were smart enough to stay in their ideal weight classes, and that, for some bizarre reason, has been twisted into a detrimental thing regarding both Monzon and Hagler. Why in the hell are the weight classes in existence anyway? +Obviously, no one is forced to stay in a designated weight class, or else...as a fighter grows, matures or just puts on weight, he moves up to a higher, more accomodating division, but other fighters, on the other hand, have no reason to do this, as they may have no problem maintaining their main, fighting weight and are suited to stay in a single division. Why is it deemed so damned important for a fighter to move up in weight classes?

[mr. magoo]

[quote=red cobra;3689534 Why is it deemed so damned important for a fighter to move up in weight classes?[/quote]

Agreed,

No one ever pressures heavyweights to drop down and fight in lighter divisions. Therefore, men who are indigenous to a particular class should be appreciated for what they bring to that division and that division alone.

[MrMarvel]

Against top light heavyweight opposition, Monzon does better because his frame would have allowed him to carry more muscle. It's hard to see how Hagler packs more on his frame. Still, I don't think Monzon whips Foster (or Spinks). And I don't think Hagler whips Spinks (or Foster).

[Silver]

yeah, monzon was a bigger mw then hagler so if anybody could have or should have moved up, it was monzon?

[janitor]

yeah, monzon was a bigger mw then hagler so if anybody could have or should have moved up, it was monzon?

Not sure I agree.

I think that Monzons style relied heavily on his physical advantages over oponents while Hagler could have matched verry well against physicaly superior oponents.

[janitor]

Agreed,

No one ever pressures heavyweights to drop down and fight in lighter divisions. Therefore, men who are indigenous to a particular class should be appreciated for what they bring to that division and that division alone.

I dont know.

You cant put a price on imortality and that somtimes means moving up.

If you want to be a dominant middleweight champion then that can be achieved at middleweight.

If you want to be a pound for pound great or the greatest middleweight of all time then Harry Grebs resume is the mark you are aiming for.

[McGrain]

Not sure I agree.

I think that Monzons style relied heavily on his physical advantages over oponents while Hagler could have matched verry well against physicaly superior oponents.


Agree.

If you want one of these two to smash through a bigger barricade, it'd be Hagler, though I think Monzon is the better MW.

[McGrain]

If you want to be a pound for pound great or the greatest middleweight of all time then Harry Grebs resume is the mark you are aiming for.

Are you convinced that Greb's resume is better than Langford's resume?

[janitor]

Are you convinced that Greb's resume is better than Langford's resume?

No.

I take Langfords by a wafer thin margin.

I do think however that Greb sits more naturaly as a career middleweight than Langford.

[McGrain]

I think Langford's career above MW was kind of artificial, but i see what you mean.

My take - Greb has the marginally better list of hames, but Langford has the better wins born of his deep series culture, and his more varied weight jumping.

From out generalling Gans at 140(all time top top 5 lightweight, one of the greatest boxer types who ever lived) to out-punching Wills (all time top ten HW) for a second-to-last round one punch stoppage. That's not being matched until civilization starts to crumble, and then, maybe.

[Silver]

Not sure I agree.

I think that Monzons style relied heavily on his physical advantages over oponents while Hagler could have matched verry well against physicaly superior oponents.
well, you never know since neither moved up but monzon physcially looked more capable of moving up.

[janitor]

well, you never know since neither moved up but monzon physcially looked more capable of moving up.

Looked dosnt cut it.

Once you are the smaller man, Haglers style (as oposed to Monzons) is the only viable one.

[Silver]

Looked dosnt cut it.

Once you are the smaller man, Haglers style (as oposed to Monzons) is the only viable one.
well, even you recognize that hagler was the smaller man. a smaller man can be physcial with bigger oppnents becasue you play into their strengths. monzon was a guy u utilized distance and was crafty, plus he and size as he was over 6ft tall. it definately seems like he was more suited to move up but you entitled to your own opinion.

[DINAMITA]

I'm surprised at the terse answers saying Monzon purely because he was taller. Qawi at cruiserweight anyone?

[DINAMITA]

I think Langford's career above MW was kind of artificial, but i see what you mean.

My take - Greb has the marginally better list of hames, but Langford has the better wins born of his deep series culture, and his more varied weight jumping.

From out generalling Gans at 140(all time top top 5 lightweight, one of the greatest boxer types who ever lived) to out-punching Wills (all time top ten HW) for a second-to-last round one punch stoppage. That's not being matched until civilization starts to crumble, and then, maybe.

Do you rank Ezzard Charles's resume on the same level as Greb's and Langford's, or is he below that level IYO?

[McGrain]

Maybe one level below, yeah.