George Foreman vs Lennox Lewis

[Sweet Science]

The Foreman who beat Norton from '74 against the Lewis that beat Golota in '97.

Who would take this and why?

[TBooze]

Bit unfair as the Norton fight was peak Foreman, whilst Lewis did not hit his peak until Tua....

So I go for Foreman in a wild brawl off the floor in three.

[mr. magoo]

I think most people would pick Lennox Lewis, and while I agree, I also feel that it could go either way. Lennox Lewis was neither Joe Frazier nor Muhammad Ali, but he bore qualities of both fighters. He was a well rounded boxer, with a nice combination of speed, power, footwork and ring generalship. Lewis also had a fair amount of size at 6'5", 240 Lbs, or whatever he was in his prime. Most fighters of the 70's weren't constructed of these dimensions.

I'm guessing that George and Lewis would meet in the center of the ring, and right from the go, Foreman would be on the attack with Lewis retreating but only temporarily. Lewis would be cautious in the early rounds ,and apply the jab staying safely out of harms way. George would manage to land a few good shots, and perhaps even get Lennox on the ropes on a couple of occasions, but Lewis's saavy and sleekness would get him out of trouble. By the 6th or 7th round, we would start to see a frustrated Foreman, and a more confident Lewis, who at this point would probably have won 3 or 4 of the rounds. George is still aggressive but getting tired. He tries to tye up Lennox and nails him with a few gut check shots, then pushes him away to get him into mid range for a looping right. Lennox dodges most of George's attempts, maybe only taking a few off the tip of Foreman's glove. Neither man is messed up at this point, but both of them have bleeding lips and mild swelling. George However, is tiring heavily. His corner tells him he needs to get this one out of there. He is unsuccessful and continues to tire as the fight goes on.

The increasing dominance of Lewis eventually leads to a either a 15 round decision or knockout between rounds 9 and 15. Granted, George had the power to always have a punchers chance and we can't ignore this, however it wouldn't be enough to favor him either.

[FlatNose]

After some early trouble, Foreman would shake off some huge bombs from Lewis and eventually land his own in the 5th. Not having a chin as solid as George, Lennox would succumb to a right uppercut-left hook-overhand right to the jaw while George had him on the ropes.

[KayEpps]

I take Lewis for size advantage - foot work - and a pretty good jab that he would use to try and keep Foreman off of him.

[ChrisPontius]

Lewis and Emmanuel Steward would be well aware of Foreman's punching power as well as his technical flaws. Lewis would probably elect to box "small" George behind a stiff jab and throwing the occasional right hand which Foreman was quite open to, as Ali showed in their first round when he moved.

Foreman could get away with that sloppy, glove in the air, defense against a smaller come forward swarmer in Frazier and Norton who is bad on the backfoot, especially against punchers. But Ali took advantage of this flaw as well as Lyle and Young, and Lewis would, too.


I think Lewis' chin and recuperative abilities would take him through rough moments during the first four rounds. Lewis' chin is not as bad as perceived, took quite a lot of bombs and to top things off, Foreman is by no means a one-punch knockout artist. Foreman was best at landing hooks, uppercuts and wild swings while most of the time Lewis was caught by punches, they were straight shots.

After the 6th, Lewis would land jabs and straight shots with sickening regularity on a tiring and frustrated Foreman and by the 7th-8th i think Foreman would be knocked down several times with the referee ending the fight. Lewis TKO8 Foreman.

[sthomas]

:bbb Foreman by early KO maybe TKO. Too much pressure for Lewis to handle.

[Sweet Science]

Bit unfair as the Norton fight was peak Foreman, whilst Lewis did not hit his peak until Tua....

So I go for Foreman in a wild brawl off the floor in three.

I think it's quite difficult to pinpoint Lewis at his very best. He was very consistent throughout his career (apart from the two blips). I think an argument can be made for any point between 1997-2000 when Steward's influence had made him a better overall fighter. He had lost a little speed by the time he faced Tua.

[Bummy Davis]

Foreman has a great punchers chance, he had better power than both McCall and Rahman but I think Lewis aware of that fact would fight carefully and the younger version of Foreman,wideswinging and lacking stamina would tire, Lennox would keep him honest letting him feel his power and jab but FOREMAN ALWAYS DANGEROUS, AT LEAST UNTIL THE 7-8TH ROUND ROUND WHEN the Ref stops it in favor of Lennox

[mr. magoo]

I agree with everyone who picks Lennox Lewis to win this one, by I find it interesting that most people have chosen the 8th round as a potential stopping point. I assume that this is the concensus due to Foreman's being stopped by Ali in this very round. Keep in mind folks, that Foreman's decline in round eight was largely due to the fact that he had persued Ali very heavily for 8 rounds, had him on the ropes often, and even pounded on him quite a bit before tiring. They also fought outdoors in Zaire Africa on a very warm evening leading to Foreman succuming to heat exhaustion. It's not likely that Lewis and Foreman would fight in Africa if they ever met, and what's more, I'm not sure if Lewis could take the punishment that Ali did before wearing George down.


Again, I still agree that Lewis would take this fight, but I fear that some are picking the right man, but for the wrong reasons.

[TBooze]

I think it's quite difficult to pinpoint Lewis at his very best. He was very consistent throughout his career (apart from the two blips). I think an argument can be made for any point between 1997-2000 when Steward's influence had made him a better overall fighter. He had lost a little speed by the time he faced Tua.

I would agree with your summary, maybe Lewis was not quite as fast in the Tua fight, but he had a better boxing brain by then.

[Lacyace]

Lennox Lewis KO10. I love Lewis in this matchup seriously.

[ThePlugInBabies]

LEWIS HAS TEH GLASSJAW!!!!!!!111111!1!1!!ONEONE

FOREMAN KO STAREDOWN

(just before anyone else gets here first)

[mr. magoo]

LEWIS HAS TEH GLASSJAW!!!!!!!111111!1!1!!ONEONE

FOREMAN KO STAREDOWN

(just before anyone else gets here first)

Huh?

[Sonny's jab]

The superiority of the 70s HWs over the 90s HWs has been proved here already.

Therefore we gotta pick Foreman.

[ThePlugInBabies]

Huh?

beating the 'lewis had a glass jaw' brigade to this thread.



on another note, didn't big george say he would be scared to get in the ring with lewis?

[Sweet Science]

beating the 'lewis had a glass jaw' brigade to this thread.



on another note, didn't big george say he would be scared to get in the ring with lewis?

George was complimentary of nearly every boxer he discussed.

He also comes out with his fair share of crazy comments.

For example:

"Audley Harrison will be the next undisputed heavyweight champion of the world" :bart

[mr. magoo]

beating the 'lewis had a glass jaw' brigade to this thread.



on another note, didn't big george say he would be scared to get in the ring with lewis?

George also said he was "petrified" of Joe Frazier, and that Ken Norton was a "fearsome specimen". source: ( Champions Forever documentary, 1988 ) Didn't seem to prove much did it?

That said, I'd still pick Lewis to win, but I'm not sure I get your point.

[Doppleganger]

Lewis and Emmanuel Steward would be well aware of Foreman's punching power as well as his technical flaws. Lewis would probably elect to box "small" George behind a stiff jab and throwing the occasional right hand which Foreman was quite open to, as Ali showed in their first round when he moved.

Foreman could get away with that sloppy, glove in the air, defense against a smaller come forward swarmer in Frazier and Norton who is bad on the backfoot, especially against punchers. But Ali took advantage of this flaw as well as Lyle and Young, and Lewis would, too.


I think Lewis' chin and recuperative abilities would take him through rough moments during the first four rounds. Lewis' chin is not as bad as perceived, took quite a lot of bombs and to top things off, Foreman is by no means a one-punch knockout artist. Foreman was best at landing hooks, uppercuts and wild swings while most of the time Lewis was caught by punches, they were straight shots.

After the 6th, Lewis would land jabs and straight shots with sickening regularity on a tiring and frustrated Foreman and by the 7th-8th i think Foreman would be knocked down several times with the referee ending the fight. Lewis TKO8 Foreman. Good analysis Chris. I think also Lewis has to be somewhat aggressive with the jab and establish the centre of the ring, keeping Big George off balance with left jab, straight right combos, mixing it up with the right uppercut when Foreman comes inside. He has to repeat what he did against Tua with the jab, firing it hard one minute, soft the next, sometimes aiming to the shoulder to disrupt George's own jab and otherwise keep him off balance and guessing. Varying the hardness of the jab is a great and often underused tactic to keep your opponent off-balance. When he's not sure how hard the shot is coming at him, he can't get set for it properly.

However, if he is lacksadasial as he was against say Bruno it will spell trouble. He cannot allow Foreman to get in close and tee off. I don't think Lewis will be in that frame of mind so I see a gradual wearing down of Foreman ala the Lewis vs Tyson fight with a stoppage coming in Lewis's favour in around the same timeframe.

[BobDigi5060]

Lewis would have more ease than Ali because he was a bigger man. Lewis in 10.

[Vanboxingfan]

Good analysis Chris. I think also Lewis has to be somewhat aggressive with the jab and establish the centre of the ring, keeping Big George off balance with left jab, straight right combos, mixing it up with the right uppercut when Foreman comes inside. He has to repeat what he did against Tua with the jab, firing it hard one minute, soft the next, sometimes aiming to the shoulder to disrupt George's own jab and otherwise keep him off balance and guessing. Varying the hardness of the jab is a great and often underused tactic to keep your opponent off-balance. When he's not sure how hard the shot is coming at him, he can't get set for it properly.

However, if he is lacksadasial as he was against say Bruno it will spell trouble. He cannot allow Foreman to get in close and tee off. I don't think Lewis will be in that frame of mind so I see a gradual wearing down of Foreman ala the Lewis vs Tyson fight with a stoppage coming in Lewis's favour in around the same timeframe.

Me too. I think Lewis stops him sometime in the mid rounds between 7-9.

[brooklyn1550]

Lennox Lewis TKO9 George Foreman

[Sweet Science]

Foreman was an extremely hard puncher. Someone here mentioned he wasn't a 1 punch knockout artist, I completely disagree. It's not like Foreman chained together elaborate combo's and beat his opponents with the accumulation of shots. He was fairly slow and cumbersome, the power of his punches was monsterous. Lennox would easily outclass the primative skills of Foreman but for how long would Lewis's stay of execution last?

I believe Foreman to be the hardest hitting heavyweight that ever lived, this brings me nicley to Lennox Lewis's chin. While by no means was it of the china variety, lets be honest it certainly wasn't his best asset. George Foreman, the hardest punching heavyweight ever would test the chin of Lennox Lewis like no one else possibly could.

After losing every round George Foreman connects in round 6 to win by KO.

[Muchmoore]

Lewis would present stylistic problems but Foreman is too agressive and was a monster at that stage. Lewis wouldn't of been able to take a quarter of the punishment that Ali took, what Ali endured was unreal.

Foreman KO sometime in the middle rounds.

[Vanboxingfan]

Foreman was an extremely hard puncher. Someone here mentioned he wasn't a 1 punch knockout artist, I completely disagree. It's not like Foreman chained together elaborate combo's and beat his opponents with the accumulation of shots. He was fairly slow and cumbersome, the power of his punches was monsterous. Lennox would easily outclass the primative skills of Foreman but for how long would Lewis's stay of execution last?

I believe Foreman to be the hardest hitting heavyweight that ever lived, this brings me nicley to Lennox Lewis's chin. While by no means was it of the china variety, lets be honest it certainly wasn't his best asset. George Foreman, the hardest punching heavyweight ever would test the chin of Lennox Lewis like no one else possibly could.

After losing every round George Foreman connects in round 6 to win by KO.

Hard to say, that was the consenus going into both the Tua and the Tyson fights too. Never happened.

[Vanboxingfan]

It was not exactly easy for Ali in that fight. He was urinating blood for weeks afterwards from Foreman's assault on his body. I don't think any fighter in the world save for Chuvalo (who was basically a punching bag anyway) could have withstood what Ali withstood from Foreman in Zaire. Ali had intangibles that very few fighters in history have had. Lewis is tough but he did not have anywhere near Ali's determination, ability to take punches to the head or body, recuperative powers, ability to come back from the brink of defeat and rally back to win. Watch on youtube a washed up Ali get beaten around by Shavers in the 14th round and half of the the last round then come back out of nowhere to bludgeon Shavers with hooks and straight rights. Another 30 seconds and he would have had Shavers out of there. That was after Shavers fought three best rounds of his entire life in the 12th, 13th, 14th, and most the 15th rounds. The fearsome Roy "tiger" Williams, all 6-4, 231lbs. of him, was knocked down by Shavers in the 10th round and pitched foward unconcious after he got up. Ali took more rights from Shavers and STILL won the fight. Lewis had a war with Ray Mercer but Mercer is no Shavers in the power department.

I'd go futher and say no way Chuvalo takes that amount of body puhishment. Punches to the chin and the body are NOT the same. Nobody could have taken that amount of punshment besides Ali. That aside, Lewis would never have put himself in that position to begin with and it would be extremely unlikely that Foreman could get Lewis to do a rope a dope.

[Vanboxingfan]

Lewis would present stylistic problems but Foreman is too agressive and was a monster at that stage. Lewis wouldn't of been able to take a quarter of the punishment that Ali took, what Ali endured was unreal.

Foreman KO sometime in the middle rounds.

I agree that Lewis couldn't take that amount of punishment. Where I disagree is that I don't think Foreman gets the opportunity to deliver this type of punishment to begin with.

[Doppleganger]

Lennox Lewis isn't fast enough,doesn't have the chin and Foreman has face countless big punchers and only Ron Lyle was able to drop him (Ali and Young dropped him but it wasn't because of their power) Most of the time Lewis is pretty passive which would lead to him being knocked out.If he camed to slug like he did against Golota then he would be knocked out.If you want to talk about stamina which i am sure you little kids will bring up if Lewis could get Foreman past 3 rounds he would tire him and stop him nonsense (Again Foreman had 47 fights in his prime winning 45 losing 2 with 42 knockouts so it is pretty silly to question his stamina when he won most of his fights by knock out and most of them pretty early isn't it?But when fighters like Peralta boxed him and lasted more than 3 rounds he never showed any stamina problems.In the Ali fight he got tired because he loaded up on every single punch not to mention Ali continually grabbing him behind the neck pulling him down .Name any other 230 plus pound guy who threw bombs for 8 rounds and didnt get a little tired and in the Jimmy Young fight he was told to come to Puerto Rico 3 weeks ahead of time to get used to the head and according to Gil Clancy his trainer at that point in time Foreman showed up 3 days before the fight.
Lewis was out on his butt against Vitali Klitscko.He was tired in the first Rahman fight after a few rounds.He was tired countless other times as well.The stamina problem would never really matter.With the acception of Rahman name another half way decent fighter in their prime that Lewis stopped.He landed countless punches on a washed up Holyfield and couldnt do the damage that a old washed up Foreman did against a prime Holyfield.Shannon Briggs who fought both Lewis and Foreman claimed Foreman punched hard when Foreman was 48 and Lewis was in his prime.You might say Lewis knocked out Briggs and Foreman did not.Well Briggs was willing to stand and trade with Lewis after he hurt Lewis and Briggs pretty much ran like a girl when he realized his power could do nothing against Foreman but yet Foreman's slow pitty pat looking punches could hurt him.
I can't picture any out come but a knock out for Foreman and i can't see anyway Lewis last more than 3 rounds.
You know, this post is so blatantly ignorant that it was a complete waste of time posting it. Sorry.

[KTFO]

LEWIS HAS TEH GLASSJAW!!!!!!!111111!1!1!!ONEONE

FOREMAN KO STAREDOWN

(just before anyone else gets here first)





:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl

[McGrain]

I agree with everyone who picks Lennox Lewis to win this one, by I find it interesting that most people have chosen the 8th round as a potential stopping point.

:lol:

Interesting point!

I pick Lewis. No money going down. I don't think Foreman will tire as badly as other might assume at the pace Lewis will fight - Foreman is a live dog in this one, no money going down for me.

If I had to pick a round...maybe 8?

[MachineGunMitch]

Forman by KO 9

[Lostmykeys]

I think that Lewis would come out slow like he normally does and it would spell disaster for him.

Foreman would check Lewis's chin and it would be lights out.

Foreman KO5

[Executioner]

Lewis KO

[The Kurgan]

I think that Lewis would come out slow like he normally does and it would spell disaster for him.

Foreman would check Lewis's chin and it would be lights out.

Foreman KO5

A prime Lewis never came out slow against big dangerous punchers like Foreman- see his bouts with Golota, Grant and Vitali. He just didn't like being in a ring with someone who he felt could easily reach him with a KO punch. If anyone is going to be on the defensive in the early stages, it's Foreman.

[Executioner]

You beat me to it. When Lewis fought big fuckers, he went for the kill.

[Muchmoore]

A prime Lewis never came out slow against big dangerous punchers like Foreman- see his bouts with Golota, Grant and Vitali. He just didn't like being in a ring with someone who he felt could easily reach him with a KO punch. If anyone is going to be on the defensive in the early stages, it's Foreman.

Young Foreman didn't know what it was like to be defensive.

Grant and Golota are jokes and not a tenth of the force 70s Foreman was. Vitali is maybe half of what he was.

Lewis came out slow and hesitant against an old shot Mike Tyson because he feared his power. Young Foreman was more intimidating and far more dangerous.

[AnthonyJ74]

Ali was probably the only man on earth who could have beaten the Foreman of 74'. Lewis was great but he could not hang with a prime Foreman. Foreman would kayo Lewis early.

Foreman (1974) KO 4 Lewis (1997)

I don't necessarily agree with your forecasted outcome between a Foreman/Lewis fight, but I definately share your awe of the 1974 Foreman. I used to think that Ali outboxed George en route to knocking him out. But I read a very good article online a few years back that changed my outlook on that fight. Ali tried to outbox Foreman, but he realized that he couldn't. So, he went to the "rope" strategy and beat George another way. Foreman was so aggressive and charged ahead with such intent, that Ali really had only two options: stand and trade with George, or do what he elected to do and go to the ropes! Foreman was indeed a monster, and he would have beaten a lot of the past greats. The Foreman that fought under the tutelage of Gil Clancy was, in my opinion, a clearly inferior Foreman. At that stage of his career, George tried to box at a more measured pace, and his natural aggressiveness was tempered. While I thik Lennox Lewis definately had a lot more firepower than did Ali, it still would have been a very ticklish fight for as long as it lasted. I think Lewis definately had the skills to beat Foreman, and he had enough power to hurt him as well. But George could really crack!

[Lostmykeys]

A prime Lewis never came out slow against big dangerous punchers like Foreman- see his bouts with Golota, Grant and Vitali. He just didn't like being in a ring with someone who he felt could easily reach him with a KO punch. If anyone is going to be on the defensive in the early stages, it's Foreman.

There is no way that any version of Lewis is going to be more aggressive in the early rounds than a prime George Foreman. Foreman had more power than Golota, Vitali and Garant and if Lewis got caught which we know he can/will he's going out.

[The Kurgan]

Young Foreman didn't know what it was like to be defensive.

Au contrare, mon frere- Foreman was on the back foot for almost the entire Chuvalo fight. He was doing the "retarded elephant dance" for the early Frazier fight until he found his balls and started to fight an inactive Joe.

Faced with a taller, stronger and more aggressive Lewis, Foreman has nothing to do except the "retarded elephant dance". From that position, his punches have little power and his defense is similar to Rahman's in its made-to-order nature for Lewis.

There is a myth that Foreman was an eternally front-foot fighting machine who went forward in every fight and demolished his opponent. Yet, in one of his most famous fights (the Sunshine Showdown) Foreman starts off by trying to out-box Frazier. Indeed, Foreman used to train to be a dancer like Ali.

Foreman going on the defensive is an impossible strategy for him, but it's the only one for him. Going forward against Lewis is suicide for Foreman, whose zombie-style arm positioning leaves him wide open for Lewis's overhand rights and left hooks.

Grant and Golota are jokes and not a tenth of the force 70s Foreman was. Vitali is maybe half of what he was.

Logically then, Lewis would be more aggressive and imposing against Foreman than ever before. Foreman would bring out the demon in Lewis, shortly before Big George started paying vists to Hotel Canvas.

Lewis came out slow and hesitant against an old shot Mike Tyson because he feared his power. Young Foreman was more intimidating and far more dangerous.

Tyson is a completely different fighter to Foreman. Or hadn't you noticed? Foreman, like Grant or Golota, is a tall fighter with the reach to get to Lewis. Lewis would know he couldn't do to Foreman what he did to Tyson and Tua (beat them into a shell and then humilitate them). Thus, he'd go for his alternative strategy against punchers, which was to bomb them out.

The more Foreman intimidates Lewis, the more destructive and concienscious Lewis will be. A Lewis who was aggressive and respectful of his opponent's power was real wrecking-ball; one who was just as powerful as Foreman, but also more skilled, bigger, stronger, faster and with better reflexes. Foreman is totally outmatched here.

Incidentally, Tyson was not shot against Lewis. Get your facts straight or don't come on here.

[The Kurgan]

There is no way that any version of Lewis is going to be more aggressive in the early rounds than a prime George Foreman. Foreman had more power than Golota, Vitali and Garant and if Lewis got caught which we know he can/will he's going out.

Of course Lewis will be more aggressive. Compare Lewis's aggressiveness against Golota and Grant with Foreman's aggressiveness against Frazier and Norton. :deal

[Rollo]

Foreman is nothing like Michael Grant who didn´t know what to do with his power. Foreman actually hit his target - again and again, and HARD. Lennox lacks the chin it requires to be succesful in this one.

[The Kurgan]

Foreman is nothing like Michael Grant who didn´t know what to do with his power. Foreman actually hit his target - again and again, and HARD. Lennox lacks the chin it requires to be succesful in this one.

Like Michael Grant, Foreman is going to do his utmost best every time he attacks to get nailed with Lewis's uppercuts. Foreman isn't going to be on his feet for long, given his lack of defense against this punch.

Let's not portray Foreman like some sort of offensive genius. At his most effective he swung from side-to-side with hooks from both left and right. Lewis, a counter-puncher by birth, is going to have plenty of opportunities to hit and not be hit.

[Rollo]

Like Michael Grant, Foreman is going to do his utmost best every time he attacks to get nailed with Lewis's uppercuts. Foreman isn't going to be on his feet for long, given his lack of defense against this punch.

Let's not portray Foreman like some sort of offensive genius. At his most effective he swung from side-to-side with hooks from both left and right. Lewis, a counter-puncher by birth, is going to have plenty of opportunities to hit and not be hit.

I am not portraying Foreman as any sort of genius at all, but he did have loads of power and a great chin. LL would be able to land like Ali did, but then the scond round starts and Lennox doesn´t have Ali´s chin.

[Muchmoore]

Let's not portray Foreman like some sort of offensive genius. At his most effective he swung from side-to-side with hooks from both left and right.

But they landed.

[Muchmoore]

Incidentally, Tyson was not shot against Lewis. Get your facts straight or don't come on here.

:lol:

I and most that watched it must have seen a different fight than you.

[The Kurgan]

I am not portraying Foreman as any sort of genius at all, but he did have loads of power and a great chin. LL would be able to land like Ali did, but then the scond round starts and Lennox doesn´t have Ali´s chin.

If Lewis lands like Ali did, then Foreman wouldn't get to see the second round.

But they landed.

Against defensively inferior opposition, they did. Charley Polite was able to go three rounds without Foreman landing solidly in their exhibition fight, using one of the most primitive defenses imaginable. Jimmy Young was able to really only take one punch of significance in an entire fight against Foreman, using no technique which Lewis couldn't emulate.

Even Ali, laying on the ropes, took only about five solid shots to the chin in the entire fight.

[The Kurgan]

:lol:

I and most that watched it must have seen a different fight than you.

Tyson was old, but he was not shot. Nor was he shot a year later when he knocked Etienne out in less than a minute. To seriously suggest that Tyson was shot is to have no appreciation of how to use boxing terminology.

[Muchmoore]

Against defensively inferior opposition, they did. Charley Polite was able to go three rounds without Foreman landing solidly in their exhibition fight, using one of the most primitive defenses imaginable. Jimmy Young was able to really only take one punch of significance in an entire fight against Foreman, using no technique which Lewis couldn't emulate.

Even Ali, laying on the ropes, took only about five solid shots to the chin in the entire fight.

I wouldn't call Joe Frazier inferior opposition. The Foreman that fought Young didn't even try to knock him out for most of the fight, he wanted to show he could go the distance.

Foreman landed a lot more than 5 shots on Ali to the chin.

[Muchmoore]

Tyson was old, but he was not shot. Nor was he shot a year later when he knocked Etienne out in less than a minute. To seriously suggest that Tyson was shot is to have no appreciation of how to use boxing terminology.

When Etienne was dropped he took the mouthpiece out and then put his head back down and pretended he was out. The fight meant nothing except that Etienne was terrified.

Tyson wasn't as shot as he was against Williams, but if you say he wasn't at least way past his best is crazy.

[prime]

Ring Magazine's "50 Greatest Fights You Never Saw"
14.10.03 - By Frank Lotierzo
George Foreman vs. Lennox Lewis

I know this will upset many Lewis fans, but I don't see Lewis ever beating the Foreman who fought Frazier and Ali in 1973-74. In this match up The Ring picked Lewis to stop Foreman in the 10th round. This after he was ruled down in the sixth round. Excuse me, but I can't recall the time Lewis got up to beat the count after he was dropped. Their theory is based on Lewis being able to circle and box while using his greater strength to hold Foreman off when he gets close. I think it borders on comedic to even suggest Lewis is as strong as Foreman.

Let's make one thing perfectly clear. Despite spotting Lewis some weight, Foreman was definitely stronger than Lewis. In fact, Foreman at 42 or 43 was stronger than any version of Lewis. If Lewis is so strong, how was he pushed all over the ring by Ray Mercer, and Evander Holyfield in their second fight? A prime Holyfield couldn't physically control a 42 year old Foreman. Foreman, is stronger than both Holyfield and Mercer when he's sleeping. When it comes to punching power, Foreman is superior to Lewis with either hand. And that's not up for debate. An old Foreman rocked a prime Holyfield more so than Lewis did a shot Holyfield. There is absolutely no doubt, Foreman is physically stronger, and is a better puncher than Lewis with either hand.

Is there any comparison between Foreman and Lewis when it comes to who has the better chin? This is a no brainer. Foreman was only stopped once, by Ali. And that was due to exhaustion and being hit many times over the course of eight rounds. The only time Foreman was ever hurt by a punch was in his fight with Ron Lyle, who hit harder than either McCall or Rahman, the two fighters who stopped Lewis. Foreman also walked through Joe Frazier's left hook without being shook a bit. Like with Lyle, Frazier's hook is harder than anything that McCall or Rahman posses. To deny this is ridiculous. Lewis on the other hand was not only KO'd by McCall and Rahman, but he was hurt and shook by Akinwande, Tucker, Bruno, and Briggs. Again, nothing they throw is in the same zip code as Frazier's hook or Lyle's right. And Lewis cannot be given full credit for standing up to Tyson's punch, because Tyson never really tug Lewis with his best. Foreman at age 41, even walked through Cooney's best hook's. The bottom line is Foreman has one of the greatest chins in heavyweight history, something Lewis will never be accused of.

In a Foreman vs. Lewis fight, I see Lewis having one shot. Get Foreman deep into the fight. If Lewis could make it to the 10th round versus Foreman, he may be able to out box him and win a decision. However, I don't see Lewis making it that far against a prime Foreman. Lewis has nothing in his arsenal to keep a raging Foreman of the 70's from tearing through him. No doubt Foreman only needs one good one to knock Lewis out. In a match up with Foreman, Lewis' better boxing ability would be a non factor, he'd never last long enough to box him. In a fight matching the best Foreman vs. the best Lewis, Foreman walks through Lewis and stops him within three or four rounds. I don't even think this is an intriguing fight, it's too one sided in favor of Foreman. Lastly, don't believe the crap that Foreman thinks Lewis is the greatest heavyweight champ of all time. I know his brother and some others who know him personally, believe me he doesn't think as highly of Lewis as he says he does on HBO. Get him off camera and off the record and his evaluation of Lewis is dramatically different.

[satch]

Lewis The Boxer vs. Tua, Holy, and, until he judged it to be in the bag, vs. Tyson. All dangerous, all smaller and kept on the outside by the Lewis Jab and reach.

Lewis the Destroyer vs. Golota, Grant and Ruddock. All big men, strong but less polished than LL. This version even showed up in LL last fight, but he was past peak and got into a whale of a scrap.

Who's to say that v Big George it isn't Lewis the Destroyer who steps in the ring. It Foreman Lyle all over again, but this time Lyle is bigger, stronger and WAY better schooled.

George, you're one of my ATG's, but I don't see you gettin' out of the second round. Lewis be too damned scared of you to let that happen.

[Doppleganger]

Beautifully stated! This thread has been answered! Unfortunately incorrect though IMO. The author does not attempt to hide the fact that he is not a Lennox Lewis fan. That alone invalidates his argument to some degree if he can't show a degree of impartiality. It is a bit misleading to use observational evidence from several fights (both their fights against Holyfield) and then deduce some kind of 'fact' from that. Things are not as simple as that. He states that nothing the likes of Briggs or Bruno threw was in the same zip code as Frazier's hook or Lyle's right. Given that Bruno at least was one of the strongest right hand punchers of the last 30 years and someone with a 95% KO percentage I find that slightly discourtious to say the least. To state that Foreman only needs 'one good punch' to knock Lewis out is naive and demonstrates an ignorance of why Lewis lost his only 2 fights. If one good shot is all that is needed how come Tyson, Tua, Bruno, Klitshcko et al couldn't do it with several?

How does the author know that Tyson did not hit Lewis with full power? Tyson may have not been the force of old when he fought Lewis but they say power is the last thing to go and Tyson was probably a bigger single shot puncher than in his prime. He hit Lewis with full leverage left hooks and I cannot see how anyone can categorically claim that Tyson never hit Lewis with his best shots. We just don't know for sure but it certainly looked like it to me watching. The one thing that everyone can agree on with old Tyson was that he was still a fearsome puncher.

In short the author hypes up Foreman's strengths and denigrates Lewis's strengths. Foreman indeed has a very solid chin but he's not invincible. He may indeed be able to take the overhand right of Lewis several times but if he takes too many even Foreman may find himself being worn down. The author builds up Foreman to be some kind of iron chinned, nuclear powered Demigod. The truth of the matter though is that Foreman is a man and not invincible. Foreman has never been in the ring with someone with the arsenal of Lennox Lewis. Lewis would fear Foreman and sometimes when that happens all Lewis wants to do is get the man out of there. Whilst it might seem quite unlikely that Lennox would bomb out Big George early it also seemed highly unlikely that he would bomb out Ruddock and Golota early but he did. As for the article it's a deeply flawed, subjective piece of journalism and not worthy of the 'Ring Magazine' IMO.

[Holmes' Jab]

Lewis and Emmanuel Steward would be well aware of Foreman's punching power as well as his technical flaws. Lewis would probably elect to box "small" George behind a stiff jab and throwing the occasional right hand which Foreman was quite open to, as Ali showed in their first round when he moved.

Foreman could get away with that sloppy, glove in the air, defense against a smaller come forward swarmer in Frazier and Norton who is bad on the backfoot, especially against punchers. But Ali took advantage of this flaw as well as Lyle and Young, and Lewis would, too.


I think Lewis' chin and recuperative abilities would take him through rough moments during the first four rounds. Lewis' chin is not as bad as perceived, took quite a lot of bombs and to top things off, Foreman is by no means a one-punch knockout artist. Foreman was best at landing hooks, uppercuts and wild swings while most of the time Lewis was caught by punches, they were straight shots.

After the 6th, Lewis would land jabs and straight shots with sickening regularity on a tiring and frustrated Foreman and by the 7th-8th i think Foreman would be knocked down several times with the referee ending the fight. Lewis TKO8 Foreman.

A mostly spot on post, mate. I couldn't have put it better myself. You've probably saved me from typing what would be a startingly similar analysis to the points you've already made. In addition the Lewis uppercut might prove to be a big factor in this fight.

Foremans good chin might take him a few rounds later than what you've stated. Lewis TKO11 Foreman. :good

[JohnThomas1]

I don't necessarily agree with your forecasted outcome between a Foreman/Lewis fight, but I definately share your awe of the 1974 Foreman. I used to think that Ali outboxed George en route to knocking him out. But I read a very good article online a few years back that changed my outlook on that fight. Ali tried to outbox Foreman, but he realized that he couldn't. So, he went to the "rope" strategy and beat George another way. Foreman was so aggressive and charged ahead with such intent, that Ali really had only two options: stand and trade with George, or do what he elected to do and go to the ropes! Foreman was indeed a monster, and he would have beaten a lot of the past greats. The Foreman that fought under the tutelage of Gil Clancy was, in my opinion, a clearly inferior Foreman. At that stage of his career, George tried to box at a more measured pace, and his natural aggressiveness was tempered. While I thik Lennox Lewis definately had a lot more firepower than did Ali, it still would have been a very ticklish fight for as long as it lasted. I think Lewis definately had the skills to beat Foreman, and he had enough power to hurt him as well. But George could really crack!

Clancy claims all Foreman would do training for Ali is chop wood and hit the heavy bag, and nothing was going to change it. He says his punches got wider and harder, as well as slower. He says Foreman was never going to hit anybody with them.

That's his hindsight comments.

[fists of fury]

Ring Magazine's "50 Greatest Fights You Never Saw"
14.10.03 - By Frank Lotierzo
George Foreman vs. Lennox Lewis

I know this will upset many Lewis fans, but I don't see Lewis ever beating the Foreman who fought Frazier and Ali in 1973-74. In this match up The Ring picked Lewis to stop Foreman in the 10th round. This after he was ruled down in the sixth round. Excuse me, but I can't recall the time Lewis got up to beat the count after he was dropped. Their theory is based on Lewis being able to circle and box while using his greater strength to hold Foreman off when he gets close. I think it borders on comedic to even suggest Lewis is as strong as Foreman.

Let's make one thing perfectly clear. Despite spotting Lewis some weight, Foreman was definitely stronger than Lewis. In fact, Foreman at 42 or 43 was stronger than any version of Lewis. If Lewis is so strong, how was he pushed all over the ring by Ray Mercer, and Evander Holyfield in their second fight? A prime Holyfield couldn't physically control a 42 year old Foreman. Foreman, is stronger than both Holyfield and Mercer when he's sleeping. When it comes to punching power, Foreman is superior to Lewis with either hand. And that's not up for debate. An old Foreman rocked a prime Holyfield more so than Lewis did a shot Holyfield. There is absolutely no doubt, Foreman is physically stronger, and is a better puncher than Lewis with either hand.

Is there any comparison between Foreman and Lewis when it comes to who has the better chin? This is a no brainer. Foreman was only stopped once, by Ali. And that was due to exhaustion and being hit many times over the course of eight rounds. The only time Foreman was ever hurt by a punch was in his fight with Ron Lyle, who hit harder than either McCall or Rahman, the two fighters who stopped Lewis. Foreman also walked through Joe Frazier's left hook without being shook a bit. Like with Lyle, Frazier's hook is harder than anything that McCall or Rahman posses. To deny this is ridiculous. Lewis on the other hand was not only KO'd by McCall and Rahman, but he was hurt and shook by Akinwande, Tucker, Bruno, and Briggs. Again, nothing they throw is in the same zip code as Frazier's hook or Lyle's right. And Lewis cannot be given full credit for standing up to Tyson's punch, because Tyson never really tug Lewis with his best. Foreman at age 41, even walked through Cooney's best hook's. The bottom line is Foreman has one of the greatest chins in heavyweight history, something Lewis will never be accused of.

In a Foreman vs. Lewis fight, I see Lewis having one shot. Get Foreman deep into the fight. If Lewis could make it to the 10th round versus Foreman, he may be able to out box him and win a decision. However, I don't see Lewis making it that far against a prime Foreman. Lewis has nothing in his arsenal to keep a raging Foreman of the 70's from tearing through him. No doubt Foreman only needs one good one to knock Lewis out. In a match up with Foreman, Lewis' better boxing ability would be a non factor, he'd never last long enough to box him. In a fight matching the best Foreman vs. the best Lewis, Foreman walks through Lewis and stops him within three or four rounds. I don't even think this is an intriguing fight, it's too one sided in favor of Foreman. Lastly, don't believe the crap that Foreman thinks Lewis is the greatest heavyweight champ of all time. I know his brother and some others who know him personally, believe me he doesn't think as highly of Lewis as he says he does on HBO. Get him off camera and off the record and his evaluation of Lewis is dramatically different.

An interesting post this.

However, barring Lewis getting caught with a huge Foreman bomb, I pick Lewis.
He was more versatile and well-rounded, not to mention more disciplined. I think Foreman's jab gives Lewis problems though...

[ChrisPontius]

I am not portraying Foreman as any sort of genius at all, but he did have loads of power and a great chin. LL would be able to land like Ali did, but then the scond round starts and Lennox doesn´t have Ali´s chin.

Foreman had a great chin in his comeback, not early on.

He was dropped twice by Lyle (arguably saved by the bell on the second occasion); Lewis punches harder than Lyle and is much better at landing his punches or putting together combinations.
He was dropped by light hitting Ali & Young. You may say that he was exhausted, but so what? What do you think will happen when he's tired and he's facing a devastating puncher instead of relatively light hitting opponents?

Foreman hit Ali on the chin very few times. I would say no more than 8 times in the entire fight, which would be once per round on average. Most boxers can take that and Ali never seemed to be in trouble. Foreman is not a one punch KO type of fighter.

On the contrary, if you watch with how much ease a non-prime Ali was able to land straight shots, then you can be guaranteed that Lewis is bad news for Foreman.


By the way, i do give Foreman a good punchers chance which he has against anyone, but i do favor Lewis because of a stylistic point of view.

[Sweet Science]

Foreman is not a one punch KO type of fighter.

I completely disagree. It's not like Foreman chained together elaborate combo's and beat his opponents with the accumulation of his shots. He was fairly slow and cumbersome, the power of his punches was monsterous. The hardest hitting heavyweight ever.

Foreman had a great chin in his comeback, not early on.

A fighters chin is the only attribute that cannot be improved over time. You can't train a chin to become stronger. Foreman's chin was as solid in the 70's as it was in the 80's and 90's.
Lyle hits harder than Lewis. Lyle was probably the third hardest hitting heavy ever after Foreman and Shavers.

[mr. magoo]

[quote=ChrisPontius]Foreman had a great chin in his comeback, not early on.


How does a fighter's chin improve as time goes on? Especially when comparing a guy in his forties to when he was in his twenties?

[JohnThomas1]

[quote]


How does a fighter's chin improve as time goes on? Especially when comparing a guy in his forties to when he was in his twenties?

Well Manassa and Stonehands subscribe to the theory that a rise in weight makes your neck etc bigger and gives you more punch resistence. They mention this when the likes of Toney is brought up. I'm not sure i go for it but for posterity Foreman was 220 vs Ali and 257 vs Holyfield if you get the point. He also paced himself well exhaustion wise latter career.

Just added this for debate

:D

[mr. magoo]

[quote=mr. magoo]

Well Manassa and Stonehands subscribe to the theory that a rise in weight makes your neck etc bigger and gives you more punch resistence. They mention this when the likes of Toney is brought up. I'm not sure i go for it but for posterity Foreman was 220 vs Ali and 257 vs Holyfield if you get the point. He also paced himself well exhaustion wise latter career.

Just added this for debate

:D

The development of such muscle groups as the levator scapuli, Trapezius, and a few other groups, can help to stabalize the head and neck, resulting in a greater ability to withstand trauma to the upper body and even the head. So in essence, what you're saying has some validity, but these things are still unrelated to the actual chin, and weather or not it changes over time.

[JohnThomas1]

[quote=JohnThomas1]

The development of such muscle groups as the levator scapuli, Trapezius, and a few other groups, can help to stabalize the head and neck, resulting in a greater ability to withstand trauma to the upper body and even the head. So in essence, what you're saying has some validity, but these things are still unrelated to the actual chin, and weather or not it changes over time.

I'll leave others to debate it, just thought i'd chuck it out there. At the end of the day it's all about brain rattle

:D

[mr. magoo]

[quote=mr. magoo]

I'll leave others to debate it, just thought i'd chuck it out there. At the end of the day it's all about brain rattle

:D

We'll let Dr. Pointius give us his expert opinion.

[ChrisPontius]

How does a fighter's chin improve as time goes on? Especially when comparing a guy in his forties to when he was in his twenties?


By adding more mass, by gaining experience and in Foreman's case, by learning how to keep your balance, how to keep a tight guard and actually have a defense. These things all matter. And we saw that as Foreman was never floored again. I'm not saying that his chin was weak earlier on, but there's only so much you can take, especially with that wild, uncontrolled and open style of his.

[mr. magoo]

By adding more mass, by gaining experience and in Foreman's case, by learning how to keep your balance, how to keep a tight guard and actually have a defense. These things all matter. And we saw that as Foreman was never floored again. I'm not saying that his chin was weak earlier on, but there's only so much you can take, especially with that wild, uncontrolled and open style of his.

These are all valid points, but what do they have to do with you're intial statement about his having an improved chin later? I will once again ask, how does a chin improve?

[JohnThomas1]

These are all valid points, but what do they have to do with you're intial statement about his having an improved chin later? I will once again ask, how does a chin improve?

Well IMO he obviously means George was more resistent to a stoppage second career.

[mr. magoo]

Well IMO he obviously means George was more resistent to a stoppage second career.

There are many things that contribute to resilience to punishment. Stamina, conditioning, age, defensive skills, mental resolve,etc. Chris's statement however is that Foreman's chin was better at a later stage in life. One possible theory that Chris may have is that the bone density of Foreman's chin may have thickened as a result of his calcium intake from all the ice cream he loved to eat, but frankly I have my doubts.

[ChrisPontius]

These are all valid points, but what do they have to do with you're intial statement about his having an improved chin later? I will once again ask, how does a chin improve?

As JT pointed out, chin is just a name for the ability to take a punch, which is exactly what i was alluding to. Due to several reasons pointed out earlier, Foreman's "chin" improved in the sense that he could take a much better shot without going down. :good

[mr. magoo]

ChrisPontius]As JT pointed out, chin is just a name for the ability to take a punch, which is exactly what i was alluding to.


Not necessarily. When a fighter gets nailed on right on the jaw area or on the chin and is KO'd, his chin is in question, and is deemed as having a glass chin. Jerry Quarry was prone to being stopped on cuts, yet he was known to have a decent chin.


[/quote][

Due to several reasons pointed out earlier, Foreman's "chin" improved in the sense that he could take a much better shot without going down.
Foreman put on some mass, and greatly developed his defensive skills, resulting in his abilty to stay on his feet, but that has nothing to do with a change in a fighter's chin

Below is a definition for you,

[Only registered and activated users can see links](boxing)

[ChrisPontius]

Yes, but the point is that when you brace yourself for a shot, are in the correct stance, or roll with the punch, etc, you can take a better shot on the chin than when you've just missed a wild swing, are off balance and a hard right uppercut hits you unseen on the chin.


But ok, to make things clear, i will say that Foreman was a lot more durable in his career than in his first. And this thread was about the Foreman who fought Norton/Ali, which is the lesser durable one. So no, i wouldn't be suprised if Lewis finished what Lyle started or if Lewis finishes when Foreman is exhausted a la Young / Ali.

[Vanboxingfan]

Ring Magazine's "50 Greatest Fights You Never Saw"
14.10.03 - By Frank Lotierzo
George Foreman vs. Lennox Lewis

I know this will upset many Lewis fans, but I don't see Lewis ever beating the Foreman who fought Frazier and Ali in 1973-74. In this match up The Ring picked Lewis to stop Foreman in the 10th round. This after he was ruled down in the sixth round. Excuse me, but I can't recall the time Lewis got up to beat the count after he was dropped. Their theory is based on Lewis being able to circle and box while using his greater strength to hold Foreman off when he gets close. I think it borders on comedic to even suggest Lewis is as strong as Foreman.

Let's make one thing perfectly clear. Despite spotting Lewis some weight, Foreman was definitely stronger than Lewis. In fact, Foreman at 42 or 43 was stronger than any version of Lewis. If Lewis is so strong, how was he pushed all over the ring by Ray Mercer, and Evander Holyfield in their second fight? A prime Holyfield couldn't physically control a 42 year old Foreman. Foreman, is stronger than both Holyfield and Mercer when he's sleeping. When it comes to punching power, Foreman is superior to Lewis with either hand. And that's not up for debate. An old Foreman rocked a prime Holyfield more so than Lewis did a shot Holyfield. There is absolutely no doubt, Foreman is physically stronger, and is a better puncher than Lewis with either hand.

Is there any comparison between Foreman and Lewis when it comes to who has the better chin? This is a no brainer. Foreman was only stopped once, by Ali. And that was due to exhaustion and being hit many times over the course of eight rounds. The only time Foreman was ever hurt by a punch was in his fight with Ron Lyle, who hit harder than either McCall or Rahman, the two fighters who stopped Lewis. Foreman also walked through Joe Frazier's left hook without being shook a bit. Like with Lyle, Frazier's hook is harder than anything that McCall or Rahman posses. To deny this is ridiculous. Lewis on the other hand was not only KO'd by McCall and Rahman, but he was hurt and shook by Akinwande, Tucker, Bruno, and Briggs. Again, nothing they throw is in the same zip code as Frazier's hook or Lyle's right. And Lewis cannot be given full credit for standing up to Tyson's punch, because Tyson never really tug Lewis with his best. Foreman at age 41, even walked through Cooney's best hook's. The bottom line is Foreman has one of the greatest chins in heavyweight history, something Lewis will never be accused of.

In a Foreman vs. Lewis fight, I see Lewis having one shot. Get Foreman deep into the fight. If Lewis could make it to the 10th round versus Foreman, he may be able to out box him and win a decision. However, I don't see Lewis making it that far against a prime Foreman. Lewis has nothing in his arsenal to keep a raging Foreman of the 70's from tearing through him. No doubt Foreman only needs one good one to knock Lewis out. In a match up with Foreman, Lewis' better boxing ability would be a non factor, he'd never last long enough to box him. In a fight matching the best Foreman vs. the best Lewis, Foreman walks through Lewis and stops him within three or four rounds. I don't even think this is an intriguing fight, it's too one sided in favor of Foreman. Lastly, don't believe the crap that Foreman thinks Lewis is the greatest heavyweight champ of all time. I know his brother and some others who know him personally, believe me he doesn't think as highly of Lewis as he says he does on HBO. Get him off camera and off the record and his evaluation of Lewis is dramatically different.

Funny, I have a Ring magazine article at home claiming Lewis would beat Foreman in about 6 rounds. I'll post it later.

[prime]

Clarification, guys: Frank Lotierzo, a boxing writer who once collaborated here in fact, was responding in the piece I posted to the Ring Magazine article "50 Greatest Fights You Never Saw."

[Vanboxingfan]

Clarification, guys: Frank Lotierzo, a boxing writer who once collaborated here in fact, was responding in the piece I posted to the Ring Magazine article "50 Greatest Fights You Never Saw."

Which makes sense because I have this edition at home and the results and the analysis were basically the complete opposite of his.

[Sweet Science]

[quote=mr. magoo]

Well Manassa and Stonehands subscribe to the theory that a rise in weight makes your neck etc bigger and gives you more punch resistence. They mention this when the likes of Toney is brought up. I'm not sure i go for it but for posterity Foreman was 220 vs Ali and 257 vs Holyfield if you get the point. He also paced himself well exhaustion wise latter career.

Just added this for debate

:D

I've not been here long, guess you could class me as a newbe. So I don't know who Stonehands is. However, I have come accross Manassa. He may be an ESB veteran but his theory of a rise in weight providing greater punch resistence is bollocks. Just because Manassa subscibes to this ludicrous theory, this is not a good enough reason to jusify Chris Pontius's earlier post that Foreman's chin was initially weaker earlier in his career and that it improved over time. In my short time here I have observed that although Manassa is knowledgable he tends to suffer from sporadic bouts of verbal diarrhea.

[robert ungurean]

The first hard shot George lands ,Its over.

[NickHudson]

:lol:

There are many things that contribute to resilience to punishment. Stamina, conditioning, age, defensive skills, mental resolve,etc. Chris's statement however is that Foreman's chin was better at a later stage in life. One possible theory that Chris may have is that the bone density of Foreman's chin may have thickened as a result of his calcium intake from all the ice cream he loved to eat, but frankly I have my doubts.

[Ted Stickles]

I think George would take him....Gerge has a better chin and has been down and gotten back up,when Lewis went down he usually stayed there...And George was not knocked out by Ali he was beat into exhaustion...

[The Kurgan]

I wouldn't call Joe Frazier inferior opposition.

I didn't either. I called him defensively inferior. Someone who goes forward with their chin extended, little head movement and an open defensive hole for uppercuts is not what I would call a defensively sound boxer.

The Foreman that fought Young didn't even try to knock him out for most of the fight, he wanted to show he could go the distance.

Hmm. He didn't look like he wasn't trying to knock out Young, especially in the 7th. He looked like an ogre who was desperately trying not to fall flat on his face every time he attacked.

Foreman landed a lot more than 5 shots on Ali to the chin.

No he didn't. Aside from a straight right hand and a few uppercuts, most of his head shots were rabbit punches and shots to the top of the head. Foreman wasn't good at throwing uppercuts against tall boxers. Lewis excelled at uppercutting against all kinds of opponents, including shorter ones like Foreman.

[The Kurgan]

When Etienne was dropped he took the mouthpiece out and then put his head back down and pretended he was out. The fight meant nothing except that Etienne was terrified.

Are you a medical doctor who examined Etienne on that night? If not, claiming he took a dive when a punch had been landed is pure speculation.

Tyson wasn't as shot as he was against Williams, but if you say he wasn't at least way past his best is crazy.

I didn't say he wasn't past his best. I said he wasn't shot. There is a HUGE difference between being past your best and being shot. Ali against Foreman = past his best. Ali against Holmes = shot.

[The Kurgan]

I think George would take him....Gerge has a better chin and has been down and gotten back up,when Lewis went down he usually stayed there...And George was not knocked out by Ali he was beat into exhaustion...

Lewis stayed down in 50% of the fights he was knocked down in. How many times was Foreman down and out? Once in two fights, therefore 50%.

Had Lewis not been stopped prematurely against McCall, he'd have been stopped on no more occasions than Foreman. I'm not saying that Lewis had a better chin, but the gulf is by no means as vast as popular mythology would have one believe.

EDIT: I forgot Foreman was down against Young, but that's hardly a tribute to his chin.

[Doppleganger]

[quote=JohnThomas1]
I've not been here long, guess you could class me as a newbe. So I don't know who Stonehands is. However, I have come accross Manassa. He may be an ESB veteran but his theory of a rise in weight providing greater punch resistence is bollocks.
It's not totally ludicrous you know. Whilst you obviously can't increase bone density or train the muscle sheath that envelops the brain you can increase neck strength via stronger neck muscles and tendons, which would have the effect of helping to dissipate the energy of a punch more effectively. In short, increasing one's ability to absorb a powerful punch from one's opponent.

[Doppleganger]

I've not been here long, guess you could class me as a newbe. So I don't know who Stonehands is. However, I have come accross Manassa. He may be an ESB veteran but his theory of a rise in weight providing greater punch resistence is bollocks.
It's not totally ludicrous you know. Whilst you obviously can't increase bone density or train the muscle sheath that envelops the brain you can increase neck strength via stronger neck muscles and tendons, which would have the effect of helping to dissipate the energy of a punch more effectively. In short, increasing one's ability to absorb a powerful punch from one's opponent.

[ChrisPontius]

I've not been here long, guess you could class me as a newbe. So I don't know who Stonehands is. However, I have come accross Manassa. He may be an ESB veteran but his theory of a rise in weight providing greater punch resistence is bollocks. Just because Manassa subscibes to this ludicrous theory, this is not a good enough reason to jusify Chris Pontius's earlier post that Foreman's chin was initially weaker earlier in his career and that it improved over time. In my short time here I have observed that although Manassa is knowledgable he tends to suffer from sporadic bouts of verbal diarrhea.

So you think it's totally ridiculous to think that adding a lot more mass helps absorbing a shot?

I suggest you line up a soccer ball and a medicine ball. Kick both of them subsequently. You will find that the heavier body will move a lot less to the same amount of applied force.

[Sweet Science]

So you think it's totally ridiculous to think that adding a lot more mass helps absorbing a shot?

I suggest you line up a soccer ball and a medicine ball. Kick both of them subsequently. You will find that the heavier body will move a lot less to the same amount of applied force.

Inanimate objects like soccer balls and a medicine balls do not have much in common with a fighters head and your example cannot be used as a sensible comparison. Despite the weight of a fighters head or overall build, this does not affect the quality of his chin nor make any diffrence to how well he takes a shot. It is not about how much a fighters head moves when taking a shot, the fact is that all the power is still absorbed by the very same chin.

[Sweet Science]

It's not totally ludicrous you know. Whilst you obviously can't increase bone density or train the muscle sheath that envelops the brain you can increase neck strength via stronger neck muscles and tendons, which would have the effect of helping to dissipate the energy of a punch more effectively. In short, increasing one's ability to absorb a powerful punch from one's opponent.

I don't agree, if that was the case then Frank Bruno would have a pretty good chin as he had well developed strong neck muscles. They didn't help him much or increase his ability to absorb a powerful punch. IMO the quality of a fighter's chin can not be improved even one iota, a fighter is stuck with it for life. Needless to say when god was handing out chins, Frank Bruno was near the back end of the queue.

[janitor]

The first hard shot George lands ,Its over.

We have to get away from this kind of thinking.

Suspect chins cannot be depended upon to fail. For every punch that Lewis was knocked out by he shook off a hundred similar punches. He took some absolute bombs.

Power is impotent unless it is backed up by timing, delivery and technique.

If Foreman can hit Lewis with a shot he dose not see coming he will knock him out. Otherwise it will come down to whether he can outbox Lewis.

[mr. magoo]

I don't agree, if that was the case then Frank Bruno would have a pretty good chin as he had well developed strong neck muscles. They didn't help him much or increase his ability to absorb a powerful punch. IMO the quality of a fighter's chin can not be improved even one iota, a fighter is stuck with it for life. Needless to say when god was handing out chins, Frank Bruno was near the back end of the queue.

Strengthening various muscles such as the trapezious and other groups can indeed help to obsorb some of the shock caused by a blow to the head. I agree however, that it does not change the molecular structure of one's chin.

[janitor]

It's not totally ludicrous you know. Whilst you obviously can't increase bone density or train the muscle sheath that envelops the brain you can increase neck strength via stronger neck muscles and tendons, which would have the effect of helping to dissipate the energy of a punch more effectively. In short, increasing one's ability to absorb a powerful punch from one's opponent.

You can actualy increase the density and even thickness of bones by training.

If an archaeologist digs up a skeleton and wants to know if he was an archer he cuts through both his upper arms. If the skeleton belongs to a dead archer the master arm will have much denser bone.

A body builder can increase the thickness of his collar bone by up to 25% by training.

Having said that the one area where body building has always been practiced in boxing is with the neck muscles. Jim Corbett did the same neck exercises as Lennox Lewis.

[Doppleganger]

I don't agree, if that was the case then Frank Bruno would have a pretty good chin as he had well developed strong neck muscles. They didn't help him much or increase his ability to absorb a powerful punch. IMO the quality of a fighter's chin can not be improved even one iota, a fighter is stuck with it for life. Needless to say when god was handing out chins, Frank Bruno was near the back end of the queue. Well I don't actually agree that Frank Bruno's chin was as bad as you make out. His problem was that he had virtually no survival instincts so when hit with a big shot it put him into an upright stupor. Not a great chin but certainly far from the worst either. How many times was Bruno put on his arse? You can count the number of times on one hand.


The argument we're having is whether anything can be done to improve the ability to absorb a punch and the answer to that is yes. If you don't believe that then fair enough but you need to ask yourself what makes a good chin. If you asked me one definition is the ability to dissipate the energy of a punch to a greater degree than average and there are ways to make that process more effective.

[Doppleganger]

You can actualy increase the density and even thickness of bones by training.

If an archaeologist digs up a skeleton and wants to know if he was an archer he cuts through both his upper arms. If the skeleton belongs to a dead archer the master arm will have much denser bone.

A body builder can increase the thickness of his collar bone by up to 25% by training.

Having said that the one area where body building has always been practiced in boxing is with the neck muscles. Jim Corbett did the same neck exercises as Lennox Lewis.
Didn't know that Janitor. Interesting. :good

[ChrisPontius]

Inanimate objects like soccer balls and a medicine balls do not have much in common with a fighters head and your example cannot be used as a sensible comparison. Despite the weight of a fighters head or overall build, this does not affect the quality of his chin nor make any diffrence to how well he takes a shot. It is not about how much a fighters head moves when taking a shot, the fact is that all the power is still absorbed by the very same chin.

So how do you explain then that fighters nearly always have chin problems when moving up in weight, as little as 10 or 20 pounds. Problems which never occured at lower weights.

[Vanboxingfan]

Regarding the Ring's 50 mythical match ups which feature a mythical match up between Foreman and Lewis here is the REAL article.

Foreman's strengths:

One of the strongest-ever heavyweights, with the power to demolish contemporaries like Joe Frazier, Ken Norton, and Ron Lyle, and, years later, Gerry Cooney and Micheal Moorer (when he became the oldest champion ever), the heavy-handed Foreman was also a sound defensive boxer. He had one of the hardest jabs and chins in the business, as was frequently proven during his reincarnation. After a brief amateur career, Foreman was still a work-in-progress when outfoxed by Muhammad Ali.

Foreman's weaknesses:

He was never the complete article. First time around he tended to blow early. He left himself open by winging his punches to overwhelm smaller men, but struggled with clever boxers like Ali, Jimmy Young, and Greg Peralta and never faced anyone like Lewis - a skilled, big hitter who was two inches taller, 20 pounds heavier, and had a five-inch reach advantage. Once Foreman ran out of steam, his punch resistance diminished. Ali knocked him out, the feather-fisted Young dropped him and so did Lyle twice. By the time "Big George" returned, he'd remedied these flaws, but age and lack of mobility saw him out boxed by Holyfield, Morrison and Axel Schulz.

Lewis' strengths:

Lewis can do it all: jab and move (David Tua, Evander Holyfield). break opponents systematically (Tommy Morrison, Mike Tyson), demolish them quickly (Razor Ruddock, Andrew Golota, Michael Grant), or battle in the trenches (Ray Mercer). No one can outbox him or control the pace like Lewis does, and he takes very little punishment. He thrives on beating big men. Four years after stopped Bowe to win Olympic Gold, Lewis flattened Ruddock and inherited the WBC title. Eleven year on, he' still champion and has made 15 successful defenses over three reigns. He's beat more titleholders and leading contenders than anyone since Larry Holmes.

Lewis' weaknesses:

His chin makes him vulnerable, as illustrated by Oliver McCall and Hasim Rahman, neither of whom quite have Foreman's power. He touched down unofficially against Henry Akinwande and was shaken by Tony Tucker, Frank Bruno, and Shannon Briggs. He's occasionally cavalier and sometimes over-cautious. Now and then his energy level short-circuits. He can also be unsettled by unpredictable assaults. He struggled in his second fight with an aging Holyfield.

Style Matchup:

This pits the huge, clubbing hooks and uppercuts of the 6'3", 224-pound Foreman against the tighter jabs, and crosses of the 6'5", 245-pound Lewis. Foreman was an attacking fighter, most comfortable going forward. Lewis controls the action from a distance, although he is also dangerous up close with uppercuts.

Outcome:

Foreman rushes Lewis to the ropes, swinging heavy hooks, Lewis holds, but Foreman shakes him with an uppercut as the bell rings. After that Lewis boxes off the back foot while circling to his right, using his greater strength to hold Foreman whenever he gets close. Lewis' hand touches the canvas after he takes a right in the sixth, but Foreman is tiring. In the 10th Foreman swings, but Lewis beats him to it with a right cross followed by a left hook and a right uppercut. Foreman is up at eight, but Lewis ends the fight with a perfectly timed right hand.

[KTFO]

Foreman rushes Lewis to the ropes, swinging heavy hooks, Lewis holds, but Foreman shakes him with an uppercut as the bell rings. After that Lewis boxes off the back foot while circling to his right, using his greater strength to hold Foreman whenever he gets close. Lewis' hand touches the canvas after he takes a right in the sixth, but Foreman is tiring. In the 10th Foreman swings, but Lewis beats him to it with a right cross followed by a left hook and a right uppercut. Foreman is up at eight, but Lewis ends the fight with a perfectly timed right hand.



Interesting scenario. Maybe even 7th. :think

[achillesthegreat]

I can't believe Lewis would fight Foreman and not box him intelligently.

Lewis wins the trilogy 2-1.

[Sweet Science]

So how do you explain then that fighters nearly always have chin problems when moving up in weight, as little as 10 or 20 pounds. Problems which never occured at lower weights.
Easy, when a fighter moves up in weight he faces heavier fighters who have more weight behind their punches.

[fists of fury]

This is one of the closest polls I've seen on this board.

[fists of fury]

Regarding the issue of chin, I'm a little bit torn on the issue.

I don't think there is any evidence that a bigger neck helps in absorbing a shot. If this was so, Michael Moorer who had a 20' neck, would have been more resistant to a punch. Yet, he was definitely chinny.
Strengthening the neck muscles must surely help though, but again there is no concrete evidence of this and I'm basically just using logic in place of actual proof here.

Does adding bulk improve punch resistance? In Evander's case I'd have to say yes. I can't see a 190 lb. Evander absorbing a Bowe right hand well, but the 214 lb. version did.
Then again, if you look at the myriad of fighters who stepped up a division or two and found there chins suddenly wanting then there is sufficient evidence to say that simply getting bigger doesn't necessarily increase punch resistance.

I believe conditioning plays a big role in punch resistance, as well as other factors like how relaxed / stiff the fighter was when hit with the punch, if he saw it coming, the placement of the punch, the belief the fighter has in himself to take the punch, his ability to roll with the shot and a bunch of other factors.

[Drofrah]

Lewis i think would have enough technique to keep Foreman at range, which would be enough to take the win, late TKO

[The Kurgan]

It's amazing how Lewis's standing has gone up. Two years ago, Foreman would have won this poll by a wide margin. Lewis is finally getting the credit he deserves, just like Holmes did after he retired.

[KTFO]

Lewis is finally getting the credit he deserves



When didn't Lewis get the credit he deserves? This man is (certainly) above Ali. :good

[BITCH ASS]

You know, this post is so blatantly ignorant that it was a complete waste of time posting it. Sorry.

You're a pretentious fuck. That was a good post. Get off Lewis' dick.

[Vanboxingfan]

You're a pretentious fuck. That was a good post. Get off Lewis' dick.

It was not, to say Lewis would have had no change of getting past the 3rd round either means this poster completely hates Lewis or hasn't seem him fight. Take your pick. That post was anything but impartial. Nobody really cares who picks who but saying one fighter walks on water and the other sucks, doesn't provide any insight or value.

Look at the Ring's analysis, which I posted, if you want a decent breakdown of the skills of the two fighters. The outcome could be different, (ie Foreman could win), but the strengths and weaknesses of each fight are pretty much bang on, I think.

[prime]

If Ali couldn’t get away from Foreman, neither could Lewis box his way unscathed to the promised land of the middle rounds.

Lewis would not try to “take out” Foreman early. He held and held early on against an old Tyson. Lewis was CAUTION, TENTATIVENESS, against a talented threat. (The innocent Rahmans don’t count.)

Early on, Foreman would cut off the ring and get the upper hand, forcing Lewis to engage, strategy going out the window. I continue to see Foreman demolishing Lewis early.

Ali was exhausted after 8 rounds with Foreman. Does Lewis have the chin and heart to survive and come out on top after 8 excruciating rounds with a rampaging Foreman? I don’t see it from Lewis, who had his hands full with an old Holyfield.

Lewis backs up; Foreman comes forward. The result favors Forema

[ChrisPontius]

If Ali couldn’t get away from Foreman, neither could Lewis box his way unscathed to the promised land of the middle rounds.


Actually, Ali easily nailed Foreman with right hands in their first round and got out of the way again and again.

It was only untill Ali decided to lay on the ropes that he couldn't "get away" from Foreman.


Lewis would not try to “take out” Foreman early. He held and held early on against an old Tyson. Lewis was CAUTION, TENTATIVENESS, against a talented threat. (The innocent Rahmans don’t count.)


Lewis has a career of being extremely agressive against big men: Grant, Ruddock, V. Klitschko and Golota. Only Klitschko went past the second round because he has an iron chin.

While i would advice him to box Foreman like he did Tua and Tyson, there is a chance that he comes ou agressive.



Early on, Foreman would cut off the ring and get the upper hand, forcing Lewis to engage, strategy going out the window. I continue to see Foreman demolishing Lewis early.

Ali was exhausted after 8 rounds with Foreman. Does Lewis have the chin and heart to survive and come out on top after 8 excruciating rounds with a rampaging Foreman? I don’t see it from Lewis, who had his hands full with an old Holyfield.


And Foreman had his hands more than full with an old Ali. Lewis dominated Holyfield in their first fight and still beat him when he fought Holyfields fight in the second one, so what?

An equally good question is whether Foreman can take Lewis' punches? He was dropped twice by Lyle who is not the puncher Lewis is nor has the delivery, and was dropped by light hitting Young & Ali.

Foreman could not land consistently on defensively adept boxers (Ali, Young) while Lewis could (Holyfield I & II, Klitschko).

[Sweet Science]

If Ali couldn’t get away from Foreman, neither could Lewis box his way unscathed to the promised land of the middle rounds.

Lewis would not try to “take out” Foreman early. He held and held early on against an old Tyson. Lewis was CAUTION, TENTATIVENESS, against a talented threat. (The innocent Rahmans don’t count.)

Early on, Foreman would cut off the ring and get the upper hand, forcing Lewis to engage, strategy going out the window. I continue to see Foreman demolishing Lewis early.

Ali was exhausted after 8 rounds with Foreman. Does Lewis have the chin and heart to survive and come out on top after 8 excruciating rounds with a rampaging Foreman? I don’t see it from Lewis, who had his hands full with an old Holyfield.

Lewis backs up; Foreman comes forward. The result favors Forema

I agree, people are underestimating Foreman and the damage he would do to Lewis early on. Lewis wouldn't survive a rampaging Foreman.

[Sweet Science]

An equally good question is whether Foreman can take Lewis' punches? He was dropped twice by Lyle who is not the puncher Lewis is nor has the delivery, and was dropped by light hitting Young & Ali.


Lyle hit harder than Lewis.

Furthermore, a telling difference between Foreman and Lewis is that Foreman always got up after being knocked down.
The only exception being against Ali, and there is uncertainty about why he didnt get up. Foreman says he was looking to his corner for instructions and they were signaling for him to stay down, when he got up on their command the fight was over. I don't know if that is true, but the fact is Lewis was knocked down twice and both times didn't/couldn't get up. As he was busy counting sheep.

[ChrisPontius]

Lyle hit harder than Lewis.

Furthermore, a telling difference between Foreman and Lewis is that Foreman always got up after being knocked down.
The only exception being against Ali, and there is uncertainty about why he didnt get up. Foreman says he was looking to his corner for instructions and they were signaling for him to stay down, when he got up on their command the fight was over. I don't know if that is true, but the fact is Lewis was knocked down twice and both times didn't/couldn't get up. As he was busy counting sheep.

What is the evidence for Lyle hitting harder than Lewis?

It took him 6 rounds to dispose of Shavers, while most (semi-)punchers that landed on him early, took him out early... like Quarry.

How many one-punch knockouts over world class opposition does he have, compared to Lewis?
In fact, how many world class fighters did he knock out at all? I can't think of a single one, off the top of my head. Lewis knocked out Biggs, Weaver (one punch), Ruddock, Bruno, Morrison, Grant (one punch), Rahman (one punch), Briggs, Botha, Golota and Tyson (one punch).


As you pointed out, and Foreman did not always get up when down and was arguably saved by the bell against Lyle after the second knockdown. In the grant total of .................. two..... knockdowns that Lewis suffered in his entire career, he got up one time and was stopped prematurely and the other time he was knocked out indeed.

Foreman faced 5 punchers, Lewis faced 15. Foreman was down 4 times, Lewis was down twice. In other words, Foreman is 6 times more likely to get knocked down by a puncher than Lewis is.

[Sweet Science]

What is the evidence for Lyle hitting harder than Lewis?

It took him 6 rounds to dispose of Shavers, while most (semi-)punchers that landed on him early, took him out early... like Quarry.

How many one-punch knockouts over world class opposition does he have, compared to Lewis?
In fact, how many world class fighters did he knock out at all? I can't think of a single one, off the top of my head. Lewis knocked out Biggs, Weaver (one punch), Ruddock, Bruno, Morrison, Grant (one punch), Rahman (one punch), Briggs, Botha, Golota and Tyson (one punch).


As you pointed out, and Foreman did not always get up when down and was arguably saved by the bell against Lyle after the second knockdown. In the grant total of .................. two..... knockdowns that Lewis suffered in his entire career, he got up one time and was stopped prematurely and the other time he was knocked out indeed.

Foreman faced 5 punchers, Lewis faced 15. Foreman was down 4 times, Lewis was down twice. In other words, Foreman is 6 times more likely to get knocked down by a puncher than Lewis is.

Lewis was knocked out twice, Foreman was knocked out once. In other words Lewis is twice as likely to get knocked the fuck out by a puncher than Foreman is.

But hang on a sec, Foreman isn't just a puncher, he's the hardest hitting heavyweight ever. So I would say there is more than a 50% chance Foreman would knock Lewis out. Foreman might get knocked down during the fight but he'd get up and knock Lewis out.

[Luigi1985]

Lyle hit harder than Lewis.

Furthermore, a telling difference between Foreman and Lewis is that Foreman always got up after being knocked down.
The only exception being against Ali, and there is uncertainty about why he didnt get up. Foreman says he was looking to his corner for instructions and they were signaling for him to stay down, when he got up on their command the fight was over. I don't know if that is true, but the fact is Lewis was knocked down twice and both times didn't/couldn't get up. As he was busy counting sheep.


Your post shows how you overrate the Ali- era in general, if you really thinks that a fighter like Lyle hits harder than Lewis...

[Sweet Science]

Your post shows how you overrate the Ali- era in general, if you really thinks that a fighter like Lyle hits harder than Lewis...

The Ali era is widely regarded as the golden era of the Heavweight division. I am prepared to admit I may be wrong about Lyle hitting harder than Lewis, but I cannot rule out the power of Lyle. The man had a monster punch, I didn't say he was a good fighter or that he had any notable ability other than his power, but for one punch power I think he hit harder than Lewis.

If anyone here is guilty of overrating anyone it's you and your analysis of Marciano.

[Luigi1985]

The Ali era is widely regarded as the golden era of the Heavweight division. I am prepared to admit I may be wrong about Lyle hitting harder than Lewis, but I cannot rule out the power of Lyle. The man had a monster punch, I didn't say he was a good fighter of that he had any class, but for one punch power I think he hit harder than Lewis.

If anyone here is guilty of overrating anyone it's you and your analysis of Marciano.


I´m not overrating Marciano, but I defend his legacy, it´s sad to read how little kiddies today speak about him ("Tye Fields would KO that bum in one single round!", "He beat only shot,former LHW´s", "He was too small, he couldn´t beat a big and skilled fighter like Ali", etc.), and I do it with every other fighter when I feel he´s getting underrated. Your comment is totally false, the one-punch was Lewis strength as a puncher. Lyle was in general a better puncher than Lewis (because Lewis was also a great boxer), but one-punch-wise Lewis hit much harder than Lyle, look how many good fighters Lewis KO´d with one punch and now look at Lyle...

[Sweet Science]

I´m not overrating Marciano, but I defend his legacy, it´s sad to read how little kiddies today speak about him ("Tye Fields would KO that bum in one single round!", "He beat only shot,former LHW´s", "He was too small, he couldn´t beat a big and skilled fighter like Ali", etc.), and I do it with every other fighter when I feel he´s getting underrated. Your comment is totally false, the one-punch was Lewis strength as a puncher. Lyle was in general a better puncher than Lewis (because Lewis was also a great boxer), but one-punch-wise Lewis hit much harder than Lyle, look how many good fighters Lewis KO´d with one punch and now look at Lyle...

If power is a fighters only notable attribute then they are not going to win many fights against upper tier opposition. All Lyle had going for him was his tremendous one punch power but that was not enough. Lewis had great power and great overall skills too, thats why he knocked out a greater number of good fighters. I believe Lyle hit harder.

I take on board your comment about you wanting to defend the legacy of Marciano against "little kiddies" who talk shit. But with respect I am not one of those little kiddies. I just think you overrate Marciano, but then again you probably think I overrate Ali.

[Luigi1985]

If power is a fighters only notable attribute then they are not going to win many fights against upper tier opposition. All Lyle had going for him was his tremendous one punch power but that was not enough. Lewis had great power and great overall skills too, thats why he knocked out a greater number of good fighters. I believe Lyle hit harder.

I take on board your comment about you wanting to defend the legacy of Marciano against "little kiddies" who talk shit. But with respect I am not one of those little kiddies. I just think you overrate Marciano, but then again you probably think I overrate Ali.


I didn´t mean that you´re a kid, you´re a good and serious poster, and I never read shit from you like the example I came with (Fields-Marciano), I respect your opinion, but to be honest, I don´t overrate Marciano, and he´s not one of my favourite fighters, but I notice that he´s getting overrated, so I defend him correctly IMO, I don´t think you overrate Ali, I think you overrate the Ali- era in general, but that´s not the topic now...


my prediction for Lewis- Foreman:



Lewis is in the first few rounds a bit scary because of Foreman´s power, and that´s why he´s only slightly ahead on points, but than he hurts Foreman more and more with his shots and Foreman gets KO´d later... Lewis combination of skills, power and size would be too much for Foreman


Lewis TKO 11 Foreman

[Sweet Science]

I didn´t mean that you´re a kid, you´re a good and serious poster, and I never read shit from you like the example I came with (Fields-Marciano), I respect your opinion, but to be honest, I don´t overrate Marciano, and he´s not one of my favourite fighters, but I notice that he´s getting overrated, so I defend him correctly IMO, I don´t think you overrate Ali, I think you overrate the Ali- era in general, but that´s not the topic now...


my prediction for Lewis- Foreman:



Lewis is in the first few rounds a bit scary because of Foreman´s power, and that´s why he´s only slightly ahead on points, but than he hurts Foreman more and more with his shots and Foreman gets KO´d later... Lewis combination of skills, power and size would be too much for Foreman


Lewis TKO 11 Foreman

Thats fair enough Luigi, I respect your opinion too.

Just out of interest (I know its of topic) but where does Marciano rank in your top 10 Heavyweights ever?

[Luigi1985]

Thats fair enough Luigi, I respect your opinion too.

Just out of interest (I know its of topic) but where does Marciano rank in your top 10 Heavyweights ever?



In my ATG´s- lists, I make it with ca. 70 % legacy, and 30 % head-to-head( and I rate Marciano high, because he had good HOF´s- opponents, and fought always the nr. 1-challenger, was unbeaten, needed never the help of the judges, etc.), here´s my Top 15 now:



1: Joe Louis
2: Muhammad Ali
3: Rocky Marciano
4: James J. Jeffries
5: Joe Frazier
6: George Foreman
7: Jack Dempsey
8: Jack Johnson
9: Harry Wills
10: Lennox Lewis
11: Larry Holmes
12: Evander Holyfield
13: Sonny Liston
14: Ezzard Charles
15: Mike Tyson

[Sweet Science]

In my ATG´s- lists, I make it with ca. 70 % legacy, and 30 % head-to-head( and I rate Marciano high, because he had good HOF´s- opponents, and fought always the nr. 1-challenger, was unbeaten, needed never the help of the judges, etc.), here´s my Top 15 now:



1: Joe Louis
2: Muhammad Ali
3: Rocky Marciano
4: James J. Jeffries
5: Joe Frazier
6: George Foreman
7: Jack Dempsey
8: Jack Johnson
9: Harry Wills
10: Lennox Lewis
11: Larry Holmes
12: Evander Holyfield
13: Sonny Liston
14: Ezzard Charles
15: Mike Tyson

Thanks for that Luigi, much appreciated. A fine list.

[Luigi1985]

Thanks for that Luigi, much appreciated. A fine list.


Thank you very much! I hope I forgot nobody in my list... :D

[Robbi]

Lewis was knocked down twice and both times didn't/couldn't get up. As he was busy counting sheep.

Wrong. Lewis did get up, against McCall. He had both gloves tucked into his chin ready to go, although he was extremely shaken at the time the referee waved the fight off.

Many other referees would have given Lewis the benefit of the doubt as champion and let him continue.

I will freely admit, If Lewis was allowed to go on I'm pretty sure he would have been stopped on his feet by a McCall bombardment, or maybe even knocked down again.

[ChrisPontius]

Lewis was knocked out twice, Foreman was knocked out once. In other words Lewis is twice as likely to get knocked the fuck out by a puncher than Foreman is.

But hang on a sec, Foreman isn't just a puncher, he's the hardest hitting heavyweight ever. So I would say there is more than a 50% chance Foreman would knock Lewis out. Foreman might get knocked down during the fight but he'd get up and knock Lewis out.

That means you admit Lewis hits harder than Lyle?

[Sweet Science]

That means you admit Lewis hits harder than Lyle?

No I think Lyle hits harder but I wouldn't put my house on it.

[Robbi]

Lewis' power is underrated. Just look at his showings against Ruddock, Morrison, Briggs, Golota, Grant, Botha, Rahman, and Tyson.

He maybe never quite had the power of Foreman and Tyson, but he wasn't far behind them in the power department.

[Doppleganger]

He maybe never quite had the power of Foreman and Tyson, but he wasn't far behind them in the power department.
I'm pretty certain that punch for punch Lewis hit harder than Tyson. As for Foreman Lewis was a different type of puncher than George. Going back to the clean versus dirty power Lewis was closer to 'clean' whilst Foreman's power was 'dirtier'. I am sure that Lewis was a more 'correct' puncher than Foreman because they were delivered in a straight line whilst Foreman's were generally wide and looping.

[prime]

Actually, Ali easily nailed Foreman with right hands in their first round and got out of the way again and again.

It was only untill Ali decided to lay on the ropes that he couldn't "get away" from Foreman.

Lewis has a career of being extremely agressive against big men: Grant, Ruddock, V. Klitschko and Golota. Only Klitschko went past the second round because he has an iron chin.

While i would advice him to box Foreman like he did Tua and Tyson, there is a chance that he comes ou agressive.

And Foreman had his hands more than full with an old Ali. Lewis dominated Holyfield in their first fight and still beat him when he fought Holyfields fight in the second one, so what?

An equally good question is whether Foreman can take Lewis' punches? He was dropped twice by Lyle who is not the puncher Lewis is nor has the delivery, and was dropped by light hitting Young & Ali.

Foreman could not land consistently on defensively adept boxers (Ali, Young) while Lewis could (Holyfield I & II, Klitschko).

Ali moved in Round 1, but realized it would tire him out as Foreman cut the ring off too well.

The big men you mention are no Foreman, but comparatively mediocre competition (Golota, Grant) and a little-pieces version of Ruddock.

Ali connected with his right crosses in Round 1, but I actually gave this round to Foreman, as he landed more and harder blows to the body. Should Lewis decide to come out swinging, he'd be knocked out quickly. He cannot win a slugfest with Foreman. And retreat also makes him vulnerable.

I hope you're not equating Ali in Zaire to Holy in his fights with Lewis.

I think we agree Lewis would try to box. Again, Lewis' peck-peck chess cannot keep Foreman's bombs off him. Such a big man as he would be a huge target to hit and he could not slip and slide a la, say, Young. Speaking of Young, let us remember that that Foreman was no longer at his devastating best, but a measured, aura-shattered version. Ditto for the Lyle affair.

This is an intriguing matchup between two great giants. I like Foreman.

[Vanboxingfan]

Lyle hit harder than Lewis.

Furthermore, a telling difference between Foreman and Lewis is that Foreman always got up after being knocked down.
The only exception being against Ali, and there is uncertainty about why he didnt get up. Foreman says he was looking to his corner for instructions and they were signaling for him to stay down, when he got up on their command the fight was over. I don't know if that is true, but the fact is Lewis was knocked down twice and both times didn't/couldn't get up. As he was busy counting sheep.

Have you actually read Foreman's bio. He had a chapter on why he lost that fight with Ali. And truthfully I like Foreman a lot in fact, I'm in the minority in saying that I think Foreman would have won a rematch had him and Ali fought a second time. But regarding Lewis I don't think it's fair or anywhere close to indepth just to look at Lewis' two losses and project an outcome from it. The Ring magazine's summary is a thousand times better than that rudimentary drivel.

[Vanboxingfan]

Ali was exhausted after 8 rounds with Foreman. Does Lewis have the chin and heart to survive and come out on top after 8 excruciating rounds with a rampaging Foreman? I don’t see it from Lewis, who had his hands full with old Holyfield

Well who knows, he didn't have his hands full with Ruddock, Golota, Grant, Briggs, Morrison, etc now did he?

[Vanboxingfan]

I'm pretty certain that punch for punch Lewis hit harder than Tyson. As for Foreman Lewis was a different type of puncher than George. Going back to the clean versus dirty power Lewis was closer to 'clean' whilst Foreman's power was 'dirtier'. I am sure that Lewis was a more 'correct' puncher than Foreman because they were delivered in a straight line whilst Foreman's were generally wide and looping.

This whole posts mirror my thoughts on these three fighters as well. Tyson's power (damage) came from speed and combinations. Foreman winged his punches but they had enormous power. Lewis is in the middle, more power than Tyson a little less power than Foreman, but more effective and delivered faster.

[fists of fury]

The whole issue of who hit harder is stupid. Really guys, you have got two big bangers in there, does it matter really who hit harder?
Rather, look at who had the better chin.

I still pick Lewis, but if he comes out swinging, he's meat.

[JohnThomas1]

Lyle hit harder than Lewis.


:lol:

[prime]

Well who knows, he didn't have his hands full with Ruddock, Golota, Grant, Briggs, Morrison, etc now did he?
:patsch Do you really think this lineup of pretenders is on par with even old Holy? The leftovers of Ruddock after two wars with Tyson? Golota, who never won the big fight? Innocent, chandelier Grant? Chinny Tommy Gunn? No, Lewis didn't have his hands full. But he was knocked out twice by two other similar mediocrities.

[Vanboxingfan]

Whatever. You're comments are both biased and pointless.

[mr. magoo]

Lennox Lewis lost by knockouts in his prime to Oliver McCall and Hasim Rahman (the same Rahman who was kayoed twice by the mediocre Oleg Maskaev - by the way). George Foreman was knocked out only by Muhammad Ali in his prime. Ali is probably the best HW ever. Ali had intestinal fortitude and durability that dwarfs that of modern heavys like Lennox Lewis and Wladimir Klitschko. These modern guys have the muscles and the great size but lack that rawboned reliability and toughness of men like Ali, Foreman, Marciano, Dempsey, etc. Foreman would run through Lennox Lewis in his prime. Heck, the older, heavier Foreman might have kayoed Lewis too if he had gotten the chance to fight him.

I agree that Foreman would have a good chance, except I have to call you on one small detail. Lennox Lewis was not in his prime when lost to Rahman. He was nearly 36 years old, and still managed to take Rahman in the rematch, which says something about his mental toughness, the same kind you credit Ali and co for having.

Sorry to nit pick.

[mr. magoo]

Great points magoo. I would never dare disagree with you. You, Dudenum and Mendoza are the smartest, most astute experts on here. That was not nitpicking at all. Lewis did wipe out Rahman in the rematch when he was more focused. I still think Ali was mentally and physically tougher than Lewis. And look tragically where it got him now.

Thanks for the kind words.

Ali was indeed one of a kind, and sadly, we'll never see another one like him again.

[prime]

Whatever. You're comments are both biased and pointless.

An unmerited attitude of condescension. Good riddance.

[Irish Steel]

Lewis would get destroyed I think. Because his style can be compared to Ali's, I know not exactly bet comparable. But ALi could take all of thatpunishment, and also had enough power to finish off george. Lewis had neither. HE had an OK chin and OK power. George KO3, if lewis is lucky KO 4

[mr. magoo]

I've also learned a great deal from reading Janitor's posts so I have to put him in there with you guys as the foremost experts on this site.

Janitor has a lot of knowledge on a fair amount of areas in the sport. I don't always agree with some of his philosophies but for the most part, he's usually right on target with most of his posts.

[Doppleganger]

Lewis would get destroyed I think. Because his style can be compared to Ali's, I know not exactly bet comparable. But ALi could take all of thatpunishment, and also had enough power to finish off george. Lewis had neither. HE had an OK chin and OK power. George KO3, if lewis is lucky KO 4
Saying Lewis had OK power is a little harsh no? Also, do you really believe that Ali had more power than Lewis? I think even the most blatant Lewis haters wouldn't even say that.

[TIGEREDGE]

LEWIS HAS GOT TO TASTE FOREMANS POWER SOMETIME IN THE FIGHT. I see foreman with a late KO

[Sweet Science]

Have you actually read Foreman's bio. He had a chapter on why he lost that fight with Ali. And truthfully I like Foreman a lot in fact, I'm in the minority in saying that I think Foreman would have won a rematch had him and Ali fought a second time. But regarding Lewis I don't think it's fair or anywhere close to indepth just to look at Lewis' two losses and project an outcome from it. The Ring magazine's summary is a thousand times better than that rudimentary drivel.

If you had bothered to look at my post properly you would have seen I was replying to Chris Pontius's equally unfair emphasis on Foreman's knockdowns, he wrote: Foreman faced 5 punchers, Lewis faced 15. Foreman was down 4 times, Lewis was down twice. In other words, Foreman is 6 times more likely to get knocked down by a puncher than Lewis is. I fight fire with fire. Next time read the drivel I am replying to so you can fully grasp the context of my reply, otherwise you run the risk of coming accross as a bit of an ill informed cock.

[The Kurgan]

LEWIS HAS GOT TO TASTE FOREMANS POWER SOMETIME IN THE FIGHT. I see foreman with a late KO

Well, since Lewis has tasted the shots of Tyson, Tua, Grant, Vitali, Mercer, Bruno, Briggs and Mason (which he HAD to taste ;) ) then I don't think he HAS to go down against Foreman. And IF he somehow denied the law of physics which says that he HAD to taste the power of his opponents, and did so against numerous sluggers, he doesn't have to be able to take Foreman's power.

So, either Lewis has the chin to take some of the hardest shots ever thrown, or the ability to not get hit by them. I'm not saying Foreman couldn't KO Lewis, but it's not assured that he'd either get the opportunity or be able to capitalise if he did.

Plus I don't think Foreman is going to be around long, considering his pathetic defense and Lewis's power. I'd venture to say Lewis would be Foreman's hardest hitting opponent by a fair margin.

[JohnThomas1]

Well, since Lewis has tasted the shots of Tyson, Tua, Grant, Vitali, Mercer, Bruno, Briggs and Mason (which he HAD to taste ;) ) then I don't think he HAS to go down against Foreman. And IF he somehow denied the law of physics which says that he HAD to taste the power of his opponents, and did so against numerous sluggers, he doesn't have to be able to take Foreman's power.

So, either Lewis has the chin to take some of the hardest shots ever thrown, or the ability to not get hit by them. I'm not saying Foreman couldn't KO Lewis, but it's not assured that he'd either get the opportunity or be able to capitalise if he did.

Plus I don't think Foreman is going to be around long, considering his pathetic defense and Lewis's power. I'd venture to say Lewis would be Foreman's hardest hitting opponent by a fair margin.
A masterful post that simply isn't going to be rebutted with any authority or solid ground.

[Doppleganger]

A masterful post that simply isn't going to be rebutted with any authority or solid ground. Yeah but according to Irish Steel Lewis has only 'OK power'. I mean, didn't Lewis fail to KO Holyfield? He couldn't even knock out that Croatian with the silly haircut.

Lewis didn't have the power that Ali had so I think Lewis is in for a long night. :roll::D

[JohnThomas1]

Yeah but according to Irish Steel Lewis has only 'OK power'. I mean, didn't Lewis fail to KO Holyfield? He couldn't even knock out that Croatian with the silly haircut.

Lewis didn't have the power that Ali had so I think Lewis is in for a long night. :roll::D

Sounds like it should be Irish Putty

:hey

[KTFO]

Lewis didn't have the power that Ali had



:patsch

[Doppleganger]

:patsch
In case you are not clear I was being sarcastic in my last post. :yep

[The Kurgan]

When didn't Lewis get the credit he deserves? This man is (certainly) above Ali. :good

It wasn't until about two years ago that the majority of the forum began to recognise him as a top 10 ATG.

[Napoleon]

I would pick Foreman to knock Lewis out. Look what Foreman did to Frazier and Frazier had a great chin, something Lewis didn't.

I can't believe so many people here picked Lewis.

[The Kurgan]

I would pick Foreman to knock Lewis out. Look what Foreman did to Frazier and Frazier had a great chin, something Lewis didn't.

I can't believe so many people here picked Lewis.

I think popular opinion is that Lewis is a very different fighter from Frazier.

[Vanboxingfan]

I think popular opinion is that Lewis is a very different fighter from Frazier.

Very diplomatic. :yep

[apollack]

Very bad matchup for Geroge because Lewis was fast, could hit hard, had height and reach, and most importantly, could box, use footwork and grab when need be. Too versatile for George. But of course, GF was a mountain of strength and had a better chin, so you never know what would happen if he simply imposed himself on Lennox and landed one of those massive and heavy shots of his.

[Napoleon]

I think popular opinion is that Lewis is a very different fighter from Frazier.

I didn't mean that they're the same or fight the same. I just ment that Foreman made Frazier go down and Frazier had a great chin.

I think Foreman would not have any trouble knocking Lewis out in 3 rounds or less.

[Doppleganger]

I didn't mean that they're the same or fight the same. I just ment that Foreman made Frazier go down and Frazier had a great chin.

I think Foreman would not have any trouble knocking Lewis out in 3 rounds or less. It's a very simplistic way of looking at things to determine that if Fighter A knocked out Fighter B he should then be able to knock out Fighter C who was perceived to have a weaker chin. George Foreman, for all his vaunted power, wasn't able to stop Axel Schulz but Wladimir Klitschko and someone called Brian Minto both did. We know that Wlad is a great offensive puncher but is he then automatically a harder puncher than Foreman because he was able to stop Schulz? Of course not. He might be but we cannot be certain simply because he was able to stop a fighter that Big George did not. I'm pretty sure Brian Minto does not punch harder than Foreman but he also stopped Schulz.

Frank Bruno wobbled Mike Tyson with a single left hook in round 1 of their first fight but he did not wobble Lennox Lewis. Does that mean that Lewis has a better chin than Tyson? Do you see my point? Forget what happened in Foreman vs Frazier because it almost certainly would not be repeated in any mythical match-up between Foreman and Lewis. Lewis never got knocked out in any fight where he feared or respected his opponent. I honestly don't see Foreman stopping Lewis at all. As I've said before I think it's more likely that Lewis is stopped by a big hitting contender ala Cleveland Williams or Earnie Shavers because he'd be more likely to come into those fights unfocused and sloppy.

[The Kurgan]

It's a very simplistic way of looking at things to determine that if Fighter A knocked out Fighter B he should then be able to knock out Fighter C who was perceived to have a weaker chin. George Foreman, for all his vaunted power, wasn't able to stop Axel Schulz but Wladimir Klitschko and someone called Brian Minto both did. We know that Wlad is a great offensive puncher but is he then automatically a harder puncher than Foreman because he was able to stop Schulz? Of course not. He might be but we cannot be certain simply because he was able to stop a fighter that Big George did not. I'm pretty sure Brian Minto does not punch harder than Foreman but he also stopped Schulz.

Frank Bruno wobbled Mike Tyson with a single left hook in round 1 of their first fight but he did not wobble Lennox Lewis. Does that mean that Lewis has a better chin than Tyson? Do you see my point? Forget what happened in Foreman vs Frazier because it almost certainly would not be repeated in any mythical match-up between Foreman and Lewis. Lewis never got knocked out in any fight where he feared or respected his opponent. I honestly don't see Foreman stopping Lewis at all. As I've said before I think it's more likely that Lewis is stopped by a big hitting contender ala Cleveland Williams or Earnie Shavers because he'd be more likely to come into those fights unfocused and sloppy.

Perfectly said.

[nick wells jr]

ref stops the fight in the 6th due to foreman beating on lewis' arms so much that lewis cant lift to protect or throw any punches with jalopeno juice in them.foreman tko6

[KTFO]

It wasn't until about two years ago that the majority of the forum began to recognise him as a top 10 ATG.



:patsch

[JIm Broughton]

This is definitely one of the toughest fights to call so far in this forum but I'll wing it anyway. By a slight margin I'll go with Lewis against the 70's Foreman. That George did'nt know how to properly pace himself and was only concerned about KOing his opponent. This would be the wrong strategy against Lewis. It might work if he caught Lewis napping but Lennox would be very aware of George's power and on guard. If you could combine the youth and physicality of the 70's Foreman with the patience and pacing of the 90's Foreman, then George takes it. He has the chin to take whatever Lennox dishes out and his jab would disconcert Lewis and possibly set him up for something a lot heavier. Look at what Cooney hit George with. Those were bombs. But by staying patient while constantly moving forward and landing some heavy shots, Cooney beagan to unravel. He ran out of room and seemed to panic when his power shots did'nt stop George. Now Lewis is quite a few notches up from Cooney no question but I think it's possible that George could do the same to Lennox IF he fights a patient fight and does'nt swing for the fences from the get-go and exhausts himself like he often did when he was young. If he does then Lennox wins. If he does'nt then I think Big George takes it. Sound reasonable to anyone out there?

[dav8d777]

This is definitely one of the toughest fights to call so far in this forum but I'll wing it anyway. By a slight margin I'll go with Lewis against the 70's Foreman. That George did'nt know how to properly pace himself and was only concerned about KOing his opponent. This would be the wrong strategy against Lewis. It might work if he caught Lewis napping but Lennox would be very aware of George's power and on guard. If you could combine the youth and physicality of the 70's Foreman with the patience and pacing of the 90's Foreman, then George takes it. He has the chin to take whatever Lennox dishes out and his jab would disconcert Lewis and possibly set him up for something a lot heavier. Look at what Cooney hit George with. Those were bombs. But by staying patient while constantly moving forward and landing some heavy shots, Cooney beagan to unravel. He ran out of room and seemed to panic when his power shots did'nt stop George. Now Lewis is quite a few notches up from Cooney no question but I think it's possible that George could do the same to Lennox IF he fights a patient fight and does'nt swing for the fences from the get-go and exhausts himself like he often did when he was young. If he does then Lennox wins. If he does'nt then I think Big George takes it. Sound reasonable to anyone out there?

On the other hand McCall cast doubt on Lewis' ability to take a punch. I don't really think Lewis had the legs to stay back on Foreman and jab.

[anut]

WELL TYHERES NO WAY LENNOX IS GONNA KNOCK FOREMAN OUT....NO WAY.......BEST CHIN IN HEAVYWEIGHT HISTORY.....LENNOX PEAKED AROUND WHEN HE FOUGHT TUA.....LET ME TELL U FOREMAN OF 73 OR 74 WOULD HAVE KNOCKED TUA OUT.....ANYWAY BACK TO LEWIS/FOREMAN.....FOREMANS JAB WOULD REALLY BOTHER LEWIS.......THIS WOULD BE THE HARDEST LEWIS WOULD EVER GET HIT......I THINK FOREMAN KNOCKS LEWIS OUT.MENTALLY STRONGER THAN LEWIS ALSO....FOREMAN WAS A THUG BACK THEN.:smoke:smoke:smoke:smoke:smoke:smoke:smoke:smoke:smoke

[anut]

i have a fight of foreman against boone kirkman.....foreman hit him so hard that boone kirkman lifted off the canvass....boone kirkman was 250 lbs...im not sayin he was great....but he was big.....and foreman lifted him off the canvass.

[Vanboxingfan]

WELL TYHERES NO WAY LENNOX IS GONNA KNOCK FOREMAN OUT....NO WAY.......BEST CHIN IN HEAVYWEIGHT HISTORY.....LENNOX PEAKED AROUND WHEN HE FOUGHT TUA.....LET ME TELL U FOREMAN OF 73 OR 74 WOULD HAVE KNOCKED TUA OUT.....ANYWAY BACK TO LEWIS/FOREMAN.....FOREMANS JAB WOULD REALLY BOTHER LEWIS.......THIS WOULD BE THE HARDEST LEWIS WOULD EVER GET HIT......I THINK FOREMAN KNOCKS LEWIS OUT.MENTALLY STRONGER THAN LEWIS ALSO....FOREMAN WAS A THUG BACK THEN.:smoke:smoke:smoke:smoke:smoke:smoke:smoke:smoke:smoke

Greatest chin, where the hell does that comment come from. Hell he was down as many times in the Lyle fight as Lewis was in his entire career, and he's been down more times in his career than Lewis. I'm not saying his chin isn't better than Lewis' it probably is, but he doesn't have close to the best chin in history.

[OLD FOGEY]

i have a fight of foreman against boone kirkman.....foreman hit him so hard that boone kirkman lifted off the canvass....boone kirkman was 250 lbs...im not sayin he was great....but he was big.....and foreman lifted him off the canvass.

Kirkman was fairly big, but his weight was 203 lbs for Foreman.

[anut]

Kirkman was fairly big, but his weight was 203 lbs for Foreman.

SORRY I MEANT JACK O HALLORAN......HE WAS 235 LBS AND THAT WAS BIG FOR 1970...........lets just say zelko mavorich would never go 12 rds with foreman of 73/74:smoke:smoke:smoke:smoke:smoke

[anut]

Greatest chin, where the hell does that comment come from. Hell he was down as many times in the Lyle fight as Lewis was in his entire career, and he's been down more times in his career than Lewis. I'm not saying his chin isn't better than Lewis' it probably is, but he doesn't have close to the best chin in history.
LYLE WAS A POWER PUNCHER..........FOREMAN GOES DOWN BUT GETS BACK UP.....WHEN DID U EVER SEE LEWIS GO DOWN......GET UP DIG DOWN DEEP AND KO HIS OPPONENT.....NEVER HAPPENED....

[anut]

he definetly has the best chin in heavyweight history.:smoke:smoke:smoke

[Vanboxingfan]

LYLE WAS A POWER PUNCHER..........FOREMAN GOES DOWN BUT GETS BACK UP.....WHEN DID U EVER SEE LEWIS GO DOWN......GET UP DIG DOWN DEEP AND KO HIS OPPONENT.....NEVER HAPPENED....

Now we're talking about getting back up, seems to me the less you go down, the less times you have to get back up. Also seems to me that Foreman didn't get up against Ali. So it a great chin defined as someone who goes down 4 times and gets up 3 or is a great chin someone like Chavulo who just doesn't go down. I'm a huge Foreman fan but you're way over rating his chin. If Lewis' chin is a 6.5-7.0, Forman's is a 7.5-8.0 certainly better than Lewis' but I'd rate Ali's, Holyfield's, McCall's, Chuvalo's, as better. Upper eshlon's? yes, best ever? nope. As I re-read I keep wondering why did I even bother replying..too many kids on this site.

[ChrisPontius]

LYLE WAS A POWER PUNCHER..........FOREMAN GOES DOWN BUT GETS BACK UP.....WHEN DID U EVER SEE LEWIS GO DOWN......GET UP DIG DOWN DEEP AND KO HIS OPPONENT.....NEVER HAPPENED....

Other than flooring Foreman, Lyle didn't do much to prove he was a power puncher. Went the distance (losing) with Quarry, went the distance with Ellis (former middleweight), went the distance with Bonevena, went the distance with Young (losing), went the distance with Joe Bugner. The only fighter that was good who he knocked out was Shavers, and needless to say, Shavers had a glass jaw; guys like Bob Stallings (who also went the distance with Lyle, by the way) , Mercado and Cobb also did it.
Lightheavyweight Peralta went the distance with him twice and even held him to a draw.

His punching power is highly overrated to lift Ali's and Foreman's historical standing, but realistically, he only scored a knockout against in one fight against 6 or 7 good fighters. If he floors Foreman twice (and Foreman argubly saved by the bell), then Lewis, who is in a different world when it comes to power punching, will surely be able to put Foreman away.


By the way - i never saw Lewis getting hurt and dropped by one of the most light hitting fighters of the past decade (Young) either. You can say he was tired and all that, but do you think Foreman will somehow be impervious to getting tired against Lewis who is a lot bigger and therefore more tiring to fight than Young?

[mr. magoo]

Other than flooring Foreman, Lyle didn't do much to prove he was a power puncher. Went the distance (losing) with Quarry, went the distance with Ellis (former middleweight), went the distance with Bonevena, went the distance with Young (losing), went the distance with Joe Bugner. The only fighter that was good who he knocked out was Shavers, and needless to say, Shavers had a glass jaw; guys like Bob Stallings (who also went the distance with Lyle, by the way) , Mercado and Cobb also did it.
Lightheavyweight Peralta went the distance with him twice and even held him to a draw.

His punching power is highly overrated to lift Ali's and Foreman's historical standing, but realistically, he only scored a knockout against in one fight against 6 or 7 good fighters. If he floors Foreman twice (and Foreman argubly saved by the bell), then Lewis, who is in a different world when it comes to power punching, will surely be able to put Foreman away.


By the way - i never saw Lewis getting hurt and dropped by one of the most light hitting fighters of the past decade (Young) either. You can say he was tired and all that, but do you think Foreman will somehow be impervious to getting tired against Lewis who is a lot bigger and therefore more tiring to fight than Young?

With all due respect Chris, I think that you sometimes have the tendency to over simplify things a bit, and take them for pure face value, rather than looking at things a bit more subjectively. That said, I agree with most of what you said, and would also favor Lewis in a head to head matchup against Foreman.

[anut]

Now we're talking about getting back up, seems to me the less you go down, the less times you have to get back up. Also seems to me that Foreman didn't get up against Ali. So it a great chin defined as someone who goes down 4 times and gets up 3 or is a great chin someone like Chavulo who just doesn't go down. I'm a huge Foreman fan but you're way over rating his chin. If Lewis' chin is a 6.5-7.0, Forman's is a 7.5-8.0 certainly better than Lewis' but I'd rate Ali's, Holyfield's, McCall's, Chuvalo's, as better. Upper eshlon's? yes, best ever? nope. As I re-read I keep wondering why did I even bother replying..too many kids on this site.

FOTEMANS CHIN WAS DEFINETLY BETTER THAN 7.5......ON HIS COMEBACK NOBODY COULS PUT HIM DOWN...ALEX STEWART/TOMMY MORRISON/HOLYFIELD/COETZER/COONEY/BRIGGS/..........ALL THOSE GUYS HIT HARD.....BUT I AGREE CHUVALOS CHIN IS BETTER THAN GEORGES.....AS FOR MCCALL GREAT CHIN BUT HE DIDNT FACE THE GUYS FOREMAN FACED.

[ChrisPontius]

With all due respect Chris, I think that you sometimes have the tendency to over simplify things a bit, and take them for pure face value, rather than looking at things a bit more subjectively. That said, I agree with most of what you said, and would also favor Lewis in a head to head matchup against Foreman.

Probably i do. :D

[Vanboxingfan]

FOTEMANS CHIN WAS DEFINETLY BETTER THAN 7.5......ON HIS COMEBACK NOBODY COULS PUT HIM DOWN...ALEX STEWART/TOMMY MORRISON/HOLYFIELD/COETZER/COONEY/BRIGGS/..........ALL THOSE GUYS HIT HARD.....BUT I AGREE CHUVALOS CHIN IS BETTER THAN GEORGES.....AS FOR MCCALL GREAT CHIN BUT HE DIDNT FACE THE GUYS FOREMAN FACED.

Well most people Know that Foreman's comeback was well thought out in terms of comp. I watched the Foreman - Stewart fight a couple of years ago and I was shocked how Foreman controlled the first part of the fight then allowed Steward to get back into it and almost win. So Stewart never should have been in the mix to begin with. As far as Morrison, Holyfield, and Briggs goes if you want to use them as a demonstration of Foreman having a great chin than fine, but the same also applies to Lewis. :bbb

[Lostmykeys]

Other than flooring Foreman, Lyle didn't do much to prove he was a power puncher. Went the distance (losing) with Quarry, went the distance with Ellis (former middleweight), went the distance with Bonevena, went the distance with Young (losing), went the distance with Joe Bugner. The only fighter that was good who he knocked out was Shavers, and needless to say, Shavers had a glass jaw; guys like Bob Stallings (who also went the distance with Lyle, by the way) , Mercado and Cobb also did it.
Lightheavyweight Peralta went the distance with him twice and even held him to a draw.

His punching power is highly overrated to lift Ali's and Foreman's historical standing, but realistically, he only scored a knockout against in one fight against 6 or 7 good fighters. If he floors Foreman twice (and Foreman argubly saved by the bell), then Lewis, who is in a different world when it comes to power punching, will surely be able to put Foreman away.


By the way - i never saw Lewis getting hurt and dropped by one of the most light hitting fighters of the past decade (Young) either. You can say he was tired and all that, but do you think Foreman will somehow be impervious to getting tired against Lewis who is a lot bigger and therefore more tiring to fight than Young?

By the same arguement Foreman hits harder than both McCall and Rahman.

[mr. magoo]

By the same arguement Foreman hits harder than both McCall and Rahman.

Agreed,

Although I'd pick Lewis to beat Foreman, it's for other reasons mainly style related that I'd make this choice.

We can't say on one hand, that Lewis would destroy Foreman on the basis that he was shaken up by Ali and young, when at the same time, Lewis was knocked out by Mccall and Rahman, and rocked by Bruno and Mercer. It's kind of a double standard. We also have to consider that in 81 pro fights, Foreman was stopped but once, against a concensus all time great champion. In only 44 pro fights, Lewis was stopped twice, and by men who were hardly viewed as historically great fighters.

That being said, I would still pick Lewis to beat Foreman at any stage of his career, but I don't nor ever will, use the Young or Ali fights as measurable data to make my selection.

[cuchulain]

They are three and four on my alltime top ten list.

I haven't decided which is three and which is four.

[ChrisPontius]

By the same arguement Foreman hits harder than both McCall and Rahman.
And he does, which is why he has a chance.


We also have to consider that in 81 pro fights, Foreman was stopped but once, against a concensus all time great champion. In only 44 pro fights, Lewis was stopped twice, and by men who were hardly viewed as historically great fighters.

Those numbers don't mean much.

Out of those 81 pro fights, about 70 were against completely overmatched tomato cans, including guys with 0-14 records the year before he won the title.
On the other hand, of Lewis' 44 pro fights, about 20 of them were world class opposition.


By your reasoning, Butterbean would have to be considered very good too, because he was only stopped once in 90 or so fights.


And while Ali was an all time great, he was hardly an all time great puncher. Overmatched guys like Rudi Lubbers also went the distance with him.

[fists of fury]

I see old George is gaining ground...

[mr. magoo]

And he does, which is why he has a chance.



[quote]
Those numbers don't mean much.

Out of those 81 pro fights, about 70 were against completely overmatched tomato cans, including guys with 0-14 records the year before he won the title.


Actually, a lot of them weren't tomato cans, but rather journeyman and trial hoarses, some of whom gave other good fighters trouble. Foreman didn't exactly struggle with these men either. He utterly destroyed them.



On the other hand, of Lewis' 44 pro fights, about 20 of them were world class opposition.


Agreed, I'll give you no argument here. Besides I've already said that I'd favour Lewis over Foreman.


By your reasoning, Butterbean would have to be considered very good too, because he was only stopped once in 90 or so fights.


In all fairness,

I think that you're getting a bit carried away with this comparison.


And while Ali was an all time great, he was hardly an all time great puncher. Overmatched guys like Rudi Lubbers also went the distance with him.


I think most people agree that Foreman's loss to Ali wasn't exactly chin related.

Again, I want to reiturate that while I pick Lewis over Foreman, the Ali and Young Losses are bad criteria to use, given that we can just as easily turn around and say that if Mccall and Rahman knocked out Lewis, then Foreman could do it to. This is not the logic that I prefer to use though. I think we should just leave it at the notion that Lewis was a bad match for Foreman stylistically, and not use one way comparisons to make predictions, as they tend to come across as being a double standard.

[ChrisPontius]

Agreed 100%.


Interesting by the way, it's only a few votes away from being exactly 50/50 after 100 votes.

[mr. magoo]

Agreed 100%.


Interesting by the way, it's only a few votes away from being exactly 50/50 after 100 votes.

Not surprising,

They were both awesome fighters. :good

[Lostmykeys]

[quote=ChrisPontius]And he does, which is why he has a chance.





Actually, a lot of them weren't tomato cans, but rather journeyman and trial hoarses, some of whom gave other good fighters trouble. Foreman didn't exactly struggle with these men either. He utterly destroyed them.




Agreed, I'll give you no argument here. Besides I've already said that I'd favour Lewis over Foreman.



In all fairness,

I think that you're getting a bit carried away with this comparison.



I think most people agree that Foreman's loss to Ali wasn't exactly chin related.

Again, I want to reiturate that while I pick Lewis over Foreman, the Ali and Young Losses are bad criteria to use, given that we can just as easily turn around and say that if Mccall and Rahman knocked out Lewis, then Foreman could do it to. This is not the logic that I prefer to use though. I think we should just leave it at the notion that Lewis was a bad match for Foreman stylistically, and not use one way comparisons to make predictions, as they tend to come across as being a double standard.

Agreed but i still believe that Foreman would take Lewis.

[mr. magoo]

[quote=mr. magoo]

Agreed but i still believe that Foreman would take Lewis.

And although I'd pick Lewis, it's not entirely unreasonable to think that Foreman would have had a chance. A two time world champion with 68 knockouts in 76 wins, with only one stoppage loss in 81 fights would have a chance at beating anybody. I don't favour Froeman's style against Lewis's, but thats no guarantee of anything. Lewis as we all know, was not unsuseptible to getting KO'd, and had he fought Foreman, George would have likely been the hardest puncher he ever faced.

While I disagree with your pick, I also acknowledge that it's not unreasonable.

[Duodenum]

I already voted, but I'd like to pose a question. Can Lewis win a match in which every forward step taken is Foreman's?

[mr. magoo]

I already voted, but I'd like to pose a question. Can Lewis win a match in which every forward step taken is Foreman's?

My answer is yes,

Lennox had the jab, movement, and power to keep george at bay. That's not to say that Foreman wouldn't land enough to harm Lewis, but I think that Lewis had the right tools to combat Foreman's walk-in style.

[ChrisPontius]

I already voted, but I'd like to pose a question. Can Lewis win a match in which every forward step taken is Foreman's?

Yep, Lewis is very versatile and has shown in fights that he can fight off the back foot or do the leading. In the Tua fight, he was on the back foot most of the time without much trouble, picking his shots.

[Vanboxingfan]

[quote=Lostmykeys]

And although I'd pick Lewis, it's not entirely unreasonable to think that Foreman would have had a chance. A two time world champion with 68 knockouts in 76 wins, with only one stoppage loss in 81 fights would have a chance at beating anybody. I don't favour Froeman's style against Lewis's, but thats no guarantee of anything. Lewis as we all know, was not unsuseptible to getting KO'd, and had he fought Foreman, George would have likely been the hardest puncher he ever faced.

While I disagree with your pick, I also acknowledge that it's not unreasonable.

Well said, you're echoed my sentiments perfectly!

[Bo Bo Olson]

Tiny George loses to a good big man.

[anut]

Tiny George loses to a good big man.

TINY GEORGE????? HIS FIST IS BIGGER THAN LENNOXS......HIS LEGS ARE THICKER THAN LENNOXS....LENNOX IS ONLY 1 INCH TALLER THAN GEORGE FOREMAN......HOW IS GEORGE FOREMAN SMALLER?????? GEORGES JAB WOULD OFF SET EVERYTHING LENNOX DID........TUA WENT 12 RDS WITH LENNOX........TUA WOULDNT LAST 5 RDS WITH PRIME FOREMAN......I KNOW STYLES MAKE FIGHTS BUT AS SOON AS LENNOX GOT HIT....HE WOULD BE VERY DEFENSIVE.....AND FOREMAN WOULD CUT OFF THE RING AND MAKE LENNOX WORK HARD.....LENNOX GETS KNOCKED OUT IN 4 RDS......:smoke:smoke:smoke:smoke

[Bo Bo Olson]

George was the first big 220-225 pound man to be champ (Clay and Frazer were 195 when they won, and Liston was "so huge" at 210/15)...and looked big, HUGE way back then.....

Living in Germany I'd not seen Lennox till the fight vs Butler. The one after McCall.....I tuned in just a bit late...and they were panning 236 pound Butler who looked so huge...and then to the for me first look at Lennox....I took an estamate of 212 pounds and you could have knocked me over with a feather 250 pounds???? Where....he looked slim and trim like a young Ali....
With Forman you knew he was big and bulky or Huge.......Lennox was really huge and didn't look it.
So at 225 big bulky pounds Tiny Forman loses to slim and trim 250 Lennox IMO of course.

[Mankind]

Foreman is one of the most powerful heavyweight to put gloves on.
The mere fact he could win another title at 47 is a testament to that.

Lewis did have a suspect chin and it was exposed by smaller fighters.
he also survived many a close call from the likes of Briggs and Mercer.

Lewis's size does not save him this time. Any version of Foreman beats Lennox Lewis.

[Sweet Science]

Foreman is one of the most powerful heavyweight to put gloves on.
The mere fact he could win another title at 47 is a testament to that.

Lewis did have a suspect chin and it was exposed by smaller fighters.
he also survived many a close call from the likes of Briggs and Mercer.

Lewis's size does not save him this time. Any version of Foreman beats Lennox Lewis.

I totally agree with this. No heavyweight in the history of the sport has ever hit harder. People mention Lyle and Shavers, but their power does not exceed Foremans.

[anut]

George was the first big 220-225 pound man to be champ (Clay and Frazer were 195 when they won, and Liston was "so huge" at 210/15)...and looked big, HUGE way back then.....

Living in Germany I'd not seen Lennox till the fight vs Butler. The one after McCall.....I tuned in just a bit late...and they were panning 236 pound Butler who looked so huge...and then to the for me first look at Lennox....I took an estamate of 212 pounds and you could have knocked me over with a feather 250 pounds???? Where....he looked slim and trim like a young Ali....
With Forman you knew he was big and bulky or Huge.......Lennox was really huge and didn't look it.
So at 225 big bulky pounds Tiny Forman loses to slim and trim 250 Lennox IMO of course.

WOULDNT HAPPEN......FOREMAN HAS A BETTER JAB THAN ;EWIS.....AND A MUCH BETTER CHIN......I LIKE LENNOX BUT HE WOULD LOOSE.

[mr. magoo]

I totally agree with this. No heavyweight in the history of the sport has ever hit harder. People mention Lyle and Shavers, but their power does not exceed Foremans.

Not to nit pick here, but I don't think too many people view Lyle as being an all time great puncher on par with Foreman or Shavers.

[Bo Bo Olson]

Forman's jab is not in the same class as Lennox. Don't see where you got your impression....powerful yes but not fast or all that good.

Forman 6"3 1/2 reach 82, weight for Fraiser 217....220 for Ali....
Lenoxx 6'5" 84 inch reach.....238 for McCall, 248 for Butler, 246 for Rahman 2.
total Reach(height and reach) for Lennox, of 3 1/2 inches.

Lyle had Foreman down,(great fight) Ali stopped him.
McCall and Rahman Koed Lennox...don't really know how many times he was down out side of those two times....but all in all, Lenoxx fought better more active and higher rated comp....

Forman had condition problems, Forte(who), PERALTA(was a good lt.heavy) 1, (Peratala 2 was 10 round KO of 15, and Jimmy Young won in 12.
You can say it shows his power....but up to Blind in one eye Frazier, he was fed nothing but tommato cans, out side of an old Chevelo and Boone Kirkman.....Perlata wasn't exactly a house hold name.....

So looking back in mind and Boxrec...it's no wonder I favored Frazier...didn't know about that bad eye...no one did except his trainer.

I have deleted comments I made about Old Foreman, in that is not relevent to this thread.....

[JimboDs]

Anyone who said Lewis is on crack. Not worth it to elaborate any further.

[ChrisPontius]

Anyone who said Lewis is on crack. Not worth it to elaborate any further.

Definitly. Lewis has a glass chin, no stamina, little power and no heart, and Foreman was from the 70's. What were those 57 people that voted for Lewis thinking?!

[JimboDs]

Definitly. Lewis has a glass chin, no stamina, little power and no heart, and Foreman was from the 70's. What were those 57 people that voted for Lewis thinking?!

Lewis was a very good tactician. Norton was a better one. This is a no-brainer.

[ChrisPontius]

Norton was also a lot more durable and beat The Greatest. He didn't get beat up by journeymen like Lummox Lewis. A no-brainer indeed.

[Luigi1985]

I pick Lewis over Foreman any times, both at their best. Lennox had equal power, a better stamina, much better boxing skills, a better guard, better punch arsenal, reach-advantages, etc., the only advantage Foreman had was his chin, but I see Lewis carefully outpointing Foreman until the midrounds, where a left- right- combinations TKO´s George...

[mr. magoo]

I pick Lewis over Foreman any times, both at their best. Lennox had equal power, a better stamina, much better boxing skills, a better guard, better punch arsenal, reach-advantages, etc., the only advantage Foreman had was his chin, but I see Lewis carefully outpointing Foreman until the midrounds, where a left- right- combinations TKO´s George...


Thats all well and good Luigi, but please change your avator to a star wars figure.

Thats what we're doing this week :good

[Luigi1985]

Thats all well and good Luigi, but please change your avator to a star wars figure.

Thats what we're doing this week :good


Mr Magoo, just for you! :thumbsup

[JimboDs]

I pick Lewis over Foreman any times, both at their best. Lennox had equal power, a better stamina, much better boxing skills, a better guard, better punch arsenal, reach-advantages, etc., the only advantage Foreman had was his chin, but I see Lewis carefully outpointing Foreman until the midrounds, where a left- right- combinations TKO´s George...

Equal Power!? Okay, I was wrong. You're not smoking crack. You're tripping on LSD.

[Luigi1985]

Equal Power!? Okay, I was wrong. You're not smoking crack. You're tripping on LSD.

I take both sometimes, but to be honest, I prefered it in the past, now I take only sometimes some pills, you know. I´m a party-man. But that doesn´t change the fact that I know what I´m talking about. Foreman comes from the most overrated HW-era, the 70s, OK. When you look at his record he has an amazing KO- record, but you can´t just estimate because of his KO-%, Lewis right hand is one of the hardest punching-wise ever, it´s not crazy when someone thinks Lewis power is equal to Foreman´s, and when you´re so death sure about it, why do you discuss in a forum, where are only junkies at?...

[JimboDs]

Show me some clips of Lennox lifting fighters off the ground with his punches.

[Luigi1985]

Show me some clips of Lennox lifting fighters off the ground with his punches.


I think his KO- wins for example against Rahman, a 260- Grant, Ruddock, Golota, etc. speak for themselves, he KO´d very big and good fighters with good chins, he could do some real damage with his right hand or with his uppercuts for example...

[ChrisPontius]

Lewis has very little chance in this one. He has a glass chin and Foreman lifted his opponents off the ground with his uppercuts.

[Luigi1985]

Lewis has very little chance in this one. He has a glass chin and Foreman lifted his opponents off the ground with his uppercuts.


Oh, shit, you´re probably right. And don´t forget, Foreman fought in the 70s!!!!! :shock:

[anut]

Anyone who said Lewis is on crack. Not worth it to elaborate any further.
AGREED

[anut]

Forman's jab is not in the same class as Lennox. Don't see where you got your impression....powerful yes but not fast or all that good.

Forman 6"3 1/2 reach 82, weight for Fraiser 217....220 for Ali....
Lenoxx 6'5" 84 inch reach.....238 for McCall, 248 for Butler, 246 for Rahman 2.
total Reach(height and reach) for Lennox, of 3 1/2 inches.

Lyle had Foreman down,(great fight) Ali stopped him.
McCall and Rahman Koed Lennox...don't really know how many times he was down out side of those two times....but all in all, Lenoxx fought better more active and higher rated comp....

Forman had condition problems, Forte(who), PERALTA(was a good lt.heavy) 1, (Peratala 2 was 10 round KO of 15, and Jimmy Young won in 12.
You can say it shows his power....but up to Blind in one eye Frazier, he was fed nothing but tommato cans, out side of an old Chevelo and Boone Kirkman.....Perlata wasn't exactly a house hold name.....

So looking back in mind and Boxrec...it's no wonder I favored Frazier...didn't know about that bad eye...no one did except his trainer.

I have deleted comments I made about Old Foreman, in that is not relevent to this thread...../
WHAT DO U MEAN FOREMANS JAB ISNT AS GOOD AS LEWISS????? ITS HEAVIER ....... U MENTION FOREMAN NOT KOING PETRALTA WELL MAVORIVIC WASNT KOD BY LEWIS.......PRIME FOREMAN WOULD KNOCK THE SHIT OUTTA A 37 YR OLD HOLYFIELD...SEROUISLY....LEWIS WENT 12 RDS.............SHIT IF BOXING IS ABOUT SIZE THEN WHY DID JOE LOIUS BEAT ON PRIMO CARNERA????....IM NOT SAYIN LEWIS IS A BUM......PS BY 1977 FOREMAN WEIGHED 23O LBS......PS LEWIS FOUGHT HIS SHARE OF TOMATO CANS.....LEVI BILLUPS 10RD(SANDERS KOD HIM IN 1)...JEAN CHANET.....YES THE GREAT JEAN CHANET 7 RDS TOO BEAT A 37 YR OLD JOURNEY MAN........BRUCE JOHNSON 2 RD.......ANYWAY DAVID TUA WOULNT SEE RD 5 AGAINST FOREMAN.:smoke:smoke:smoke:smoke:smoke

[cross_trainer]

Lewis has a glass chin, and Foreman hit as hard as David Tua. Therefore, Foreman KO 1.

[Luigi1985]

/
WHAT DO U MEAN FOREMANS JAB ISNT AS GOOD AS LEWISS????? ITS HEAVIER ....... U MENTION FOREMAN NOT KOING PETRALTA WELL MAVORIVIC WASNT KOD BY LEWIS.......PRIME FOREMAN WOULD KNOCK THE SHIT OUTTA A 37 YR OLD HOLYFIELD...SEROUISLY....LEWIS WENT 12 RDS.............SHIT IF BOXING IS ABOUT SIZE THEN WHY DID JOE LOIUS BEAT ON PRIMO CARNERA????....IM NOT SAYIN LEWIS IS A BUM......PS BY 1977 FOREMAN WEIGHED 23O LBS......PS LEWIS FOUGHT HIS SHARE OF TOMATO CANS.....LEVI BILLUPS 10RD(SANDERS KOD HIM IN 1)...JEAN CHANET.....YES THE GREAT JEAN CHANET 7 RDS TOO BEAT A 37 YR OLD JOURNEY MAN........BRUCE JOHNSON 2 RD.......ANYWAY DAVID TUA WOULNT SEE RD 5 AGAINST FOREMAN.:smoke:smoke:smoke:smoke:smoke



To judge you by your last posts, you would perfectly suit to the General Boxing Forum...

[anut]

Oh, shit, you´re probably right. And don´t forget, Foreman fought in the 70s!!!!! :shock:

YA LIKE THE 70S HEAVYWEIGHTS WERENT THE BEST EVER.....IF LAME BREWSTER CAN KNOCK OUT WLAD.....CAN U IMAGINE WHAT A MACHINE LIKE JOE FRAZIER WOULD DO TOO WLAD:patsch

[Luigi1985]

YA LIKE THE 70S HEAVYWEIGHTS WERENT THE BEST EVER.....IF LAME BREWSTER CAN KNOCK OUT WLAD.....CAN U IMAGINE WHAT A MACHINE LIKE JOE FRAZIER WOULD DO TOO WLAD:patsch


:lol:


Did I ever say something about Wlad in this thread? WTF are you talking about?

[anut]

:lol:


Did I ever say something about Wlad in this thread? WTF are you talking about?

IM JUST SAYIN THERES A FEW GUYS ON HERE WHO SEEM TOO THINK BIGGER IS BETTER....IM JUST SAYIN FRAZIER WOULD SMOKE WLAD.....:smoke:smoke

[JimboDs]

:lol:


Did I ever say something about Wlad in this thread? WTF are you talking about?

I think his point is that 70's era heavyweights were vastly superior to modern era heavyweights. He's right. In the last almost thirty years, there's only two been three HW's who could have been competitive against a prime Ali, Frazier, Foreman:

Prime Tyson: Would likely lose to all three

Prime Holyfield: Frazier and Foreman would be too much, could give Ali a norton-like hard time, but he doesn't beat a prime Ali (late 60's).

Prime Holmes: Might be able to beat Frazier as a result of style. Could give Ali a hard time, but doesn't beat a prime Ali (late 60's). I don't see him matching up well against Foreman.

Riddick Bowe could have been mentioned here, except he was prime for like one fight, so he doesn't qualify.

[Luigi1985]

IM JUST SAYIN THERES A FEW GUYS ON HERE WHO SEEM TOO THINK BIGGER IS BETTER....IM JUST SAYIN FRAZIER WOULD SMOKE WLAD.....:smoke:smoke


OK, but I´m not one of them. Weight/ size is only an advantage, like let´s say chin or so. I would also favour Frazier to KO Wlad pretty early...

[anut]

OK, but I´m not one of them. Weight/ size is only an advantage, like let´s say chin or so. I would also favour Frazier to KO Wlad pretty early...

I AGREE.........PS RAZOR RUDDOCK WAS AFRAID OF LEWIS SO WAS GOLOTA.............FOREMAN WOULDNT BE.....I KNOW LEWIS WASNT AT HIS PEAK AGAINST BRUNO.....BUT CAN U IMAGINE WHAT FOREMAN WOULD DO.....:smoke:smoke:smoke:smoke

[Bo Bo Olson]

I find it ammusing, the way glass chin is tossed around.

Patterson had a glass chin.... maybe....in that he was always on his ass...jack inthe box....Thor's hammer did Mahen in too. 2x Liston, 1 time Ali. I find it ammusing to find out Joe Louis had a glass chin too...
Lyle is not thought to have a glass chin, nor Frazier, nor Max Baer. Nor Liston.
About the only people with out a glass chin was Grim, Chevello and Ali.

The jorney man McCall....was good enough to get the title shot before he cracked up.....:hey it's afterwards he became nothing...yet as a old nothing, many want to watch a Good Fight with him and Peters.
An Out of Shape Louis playing around gets caught with a great lucky punch...In the 70's the fight with McCall would not have been called off so early...especially as Champ. Who knows if he could not have survived the round.

I'm an old fart, and can remember when Foreman got as much respect as Liston, before he made his money comeback. As soon as he lost to Young he got laughed out of town. With his retirment, was well about time..any one who lost to Young wasn't much.....
Can't help it, they were as stupid then as now. Young was a man tainted as Ali's sparing partner...so was Holms tainted in the beginning.
Believe it or not, there was a time when it was thought the man wans't really very good to be a sparing partner of some champ. Instead of being thought good enough to be a sparing partner of this and that style who was good enough to sharpen the Champ and get whopped around with out being allowed to whopp back.

Was Holy faster than Forman..yes....actually there was a time when Holy had more than adaquate power and carried that power long.
Tua was also a wrecking ball.
Would Louis have had any problem with Fraizer...no..IMO too small.
In Fact Frazier came into the first fight fat, dumb, and happy....in that Foreman hadn't fought anyone.
So lets get back to Tiny Foreman:bbb who in his day was so huge at 217 to 220 pounds that the Word Huge like Liston(212) got whiped out of the books. Lennox was 20-30 pounds bigger, and not carrying fat, out side of Rahman, and Klitichko...there he was going to fight Donut Face, and didn't need to be in good shape.
Foreman vs Lennox would have been a good time machine fight.

I have often been wrong, favoring Archie over the Rock(my parents favored teh Rock), Patterson so often, Liston three times, Frazier vs Foreman, Foreman vs Ali, Tyson vs Douglas, Spinks vs Tyson, Lennox vs Rahman 1.
I've been right too....
Now back to the Jab, Rahman 2, that Jab was world class from a very fit Lennox...it was such a great surprise to Rahman, that he had no idea what the hell was happening...now that jab is so much better than Foreman's it is not even funny. Forman had a good power left, almost on the level of a Klitchko, not on the level of a Liston. But it was a telephone pole and not a rapier and or a telephone pole that Lennox had.

So I have Tiny Foreman:hi: losing, in that it is a boxing match and not John Wayne chin slapping contest.

[anut]

I find it ammusing, the way glass chin is tossed around.

Patterson had a glass chin.... maybe....in that he was always on his ass...jack inthe box....Thor's hammer did Mahen in too. 2x Liston, 1 time Ali. I find it ammusing to find out Joe Louis had a glass chin too...
Lyle is not thought to have a glass chin, nor Frazier, nor Max Baer. Nor Liston.
About the only people with out a glass chin was Grim, Chevello and Ali.

The jorney man McCall....was good enough to get the title shot before he cracked up.....:hey it's afterwards he became nothing...yet as a old nothing, many want to watch a Good Fight with him and Peters.
An Out of Shape Louis playing around gets caught with a great lucky punch...In the 70's the fight with McCall would not have been called off so early...especially as Champ. Who knows if he could not have survived the round.

I'm an old fart, and can remember when Foreman got as much respect as Liston, before he made his money comeback. As soon as he lost to Young he got laughed out of town. With his retirment, was well about time..any one who lost to Young wasn't much.....
Can't help it, they were as stupid then as now. Young was a man tainted as Ali's sparing partner...so was Holms tainted in the beginning.
Believe it or not, there was a time when it was thought the man wans't really very good to be a sparing partner of some champ. Instead of being thought good enough to be a sparing partner of this and that style who was good enough to sharpen the Champ and get whopped around with out being allowed to whopp back.

Was Holy faster than Forman..yes....actually there was a time when Holy had more than adaquate power and carried that power long.
Tua was also a wrecking ball.
Would Louis have had any problem with Fraizer...no..IMO too small.
In Fact Frazier came into the first fight fat, dumb, and happy....in that Foreman hadn't fought anyone.
So lets get back to Tiny Foreman:bbb who in his day was so huge at 217 to 220 pounds that the Word Huge like Liston(212) got whiped out of the books. Lennox was 20-30 pounds bigger, and not carrying fat, out side of Rahman, and Klitichko...there he was going to fight Donut Face, and didn't need to be in good shape.
Foreman vs Lennox would have been a good time machine fight.

I have often been wrong, favoring Archie over the Rock(my parents favored teh Rock), Patterson so often, Liston three times, Frazier vs Foreman, Foreman vs Ali, Tyson vs Douglas, Spinks vs Tyson, Lennox vs Rahman 1.
I've been right too....
Now back to the Jab, Rahman 2, that Jab was world class from a very fit Lennox...it was such a great surprise to Rahman, that he had no idea what the hell was happening...now that jab is so much better than Foreman's it is not even funny. Forman had a good power left, almost on the level of a Klitchko, not on the level of a Liston. But it was a telephone pole and not a rapier and or a telephone pole that Lennox had.

So I have Tiny Foreman:hi: losing, in that it is a boxing match and not John Wayne chin slapping contest.

IM SORRY U FEEL THAT WAY.....I DONT......GO WATCH LEWIS/BUTLER....LEWIS LOOKED LIKE SHIT...TOO PASSIVE....BIG DEAL HE BEAT MICHAEL GRANT(LIKE FOREMAN WOULDNT)....HE BEAT BOTHA....HE LOOKED GOOD.....BUT FOREMAN WOULD FUK BOTHA UP TOO AS FOR TUA MAN TUA WOULD BE MADE TOO ORDER FOR FOREMAN AND WOULDNT LAST 12 RDS......LEWIS IS VERY LUCKY HE FOUGHT A SHELL OF A MIKE TYSON WHO CLEARLY HAD NOTHING LEFT SHIT HE COULDNT EVEN BEAT HIS SPARRING PARTNER (DANNY WILLIAMS....HE HELPED TYSON 4 THE FRANCIS BOUT).....BUT THATS A WHOLE OTHER THREAD.....LEWIS IS A TOP 10 FOR SURE BUT HE WOULDNT BEAT FOREMAN.

[LennoxGOAT]

Amazing how people are looking back at Foreman like his shit didn't stink. And people tossing around glass chin do realize that Foreman hit the canvas more times than Lewis?

Lewis would own Foreman. Please see the Ali, Young, and even the Morrison fight for the types of different gameplans Lennox would incorporate.

Lennox is bigger, faster, and stronger.

Lay off the 70's gatorade fellas....:hi: :hi:

[anut]

Amazing how people are looking back at Foreman like his shit didn't stink. And people tossing around glass chin do realize that Foreman hit the canvas more times than Lewis?

Lewis would own Foreman. Please see the Ali, Young, and even the Morrison fight for the types of different gameplans Lennox would incorporate.

Lennox is bigger, faster, and stronger.

Lay off the 70's gatorade fellas....:hi: :hi:

FOREMAN HIT THE CANVASS........BUT HE GOT UP FROM THE CANVASS.......YES HE LOST TOO JIMMY YOUNG BUT THATS CAUSE HE PLAYED WITH HIM WHEN GIL CLANCY TOLD HIM TOO STAY ON THE GAME PLAN.....PS OSSIE OCCASIO MADE LEWIS LOOK LIKE SHIT.....LEWIS IS LUCKY HE DIDNT FIGHT YOUNG ON THE SAME NIGHT.:smoke:smoke:smoke:smoke

[anut]

Amazing how people are looking back at Foreman like his shit didn't stink. And people tossing around glass chin do realize that Foreman hit the canvas more times than Lewis?

Lewis would own Foreman. Please see the Ali, Young, and even the Morrison fight for the types of different gameplans Lennox would incorporate.

Lennox is bigger, faster, and stronger.

Lay off the 70's gatorade fellas....:hi: :hi:

LENNOX IS ONLY 1 INCH TALLER .....FASTER I AGREE....BUT STRONGER NO WAY........I SEEN HIM SPAR WITH JEREMY WILLIAMS...LEWIS PITY PARS TOO MUCH......2ND FIGHT WITH HOLY HE LET AN OLD MAN COME VERY CLOSE......PRIME FOREMAN WOULD HAVE KNOCKED OUT A 37 YR OLD HOLY...........PS PRIME HOLY WOULD EASILY BEAT PRIME LEWIS.....BY DECISION.

[Bo Bo Olson]

6 foot 3 1/2 which was very very tall for 1970. 220 was very HUGE.
now that is light, and average. Liston was Huge at 215...
Vs 6' 5" which was considered then very very tall for Lennox's time.
The difference in heaght is 1 1/2 inch plus 2 inches in reach, for a total of 3 1/2 inch total reach, which in top levels of boxing a hell of a lot.

Now very tall is 6 foot 7.... Down the road we will have a real tallented powerful 6 foot 9 or ten fighter and we can then talk of Tiny Lennox.:!:

Having never seen Lennox, and knowing he had been Ko'ed just before Butler...I expected the shaky first round....but after that I was impressed at his smooth quick "Ali" motion ...of course Butler was just a jorneryman, but Lennox impressed me. Later I thought he could have done more and be more brave.....but you just don't know how many times I'd said the same about Ali....in fact, Lennox was braver than Ali in his more offensive approach.

But the reason we have horse races is a difference of opinion....so who do you want, Whirlaway or Gallant Fox...rainy or dry track.

[JimboDs]

Amazing how people are looking back at Foreman like his shit didn't stink. And people tossing around glass chin do realize that Foreman hit the canvas more times than Lewis?

Lewis would own Foreman. Please see the Ali, Young, and even the Morrison fight for the types of different gameplans Lennox would incorporate.

Lennox is bigger, faster, and stronger.

Lay off the 70's gatorade fellas....:hi: :hi:

I don't like to resort to name-calling usually, but you are either a moron or a teenager talking completely out of his ass.

First, you can't adopt the Ali strategy against Foreman unless you have an Ali-like chin. Lewis isn't even close.

The Foreman Morrison fought was over 40.

Foreman wasn't prime against young. His head was all fucked up.

And with regard to who hit the canvas more, Foreman got knocked out once. It was after he punched himself out against Ali. Lewis got knocked out by bums. All of the other times Foreman hit the canvas that I can remember are against Ron Lyle, which was a fight he won. And by the way, if Lewis fought Lyle he would have been KO'd.

Lennox is bigger, not faster, and certainly not stronger. Your argument that he had equal power is that he knocked a couple bums out? Foreman brutally KO'd Joe Frazier and Ken Norton (both fighters who beat a near prime Ali). Experts who've seen everyone have said Foreman hit harder than Tyson and Liston.

70's cool-aid? You don't have a clue what you're talking about. If there's nostalgic old men here, I'm not one of them. I wasn't alive in the 70's, but any idiot can watch film and see the level of skill and athleticism has declined sharply (with a few individual exceptions). There's a pretty simple reason for this. The best athletes among demographics that used to go into boxing are going into football and basketball instead because if they don't make it as pro's, they can at least get an education. Also, their chances of success (though still small) are greater in those sports. You have to realize there's much more opportunity in those sports now than there was in the 60's and 70's. The heavyweight division is now left with over-sized and undisciplined fighters who don't have the same level of athleticism as the division once had. Lighter divisions haven't declined because a 150 lb guy can't play football, basketball, or even baseball no matter how athletic he is.

[NickHudson]

Jimbo, your analysis on sports demographics from the 70s through to the 90s, including the drain into basketball and gridiron away from boxing, is something I have commented on before in this forum, but noone has run with the ball.

I think there is a large grain of truth in it. The most athletic yanks are not into boxing anymore, its a real shame...

I don't like to resort to name-calling usually, but you are either a moron or a teenager talking completely out of his ass.

First, you can't adopt the Ali strategy against Foreman unless you have an Ali-like chin. Lewis isn't even close.

The Foreman Morrison fought was over 40.

Foreman wasn't prime against young. His head was all fucked up.

And with regard to who hit the canvas more, Foreman got knocked out once. It was after he punched himself out against Ali. Lewis got knocked out by bums. All of the other times Foreman hit the canvas that I can remember are against Ron Lyle, which was a fight he won. And by the way, if Lewis fought Lyle he would have been KO'd.

Lennox is bigger, not faster, and certainly not stronger. Your argument that he had equal power is that he knocked a couple bums out? Foreman brutally KO'd Joe Frazier and Ken Norton (both fighters who beat a near prime Ali). Experts who've seen everyone have said Foreman hit harder than Tyson and Liston.

70's cool-aid? You don't have a clue what you're talking about. If there's nostalgic old men here, I'm not one of them. I wasn't alive in the 70's, but any idiot can watch film and see the level of skill and athleticism has declined sharply (with a few individual exceptions). There's a pretty simple reason for this. The best athletes among demographics that used to go into boxing are going into football and basketball instead because if they don't make it as pro's, they can at least get an education. Also, their chances of success (though still small) are greater in those sports. You have to realize there's much more opportunity in those sports now than there was in the 60's and 70's. The heavyweight division is now left with over-sized and undisciplined fighters who don't have the same level of athleticism as the division once had. Lighter divisions haven't declined because a 150 lb guy can't play football, basketball, or even baseball no matter how athletic he is.

[JimboDs]

If Jimmy Young could box Foreman's head off, imagine what Lewis would do. Foreman also couldn't touch Ali in '74. Ali hit him whenever he wanted. Foreman is very overrated on the basis of him smashing lard ass Frazier and getting a lucky punch against Moorer. Jerry Quarry would have had a field day with Foreman. Foreman also ducked Oscar Bonavena. Even Gregorio Peralta gave George problems.

:lol:

Couldn't touch Ali? Ali said it was the hardest he'd ever been hit. Every blood vessel in his arms was broken. Ali survived because he had a great jaw and ropes looser than a 10 dollar whore. Moorer has nothing to do with a prime Foreman. You can't mention young either. When someone says 'prime' it has to mean physical and mental or (as is necessary with Foreman) the best combination of the two, which was Foreman before the Ali fight. You put that George Foreman in the ring with Lewis and it's no contest. I can't believe i'm actually debating this.

[Blacc Jesus]

I don't like to resort to name-calling usually, but you are either a moron or a teenager talking completely out of his ass.

First, you can't adopt the Ali strategy against Foreman unless you have an Ali-like chin. Lewis isn't even close.

The Foreman Morrison fought was over 40.

Foreman wasn't prime against young. His head was all fucked up.

And with regard to who hit the canvas more, Foreman got knocked out once. It was after he punched himself out against Ali. Lewis got knocked out by bums. All of the other times Foreman hit the canvas that I can remember are against Ron Lyle, which was a fight he won. And by the way, if Lewis fought Lyle he would have been KO'd.

Lennox is bigger, not faster, and certainly not stronger. Your argument that he had equal power is that he knocked a couple bums out? Foreman brutally KO'd Joe Frazier and Ken Norton (both fighters who beat a near prime Ali). Experts who've seen everyone have said Foreman hit harder than Tyson and Liston.

70's cool-aid? You don't have a clue what you're talking about. If there's nostalgic old men here, I'm not one of them. I wasn't alive in the 70's, but any idiot can watch film and see the level of skill and athleticism has declined sharply (with a few individual exceptions). There's a pretty simple reason for this. The best athletes among demographics that used to go into boxing are going into football and basketball instead because if they don't make it as pro's, they can at least get an education. Also, their chances of success (though still small) are greater in those sports. You have to realize there's much more opportunity in those sports now than there was in the 60's and 70's. The heavyweight division is now left with over-sized and undisciplined fighters who don't have the same level of athleticism as the division once had. Lighter divisions haven't declined because a 150 lb guy can't play football, basketball, or even baseball no matter how athletic he is.
:clap::clap::clap:

[Luigi1985]

:clap::clap::clap:



Sensational post!

[JimboDs]

He hit him in the head too, though so much was taken off because Ali was able to lean back so far on the loose ropes.

By the way, what's Ali's motivation for lying about Foreman hitting him the hardest he's been hit?

I can't understand how anyone would think Lewis would have a prayer against George's power. He doesn't have anywhere near enough handspeed and lateral movement to keep a great puncher off-balance. He would get destroyed.

[anut]

6 foot 3 1/2 which was very very tall for 1970. 220 was very HUGE.
now that is light, and average. Liston was Huge at 215...
Vs 6' 5" which was considered then very very tall for Lennox's time.
The difference in heaght is 1 1/2 inch plus 2 inches in reach, for a total of 3 1/2 inch total reach, which in top levels of boxing a hell of a lot.

Now very tall is 6 foot 7.... Down the road we will have a real tallented powerful 6 foot 9 or ten fighter and we can then talk of Tiny Lennox.:!:

Having never seen Lennox, and knowing he had been Ko'ed just before Butler...I expected the shaky first round....but after that I was impressed at his smooth quick "Ali" motion ...of course Butler was just a jorneryman, but Lennox impressed me. Later I thought he could have done more and be more brave.....but you just don't know how many times I'd said the same about Ali....in fact, Lennox was braver than Ali in his more offensive approach.

But the reason we have horse races is a difference of opinion....so who do you want, Whirlaway or Gallant Fox...rainy or dry track.

SO U ARE SAYING SINCE VALUEV IS 7 FEET AND WEIGHS ABOUT 320 LBS HE WOULD BEAT LENNOX RIGHT????

[Vanboxingfan]

I don't like to resort to name-calling usually, but you are either a moron or a teenager talking completely out of his ass.

First, you can't adopt the Ali strategy against Foreman unless you have an Ali-like chin. Lewis isn't even close.

The Foreman Morrison fought was over 40.

Foreman wasn't prime against young. His head was all fucked up.

And with regard to who hit the canvas more, Foreman got knocked out once. It was after he punched himself out against Ali. Lewis got knocked out by bums. All of the other times Foreman hit the canvas that I can remember are against Ron Lyle, which was a fight he won. And by the way, if Lewis fought Lyle he would have been KO'd.

Lennox is bigger, not faster, and certainly not stronger. Your argument that he had equal power is that he knocked a couple bums out? Foreman brutally KO'd Joe Frazier and Ken Norton (both fighters who beat a near prime Ali). Experts who've seen everyone have said Foreman hit harder than Tyson and Liston.

70's cool-aid? You don't have a clue what you're talking about. If there's nostalgic old men here, I'm not one of them. I wasn't alive in the 70's, but any idiot can watch film and see the level of skill and athleticism has declined sharply (with a few individual exceptions). There's a pretty simple reason for this. The best athletes among demographics that used to go into boxing are going into football and basketball instead because if they don't make it as pro's, they can at least get an education. Also, their chances of success (though still small) are greater in those sports. You have to realize there's much more opportunity in those sports now than there was in the 60's and 70's. The heavyweight division is now left with over-sized and undisciplined fighters who don't have the same level of athleticism as the division once had. Lighter divisions haven't declined because a 150 lb guy can't play football, basketball, or even baseball no matter how athletic he is.

Jimbo, I don't know what you do for a living but I know you're not an analyst. You have admitted you weren't around in the 70's, but I was. And I can say beyond a doubt that a prime Lewis was faster than Foreman. I'd bet my house on this and I've seen both fight extensively. Tell me which fights prove Foreman was faster than Lewis.

Is Lewis stronger? I think so and so does the Ring magazine which did a mythical match up between the two fighters and picked Lewis to win, partly because it was felt Lewis was stronger. So if you disagree, fine, bring forth some evidence to back up your opinions. And certainly no boxing fan would ever call Lewis opponents (or any boxer for that matter) bums. Ruddock was no bum, neither was Golota or Morrison, or Bruno or Briggs. If you're not a boxing fan just say so..calling boxers bums certainly doesn't make you a fan in my books. And as far as Ali goes, don't put him on a pedestal. Yes he was good but he wasn't perfect and he had trouble against various styles.

As far as this theory that boxers have gotten worse because there's more options for big men to go into other sports, any empirical evidence to back this up? Or is this just a hypothesis you've dreamt up. Surely an intelligent young man like yourself can cite some studies to back up your claims..so let's see them.

[Vanboxingfan]

BTW, I'm in the camp that thinks Foreman would have beaten Ali in a rematch, so I have a great deal of respect for Foreman. But I respect Lewis also, and in a head to head match up I'd pick Lewis, knowing that Foreman could win if things unfolded his way. But if I were putting on odds it would be 55-45 in favour of Lewis, so a Foreman win wouldn't be a huge upset in my books.

[JimboDs]

Strength and punching power are not the same thing first of all. Second, show me someone who says Lewis hit as hard as Foreman and I'll show you someone who is delusional. You want a study to back that up? Well, I can't go back to Foreman v. Frazier I and snatch him out of the ring and put them both in front of an electronic dummy. However, I've never see Lewis Lewis hit anyone the way Foreman did. If you do, I'd be happy to watch it. I'll eat my words.

Lewis was a solid boxer, but he did not have the foot speed and lateral movement to keep a vicious puncher like foreman off balance. He would not be able to avoid getting hit by Foreman. One thing you'll notice about Foreman's fights (as with prime Tyson) is that guys go into panic mode the first time they get hit because they'd never been hit that hard.

Foreman's power would be too much. Lewis got knocked out by Rahman for god's sake.

Lewis would have to physically dominate Foreman in order to win. That's something nobody ever managed to do.

[Bonedaddy]

Lewis by late KO. His size and reach would have meant George would be unlikely to bully him like most of his opponents. Its also worth mentioning Foremans inability to throw straight punches. His wide arcing style I think would leave too many gaps for the much more technically gifted Lewis to exploit with his superior speed. That said, a punchers fight is never lost till the fat lady sings...what a mouth watering prospect the fight would be...

[JimboDs]

As far as this theory that boxers have gotten worse because there's more options for big men to go into other sports, any empirical evidence to back this up? Or is this just a hypothesis you've dreamt up. Surely an intelligent young man like yourself can cite some studies to back up your claims..so let's see them.

It's not something that there's studies about lying around. However, I don't think human beings have become less athletic in the last 25 years, but there's obviously been a big decline in the level of athleticism among heavyweights.

I don't think it's a stretch at all to say that a great athlete with the size to play football would be stupid to go into boxing instead. There's no college scholarships for boxing, so if you're poor (like most boxers are) you would have to make it as a pro or you're screwed. In boxing, one would have to make it all the way to the top and be marketed the right way before he would have a chance at making the kind of money NFL players make today. Your odds are better in team sports and at least there's that college safety net.

[mr. magoo]

It's not something that there's studies about lying around. However, I don't think human beings have become less athletic in the last 25 years, but there's obviously been a big decline in the level of athleticism among heavyweights.

I don't think it's a stretch at all to say that a great athlete with the size to play football would be stupid to go into boxing instead. There's no college scholarships for boxing, so if you're poor (like most boxers are) you would have to make it as a pro or you're screwed. In boxing, one would have to make it all the way to the top and be marketed the right way before he would have a chance at making the kind of money NFL players make today. Your odds are better in team sports and at least there's that college safety net.

Agreed,

and eliminating sports all together as a career, most young blacks, hispanics, and less fortunate whites, have more educational and vocational options than they did 30 years ago. There are a lot more financial aid funds available for low income families to send kids to school and get jobs down the road. Also, I don't think that there are too many boxing gyms or park district programs anymore where boxing is concerned. At one point, every neighborhood in every city had a Gym on the corner.

[ChrisPontius]

Strength and punching power are not the same thing first of all. Second, show me someone who says Lewis hit as hard as Foreman and I'll show you someone who is delusional. You want a study to back that up? Well, I can't go back to Foreman v. Frazier I and snatch him out of the ring and put them both in front of an electronic dummy. However, I've never see Lewis Lewis hit anyone the way Foreman did. If you do, I'd be happy to watch it. I'll eat my words.


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Oh, and Lewis DID have the speed of foot and lateral movement if he wanted to stay away. Watch his fight with Tua for instance. Or his rematch with McCall, or with Rahman.
The punch that finished Rahman looked and sounded more deadly than any punch Foreman ever landed.

[JimboDs]

The punch that finished Rahman looked and sounded more deadly than any punch Foreman ever landed.

Really? I was more impressed by the Foreman uppercuts that lifted a 200+ man off of the floor.

Foreman had destructive power in every punch he threw. Not just overhand straights.

I will admit that I was wrong about the speed, as I haven't seen Lewis fight in a while. I still think he gets overpowered easily in this fight.

You'll never convince me that Lewis was even close to having the same power as Foreman, but you can keep trying if you want to.

[Bo Bo Olson]

Wow, a 200 pound fighter just lifted a 180 pound fighter off his feet with an upper cut...:admin :admin :admin so what.

That is the same as a Foreman at 220 doing a 200 pound fighter.

What I'm saying is Foreman is not now a HUGE heavy like he was back then....neither is a 210-15 pound HUGE Liston.

Today Foreman is Average sized and light...so today being so SMALL, some folks would have to say he would need to depend on his Speed....

Liston would be told today to go down to Cruiser.

Ali also said Patterson hit hard...

No Lewis would beat the hell out of Valuov, same as either Klitchko. Forman or Liston would also, along with Frazer, Patterson, and Tyson, and Witherspoon....Holms...
Valuov vs TINY Carrarea.....:hi: :hi: :hi:
In fact in todays ring, he'd not be noticed for much, in that there are 2 or so 7 footers and a few guys 6 foot 7-8.

1970 as hard as it is to immagine, the best athletes were even then playing football, baseball and basketball...by way of collage. They had affermitive action also...

[Vanboxingfan]

Really? I was more impressed by the Foreman uppercuts that lifted a 200+ man off of the floor.

Foreman had destructive power in every punch he threw. Not just overhand straights.

I will admit that I was wrong about the speed, as I haven't seen Lewis fight in a while. I still think he gets overpowered easily in this fight.

You'll never convince me that Lewis was even close to having the same power as Foreman, but you can keep trying if you want to.

You have absolutely no evidence that Foreman hit harder than Lewis, all you have is a biased opinion. Personally I think that they are in the same ball park although I don't mind giving the edge to Foreman in that department. But as you yourself admitted, speed goes to Lewis and boxing skills also go to Lewis. As does height and reach advantage. So while I'm not saying Foreman can't win, the cards are certainly stacked against him. As for the chin arguement that's a two edge sword, yes Lewis was down twice and didn't get up, but Foreman was down more and he too didn't get up against Ali. And if one says that's a stamina rather than a chin issue, fine, then the stamina edge goes to Lewis as well.

[JimboDs]

You have absolutely no evidence that Foreman hit harder than Lewis, all you have is a biased opinion.

There's no tangible evidence in existence to say Lewis was stronger, Foreman was stronger, or they were even. So, I guess you're right there. It seems pretty clear to me, but apparently that's not everyone's perception. We can argue that point to death, but it doesn't seem to be getting us anywhere.

As far as picking the fight, I do believe (based on what evidence is available) that Foreman was much more capable of knocking Lewis out than vice versa. Lewis was knocked out by lesser fighters than Foreman and though skilled, I don't see him being able to avoid taking big shots from him. If he somehow managed to, he'd win on points or by very late KO since he's the faster fighter and a more solid boxer. I would put my money on Foreman KO any day of the week though.

[mr. magoo]

James " Quick" Tillis beats them both.

.......End of Story.........

[Marciano Frazier]

Lewis and Emmanuel Steward would be well aware of Foreman's punching power as well as his technical flaws. Lewis would probably elect to box "small" George behind a stiff jab and throwing the occasional right hand which Foreman was quite open to, as Ali showed in their first round when he moved.
Lewis was 6'5" with an 84" reach. Foreman was 6'3 1/2" with an 80" reach. This is hardly a gap that would make Foreman "small" to Lewis. Lewis' height/reach edge here isn't substantial enough to realistically think he could just keep Foreman at the end of his jab and control him outside his range.
I also don't think Lewis' right hand can really be too well compared with Ali's, which was lighter, but much faster and sharper, as well as Young's. Foreman was very rusty and under-confident going into the Lyle match.


I think Lewis' chin and recuperative abilities would take him through rough moments during the first four rounds. Lewis' chin is not as bad as perceived, took quite a lot of bombs and to top things off, Foreman is by no means a one-punch knockout artist. Foreman was best at landing hooks, uppercuts and wild swings while most of the time Lewis was caught by punches, they were straight shots.
I think this is mainly where I would differ. Foreman was recklessly aggressive, durable and an incredible powerhouse, and Lewis- particularly the Lewis of the Golota fight- was not a defensive genius, nor was he small and quick on his feet, nor was he durable enough to stand up to much direct exposure to Foreman's offense. I think he'd have a chance at sniping George from long-range, but Foreman's chin would be much more reliable against Lewis' shots than vice versa, I reckon. I'm tending to think Foreman takes him out around the fourth or fifth, although likely not without first eating a lot of leather and being more than a little queasy himself.

[Bigcat]

Lewis would outrate George over 9 rounds and George would run out of ideas and finally run out of gas through chasing the moving punching Lewis..

Lennox via stoppage in 10..

George walking through treacle by the end and his punches becoming sporadic .. His face looking reminisscent of the night Alexis Stewart took him to the limit..

[ChrisPontius]

Lewis was 6'5" with an 84" reach. Foreman was 6'3 1/2" with an 80" reach. This is hardly a gap that would make Foreman "small" to Lewis. Lewis' height/reach edge here isn't substantial enough to realistically think he could just keep Foreman at the end of his jab and control him outside his range.


I just said "small" because Foreman's nickname is "big", one of his great assets, size, would actually be a disadvantage in this fight instead of the usual advantage.



I also don't think Lewis' right hand can really be too well compared with Ali's, which was lighter, but much faster and sharper, as well as Young's. Foreman was very rusty and under-confident going into the Lyle match.


I think this is mainly where I would differ. Foreman was recklessly aggressive, durable and an incredible powerhouse, and Lewis- particularly the Lewis of the Golota fight- was not a defensive genius, nor was he small and quick on his feet, nor was he durable enough to stand up to much direct exposure to Foreman's offense. I think he'd have a chance at sniping George from long-range, but Foreman's chin would be much more reliable against Lewis' shots than vice versa, I reckon. I'm tending to think Foreman takes him out around the fourth or fifth, although likely not without first eating a lot of leather and being more than a little queasy himself.

Ali's right hand was somewhat quicker than Lewis', but Ali was 32 at that point and to be honest i don't think that there's all that much between them. Watch Lewis KO Botha with a quick right, or Ruddock. Or Golota.
And it's not like Ali had to hide in a shelter after landing a right hand. Foreman was completely off balance with his ridiculous "i stick my glove in the air" defense, which works against a swarmer like Frazier but not a skilled boxer of his own size who easily penetrates that defence. Ali got through something like 14 right hands in the first round alone, without all that much retaliation. Foreman, as durable as he is, is not gonna eat 14 right hands from Lennox Lewis.

Lewis may not have been a defensive genius, but he was very hard to hit. The only time he came close to losing a decision (=getting hit much) was when he fought Mercer's fight up close. Obviously he's gonna lose if he fights like that against Foreman, although Foreman does not have Mercer's durability, but he does have a lot more power.

And Lewis actually was a lot quicker of foot than Foreman. Ali was exagarrating with the zombie-imitation on Foreman, but there is a grain of truth in it; he's flat footed as hell and not mobile. He did try to box on his toes at times but that didn't work at all.


Also i think you're exagarrating Foreman's durability. Mind you, Foreman was down 4 times in a timespan of 7 years, fighting about 6 ranked contenders.
By comparison, Lewis was down 2 times in a timespan of 13 years, fighting about 19 ranked contenders. You can say that Foreman was tired, but this is also part of durability. He was a lot more durable in his comeback, but unless you want to put that version of Foreman in with Lewis, it's pretty much irrelevant here. Foreman was down regularly because of his horrible balance and pacing/stamina. And those problems he will also have when he faces Lewis.

[Bummy Davis]

I think this fight could take two directions, The Lewis of the Tyson fight could carefully bring George into the 7-8th round but he may then outbox or hurt a tired Foreman but George could also hurt Lennox (George hit harder than McCall and Rahman but a young version was a bit more telegraghed) the other problem I have is Lennox never Ko'd anyone after the 8th round but a young Foreman( a GIFT stpp over Peralta) did not either. An older more relaxed Foreman would be handled by Lewis UD12. Lewis was not as protected as George leading up to the title and George was carefully matched if not he could have lost to Quarry(COULDA not Woulda) or Bonavena,Shavers, or one of the other guys he did not fight ..........but it is not likely.

[anut]

I think this fight could take two directions, The Lewis of the Tyson fight could carefully bring George into the 7-8th round but he may then outbox or hurt a tired Foreman but George could also hurt Lennox (George hit harder than McCall and Rahman but a young version was a bit more telegraghed) the other problem I have is Lennox never Ko'd anyone after the 8th round but a young Foreman( a GIFT stpp over Peralta) did not either. An older more relaxed Foreman would be handled by Lewis UD12. Lewis was not as protected as George leading up to the title and George was carefully matched if not he could have lost to Quarry(COULDA not Woulda) or Bonavena,Shavers, or one of the other guys he did not fight ..........but it is not likely.

LEWIS FOUGHT A LOT OF BUMS ON HIS WAY UP.....HIS FIRST BIG NAME WAS RUDDOCK......BUT LEVI BILLUPS/38 YR OLD MIKE WEAVER THE GREAT GARY MASON....THE GREAT DEREK WILLIAMS....THE GREAT JEAN CHANETT.....ECT...WERE NO BETTERTHAN FOREMANS OPPENENTS B4 HE FOUGHT FRA:hat:hat:hat:hat:hat:hat:hat:hatZIER

[JohnThomas1]

LEWIS FOUGHT A LOT OF BUMS ON HIS WAY UP.....HIS FIRST BIG NAME WAS RUDDOCK......BUT LEVI BILLUPS/38 YR OLD MIKE WEAVER THE GREAT GARY MASON....THE GREAT DEREK WILLIAMS....THE GREAT JEAN CHANETT.....ECT...WERE NO BETTERTHAN FOREMANS OPPENENTS B4 HE FOUGHT FRA:hat:hat:hat:hat:hat:hat:hat:hatZIER

Why don't you post the names with records beside them both fought right up to their first title fight.

[Marciano Frazier]

I just said "small" because Foreman's nickname is "big", one of his great assets, size, would actually be a disadvantage in this fight instead of the usual advantage.
I wouldn't really call size one of Foreman's "greatest" assets, particularly since his size wasn't especially great.

Ali's right hand was somewhat quicker than Lewis', but Ali was 32 at that point and to be honest i don't think that there's all that much between them. Watch Lewis KO Botha with a quick right, or Ruddock. Or Golota.
Here I'm afraid you're just plain overrating Lewis. Ali is in the top three-four fastest-handed champions of all time, and in the '70s, it was primarily his footspeed which had declined somewhat, not his handspeed. Lewis was fast for a 6'5", 240-pounder, but not in Ali's league.

And it's not like Ali had to hide in a shelter after landing a right hand. Foreman was completely off balance with his ridiculous "i stick my glove in the air" defense, which works against a swarmer like Frazier but not a skilled boxer of his own size who easily penetrates that defence.
I suspect Foreman's rather experienced and savvy cornermen(Ray Arcel, Archie Moore) would be aware that his hands-out-in-front-with-gloves-open defense wouldn't be effective against a guy like Lewis and train him to modify it somewhat for this match.

Ali got through something like 14 right hands in the first round alone, without all that much retaliation. Foreman, as durable as he is, is not gonna eat 14 right hands from Lennox Lewis.
Lewis was neither as fast nor as active nor as intelligent as Ali, and if he were throwing quick, darting right leads instead of sitting down on the right as a power punch, then I'm sure Foreman could take them.

Lewis may not have been a defensive genius, but he was very hard to hit. The only time he came close to losing a decision (=getting hit much) was when he fought Mercer's fight up close. Obviously he's gonna lose if he fights like that against Foreman, although Foreman does not have Mercer's durability, but he does have a lot more power.
There were a fair share who thought Holyfield could've had a win/draw in the rematch. Lewis also took more than a bit of punishment in the Vitali fight, although he was admittedly aging and rusty at the time. Not to mention he was flattened by two guys who were tactical masters or brilliant offensive technicians.


Also i think you're exagarrating Foreman's durability. Mind you, Foreman was down 4 times in a timespan of 7 years, fighting about 6 ranked contenders.
The knockdowns against Ali and Young were clearly due to exhaustion, and Foreman was rusty and lackadaisical when he was knocked down twice by monstrous punches from Lyle, who he still rallied to beat.

By comparison, Lewis was down 2 times in a timespan of 13 years, fighting about 19 ranked contenders. You can say that Foreman was tired, but this is also part of durability. He was a lot more durable in his comeback, but unless you want to put that version of Foreman in with Lewis, it's pretty much irrelevant here. Foreman was down regularly because of his horrible balance and pacing/stamina. And those problems he will also have when he faces Lewis.
Why don't we look at a much more important statistical comparison in this category? Lewis was knocked out twice in 44 professional fights. Foreman was knocked out once in 81 pro fights. In other words, Lewis was knocked out on an average of about four times as often as Foreman was. Moreover, Foreman's only knockout loss was due to exhaustion against Ali(by the way, when I say "durability" I'm referring to the guy's chin/ability to stand up to punishment in the short term- Foreman took a single hard punch very well), whereas Lewis' knockout losses were both while he was fresh early in the fight by single punches against mediocre run-of-the-mill contenders. HUGE contrast in the critical category.

[anut]

Why don't you post the names with records beside them both fought right up to their first title fight.

GO ON BOX REC AND CHECK IT OUT LAZY:smoke:smoke:smoke:smoke

[JohnThomas1]

I did, i found out your claim that Lewis's early opponents were no better than Georges to be a crock of shit


:smoke :smoke :smoke :smoke :smoke

[fg2227]

Lewis is getting overrated on these boards.

[JohnThomas1]

Lewis is getting overrated on these boards.

Your great wisdom is only exceeded by your depth of defence.

[McGrain]

Your great wisdom is only exceeded by your depth of defence.

:lol:

He just threw it out there.