Dempsey's Hobbo Days

[McGrain]

Can anyone put a number on Dempsey's pre-challenger fights? I was just watching a documentary with Mike Tyson analysing past champs, and he talks about Dempsey's numbers like they're a total myster. Does anyone know different?

[janitor]

Can anyone put a number on Dempsey's pre-challenger fights? I was just watching a documentary with Mike Tyson analysing past champs, and he talks about Dempsey's numbers like they're a total myster. Does anyone know different?

Dempsey claimed that he had more than a hundred unrecorded fights. Given the record keeping of the period this is quite plausible.

[McGrain]

Greg, it's ratty old video called "Tyson: The Heavyweights". Mike and BBC correspondant Harry Carpenter sitting in a BBC editing suite running BBC film of some of the old champs. It is absolutley fascinating. Mike is curtious, respectful, insightful, a pleasure really, Carpenter was fond of him for years of the back of these interviews.

Tyson loved Dempsey, that much was very clear. "I love Jack Dempsey", he said this more than once. He was also well into Joe Louis, and described Conn-Louis I as his favourite fight. "If i'm depressed or something, I just hit the button on that fight, it just makes my day". I'd guess his top 3 would be Ali, Louis, Dempsey, though I wouldn't like to speculate as to the order.

There is some fantastic footage throughout of the great heavyweights and some lovely footage of Tyson himself.

Don't know if you'll still be able to get it but it's worth trying to track down.

[unitas]

Greg, it's ratty old video called "Tyson: The Heavyweights". Mike and BBC correspondant Harry Carpenter sitting in a BBC editing suite running BBC film of some of the old champs. It is absolutley fascinating. Mike is curtious, respectful, insightful, a pleasure really, Carpenter was fond of him for years of the back of these interviews.

Tyson loved Dempsey, that much was very clear. "I love Jack Dempsey", he said this more than once. He was also well into Joe Louis, and described Conn-Louis I as his favourite fight. "If i'm depressed or something, I just hit the button on that fight, it just makes my day". I'd guess his top 3 would be Ali, Louis, Dempsey, though I wouldn't like to speculate as to the order.

There is some fantastic footage throughout of the great heavyweights and some lovely footage of Tyson himself.

Don't know if you'll still be able to get it but it's worth trying to track down.

i have that tape!!! Tyson comes across as a sensetive, intelligent analyst......with quite a witty sense of humor.

like when they talk about how to fight rocky marciano. i think it was carpenter who suggested that you just have to press rocky, back him up .....like don cockel did.
and i remember tyson saying with a laugh that it would be very hard to convince the opponent to due just that.

[McGrain]

i have that tape!!! Tyson comes across as a sensetive, intelligent analyst......with quite a witty sense of humor.

like when they talk about how to fight rocky marciano. i think it was carpenter who suggested that you just have to press rocky, back him up .....like don cockel did.
and i remember tyson saying with a laugh that it would be very hard to convince the opponent to due just that.

It's brilliant isn't it?

It was Tyson recounting a story Cus told him about how to beat Marciano that started that conversation. Tyson was really gutting himself. That was probably the golden moment from that video right enough.

Also good is Harry's story about Willard keeping that big bolt that he claimed Dempsey hit him with. Must have been amazing to have seen that first hand.

Harry Carpenter continued to stick up for Tyson even after the Danny Williams loss. They made a fine impression on each other I think.

[unitas]

It's brilliant isn't it?

It was Tyson recounting a story Cus told him about how to beat Marciano that started that conversation. Tyson was really gutting himself. That was probably the golden moment from that video right enough.

Also good is Harry's story about Willard keeping that big bolt that he claimed Dempsey hit him with. Must have been amazing to have seen that first hand.

Harry Carpenter continued to stick up for Tyson even after the Danny Williams loss. They made a fine impression on each other I think.

yeah, its fun to watch. carpenter and tyson made a good team.

that willard story about the iron bolt was scary. but i doubt the truth about it. cause dempsey was hitting him from down home.......full force all the way. and he hit him often.
and if you consider the punching power dempsey displayed in later fights, willard injuries are plausible.

[joe33]

yeah, its fun to watch. carpenter and tyson made a good team.

that willard story about the iron bolt was scary. but i doubt the truth about it. cause dempsey was hitting him from down home.......full force all the way. and he hit him often.
and if you consider the punching power dempsey displayed in later fights, willard injuries are plausible.

I have a copy to,they did about three i think,the other one i can remember was about great knockouts,but the heavyweight one was great,though does not tyson say jack johnson was not very good????

[McGrain]

I have a copy to,they did about three i think,the other one i can remember was about great knockouts,but the heavyweight one was great,though does not tyson say jack johnson was not very good????

Basiclly he says that Jack wouldn't "make a penny" in the modern market (because he's boring) which I think is wide of the mark - someone with that talent and that gift for self promotion would be right up there.

He raises the point about Johnson "not being elusive with his body" and points out that that would be a worry for Johnson in the modern era. This is not accurate - but very interestingly I think Tyson may, consiously or unconsciously be answering the question, "could you beat Johnson", in which case he's hit upon the pertinant point.

My own opinion is that if Johnson got the look at Tyson's style that Tyson has had at his he would make it a very competitive fight.

You're right though, Johnson is the only champ Tyson is a little disrespectful of.

[janitor]

Basiclly he says that Jack wouldn't "make a penny" in the modern market (because he's boring) which I think is wide of the mark - someone with that talent and that gift for self promotion would be right up there.


The fact that Johnson was the first coloured champion is as much due to his skill for self promotion as his talent. That is perhaps the one thing he had over Peter Jackson, Sam Langford et al.

[Jack Dempsey]

The 'Kid Blackie' book goes into some detail regarding Dempseys hobo days, its a great read if you can track it down

[Bummy Davis]

I had an old book written by Dempsey, I lent it to someone and never got it back about 30 somewhat years ago but the book gave me a good glimpse into the life of Dempsey and how he was born for fighting, how he used to hang from the undercarrige of the railcars to avoid being hit by the conductors with poles. His arms became like steel cables, he also used to soak his hands and face with brine when he was 8 years old. He wanted to be Champion but his coal miner fights were unreal, he would go from town to town and barenuckle fight. Hardtimes

[McGrain]

I had an old book written by Dempsey, I lent it to someone and never got it back about 30 somewhat years ago but the book gave me a good glimpse into the life of Dempsey and how he was born for fighting, how he used to hang from the undercarrige of the railcars to avoid being hit by the conductors with poles. His arms became like steel cables, he also used to soak his hands and face with brine when he was 8 years old. He wanted to be Champion but his coal miner fights were unreal, he would go from town to town and barenuckle fight. Hardtimes


I felt Dempsey zippng up my all time Heavyweight top 20 as I read your post. I think i will go and have a lie down until the feeling passes.

[janitor]

I felt Dempsey zippng up my all time Heavyweight top 20 as I read your post. I think i will go and have a lie down until the feeling passes.

Fighting will only make it hurt more.

[UpWithEvil]

Dempsey claimed that he had more than a hundred unrecorded fights. Given the record keeping of the period this is quite plausible.

In the 1930s Dempsey estimated his actual career record for boxing matches - proper matches with a ring and gloves - as approximating 120 wins, a dozen losses, and 20 draws.

[Dempsey1238]

Greg, it's ratty old video called "Tyson: The Heavyweights". Mike and BBC correspondant Harry Carpenter sitting in a BBC editing suite running BBC film of some of the old champs. It is absolutley fascinating. Mike is curtious, respectful, insightful, a pleasure really, Carpenter was fond of him for years of the back of these interviews.

Tyson loved Dempsey, that much was very clear. "I love Jack Dempsey", he said this more than once. He was also well into Joe Louis, and described Conn-Louis I as his favourite fight. "If i'm depressed or something, I just hit the button on that fight, it just makes my day". I'd guess his top 3 would be Ali, Louis, Dempsey, though I wouldn't like to speculate as to the order.

There is some fantastic footage throughout of the great heavyweights and some lovely footage of Tyson himself.

Don't know if you'll still be able to get it but it's worth trying to track down.

Never saw it, what did Tyson say about Marciano, Tunney, Corbett, Sullivan, Jeffires, Ali, Fraizer, Holmes ete.himself when compare to the other fighters,

[Dempsey1238]

i have that tape!!! Tyson comes across as a sensetive, intelligent analyst......with quite a witty sense of humor.

like when they talk about how to fight rocky marciano. i think it was carpenter who suggested that you just have to press rocky, back him up .....like don cockel did.
and i remember tyson saying with a laugh that it would be very hard to convince the opponent to due just that.

Well Cockell never back Marciano up in that fight. Marciano just pound him for 9 rounds, like a punching bag. Pretty one sided. I have a good part of that fight, and outside of a few movements here or there, the Rock just lay it into Cockell.

[achillesthegreat]

Dempsey claimed that he had more than a hundred unrecorded fights. Given the record keeping of the period this is quite plausible.
Agreed. We'll never really know.

All we can do is give credit to boxing historians who keep unearthing newspaper articles etc

Like Jim Jeffries. I think he blatently had more than 20 odd fights.

[Dempsey1238]

I think Dempsey had well over 100 unrecorded fights, he would travel from town to town to get fights. For money and food and all that. As said before they were not keeping records.

[Jupiter1610]

Where did Dempsey learn to box from? Who was his first trainer?

[McGrain]

Never saw it, what did Tyson say about Marciano, Tunney, Corbett, Sullivan, Jeffires, Ali, Fraizer, Holmes ete.himself when compare to the other fighters,


The video started with Johnson so nothing on those old time greats i'm afraid.

He was very complimentary about Marciano because of his record. He basically refused to conceed that he would have been beaten because he wasn't beaten, which I thought was very brave. He also refused to conceed that Rocky was "dirty" which carpenter was pretty insistant upon, commenting that "you're not in there to dance" and leaving it at that.

Frazier and Holmes got swallowed by Ali as you may expect. Nothing new, he was complimentary and gracious but he did not go overboard in praise of Ali, his respect was more obvious when comparing him to other fighters, Louis, Marciano etc., as the man to beat.

[Dempsey1238]

Was Carpenter English,?? They always seem to ride on Marciano for being dirty. Sure a few punchings miss there mark, but he was no Harry Greb or Zivic in that regard.

[Bummy Davis]

Tyson, Frazier had a lot of respect for Louis,Marciano and I think Tyson loved Dempsey, Tyson was not a big fan of boxers and he felt he could have walked through Ali

[McGrain]

Was Carpenter English,?? They always seem to ride on Marciano for being dirty. Sure a few punchings miss there mark, but he was no Harry Greb or Zivic in that regard.


Yes, Harry was en Enlglishman.

I think of him as a dirty fighter, I hate the late punch v Walcott especially, but what doomed him to forever dirty in British eyes was probably the Cockel fight. To be fair, the champion himself was said to be "ashen faced" upon seeing the tape of the fight - basically, I think that was Marciano's darkest moment and it came against a British fighter.

[Jack]

Isn't Harry Carpenter still alive? I don't remember hearing anything about him dying. He'd be old now, sure, but I don't think he's dead.

[McGrain]

Isn't Harry Carpenter still alive? I don't remember hearing anything about him dying. He'd be old now, sure, but I don't think he's dead.


You're right.

Referring to him in the past tense just because he's not on tv anymore is very much a case of "my bad".

Excuse me.

[joe33]

Hes 85 or so now,retired in the 90s,i saw him on tv a few months back,looks ancient,but still has his marbles,and knows whats what which is good,i dont mind getting old,just dont want to be mental or anything,and am glad to say harrys not.

[mcvey]

Was Carpenter English,?? They always seem to ride on Marciano for being dirty. Sure a few punchings miss there mark, but he was no Harry Greb or Zivic in that regard.
Watch the Cockell fight,apart from the low blows,he hits him after the bell,and,while he is on the floor."a few punchings miss their mark",it was a bit more than that.

[Dempsey1238]

Yes, Harry was en Enlglishman.

I think of him as a dirty fighter, I hate the late punch v Walcott especially, but what doomed him to forever dirty in British eyes was probably the Cockel fight. To be fair, the champion himself was said to be "ashen faced" upon seeing the tape of the fight - basically, I think that was Marciano's darkest moment and it came against a British fighter.

That fight with Cockell just happen to be sloppy, and for a style like Rocky's, it would have made him look worse than normal. Marciano was thowing eveything he had, and Cockell was taking it. Marciano was just tossing so many punchings, there were a few fouls like the kideny punch, and the time he hit Cockell when down, But Marciano was thowing so many at that time, he could not stop himself in regards to the down punch. The rabbit punch that drop Cockell, Cockell TURN away from the punch when Marciano thown it and it hit Cockell on the back of the hand. I sure other greats had a fight they look awful. Ali look awful for Wepner, and Ali was a lot more dirty vs Wepner than he Marciano was vs Cockell. And yet no one calls Ali a dirty fighter, they give him a slide for it.

Or how about Jack Dempsey the king of the rabbit punchings?? Or Fullmer, even Pep and Saddler had 2 of the dirty fights of all time. But there names seem to be dead last on the list in regards to dirty fighters. And lets not forget Iron Bit Tyson. Marciano was a level or so below these guys in the dirty tactics.

PS Walcott was still "Up" when Marciano thown that left. So I dont count it.

[Dempsey1238]

Watch the Cockell fight,apart from the low blows,he hits him after the bell,and,while he is on the floor."a few punchings miss their mark",it was a bit more than that.

I seen round highlights of that fight, do you have it complete??

[mr. magoo]

Dempsey claimed that he had more than a hundred unrecorded fights. Given the record keeping of the period this is quite plausible.

Given the record keeping of the period, it's quite plausible that people got away with saying whatever they wanted others to believe...

[UpWithEvil]

Given the record keeping of the period, it's quite plausible that people got away with saying whatever they wanted others to believe...

As a Colorado resident I can vouch for this much - there are several small mining communities in the area (Leadville, Farmington, Ouray, Durango) where Dempsey is known to have worked during his days as a laborer. It is not uncommon, when stopping in one of these small towns, to see a small plaque or notice on one of the surviving boom-time buildings stating to the effect, "On this site in 1915, Jack Dempsey, under the name "Kid Blackie", fought and defeated two men in a prizefight."

Toby Smith, author of "Kid Blackie - Jack Dempsey's Colorado Days" did an excellent job tracking down some of these prizefights and documenting them well enough for "official" inclusion in Dempsey's record, but even Smith acknowledges his research still leaves Dempsey's career record incomplete. I wouldn't credit Dempsey with "hundreds" of additional bouts, but I would guess that Dempsey's own unofficial recollection - 120 wins, 12 losses, 20 draws - is probably closer to the mark than his "official" record of 66-6-11.

[mr. magoo]

As a Colorado resident I can vouch for this much - there are several small mining communities in the area (Leadville, Farmington, Ouray, Durango) where Dempsey is known to have worked during his days as a laborer. It is not uncommon, when stopping in one of these small towns, to see a small plaque or notice on one of the surviving boom-time buildings stating to the effect, "On this site in 1915, Jack Dempsey, under the name "Kid Blackie", fought and defeated two men in a prizefight."

Toby Smith, author of "Kid Blackie - Jack Dempsey's Colorado Days" did an excellent job tracking down some of these prizefights and documenting them well enough for "official" inclusion in Dempsey's record, but even Smith acknowledges his research still leaves Dempsey's career record incomplete. I wouldn't credit Dempsey with "hundreds" of additional bouts, but I would guess that Dempsey's own unofficial recollection - 120 wins, 12 losses, 20 draws - is probably closer to the mark than his "official" record of 66-6-11.

Very True,

James Jeffries and a number of other champions, were believed by many historians to have a great deal more bouts than what was actually recorded. As usual, the numbers differ depending on who you talk to, or the sources you read.

[Jack Dempsey]

As a Colorado resident I can vouch for this much - there are several small mining communities in the area (Leadville, Farmington, Ouray, Durango) where Dempsey is known to have worked during his days as a laborer. It is not uncommon, when stopping in one of these small towns, to see a small plaque or notice on one of the surviving boom-time buildings stating to the effect, "On this site in 1915, Jack Dempsey, under the name "Kid Blackie", fought and defeated two men in a prizefight."

Toby Smith, author of "Kid Blackie - Jack Dempsey's Colorado Days" did an excellent job tracking down some of these prizefights and documenting them well enough for "official" inclusion in Dempsey's record, but even Smith acknowledges his research still leaves Dempsey's career record incomplete. I wouldn't credit Dempsey with "hundreds" of additional bouts, but I would guess that Dempsey's own unofficial recollection - 120 wins, 12 losses, 20 draws - is probably closer to the mark than his "official" record of 66-6-11.

How many sources would be required for official inclusion in his fight record?

[McGrain]

I really like the way this thread has turned out. Thanks to everyone who contributed this excellent info.