Prime Holyfield vs Prime Frazier

[kmcc505]

I don't think this one is going the distance, but it'd be a great action fight. Who do you guys have getting the win? Apologies if this has be discussed before, but couldn]t find it.

[My2Sense]

Frazier is a better inside technician IMO, and I don't know if Holy can successfully outbox/outmaneuver him from the outside.

I give Frazier the edge in this one.

[Bokaj]

I don't think Holyfield could keep Joe off of him for long, and on the inside Frazier gradually wears him down. Frazier is very hard to beat if you don't KO him and I don't think Holy would do that.

[McGrain]

Frazier on points.

[kmcc505]

I'm a big Holy fan, but I'm leaning towards Joe also. Joe, in his prime, was a fantastic fighter and would wear his opponents down with his relentless aggression.

Still, it'd be a heck of a fight. I could see Holy pulling the upset, but both men had great chins. Hard to say how one would KO the other.

Thanks for your replies.

[teeto]

Frazier decision

[Curtis Lowe]

Fraizer, probablt by decision. Joe is vastly underrated. A truly great fighter.

[spion]

Styles make fights and Joe would be a nightmare for Holyfield. Holyfield would have his moments but gotta give this one to Joe by UD.

[PhillyPhan69]

I think Frazier would win. I don't see holyfields chin giving way and I don't think holy has the big punch ability necesary to take out Joe. Holy did do a nice job of clinching Tyson when he was in a bad position, and believe he would find a way to do the same when frazier gets to him (No I am not comparing frazier to Tyson, merely Holyfields tactics to a similar situation). I still believ Frazier would land more and cleaner blows as well as do more damage, but i think Holy would give him a war every step of the way. I would be interested in Frazier would respond when Holyfield tried to out muscle him or have him going backwards again in a simalar fashion to tyson.. Would frazier be able to out muscel him as he did agains quarry? how would frazier respond to that and/or would Holy be able to do that to a prime frazier???

[PhillyPhan69]

Fraizer, probablt by decision. Joe is vastly underrated. A truly great fighter.

Joe seems to be in most peoples top 10's and nearly everyone elses top 15, so I am not sure that makes him underrated. Unless you mean H2H I believe many sell him short there. I don't favor many over a prime Frazier.

[Bing]

Guarenteed war can envisage frazier winning a close decision but looking the more beat up at the final bell

[kmcc505]

Joe seems to be in most peoples top 10's and nearly everyone elses top 15, so I am not sure that makes him underrated. Unless you mean H2H I believe many sell him short there. I don't favor many over a prime Frazier.


I'd be interested in knowing who you would favor if you care to share.

[he grant]

An absolute war ... I like Joe in a close one over 15 ... 12 rounds could be even closer ... Evander had an iron chin but the body whipping Joe would put on him would cripple him ...

[Muchmoore]

Frazier outworks him down the stretch to take the decision.

This is one fight where Holyfields tendency to brawl wouldn't be a handicap though. Stick and movers against Frazier are screwed so Holyfield choosing to go toe to toe would be to his benefit.

Damn good fight, but prime Frazier was a buzzsaw and could fight 12 rounds at a high pace. Holyfield wouldn't be able to match his pace for the full 12 and Fraziers relentless style would break Evander down to take the decision 8-4, maybe 7-5.

[round15]

Joe takes Evander and probably stops inside the 12 round distance. Evander wouldn't be able to handle Frazier's pressure and pace. The bodyshots would eventually slow Holyfield down.

[he grant]

I asked Lary Holmes this question and he laughed saying Frazier easy ... he fought Evander and sparred many times with Joe ...

[Minotauro]

Frazier would stop Evander late and hurt him to the body, infact I think Holyfield might hurt Joe early as well. It would be a war with Joe coming out on top.

[Russell]

Over 15 Frazier breaks him down, in my opinion.

Imagine a CW version of Holyfield against a bigger, better, harder hitting Qawi?

[Quick Cash]

Over 15 Frazier breaks him down, in my opinion.

Imagine a CW version of Holyfield against a bigger, better, harder hitting Qawi?

That's what I thought of too. Frazier breaks him down, but I'm not sure he stops him. One thing I know, Holyfield wouldn't be able to stick even if he wanted to.

[JohnThomas1]

Imagine a CW version of Holyfield against a bigger, better, harder hitting Qawi?

IMO that's dumbing it down too much. Holyfield had just 11 pro fights at that time for heavens sake. Qawi, tho up in weight was a brilliant seasoned warrior who put on a fantastic performance that night. If anything Holyfield is boosted by this effort. Even as he stepped up to heavyweight his chances against Tyson were considered miniscule to say the least. Even after he won a few decent bouts he was still given little chance.

I give Holyfield more of a chance than he is being given in here. Frazier would be fave but Holyfield is anything but out of this fight. The man could really soak it up and has some very underrated skills. His tactics vs Tyson were just sublime. Frazier is better inside and has more long term intensity than Tyson but Tyson also hits a bit harder and faster and is far better rounded for two handed firepower.

Holyfield has a solid 10 pounds on Joe and is strong as. Many seem fixated on what Joe would do to Evander but we also need to look at the flipside.

Ali traded a lot with Frazier and very definitely put muc hurt of his owm forward. Holyfield hits harder than Ali, especially with the left hand. At his greatest he also countered very well and has some underrated speed. I think his defense is excellent at his sharpest.

What Evander must do is neutralize the Frazier left hand as best he can. He's gonna take some but he's got to make Frazier pay along the way, and he will.

This will be a war, and a battle of sheer will as much as anything. I think Holyfield has the power and tenacity to put Frazier in serious trouble. Few fighters in history have as much heart as these two.

While Frazier would be fave i think this is almost a pick'em affair. Many say Frazier is a nightmare for Holyfield but i think Evander has some dangerous tools of his own in this one. IMO in some ways he's better equipped than past peak Ali to mix it with Joe.

I thik another fascinating match would be Bowe (tho i don't like him much at all) vs Frazier and will post it pronto.

[OBCboxer]

Frazier UD. He's got the better inside game and would break him down to win a comfortable UD with something like 8-4.

[Bummy Davis]

If you take the Frazier of Ali 1, I would pick him over the Bowe version Holyfield who was having stamina problems (and Heart issues)...If you take the Evander that beat Tyson...that would be a competitive fight....Frazier after Ali 1 went down hill rapidly and never found the condition equal to that fight again....Frazier was a pressure fighter and had the harder punch in the hook, evander had a better 2 hands...still I think it would boil down to who was stronger after 10 rds...also even though aged (toney fight should Evander broken down with body shots) Frazier hooked to the body and head real well....Competitve but Frazier comes on late for a TKO

[JohnThomas1]

Frazier after Ali 1 went down hill rapidly and never found the condition equal to that fight again

I think he just never recovered 100%. Ali's ability to take punishment was inhuman.

[Bokaj]

I think he just never recovered 100%. Ali's ability to take punishment was inhuman.

Yeah, I find it truly amazing how Ali bounced back after FOTC. But in some way the beating he took that night must have stayed with him. I think Manilla was the final straw and then the house started to crumble.

[ChrisPontius]

I would go with Frazier, by decision. Holyfield, like Ali, matches up very well against a big hitter like Tyson because of his extreme durability, strength and counter-punching skills.

However, Frazier is a whole different animal who doesn't try to knock you out with one bomb; instead he wears you down and never gives you a lung full of breath. This is the kind of fight that Holyfield was more susceptible in succumbing to, as we saw against Bowe. You can never count out Holyfield, but i think this match would somewhat resemble Frazier-Quarry I, with Evander not caving in as quickly, but gradually breaking down.

[JohnThomas1]

I would go with Frazier, by decision. Holyfield, like Ali, matches up very well against a big hitter like Tyson because of his extreme durability, strength and counter-punching skills.

However, Frazier is a whole different animal who doesn't try to knock you out with one bomb; instead he wears you down and never gives you a lung full of breath. This is the kind of fight that Holyfield was more susceptible in succumbing to, as we saw against Bowe. You can never count out Holyfield, but i think this match would somewhat resemble Frazier-Quarry I, with Evander not caving in as quickly, but gradually breaking down.

Two questions Chris.

Do you see Holy as substancially more dangerous than Quarry?

Do you see Holyfield as actually having a decent chance of stopping Frazier himself?

Tho i am not going to out and out pick Holy i think he is most dangerous here.

[ChrisPontius]

Do you see Holy as substancially more dangerous than Quarry?


Of course. I didn't say he'd do as bad as Quarry, just that i think Frazier would get the better of a long-term in-fight against Holyfield.



Do you see Holyfield as actually having a decent chance of stopping Frazier himself?


I think the 94-96 version of Holyfield was quite powerful (knocked down Bowe, Mercer and stopped Tyson), and he has a decent chance of stopping Frazier; certainly more than Ali. I wouldn't be surprised to see Frazier tasting canvas somewhere down the stretch, however, i wouldn't count on him getting the TKO win.

[Bummy Davis]

Of course. I didn't say he'd do as bad as Quarry, just that i think Frazier would get the better of a long-term in-fight against Holyfield.




I think the 94-96 version of Holyfield was quite powerful (knocked down Bowe, Mercer and stopped Tyson), and he has a decent chance of stopping Frazier; certainly more than Ali. I wouldn't be surprised to see Frazier tasting canvas somewhere down the stretch, however, i wouldn't count on him getting the TKO win.


Evander did have the abilty to put Frazier down and stop Frazier, I just think in a war of attrition Frazier wins but it could go either way

[MrPook]

Frazier UD

[djanders]

I guess I'm in the minority here. In 12 rounds, prime vs prime, I would pick Evander Holyfield to defeat Joe Frazier by unanimous decision.

[MrMarvel]

Frazier in a close decision.

[Jear]

IMO that's dumbing it down too much. Holyfield had just 11 pro fights at that time for heavens sake. Qawi, tho up in weight was a brilliant seasoned warrior who put on a fantastic performance that night. If anything Holyfield is boosted by this effort. Even as he stepped up to heavyweight his chances against Tyson were considered miniscule to say the least. Even after he won a few decent bouts he was still given little chance.

I give Holyfield more of a chance than he is being given in here. Frazier would be fave but Holyfield is anything but out of this fight. The man could really soak it up and has some very underrated skills. His tactics vs Tyson were just sublime. Frazier is better inside and has more long term intensity than Tyson but Tyson also hits a bit harder and faster and is far better rounded for two handed firepower.

Holyfield has a solid 10 pounds on Joe and is strong as. Many seem fixated on what Joe would do to Evander but we also need to look at the flipside.

Ali traded a lot with Frazier and very definitely put muc hurt of his owm forward. Holyfield hits harder than Ali, especially with the left hand. At his greatest he also countered very well and has some underrated speed. I think his defense is excellent at his sharpest.

What Evander must do is neutralize the Frazier left hand as best he can. He's gonna take some but he's got to make Frazier pay along the way, and he will.

This will be a war, and a battle of sheer will as much as anything. I think Holyfield has the power and tenacity to put Frazier in serious trouble. Few fighters in history have as much heart as these two.

While Frazier would be fave i think this is almost a pick'em affair. Many say Frazier is a nightmare for Holyfield but i think Evander has some dangerous tools of his own in this one. IMO in some ways he's better equipped than past peak Ali to mix it with Joe.

I thik another fascinating match would be Bowe (tho i don't like him much at all) vs Frazier and will post it pronto.

Its scary how often i agree with you JT, are you sure you are an Aussie?
Evander is one of those guys i tend to at first glance shortchange in H2H matches but when you go through the guys he has beaten and the many different styles and fight plans hes executed to do so, it becomes harder and harder to not see scenarios where he could actually pull off victories.

[MAG1965]

I don't think this one is going the distance, but it'd be a great action fight. Who do you guys have getting the win? Apologies if this has be discussed before, but couldn]t find it.I think Evander was greater than Joe. Joe fought Ali well but really Evander would have been as big or bigger than Joe. When Evander is bigger no one seems to do well against him.

[mr. magoo]

IMO that's dumbing it down too much. Holyfield had just 11 pro fights at that time for heavens sake. Qawi, tho up in weight was a brilliant seasoned warrior who put on a fantastic performance that night. If anything Holyfield is boosted by this effort. Even as he stepped up to heavyweight his chances against Tyson were considered miniscule to say the least. Even after he won a few decent bouts he was still given little chance.

I give Holyfield more of a chance than he is being given in here. Frazier would be fave but Holyfield is anything but out of this fight. The man could really soak it up and has some very underrated skills. His tactics vs Tyson were just sublime. Frazier is better inside and has more long term intensity than Tyson but Tyson also hits a bit harder and faster and is far better rounded for two handed firepower.

Holyfield has a solid 10 pounds on Joe and is strong as. Many seem fixated on what Joe would do to Evander but we also need to look at the flipside.

Ali traded a lot with Frazier and very definitely put muc hurt of his owm forward. Holyfield hits harder than Ali, especially with the left hand. At his greatest he also countered very well and has some underrated speed. I think his defense is excellent at his sharpest.

What Evander must do is neutralize the Frazier left hand as best he can. He's gonna take some but he's got to make Frazier pay along the way, and he will.

This will be a war, and a battle of sheer will as much as anything. I think Holyfield has the power and tenacity to put Frazier in serious trouble. Few fighters in history have as much heart as these two.

While Frazier would be fave i think this is almost a pick'em affair. Many say Frazier is a nightmare for Holyfield but i think Evander has some dangerous tools of his own in this one. IMO in some ways he's better equipped than past peak Ali to mix it with Joe.

I thik another fascinating match would be Bowe (tho i don't like him much at all) vs Frazier and will post it pronto.

Co-sign

I will also ad that one thing nobody else has brought up was Evander's ability to tie Mike Tyson up as he was coming in and neutralize his attack, then use his upper body strength to ward him off. People act like Joe is just going to walk right in and tear Holy up on the inside.....Not going to happen.

[JohnThomas1]

Of course. I didn't say he'd do as bad as Quarry, just that i think Frazier would get the better of a long-term in-fight against Holyfield.




I think the 94-96 version of Holyfield was quite powerful (knocked down Bowe, Mercer and stopped Tyson), and he has a decent chance of stopping Frazier; certainly more than Ali. I wouldn't be surprised to see Frazier tasting canvas somewhere down the stretch, however, i wouldn't count on him getting the TKO win.

Cheers champ.

[JohnThomas1]

Its scary how often i agree with you JT, are you sure you are an Aussie?
Evander is one of those guys i tend to at first glance shortchange in H2H matches but when you go through the guys he has beaten and the many different styles and fight plans hes executed to do so, it becomes harder and harder to not see scenarios where he could actually pull off victories.

Hahahaha, yeah fancy US agreeing!!!!!! :D

I'm glad i am not on my Pat Malone in seeing , as you put it, scenario's where Holyfield could win.

[JohnThomas1]

Co-sign

I will also ad that one thing nobody else has brought up was Evander's ability to tie Mike Tyson up as he was coming in and neutralize his attack, then use his upper body strength to ward him off. People act like Joe is just going to walk right in and tear Holy up on the inside.....Not going to happen.


Cheers mate. While i think Frazier would be far harder to tie up than Tyson Holyfield still has the strength and ability to offset his inside attack somewhat.

[Sardu]

Holyfield=better weightlifter
Frazier=better fighter

I saw a replay of the 1975 superstars competition weightlifting. Very few baseball players lifted weights then and even fewer boxers. Jerry Quarry attempted to lift 210lbs. from a standing straight press and failed immediately. Dodgers all-star first baseman Steve Garvey then executed a perfect lift right after Quarry with that weight. Quarry said he had never even attempted weightlifting before - that was his first ever attempt! Lou Brock - the all time leader in basestealing before Rickey Henderson broke his record and track star Kyle Rote jr. also said this was their first ever weightlifting attempts. Incidently, Smokin' Joe did not do well in weighlifting in the 1973 superstars competition. However, had he incorporated weightlifting into his routine I could see Frazier being an absolute monster as a powerlifter because of his strong trunk and thick thighs.

Frazier by decision

[leverage]

"Smokin Joe" by decision. This fight would be be fought mainly on the inside where frazier excelled. Holyfield was no slouch there, but for him to fight frazier there would be playing to joes major strength. He would have no other choice than to fight in the trenches because he could not move swiftly or constantly enough to stay away, neither would he try to. Evander had a warriors heart and he loved to slug.

Frazier would take advantage of this and pound holyfields sides and midsection. bobbing and weaving under many of holyfields punches. He would also find the range with the hook to the head, probably flooring evander at least once.

[OBCboxer]

Holyfield=better weightlifter
Frazier=better fighter

I saw a replay of the 1975 superstars competition weightlifting. Very few baseball players lifted weights then and even fewer boxers. Jerry Quarry attempted to lift 210lbs. from a standing straight press and failed immediately. Dodgers all-star first baseman Steve Garvey then executed a perfect lift right after Quarry with that weight. Quarry said he had never even attempted weightlifting before - that was his first ever attempt! Lou Brock - the all time leader in basestealing before Rickey Henderson broke his record and track star Kyle Rote jr. also said this was their first ever weightlifting attempts. Incidently, Smokin' Joe did not do well in weighlifting in the 1973 superstars competition. However, had he incorporated weightlifting into his routine I could see Frazier being an absolute monster as a powerlifter because of his strong trunk and thick thighs.

Frazier by decision

I agree, if he took up Weightlifting, he'd be a beast.

[round15]

I think he just never recovered 100%. Ali's ability to take punishment was inhuman.

Both Ali and Frazier absorbed and dished out punished to each other in the FOTC.

Ali was tougher than a lot of people give him credit for, and I doubt that Holyfield or Bowe would have been able to take the shots for 12 rounds let alone 15, especially the hooks that Frazier landed in the FOTC.

At the same time, I don't think Bowe or Holyfield win more than five rounds against the FOTC-Ali. FOTC Ali could probably stop both Holyfield and Bowe inside the 15 round distance.

[Jaws]

Holyfield=better weightlifter
Frazier=better fighter

I saw a replay of the 1975 superstars competition weightlifting. Very few baseball players lifted weights then and even fewer boxers. Jerry Quarry attempted to lift 210lbs. from a standing straight press and failed immediately. Dodgers all-star first baseman Steve Garvey then executed a perfect lift right after Quarry with that weight. Quarry said he had never even attempted weightlifting before - that was his first ever attempt! Lou Brock - the all time leader in basestealing before Rickey Henderson broke his record and track star Kyle Rote jr. also said this was their first ever weightlifting attempts. Incidently, Smokin' Joe did not do well in weighlifting in the 1973 superstars competition. However, had he incorporated weightlifting into his routine I could see Frazier being an absolute monster as a powerlifter because of his strong trunk and thick thighs.

Frazier by decision

I agree. Joe was naturally bigger, while Holy was a pumped(roided?) up cruiserweight. I would say Frazier by a close decision. Not that he is a better all around boxer than Holy, but this is an instance of styles make fights. I don't see Evander KOing Joe, and I think Frazier outworks him. But still a very close all-out war.

[BUDW]

Joe wins in a tough battle, Smoking Joe takes to evander in the late rounds wins maybe by TKO

[Manos de Piedra]

Evander wiuld make it a great fight but holy weakness was he was easy to hit, and thats a problem against prime fraizer