Dear JT apologists, Ouma IS an overrated fighter.

[Amsterdam]

And as much as I hear 'who takes on Kassim Ouma for a tune up', well, any big MW with a set of skills and power would have had no trouble with Kassim Ouma and would have KOed him without much trouble and I know this because when you give an extensive look at Ouma's record, you see the type of holes that show that he's just a B level fighter all in all, when you all act like he's some type of force to be reckoned with and by that I mean for big MW's who can hit, which JT is not that obviously.

Here are facts:

- Ouma was defeated by Roman Karmazin wide and was also put on the floor against him. Karmazin is a very good 154 pound fighter, but not even near the size of the bigger MW's campaigning at 160.

- Ouma had a close fight with gate keeper Marco Antonio Rubio, where Rubio, a small 154 pounder, but a pretty good puncher at 154 in Ouma's defence, landed a series of right's and dropped Ouma, had him hurt. Then the fight went on and Ouma got a close decision that was deserved, but I feel this is a show of his class.

- Ouma beat Sechew Powell in a 10 rounder, Dick Flaherty scored it 100-90, which is bullshit. The other two judges had it 97-93 and 96-94 respectively and I found myself agreeing with Weisfeld's 97-93. The main point of this is to show that Ouma had a somewhat competitive event with Powell and Powell went on to barely get by the gate keeper level Ishe Smith. Sechew Powell is not even in the realm of championship level at 154, but surely gave Ouma some trouble.

- SD over Angel Hernandez(gate keeper), CLOSE fight with Verno Phillips(fringe at 154).

.........

Do you get the pattern Taylor apologists? Ouma would give no BIG MW any trouble what so ever and it was truly telling that this small 154 pound fighter was able to give Taylor pressure problems and was able to take everything Taylor through at him on the jaw and the most success Taylor had was just buzzing him with his hardest shots.... where Karmazin and Rubio had him stunned nasty and dropped.

Hype jobs always get saved from rightful criticism and it's not fair.

Abraham, Pavlik, Miranda and other large, hard hitting MW's would wipe the floor with Kassim Ouma and would gladly use him as a tune up, I am so sick of hearing 'who on earth takes Ouma as a tune up' when factors are not even put into perspective.

[TroubleLurks]

Damn dude. Your hatred of Taylor is on par with Presscott and Hoya. Keep the threads coming. Avatar bet that Taylor whips Pavlik?:partya

[Amsterdam]

Damn dude. Your hatred of Taylor is on par with Presscott and Hoya. Keep the threads coming. Avatar bet that Taylor whips Pavlik?:partya

I go through different phases with combat sports, Jermain Taylor apologists and their ridiculous defence of him not performing against Kassim Ouma is debunked above. I am curious to how close the Sergio Mora-Ouma fight will be, I think it will be an Ouma win, but close and that's going to further validate my claim of where Ouma stands.

Even though the Karmazin, Phillips and Rubio events show where he is 100%.

Ouma also stated that Karmazin and Rubio hit harder than Taylor, but that was obvious anyway even though they are medium sized LMW's.

[China_hand_Joe]

And as much as I hear 'who takes on Kassim Ouma for a tune up', well, any big MW with a set of skills and power would have had no trouble with Kassim Ouma and would have KOed him without much trouble and I know this because when you give an extensive look at Ouma's record, you see the type of holes that show that he's just a B level fighter all in all, when you all act like he's some type of force to be reckoned with and by that I mean for big MW's who can hit, which JT is not that obviously.

Here are facts:

- Ouma was defeated by Roman Karmazin wide and was also put on the floor against him. Karmazin is a very good 154 pound fighter, but not even near the size of the bigger MW's campaigning at 160.

- Ouma had a close fight with gate keeper Marco Antonio Rubio, where Rubio, a small 154 pounder, but a pretty good puncher at 154 in Ouma's defence, landed a series of right's and dropped Ouma, had him hurt. Then the fight went on and Ouma got a close decision that was deserved, but I feel this is a show of his class.

- Ouma beat Sechew Powell in a 10 rounder, Dick Flaherty scored it 100-90, which is bullshit. The other two judges had it 97-93 and 96-94 respectively and I found myself agreeing with Weisfeld's 97-93. The main point of this is to show that Ouma had a somewhat competitive event with Powell and Powell went on to barely get by the gate keeper level Ishe Smith. Sechew Powell is not even in the realm of championship level at 154, but surely gave Ouma some trouble.

- SD over Angel Hernandez(gate keeper), CLOSE fight with Verno Phillips(fringe at 154).

.........

Do you get the pattern Taylor apologists? Ouma would give no BIG MW any trouble what so ever and it was truly telling that this small 154 pound fighter was able to give Taylor pressure problems and was able to take everything Taylor through at him on the jaw and the most success Taylor had was just buzzing him with his hardest shots.... where Karmazin and Rubio had him stunned nasty and dropped.

Hype jobs always get saved from rightful criticism and it's not fair.

Abraham, Pavlik, Miranda and other large, hard hitting MW's would wipe the floor with Kassim Ouma and would gladly use him as a tune up, I am so sick of hearing 'who on earth takes Ouma as a tune up' when factors are not even put into perspective.It isn't just Ouma who is overrated. It is every single fighter in the world promoted by an American.

Especially those in self perpetuating circles of hype such as Taylor, Hopkins and Wright.

[BigReg]

Damn dude. Your hatred of Taylor is on par with Presscott and Hoya. Keep the threads coming. Avatar bet that Taylor whips Pavlik?:partya

I agree. This has gotten out of hand. I have no idea why some people on this forum develop a sick obsesion with hating a fighter. I hope Pavlik get's destroyed just so this forum can stop beeing flooded with this type of nonsense

[China_hand_Joe]

Now where this get crazy is Ouma's entire reputation is build on his performance against Taylor. He gets a lot of credit for it.

But Taylor also gets credit for beating Ouma.

In effect Taylor is getting credit for beating Ouma, because Ouma lost to him.

Do you see how the American Boxing Media work -questionmark-




If you are Joe Calzaghe though, nobody you have ever beat is good because Joe Calzaghe has humiliated them.

Joe Calzaghe will never get credit for beating any fighter Joe Calzaghe has beaten, ever.

[brooklyn1550]

You really dislike Jermain Taylor I see

[Amsterdam]

You really dislike Jermain Taylor I see

That's been the case since 2005, aside from the fact that I have been blasting Jermain Taylor too much lately, can we discuss the topic of Taylor vs. Ouma to get it into perspective?

Ouma is no threat to any top MW, probably not even a John Duddy level at that and is going to struggle against better 154's, yet Jermain Taylor has immense trouble with him and can't put his little man, whom have shown a dentable chin a weight class below that has much smaller fighters and everyone gives Taylor a pass because 'who takes Ouma on as a tune and who the hell can KO Ouma?'.

This is a ridiculous stance, it is not fair to Roman Karmazin who beat Ouma really easily and honestly was more effective against Spinks in the rounds that he won and we're supposed to be talking about a P4P level MW lineal champion.

And the worst part, is when Pavlik blows him out of the ring, everyone will act they saw it coming and will ONLY THEN put his run into pure perspective, it's sickening.

[China_hand_Joe]

Taylor, you might have a case for. Hopkins and Wright.. Their resumes speak for themselves..Prime Wright was good yes, not hyped but the credit being handed out in a match between a 42 year old and 35 year old LMW was crazy. Wright went from being unappreciated to something else all together.

Murdering Trinidad in a fantastic display several years ago at 154, doesn't mean Hopkins should be placed top 5 P4P for beating him (Wright) in the present time at 170.

[rr94]

I agree. This has gotten out of hand. I have no idea why some people on this forum develop a sick obsesion with hating a fighter. I hope Pavlik get's destroyed just so this forum can stop beeing flooded with this type of nonsense

PHILADELPHIA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

E A G L E S EAGLES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[BigReg]

PHILADELPHIA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

E A G L E S EAGLES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Super Bowl this year. You got your reservations for Glendale?

[Mrboogie23]

Ouma sucks, taylor sucks, spinks sucks, wright sucks, hopkins sucks. They all suck.

[Fab2333]

Damn Amsterdamn I didnt kno you hated Taylor that much, my goodness.

[thewoo]

So he took a shit fight. What's your point? DLH fought guys like Darrell Coley, Yory boy Campas. Hopkins' revered 20 defenses were against the likes of Carl Daniels, and fucking Robert Allen 3 times. Every single fighter in the history of the sport has taken easy fights. I don't see why there should need to be such a thing as a Taylor apologist. Whether you care to admit it or not he is undefeated 2-0-1 against future hall of famers and currently taking on the biggest threat in his weight class.

[FlatNose]

A most unfair dissection of Taylor.Ouma could be a difficult opponent for anyone.I too, wonder what will be said when Taylor knocks out Pavlick.

[achillesthegreat]

Lets be fair. Ouma is a tough customer who keeps coming.

Taylor won every round. He fought stupid and got a little tired but he dominated and there was nothing wrong with the win apart from a technical standpoint.

[HauntingTheHoly]

How the hell was Hopkins and Wright hyped? If anything, Wright had to build his reputation from absolutely no hype to get to where he is now. The man has done every-damn-thing a fighter is supposed to do, including travel overseas and whoop the hell out of some of Europe's best to get the recognition he has today.

Taylor, you might have a case for. Hopkins and Wright.. Their resumes speak for themselves..

Taylor is 2-0-1 against the fighters who have resumes that speak for themselves, yet his own resume *doesn't* speak for itself? Interesting.

Let me guess, "those fights were bullshit!!!11one" - or some goddamn thing, right?

[pipe wrenched]

It isn't just Ouma who is overrated. It is every single fighter in the world promoted by an American.

Especially those in self perpetuating circles of hype such as Taylor, Hopkins and Wright.

Damn China, I agree with alot of your posts (when not flat out hating on America) and I to a good extent agree about Taylor. But, here lately you seem to have "hate America" at the top of your agenda. Not all American fighters are over hyped and I agree some great Euro fighters deserve much more credit. Just please don't throw us all into the trash heap that a few deserve.:good

[pipe wrenched]

Ouma sucks, taylor sucks, spinks sucks, wright sucks, hopkins sucks. They all suck.

Petty much. I have to agree, though I used to like Taylor more.

[Guru_Too_You]

And as much as I hear 'who takes on Kassim Ouma for a tune up', well, any big MW with a set of skills and power would have had no trouble with Kassim Ouma and would have KOed him without much trouble and I know this because when you give an extensive look at Ouma's record, you see the type of holes that show that he's just a B level fighter all in all, when you all act like he's some type of force to be reckoned with and by that I mean for big MW's who can hit, which JT is not that obviously.

Here are facts:

- Ouma was defeated by Roman Karmazin wide and was also put on the floor against him. Karmazin is a very good 154 pound fighter, but not even near the size of the bigger MW's campaigning at 160.

- Ouma had a close fight with gate keeper Marco Antonio Rubio, where Rubio, a small 154 pounder, but a pretty good puncher at 154 in Ouma's defence, landed a series of right's and dropped Ouma, had him hurt. Then the fight went on and Ouma got a close decision that was deserved, but I feel this is a show of his class.

- Ouma beat Sechew Powell in a 10 rounder, Dick Flaherty scored it 100-90, which is bullshit. The other two judges had it 97-93 and 96-94 respectively and I found myself agreeing with Weisfeld's 97-93. The main point of this is to show that Ouma had a somewhat competitive event with Powell and Powell went on to barely get by the gate keeper level Ishe Smith. Sechew Powell is not even in the realm of championship level at 154, but surely gave Ouma some trouble.

- SD over Angel Hernandez(gate keeper), CLOSE fight with Verno Phillips(fringe at 154).

.........

Do you get the pattern Taylor apologists? Ouma would give no BIG MW any trouble what so ever and it was truly telling that this small 154 pound fighter was able to give Taylor pressure problems and was able to take everything Taylor through at him on the jaw and the most success Taylor had was just buzzing him with his hardest shots.... where Karmazin and Rubio had him stunned nasty and dropped.

Hype jobs always get saved from rightful criticism and it's not fair.

Abraham, Pavlik, Miranda and other large, hard hitting MW's would wipe the floor with Kassim Ouma and would gladly use him as a tune up, I am so sick of hearing 'who on earth takes Ouma as a tune up' when factors are not even put into perspective.

You're going overboard here.

If youre going to put Taylor under that kind of microscope, you had better be able to do the same for Calzaghe.

Taylor has pretty much fought evenly with two better fighters than any Calzaghe has ever / will ever fight.

You can talk down on his other opponents, but the fact remains that he has two wins and a draw that dwarf anything Calzaghe has done.

[Mrboogie23]

Petty much. I have to agree, though I used to like Taylor more.


I was being sarcastic.

[Boinko]

I like Taylor, but I'll be the first to admit his performances against Ouma and Spinks hurt his rep.
But, he quickly signed to fight Pavlik, so what's the point dwelling on those fights. If Pavlik is as good and Taylor is as bad as many here think, then he Jermain should be dispatched easily.

Of course, now that the Pavlik fans have been going on and on about how their man is going to destroy Taylor, they're going to look awfully foolish if it doesn't go down that way.

[pipe wrenched]

I was being sarcastic.

I hear ya (and they would all KO1 me no doubt) I just meant they have sucked to watch.
I will have to re-calibrate my sarcasm detector.:lol:

[Amsterdam]

You're going overboard here.

If youre going to put Taylor under that kind of microscope, you had better be able to do the same for Calzaghe.

Taylor has pretty much fought evenly with two better fighters than any Calzaghe has ever / will ever fight.

You can talk down on his other opponents, but the fact remains that he has two wins and a draw that dwarf anything Calzaghe has done.

But at this point, neither would pose any problem to Calzaghe and neither would fight Calzaghe, besides, this about Jermain Taylor, perhaps I should remove my Calzaghe avatar as everytime I want to bring up criticism, people use Calzaghe as the defence.

It works both ways, Calzaghe dominating an older Eubank, but one that would have KTFO Jermain Taylor and would have presented problems to Hopkins as well considering lesser fighters presented the great Hopkins problems at times. We don't need to put 'big names' on a pedastool do we?

I've presented maximum evidence that Ouma is a non-factor and that Taylor apologists act as if he's a tough challenge for anybody. I have no problem with the fact that Taylor took the Ouma fight, it's a wise tune up, the problem is that he struggled with Ouma and could not put the little guy away, that's the problem.

The other problem is that Pavlik is going KTFO Jermain Taylor and that everyone will act like they saw it coming before hand and then and ONLY THEN start to look at Taylor's run in clear vision.:good

[Guru_Too_You]

But at this point, neither would pose any problem to Calzaghe and neither would fight Calzaghe, besides, this about Jermain Taylor, perhaps I should remove my Calzaghe avatar as everytime I want to bring up criticism, people use Calzaghe as the defence.

It works both ways, Calzaghe dominating an older Eubank, but one that would have KTFO Jermain Taylor and would have presented problems to Hopkins as well considering lesser fighters presented the great Hopkins problems at times. We don't need to put 'big names' on a pedastool do we?

I've presented maximum evidence that Ouma is a non-factor and that Taylor apologists act as if he's a tough challenge for anybody. I have no problem with the fact that Taylor took the Ouma fight, it's a wise tune up, the problem is that he struggled with Ouma and could not put the little guy away, that's the problem.

The other problem is that Pavlik is going KTFO Jermain Taylor and that everyone will act like they saw it coming before hand and then and ONLY THEN start to look at Taylor's run in clear vision.:good
Too many biased opinions in there. Old Eubank would have KO'd Taylor? I dont think so. Winky would be too small in there with Joe, I'll give you that, but to say that the Bernard that fought JT would not have posed Calzaghe problems is ludicrous.

I mean I have JT 1-1-1 in the three bouts against Wink and Bernard and score the Spinks bout a lot closer than most do. But the fact remains that he has fought a large number of different styles, mostly against slick, crafty fighters who were all world class. Even Ouma had won a title at 154. I mean its far better than a Manfredo, who couldnt even eek out a Contender title. Sorry for the Cal reference again, but it puts things into perspective.

And your quick to pick Pavlik over Taylor, but I don't know how well Big Joe would fare against Kelly, and thats whats coming next if Calzaghe gets by Kessler. Again, sorry for the Calzaghe reference, but he and Taylor are the faces of their respective divisions and have to be contrasted.

[Amsterdam]

Too many biased opinions in there. Old Eubank would have KO'd Taylor? I dont think so. Winky would be too small in there with Joe, I'll give you that, but to say that the Bernard that fought JT would not have posed Calzaghe problems is ludicrous.


Yeah, the Eubank vs. Calzaghe would have KOed Taylor, don't pretend like Taylor has a good chin and Eubank was solid that night but couldn't deal with speed(this is a stylistic thing and why Jones ALWAYS beats Eubank, but we already know that). Taylor is a boxer-puncher with a pissy defence and has shown issue's with smaller men who are not of Eubank's experience and class, or punching power for that matter.

Taylor can't hurt Eubank, he can't outbox him and he can't take Eubank's best punches, where am I wrong. I am not being biased, I am being realistic.

And the Hopkins that fought Taylor is not a prime Hopkins and would simply be outworked by Calzaghe because he's too conservative, that's why I said limited threats.

Big names aren't overrated, but because of the factors involved, people overestimate what they can do in their advanced years and that's why Hopkins also easily loses to Chad Dawson.

I mean I have JT 1-1-1 in the three bouts against Wink and Bernard and score the Spinks bout a lot closer than most do. But the fact remains that he has fought a large number of different styles, mostly against slick, crafty fighters who were all world class. Even Ouma had won a title at 154. I mean its far better than a Manfredo, who couldnt even eek out a Contender title. Sorry for the Cal reference again, but it puts things into perspective.

How about Sakio Bika then? This guys pressure and strength would pose issue's to Taylor and I'd be surprised if he won, you have to understand that pressure is what does him in and that's WHY Hopkins could not beat him CLEAR enough, Hopkins is not a pressure guy or a ferocious fighter, he's a conservative fighter at this point.

Winky didn't have the punching power to put his ass away, so he obviously was in for a competitive match and it was, but give Winky even a little more power and Taylor would have been stopped after what he ate.

Don't even act like Taylor could have handled the pressure of Lacy either, he folded under fucking Ouma.

If you want to bring JC into it that is... it all comes around relative.


And your quick to pick Pavlik over Taylor, but I don't know how well Big Joe would fare against Kelly, and thats whats coming next if Calzaghe gets by Kessler. Again, sorry for the Calzaghe reference, but he and Taylor are the faces of their respective divisions and have to be contrasted.


Kessler is 3x as skilled as Pavlik and bigger, if Joe blasts Kessler, it's safe to assume Pavlik has little to no chance. Unless you obviously don't see the skill difference between Kessler and Pavlik, which I know you do because you're a well seasoned knowledgable fan.

Let's not judge off of 'reputation', but actual ability. Does Pavlik compare to MK? No.

Case closed.

[Marnoff]

How the hell was Hopkins and Wright hyped? If anything, Wright had to build his reputation from absolutely no hype to get to where he is now. The man has done every-damn-thing a fighter is supposed to do, including travel overseas and whoop the hell out of some of Europe's best to get the recognition he has today.

Taylor, you might have a case for. Hopkins and Wright.. Their resumes speak for themselves..

I agree. Both Hopkins and Wright had to fly under the radar before earning recognition.

[thewoo]

Correction: Taylor has 2 gift decisions and one gift-draw against fighters with resumes theat speak for themselves..

At best Taylor barely squeaked by Hopkins in their 2nd fight. Hopkins beat him in the first and Wright beat him in their match. 2-0-1 couldve easily been 0-3.. Going by MY cards, Taylor would be 1-2 in those 3 fights..

Luckily your cards don't mean jack shit. An undisputable fact is taylor's record is 2-0-1 against Winky and Hops. Anything else is just an opinion

[tays001]

And as much as I hear 'who takes on Kassim Ouma for a tune up', well, any big MW with a set of skills and power would have had no trouble with Kassim Ouma and would have KOed him without much trouble and I know this because when you give an extensive look at Ouma's record, you see the type of holes that show that he's just a B level fighter all in all, when you all act like he's some type of force to be reckoned with and by that I mean for big MW's who can hit, which JT is not that obviously.

Here are facts:

- Ouma was defeated by Roman Karmazin wide and was also put on the floor against him. Karmazin is a very good 154 pound fighter, but not even near the size of the bigger MW's campaigning at 160.

- Ouma had a close fight with gate keeper Marco Antonio Rubio, where Rubio, a small 154 pounder, but a pretty good puncher at 154 in Ouma's defence, landed a series of right's and dropped Ouma, had him hurt. Then the fight went on and Ouma got a close decision that was deserved, but I feel this is a show of his class.

- Ouma beat Sechew Powell in a 10 rounder, Dick Flaherty scored it 100-90, which is bullshit. The other two judges had it 97-93 and 96-94 respectively and I found myself agreeing with Weisfeld's 97-93. The main point of this is to show that Ouma had a somewhat competitive event with Powell and Powell went on to barely get by the gate keeper level Ishe Smith. Sechew Powell is not even in the realm of championship level at 154, but surely gave Ouma some trouble.

- SD over Angel Hernandez(gate keeper), CLOSE fight with Verno Phillips(fringe at 154).

.........

Do you get the pattern Taylor apologists? Ouma would give no BIG MW any trouble what so ever and it was truly telling that this small 154 pound fighter was able to give Taylor pressure problems and was able to take everything Taylor through at him on the jaw and the most success Taylor had was just buzzing him with his hardest shots.... where Karmazin and Rubio had him stunned nasty and dropped.

Hype jobs always get saved from rightful criticism and it's not fair.

Abraham, Pavlik, Miranda and other large, hard hitting MW's would wipe the floor with Kassim Ouma and would gladly use him as a tune up, I am so sick of hearing 'who on earth takes Ouma as a tune up' when factors are not even put into perspective.

wow now that i look at it you 100% right .

taylor gets KO'd

[Guru_Too_You]

First off, I'm glad I get a nice little debate with another educated poster. Its been a little while. Let's do the damn thing.

Yeah, the Eubank vs. Calzaghe would have KOed Taylor, don't pretend like Taylor has a good chin and Eubank was solid that night but couldn't deal with speed(this is a stylistic thing and why Jones ALWAYS beats Eubank, but we already know that). Taylor is a boxer-puncher with a pissy defence and has shown issue's with smaller men who are not of Eubank's experience and class, or punching power for that matter.

Taylor can't hurt Eubank, he can't outbox him and he can't take Eubank's best punches, where am I wrong. I am not being biased, I am being realistic.


I don't know that Taylor's jab would not have been dominant enough of a factor in that bout. While Eubank certainly had the power to possibly stop Taylor, the only time Taylor has ever shown signs of being hurt was after Picture perfect right hands from Hopkins, and that power of Hopkins also carried all the way up to LHW, as displayed against Tarver. I feel this one would have went the distance, and at that point in Eubank's career it would have been close IMHO. I havent watched that bout in a long long time though and I could be underestimating Eubank at that point in his career. This much I will admit.


And the Hopkins that fought Taylor is not a prime Hopkins and would simply be outworked by Calzaghe because he's too conservative, that's why I said limited threats.

Big names aren't overrated, but because of the factors involved, people overestimate what they can do in their advanced years and that's why Hopkins also easily loses to Chad Dawson.


See, I differ in opinion here. I don't think that anyone can simply go in and outwork Hopkin simply by workrate, especially now at LHW where Bernard looks much more comfortable. He was killing himself at MW, and that to me was the reason that he couldnt put up enough of a workrate against Taylor to win convincingly, though I dont personally feel that Hopkins deserved a loss in either bout. I had Hopkins winning one and a draw in another. Winky had been throwing tons of punches in his last few bouts, but you simply cant do that against Bernard because he is far to adept a counter puncher and the more you throw, the more you get hit. I think its a misconception that you are going to beat even the current Hopkins simply by throwing a bunch. Both Calzaghe and Dawson have been dropped by far less powerful punchers and punches than Hopkins right hand, which he would land a bunch against both Calzaghe and Dawson.


How about Sakio Bika then? This guys pressure and strength would pose issue's to Taylor and I'd be surprised if he won, you have to understand that pressure is what does him in and that's WHY Hopkins could not beat him CLEAR enough, Hopkins is not a pressure guy or a ferocious fighter, he's a conservative fighter at this point.


Again, Hopkins conservative if you fight at his pace. Turn up the volume and youre gonna still eat a bunch of leather. Bika would trouble Taylor much in the same fashion that Ouma did, perhaps even more competitive, but Ouma did not trouble JT, he just survived. He was beaten in damn near every round.


Winky didn't have the punching power to put his ass away, so he obviously was in for a competitive match and it was, but give Winky even a little more power and Taylor would have been stopped after what he ate.


And Taylor would have fought a bit different if Winky did have the power. This is the fight that I do score for Taylor, because he hit Winky cleanly a lot more than anyone wants to give him credit for, and the evidence is in Winky's face, and his refusal of a rematch even when Taylor met all of his demands, as ludicrous as they became.


Don't even act like Taylor could have handled the pressure of Lacy either, he folded under fucking Ouma.


Folded how? By winning every single round?


If you want to bring JC into it that is... it all comes around relative.


Thats cool. It is all relative because they are at the head of their divisions all of 8 pounds away from one another.


Kessler is 3x as skilled as Pavlik and bigger, if Joe blasts Kessler, it's safe to assume Pavlik has little to no chance. Unless you obviously don't see the skill difference between Kessler and Pavlik, which I know you do because you're a well seasoned knowledgable fan.


You criticize Hopkins of fighting at a measured pace, when Kessler is quite conservative himself, although he does pump that jab out there quite a bit. Pavlik does one thing that Kessler doesnt, and thats throw a TON of leather. At Joe's advanced age, and with his tendancy to throw a ton of punches himself, a measured pace is a dangerous way to fight him, and given how Bika looked against him, even you have to acknowledge that Pavlik might pose some serious problems for Joe at this point in his career. I feel that Kessler might be too patient, although I feel both would be very tough battles for the Italian Dragon.


Let's not judge off of 'reputation', but actual ability. Does Pavlik compare to MK? No.


Not with technique, but as far as how much trouble they would bring to Calzaghe, I feel they are comparable.


Case closed.

To be determined. I know we'll meet in the middle somewhere.

[CASH_718]

And as much as I hear 'who takes on Kassim Ouma for a tune up', well, any big MW with a set of skills and power would have had no trouble with Kassim Ouma and would have KOed him without much trouble and I know this because when you give an extensive look at Ouma's record, you see the type of holes that show that he's just a B level fighter all in all, when you all act like he's some type of force to be reckoned with and by that I mean for big MW's who can hit, which JT is not that obviously.

Here are facts:

- Ouma was defeated by Roman Karmazin wide and was also put on the floor against him. Karmazin is a very good 154 pound fighter, but not even near the size of the bigger MW's campaigning at 160.

- Ouma had a close fight with gate keeper Marco Antonio Rubio, where Rubio, a small 154 pounder, but a pretty good puncher at 154 in Ouma's defence, landed a series of right's and dropped Ouma, had him hurt. Then the fight went on and Ouma got a close decision that was deserved, but I feel this is a show of his class.

- Ouma beat Sechew Powell in a 10 rounder, Dick Flaherty scored it 100-90, which is bullshit. The other two judges had it 97-93 and 96-94 respectively and I found myself agreeing with Weisfeld's 97-93. The main point of this is to show that Ouma had a somewhat competitive event with Powell and Powell went on to barely get by the gate keeper level Ishe Smith. Sechew Powell is not even in the realm of championship level at 154, but surely gave Ouma some trouble.

- SD over Angel Hernandez(gate keeper), CLOSE fight with Verno Phillips(fringe at 154).

.........

Do you get the pattern Taylor apologists? Ouma would give no BIG MW any trouble what so ever and it was truly telling that this small 154 pound fighter was able to give Taylor pressure problems and was able to take everything Taylor through at him on the jaw and the most success Taylor had was just buzzing him with his hardest shots.... where Karmazin and Rubio had him stunned nasty and dropped.

Hype jobs always get saved from rightful criticism and it's not fair.

Abraham, Pavlik, Miranda and other large, hard hitting MW's would wipe the floor with Kassim Ouma and would gladly use him as a tune up, I am so sick of hearing 'who on earth takes Ouma as a tune up' when factors are not even put into perspective.

Thank you for dropping my IQ 5 points. :roll:

[China_hand_Joe]

Damn China, I agree with alot of your posts (when not flat out hating on America) and I to a good extent agree about Taylor. But, here lately you seem to have "hate America" at the top of your agenda. Not all American fighters are over hyped and I agree some great Euro fighters deserve much more credit. Just please don't throw us all into the trash heap that a few deserve.:goodSorry mate, I have to use extreme examples to get the message across.

It almost makes me angry seeing hordes of American fans betraying common sense, ignoring obvious factors like Hopkin's age, Tarver's general averageness etc...

I did of course rate fighters like Hopkins and Winky, back when their abilities merited it. Winky was horribly underrated back in his hey-day, I remember how shocked I was to see he was an underdog, a significant one vs Trinidad. I believe that was when I realised how bad the American Boxing Media can be and how powerful it's effect is.

[Amsterdam]

wow now that i look at it you 100% right .

taylor gets KO'd

You're damn right he gets KOed, no matter how many times people want to bring the highly avoided Joe Calzaghe into consideration just because I am one of his biggest fans, but a boxing fan first, that right there is telling that my theory here with Taylor is correct when the biggest defence in Taylor's area is that 'he was competitive with Wright and Hopkins and that Calzaghe's never fought anyone that good'.

The hilarious part is that Taylor would not even defeat a peak Robin Reid, he'd most definitley get KOed there as well seeing as Hopkins had him on queer street and Winky stunned him. Nobody who cannot handle even an ounce of pressure from tiny LMW's, all the while being a huge MW is going to do a damn thing to anyone in a peak Reid's class.

So let's keep downplaying Calzaghe's opposition because there is no other defence in Taylor's direction, meaning that even if you think Calzaghe is shit(which I don't care, it doesn't effect anything involving this situation), I am correct about Jermain Taylor and his disgraceful run to the sport of boxing.

It'll be 'bye bye' to Jermain Taylor soon enough, but everyone's going to act like they saw it coming.:lol:

[Guru_Too_You]

You're damn right he gets KOed, no matter how many times people want to bring the highly avoided Joe Calzaghe into consideration just because I am one of his biggest fans, but a boxing fan first, that right there is telling that my theory here with Taylor is correct when the biggest defence in Taylor's area is that 'he was competitive with Wright and Hopkins and that Calzaghe's never fought anyone that good'.

The hilarious part is that Taylor would not even defeat a peak Robin Reid, he'd most definitley get KOed there as well seeing as Hopkins had him on queer street and Winky stunned him. Nobody who cannot handle even an ounce of pressure from tiny LMW's, all the while being a huge MW is going to do a damn thing to anyone in a peak Reid's class.

So let's keep downplaying Calzaghe's opposition because there is no other defence in Taylor's direction, meaning that even if you think Calzaghe is shit(which I don't care, it doesn't effect anything involving this situation), I am correct about Jermain Taylor and his disgraceful run to the sport of boxing.

It'll be 'bye bye' to Jermain Taylor soon enough, but everyone's going to act like they saw it coming.:lol:

Read above. No talk of Calzaghe's opponents in that one.

[Amsterdam]

First off, I'm glad I get a nice little debate with another educated poster. Its been a little while. Let's do the damn thing.

And I'm glad to debate it in civil fashion, no surprise that you aren't taking this stuff personally like others do.:yep




I don't know that Taylor's jab would not have been dominant enough of a factor in that bout. While Eubank certainly had the power to possibly stop Taylor, the only time Taylor has ever shown signs of being hurt was after Picture perfect right hands from Hopkins, and that power of Hopkins also carried all the way up to LHW, as displayed against Tarver. I feel this one would have went the distance, and at that point in Eubank's career it would have been close IMHO. I havent watched that bout in a long long time though and I could be underestimating Eubank at that point in his career. This much I will admit.


Eubank's right hand is much more powerful than Hopkins' in my opinion, the Tarver win is very decieving.

I'll put it this way, Eubank was in great shape, he had been training for months despite signing this fight on short notice, he shaved off the excess muscle that was giving him stamina issue's in the past and was back near his peak physique and was able to go 12 rounds no problem with a monsterous young Calzaghe. I think this fight was the final nail in Eubank's career though, he took a nasty beating here, but he was game enough to rip Calzaghe with right hands plenty of times, shots that Taylor could not eat and if Calzaghe wasn't so fast, it would have been easy for Eubank to take control, Taylor is not that fast and would be driven back by Chris Eubank and KOed, I PROMISE you this and you know how good I am at picking fights.


See, I differ in opinion here. I don't think that anyone can simply go in and outwork Hopkin simply by workrate, especially now at LHW where Bernard looks much more comfortable. He was killing himself at MW, and that to me was the reason that he couldnt put up enough of a workrate against Taylor to win convincingly, though I dont personally feel that Hopkins deserved a loss in either bout. I had Hopkins winning one and a draw in another. Winky had been throwing tons of punches in his last few bouts, but you simply cant do that against Bernard because he is far to adept a counter puncher and the more you throw, the more you get hit. I think its a misconception that you are going to beat even the current Hopkins simply by throwing a bunch. Both Calzaghe and Dawson have been dropped by far less powerful punchers and punches than Hopkins right hand, which he would land a bunch against both Calzaghe and Dawson.


Firstly, it's not just outworking him, it's 'skillfully' outworking him and JC is one of the most skilled fighters in the sport bar none, whether people want to believe it or not.

Secondly, Dawson has been dropped by lesser shots, but not Calzaghe. I presume you are referring to Mitchells right hand? That was a temple shot that landed perfectly and Mitchell WAS a 1 punch KO go, this was his reputation and he surely showed it in sparking Frankie Randall and a prime Manny Siaca, both of whom had great chins. Hopkins is by no means a power hitter, he's just sharply accurate, a true power punching MW would have blown out Tito in a few rounds the way Hopkins was brutalising him... think about that, Hopkins has good break you down power, not 1 punch.

Dawson is just way too damn much at this point and the Wright and Tarver wins overestimate Hopkins due to their big 'names'.


Again, Hopkins conservative if you fight at his pace. Turn up the volume and youre gonna still eat a bunch of leather. Bika would trouble Taylor much in the same fashion that Ouma did, perhaps even more competitive, but Ouma did not trouble JT, he just survived. He was beaten in damn near every round.


Hopkins just can't fire off like he could at his peak, this is evident.

And Bika KO's Taylor, Taylor's chin is shit and it's going to be exposed in clear with Pavlik. Taylor is nothing against guys his size who can hit.


And Taylor would have fought a bit different if Winky did have the power. This is the fight that I do score for Taylor, because he hit Winky cleanly a lot more than anyone wants to give him credit for, and the evidence is in Winky's face, and his refusal of a rematch even when Taylor met all of his demands, as ludicrous as they became.


Taylor would have been KOed because he can't handle pressure, nobody just sits on the ropes and eats shots like that if they could control the fight, which he couldn't at times.

And he did provide a challenge to Wright, but Wright is a great LMW, who lack punching power and Taylor is a big well schooled MW, you'd expect him to be competitive. I feel Abraham and Pavlik both would stop Winky at this point and I feel that Winky at MW and higher is overrated on what he can do, this is because of the name and reputation, he's 35 and it's near the end of his run anyway, but we'll see.


Folded how? By winning every single round?


His game plan folded, he succombed to the pressure, he also lost about 4 rounds.


Thats cool. It is all relative because they are at the head of their divisions all of 8 pounds away from one another.


Technically they are the same size, Taylor is a SMW who parades at MW and that's good for him that he's able to make the weight, so comparisons are fine if you'd like to compare them realistically, but they are two different classes of fighter, even if one doesn't have two P4P names on his resume.


You criticize Hopkins of fighting at a measured pace, when Kessler is quite conservative himself, although he does pump that jab out there quite a bit. Pavlik does one thing that Kessler doesnt, and thats throw a TON of leather. At Joe's advanced age, and with his tendancy to throw a ton of punches himself, a measured pace is a dangerous way to fight him, and given how Bika looked against him, even you have to acknowledge that Pavlik might pose some serious problems for Joe at this point in his career. I feel that Kessler might be too patient, although I feel both would be very tough battles for the Italian Dragon.


Kessler is constantly throwing and controlling, and he's not conservative like Hopkins, he showed in multiple scenerio's that he'll trade bombs if it's necessary.

Pavlik's not on this level and the Bika fight was a horrible version of Calzaghe.

I feel Kessler loses badly, but that's a testament of Joe's class, Pavlik would get trashes like Lacy did with his lack of defence... hell, 2005 Lacy would have beaten Pavlik also because Pavlik could not push Lacy around and he'll eat Lacy's best in a war and eventually grind down.


Not with technique, but as far as how much trouble they would bring to Calzaghe, I feel they are comparable.


That's fair I guess, but you're overrating Pavlik if you think he has a better chance than a guy with a similiar style, but much more refined in every area, even comparable power.


To be determined. I know we'll meet in the middle somewhere.


That's fine also, I know that I am 'intense', but it's boring if everyone is the same.

[nervousxtian]

Now Robin Reid beats Taylor?

The sad thing is, no matter what happens in the Pavlik fight, Jermaine has a better resume than Joe Calzaghe.

I'm not so sure Joe Calzaghe beats Jermaine Taylor these days, and I'm certain Hopkins beats Joe, he'd get countered punched to death.

I also like how you can excuse the Bika fight for Joe, but can't excuse the same things for Taylor.. wait.. because in the end, we already know what you are.. and that's a hypocrite.

Also, I'm not sure on your bullshit crap on stuff like 05 Lacy beats Pavlik.. really? How the fuck do you know, wait you don't, it just makes your argument look better.

We know you want to blow Joe Calzaghe, now shut the fuck up.

[China_hand_Joe]

The sad thing is, no matter what happens in the Pavlik fight, Jermaine has a better resume than Joe Calzaghe.

I'm not so sure Joe Calzaghe beats Jermaine Taylor these days, and I'm certain Hopkins beats Joe, he'd get countered punched to death.

No, Taylor's resume has a list of bigger name fighters, not better fighters. It is full of old and smaller fighters, kind of like Hopkins' flimsy resume.

A Calzaghe shut-out is more likely than any kind of Hopkins win these days.

[nervousxtian]

No, Taylor's resume has a list of bigger name fighters, not better fighters. It is full of old and smaller fighters, kind of like Hopkins' flimsy resume.

A Calzaghe shut-out is more likely than any kind of Hopkins win these days.

I'd pick Bernard over just about anyone under 175.

He's crafty, tough, dirty, and knows the game better than damn there anyone.

His resume isn't that great, but you don't defend your title that many times by not being good, ala Joe Calzaghe.

Bernard's legacy is only hurt from his division being weak for so long, which isn't his fault, nor was it Roy Jones fault for his division being weak.

I learned a long time ago, don't bet against Bernard.

[Amsterdam]

Now Robin Reid beats Taylor?

The sad thing is, no matter what happens in the Pavlik fight, Jermaine has a better resume than Joe Calzaghe.

I'm not so sure Joe Calzaghe beats Jermaine Taylor these days, and I'm certain Hopkins beats Joe, he'd get countered punched to death.

I also like how you can excuse the Bika fight for Joe, but can't excuse the same things for Taylor.. wait.. because in the end, we already know what you are.. and that's a hypocrite.

Also, I'm not sure on your bullshit crap on stuff like 05 Lacy beats Pavlik.. really? How the fuck do you know, wait you don't, it just makes your argument look better.

We know you want to blow Joe Calzaghe, now shut the fuck up.

How do we know? Because it's not hard to dissect styles, ability and other factors and project a winner, it's very easy actually.

Bika is a more dangerous opponent than Ouma and you can't deny that. And yes, Reid defeats the overrated Taylor peak/peak, by KO no less.

If he gets blown out by Pavlik it confirms all of this, resume included, if you want to keep believing that being competitive with an older Hopkins and Wright gives you a superior resume to what Calzaghe has done, then only to be destroyed by an average, but effective man of the same size then keep doing, keep playing ignorant and keep believing everything you're fed.

Hopkins will not defeat a younger, fresher 168-175 pounder at THIS POINT in his career, he is truly showing his age and it's astonishing that only a few see this.

But if Hopkins-Calzaghe happens, do you want to bet on it? You're certain that Hopkins wins, how about a large money bet? I am serious.

[China_hand_Joe]

I'd pick Bernard over just about anyone under 175.

He's crafty, tough, dirty, and knows the game better than damn there anyone.

His resume isn't that great, but you don't defend your title that many times by not being good, ala Joe Calzaghe.

Bernard's legacy is only hurt from his division being weak for so long, which isn't his fault, nor was it Roy Jones fault for his division being weak.

I learned a long time ago, don't bet against Bernard.Hopkins is 42. He cannot compete with an elite fighter like Calzaghe now. The same will apply to Calzaghe within the next 6-36 months when he declines. Hopkins is so much slower than he was against Johnson.

[Mrboogie23]

I'm not sure why you're going so far out of your way to try and discredit Taylor. Its baffling really.

He's not overrated or overhyped. It appears that most people hate him and want him to lose. As far as Ouma is concerned he's a solid fighter and Taylor won pretty much every round. People dont always get the KO. People dont like the way Taylor wins. Thats understandable but thats no reason to hate him, he still steps up every time.

I also completely disagree with you when you're trying to discredit his resume. Its an impressive resume. I dont care how you spin it.

[maciek4]

I am not a Taylor fan and will be rooting for Pavlik but I also dont understand the hate for him. Spinks and Ouma despite being small are still very tough opponents and not easy to knock out. The fact that he was competitive with Hopkins and(those fights could have gone either way) shows you how good he is. Hopkins after those loses went on to easily defeat Tarver and Wright.

[Amsterdam]

I'm not sure why you're going so far out of your way to try and discredit Taylor. Its baffling really.

Because he's a fraud who has come around at the right time and has enjoyed a red carpet ride with big promotion behind it. It annoys me that people regard him well just for competing with 2 P4P fighters that are for surely ranked, but of the type that is on their way out.

It also annoys me that being competitive with Wright and Hopkins garners more respect in the boxing world than thrashing Lacy and soon to be Kessler to the fullest, when both are young, hungry top class.

'But who is Kessler?'. Someone who JT would not a win a ROUND against, someone who the older Hopkins would lose extremely wide too and someone that Winky would get sparked out in 5-6 against. But this is going to garner less credit.

..Sorry to go back to JC, but he was shoved in my face as an example in Taylor's defence, so I am throwing him back out there.


He's not overrated or overhyped. It appears that most people hate him and want him to lose. As far as Ouma is concerned he's a solid fighter and Taylor won pretty much every round. People dont always get the KO. People dont like the way Taylor wins. Thats understandable but thats no reason to hate him, he still steps up every time.


Ouma is a second tier 154 who's been hurt and down, not to mention TKO'd against 154 competition, it was absurd for Taylor not to get the KO with what he was landing and even more absurd for him to fall into Ouma's pressure.

He's stepped up to Pavlik and it'll be his last, because it's going to end brutally and early and will put things well into perspective. Then everyone will be saying they knew it all along and that he wasn't ever truly a top P4P fighter.:lol:

Too bad, I've taken names.:yep


I also completely disagree with you when you're trying to discredit his resume. Its an impressive resume. I dont care how you spin it.


But you see Boogie, I don't judge on 'reputation' or 'name', I judge on what I observe and what I see. I don't know why you doubt me, when I've been correct about these types of things time and time again, I think I've called out every overrated fighter in the last two years to perfection and everyone of them got starched.

[aliwasthegreatest]

Now where this get crazy is Ouma's entire reputation is build on his performance against Taylor. He gets a lot of credit for it.

But Taylor also gets credit for beating Ouma.

In effect Taylor is getting credit for beating Ouma, because Ouma lost to him.

Do you see how the American Boxing Media work -questionmark-




If you are Joe Calzaghe though, nobody you have ever beat is good because Joe Calzaghe has humiliated them.

Joe Calzaghe will never get credit for beating any fighter Joe Calzaghe has beaten, ever.

actually Ouma was highly touted back when Wright was ruling 154. then lost to Karmazin and lost alot of steam. thats why Taylor gets credit for the win. not some warped version of marketing you've come up with

[kirk]

But who thinkss Ouma is great? i dont think anybody has claimed that.... he is what he is, a very good fighter...

After he beats Mora... i take him to rule 154.


i dont think hes overated because i dont think anyone rates him more then he is... which is a good fighter.

[IntentionalButt]

Ams, maybe I missed something (I usually try to ignore Taylor fanboy posts, that might be why); I don't think I've heard anybody really overrate Ouma. He's certainly not going to be mistaken for an incredibly slick fighter, nor a very focused one, and he's definitely not a hard hitter. He's a guy with a real good chin and some guts, who leans toward high output. That's it. A formula that's enough to beat some B-levellers, and enough to slightly frustrate (in losing efforts) some A-level fighters. He lost to the vastly overrated B-level paper champ Taylor primarily because of the size differential and the fact that he doesn't have the right kind of style to overcome the physicality of a much bigger opponent. Were they naturally built to fight in the same weightclass (rather than at least two apart) Ouma would overwhelm and possibly even stop Taylor, who has yet to prove a chin at the world-class level - 36 rounds with murderous punchers Bernard and Winky notwithstanding. :yep

[Mrboogie23]

Because he's a fraud who has come around at the right time and has enjoyed a red carpet ride with big promotion behind it. It annoys me that people regard him well just for competing with 2 P4P fighters that are for surely ranked, but of the type that is on their way out.

It also annoys me that being competitive with Wright and Hopkins garners more respect in the boxing world than thrashing Lacy and soon to be Kessler to the fullest, when both are young, hungry top class.

'But who is Kessler?'. Someone who JT would not a win a ROUND against, someone who the older Hopkins would lose extremely wide too and someone that Winky would get sparked out in 5-6 against. But this is going to garner less credit.

..Sorry to go back to JC, but he was shoved in my face as an example in Taylor's defence, so I am throwing him back out there.



Ouma is a second tier 154 who's been hurt and down, not to mention TKO'd against 154 competition, it was absurd for Taylor not to get the KO with what he was landing and even more absurd for him to fall into Ouma's pressure.

He's stepped up to Pavlik and it'll be his last, because it's going to end brutally and early and will put things well into perspective. Then everyone will be saying they knew it all along and that he wasn't ever truly a top P4P fighter.:lol:

Too bad, I've taken names.:yep



But you see Boogie, I don't judge on 'reputation' or 'name', I judge on what I observe and what I see. I don't know why you doubt me, when I've been correct about these types of things time and time again, I think I've called out every overrated fighter in the last two years to perfection and everyone of them got starched.


We've talked about this a bit over the past week or so and you know that I dont disagree with some of the questions about JT. My problem is with people who insist on hating him for no legitimate reason. My whole point is that the guy deserves some respect because he's willing to fight anyone at anytime, regardless of what judges say, HBO says, fight fans etc. He is willing to fight the best he can.

That deserves respect. I always get the feeling that people hate him because he hasnt won his fights in the fashion they feel he should. I can understand people getting frustrated with that also but again, he's one of those that is always willing to do better and he'll admit as much. Thats why I'm a fan of the guy. He's humble, willing to learn and improve and more then willing to fight anyone out there. I am still disagree that resumes dont matter. They do. I understand your point about judging based on ability style etc. I do the same thing, but resume has merit.

Its also something to be looked at. I think you're partly mad at taylor because of the supposed hype he received right away, and the fact that youre a fan of Calzaghe and he's been around forever and received little to no hype. Thats fine but theres no reason for all the hate Taylor receives.

As far as Taylor losing his fight with Pavlik, its also possible. Like I've told you before, I'm not too confident in Taylors chin and Pavlik can crack but I can also see Pavlik walking in and pressuring and eating hard jabs all night.

[Amsterdam]

We've talked about this a bit over the past week or so and you know that I dont disagree with some of the questions about JT. My problem is with people who insist on hating him for no legitimate reason. My whole point is that the guy deserves some respect because he's willing to fight anyone at anytime, regardless of what judges say, HBO says, fight fans etc. He is willing to fight the best he can.

That deserves respect. I always get the feeling that people hate him because he hasnt won his fights in the fashion they feel he should. I can understand people getting frustrated with that also but again, he's one of those that is always willing to do better and he'll admit as much. Thats why I'm a fan of the guy. He's humble, willing to learn and improve and more then willing to fight anyone out there. I am still disagree that resumes dont matter. They do. I understand your point about judging based on ability style etc. I do the same thing, but resume has merit.

Its also something to be looked at. I think you're partly mad at taylor because of the supposed hype he received right away, and the fact that youre a fan of Calzaghe and he's been around forever and received little to no hype. Thats fine but theres no reason for all the hate Taylor receives.

As far as Taylor losing his fight with Pavlik, its also possible. Like I've told you before, I'm not too confident in Taylors chin and Pavlik can crack but I can also see Pavlik walking in and pressuring and eating hard jabs all night.

Don't get me wrong, resume's MATTER greatly. What I meant was that some resume's are overrated do to big name factors and other are underrated due to the majority of western fans knowing little about the opponents.

Calzaghe's resume is overall very good for example, specifically on how he won the majority of them also, his resume right now is on par or better than Kostya Tszyu, who is now regarded as a legendary fighter and I agree with that. People make comments like being competitive with Hopkins and Wright at this point blows away Calzaghe's resume... that's ridiculous.

Let's step it up a notch though, Kessler's resume is also comparable if you really want to dig deep and he lacks a true big name at the moment, but if Kessler defeats Calzaghe, he'll recieve credit and will be ranked P4P of course, but it still will not have the same effect as HBO hype boy getting a gift over Hopkins and how people were high on Taylor at that point(because they overestimate what an older Hopkins can currently do), but it's since fizzled out with the Wright performance and the two horrible performances over Spinks and Ouma.

This is all injustice to me. Guys like Kessler don't struggle with B level guys coming up from the lower weights, I am sorry. He never will also, as he's cleaned out the B level in his OWN weight class and has only lost 5 or 6 rounds total, now THATS impressive, but the winner of Kessler-Calzaghe is going to be given credit, but not the type that is deserved.

I hope you understand what I mean now when I say 'overrated resume' and that 'set resume's' and 'set circles' are looking very shitty right now.

I'll give you another example -

Paul Briggs would have pasted Tarver, but Tarver chose the big name money fights(most people would), he dropped the titles to face the bigger names instead of the big threat. But the problem with Tarver being considered the best LHW is that he didn't face a guy who could have most likely pasted his ass.

In that regard, Adamek vs. Briggs meant more to me than Tarver vs. Jones 3, but which one brought more regard?:yep

[Guru_Too_You]

Amsterdam, let me get my morning coffee in me, and we'll continue.

[nervousxtian]

Waiting for the that reply Guru.

Amsterdam, your probably is that you hold your opinion of who would destroy whom as gospel, when it's not fact, and you can't prove it.

You bring up this hypothetical fights, but the truth is, you have no damn clue who'd win.

Paul Briggs would of pasted Tarver? Yeah, whatever, that's based on nothing but your tossing names out to make Taylor look bad, but who gives a fuck, Tarver fights 2 classes above Taylor.

Let's talk about Middleweights, since that is the division he is currently and has fought in recently.

You gonna start talking shit how Israel Vasquez ain't shit because he doesn't fight Pacman? Same shit.

You can say Taylor is a Super Middle fighting at Middle, but that's bullshit, he makes the weight, then he's a MW. If Calzaghe could make 160, he'd be a middleweight as well.

Taylor uses the same scale everyone else at that weight class uses.

[Guru_Too_You]

Waiting for the that reply Guru.

Amsterdam, your probably is that you hold your opinion of who would destroy whom as gospel, when it's not fact, and you can't prove it.

You bring up this hypothetical fights, but the truth is, you have no damn clue who'd win.

Paul Briggs would of pasted Tarver? Yeah, whatever, that's based on nothing but your tossing names out to make Taylor look bad, but who gives a fuck, Tarver fights 2 classes above Taylor.

Let's talk about Middleweights, since that is the division he is currently and has fought in recently.

You gonna start talking shit how Israel Vasquez ain't shit because he doesn't fight Pacman? Same shit.

You can say Taylor is a Super Middle fighting at Middle, but that's bullshit, he makes the weight, then he's a MW. If Calzaghe could make 160, he'd be a middleweight as well.

Taylor uses the same scale everyone else at that weight class uses.

Shit forgot all about this one.

Have to happen when I get home from work.

LOL, not the proper start to a Friday evening thats for sure.

[Amsterdam]

Waiting for the that reply Guru.

Amsterdam, your probably is that you hold your opinion of who would destroy whom as gospel, when it's not fact, and you can't prove it.

You bring up this hypothetical fights, but the truth is, you have no damn clue who'd win.


I come here to discuss boxing, I love boxing, I have fought amatuer and continue to train in boxing and the art of boxing, as well as the sport is one of my biggest passions, far more than the average fan.

I'm not a nuthugger, I'm not a tool, I'm also not an expert, but I give it my best shot and I don't feel I'm biased, maybe you don't see the immense credit that I give where it is due.

I have a great 'clue' of who is going to win in big fights always, the clue may not always be right, but when you have a 75% success rate, to the point where betting on this sport brings you extra income on a very consistent basis, then you start to have a feel where you can truly predict what's going to happen and I can do so 'fairly well'. I don't play ignorant with this sport, I can analyse styles, ability, intangibles and project a winner and most of the time I am correct, but not only correct, but perfectly on target.

This is why I speak like an authority on these types of things, but I don't seek to insult other posters, I don't seek to come off as smug, I just like talking about boxing and I cannot help if you recieve it as smug, especially when I feel that I am 'onto something' and I wish to share it with everyone else so we all learn something together... likewise when I appreciate when someone enlightens me to something.

I just cannot stand the close mindedness with this sport and it's ratings and Jermain Taylor is a prime example.


Paul Briggs would of pasted Tarver? Yeah, whatever, that's based on nothing but your tossing names out to make Taylor look bad, but who gives a fuck, Tarver fights 2 classes above Taylor.


Tarver was just an example of an 'overrated name', who fought within a circle of other 'name' fighters, staying away from true danger, like a young and hunry Paul Briggs.


Let's talk about Middleweights, since that is the division he is currently and has fought in recently.


Let's do.


You gonna start talking shit how Israel Vasquez ain't shit because he doesn't fight Pacman? Same shit.


This is not even close, you are really projecting your ignorance well and I normally would not call someone on this harschly, but you have sought to personally insult me because you don't agree with my analysis'.


You can say Taylor is a Super Middle fighting at Middle, but that's bullshit, he makes the weight, then he's a MW. If Calzaghe could make 160, he'd be a middleweight as well.


I thought I clearly said that 'Taylor is a SMW who is able to fight down at MW, which is good for him'. Taylor weighs in at 175 come fight night, Calzaghe weighs 175 come fight night, they are the same size roughly, the comparison of MW's-SMW's is as close as it gets.


Taylor uses the same scale everyone else at that weight class uses.


What does making weight have to do with comparable size? DLH made 130 early in his career, are you telling me he was not a 140 who was able to make 130 at that time?

[Guru_Too_You]

I come here to discuss boxing, I love boxing, I have fought amatuer and continue to train in boxing and the art of boxing, as well as the sport is one of my biggest passions, far more than the average fan.

I'm not a nuthugger, I'm not a tool, I'm also not an expert, but I give it my best shot and I don't feel I'm biased, maybe you don't see the immense credit that I give where it is due.

I have a great 'clue' of who is going to win in big fights always, the clue may not always be right, but when you have a 75% success rate, to the point where betting on this sport brings you extra income on a very consistent basis, then you start to have a feel where you can truly predict what's going to happen and I can do so 'fairly well'. I don't play ignorant with this sport, I can analyse styles, ability, intangibles and project a winner and most of the time I am correct, but not only correct, but perfectly on target.

This is why I speak like an authority on these types of things, but I don't seek to insult other posters, I don't seek to come off as smug, I just like talking about boxing and I cannot help if you recieve it as smug, especially when I feel that I am 'onto something' and I wish to share it with everyone else so we all learn something together... likewise when I appreciate when someone enlightens me to something.


I concur with the above.

Get 'em Amsterdam.

[Amsterdam]

Shit forgot all about this one.

Have to happen when I get home from work.

LOL, not the proper start to a Friday evening thats for sure.

What do you think of Byron Mitchell vs. Taylor?

Mitchell was robbed vs. Ottke, was able to press him decent late despite Ottke's running. Mitchell KOed a prime Manny Siaca, KOed Frankie Liles, who is a top 15 at SMW.

Mitchell would land his KO shots on Taylor, would impose his size.

See what I mean Guru? This is a stylistic comparison to where Byron Mitchell legitimately has a chance to KO Jermain Taylor and all I am trying to do here is legitimize that the SMW division is FAR superior to the current MW division.

But I'll be fair, Mitchell doesn't beat Abraham(stylistic nastyness), but he has a decent chance vs. Pavlik due to comparable size.

And then looking back, who in the hell would destroy Mitchell like Calzaghe did? When that happened Americans acted like Mitchell was just a crap fighter, when he actually had a very solid resume for the division at the time.

So then fucking Taylor scrapes by tiny Spinks and is of course criticised, but people write it off as 'any MW would look bad vs. Spinks'. I hate this shit so much and I can stop using Calzaghe as the example and use any underrated SMW in comparison to the very shallow MW division now, or I can use other underrated fighters who get no credit.

[Guru_Too_You]

What do you think of Byron Mitchell vs. Taylor?

Mitchell was robbed vs. Ottke, was able to press him decent late despite Ottke's running. Mitchell KOed a prime Manny Siaca, KOed Frankie Liles, who is a top 15 at SMW.

Mitchell would land his KO shots on Taylor, would impose his size.

See what I mean Guru? This is a stylistic comparison to where Byron Mitchell legitimately has a chance to KO Jermain Taylor and all I am trying to do here is legitimize that the SMW division is FAR superior to the current MW division.

But I'll be fair, Mitchell doesn't beat Abraham(stylistic nastyness), but he has a decent chance vs. Pavlik due to comparable size.

And then looking back, who in the hell would destroy Mitchell like Calzaghe did? When that happened Americans acted like Mitchell was just a crap fighter, when he actually had a very solid resume for the division at the time.

So then fucking Taylor scrapes by tiny Spinks and is of course criticised, but people write it off as 'any MW would look bad vs. Spinks'. I hate this shit so much and I can stop using Calzaghe as the example and use any underrated SMW in comparison to the very shallow MW division now, or I can use other underrated fighters who get no credit.

First, some one really has to knock Taylor out. He hasnt even been of his feet yet. Getting shook up is one thing, getting stopped or knocked unconscious is an entirely different thing.

The Pavlik bout for me will answer a ton of questions about Taylor. If he can stand up to Pavlik and hand him an ass whooping, then to me, it legitimizes the entire run that Taylor has had.

While at this point in time you pick Calz over Hopkins and Winky, do you think that he would look good in beating them? Do you feel that he would stop them?

Pointing out that big punchers at SMW would starch Taylor only shows that you feel he will be easily knocked out. That in no way shows that the SMW division is far superior to the MW division. In fact, I feel the divisions are quite comparable at the elite level in current talent if you go P4P.

[Amsterdam]

First, some one really has to knock Taylor out. He hasnt even been of his feet yet. Getting shook up is one thing, getting stopped or knocked unconscious is an entirely different thing.


He's about to get served a nice KO loss.


The Pavlik bout for me will answer a ton of questions about Taylor. If he can stand up to Pavlik and hand him an ass whooping, then to me, it legitimizes the entire run that Taylor has had.


Well that isn't going to happen mate.


While at this point in time you pick Calz over Hopkins and Winky, do you think that he would look good in beating them? Do you feel that he would stop them?


He's going to look great in beating Kessler, he'd especially look great in beating Wright and would stop Wright, but that's a size and styles thing that swings terribly against Wright as Winky's a LMW and lateral movement fucks him up, he'd get annihilated in there with Joe.

I think that 'at this point' in Hopkins' career, he'd be shutout by Calzaghe. People don't like to hear that because Hopkins is such an icon and a great story, who isn't impressed by someone his age competing? But that means little against a guy like Calzaghe who's bringing the ferocious workrate, but behind a set of skills and experience that rivals the best.


Pointing out that big punchers at SMW would starch Taylor only shows that you feel he will be easily knocked out. That in no way shows that the SMW division is far superior to the MW division. In fact, I feel the divisions are quite comparable at the elite level in current talent if you go P4P.


I pointed that out that Mitchell would have had a great shot vs. Pavlik, would have lost to Abraham, but would have sparked Taylor. Byron Mitchell was a top 5 at SMW in the early 2000's, one that Calzaghe recieves little credit for obliterating by the way, something that never happened as every top class fighter Mitchell fought, he was competitive with... anyway...

And what I mean by that is that Mitchell is not on the current level of Kessler, Bute, Froch etc.

I don't see the guys at MW beating those 3, much less Calzaghe, who's the reigning king.

I'm a big fan of SMW - Kessler, Bute, Lacy - all of them, I like all of them, and I mean that truly. But I like them because they are all 'quality' around the general size...

Unlike MW, where you have a hype job as the king, two solid but not great fighters in Abraham and Pavlik and then a mystery in Miranda as the top class, as well as Wright, who's on his last legs.

Just my observation...

[Guru_Too_You]

Like I said, this bout will serve a lot of answers. If he gets knocked out, then it shows he was in the right place at the right time with Hopkins and Winky.

I do disagree regarding Calz-BHop. I still think this would be a competitive fight, but not for much longer, because Bernard seems to be aging faster than Calzaghe right now.

How do you account for Joe's performance against Bika?

I think that Joe, like Bernard, was in a division largely void of talent, and while Mitchell may have been a top 5 SMW, I was NEVER impressed with him, or many inhabitants of the division, berring Calzaghe and of late Kessler.

I was on the Lacy hype train myself as well, but definitely thought he got the benefit of a quick stoppage against Vanderpool, some bogus help against Reid and was hurt badly against Sheika in their bout. I cant believe how blind I was.

Still, I think that the fringe guys at SMW are overrated. Kessler is the goods, and even he may not stand a chance against Calzaghe. Its the same thing that happened during Hopkins reign. The real challenges were few and far between. Mundine has never impressed me, Lacy shouldnt have as much as he did. Andrade's in the mold of a Margarito, and to be honest I havent seen enough of Bute Froch and Inkin to comment properly regarding them.

Still, I would have to give the slight edge to SMW in terms of talent, I will give you that. Abraham, Pavlik and Taylor are all good fighters, Miranda being the brawler, Duddy being the up and coming challenger. Sturm is decent but after those 6 fighters there is a bigger drop off than in SMW after 6.

[Amsterdam]

Like I said, this bout will serve a lot of answers. If he gets knocked out, then it shows he was in the right place at the right time with Hopkins and Winky.

I do disagree regarding Calz-BHop. I still think this would be a competitive fight, but not for much longer, because Bernard seems to be aging faster than Calzaghe right now.


You admitted below that the Lacy train blinded you a bit. B-hop at 42 and competing is blinding for some in my opinion, he's really eroded and it hasn't shown it's ugly head because he's not fought a younger, fresher SMW-LHW that can deal with his experience. Wright's old too and Tarver is about at journeyman level at this point.


How do you account for Joe's performance against Bika?


Multiple things. Off night for one and little preparation(this is a problem with JC), he owned Bika first two rounds and then Bika went into intense amounts of excessive holding to stay in the fight and JC wasn't conditioned enough to out wrestle him. In my opinion, Bika should have been DQ'd, it was bad, John Ruiz like.


I think that Joe, like Bernard, was in a division largely void of talent, and while Mitchell may have been a top 5 SMW, I was NEVER impressed with him, or many inhabitants of the division, berring Calzaghe and of late Kessler.


Byron Mitchell was a B level guy, he wasn't impressive. Just a slow, solid boxer-puncher with 1 punch KO power. I'm saying Calzaghe dealt with him extremely well and even ate a massive temple shot and was up at 3. Then I provided logic that the MW's currently even out to about Byron Mitchells level, I think that's accurate.


I was on the Lacy hype train myself as well, but definitely thought he got the benefit of a quick stoppage against Vanderpool, some bogus help against Reid and was hurt badly against Sheika in their bout. I cant believe how blind I was.


Lacy is a good fighter, he was hurt against Sheika sure, but it's not like Sheika can't hit either. Lacy's issue's were trying to load up and finish a guy too quickly and this lead to problems. But he was getting better and better, you'd expect at around 12-16 fights that he'd be flawed, the Reid win was an exclamation of where he was at, biased ref or not, he was owning Reid.


Still, I think that the fringe guys at SMW are overrated. Kessler is the goods, and even he may not stand a chance against Calzaghe. Its the same thing that happened during Hopkins reign. The real challenges were few and far between. Mundine has never impressed me, Lacy shouldnt have as much as he did. Andrade's in the mold of a Margarito, and to be honest I havent seen enough of Bute Froch and Inkin to comment properly regarding them.


Kessler is phenominal. Mundine is again not impressive per say, but he's better than the guys at MW for sure, look what he did to fucking Soloman, who Wright struggled with. Bute is very solid, Froch is a nutter but one of those psycho fighters with power and speed.

Andrade is B level, but all I stated that he'd have a damn good chance at slaughtering the MW's due to his pressure and their lack of pedigree like the SMW-LHW's have. Kessler dealt with Andrade in a beautiful shutout, like Calzaghe did Lacy, this is quality man.

Taylor's ugly fight with a tiny Ouma can't compare to Kessler's punishing shutout of a superior larger man. It's absurd for Taylor to be ranked higher P4P than Kessler after his performances against Ouma and Spinks.


Still, I would have to give the slight edge to SMW in terms of talent, I will give you that. Abraham, Pavlik and Taylor are all good fighters, Miranda being the brawler, Duddy being the up and coming challenger. Sturm is decent but after those 6 fighters there is a bigger drop off than in SMW after 6.


I give a big edge to SMW, but it's also a division that I study deeper than you do and that's fine. I really watch the Euro and World scene, but the flipside is that my favourite fighters have generally been American and I hate euro-nut huggers.

I just go for the fighters and call it as I see them.

[nervousxtian]

You write off the Bika fight so quickly, but can't forgive Taylor for the Spinks fight, and pretend like the Ouma fight was close, it wasn't.

Hops is old, but Calzaghe himself has said he doesn't have many fights left in him. Calzaghe isn't and hasn't looked great since the Lacy fight, and really for most that is the fight that legitimized him, but the honest truth is that Calzaghe was always better than most gave him credit for, and Lacy wasn't as good as he was made out to be.

I'm a Calzaghe fan, I like his fights, and I'd actually rather watch him than Taylor, but I appreciate what both have done, you can't.

Your smugness comes from trying to state facts that are nothing more than your opinions.

You're a smart guy, I can tell that. You just let hatred for fighters overcome you and you lose your senses.

You want so badly for Taylor to get starched so you and Zakman can cheer about his chin, it really comes down to nothing more than this.

It's just like your hatred for Khan, and Litzau. It's stupid and immature, and in the end, it weakens your other arguments where you're actually talking sense, and that's sad.

[Lance_Uppercut]

Ouma overrated? Last I saw, he wasn't seen as some super-world beating boxer, top P4P fighter, or great anything. If he's overrated, it's by fans on this site, and probably NOT as overrated as you and CJH's overrate Joe C. Give it a rest dude...you're turning into Jack Prescott Jr...

[China_hand_Joe]

You write off the Bika fight so quickly, but can't forgive Taylor for the Spinks fight, and pretend like the Ouma fight was close, it wasn't.

Hops is old, but Calzaghe himself has said he doesn't have many fights left in him. Calzaghe isn't and hasn't looked great since the Lacy fight, and really for most that is the fight that legitimized him, but the honest truth is that Calzaghe was always better than most gave him credit for, and Lacy wasn't as good as he was made out to be.

I'm a Calzaghe fan, I like his fights, and I'd actually rather watch him than Taylor, but I appreciate what both have done, you can't.

Your smugness comes from trying to state facts that are nothing more than your opinions.

You're a smart guy, I can tell that. You just let hatred for fighters overcome you and you lose your senses.

You want so badly for Taylor to get starched so you and Zakman can cheer about his chin, it really comes down to nothing more than this.

It's just like your hatred for Khan, and Litzau. It's stupid and immature, and in the end, it weakens your other arguments where you're actually talking sense, and that's sad.The difference is Jermain Taylor has never had a single impressive night either at world level.

[Lance_Uppercut]

You write off the Bika fight so quickly, but can't forgive Taylor for the Spinks fight, and pretend like the Ouma fight was close, it wasn't.

Hops is old, but Calzaghe himself has said he doesn't have many fights left in him. Calzaghe isn't and hasn't looked great since the Lacy fight, and really for most that is the fight that legitimized him, but the honest truth is that Calzaghe was always better than most gave him credit for, and Lacy wasn't as good as he was made out to be.

I'm a Calzaghe fan, I like his fights, and I'd actually rather watch him than Taylor, but I appreciate what both have done, you can't.

Your smugness comes from trying to state facts that are nothing more than your opinions.

You're a smart guy, I can tell that. You just let hatred for fighters overcome you and you lose your senses.

You want so badly for Taylor to get starched so you and Zakman can cheer about his chin, it really comes down to nothing more than this.

It's just like your hatred for Khan, and Litzau. It's stupid and immature, and in the end, it weakens your other arguments where you're actually talking sense, and that's sad.

Well said. :thumbsup