The best super heavies. Can they be outboxed?

[Mendoza]

Over the years I have mentioned before that super heavyweights with skills such as Bowe, Lewis or Klitschko is the present and future of heavyweight boxing. If such a man is there, he's going to be the #1 or #2 man in his prime.

Height and size, when combined with speed, skills, and power are tough things to overcome. If the big guy learns how to either in-fight, or clinch, he's going to be very hard to beat.

While any heavyweight in theory can lose a fight on one big punch, or an injury one this is clear. Out boxing a super heavyweight with skills unless you are one yourself is not an option. It is best to look at the facts.

Riddick Bowe has 45 fights. Lennox Lewis had 44 fights. W. Klitschko has 55 fights to date , and V Klitschko has 39 fights to date. Combined they have 183 fights. How many of them were decision losses? Anyone care to guess?

The answer is just one. Bowe lost a razor thin decision to Holyfield ( A top 15 ATG for sure ) on a fight marred with a controversial 17-minute break, which may have allowed Holyfield to completely re-fuel and keep boxing and moving the way he was earlier to defeat Bowe.

Anyone care to discuss this topic?

[Addie]

Over the years I have mentioned before that that a super heavyweights with skills such as Bowe, Lewis or Klitschko is the present and future of heavyweight boxing.

Height and size, when combined with speed, skills, and power are very hard to beat in boxing. If the big guy learns how to either in-fight, or clinch, he's going to be very hard to beat.


While any heavyweight in theory can lose a fight on one big punch, one this is clear. Out boxing a super heavyweight with skills unless you are one yourself is not an option. It is best to look at the facts.

Riddick Bowe has 45 fights. Lennox Lewis had 44 fights. W. Klitschko has 55 fights to date , and V Klitschko has 39 fights to date. Combined they have 183 fights. How many of them were decision losses? Anyone care to guess?

The answer is just one and it was Bowe via razor thin decision on a fight marred with a controversial 17-minute break, which may have allowed Holyfield to completely re-fuel and keep boxing and moving the way he was earlier to defeat Bowe.

Anyone care to discuss this topic?

Lennox was getting ********* by Bruno, and the Mercer fight was incredibly close.

I disregard the Klitschko's because they should be dominating the joke of a Heavyweight division. Nothing special.

I think Bowe could be *********, and the decision loss to Holyfield was indicative of that. I also favor Ali to beat all of them on points, and he cannot really be considered a Super Heavy.

[SuzieQ49]

Well Wlad, Bowe, and Lennox sure. these 3 have some very good skills. but not vitali. I think he will be exposed soon enough once he faces a real boxer. vitalis skills arnt anywhere near the class of those 3. but I can see your point..lets see how it plays out.


- On a side note, 35 year old ray mercer very well may have outboxed lennox lewis, this doesnt look good for lennox. I think i scored it even. Also Frank Bruno was soundily outboxing lennox on my card before that left hook landed.

[Mendoza]

Lennox was getting ********* by Bruno, and the Mercer fight was incredibly close.

I disregard the Klitschko's because they should be dominating the joke of a Heavyweight division. Nothing special.

I think Bowe could be *********, and the decision loss to Holyfield was indicative of that. I also favor Ali to beat all of them on points, and he cannot really be considered a Super Heavy.

The numbers are 183 combined fights, and only 1 loss via decision. Amazing if you ask me. Regarding the Klitschko's, I don't think either has ever come close to losing on points, and I tend to doubt either will.

Lewis and Bowe fought in a better era to be sure, but after the final bell, their hands were raised in every case except for one.

[Mendoza]

Well Wlad, Bowe, and Lennox sure. these 3 have some very good skills. but not vitali. I think he will be exposed soon enough once he faces a real boxer. vitalis skills arnt anywhere near the class of those 3. but I can see your point..lets see how it plays out.

You were making some good posts. Let us not go there. History tells us Vitali has never been behind on the score cards after three rounds, and has the best rounds won to rounds lost ratio in the history of heavyweight champions. Vitali may not be everyone's cup of tea, but he can punch, is very active, is hard to catch clean, and can counter.

Vitali has faced a few good boxers in his career. Gomez, Donald, and Byrd come to mind. The scorecards in terms of rounds won to rounds lost were lopsided.

If you want my opinion, I think Wlad might be more prone to a point’s defeat simply because he sometimes risks less and is more prone to knockdown 10-8 rounds.

I had Lewis up 6-4 over Mercer.

[Addie]

You were making some good posts. Let us not go there. History tells us Vitali has never been behind on the score cards after three rounds, and has the best rounds won to rounds lost ratio in the history of heavyweight champions. Vitali may not be everyone's cup of tea, but he can punch, is very active, is hard to catch clean, and can counter.

Vitali has faced a few good boxers in his career. Gomez, Donald, and Byrd come to mind. The scorecards in terms of rounds won to rounds lost were lopsided.

If you want my opinion, I think Wlad might be more prone to a point’s defeat simply because he sometimes risks less and is more prone to knockdown 10-8 rounds.

I had Lewis up 6-4 over Mercer.

Only because Golota was an idiot.

[Mendoza]

Only because Golota was an idiot.

I would argue, that the Golota who fought Bowe was Goltoa at his best, and he was a super heavy with skills. 6'4" with an 80" reach.

[FromWithin]

I would argue, that Golota focused was a super heavy with skills. 6'4" with an 80" reach.

Golota is a super heavyweight.

[Sweet Pea]

Prime Bowe was the best of the bunch IMO.

[The Kurgan]

It's hard to tell whether it has to do with the Klitschko bros.'/Lewis's/Bowe's talent in relation to their peers or their size, but I think it's a fair conclusion to say that (under the modern rules) a tall skilled superheavyweight is all but impossible to outbox over 12 rounds except by another tall skilled superheavyweight. By "tall skilled superheavyweight", I'm referring to boxers between 6"3 and about 6"8. Vitali seems to be about as tall as a boxer can get before height starts to seriously damage mobility and Vitali is rather unusual in that he has short arms for his height which allow him to throw short punches well.

Now, I did add a qualifier in "under the modern rule-set". I'm a big believer in my "adaptation" approach to boxing history (first proposed during marathon debates with Revolver about his ridiculous 1960-paradigm theory) which applies the common-sense proposition that winners are those best suited to their sport to boxing history. As rules change, so the specifications of the best-suited boxers change.

Today, a successful heavyweight needs to be strong, have a good outside game and a long jab. On the other hand, attributes useful in the past (stamina over long fights, infighting ability, the ability to fight frequentely for years on end tc.) are no longer necessary to make it in the heavyweight division.

Lewis, Bowe and the Klitschkos all fit this model (though Bowe had a good inside game and about as good a level of stamina as a big man can have) making them the basic model for success today. Tyson and Holyfield are examples of other approaches that have had some success (Tyson: short boxers who can slip beneath taller boxers' punches; Holyfield: short boxers with mobility and skill who can out-hustle bigger me) but these kinds of boxers are no as suited to the modern game.

Could Lewis, Bowe or the Klitschkos be outboxed in the modern epoch? It's not inconceivable, but it would take a boxer better suited than Holyfield (who gave Lewis a very good fight in their second bout) which isn't on the horizon. Boxing is a brutal game and to succeed it in it one must be suited to it. As boxing is now, I think it's plain that Vitali and Wlad are the best suited to their time and place.

[jones1]

Interesting statistics. I think this also has to due with the fact that heavyweights have always lacked fast in and out fighters. This is the only other option to outbox one of these guys other than having the same reach advantages that they have. Evander Holyfield was one of the exceptions of being a quick in and out fighter who used his jab and footwork to win a decision. How many other heavyweights benefit from this kind of hand and foot speed? Not many.

[COULDHAVEBEEN]

The numbers are 183 combined fights, and only 1 loss via decision. Amazing if you ask me. Regarding the Klitschko's, I don't think either has ever come close to losing on points, and I tend to doubt either will.

Lewis and Bowe fought in a better era to be sure, but after the final bell, their hands were raised in every case except for one.

The numbers do speak loud.

IMO Bowe was at least the equal of the Klitschkos.

I do think Ali would have found a way to beat all of them though.

[OLD FOGEY]

Yes, but how many decisions did Tunney, Louis, and Marciano lose. Two in about 200 or so fights, and the Louis loss to Charles came when he was old.

You are talking about domination which has always been the norm in the heavyweight division, size aside.

And Bowe should have not been given the decision on Billy Zumbrum, who is 6' at most and would certainly not be a super-heavyweight without supplements.

[McGrain]

You are talking about domination which has always been the norm in the heavyweight division, size aside.

Agree.

[Mendoza]

Yes, but how many decisions did Tunney, Louis, and Marciano lose. Two in about 200 or so fights, and the Louis loss to Charles came when he was old.

You are talking about domination which has always been the norm in the heavyweight division, size aside.

And Bowe should have not been given the decision on Billy Zumbrum, who is 6' at most and would certainly not be a super-heavyweight without supplements.


Bowe is 6'5" with an 80"+ reach. He is certainly a super heavy.

Louis and Marciano lost many rounds, and sometimes had to come back to win fights down on points. The Lastarza's, Conn's, Lowry's, Pastor's and Godoy's of boxing would not out box a top super heavy with skills. I am convinced they would be in over their heads. While the group I mentioned did win plenty of rounds vs Louis and Marciano, I think defensive footwork and guard, combined with not having a great height and reach advantage had a lot to do with it. In is possible / probable that Louis and Marciano received gift decisions.

Tunney only lost one official decisions, but he was rather unique for his time.

I have few conclusions on super heavies:

1 ) Height is an advantage on the outside as the shorter man losses range as his punches upward. The maximum striking distance is a straight line from the shoulder. The more a fighter has to raise his arc, the less range he has.

2 ) Reach or as I prefer to call it striking distance from the put of the arm to the glove is an advantage super heavies usually have.

3 ) The jab is the key punch for outfighting. Super heavies have a huge advantage here, as it not only can pile up points, but also in the case of a skilled super heavyweight offers a set up for the right hand, or the left hook. The smaller man must somehow get past the super heavyweight jab, avoid being tied up, get into range and land, and then land his blows. After he attacks, he has to watch out for a counter if he misses.

4 ) Old time large heavyweights were not as good of boxers, and often lacked good jabs, and skilled hooks or right hands behind it, in addition to having a pour defense. They also had slower hand speed. The historians who suggest that Willard or Carnera were beatable big guys, then say the same for modern super heavies without no qualifies are off base in my opinion.

[Mendoza]

Interesting statistics. I think this also has to due with the fact that heavyweights have always lacked fast in and out fighters. This is the only other option to outbox one of these guys other than having the same reach advantages that they have. Evander Holyfield was one of the exceptions of being a quick in and out fighter who used his jab and footwork to win a decision. How many other heavyweights benefit from this kind of hand and foot speed? Not many.

Holyfield often struggled vs bigger / skilled fighters. On a fair score card he is 1-4 vs Lewis and Bowe. I do think you have a point. Holy was a quick and skilled guy with good mobility, speed, and most importantly good counter punching and body shots.

Holyfield also had an excellent chin, which is needed when your giving up a lot on the outside. Still, as I said his performances vs Bowe and Lewis suggest that even one who was well equipped to overcome, in most cases did not.

[My dinner with Conteh]

Bowe was outboxed and outthought by Tubbs, but I do agree with the essence of the thread.

[The Kurgan]

And, as anticipated, most of the discussion between supposed historians in this thread has assumed that there's this static unchanging sport called "boxing". :verysad

[mcvey]

Over the years I have mentioned before that super heavyweights with skills such as Bowe, Lewis or Klitschko is the present and future of heavyweight boxing. If such a man is there, he's going to be the #1 or #2 man in his prime.

Height and size, when combined with speed, skills, and power are tough things to overcome. If the big guy learns how to either in-fight, or clinch, he's going to be very hard to beat.

While any heavyweight in theory can lose a fight on one big punch, or an injury one this is clear. Out boxing a super heavyweight with skills unless you are one yourself is not an option. It is best to look at the facts.

Riddick Bowe has 45 fights. Lennox Lewis had 44 fights. W. Klitschko has 55 fights to date , and V Klitschko has 39 fights to date. Combined they have 183 fights. How many of them were decision losses? Anyone care to guess?

The answer is just one. Bowe lost a razor thin decision to Holyfield ( A top 15 ATG for sure ) on a fight marred with a controversial 17-minute break, which may have allowed Holyfield to completely re-fuel and keep boxing and moving the way he was earlier to defeat Bowe.

Anyone care to discuss this topic?
' The brothers GRIM are clearly the best big men but their opposition has been woeful imo.Ali outboxes them both imo.and Lewis who would not be mobile enough to keep up with Ali .Bowe was too easy to hit to beat Ali

[janitor]

Can they be outboxed by a smaller heavyweight?

The answer to that is yes, but it is probably going to take an exceptional fighter to do it eg Holyfield over Bowe.

[Mendoza]

' The brothers GRIM are clearly the best big men but their opposition has been woeful imo.Ali outboxes them both imo.and Lewis who would not be mobile enough to keep up with Ali .Bowe was too easy to hit to beat Ali

I do not want to start an Ali vs thread. For whatever reason some historians are gun shy about saying honest observations that are viewed as degratory on Ali's flaws.

Ali really had trouble with good jabbers at every stage of his career.

D Jones. Ali won 6-4 on my card; this fight took place less than a year before Ali defeated Liston for the title.

K Norton 1973. Ali lost a clean decision before he beats Frazier or Foreman.

K Norton 1973. Re-match, and the only one of the three where Ali can honestly be called winner.

Lyle 1975. Lyle was up on points because his jab was better prior to the stoppage. Ali was 33 years old here.

Young 1976. Who really won is debatable. Ali was likely in his decline by this time; however, he did say Jimmy reminded him what he was like when he was Younger. Again, Young's jab gave Ali fits.

Norton 1976. Norton won the fight 10 rounds to 5 but was robbed!

We can skip the Holmes fight because Ali was too old, but I think above names represent the best out fighters Ali fought. Men with skills, and a jab.

My point? I think Bowe, Lewis and both Klitschkos are better boxers and jabbers, and hit harder than anyone on this list. So you betcha boots they could beat Ali, just like Norton did, or like Young, Lyle, or Jones nearly did...by out boxing him.

[mcvey]

I do not want to start an Ali vs thread. For whatever reason some historians are gun shy about saying honest observations that are viewed as degratory on Ali's flaws.

Ali really had trouble with good jabbers at every stage of his career.

D Jones. Ali won 6-4 on my card; this fight took place less than a year before Ali defeated Liston for the title.

K Norton 1973. Ali lost a clean decision before he beats Frazier or Foreman.

K Norton 1973. Re-match, and the only one of the three where Ali can honestly be called winner.

Lyle 1975. Lyle was up on points because his jab was better prior to the stoppage. Ali was 33 years old here.

Young 1976. Who really won is debatable. Ali was likely in his decline by this time; however, he did say Jimmy reminded him what he was like when he was Younger. Again, Young's jab gave Ali fits.

Norton 1976. Norton won the fight 10 rounds to 5 but was robbed!

We can skip the Holmes fight because Ali was too old, but I think above names represent the best out fighters Ali fought. Men with skills, and a jab.

My point? I think Bowe, Lewis and both Klitschkos are better boxers and jabbers, and hit harder than anyone on this list. So you betcha boots they could beat Ali, just like Norton did, or like Young, Lyle, or Jones nearly did...by out boxing him.
If you think the Klits are better boxers than Ali we have nowhere to go with this discussion.

[Mendoza]

McVey, I think the last sentence here sums it up best. So you betcha boots they could beat Ali, just like Norton did, or like Young, Lyle, or Jones nearly did...by out boxing him. Do you really think Norton, Young or Lyle were harder to out box than Lewis, Bowe or the Klitschko's I do not.

[OLD FOGEY]

Bowe is 6'5" with an 80"+ reach. He is certainly a super heavy.

Louis and Marciano lost many rounds, and sometimes had to come back to win fights down on points. The Lastarza's, Conn's, Lowry's, Pastor's and Godoy's of boxing would not out box a top super heavy with skills. I am convinced they would be in over their heads. While the group I mentioned did win plenty of rounds vs Louis and Marciano, I think defensive footwork and guard, combined with not having a great height and reach advantage had a lot to do with it. In is possible / probable that Louis and Marciano received gift decisions.

Tunney only lost one official decisions, but he was rather unique for his time.

I have few conclusions on super heavies:

1 ) Height is an advantage on the outside as the shorter man losses range as his punches upward. The maximum striking distance is a straight line from the shoulder. The more a fighter has to raise his arc, the less range he has.

2 ) Reach or as I prefer to call it striking distance from the put of the arm to the glove is an advantage super heavies usually have.

3 ) The jab is the key punch for outfighting. Super heavies have a huge advantage here, as it not only can pile up points, but also in the case of a skilled super heavyweight offers a set up for the right hand, or the left hook. The smaller man must somehow get past the super heavyweight jab, avoid being tied up, get into range and land, and then land his blows. After he attacks, he has to watch out for a counter if he misses.

4 ) Old time large heavyweights were not as good of boxers, and often lacked good jabs, and skilled hooks or right hands behind it, in addition to having a pour defense. They also had slower hand speed. The historians who suggest that Willard or Carnera were beatable big guys, then say the same for modern super heavies without no qualifies are off base in my opinion.

1. "Bowe is 6' 5" and a super-heavyweight"-----So. My sentence refers to Zumbrum as being 6' and built up on steroids. I don't see what point you are making. No one disputes that Bowe is a super-heavyweight.

2. What you say about height is true but it always has been not only at heavyweight but all the other weights. How did a 5' 6" Basilio defeat Robinson who certainly was skilled and had a good jab? How did Al Brown and Sandy Saddler lose to men much shorter? An aging Emile Griffith, his best years a memory, gave the 6' Carlos Monzon a close fight? How did people like Tiger and Fullmer succeed against men much taller? How did Greb defeat the much taller Tunney? How did Walker hold the much taller Sharkey to a draw? How did the 5' 11" Frazier defeat the 6' 4" Bugner, or the 6' 3" Ali, both of whom were certainly skilled. Ernie Terrell was actually taller than Wlad Klitschko, but he lost plenty of rounds to short men. What is the difference? I think two:

A. Modern heavyweight boxers are not taught and are not very good at fighting on the inside. Pro boxing has basically become amateur boxing, sparring matches at a distance. This favors height, no doubt. If this trend toward sissy boxing continues, boxing will die, at least in the United States. Vitali versus Gomez should have been a fairly good matchup but was sided into an obscure cable channel, and justifiably. Gomez turned out to be bloated, slow, a one handed fighter with no jab or ability or willingness to fight on the inside. The fight was boringly one-sided. The contenders I have seen challenging the Klitschko's recently, Austin, Thompson, Peter, and Gomez, are depressingly limited fighters.

B. The major contributing factor here is referees who simply do not allow inside fighting and yell 'break' the instant the shorter man closes. My attitude is that only the tall gawky "basketball" type young men should even consider boxing. Why compete in a sport in which the tall man's advantages--height and reach--are allowed, but the short man's advantages--a lower center of gravity, short arms which allow one to work the body inside--are foreclosed by the referees for reasons not clear to me. Body punches hurt but they probably do not create the long-term damage head punches do. I would think boxing officials would encourage body work.

[SuzieQ49]

Mendoza,

Ali was way past his prime against norton lyle and young. Ali weighed wut 230lb of fat when he fought young? talk about overweight. the 1964-1967 ali was a much faster sharper boxer than the one of the mid 1970s

[Bokaj]

I do not want to start an Ali vs thread. For whatever reason some historians are gun shy about saying honest observations that are viewed as degratory on Ali's flaws.

Ali really had trouble with good jabbers at every stage of his career.

D Jones. Ali won 6-4 on my card; this fight took place less than a year before Ali defeated Liston for the title.

K Norton 1973. Ali lost a clean decision before he beats Frazier or Foreman.

K Norton 1973. Re-match, and the only one of the three where Ali can honestly be called winner.

Lyle 1975. Lyle was up on points because his jab was better prior to the stoppage. Ali was 33 years old here.

Young 1976. Who really won is debatable. Ali was likely in his decline by this time; however, he did say Jimmy reminded him what he was like when he was Younger. Again, Young's jab gave Ali fits.

Norton 1976. Norton won the fight 10 rounds to 5 but was robbed!

We can skip the Holmes fight because Ali was too old, but I think above names represent the best out fighters Ali fought. Men with skills, and a jab.

My point? I think Bowe, Lewis and both Klitschkos are better boxers and jabbers, and hit harder than anyone on this list. So you betcha boots they could beat Ali, just like Norton did, or like Young, Lyle, or Jones nearly did...by out boxing him.

I just don't know where you got the idea from that Jones and Lyle outjabbed Ali. There's just no merit to that. Norton gave Ali trouble with his jab and Young to some extent (but it was more the counter right), though.

[META5]

I just don't know where you got the idea from that Jones and Lyle outjabbed Ali. There's just no merit to that. Norton gave Ali trouble with his jab and Young to some extent (but it was more the counter right), though.

Don't try to use facts when discussing Ali with Mendoza ... it just doesn't suit the agenda. Again we hear that Ali had trouble with jabbers at all stages of his career, yet, no mention of Ali taking Liston's jab completely out of the equation, as well as the jab of Terrell.

Nah, all you needed to do to trouble Ali was throw a good jab, just like all it took to trouble Holmes was an overhand right, Tyson if you stood up to him, Louis if you used your feet, Lewis if you cracked the chin, Dempsey if you were Black, Duran if you stayed on the outside and so on and so forth.

[Bokaj]

Don't try to use facts when discussing Ali with Mendoza ... it just doesn't suit the agenda. Again we hear that Ali had trouble with jabbers at all stages of his career, yet, no mention of Ali taking Liston's jab completely out of the equation, as well as the jab of Terrell.

Nah, all you needed to do to trouble Ali was throw a good jab, just like all it took to trouble Holmes was an overhand right, Tyson if you stood up to him, Louis if you used your feet, Lewis if you cracked the chin, Dempsey if you were Black, Duran if you stayed on the outside and so on and so forth.

Well put.

[Mendoza]

Don't try to use facts when discussing Ali with Mendoza ... it just doesn't suit the agenda. Again we hear that Ali had trouble with jabbers at all stages of his career, yet, no mention of Ali taking Liston's jab completely out of the equation, as well as the jab of Terrell.

Well Liston quit in the first fight and likely took a dive / or opted not to get up in the second fight. I had Ali up 3 rounds to 2 before Liston opted not to come out in their first meeting. Liston injury remained a mystery and he never had any corrective surgery to my knowledge.

I suggest you watch Ali vs Lyle. Lyle was in fact out boxing him for the first 8 rounds or so and most certainly had a lead prior to Ali landing one of the best right crosses of his career. The stoppage was a tad quick if you ask me. I would have given Lyle a few more seconds, and his corner was going berserk.

If you want to debate scorecards on Ali vs Jones, Norton, Lyle or Young, please start a separate thread. We will quickly see who is calling it as it was and who has an agenda. Until then I’d like to keep the focus of this thread on the topic I started. Fair enough?

[Mendoza]

Mendoza,

Ali was way past his prime against norton lyle and young. Ali weighed wut 230lb of fat when he fought young? talk about overweight. the 1964-1967 ali was a much faster sharper boxer than the one of the mid 1970s

I would not say Ali was way past his prime vs Norton. Ali was 31 years old in this fight, and looked good after coming off his first career loss to Frazier in 1971. Norton was just a hard match up for Ali.

Ali was 33 for Lyle. Not exactly old. Maybe slightly past his prime is the best way to put it. After facing Lyle, Ali put on perhaps his best performance of the 1970's vs Joe Frazier in 1976. So there is not way Ali was way past his prime here in my opinion in the Lyle fight.

Ali slowed down a bit more around 1976. The 3rd Frazier fight took a lot out of Ali. After this fight Ali was 34, and seemed to lack the stamina and work ethic to get into top form. In the Young fight and his 3rd fight with Norton Ali struggled big time vs skilled boxers.

Now allow me to build a build a bridge to the topic at hand. It is my observation that Super Heavies with skills had perhaps the best style for an aging 34+ year old fighter. Lewis and V. Klitshcko are two of the best 35+ year old heavies I ever saw. In fact if there were such a thing as best all times heavies over 35, Lewis and V. Klitschko would be in my top 5. Why is a good question. I think height, power a good reach, and a jab allow them to dictate the pace of their action, and even though they are older the smaller younger fighters still have a lot to cope with to score.

[Bokaj]

I suggest you watch Ali vs Lyle. Lyle was in fact out boxing him for the first 8 rounds or so and most certainly had a lead prior to Ali landing one of the best right crosses of his career. The stoppage was a tad quick if you ask me. I would have given Lyle a few more seconds, and his corner was going berserk.

Even though this was not adressed to me I suggest you watch the fight. Yes, Lyle was slightly ahead but was in no way outboxing Ali. He simply won the rounds where Ali did nothing, and by that I mean nothing. Such rounds aren't hard to win. To Lyle's credit he didn't get suckered into a rope-a-dope as Ali wanted, but he didn't do any damage either. Just scored enough (mostly mith bodyshots, not jabs) to win the rounds.

But when Ali opened up he got to Lyle just about every time, as showed especially in round 8 when he had Lyle in trouble. This was also the round he had pedicted he would KO Lyle. So he was obviously being "outboxed" so badly that he didn't come very far from making his prediction come true. Not bad. Ali won nearly every round where he actually threw punches.

I'll grant you Jones and Norton as guys that really puzzled and troubled Ali while he was not very far from his prime version, but I just don't think Lyle fit the bill in the same way. And he ceratinly didn't dominate Ali with his jab. In fact, Ali slipped that jab and countered it enough that you could claim it was more a liability than an asset. Foster, for example, had far more success with his jab than Lyle had.

[Mendoza]

Even though this was not adressed to me I suggest you watch the fight. Yes, Lyle was slightly ahead but was in no way outboxing Ali. He simply won the rounds where Ali did nothing, and by that I mean nothing. Such rounds aren't hard to win. To Lyle's credit he didn't get suckered into a rope-a-dope as Ali wanted, but he didn't do any damage either. Just scored enough (mostly mith bodyshots, not jabs) to win the rounds.

But when Ali opened up he got to Lyle just about every time, as showed especially in round 8 when he had Lyle in trouble. This was also the round he had pedicted he would KO Lyle. So he was obviously being "outboxed" so badly that he didn't come very far from making his prediction come true. Not bad. Ali won nearly every round where he actually threw punches.

I'll grant you Jones and Norton as guys that really puzzled and troubled Ali while he was not very far from his prime version, but I just don't think Lyle fit the bill in the same way. And he ceratinly didn't dominate Ali with his jab. In fact, Ali slipped that jab and countered it enough that you could claim it was more a liability than an asset. Foster, for example, had far more success with his jab than Lyle had.


I'm glad to see someone agrees that Jones and Norton troubled Ali, and Ali was not far removed from hsi prime when these fights ( not the 3rd Norton fight ) happened.

Lyle was up on points because he was out landing Ali and clearly up on points. The jab was a factor. After the first 8 rounds, Lyle probably won six. I think Lyle size, jab and ability gave Ali problems, which is a big reason why Ali did nothing.

Lyle himself was a boarderline super heavy with pretty good skills. If he was smaller, he could not win rounds the way he did.

The truth of this fight is Ali could not win it by moving and boxing partly due to Lyle skills and size. He had to switch styles to become more of a slugger and came on late. I also feel that the rope a dope only works best vs a fighter with limited stamina, and poor ring generalship/strategy. Ali could not hope to rope a dope Bowe, Lewis, Klitschko or Klitschko for many rounds realistically win.

[fists of fury]

Now allow me to build a build a bridge to the topic at hand. It is my observation that Super Heavies with skills had perhaps the best style for an aging 34+ year old fighter. Lewis and V. Klitshcko are two of the best 35+ year old heavies I ever saw. In fact if there were such a thing as best all times heavies over 35, Lewis and V. Klitschko would be in my top 5. Why is a good question. I think height, power a good reach, and a jab allow them to dictate the pace of their action, and even though they are older the smaller younger fighters still have a lot to cope with to score.

This is a good point. Well put.

But boxing is a funny old game. Just when you think something or someone is unbeatable, along comes someone else to prove it isn't, usually spectacularly.

But at the moment the big superheavyweights hold the aces. We'll see how long this lasts...

[OLD FOGEY]

I would not say Ali was way past his prime vs Norton. Ali was 31 years old in this fight, and looked good after coming off his first career loss to Frazier in 1971. Norton was just a hard match up for Ali.

Ali was 33 for Lyle. Not exactly old. Maybe slightly past his prime is the best way to put it. After facing Lyle, Ali put on perhaps his best performance of the 1970's vs Joe Frazier in 1976. So there is not way Ali was way past his prime here in my opinion in the Lyle fight.

Ali slowed down a bit more around 1976. The 3rd Frazier fight took a lot out of Ali. After this fight Ali was 34, and seemed to lack the stamina and work ethic to get into top form. In the Young fight and his 3rd fight with Norton Ali struggled big time vs skilled boxers.

Now allow me to build a build a bridge to the topic at hand. It is my observation that Super Heavies with skills had perhaps the best style for an aging 34+ year old fighter. Lewis and V. Klitshcko are two of the best 35+ year old heavies I ever saw. In fact if there were such a thing as best all times heavies over 35, Lewis and V. Klitschko would be in my top 5. Why is a good question. I think height, power a good reach, and a jab allow them to dictate the pace of their action, and even though they are older the smaller younger fighters still have a lot to cope with to score.

This last paragraph is a very good point.

By the way, do you think either Lewis or Vitali when they were older were in against a boxer as skilled as Norton or Young. I do not think Peter or Gomez fit that bill.

I agree, though, that 6' 8" and skilled is very tough to beat.

I do think there is not much doubt an old Vitali defeats an old Ali. A young Ali is a different kettle of fish.

[Bokaj]

I'm glad to see someone agrees that Jones and Norton troubled Ali, and Ali was not far removed from hsi prime when these fights ( not the 3rd Norton fight ) happened.

Lyle was up on points because he was out landing Ali and clearly up on points. The jab was a factor. After the first 8 rounds, Lyle probably won six. I think Lyle size, jab and ability gave Ali problems, which is a big reason why Ali did nothing.

Well, we just disagree about this fight I supposse. I think it would be hard on Ali not to give him rds 5, 6 and 8 of the first eight. Round 7 was close, but I have no problem giving that to Lyle.

The reason why Ali did so little in many rounds was down to his own tactics IMO, not Lyle. He probably saw similarities between Lyle and Foreman and thought he could beat Lyle the same way. But when he opened up there was no hesitation and he soon started time him with his right. The reason why Lyle lost was because he was too vulnerable to Ali's right. Once Ali had "calibrated" it on Lyle he landed it nearly at will.

Lyle himself was a boarderline super heavy with pretty good skills. If he was smaller, he could not win rounds the way he did.

The truth of this fight is Ali could not win it by moving and boxing partly due to Lyle skills and size. He had to switch styles to become more of a slugger and came on late.

I don't believe this to be true. Bugner, whom he met in the next fight, was of a simliar size as Lyle, but had better reach, jab and defensive skills, and Ali moved and boxed him. He was more agressive than usual, but he relied on his boxing skills.

In general Ali had a pretty easy time with the bigger guys.

I also feel that the rope a dope only works best vs a fighter with limited stamina, and poor ring generalship/strategy. Ali could not hope to rope a dope Bowe, Lewis, Klitschko or Klitschko for many rounds realistically win.

Agreed.

[Bummy Davis]

While Bowe had more skills than Carnera or Willard, he still got hit too much...watching him against Holyfield and Golota...forget size what would he do if he ran into Joe Louis's fast buzzsaw of a combo...Louis hit harder than Golota or Holy and IMO would chop Bowe down and out promptly as far as a decision...I think a fighter with power but with a boxing plan and movement can outbox him...Walcott, Young, are some that should be able too

[godking]

Over the years I have mentioned before that super heavyweights with skills such as Bowe, Lewis or Klitschko is the present and future of heavyweight boxing. If such a man is there, he's going to be the #1 or #2 man in his prime.

Height and size, when combined with speed, skills, and power are tough things to overcome. If the big guy learns how to either in-fight, or clinch, he's going to be very hard to beat.

While any heavyweight in theory can lose a fight on one big punch, or an injury one this is clear. Out boxing a super heavyweight with skills unless you are one yourself is not an option. It is best to look at the facts.

Riddick Bowe has 45 fights. Lennox Lewis had 44 fights. W. Klitschko has 55 fights to date , and V Klitschko has 39 fights to date. Combined they have 183 fights. How many of them were decision losses? Anyone care to guess?

The answer is just one. Bowe lost a razor thin decision to Holyfield ( A top 15 ATG for sure ) on a fight marred with a controversial 17-minute break, which may have allowed Holyfield to completely re-fuel and keep boxing and moving the way he was earlier to defeat Bowe.

Anyone care to discuss this topic?

Lewis : If he choses to go for the dull points victory is nigh impossible to outbox or engage when he does not want you too to strong and to fluid for a big man to outbox

Wlad Klitchko : much the same though his natural timidity could give an opening to exploit for a faster skilled fighter

Vitali : can be outboxed fairly slow and stiff his size and punching power make him dangerous throughout the fight so you cant make any mistakes

Bowe : Fairly easy to outbox no defense + complete inablity to handle a jab. I would pick a lot of good smaller HWS to outbox him Holyfield was dumb and to brave for his own good against Bowe. Had Holyfield chosen to box like he did in the second fight he would not have lost the first fight.

[META5]

Everything that I had to say has pretty much been touched on by Bokaj ... Ali had trouble with Jones, more so because Jones stepped forward with the jab, which caught Ali going back in a straight line, and NOT just because he jabbed well. One of the major differences between the Jones and Liston is that Ali was learning to not 'run' as much, which made him conserve more energy as well as become more efficient with his defensive methods, such as pulling back in a straight line, but actually moving his head as well.

Mendoza, Ali made Liston look totally outclassed and I think it dishonest to suggest otherwise. The Liston that took Cleveland Williams' sledgehammers and gamely fought back, cowered into a protective foetal position when Ali opened up on him ... Liston knew he was outclassed, so did those at ringside, as did Ali, himself ... you could see the confidence once he got his vision back ... meh, 'tis but a moot point.

I don't think that Ali was near prime for Norton ... any fighter as reliant on reflexes and athleticism that misses 3 1/2 years of their prime years cannot be deemed to be in prime ring-ready condition ... physical prime, arguably, but as primed as one would be if they had a continual run of fighting at the top level? I find that hard to believe ... but yes, Norton would give Ali trouble at all stages, but not cause of the jab, but because of the gameplan implemented by Futch.

I've had enough ... I gave up when you stated that Lyle was outboxing Ali without qualifying it by saying that Lyle was winning the cards against a guy that was pissing about in the ring ... whenever Ali actually decided to do something, as Bokaj said, Lyle was vulnerable and 'twas only a matter of time ... premature stoppage? Yes, but Lyle took numerous unanswered blows ... he did himself no favours and gave the referee a choice to make.

Back to the thread, I do like Bowe ... I really do, but I don't immediately think of the guy as an ATG. In fact, I find him highly overrated by some ... the guy was damn hittable and I'd put money on him getting beat decisively by a number of ATGs ... I think he was just too hittable and his lack of disciple is an intangiable that I cannot overlook.

[Mendoza]

.

I don't think that Ali was near prime for Norton ... any fighter as reliant on reflexes and athleticism that misses 3 1/2 years of their prime years cannot be deemed to be in prime ring-ready condition ... physical prime, arguably, but as primed as one would be if they had a continual run of fighting at the top level? I find that hard to believe ... but yes, Norton would give Ali trouble at all stages, but not cause of the jab, but because of the gameplan implemented by Futch.

I've had enough ... I gave up when you stated that Lyle was outboxing Ali without qualifying it by saying that Lyle was winning the cards against a guy that was pissing about in the ring ... whenever Ali actually decided to do something, as Bokaj said, Lyle was vulnerable and 'twas only a matter of time ... premature stoppage? Yes, but Lyle took numerous unanswered blows ... he did himself no favours and gave the referee a choice to make.


Ok, so Ali who had quite a few fights post exile and was still young ( age 31 ) was not near his prime for the first Norton fight? I disagree.

Also, how can you quantify " Pissing " about the ring was not partly an attempt to mask ring defncies? Boxers seldom like to give rounds up. This was a title fight, and Lyle was up on a fair card prior to the stopapge. Did Hagler " piss " away rounds vs Leonard do did Sugar Ray skill set have something to do with it? It seems like your not so eager to give Lyle credit.

IMO, Lyle overall skillet and size made Ali fight they way he did in the first 8 rounds. Ali was not exactly in there with a person he could show boat with. When Ali was down on points, he had to switch things up and become more aggressive...because he decided he could not win by out boxing Lyle on that night.I think Ali himself was to blame as he was not in great shape post Frazier for all of his fights. That was his own fault and is something that should not be pinned on being 33 or way past this prime.

[Boilermaker]

What is the definition of a super heavy. It is worth noting that Tyson outboxed all of the superheavys of his era, and i doubt he qualifies as a super heavy. Spinks outboxed the skilled super heavy in Cooney quite comprehensively. The reason Vitali, Vlad, and Lewis cant be outboxed is not that they are super heavyies, it is because they dont have any decent non super heavy challengers anymore or certainly they dont have any who are at their own level. By the way, is Brewster a super heavy, because he sure outboxed Vlad the first time as well. Is Golota a superheavy, because he sure lost a few rounds to chris byrd. I can see your point, but it really comes back to the class of the individual fighter not their size. Prime Tyson rarely was outboxed because he was that much better than others. Size is largely irrelevant (although that may be part of the reason why they are so good).

[Bokaj]

Also, how can you quantify " Pissing " about the ring was not partly an attempt to mask ring defncies? Boxers seldom like to give rounds up. This was a title fight, and Lyle was up on a fair card prior to the stopapge. Did Hagler " piss " away rounds vs Leonard do did Sugar Ray skill set have something to do with it? It seems like your not so eager to give Lyle credit.

Ali would not seldom give rounds away in what could be looked upon as either tactics or clowning - or a bit of both. Look at the first 4 rds in the rematch against Patterson for example.

[Mendoza]

Ali would not seldom give rounds away in what could be looked upon as either tactics or clowning - or a bit of both. Look at the first 4 rds in the rematch against Patterson for example.


Did Ali give away rounds to the weaker fighters he fought? Not really. I think it is fair to say the clowning you refer to was at times triggered by good opponents who could win rounds vs him. When Ali was hurt or struggling, he acted and clowned. The Shavers fight is a good example. Ali was not in control at times. He was hurt. It was Ali's modus operandi to play to the crowd as if it was all part of his plan when he was not doing well. Even when he was losing to Frazier, Ali would play to the crowd. Ali would say stuff and act, Frazier didn't care and just belted him time after time.

[Mendoza]

What is the definition of a super heavy. It is worth noting that Tyson outboxed all of the superheavys of his era, and i doubt he qualifies as a super heavy. Spinks outboxed the skilled super heavy in Cooney quite comprehensively. The reason Vitali, Vlad, and Lewis cant be outboxed is not that they are super heavyies, it is because they dont have any decent non super heavy challengers anymore or certainly they dont have any who are at their own level. By the way, is Brewster a super heavy, because he sure outboxed Vlad the first time as well. Is Golota a superheavy, because he sure lost a few rounds to chris byrd. I can see your point, but it really comes back to the class of the individual fighter not their size. Prime Tyson rarely was outboxed because he was that much better than others. Size is largely irrelevant (although that may be part of the reason why they are so good).

I do not think there is a set definition for a super heavy. The way I am referring to it, here is a super heavyweight with skills. There are plenty of super heavyweights, but few super heavyweight with skills.

I suppose a super heavyweight can be defined in three parts. Height, weight and reach. A lose definition of mine is a fighter who is 6'4"+ 225+ pounds, and has a 78'+ reach. If a fighter is slightly under in one area, but over in the other two, I'm fine with that.

Tyson had some trouble with bigger fighters. Douglas might qualify as a super heavy, and so does Lewis. Both guys KO'd him. Tyson went the distance with Tucker, Smith and Green, all three were pretty much super heavies. In addition, Bruno definitely had Tyson rocked and hurt in their first fight. The best skilled super heavies beat Tyson, and the others managed to survive or have their share of moments in Bruno.

I would say Golota is a super heavy, however he was kind of past his prime and never really was focused when he fought Byrd. Byrd, when matched vs the Kltischko was thoroughly dominated on the scorecards.


Since Bowe defeated Holyfield in 1992, the #1 heavyweight in the world was almost always a super heavyweight, and usually one with skills. 17 years has passed, and today the clear #1 and #2 guys are super heavies. I do not see this trend changing anytime soon. If a super heavy with skills is out there, I think he is going to be #1 or #2, and will to beat his smaller to medium sized top ten opponents, barring a KO, DQ, or injury related loss. My point of the thread is Super heavies with skills seldom lose decisons on points.

[janitor]

Since Bowe defeated Holyfield in 1992, the #1 heavyweight in the world was almost always a super heavyweight, and usually one with skills. 17 years has passed, and today the clear #1 and #2 guys are super heavies. I do not see this trend changing anytime soon. If a super heavy with skills is out there, I think he is going to be #1 or #2, and will to beat his smaller to medium sized top ten opponents, barring a KO, DQ, or injury related loss. My point of the thread is Super heavies with skills seldom lose decisons on points.

Might part of the problem be that the level of technique at heavyweight is generaly less than in the lower weight classes?

Perhaps the shorter heavyweights for this reason are failing to do what shorter fighters at lowere weights are doing and have been doing since the begining of time.

[Mendoza]

Might part of the problem be that the level of technique at heavyweight is generaly less than in the lower weight classes?

Perhaps the shorter heavyweights for this reason are failing to do what shorter fighters at lowere weights are doing and have been doing since the begining of time.

Most fighters with skills and technique who move up from light heavy or cruiser fail at heavy. I think the days of small heavies ( 200-210 ) at heavy being the #1 guy are pretty much over. Maybe once in a blue moon a 200-210 pound fighter will earn a world title belt.

[Bokaj]

Did Ali give away rounds to the weaker fighters he fought? Not really. I think it is fair to say the clowning you refer to was at times triggered by good opponents who could win rounds vs him. When Ali was hurt or struggling, he acted and clowned. The Shavers fight is a good example. Ali was not in control at times. He was hurt. It was Ali's modus operandi to play to the crowd as if it was all part of his plan when he was not doing well. Even when he was losing to Frazier, Ali would play to the crowd. Ali would say stuff and act, Frazier didn't care and just belted him time after time.

This is true, but it's also true that he acted on the verge of casual when he felt superior. You can see this kind of attitude against for example Cooper, Patterson and Foster.

As for Lyle, though, I think rope-a-dope seemed like a good tactic since his shape weren't quite what it should be and since Lyle reminded in some aspects of Foreman. I do feel it was kind of the lazy man's choice, though, and it clearly didn't work. But when Lyle didn't get suckered into it, Ali became more active, found the range with his right after a while and eventually won.

This is my reading of the fight, but it doesn't seem like we will agree. But using Lyle as an example of how Ali struggled with big men with some skill is flawed for other reasons as well. He clearly didn't have much problem with Terrell and Bugner for example, the two guys he met who best combined size with skill. And their jabs were both better than Lyle's.

With that said I see prime Wlad and Lewis as very dangerous opponents for any version of Ali. Bowe wouldn't be a walk in the park either, but Vitaly might just be too slow and clumsy for Ali in his prime.

[janitor]

Most fighters with skills and technique who move up from light heavy or cruiser fail at heavy. I think the days of small heavies ( 200-210 ) at heavy being the #1 guy are pretty much over. Maybe once in a blue moon a 200-210 pound fighter will earn a world title belt.

Yes but for a guy to fight at heavyweight at under 200lbs or even 210 today he prety much has to be a former middleweight.

The fact is that even a light heavyweight can bulk up to over 210 today while that was not an option in the 1950s.

[Mendoza]

This is true, but it's also true that he acted on the verge of casual when he felt superior. You can see this kind of attitude against for example Cooper, Patterson and Foster.

As for Lyle, though, I think rope-a-dope seemed like a good tactic since his shape weren't quite what it should be and since Lyle reminded in some aspects of Foreman. I do feel it was kind of the lazy man's choice, though, and it clearly didn't work. But when Lyle didn't get suckered into it, Ali became more active, found the range with his right after a while and eventually won.

This is my reading of the fight, but it doesn't seem like we will agree. But using Lyle as an example of how Ali struggled with big men with some skill is flawed for other reasons as well. He clearly didn't have much problem with Terrell and Bugner for example, the two guys he met who best combined size with skill. And their jabs were both better than Lyle's.

With that said I see prime Wlad and Lewis as very dangerous opponents for any version of Ali. Bowe wouldn't be a walk in the park either, but Vitaly might just be too slow and clumsy for Ali in his prime.

Well Terrell and Bugner were not as good or skilled as Lyle. They did not hit as hard, and were more passive, which made it easier for Ali to beat them. I think that is a vlaid point. Terrell was slow, and Bugner lacked fire period.

I do thank you for acknowledge some of the points I made here, even if we disagree on shades of grey on how much Lyle size and skills made the fight harder on Ali. If Lyle was not a good outfighter, Ali does not give up rounds. I also think that Bowe, Lewis, Vitali and Wlad would have likely beaten Ali on the night he fought Lyle.

[Bokaj]

Well Terrell and Bugner were not as good or skilled as Lyle. They did not hit as hard, and were more passive, which made it easier for Ali to beat them. I think that is a vlaid point. Terrell was slow, and Bugner lacked fire period.

I think they were both more skilled, especially with better jabs. While Lyle was more naturallly agressive he wasn't that active, though. It's not like he chased Ali or anything, he was clearly less agressive against him not only than Frazier, Cooper and Chuvalo, but also than Norton. The clear edge Lyle had on Bugner and Terrell was power, but he didn't seem to bother Ali too much with it.

Well, we read this fight differently, but I'm in agreement with you that the skilled giants are a very hard prospect for anyone h2h, especially when it comes to outboxing them. The only ones I give any real chance of outboxing prime versions of Lewis and Wlad is Holmes and Ali in their primes. Wlad might be even harder to outbox than Lewis.

[Bokaj]

Actually, I should mention Liston as someone who could really bother Lewis, Wlad etc as well. His very long ramrod jab could very well be a nightmare for these guys. They're not as quick or mobile as Ali and Machen, and they will have virtually no reach advantage against Liston, but presents nice big targets.

[Quick Cash]

Lyle did not force the tempo; that was all Ali's doing. It might not have been the right decision, but it was definitely entirely his not Ron Lyle's. Watch Ali before the fight. He can be seen screaming "mirage" and "rope-a-dope" to the broadcasters.

It was obnoxious of him, really. It was quite foolish to believe that such a strategy would work again, given the infamy of the fight in Zaire. It was fairly obvious the rope-a-dope was a one-time get-out-of-jail-free card, whether devised or improvised, but what can you say? I think he fell in love with his own legend after the Rumble. Isn't it funny he predicted his opponent to fall in the exact same round that Foreman did?

Lyle was ahead before the stoppage. That much is plain to everybody. I have to agree with Bokaj though. He was winning more on the things Ali was failing to do, and not because he was preventing Ali from doing these things either.

[groove]

Well Terrell was meant to be a good jabber. They were all saying this leading up to the Ali fight. I haven't seen enough of him to give a fair verdict. But Ali's movement at his peak nulified a lot of good jabbers e.g liston. he was more flatfooted in his 70s fights andv Lyle and clowned about doing the rope-a-dope which Lyle didn't fall for. i think in some fights ali only did enough to win and definitely in his later fights but that wasn't the same guy that Terrell was unfortunately facing :)

[Bokaj]

Well Terrell was meant to be a good jabber. They were all saying this leading up to the Ali fight. I haven't seen enough of him to give a fair verdict. But Ali's movement at his peak nulified a lot of good jabbers e.g liston. he was more flatfooted in his 70s fights andv Lyle and clowned about doing the rope-a-dope which Lyle didn't fall for.

Terrell was so intent on damage limitation in that fight that he really didn't use his jab that much. There is that famous moment when Ali slips three, four jabs and then a right while standing still and with his hands at the waist, but mostly Terrell just concentrated on surviving behind that peek-a-boo defenses.

I would actually say that Williams used his jab with much better purpose. And while he was obviously not what he had been, it's clear from the footage that his jab still was good, but Ali was too fleet footed back then. Williams did the right thing, tried to use the jab to force Ali to the ropes, but he was just outmatched speedwise. In contrast to Terrell he took the risk, though.

[SuzieQ49]

Vitali is defintley way to slow and clumsy for Ali. With the way Vitali keeps his left low, Ali will do his famous double right lead(he did to folley) right into vitali's eye opening up a huge gash.

[META5]

Ok, so Ali who had quite a few fights post exile and was still young ( age 31 ) was not near his prime for the first Norton fight? I disagree.

Also, how can you quantify " Pissing " about the ring was not partly an attempt to mask ring defncies? Boxers seldom like to give rounds up. This was a title fight, and Lyle was up on a fair card prior to the stopapge. Did Hagler " piss " away rounds vs Leonard do did Sugar Ray skill set have something to do with it? It seems like your not so eager to give Lyle credit.

IMO, Lyle overall skillet and size made Ali fight they way he did in the first 8 rounds. Ali was not exactly in there with a person he could show boat with. When Ali was down on points, he had to switch things up and become more aggressive...because he decided he could not win by out boxing Lyle on that night.I think Ali himself was to blame as he was not in great shape post Frazier for all of his fights. That was his own fault and is something that should not be pinned on being 33 or way past this prime.

Ali who had been out of the ring for 3 1/2 years, didn't have the same legs or headmovement was not near prime ... nope this is where we disagree. Yes, he was a very good, world class fighter, but I cannot call a fighter that reliant on his athletic gifts, who'd missed the best years of his youth and looks to have lost a step on film a near prime fighter.

Ali could still produce the goods because he was an elite boxer, but did he look anywhere close to his '67 ability, nope ... not in my honest opinion.

Hagler didn't piss away rounds as he was actually trying to do something against someone so comparatively superior to Lyle in skillset that it kinda nulls and voids the attempted comparison ... Ali developed a very nasty habit of coming into bouts in either horrible shape, doing just enough to get by, fighting to the level of the opposition, pandering to the crowd and allowing himself to lose winnable rounds through sheer lack of workrate. Lyle didn't give Ali anything so superior that he couldn't outbox him ... Ali just went to the ropes for fun and invited Lyle in ... or pranced about and threw nothing ... when Ali opened up on Lyle, Lyle was vulnerable and yes, Ali got aggressive, but he stopped him ... he did what he was supposed to do ... IMO, he could've done himself and the viewer a favour, stop pissing about and do it earlier in the bout. The feeling I get from watching the fight in the context of the stoppage is that Ali could've turned it on and overwhelmed him if he chose to do so and not that Lyle was so overly good that it took Ali several rounds to work him out ... if you disagree, so be it.