All-Time 200 lbs limit head to head

[ripcity]

Head to head how do the fallowing do against each other. 200 lbs weight limit.
1. Joe Louis
2. Rocky Marciano
3. Evander Holyfield
4. Floyd Patterson
5. Jack Johnson
6. Jack Dempsey
7. James Toney
8. Roy Jones Jr

All of these boxers had at least one key fight (acording to boxrec) weighing 200 lbs or less. In head to head match ups who would come out on top?
The order I have them in dose not reflect any ranking.

[ripcity]

Ezzard Charles belongs in there easily over Toney for sure, and probably Jones as well.
Yea Charles belongs in, but so dose Jones and Toney.

[brooklyn1550]

Toney should be replaced by Charles

[ripcity]

But Charles is better than both at 175 and higher. Toney doesn't really belong I wouldn't say.
It's not an elemition tourment add and subtract who ever you like.

[ripcity]

If you don't like who I selected add and/or subtract whoever you like.

[Ted Stickles]

Joe Louis
Rocky Marciano
Dempsey
Holyfield
Tunney
Just to name a few

[carll68]

Joe Louis
Rocky Marciano
Dempsey
Holyfield
Tunney
Just to name a few

Place them in a bracket, and lets see what opinions we all have

Marciano Vs Tunney

Louis Vs Johnson

Holyfield Vs Jones

Dempsey Vs Toney

who comes out of this bracket and why?

[ironchamp]

Marciano wears down Tunney in a fight where Gene's superior fundamentals are slowly eclipsed by The Rock's relentless aggression. I can picture a fight where Gene dictates the pace but is unable to keep marciano off him.

Marciano KO14


Louis's precision punching and refined style is able to sporadically land on Johnson. Jack keeps up a good pace but is constantly on the defensive after being hurt early in the fight. By the 12th round Joe is able to land combinations at will and Johnson is ultimately stopped.

Holyfield starts out fast and though not really landing clean is winning the fight based on effective agression. He corners Jones several times but is unable to do real damage until he gets stunned by a Jones combination in the 7th round. By the 10th round the scoring is a matter of preference. Jones is clearly landing the cleaner punches but Evander is pressing the action and being is busier fighter. He continues to press Roy and is able to land some clean shots but fails to follow up and lets Jones off the hook. By the 12th round Holyfield seems to be taking longer rest periods and is fighting in spurts. Jones takes advantage of this and summons a rally but never fully commits to his punches and drops a decision.

Holyfield MD12

Dempsey although unable to walk through Toney presses the action pretty hard. By the 6th round Toney's bravado seems to go out the window and he's unable frustrate Dempsey any longer.

Dempsey TKO7

[tays001]

Place them in a bracket, and lets see what opinions we all have

Marciano Vs Tunney

Louis Vs Johnson

Holyfield Vs Jones

Dempsey Vs Toney

who comes out of this bracket and why?

Marciano Vs Tunney marciano by ko in 9

Louis Vs Johnson louis by SD in 12

Holyfield Vs Jones Holyfield by ko in 11

Dempsey Vs Toney dempsey by ud over 12:good

[tays001]

Schmeling should be there, Moore should be there.

moore yes schemeling no he beat a green louis and then got :good ko'd

[tays001]

Well, that proves you don´t know much about him.

no i t just prove i dnt think much of schemling and he's an overrated euro fighter he couldn't beat any of though mentioned in the option except maybe louis but then he would make the adjustments and beat him every time after that.:good :good :D :D :D

ps dont hype up your euro greats

[ripcity]

Dose anyone think any acatual cruserweights besides Holyfield should be included?

[fists of fury]

Mmmm...cruiserweights beside Holy? I dunno, maybe Qawi, but that's about it.

[McGrain]

Dose anyone think any acatual cruserweights besides Holyfield should be included?

No sir, not in that kind of company.

[Stewbear]

Why is Jones there?

[JohnThomas1]

Michael Spinks deserves a run.

[carll68]

Marciano wears down Tunney in a fight where Gene's superior fundamentals are slowly eclipsed by The Rock's relentless aggression. I can picture a fight where Gene dictates the pace but is unable to keep marciano off him.

Marciano KO14


Louis's precision punching and refined style is able to sporadically land on Johnson. Jack keeps up a good pace but is constantly on the defensive after being hurt early in the fight. By the 12th round Joe is able to land combinations at will and Johnson is ultimately stopped.

Holyfield starts out fast and though not really landing clean is winning the fight based on effective agression. He corners Jones several times but is unable to do real damage until he gets stunned by a Jones combination in the 7th round. By the 10th round the scoring is a matter of preference. Jones is clearly landing the cleaner punches but Evander is pressing the action and being is busier fighter. He continues to press Roy and is able to land some clean shots but fails to follow up and lets Jones off the hook. By the 12th round Holyfield seems to be taking longer rest periods and is fighting in spurts. Jones takes advantage of this and summons a rally but never fully commits to his punches and drops a decision.

Holyfield MD12

Dempsey although unable to walk through Toney presses the action pretty hard. By the 6th round Toney's bravado seems to go out the window and he's unable frustrate Dempsey any longer.

Dempsey TKO7

Ok..we seem to have a concensus

Bracket 2 is Marciano , Loius , Holy , Dempsey

this is my choice as well

Lets put them together for the final, then the championship

Holy Vs. Dempsey
Loius vs Marciano (dont hand me the "they already fought" stuff)

This is tough.

Who and why?

[ChrisPontius]

I don´t hype anyone. You just don´t know much. Schmeling was the 2nd best hw from 1928 till 1938. That´s 10 years. In that time he beat every man he faced with the exception of Max Baer. Was the most consistent of all hw contenders with the exception of Joe Louis. He was very good counterpuncher with very good ring intelligence, a good defence and good power. A Top20 hw of all-time.

ps smileys don´t help your arguments, oh, well there were no arguments anyway.

:good Schmeling was a good if not great fighter.
Louis was better, no doubt, but no one can take that first fight away from him..



About the topic, i think Louis comes out on top although he was a bit over 200 pounds when he as more experienced. I think Marciano would end up second and Dempsey third. But i think Charles should definitly by in there, as well as Walcott. Switch them with Jones and Toney for instance. I also think Johnson would lose to most of them in terms of head to head, because he boxed in a transition from bareknuckle to gloved boxing style, i think he'd be picked apart from the outside.

[ripcity]

Why is Jones there?
Because he is fast enough to give anyone 200 lbs or less a lot of problems and is also cappable of wining any fight at 200 lbs.

[Vantage_West]

frazier :think why has nobody said it made 200 easy only beacue he was at heavy did he actually not care to be up or not

sam langford was 180 odd. dare we looking for guys who can weigh that wieght or guys who are at cruiser?

[Vantage_West]

jerry quarry anyone...very good fighter gave alot of guys problems just was too proud to try out box ali and try and out brawl frazier

agaisnt big guys he was electric and i think louis would have trouble agianst him.

[Vantage_West]

harry wills made 200 and would of fought at that wieght for ages if so....sO harry wills (please dont hit me):oops:

[Stewbear]

Because he is fast enough to give anyone 200 lbs or less a lot of problems and is also cappable of wining any fight at 200 lbs.

Says who?
What has he done above 175? (please not ruiz)
Hell who has he beat at 175?

[Vantage_West]

im not saying jimmy ellis was an atg but he was a damn good fighter very small for the wieght and not like frazier or quarry he actually forced himself to make the wieght. he fought hard hard hard competition especially for such a small framed man.
he could be devasting one punch hitter and could box better than most.
but i felt sad when he came out to fight ali and ali who is wieghing in around 220 is 6'3. ellis wanting to get the best shape possible worked his arse off and became a trim lean boxing machine at a spicy 190 pounds. now he might not be the best but he was so drasticly underwieght in the hardest division in years

as simple as looking on boxrec he was wieghing in at junior middlewieght for his first pro fight

[ripcity]

What dose your all time 176-200 lbs ranking look like?

[janitor]

Interesting side note.

I personaly believe that three of the four most effective heavyweight punchers of all time were under 200lbs.

1. Joe Louis
2. Jack Dempsey
3. Mike Tyson
4. Sam Langford

[Irish Steel]

I would say MArciano beats Louis, and dempsey beats Holyfield. The ROck comes out on top.

[ripcity]

Interesting side note.

I personaly believe that three of the four most effective heavyweight punchers of all time were under 200lbs.

1. Joe Louis
2. Jack Dempsey
3. Mike Tyson
4. Sam Langford
I'm sure at 5? 10? Mike Tyson could have made 176-200 lbs but his record shows that his lowest weight was 212 lbs.
Soory I miss-read your post.

[Minotauro]

Charles and Langford should be there instead of Jones and Toney, also Tunney and Jersey Joe Walcott should be listed.

[PowerPuncher]

1962 Muhammed Ali :D

[PowerPuncher]

Is Mike Spinks there???

[tays001]

I don´t hype anyone. You just don´t know much. Schmeling was the 2nd best hw from 1928 till 1938. That´s 10 years. In that time he beat every man he faced with the exception of Max Baer. Was the most consistent of all hw contenders with the exception of Joe Louis. He was very good counterpuncher with very good ring intelligence, a good defence and good power. A Top20 hw of all-time.

ps smileys don´t help your arguments, oh, well there were no arguments anyway.

NO SCHEMILING WAS SHIT AND ALL THE FIGHTERS ON THIS LEST WHOOPS HIS ASS

P.S MARCIANO SMASHES 7 SHADES OF SHIT OUT OF SCHMELLING LIKE THIS:vonnecunt

[Seamus]

I'm not the guy who will tell you Marciano beats Foreman, Bowe, Lewis or many of the modern behemoths. Head-to-Head he just doesn't match up.

BUT... taken in a pound for pound context, there is no fighter 200lbs or under who had the power, stamina, and fortitude of Marciano. I find the Marciano love-fest a little nauseous. However, he could beat any cruiser who ever bestrode this planet.

I would also argue Archie Moore deserves inclusion on the list, while Jack Johnson and especially James Toney deserve exclusion.

[cuchulain]

Yes, after that clear and very good argumentation of yours i can see the light, of course you are totaly right. How can i thank you for opening my eyes?


You've got to give him credit for his profound insights into the art of debate, especially his talent for point-by-point refutation of YOUR points. I would have taken your side but when I read that devastating counterpoint:

NO SCHEMILING WAS SHIT AND ALL THE FIGHTERS ON THIS LEST WHOOPS HIS ASS

I was so impressed with the capitalization, the punctuation and the spelling, not to mention the incisive logic, that I've changed my mind and I now award this side-debate to tays by KO!

[Vantage_West]

moore yes schemeling no he beat a green louis and then got :good ko'dthats very short sighted max was a great fighter
counter supreme onre of the few champions to always stay in shapein every fight.

his right hand would break bones cut faces rip retinas.

his chine was rock rock solid you had to be a big puncher to hurt him he went toe to toe against max baer and totally outboxed louis in what is considered the greatest heavywieght champion of all time even ali is just next to him in achievment

stopped joe louis
should of got the decision against jack sharkey
totally outboxed high ranking Paolino Uzcudun
the only man to stop oung stribling a very very very good defencive boxer
beat micky walker a very underated weight changing pound 4 pounder

as much as his championshopt history to say he was a great fighter in contender ranking he should of kept his championship his loss to max baer was a very equal fight. and it was only when baer threw everything except the kitchen sink till he struck gold and the small cruiserwieght frame was no strength advantage to the 6'6 super heavywieght. as baer just kept throwing left hands then backhanding on the way back.

[Vantage_West]

You've got to give him credit for his profound insights into the art of debate, especially his talent for point-by-point refutation of YOUR points. I would have taken your side but when I read that devastating counterpoint:

NO SCHEMILING WAS SHIT AND ALL THE FIGHTERS ON THIS LEST WHOOPS HIS ASS

I was so impressed with the capitalization, the punctuation and the spelling, not to mention the incisive logic, that I've changed my mind and I now award this side-debate to tays by KO!:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :respect

[Hawkeye]

Almost all of the heavyweight champions could make 200 if they fought today. With the day before weigh-in, only Carnera, Willard, and some of the biggest heavyweights couldn't make 200 and be back at their fighting weight by fight time. Liston, Ali, Holmes, Tyson, Frazier, etc. could all make 200.

[Vantage_West]

thing is 200 pounds is alot of wieght for a fit man if your fit enough or want to make cruiser i think you could do it.becuase most men dont have a wieght range heavy is easy on the diest and less running thats what toney thought i guess.

i think this is why cruiser is going to take of it's only now that fighters are making wieght being incredibly ft on the night and train to be athletes not at heavy anyone can have a crack at heavy