Joe Gans took a dive against Terry Mcgovern

[SuzieQ49]

That is my opinion due to facts. What's yours?

[bladerunner]

nobody can know for sure,but if he took a dive why did he kept getting up from all the knockdowns?

[janitor]

The strongest you can ever put it in a case like this is to say that "there is a substantial amount of circumstantial evidence that a dive took place".

The fighters involved usualy take the truth of the matter to their graves.

So, "There is a substantial amount of circumstantial evidence that a dive took place"

[ray fredrickson]

I wish I knew how to post,I have a 1950sRING,article RING DECETIVE by Great Dan Daniel. The answer was yes!!!! Joe needed money,was sick,Terrible Terry was unbeatable. The FIX killed fight game in CHICAGO FOR YEARS.tHEY HAVE PIX OF FIGHT. TO bad we dont have accurate fims back then. Was Terry that good???

[MrMarvel]

nobody can know for sure,but if he took a dive why did he kept getting up from all the knockdowns?

That's the question I have. When Johnson laid down, he laid down. Did Gans thinking flopping around the ring would make it look more convincing? If so, I think he was on to something.

[mcvey]

I believe it was a fix, proving it is something else.

[MrMarvel]

Whatever the case, neither of them impress, and the film isn't bad, considering. You can judge their abilities.
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[Mendoza]

I think the fight was on the level. We are lucky to have clear and up close film. The first knockdown is the key. McGovern lands a looping hook to the ear of Gans, then Gans’ keens buckle, and he falls. This looks like a natural fall. Gans gets up his equilibrium is off, and tries to fight back, but McGovern was a bantamweight version Joe Frazier with power in both hands. Some of the knockdowns there after are good shots. If it were a fix, Gans could have simply taken the count on some of those knockdowns. The ref ( Siler who loved Gans ) escorted a woozy Joe Gans to his corner after round one. This is a no-no, then the same ref who was fond of Gans the fighter says the fix was in the next day.

[janitor]

If you do think that the fight was on the level then it was (for McGovern) one of, if not the greatest pound for pound wins of all time.

[klompton]

I have a mint copy of this fight in its entirety and its so fake its ridiculous. Gans goes down the first time from a punch that doesnt land, it loops behind his head. I did a frame by frame study of the film for J. J. Johnson's book on Chicago Boxing and several of the frames were printed in the book to illustrate how ridiculous it was. There is absolutely no doubt whatsoever in my mind that this fight was thrown by Gans.

[he grant]

Of course it was thrown. Gans was not simply a much bigger man but a far better pound for pound fighter ... like many great fighters in his day he carried opponents and threw a few. He was known for it ... read the post fight coverage from the day ... the writers crucified Gans for throwing it ...

[Mendoza]

I have a mint copy of this fight in its entirety and its so fake its ridiculous. Gans goes down the first time from a punch that doesnt land, it loops behind his head. I did a frame by frame study of the film for J. J. Johnson's book on Chicago Boxing and several of the frames were printed in the book to illustrate how ridiculous it was. There is absolutely no doubt whatsoever in my mind that this fight was thrown by Gans.


I think McGovern lands some good shots long before the knockdown happens. Keep in mind, McGovern was the classic two fisted attacking swarmer, vs a boxer puncher type. The style advantage here is McGoverns.

I know a thing or two about film, and going on frames of a 100+ year old film to prove anything is very dicey. The film was likely shot at 16 to 24 frames per second. Do you have all frames crystal clear and with none of them showing the punch landing?

Also, what do you think of my point with McGovern landing near the ear region causing Gans to lose his balance?

[Dempsey1238]

I have a mint copy of this fight in its entirety and its so fake its ridiculous. Gans goes down the first time from a punch that doesnt land, it loops behind his head. I did a frame by frame study of the film for J. J. Johnson's book on Chicago Boxing and several of the frames were printed in the book to illustrate how ridiculous it was. There is absolutely no doubt whatsoever in my mind that this fight was thrown by Gans.

You ever watch thsos 1920's football games with Red Grange??

Evey time some one kick the ball, it disspares? Never seen in the air until some one catchs it? or not catch it.

I belive the frame were Johnson kos Ketchal is missing on the film. It was hand crank, so there is bound to be missing frames I belive.

[Russell]

If you do think that the fight was on the level then it was (for McGovern) one of, if not the greatest pound for pound wins of all time.

Why, exactly?

[klompton]

You can believe what you want but that fight was a monumental fix that resulted in boxing being KILLED in Chicago for twenty years. The film clearly shows Gans going down from punches that dont land. Gans! A guy who could take the best punches of men much larger and harder hitting than McGovern. Its not like Chicago just up and decided that the fight was fishy and banned boxing, EVERYONE knew it was a fix, it was the worst kept secret. If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck its a duck and this fight was the biggest damn duck in boxing history for years before and years after.

[sweet_scientist]

Even if I thought Joe Gans was a glass jawed bum I'd still have a hard time swallowing that fight as the real deal. Knowing what we know about Gans you'd have to be crazy to believe that fight was on the level.

[Seamus]

You can believe what you want but that fight was a monumental fix that resulted in boxing being KILLED in Chicago for twenty years. The film clearly shows Gans going down from punches that dont land. Gans! A guy who could take the best punches of men much larger and harder hitting than McGovern. Its not like Chicago just up and decided that the fight was fishy and banned boxing, EVERYONE knew it was a fix, it was the worst kept secret. If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck its a duck and this fight was the biggest damn duck in boxing history for years before and years after.


It's funny because I read a lot about this "fight" long before I ever saw it. Then when I actually saw the film, my only thought was what an assbeating Gans took. It just doesn't make sense.

[JimmyShimmy]

I think the biggest evidence of this fight being a fix is that Gans had a fantastic defence and always kept his range whereas in this fight he just seems to let McGovern get near him.

[Mendoza]

You can believe what you want but that fight was a monumental fix that resulted in boxing being KILLED in Chicago for twenty years. The film clearly shows Gans going down from punches that dont land. Gans! A guy who could take the best punches of men much larger and harder hitting than McGovern. Its not like Chicago just up and decided that the fight was fishy and banned boxing, EVERYONE knew it was a fix, it was the worst kept secret. If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck its a duck and this fight was the biggest damn duck in boxing history for years before and years after.

Boxing was banned in many towns during that time period. Fans also booed early KO wins. Tyson vs Spinks, or Marciano vs Walcott II might have been called a fix back then.

[Mendoza]

I think the biggest evidence of this fight being a fix is that Gans had a fantastic defence and always kept his range whereas in this fight he just seems to let McGovern get near him.

Yes, but McGovern was a dynamic attack dog type of fighter with pretty good speed too. Ali could dance around flat foots, but not Frazier. I think the same applies to Gans, who was not as mobile as Ali.

[klompton]

It's funny because I read a lot about this "fight" long before I ever saw it. Then when I actually saw the film, my only thought was what an assbeating Gans took. It just doesn't make sense.


Yeah, the breeze from all of those missed punches that were flooring Gans must have been brutal :roll: imagine the headcold he had after that fight...

[JimmyShimmy]

Yes, but McGovern was a dynamic attack dog type of fighter with pretty good speed too. Ali could dance around flat foots, but not Frazier. I think the same applies to Gans, who was not as mobile as Ali.

I agree with you on the part of McGovern but Gans just looked really lethargic from the start, usually he was as sharp as a tac and ready to box box box.

There is no panic from his part either; he gets hit, goes down, gets hit again, goes down. He looked like he was taking the beating on purpose.

I can see why you may see it as real, but it also looks really weird.

[Seamus]

Yeah, the breeze from all of those missed punches that were flooring Gans must have been brutal :roll: imagine the headcold he had after that fight...

There's no way in hell- given the quality of that film- that you can definitively say punches are missing. He is certainly getting nailed at the end of the first round when the action is closest to the camera and his head is getting knocked back from the punches.

Now, I am not claiming this is not a fixed fight. The reaction in Chicago is proof enough for me. My only question is why did he take the punishment it appears that he did indeed take.

[janitor]

Why, exactly?

A bantemweight blasting out a consensus top 3 all time lightweight early would have to rate as a fairly respectable win.

If McGovern did this then his pound for pound ranking should be off the scale.

[SuzieQ49]

A bantemweight blasting out a consensus top 3 all time lightweight early would have to rate as a fairly respectable win.

If McGovern did this then his pound for pound ranking should be off the scale.

agreed.

[Minotauro]

I've always thought it was a dive especially when you consider the time it was in, it was not uncommon.

[Dempsey1238]

Even if I thought Joe Gans was a glass jawed bum I'd still have a hard time swallowing that fight as the real deal. Knowing what we know about Gans you'd have to be crazy to believe that fight was on the level.

Did you think Tyson Seldon was on the level?? :lol:
Tyson ko Seldon with a punch he miss imo.

[klompton]

There's no way in hell- given the quality of that film- that you can definitively say punches are missing. He is certainly getting nailed at the end of the first round when the action is closest to the camera and his head is getting knocked back from the punches.

Now, I am not claiming this is not a fixed fight. The reaction in Chicago is proof enough for me. My only question is why did he take the punishment it appears that he did indeed take.


I dont know what you are watching but my copy is clear and clearly shows Gans going down from a punch that litterally loops around his head and misses. Those old films arent HBO quality but give me a break the people who say there are missing frames of Ketchel-Johnson knockdown and of this are so off base its ridiculous. Dont piss in my pocket and tell me its raining the films are clear enough to have captured more than a few suspicious incidents in history.

[Seamus]

I dont know what you are watching but my copy is clear and clearly shows Gans going down from a punch that litterally loops around his head and misses. Those old films arent HBO quality but give me a break the people who say there are missing frames of Ketchel-Johnson knockdown and of this are so off base its ridiculous. Dont piss in my pocket and tell me its raining the films are clear enough to have captured more than a few suspicious incidents in history.

That particular punch looks as though it clips him on the back of the head but before that, and what led up to the KD was a McGovern breaking through his defense with power shots. KD's are more likely not 1 shot "highlight reel" shots but attrition results. If you can't see that, try badmiton. And piss in your own pocket, mate.

[klompton]

If you want to believe that one of the greatest fighters pound for pound in the history of the sport lost by knockout from punches that werent even landing to a much smaller man at the tail end of his career who never won another significant fight much less never again knocked out another top fighter. Then I dont need to piss in my own pocket Ive got people gullible enough like you to do it for me...

[flamengo]

If you want to believe that one of the greatest fighters pound for pound in the history of the sport lost by knockout from punches that werent even landing to a much smaller man at the tail end of his career who never won another significant fight much less never again knocked out another top fighter. Then I dont need to piss in my own pocket Ive got people gullible enough like you to do it for me...

I think we need to view your copy mate... in slow motion would be great... perhaps to settle a few arguements.

A sweet upper cut and smashing right hand looks to have completely stiffed Gans also. He never appeared in the same time zone afterwards..... yet his composure after the fight was stopped, looks non-flusted.... scratchy film??

[Senya13]

Gans was badly hurt or dazed against Dal Hawkins, who was much harder puncher at lightweight than McGovern, but Joe fought back furiously in both fights.

[sweet_scientist]

Did you think Tyson Seldon was on the level?? :lol:
Tyson ko Seldon with a punch he miss imo.

That was a case of being knocked out by fear :D