Pernell Whitaker vs Sugar Ray Leonard

[Sweet Science]

If they fought at 147.

Whitaker from 1993 around the time of his 1st fight with Chavez.

vs

Leonard from 1981 during the time he fought Hearns the 1st time.


Who wins and the reasons for your choice please.

[GazOC]

Leonard. Size, punch and, to a lesser extent, chin.

[Holmes' Jab]

I voted Leonard as well, by wafer thin decision. Mainly due to the points Gaz highlighted. :good

[red cobra]

One of the hardest mythical matchups to opine on that I can think of.

[Holmes' Jab]

One of the hardest mythical matchups to opine on that I can think of.

Correct. If this one went to a the scorecards (a likely outcome) it would likely be a highly controversial/difficult to make verdict either way.

[FlatNose]

It would be difficult for Leonard, but h'd have the luxery of being able to hurt Whittaker, but not having to fear Pernells punching power that much.Sweet Pea will be able to nullify much of Sugar Rays effectiveness, however so it would boil down to a decision , with Leonards aggression and flashy showy combinations and flurrys catching the judges eye and earning him a decision.

[achillesthegreat]

I'd definitely go with Leonard. Leonard was the bigger man yet had all of the attributes Pernell had as a smaller fighter. Leonard was faster, had agility, co-ordination etc

Leonard would fight smart like he did Benitez. It would be nip and tuck but Leonard would be confident in letting his hands go. I feel Pernell may keep his at home a little, like he did v DLH.

Leonard 8-4.

[Duodenum]

Normally, I'd automatically take the boxer with the 15 round credentials, but Whitaker is a very special case. Ayub Kalule and Larry Bonds demonstrated that southpaws could expose serious technical deficiencies in SRL, and Pernell may be the most skilled southpaw enshrined in Canastota. Benitez, Duran and Shields gave Ray headaches with their defensive skill at exploiting his characteristic telegraphy, and Whitaker was certainly one of, if not the absolute best defensive southpaw in the history of the sport. Nor did he have Benitez's frail chin when he did get hit. ("The best are those who can take a punch, but don't have to."-Benny Leonard)

This would go the 15 round distance, and Whitaker would outmaneuver and outbox Ray, much as Hearns did in their WW unification epic. The difference here would be that Pernell withstands SRL's late surge, and hangs around long enough to hear the final bell. Like Hopkins, Whitaker is one who would have benefited from having the championship distance remain intact. Ray would not have been able to solve the puzzle posed by a leftie of Pernell's speed, skill and caliber.

Whitaker UD 15 SRL

[Robbi]

Normally, I'd automatically take the boxer with the 15 round credentials, but Whitaker is a very special case. Ayub Kalule and Larry Bonds demonstrated that southpaws could expose serious technical deficiencies in SRL, and Pernell may be the most skilled southpaw enshrined in Canastota. Benitez, Duran and Shields gave Ray headaches with their defensive skill at exploiting his characteristic telegraphy, and Whitaker was certainly one of, if not the absolute best defensive southpaw in the history of the sport. Nor did he have Benitez's frail chin when he did get hit. ("The best are those who can take a punch, but don't have to."-Benny Leonard)

This would go the 15 round distance, and Whitaker would outmaneuver and outbox Ray, much as Hearns did in their WW unification epic. The difference here would be that Pernell withstands SRL's late surge, and hangs around long enough to hear the final bell. Like Hopkins, Whitaker is one who would have benefited from having the championship distance remain intact. Ray would not have been able to solve the puzzle posed by a leftie of Pernell's speed, skill and caliber.

Whitaker UD 15 SRL

Not just one of the best defensive defensive southpaws in the history of the sport. While thats true, best putting it "he was one of the best defensive prize fighters in history".

Yeah, in the same class as the recently deceased Willie Pep, who happened to have over 200 fights.

[JohnThomas1]

Normally, I'd automatically take the boxer with the 15 round credentials, but Whitaker is a very special case. Ayub Kalule and Larry Bonds demonstrated that southpaws could expose serious technical deficiencies in SRL, and Pernell may be the most skilled southpaw enshrined in Canastota.

Leonard was leading Bonds by 90-80 on two of 3 judges cards before stopping him in round 10. This means they gave him every round, plus a point on top. That's some serious technical deficiency. Kalule was admittedly a handful, but as they used to say, Sugar Ray will always finds a way ;) Good win over an awkward bigger man.

Then we have Hagler, top 3 Middleweight ever and southpaw. A much more difficult prospect than Sweet Pea at 147. Skill will only take Pernell so far against the bigger man who also happens to be just as fast.

Benitez, Duran and Shields gave Ray headaches with their defensive skill at exploiting his characteristic telegraphy

Telegraphy? Jesus H lol. I'd call this nitpicking, but nitpicking contains an element of truth. For the record, Benitez, Duran and Shields gave many fine fighters headaches. Leonard should be lauded for beating Benitez, a big step up for him. How someone could find criticism there i'll never know. Well Rooster i'd expect it from. Scores from the Shields fight, 49-43, 47-44, 48-45. Looks like Shields defensive skill was just a little too prominent.

and Whitaker was certainly one of, if not the absolute best defensive southpaw in the history of the sport.

Couldn't agree more, and he was also a natural 135 pounder without neither Duran's ability to irk Leonard out of a decent gameplan or match him physically at the higher weight.

Nor did he have Benitez's frail chin when he did get hit.

It wasn't Wilfred's frail chin that lost it, Leonard had an unassailable lead going into the 15th round and had convincingly outboxed Benitez to all unbiased viewers.



This would go the 15 round distance, and Whitaker would outmaneuver and outbox Ray, much as Hearns did in their WW unification epic. The difference here would be that Pernell withstands SRL's late surge, and hangs around long enough to hear the final bell.

Never mind Tommy was the hardest hitting 147 ever, likely had the best 147 jab ever if not P4P, was 7 inches taller than Sweet Pea and had the reach of a light heavyweight. Of course he also carried 147 rather easily as well, but we can forget all this of course and imagine a bout with Pernell going the same way excepting the fight saving stoppage :good

Like Hopkins, Whitaker is one who would have benefited from having the championship distance remain intact.

Totally agree, but SRL of course was a great 15 round fighter as well as proven.

Ray would not have been able to solve the puzzle posed by a leftie of Pernell's speed, skill and caliber.

Redrooster would be proud :D

[Robbi]

Normally, I'd automatically take the boxer with the 15 round credentials, but Whitaker is a very special case. Ayub Kalule and Larry Bonds demonstrated that southpaws could expose serious technical deficiencies in SRL, and Pernell may be the most skilled southpaw enshrined in Canastota. Benitez, Duran and Shields gave Ray headaches with their defensive skill at exploiting his characteristic telegraphy, and Whitaker was certainly one of, if not the absolute best defensive southpaw in the history of the sport. Nor did he have Benitez's frail chin when he did get hit. ("The best are those who can take a punch, but don't have to."-Benny Leonard)

This would go the 15 round distance, and Whitaker would outmaneuver and outbox Ray, much as Hearns did in their WW unification epic. The difference here would be that Pernell withstands SRL's late surge, and hangs around long enough to hear the final bell. Like Hopkins, Whitaker is one who would have benefited from having the championship distance remain intact. Ray would not have been able to solve the puzzle posed by a leftie of Pernell's speed, skill and caliber.

Whitaker UD 15 SRL

I feel that Hopkins would have beaten Leonard at middleweight. Although Hopkins' aint a southpaw, he's a superb defensive fighter. He's got the height and reach of Hearns, and Hagler's strength and toughness. Like Leonard himself, Hopkins is a smart thinking fighter.

Whitaker would have put up a game effort against Leonard at welterweight. But not quite good enough. Not Whitaker's prime weight. He became more flat-footed, and overall speed of hand and foot was not the same as two divisions below.

Whitaker was so good at lightweight, I take him to beat Duran. Very slick indeed. Complete.

[JohnThomas1]

I feel that Hopkins would have beaten Leonard at middleweight. Although Hopkins' aint a southpaw, he's a superb defensive fighter. He's got the height and reach of Hearns, and Hagler's strength and toughness. Like Leonard himself, Hopkins is a smart thinking fighter.

Whitaker would have put up a game effort against Leonard at welterweight. But not quite good enough. Not Whitaker's prime weight. He became more flat-footed, and overall speed of hand and foot was not the same as two divisions below.

Whitaker was so good at lightweight, I take him to beat Duran. Very slick indeed. Complete.

Good post, and truth be told Leonard would be more of a stoppage danger to Pernell than anyone he ever fought, including Tito. His sheer class allied to his size advantage makes him uber dangerous here. He puncher far faster and better in combination than a Chavez. Pernell's great skill would likely get him thru, but the danger is apparent.

[Titan1]

I'm picking Ray by late stoppage or decsion.He is faster, punches harder, and can take a punch (not that he would have to worry about anything Pernell threw). For me, Whitaker always had a shaky chin and if Ray caught him and hurt him, it's over. But more likely, he'll make it to the final bell, and Ray would get a unanimous decision.

[brooklyn1550]

Sugar Ray Leonard by decision

[jyuza]

Leonard was leading Bonds by 90-80 on two of 3 judges cards before stopping him in round 10. This means they gave him every round, plus a point on top. That's some serious technical deficiency. Kalule was admittedly a handful, but as they used to say, Sugar Ray will always finds a way ;) Good win over an awkward bigger man.

Then we have Hagler, top 3 Middleweight ever and southpaw. A much more difficult prospect than Sweet Pea at 147. Skill will only take Pernell so far against the bigger man who also happens to be just as fast.



Telegraphy? Jesus H lol. I'd call this nitpicking, but nitpicking contains an element of truth. For the record, Benitez, Duran and Shields gave many fine fighters headaches. Leonard should be lauded for beating Benitez, a big step up for him. How someone could find criticism there i'll never know. Well Rooster i'd expect it from. Scores from the Shields fight, 49-43, 47-44, 48-45. Looks like Shields defensive skill was just a little too prominent.



Couldn't agree more, and he was also a natural 135 pounder without neither Duran's ability to irk Leonard out of a decent gameplan or match him physically at the higher weight.



It wasn't Wilfred's frail chin that lost it, Leonard had an unassailable lead going into the 15th round and had convincingly outboxed Benitez to all unbiased viewers.



Never mind Tommy was the hardest hitting 147 ever, likely had the best 147 jab ever if not P4P, was 7 inches taller than Sweet Pea and had the reach of a light heavyweight. Of course he also carried 147 rather easily as well, but we can forget all this of course and imagine a bout with Pernell going the same way excepting the fight saving stoppage :good



Totally agree, but SRL of course was a great 15 round fighter as well as proven.



Redrooster would be proud :D

Perfect post. :good:thumbsup:clap:

Now, who the hell is that chick in your avatar ?

[Bad_Intentions]

this is hard.

whitaker would make leonard look bad in a couple of rounds with his magnificent defense (bopping and weaving around). but in the later rounds i see leonard winning the fight.

Leonard UD 12th round

[achillesthegreat]

Whitaker more times then not couldn't or didn't recapture the magic he displayed at 135.

[Duodenum]

Leonard was leading Bonds by 90-80 on two of 3 judges cards before stopping him in round 10. This means they gave him every round, plus a point on top. That's some serious technical deficiency. Kalule was admittedly a handful, but as they used to say, Sugar Ray will always finds a way ;) Good win over an awkward bigger man.Bonds was to Ray what Mildenberger was to Ali, somebody who would have been taken out in a third of the time if boxing from an orthodox stance.Then we have Hagler, top 3 Middleweight ever and southpaw. A much more difficult prospect than Sweet Pea at 147. Skill will only take Pernell so far against the bigger man who also happens to be just as fast.But Hagler was a past prime switch hitter who inexplicably started their match from an orthodox stance. A little later on, Marv was indeed better boxing Ray as a southpaw.Telegraphy? Jesus H lol. I'd call this nitpicking, but nitpicking contains an element of truth. For the record, Benitez, Duran and Shields gave many fine fighters headaches. Leonard should be lauded for beating Benitez, a big step up for him. How someone could find criticism there i'll never know. Well Rooster i'd expect it from. Scores from the Shields fight, 49-43, 47-44, 48-45. Looks like Shields defensive skill was just a little too prominent.Yes, it most certainly is nitpicking, but against a defensive wizard of Whitaker's caliber, this tiny pebble would grow into a boulder. (I refuse to use the princess and the pea parable when discussing Pernell. Too easy and unimaginative.)Couldn't agree more, and he was also a natural 135 pounder without neither Duran's ability to irk Leonard out of a decent gameplan or match him physically at the higher weight.Do you really believe Whitaker would contemplate trying to match him physically? Ray would begin to imagine that Pernell was dematerializing after a few rounds.It wasn't Wilfred's frail chin that lost it, Leonard had an unassailable lead going into the 15th round and had convincingly outboxed Benitez to all unbiased viewers.No, during Carlos Padilla's prefight instructions, Ray whispered to Wilfred, "If you let me win the title, I'll let you date my hot sister!" Deal!
Never mind Tommy was the hardest hitting 147 ever, likely had the best 147 jab ever if not P4P, was 7 inches taller than Sweet Pea and had the reach of a light heavyweight. Of course he also carried 147 rather easily as well, but we can forget all this of course and imagine a bout with Pernell going the same way excepting the fight saving stoppage :goodI tend to favor the bone fracturing Cuevas as the hardest hitting WW ever, but unlike Tommy, Jose was never in a position of being able to hit without getting hit. Duran certainly showed that a former featherweight (remember, Cholo KO ten Marcel) with a non light heavyweight reach could also outpoint SRL handily over 15.Totally agree, but SRL of course was a great 15 round fighter as well as proven.How the heck did I wind up making a case for a 12 round fighter anyways? (Juvenile Dementia most likely.)Redrooster would be proud :DThanks for blowing my cover! (How'd you figure out my true identity anyway?):oops:

Sincerely,

Redrooster D.

[Street Lethal]

Whitaker has too much talent. Leonard wouldn't be able to figure him out. But I suspect the judges would give the fight to Leonard anyway.

[Robbi]

I'm picking Ray by late stoppage or decsion.He is faster, punches harder, and can take a punch (not that he would have to worry about anything Pernell threw). For me, Whitaker always had a shaky chin and if Ray caught him and hurt him, it's over. But more likely, he'll make it to the final bell, and Ray would get a unanimous decision.

Whitaker never had a shakey chin. His knockdowns were usually because he was crouching down low and getting clipped on the top of the head, combined with being off balance in an unorthodox way. He was always up as quickly as possible.

I'm not saying Leonard couldn't stop Whitaker at welterweight, but Whitaker's defense and smart ring generalship would make life difficult for him to achieve such a feat.

[ripcity]

The verision of Pernell Whitaker who domanated Chavez vs the Version of Sugar Ray Leonard who made Duran quit and beat Hearns. I don't have a solid answer. I'm sure I will get some disagrement with this but I think Whitaker is slightly better than Leonard at 147. However Whitaker could not clame domance over Leonard, and Leonard was defently a big fight boxer.
I honestly think if they were to fight 10 times they could easly go 5-5.

[Robbi]

Since we are on the subject of Leonard and Whitaker. I feel that Whitaker is a more skilled all round fighter. But he was considerably slower at welterweight than at lightweight. Whitaker's perfomance against Chavez was a lovely display, but not what you would call "superfast" with his hands.

Leonard has the edges in speed and power at welterweight. Its an interesting fight, but one Leonard would win.

[Robbi]

Whitaker and Leonard. It sure is a fight with "TALENT" written all over it.

Whitaker's win over Vasquez is more impressive than Leonard's over Lalonde. Not in terms of how they won, but just moving up in weight against naturally much bigger opponents and pulling it off. Probably everyone would agree, Vasquez was a more accomplished fighter at 154lbs than Lalonde was at 175lbs. Thats the main reason I'm more impressed with Whitaker's win. Leonard against Lalonde was an event, with Whitaker's 12 round decision over Vasquez being another "simple" HBO date on their callendar.

[Sonny Carson]

It would be a draw and the judges would give the fight to Leonard.

[mcvey]

If they fought at 147.

Whitaker from 1993 around the time of his 1st fight with Chavez.

vs

Leonard from 1981 during the time he fought Hearns the 1st time.


Who wins and the reasons for your choice please.
Leonard was better at the weight imo so Leonard by dec.

[redrooster]

but as they used to say, Sugar Ray will always finds a way ;)

The word always was not applicable see---> Norris, Duran, Hearns, & Camacho

[Sweet Science]

Leonard was better at the weight imo so Leonard by dec.

I agree with you. I think it would defo go to the cards but IMO it would be a very tight decision for Leonard.

[Executioner]

The word always was not applicable see---> Norris, Duran, Hearns, & Camacho

:lol:



:rofl



:patsch



:verysad



:-(

[redrooster]

He did use the word "always" but does "always" mean over a short portion of a career in which he didn't lose any fights? because everyone has a streak going for them. Cuevas then always destroyed people until Hearns destroyed him.

I take Always to mean over the length of a career as was the case with Marciano or Bowe.

[robert ungurean]

Sweatpea has nothing Sugar Ray cant handle.
Leonard by UD

[Street Lethal]

It would be a draw and the judges would give the fight to Leonard.

Or Whitaker would win and the judges would call it a draw.

[Sweet Science]

Sweatpea has nothing Sugar Ray cant handle.
Leonard by UD

I don't think it would be that easy. I think Leonard would win but it would be one hell of a tight decision. Has Leonard ever faced a fighter as elusive and as defensively gifted as Whitaker? Even at 147 he was still very difficult to catch clean.

[Executioner]

I don't think it would be that easy. I think Leonard would win but it would be one hell of a tight decision. Has Leonard ever faced a fighter as elusive and as defensively gifted as Whitaker? Even at 147 he was still very difficult to catch clean.

Leonard fought Benitez, one of the most skilled, underrated and defensive specialists of all time.

[Sweet Science]

Leonard fought Benitez, one of the most skilled, underrated and defensive specialists of all time.

I think Whitaker's defence is better though, he was just so hard to hit with a clean shot.

[JohnThomas1]

Bonds was to Ray what Mildenberger was to Ali, somebody who would have been taken out in a third of the time if boxing from an orthodox stance.

So in essence you are criticising Leonard even tho

A. He won every round + on two cards.

B. Is coming off a great emotional high over Duran and is taking an easy defense that would obviously be hard to rise for.

C. Only stopped Bonds after 10.

Your comment that Ray would have taken out Bonds in 1/3 of the time if he was orthodox is sheer speculation and has no factual foundation.

But Hagler was a past prime switch hitter who inexplicably started their match from an orthodox stance. A little later on, Marv was indeed better boxing Ray as a southpaw.

Leonard was a past prime fighter who hadn't fought for years and was taking on the P4P king (who just happened to be far bigger naturally) with no warmup. That he even lasted the distance let alone outboxed Hagler is astonishing.

Yes, it most certainly is nitpicking, but against a defensive wizard of Whitaker's caliber, this tiny pebble would grow into a boulder. (I refuse to use the princess and the pea parable when discussing Pernell. Too easy and unimaginative.)


It's funny, in all of this you make no mention of the hurdle (bigger man, better chin, just as fast yada yada) Whitaker is facing, we only hear about Ray's fantacised and magnified weaknesses. The challenge here is with Whitaker, not SRL.

Do you really believe Whitaker would contemplate trying to match him physically? Ray would begin to imagine that Pernell was dematerializing after a few rounds.

If he dematerialized it's a SRL stoppage for sure. I make the point of Duran to let you know that tho Duran beat Leonard from 135, Pernell doesn't have the same tools to beat him that way. So he's left to outbox the bigger, stronger, more durable and just as fast and talented guy.

I tend to favor the bone fracturing Cuevas as the hardest hitting WW ever, but unlike Tommy, Jose was never in a position of being able to hit without getting hit. Duran certainly showed that a former featherweight (remember, Cholo KO ten Marcel) with a non light heavyweight reach could also outpoint SRL handily over 15.

As i explained, Whitaker ain't no Duran and cannot beat him in similar vein. Blind Freddy wouldn't debate that one.

[JohnThomas1]

I don't think it would be that easy. I think Leonard would win but it would be one hell of a tight decision. Has Leonard ever faced a fighter as elusive and as defensively gifted as Whitaker? Even at 147 he was still very difficult to catch clean.

Benitez gets a bit of short thrift nowadays too, back in the day he was a master boxer who excelled at counterpunching and was a defensive wizard. I think Whitaker matches him for defense, which is some praise. Benitez was pretty much all slipping where Pernell is great at both. I'd see Benitez as prolly the slightly stronger fighter at 147, he grew into a very well proportioned 154. The Leonard win over Benitez was a great one, regardless of age etc Benitez was definitely the more experienced warrior and would beat many great names at 147 historically. Leonard and Dundee came in with an absolutely brilliant gameplan based on taking away some of Wilfred's strengths.

[Robbi]

Benitez gets a bit of short thrift nowadays too, back in the day he was a master boxer who excelled at counterpunching and was a defensive wizard. I think Whitaker matches him for defense, which is some praise. Benitez was pretty much all slipping where Pernell is great at both. I'd see Benitez as prolly the slightly stronger fighter at 147, he grew into a very well proportioned 154. The Leonard win over Benitez was a great one, regardless of age etc Benitez was definitely the more experienced warrior and would beat many great names at 147 historically. Leonard and Dundee came in with an absolutely brilliant gameplan based on taking away some of Wilfred's strengths.

When you think of Leonard, its his fights with Duran, Hearns, and Hagler. The Benitez win gets overlooked sometimes. Benitez was a more experienced fighter at championship level. He'd been in with Cervantes and Palamino. I'm pretty sure Benitez was 25 at the time he fought Leonard, with Leonard 23. I might be wrong.

[Robbi]

Benitez winning a world title at 17 is a truely remarkable achievement. Some records in boxing are there for the taking, but I'm not too sure that particular one shall be broken in my lifetime. A geniune world title against an excellent fighter, Antonio Cervantes.

Fighters are doing well winning world titles at 22-23 years of age these days.