David Haye - Where does he rank?

[TommyV]

I know there's a lot of Haye threads floating around but just wanted to ask some questions.

Where would you currently have him in your heavyweight list? Is he top 5 with guys like Wlad, Vitali, Povetkin & Chagaev? Or does he still have to prove himself at heavyweight, and fail to make your top 10?

Where do you currently have him on a P4P list? Does his accomplishments at cruiserweight get him into a top 15? Top 20?

Finally, where would you rank him as an ATG, on a P4P scale, if he were to: Beat Wladimir Klitschko twice, having been forced into a rematch, both by mid-round knockout, defend against mandatory Alexander Povetkin, stopping him mid-rounds, then beat Vitali Klitschko, via late stoppage, and retire?

Taking into account his previous status as undisputed cruiserweight champion of the world, being only the 2nd man along with the great Evander Holyfield to have achieved undisputed status in both divisions.

[FLINT ISLAND]

I know there's a lot of Haye threads floating around but just wanted to ask some questions.

Where would you currently have him in your heavyweight list? Is he top 5 with guys like Wlad, Vitali, Povetkin & Chagaev? Or does he still have to prove himself at heavyweight, and fail to make your top 10?

Where do you currently have him on a P4P list? Does his accomplishments at cruiserweight get him into a top 15? Top 20?

Finally, where would you rank him as an ATG, on a P4P scale, if he were to: Beat Wladimir Klitschko twice, having been forced into a rematch, both by mid-round knockout, defend against mandatory Alexander Povetkin, stopping him mid-rounds, then beat Vitali Klitschko, via late stoppage, and retire?

Taking into account his previous status as undisputed cruiserweight champion of the world, being only the 2nd man along with the great Evander Holyfield to have achieved undisputed status in both divisions.

anything subject like pound for pound lists or ATG lists are very subjective

so facts and figures dont tel, the story

the manner of the victory is what counts more than anything else

so even if Haye TKO 6 Wlad - it dont tell you how the fight really went or the greatness of Haye

just wait and see and watch the fight and see the performance to be able to judge how good a heavyweight haye is

[SouthpawSlayer]

right now i have him 7th in the hw division

[stuey]

currently,on the strength of being undisputed cruiser champ,he is top 7 perhaps 5 heavyweight.

above him ?
klit
klit
valuev
povetkin

you could argue that ruiz and chambers ought to be too.

he is still largely unproven at heavy, so top seven is fair.

[TommyV]

anything subject like pound for pound lists or ATG lists are very subjective

so facts and figures dont tel, the story

the manner of the victory is what counts more than anything else

so even if Haye TKO 6 Wlad - it dont tell you how the fight really went or the greatness of Haye

just wait and see and watch the fight and see the performance to be able to judge how good a heavyweight haye is

Not really, guys don't take into account exact performances when doing P4P lists, like it doesn't matter whether Haye was to lose round 5 or not.

[doug.ie]

watching setanta right now...turned on and bunce has a list of the currents heavyweights up...and he has haye at number 4..ahead of valuev...

now..i wish haye all the best in june..and i realise he is a former cruiser champ...but number 4 in a list of current heavys is just plain wrong.

[D-MAC]

Boxing Monthly have him at No.4 (behind Chagaev and the Klits), and I wouldn't really argue with that.

Povetkin also has a good shot at being ranked above him.

No.5 sounds about right to me.

[FLINT ISLAND]

Not really, guys don't take into account exact performances when doing P4P lists, like it doesn't matter whether Haye was to lose round 5 or not.

What I mean was - when Roy Jones was at his his peak I and most other people rated his as pound for pound no 1.

There were other really good fighters about with impressive records at thre time like

Felix Trindad
Naseem Hamed
Marco Antonio Barrera
Lennox Lewis
Joe Calzaghe
Oscar De La Hoya

But Jones was rated the NO1 because his the level of quality of his performances and the manner of his victory's gave the impression he was the greatest fighter about

So to just say

Haye TKO 6 Wlad

does not tell you the level of his performance and the manner of his victory which is crucial when rating ATG lists

if statisics were all that counted - Sven Ottke would be the greatest :lol:

[stuey]

i really dont see the fuss with chageav. very ordinary,and injury/sick prone for me.

[D-MAC]

i really dont see the fuss with chageav. very ordinary,and injury/sick prone for me.

I disagree Stuey.

Not about the injury prone bit, obviously. But I think he is the most technically sound fighter in the division. The way he handled Valuev was masterful; he's a very good ring general. I like the lad.

[Mace, Joe]

In my heavyweight list based on what he's done? Somewhere in the top 20.

[stuey]

I disagree Stuey.

Not about the injury prone bit, obviously. But I think he is the most technically sound fighter in the division. The way he handled Valuev was masterful; he's a very good ring general. I like the lad.


yet against skelton and ruiz (admittedly tough fighters tolook good against) he sucked balls.

[TFFP]

About 30.

He's done nothing. How do you rank a guy thats done next to nothing. Monte Barrett? :lol: Who is Bonin?

[D-MAC]

About 30.

He's done nothing. How do you rank a guy thats done next to nothing. Monte Barrett? :lol: Who is Bonin?

But his body of work at CW has to be factored in, because past accomplishments for other fighters in lower divisions seem to have a bearing when they move up.

Plus, HW is a piss poor division.

[mbrockett]

it is easy to see why people would have haye above valuev - because valuev really is a joke with a joke career and is a joke world champion. he cant even hit hard. since all these 'lists' are subjective as is stated many a time on here, i dont see a problem with haye being rated above him.

i dont bother with lists myself as boxing is a head 2 head sport, not a league. one man can beat a man, who beat a man, who beat the first man. it really doesnt make sense to say 'i have him at 7'. maybe a better question would be 'who out of the top heavies would haye beat?' and even then you would have to clarify between: could, would, and favourite to.

but then again this is a boxing discussion forum and if it wasnt interesting i wouldnt log on... so... as you are...

[D-MAC]

yet against skelton and ruiz (admittedly tough fighters to look good against) he sucked balls.

Need I say more.

[FLINT ISLAND]

About 30.

He's done nothing. How do you rank a guy thats done next to nothing. Monte Barrett? :lol: Who is Bonin?


But this also is when manner of victory comes into it Eskimo

He crucified Bonin in 1 rd way more impressive than Audley

And he smashed up Barret quicker than Wlad

Top 10 I would say

[doug.ie]

4 is too high for me.

[D-MAC]

4 is too high for me.

Think of the division though.

Valuev is ranked at 5, Ibragimov is at 6 and John Ruiz is at 9.

It would pain me to put Haye below those puddings.

[rossd1506]

I think hed take care of Povetkin. Still not sure about the Klits tho.

[TFFP]

But his body of work at CW has to be factored in, because past accomplishments for other fighters in lower divisions seem to have a bearing when they move up.

Plus, HW is a piss poor division.
Why does his body of work at cruiserweight have anything to do with anything, except at cruiserweight? It's rare a cruiserweight does anything at heavy, history speaks for that, so in that respect it means shit.

And the fact he hasn't beaten anybody makes ranking him absurd. What are we ranking him above other heavyweights for, even if they're bad? At least many of these have wins over heavyweights better than Monte Barrett.

[D-MAC]

(1)Why does his body of work at cruiserweight have anything to do with anything, except at cruiserweight? It's rare a cruiserweight does anything at heavy, history speaks for that, so in that respect it means shit.

(2) And the fact he hasn't beaten anybody makes ranking him absurd. What are we ranking him above other heavyweights for, even if they're bad? (3) At least many of these have wins over heavyweights better than Monte Barrett.

(1) A boxer who has a TKO win over the number 1 in the division below in the opponent's own backyard (ie: Haye against Mormeck) is obviously going to gain a bit of leverage when he moves up to fight at HW. That much is obvious. If a fighter moves up a division his record doesn't, all of a sudden, revert to 0-0 status. His body of work in his career so far has to be taken into account.

(2) Both Bonin and Barrett would have been comfortably inside the top 30 HW's currently operating (No. 30 being were you rank Haye).

(3) Nikolai Valuev? The number 5? What are his outstanding wins? He took longer to get rid of Barrett, his display against Holyfield was frankly embarrasing to say the least, and he is quite possibly the worst belt-holder in world boxing. And, despite the scorecards, Chagaev made him look what he is.........an uneducated baboon of a fighter.

[TFFP]

(1) A boxer who has a TKO win over the number 1 in the division below in the opponent's own backyard (ie: Haye against Mormeck) is obviously going to gain a bit of leverage when he moves up to fight at HW. That much is obvious. If a fighter moves up a division his record doesn't, all of a sudden, revert to 0-0 status. His body of work in his career so far has to be taken into account.

(2) Both Bonin and Barrett would have been comfortably inside the top 30 HW's currently operating (No. 30 being were you rank Haye).

(3) Nikolai Valuev? The number 5? What are his outstanding wins? He took longer to get rid of Barrett, his display against Holyfield was frankly embarrasing to say the least, and he is quite possibly the worst belt-holder in world boxing. And, despite the scorecards, Chagaev made him look what he is.........an uneducated baboon of a fighter.
(1) Not really. Fighting cruiserweights is a lot different to fighting heavyweights. It's not the same as moving from 135 to 140. He does not revert to 0-0, because we know he's a good fighter. We don't know he's a good heavyweight.

(2) Bonin, really? I'd never even heard of that guy. He had a resume twice as padded as Valero's. Barrett maybe...he's still crap and noway near a top 10.

(3) Rather than talk about Valuev's "outstanding" wins, we could just talk about his wins, and David Haye's wins.

W12 Holyfield :-(
W12 Ruiz
W12 Lyakhovich
WRTD McCline
WTKO Barrett
W12 Ruiz
W12 Donald
W12 Bidenko

W TKO1 Bonin
W TKO5 Barrett

This is fairly conclusive.

[D-MAC]

(1) Not really. Fighting cruiserweights is a lot different to fighting heavyweights. It's not the same as moving from 135 to 140. He does not revert to 0-0, because we know he's a good fighter. (a) We don't know he's a good heavyweight.

(2) Bonin, really? I'd never even heard of that guy. (b) He had a resume twice as padded as Valero's. Barrett maybe...he's still crap and noway near a top 10.

(3) (c) Rather than talk about Valuev's "outstanding" wins, we could just talk about his wins, and David Haye's wins.

W12 Holyfield :-(
W12 Ruiz
W12 Lyakhovich
WRTD McCline
WTKO Barrett
W12 Ruiz
W12 Donald
W12 Bidenko

W TKO1 Bonin
W TKO5 Barrett

This is fairly conclusive.

(a) But, we can surmise that he is a lot better than the rest of the detritus at HW. Of course his CW reign comes into effect here.

(b) Twice as padded as Valero's record still qualifies Bonin for top 20 status in the crap HW division.

(c)
W12 Holyfield
W12 Ruiz
W12 Lyakhovich
WRTD McCline
WTKO Barrett
W12 Ruiz
W12 Donald
W12 Bidenko

Would I fancy Haye to beat most of those guys........YES.

Would I think that Haye would be a big betting favourite to beat most of those guys.........YES.

I would fancy Haye to beat Jameel McCline, even if he had both his kneecaps in place.

I can't believe you're throwing Larry Donald at me here.

Give praise were praise is due here. John Ruiz is No.9 in the divsion at the moment; you can't honestly tell me that you would put Haye below him?

[TFFP]

(a) But, we can surmise that he is a lot better than the rest of the detritus at HW. Of course his CW reign comes into effect here.

(b) Twice as padded as Valero's record still qualifies Bonin for top 20 status in the crap HW division.

(c)
W12 Holyfield
W12 Ruiz
W12 Lyakhovich
WRTD McCline
WTKO Barrett
W12 Ruiz
W12 Donald
W12 Bidenko

Would I fancy Haye to beat most of those guys........YES.

Would I think that Haye would be a big betting favourite to beat most of those guys.........YES.

I would fancy Haye to beat Jameel McCline, even if he had both his kneecaps in place.

I can't believe you're throwing Larry Donald at me here.

Give praise were praise is due here. John Ruiz is No.9 in the divsion at the moment; you can't honestly tell me that you would put Haye below him?
(I) You can summize many things. I may not even neccessarily disagree with you, but reality is reality also.

(II) I don't think so. I personally wouldn't have had Bonin anywhere near a top 20 as I'd never heard of him and his resume is atrocious. It's easy enough to think of 20 better heavyweights including the 4 we saw tonight.

(III) Again, I may not neccessarily disagree. But Haye hasn't beaten them and Valuev has. This is the real world we're living in, real life resumes at heavyweight. I can only rank based on reality, really. It's the only fair way to do this.

I threw Larry Donald at you because you and Haye are throwing Tomas Boner at me.

I would put him below Johnny Ruiz for the exact same reasons as I put Valuev above him.

[D-MAC]

(I) You can summize many things. I may not even neccessarily disagree with you, but reality is reality also.

(II) I don't think so. I personally wouldn't have had Bonin anywhere near a top 20 as I'd never heard of him and his resume is atrocious. It's easy enough to think of 20 better heavyweights including the 4 we saw tonight.

(III) Again, I may not neccessarily disagree. But Haye hasn't beaten them and Valuev has. This is the real world we're living in, real life resumes at heavyweight. I can only rank based on reality, really. It's the only fair way to do this.

I threw Larry Donald at you because you and Haye are throwing Tomas Boner at me.

I would put him below Johnny Ruiz for the exact same reasons as I put Valuev above him.

(I) Reality is reality; Boxing Monthly has him at No.4.

(II) Think of the four tonight. Would Haye have much problems with them; maybe Povetkin once he got over his extended lay-off; the rest? Fuck no! The fact that he would be the betting favourite over all but the top 3 in the division should show that he belongs near the top.

(III) How is this the best way to do things? The HW division, outside of Vlad, Vitali and Chagaev is terrible, fact. Valuev may be the worst beltholder in world boxing, opinion. Haye is faster of foot and punch than the rest of the HW division, fact. Don't throw Bonin at me because I threw Donald at you; Haye KO'd Bonin in the first round, while Valuev took a majority decision off Donald (hell of a difference, and I don't think Donald and Bonin are exactly tiers apart).

[TFFP]

(I) Reality is reality; Boxing Monthly has him at No.4.

(II) Think of the four tonight. Would Haye have much problems with them; maybe Povetkin once he got over his extended lay-off; the rest? Fuck no! The fact that he would be the betting favourite over all but the top 3 in the division should show that he belongs near the top.

(III) How is this the best way to do things? The HW division, outside of Vlad, Vitali and Chagaev is terrible, fact. Valuev may be the worst beltholder in world boxing, opinion. Haye is faster of foot and punch than the rest of the HW division, fact. Don't throw Bonin at me because I threw Donald at you; Haye KO'd Bonin in the first round, while Valuev took a majority decision off Donald (hell of a difference, and I don't think Donald and Bonin are exactly tiers apart).
(*) The reality of boxing monthly is not based on the the reality of real world resumes at the weight they are ranking. It's probably more based on subjective criteria as you have based your ranking of him on, such as possibly how good he is, and how good he could be based on what he did at 200lbs. As quite clearly, as I demonstrated with Valuev, Haye's heavyweight resume is not there. Which is fine...its just not how I would choose to rank people as I don't believe its really fair and it gives people license to rank anybody anywhere and justify it with nonsense, bias can come into play.

(**) Probably not, I wouldn't neccessarily rank Sosnowski and Pianeta above Haye! Neither of these has much of a resume, so in this case I probably would start to look at how much more impressive Haye appears and what he's done elsewhere as there is little else to choose between them.

(***) I think its the best way to do things for the reasons I touched upon above. Ranking based on resume is far harder to dispute as you can match names up. It is there for everybody to see, anybody with a brain cell and some objectivity can make a clear cut call on this, unless its particularly close and then we may consider other aspects. To me its a far more transparent system. If we allow everybody to use criteria such as how pretty they appear in the ring and what this guy did against guys 50lbs lighter this is when we get people like Jeff M ranking Valero as the #1 lightweight because he fancies him. Nuthuggers can hide behind more subjective ranking systems, plus its totally not fair on guys that have plyed their trade at a weight for their entire career picking up good scalps.

P.S. I hate to go into this because its completely irrelevant but...Donald is a lot better than Bonin. He went 10 with Vitali Klitschko, and the distance with Riddick Bowe. He pushed Povetkin. Tomas Bonin got KD'd by jabs for christ sake, guys rubbish. I would put Donald into the same echelon as Barrett, probably better, which sums up Haye's forays into HW so far.

[D-MAC]

(*) The reality of boxing monthly is not based on the the reality of real world resumes at the weight they are ranking. It's probably more based on subjective criteria as you have based your ranking of him on, such as possibly how good he is, and how good he could be based on what he did at 200lbs. As quite clearly, as I demonstrated with Valuev, Haye's heavyweight resume is not there. Which is fine...its just not how I would choose to rank people as I don't believe its really fair and it gives people license to rank anybody anywhere and justify it with nonsense, bias can come into play.

(**) Probably not, I wouldn't neccessarily rank Sosnowski and Pianeta above Haye! Neither of these has much of a resume, so in this case I probably would start to look at how much more impressive Haye appears and what he's done elsewhere as there is little else to choose between them.

(***) I think its the best way to do things for the reasons I touched upon above. Ranking based on resume is far harder to dispute as you can match names up. It is there for everybody to see, anybody with a brain cell and some objectivity can make a clear cut call on this, unless its particularly close and then we may consider other aspects. To me its a far more transparent system. If we allow everybody to use criteria such as how pretty they appear in the ring and what this guy did against guys 50lbs lighter this is when we get people like Jeff M ranking Valero as the #1 lightweight because he fancies him. Nuthuggers can hide behind more subjective ranking systems, plus its totally not fair on guys that have plyed their trade at a weight for their entire career picking up good scalps.

P.S. I hate to go into this because its completely irrelevant but...Donald is a lot better than Bonin. He went 10 with Vitali Klitschko, and the distance with Riddick Bowe. He pushed Povetkin. Tomas Bonin got KD'd by jabs for christ sake, guys rubbish. I would put Donald into the same echelon as Barrett, probably better, which sums up Haye's forays into HW so far.


As I said before, the lower divisons do it with a guy moving up, so why shouldn't the heavier divisions (yes, more weight, but the same general system applies). If you think Haye would beat Valuev, and the bookies (usually smart people in this situation) would think that Haye would beat Valuev, then rank him above the Russian; just because Valuev beat a few boxers in the same division, that Haye would be favourite to beat even more convincingly, that doesn't mean that Valuev should be ranked above him.

Haye deserves a top 5 placing. I would think this would be even more obvious after watching Povetkin-Estrada tonight.

[rossd1506]

Id fancy Haye to beat anyone apart from the Klits who im not sure about.

[doug.ie]

ratings, regardless of what ratings they are, should be based on previous results in the ring...not if's and but's...or 'he looks much better so he should be higher'...
even if he was the bionic man x10, if he hasnt got the results at heavyweight that others have, then in no way should he be rated above them...no matter how obviously good he may look...

[kurt2006]

i really dont see the fuss with chageav. very ordinary,and injury/sick prone for me.

I think this is second time ever I have agreed with stuey.

Chageav is vastly over-rated. He is nothing special and Haye would beat him easy. He has problems with his eyes and should not be fighting at all. Only because of the corrupt shenanigans of German boxing allows him to get fights.

[TommyV]

So if he beats both Klitschko's, sandwiching a win with Povetkin aswell, and then retires, does he make an ATG top 50 on a P4P scale? Given that most would have Holyfield in there, perhaps around 30-40, and it would the same level of achievement.

[debaser]

I don't rank him in the heavyweight top 10 at the moment due to lack of activity. He's a promising prospect, no more no less.

[D.Haye-no1-p4p]

I don't rank him in the heavyweight top 10 at the moment due to lack of activity. He's a promising prospect, no more no less.
I find it ridiculous that anybody would not have him in their top 10.

Regardless of his lack of fights at heavyweight, his ability has already be proven at a lower weight.

He's fought twice at heavyweight and demolished both opponents, if your trying to tell me there's 10 people in the heavyweight division who are better than Haye your having a laugh.

When Barrera, Marquez, Pacquiao, Morales etc jumped up weights, their rankings were correctly in the top 5 of the higher weight division. Even though they'd never fought at the weight it was clear from their previous fights that they belonged in the top 5 of a division they had never fought in.

[El Cepillo]

Well, I bought the hype, so I have him in the Top 5 based on his achivements at CW and his victory over the legendary ATG Monte Barrett.