Frazier vs other ATG

[fg2227]

Which other Heavyweight Champions do you think joe could take?


I'm mostly thinking from 1950 onwards.

[fg2227]

To start the ball rolling i would pick him to beat Larry holmes (Close) Evander Holyfield (another close one).

[Maxmomer]

I think he would beat - Evander Holyfield, Larry Holmes, Rocky Marciano, Jack Sharkey, Max Schmeling, Max Baer, James Jeffries, Gene Tunney, Ezzard Charles, Floyd Patterson, and Jack Johnson.

I think he would lose to - Jack Dempsey, Joe Louis, Sonny Liston and Lennox Lewis.

I think quite highly of Joe Frazier H2H. I think he had a very unique style as a come forward fighter, he had excellent defense (head and upper body movement second only to Jack Dempsey in my opinion), had good foot speed and could close the gap between him and a fleet footed opponent very quickly. I think he's the best puncher in the HW division at chasing down movers and boxers. His pressure is faster and more consistent than any other swarmer in the division. His chin is underrated and his toughness and will are second to none, same goes for his stamina. He's also possibly the best body puncher the division ever produced. His hand-speed was quite good. He didn't have one punch power so much, but his power was formidable and his punches were sharp and accurate. He was also one of the best inside technicians of all time, with good strength in the clinches. Joe Frazier was the pinnacle of the swarmer style.

[SuzieQ49]

Good Analysis of frazier's style maxomer but i have a couple minor dissagreements. for one, i feel he gets stopped by marciano. i think frazier does alot better against dempsey than he does marciano. i also feel jack johnson beats frazier. in fact i think jack johnson beats all of the swarmers. joe louis sonny liston george foreman all knockout a prime frazier. I do strongly feel however that joe frazier would take apart larry holmes


Unlike you im still questionable on fraziers chin. he did not take on any of the well knownbig punchers of the era outside of foreman who annihalated him. he also was floored by clubfighter michael bruce, nearly stopped in the 2nd round by bonavena, and was stunned in many of his other fights

[Maxmomer]

Good Analysis of frazier's style maxomer but i have a couple minor dissagreements. for one, i feel he gets stopped by marciano. i think frazier does alot better against dempsey than he does marciano. i also feel jack johnson beats frazier. in fact i think jack johnson beats all of the swarmers. joe louis sonny liston george foreman all knockout a prime frazier. I do strongly feel however that joe frazier would take apart larry holmes


Unlike you im still questionable on fraziers chin. he did not take on any of the well knownbig punchers of the era outside of foreman who annihalated him. he also was floored by clubfighter michael bruce, nearly stopped in the 2nd round by bonavena, and was stunned in many of his other fights

Frazier didn't have a great chin when it came to pure concussive force, but I do think he was very hard to stop, at his best. He beat guys with respectable power and took good punches from them without seeming hurt. Foreman blew him out but Foreman is arguably the hardest puncher the division has ever seen and Frazier wasn't prime and he was eating some massive power shots that were landing right on his chin. I also don't think it's fair to count the Michael Bruce fight against him as it was only his second professional bout. In Frazier's prime how many times was he dropped or clearly hurt? Guys like Louis, Marciano, Holmes and Dempsey all were hurt and dropped in their primes.

I think Frazier would beat Marciano based on a few things. For one Frazier is tougher and much better in general than guys it took Marciano a while to get rid of, and Marciano was hurt dropped or cut up by lesser HW punchers than Frazier. He was dropped and hurt a couple of times by Walcott's left hook, and while Walcott was one of the better punchers of his size the division has seen, Frazier was better. I don't think either one fought a puncher as good as the other, but they were hurt by the lesser punchers they did face so I think they would be able to hurt each other, the difference for me is just that Frazier was bigger, stronger, faster and in my opinion performed their similar come forward style more effecitvely.

[he grant]

Post Louis I feel he beats Charles, Walcott, Marciano, Patterson, Ingo, Terrell, Ellis, Norton, Leon Spinks, Michael Spinks, Witherspoon, Tubbs, Page, Coetzee, Dokes, Tucker, Berbick, Tate , Weaver, Smith , Bowe, Vitali, Wlad ...

Not sure about Liston, Holmes, Holyfield, Lewis ...

[OBCboxer]

I think he would beat - Evander Holyfield, Larry Holmes, Rocky Marciano, Jack Sharkey, Max Schmeling, Max Baer, James Jeffries, Gene Tunney, Ezzard Charles, Floyd Patterson, and Jack Johnson.

I think he would lose to - Jack Dempsey, Joe Louis, Sonny Liston and Lennox Lewis.

I think quite highly of Joe Frazier H2H. I think he had a very unique style as a come forward fighter, he had excellent defense (head and upper body movement second only to Jack Dempsey in my opinion), had good foot speed and could close the gap between him and a fleet footed opponent very quickly. I think he's the best puncher in the HW division at chasing down movers and boxers. His pressure is faster and more consistent than any other swarmer in the division. His chin is underrated and his toughness and will are second to none, same goes for his stamina. He's also possibly the best body puncher the division ever produced. His hand-speed was quite good. He didn't have one punch power so much, but his power was formidable and his punches were sharp and accurate. He was also one of the best inside technicians of all time, with good strength in the clinches. Joe Frazier was the pinnacle of the swarmer style.

I agree with this post. You hit it spot on.

[Russell]

If you can't blow him up, and he's backing you up... You're going to have a nearly impossible time with Frazier.

[SuzieQ49]

For one Frazier is tougher and much better in general than guys it took Marciano a while to get rid of

what defines toughness? Archie Moore and Jersey Joe Walcott waiting all those years including taking a couple bad beatings and persaverence finally paying off and winning world titles. is that toughness? Is Don Cockell vomitting blood in between rounds in his corner refusing to quit because he promised his countryman he would fight hard for them, is that toughness? or Ezzard Charles refusing to let his back touch the ropes once in 15 rounds vs rock. Frazier showed tremendous toughness in the Ali Wars, but there are alot of other tough fighters too. Both Frazier and Marciano were as tough as they come. I tend to think older fighters are better at surviving longer. Look at young fresh contenders like layne and matthews, they only lasted 2 and 6 rounds vs the Rock. Yet the older guys lasted longer. I do think rocky was the faster starter than frazier pre 1953, had more early round knockouts, and it defintley took frazier a while to get going. Even in his 2nd round knockout wins over foster and ramos, Foster won the first round and ramos landed a bigg uppercut that nearly lifted frazier in the air in the first


Much Better? I would say yes frazier is better than them. But I would also say Marciano is a huge step above Jerry Quarry and Oscar Bonavena who floored joe Frazier twice and backed him up in slugouts.

and Marciano was hurt dropped or cut up by lesser HW punchers than Frazier.

Frazier was certainly hurt dropped by lesser HW punchers than marciano. A clubfighter Michael Bruce, floored joe frazier. Marciano was only floored by HOFs on Ring Magazines top 100 punchers of all time list. Frazier was floored by a clubfighter. Frazier was also down twice in one fight vs Oscar Bonavena and nearly kayoed....marciano was never on the brink of a kayo like that. Joe Frazier pretty much avoided fighting the punchers of his era for a reason, he did not match up well vs punchers. he has durability issues.

the difference for me is just that Frazier was bigger, stronger, faster and in my opinion performed their similar come forward style more effecitvely.


Frazier was bigger, but he also had a little flub around the side midsection naturally. He used to be a fat kid I believe. I do strongly feel Marciano was stronger than frazier. All of marcianos opponents including archie moore who fought big dudes like baker and valdez said marciano was far and away the strongest they ever faced. Ezzard Charles said marciano was not the hardest hitter he faced, but the strongest. Louis said he was stronger than max baer and primo carnera. Marciano was one of the stronger heavyweights of all time. Joe Frazier was actually not very strong. I think he even embarrased himself on TV once in a strength contest losing to a track guy i believe. Strength was not one of fraziers better assets IMO(although Ali did say frazier was very strong).

faster

Yes frazier has the clear edge here. Fraziers movement and handspeed were lightning fast in his prime, the way he takes chuvalo apart and rips his eye open is devastating.

However, I think an advantage marciano has thats more important is two fisted knockout power. Specificully the pre 1954 rocky marciano who had one punch knockout power, something frazier never possessed. frazier's power is comparable to the 1954-1955 swarmer version of marciano, but not the slugger version of rocky who left durable top contenders out cold with 1 punch. A big thing thats going to hurt frazier in this battle of the trenches is Marcianos 2 fisted power vs Fraziers one hand. Frazier does not have power in his right hand, he doesnt. Marciano has power in both fists, and when you go up against a slugger of that magnitude, its tough for frazier to be able to compete with rocky in the trenches with limited tools.


Great Fight I like rocky by mid rounds TKO

[Maxmomer]

what defines toughness? Archie Moore and Jersey Joe Walcott waiting all those years including taking a couple bad beatings and persaverence finally paying off and winning world titles. is that toughness? Is Don Cockell vomitting blood in between rounds in his corner refusing to quit because he promised his countryman he would fight hard for them, is that toughness? or Ezzard Charles refusing to let his back touch the ropes once in 15 rounds vs rock. Frazier showed tremendous toughness in the Ali Wars, but there are alot of other tough fighters too. Both Frazier and Marciano were as tough as they come. I tend to think older fighters are better at surviving longer. Look at young fresh contenders like layne and matthews, they only lasted 2 and 6 rounds vs the Rock. Yet the older guys lasted longer. I do think rocky was the faster starter than frazier pre 1953, had more early round knockouts, and it defintley took frazier a while to get going. Even in his 2nd round knockout wins over foster and ramos, Foster won the first round and ramos landed a bigg uppercut that nearly lifted frazier in the air in the first


Much Better? I would say yes frazier is better than them. But I would also say Marciano is a huge step above Jerry Quarry and Oscar Bonavena who floored joe Frazier twice and backed him up in slugouts.



Frazier was certainly hurt dropped by lesser HW punchers than marciano. A clubfighter Michael Bruce, floored joe frazier. Marciano was only floored by HOFs on Ring Magazines top 100 punchers of all time list. Frazier was floored by a clubfighter. Frazier was also down twice in one fight vs Oscar Bonavena and nearly kayoed....marciano was never on the brink of a kayo like that. Joe Frazier pretty much avoided fighting the punchers of his era for a reason, he did not match up well vs punchers. he has durability issues.




Frazier was bigger, but he also had a little flub around the side midsection naturally. He used to be a fat kid I believe. I do strongly feel Marciano was stronger than frazier. All of marcianos opponents including archie moore who fought big dudes like baker and valdez said marciano was far and away the strongest they ever faced. Ezzard Charles said marciano was not the hardest hitter he faced, but the strongest. Louis said he was stronger than max baer and primo carnera. Marciano was one of the stronger heavyweights of all time. Joe Frazier was actually not very strong. I think he even embarrased himself on TV once in a strength contest losing to a track guy i believe. Strength was not one of fraziers better assets IMO(although Ali did say frazier was very strong).



Yes frazier has the clear edge here. Fraziers movement and handspeed were lightning fast in his prime, the way he takes chuvalo apart and rips his eye open is devastating.

However, I think an advantage marciano has thats more important is two fisted knockout power. Specificully the pre 1954 rocky marciano who had one punch knockout power, something frazier never possessed. frazier's power is comparable to the 1954-1955 swarmer version of marciano, but not the slugger version of rocky who left durable top contenders out cold with 1 punch. A big thing thats going to hurt frazier in this battle of the trenches is Marcianos 2 fisted power vs Fraziers one hand. Frazier does not have power in his right hand, he doesnt. Marciano has power in both fists, and when you go up against a slugger of that magnitude, its tough for frazier to be able to compete with rocky in the trenches with limited tools.


Great Fight I like rocky by mid rounds TKO

I might have to come back this next weekend, I'm leaving in the morning and just took a couple of sleeping pills. Don't think I'll be able to debate all that effectively in a few minutes here. Just letting you know, I haven't forgotten about this.

[Maxmomer]

what defines toughness? Archie Moore and Jersey Joe Walcott waiting all those years including taking a couple bad beatings and persaverence finally paying off and winning world titles. is that toughness? Is Don Cockell vomitting blood in between rounds in his corner refusing to quit because he promised his countryman he would fight hard for them, is that toughness? or Ezzard Charles refusing to let his back touch the ropes once in 15 rounds vs rock. Frazier showed tremendous toughness in the Ali Wars, but there are alot of other tough fighters too.

A lot of fighters are tough. Frazier was tougher than anyone Marciano fought, his will and resistance to accumulative damage were awe-inspiring. It took Marciano a while to get rid of fighters who weren't nearly as good/tough as Frazier, and they couldn't put the kind of hurting on Marciano that Frazier could have.

Both Frazier and Marciano were as tough as they come.Agreed.

I tend to think older fighters are better at surviving longer. Look at young fresh contenders like layne and matthews, they only lasted 2 and 6 rounds vs the Rock. Yet the older guys lasted longer.I think that's because they had more definsive savvy, experiance and overall skill even if their skills were a bit eroded by age.

I do think rocky was the faster starter than frazier pre 1953, had more early round knockouts, and it defintley took frazier a while to get going.Frazier stopped everyone up until Bonevena who was extremely durable. Neither were fast starters, but I might be inclined to agree that Marciano was a bit more dangerous early.

Much Better? I would say yes frazier is better than them. But I would also say Marciano is a huge step above Jerry Quarry and Oscar Bonavena who floored joe Frazier twice and backed him up in slugouts. You speak as though Marciano was never backed up. And I think Bonavena and Quarry were, if not better than some of the fighters Marciano beat, more durable.

Frazier was certainly hurt dropped by lesser HW punchers than marciano. A clubfighter Michael Bruce, floored joe frazier. Marciano was only floored by HOFs on Ring Magazines top 100 punchers of all time list. Frazier was floored by a clubfighter. Frazier was also down twice in one fight vs Oscar Bonavena and nearly kayoed....marciano was never on the brink of a kayo like that.The fight takes place prime for prime, not Frazier in his second fight vs prime Marciano. How many times was Frazier dropped or visibally hurt in his prime? Watching film of Marciano I've counted several times where he's been wobbled or at least stunned by punches. It's a myth that he couldn't be hurt. He recovered super fast, but he was buzzed, dropped and stunned by lesser punchers than Frazier. Like I said, they will be able to hurt each other with their punches.

Joe Frazier pretty much avoided fighting the punchers of his era for a reason, he did not match up well vs punchers. he has durability issuesI'm not entirly sure this is true.

Frazier was bigger, but he also had a little flub around the side midsection naturally. He used to be a fat kid I believe.Frazier in his prime weighed about 20 more pounds than Marciano at his prime weight, he was also an inch and half taller and had a longer reach - he was clearly bigger.

I do strongly feel Marciano was stronger than frazier. All of marcianos opponents including archie moore who fought big dudes like baker and valdez said marciano was far and away the strongest they ever faced. Ezzard Charles said marciano was not the hardest hitter he faced, but the strongest. Louis said he was stronger than max baer and primo carnera. Marciano was one of the stronger heavyweights of all time.For his size, sure. He was very stocky and strong with excellent pound of pound strength.

Joe Frazier was actually not very strong.He was in the ring.

I think he even embarrased himself on TV once in a strength contest losing to a track guy i believe.Irrelevent. We're talking about their strength in the ring, not how much they can bench.

Strength was not one of fraziers better assets IMO(although Ali did say frazier was very strong).He showed great strength in pushing around guys like Bonavena, Quarry and Chuvalo. He regularly fought bigger guys than Marciano and in all of his fights I've seen he is always able to back his guy up no matter how much they weigh or how strong they themselves are. He was backed up himself by some of his tougher opposition, but so was Marciano.

However, I think an advantage marciano has thats more important is two fisted knockout power. Specificully the pre 1954 rocky marciano who had one punch knockout power, something frazier never possessed.

frazier's power is comparable to the 1954-1955 swarmer version of marciano, but not the slugger version of rocky who left durable top contenders out cold with 1 punch. A big thing thats going to hurt frazier in this battle of the trenches is Marcianos 2 fisted power vs Fraziers one hand. Frazier does not have power in his right hand, he doesnt. Marciano has power in both fists, and when you go up against a slugger of that magnitude, its tough for frazier to be able to compete with rocky in the trenches with limited tools. Marciano did have better two-fisted power, but Frazier was quicker and more precise. I also think he was the more skilled in-fighter, and would get the better of Marciano inside. On a side-note: I don't think Marciano lost power late in his career, he had as much of his pure power as always, what he probably lost was the excellent timing that allowed him to land those brilliant punches he caught Walcott and Layne with.

To sum up my feelings I think Frazier would win because while they would be able to hurt each other, I think Frazier would land more consistently due to his greater hand-speed and accuracy, and Frazier would avoid a lot of Marcianos return fire. I think it goes 10 rounds ending with a Frazier stoppage.

I'm going to Washington D.C. for a week. I'll probably forget about this thread in the meantime, so I'll just assume I won.

[TommyV]

Larry Holmes is a good call, considering he obviously beat Ali. I personally think Larry had a better jab than Ali - though only slightly - however I still think he'll find different to continually land it on Joe, as well as the overhand right. His right uppercut is another dangerous punch, but again I think he'll find it nie on impossible to land it with Joe being the much smaller guy and with that crouching sort of style and constantly head movement.

Some may say Larry's ring generalmanship and footwork gets him out of problem, but as outstanding as it was, it's still second best to Ali's footwork and even he couldn't get away from Frazier's stalking style. With his excellent stamina, I don't think Holmes can really contend with Frazier's workrate and him working 3 minutes a round for 15 rounds non-stop.

Although Larry had a very solid chin, Frazier as we know dropped Ali with a single left hook in the FOTC, so I actually think he'd have Larry down late, but as we know especially from that huge right hand he took from Shavers, Holmes has an outstanding ability to recover and regroup his sense very quickly.

The Easton Assassin would nick a few rounds of course, but on a 10 point must system over 15 rounds, I'd take Frazier by a score of 144-140, in other words, 9 rounds to 6 with a knockdown in his favour aswell.

[SuzieQ49]

I will say this because I hate to make it seem I am picking on frazier. I don't think any boxer who ever lived (save a 1967 Muhammad Ali) could beat joe frazier. thats how much I think of him vs boxers.

I do feel he would lose to some punchers, I feel he was vulnerable to them

[round15]

If we're talking the Frazier from 1967 - 1970, just prior to the FOTC, I'd say he'd be a very tough assignment for every heavyweight champion in history, even from Sullivan and Jack Johnson's time.

Many on this forum conclude that the bigger punching heavyweight champions, Liston, Foreman, Tyson, Joe Louis and Lennox Lewis would KO Smokin' Joe. I tend to give prime Frazier more respect than that, because nobody came close to KO'ing prime Frazier, except for Bonavena in one of his first fights against a ranked contender. That would have been a three knockdown TKO, not a true KO. One of the knockdowns against Bonavena, I believe the second in the first round, was more of a push-down as well.

Forget using George Foreman as the primary example because there's a huge difference between the fighter he beat inside two rounds, 1973, and the fighter who was the dominant champion in the late 1960's. I have a hard time believing Foreman would KO this version of Frazier early, especially if Joe finds his underappreciated right hand, which he used effectively against Bugner, Quarry, Ellis and Ali. Joe never got a chance to get to George's body because Mercante was letting him push, shove off, and hold Frazier's shoulders, which another referree wouldn't allow to happen.

Compared to Ali, prime Frazier wasn't as slow as people say he was. Ali did land some serious jabs and right hand shots against Frazier in the FOTC, but at the same time, nobody made Ali miss more punches in a fight.

Prime Frazier's head movement, pace, body attack, endurance and overall toughness could give him a punchers chance against anybody. Nobody KO's this version of Frazier, and the only two I'd bet on winning a possible split decision over fifteen rounds is the Ali of 1964 - 1967, and Larry Holmes 1979 - 1980. Lennox Lewis could probably out-box Joe for more than a couple of rounds and keep him on the outside winning a close 12 round contest. I respect Lennox Lewis as an atheletic big man who was more lighter on his feet than a lot of the heavyweight champions. Over 15 rounds though, Frazier would get to Lennox somewhere around 13 or 14 and stop him.

Dempsey, Marciano, Tyson and Holyfield would provide the most exciting two way action fights against prime Frazier, but none of them would beat him.

[mcvey]

I will say this because I hate to make it seem I am picking on frazier. I don't think any boxer who ever lived (save a 1967 Muhammad Ali) could beat joe frazier. thats how much I think of him vs boxers.

I do feel he would lose to some punchers, I feel he was vulnerable to them
Im curious as to why you see Frazier beating Holmes ,not disputing your opinion ,just interested.
ps Marciano beats Frazier ,because.
He had better two fisted power.
He had a better chin.
He had better one punch power .

[PhillyPhan69]

If we're talking the Frazier from 1967 - 1970, just prior to the FOTC, I'd say he'd be a very tough assignment for every heavyweight champion in history, even from Sullivan and Jack Johnson's time.

Many on this forum conclude that the bigger punching heavyweight champions, Liston, Foreman, Tyson, Joe Louis and Lennox Lewis would KO Smokin' Joe. I tend to give prime Frazier more respect than that, because nobody came close to KO'ing prime Frazier, except for Bonavena in one of his first fights against a ranked contender. That would have been a three knockdown TKO, not a true KO. One of the knockdowns against Bonavena, I believe the second in the first round, was more of a push-down as well.

Forget using George Foreman as the primary example because there's a huge difference between the fighter he beat inside two rounds, 1973, and the fighter who was the dominant champion in the late 1960's. I have a hard time believing Foreman would KO this version of Frazier early, especially if Joe finds his underappreciated right hand, which he used effectively against Bugner, Quarry, Ellis and Ali. Joe never got a chance to get to George's body because Mercante was letting him push, shove off, and hold Frazier's shoulders, which another referree wouldn't allow to happen.

Compared to Ali, prime Frazier wasn't as slow as people say he was. Ali did land some serious jabs and right hand shots against Frazier in the FOTC, but at the same time, nobody made Ali miss more punches in a fight.

Prime Frazier's head movement, pace, body attack, endurance and overall toughness could give him a punchers chance against anybody. Nobody KO's this version of Frazier, and the only two I'd bet on winning a possible split decision over fifteen rounds is the Ali of 1964 - 1967, and Larry Holmes 1979 - 1980. Lennox Lewis could probably out-box Joe for more than a couple of rounds and keep him on the outside winning a close 12 round contest. I respect Lennox Lewis as an atheletic big man who was more lighter on his feet than a lot of the heavyweight champions. Over 15 rounds though, Frazier would get to Lennox somewhere around 13 or 14 and stop him.

Dempsey, Marciano, Tyson and Holyfield would provide the most exciting two way action fights against prime Frazier, but none of them would beat him.

I would add Liston to the List off possible losses, but agree with most of this good call!

[Muchmoore]

I will say this because I hate to make it seem I am picking on frazier. I don't think any boxer who ever lived (save a 1967 Muhammad Ali) could beat joe frazier. thats how much I think of him vs boxers.

I do feel he would lose to some punchers, I feel he was vulnerable to them

I feel the exact same way. I'm not even confident in picking a 67 Ali over Frazier.

[McGrain]

For Me He Beats:

Ali
Johnson
Holmes
Marciano
Wills
Jeffries
Walcott
Schmeling
Holyfield


He Loses To:

Louis
Liston
Lewis
Tyson
Foreman

[mr. magoo]

If we're talking the Frazier from 1967 - 1970, just prior to the FOTC, I'd say he'd be a very tough assignment for every heavyweight champion in history, even from Sullivan and Jack Johnson's time.

Many on this forum conclude that the bigger punching heavyweight champions, Liston, Foreman, Tyson, Joe Louis and Lennox Lewis would KO Smokin' Joe. I tend to give prime Frazier more respect than that, because nobody came close to KO'ing prime Frazier, except for Bonavena in one of his first fights against a ranked contender. That would have been a three knockdown TKO, not a true KO. One of the knockdowns against Bonavena, I believe the second in the first round, was more of a push-down as well.

Forget using George Foreman as the primary example because there's a huge difference between the fighter he beat inside two rounds, 1973, and the fighter who was the dominant champion in the late 1960's. I have a hard time believing Foreman would KO this version of Frazier early, especially if Joe finds his underappreciated right hand, which he used effectively against Bugner, Quarry, Ellis and Ali. Joe never got a chance to get to George's body because Mercante was letting him push, shove off, and hold Frazier's shoulders, which another referree wouldn't allow to happen.

Compared to Ali, prime Frazier wasn't as slow as people say he was. Ali did land some serious jabs and right hand shots against Frazier in the FOTC, but at the same time, nobody made Ali miss more punches in a fight.

Prime Frazier's head movement, pace, body attack, endurance and overall toughness could give him a punchers chance against anybody. Nobody KO's this version of Frazier, and the only two I'd bet on winning a possible split decision over fifteen rounds is the Ali of 1964 - 1967, and Larry Holmes 1979 - 1980. Lennox Lewis could probably out-box Joe for more than a couple of rounds and keep him on the outside winning a close 12 round contest. I respect Lennox Lewis as an atheletic big man who was more lighter on his feet than a lot of the heavyweight champions. Over 15 rounds though, Frazier would get to Lennox somewhere around 13 or 14 and stop him.

Dempsey, Marciano, Tyson and Holyfield would provide the most exciting two way action fights against prime Frazier, but none of them would beat him.\

I respect Joe Frazier and give him a fair chance against a lot of fighters too, but there are several points that I disagree with in this post. For one thing, your comment about there being a huge difference between the Frazier who fought Foreman in '73 as opposed to the Frazier who reigned in the late 60's, does not sit well with me. Most people concur that the very best rendering of Joe Frazier was in 1971 against Muhammad Ali. He was 27 years of age, in tremendous shape and hungrier than ever as he considered Ali his chief rival and by far the biggest fight of his career. Do the math, this fight was only two years -NOT HALF A DECADE removed from the Foreman fight. The Frazier of the late 60's was taken the distance twice and decked twice by Oscar Bonavena as well as trailing on the scorecards early against Quarry and Ellis. This is hardly what I would call displaying a shroud of invincibility. The reality of the matter is that Foreman was the first genuine great slugger that Frazier faced and he lost with ease. Now, I agree with you ( and have before on this issue ), that Frazier was declining. He was carrying extra weight that he did not need to be carrying. He had developed high blood pressure and was now turning his attention to the other areas of his life outside of boxing. On the flipside however, he was 29 years of age, the reigning heavyweight champion and would still face Ali in two more gut wrenching battles following the Foreman fight, and would even be greater trouble for Foreman in their second meeting three years later. My conclusion here is that while Frazier was past his best against Foreman, he was far from being shot. His loss to was a result of him being poorly matched stylistically and physically against a particular opponent.. I would not have picked a '67, '68. '69, '70, or '71 Frazier to beat Foreman or even give him much trouble for that matter. Sure, maybe instead of two rounds, he might have lasted 5 or 6 and landed a few decent shots, but being two or three years younger and maybe 8 or 9 lbs lighter is not going to turn the tables of totally getting your ass kicked to winning all together....

[McGrain]

\

I respect Joe Frazier and give him a fair chance against a lot of fighters too, but there are several points that I disagree with in this post. For one thing, your comment about there being a huge difference between the Frazier who fought Foreman in '73 as opposed to the Frazier who reigned in the late 60's, does not sit well with me. Most people concur that the very best rendering of Joe Frazier was in 1971 against Muhammad Ali. He was 27 years of age, in tremendous shape and hungrier than ever as he considered Ali his chief rival and by far the biggest fight of his career. Do the math, this fight was only two years -NOT HALF A DECADE removed from the Foreman fight.....

The difference is nothing to do with age. It is to do with the helacious beating Ali dropped on Joe in his losing effort. I thin that this fight would have taken it out of Joe regardless. Factor in the fact that he made that collosol effort whilst running a temperature with painful joints, and that he spent 2-5 weeks in hospital (depending on who you believe) under close observation (or out most nights chasing girls, depending on who you believe) and you have your difference. Yes it was two years. Yes Joe was never the same.

What is more, Joe lost, say, his top 5%. For a fighter like Ali who fights much of a fight within a physical comfort zone, that is fine. For a fighter like Frazier who functions in the top 10% near permenantly, it's a disaster.

[OBCboxer]

Exactly, many people don't understood that Joe had taken a lot of punishment over his career and it started to catch up with him in 1972 and 1973. He was technically 29 but was all ready past his prime when he met Foreman.

People like to compare him with Ali when he was 29; the difference was that Ali didn't take not nearly as much punishment as Frazier up to that age.

[mr. magoo]

The difference is nothing to do with age. It is to do with the helacious beating Ali dropped on Joe in his losing effort. I thin that this fight would have taken it out of Joe regardless. Factor in the fact that he made that collosol effort whilst running a temperature with painful joints, and that he spent 2-5 weeks in hospital (depending on who you believe) under close observation (or out most nights chasing girls, depending on who you believe) and you have your difference. Yes it was two years. Yes Joe was never the same.

What is more, Joe lost, say, his top 5%. For a fighter like Ali who fights much of a fight within a physical comfort zone, that is fine. For a fighter like Frazier who functions in the top 10% near permenantly, it's a disaster.

I am not maintaining that Frazier was still peak when he fought Foreman. The argument being made by some here is that he was " way past it " against Foreman, and I tend to disagree. You speak of the helacious beating that he took against Ali in FOTC. Did he not battle Ali through two more similar battles over the next 4 years? There are some who believe that the Thrilla in Manilla took more out of both men than did the Fight of the Century. It is reasonable to conclude that Frazier was declining against Foreman and that if he was 100% that he might have lasted a few more rounds and landed some decent shots. It is not reasonable however, to claim that he was completely past it, and that if he wasn't that he would have totally beaten Foreman.. This is an issue that requires both a certain amount of balance as well as common sense. Frazier's loss to Foreman was more of a stylistic issue rather than a matter of one man being past prime.

[round15]

I am not maintaining that Frazier was still peak when he fought Foreman. The argument being made by some here is that he was " way past it " against Foreman, and I tend to disagree. You speak of the helacious beating that he took against Ali in FOTC. Did he not battle Ali through two more similar battles over the next 4 years? There are some who believe that the Thrilla in Manilla took more out of both men than did the Fight of the Century. It is reasonable to conclude that Frazier was declining against Foreman and that if he was 100% that he might have lasted a few more rounds and landed some decent shots. It is not reasonable however, to claim that he was completely past it, and that if he wasn't that he would have totally beaten Foreman.. This is an issue that requires both a certain amount of balance as well as common sense. Frazier's loss to Foreman was more of a stylistic issue rather than a matter of one man being past prime.

I agree with you to a certain extent Mr. Magoo. Respect to you for your post and opinion.

You are correct. Frazier wasn't WAY past his prime against Foreman as I have been guilty and others on this forum of saying in past discussions. What can be said is that there is a significant difference between the Frazier of 1967 - FOTC and the Frazier who showed up to fight Foreman in 1973. Anyone who doesn't see the difference in Frazier's conditioning is more blind than Ray Charles, Stevie Wonder and Helen Keller combined. In fact, Ali supporters attribute some of his greatness to the condition he left Frazier in, and the fact that both were never the same fighter after the FOTC.

Frazier's loss to Foreman wasn't entirely a stylistic issue. Manuel Ramos, albeit not possesing the power and strength of the fighter that Foreman was, got knocked out in two rounds by a Frazier body shot. Foreman had considerable help in 1973 from Arthur Mercante and any other referee would not have allowed Foreman to use the illegal wrestling tactics to keep Frazier away from him. Within the rules, a fighter cannot push or shove off, and punch underneath while holding the opponent's shoulders. The only way a fighter can get separation is to move his feet or punch.
Ali tried these tactics against Frazier in Manilla and Carlos Padilla wouldn't let him do any of them, consistently slapping Ali's gloves away from Frazier's neck and shoulders, while warning him between the rounds.

I'd bet on 1967 - FOTC conditioned Frazier to survive Foremans early bombs and give him problems after the middle rounds. It's not out of the ordinary to bet on this Frazier beating Foreman because endurance was never one of George's strengths, surprisingly until his second career. Still, Foreman's power and punch output diminishes as the fight goes on whereas Frazier's dominant rounds are usually after the first three.

[mcvey]

If we're talking the Frazier from 1967 - 1970, just prior to the FOTC, I'd say he'd be a very tough assignment for every heavyweight champion in history, even from Sullivan and Jack Johnson's time.

Many on this forum conclude that the bigger punching heavyweight champions, Liston, Foreman, Tyson, Joe Louis and Lennox Lewis would KO Smokin' Joe. I tend to give prime Frazier more respect than that, because nobody came close to KO'ing prime Frazier, except for Bonavena in one of his first fights against a ranked contender. That would have been a three knockdown TKO, not a true KO. One of the knockdowns against Bonavena, I believe the second in the first round, was more of a push-down as well.

Forget using George Foreman as the primary example because there's a huge difference between the fighter he beat inside two rounds, 1973, and the fighter who was the dominant champion in the late 1960's. I have a hard time believing Foreman would KO this version of Frazier early, especially if Joe finds his underappreciated right hand, which he used effectively against Bugner, Quarry, Ellis and Ali. Joe never got a chance to get to George's body because Mercante was letting him push, shove off, and hold Frazier's shoulders, which another referree wouldn't allow to happen.

Compared to Ali, prime Frazier wasn't as slow as people say he was. Ali did land some serious jabs and right hand shots against Frazier in the FOTC, but at the same time, nobody made Ali miss more punches in a fight.

Prime Frazier's head movement, pace, body attack, endurance and overall toughness could give him a punchers chance against anybody. Nobody KO's this version of Frazier, and the only two I'd bet on winning a possible split decision over fifteen rounds is the Ali of 1964 - 1967, and Larry Holmes 1979 - 1980. Lennox Lewis could probably out-box Joe for more than a couple of rounds and keep him on the outside winning a close 12 round contest. I respect Lennox Lewis as an atheletic big man who was more lighter on his feet than a lot of the heavyweight champions. Over 15 rounds though, Frazier would get to Lennox somewhere around 13 or 14 and stop him.

Dempsey, Marciano, Tyson and Holyfield would provide the most exciting two way action fights against prime Frazier, but none of them would beat him.

The dominant Champion of the 60's? Frazier did not hold the unified title till 1970:huhThe dominant Champion of the 60's was undoubtedly Ali.
Bottom line Frazier met ONE REALLY BIG PUNCHER AND HE WAS KOD BY HIM TWICE.Nobody kos this version of Frazier,well I think Dempsey ,Louis,Liston,Marciano.all ko him.

[leverage]

Frazier loses to louis, marciano, dempsey, and liston but beats tunney, charles, walcott, holmes

[Marciano Frazier]

Which other Heavyweight Champions do you think joe could take?


I'm mostly thinking from 1950 onwards.
Linear champs since 1950? I'd pretty clearly favor him over:
Charles
Walcott
Patterson
Johansson
Spinks (I)
Spinks (II)
Douglas
Briggs

I would make him a more marginal favorite over Holmes, Holyfield, and Bowe, and put him at even odds or below against Liston, Ali, Foreman, Tyson and Lewis.

[mcvey]

I agree with you to a certain extent Mr. Magoo. Respect to you for your post and opinion.

You are correct. Frazier wasn't WAY past his prime against Foreman as I have been guilty and others on this forum of saying in past discussions. What can be said is that there is a significant difference between the Frazier of 1967 - FOTC and the Frazier who showed up to fight Foreman in 1973. Anyone who doesn't see the difference in Frazier's conditioning is more blind than Ray Charles, Stevie Wonder and Helen Keller combined. In fact, Ali supporters attribute some of his greatness to the condition he left Frazier in, and the fact that both were never the same fighter after the FOTC.

Frazier's loss to Foreman wasn't entirely a stylistic issue. Manuel Ramos, albeit not possesing the power and strength of the fighter that Foreman was, got knocked out in two rounds by a Frazier body shot. Foreman had considerable help in 1973 from Arthur Mercante and any other referee would not have allowed Foreman to use the illegal wrestling tactics to keep Frazier away from him. Within the rules, a fighter cannot push or shove off, and punch underneath while holding the opponent's shoulders. The only way a fighter can get separation is to move his feet or punch.
Ali tried these tactics against Frazier in Manilla and Carlos Padilla wouldn't let him do any of them, consistently slapping Ali's gloves away from Frazier's neck and shoulders, while warning him between the rounds.

I'd bet on 1967 - FOTC conditioned Frazier to survive Foremans early bombs and give him problems after the middle rounds. It's not out of the ordinary to bet on this Frazier beating Foreman because endurance was never one of George's strengths, surprisingly until his second career. Still, Foreman's power and punch output diminishes as the fight goes on whereas Frazier's dominant rounds are usually after the first three.
When Frazier landed his left hook on Foreman in their first fight Foreman ignored it.Frazier was a one trick pony he knew only ONE way to fight ,keep coming forward.Frazier had good head movement but he was NOT especially elusive, one glance at the photos of his fights with Ali show that ,he looked like a gargoyle after them.His ducking /crouching style led him straight into the path of Foreman's uppercuts and allways would,Foreman got away with pushing Frazier out to the optimum reach for his big looping shots TRUE, but when Frazier got inside ,where he ALLWAYS needed to be he was thumped with uppercuts,Foreman was stronger and hit harder , the few big punches Frazier landed were ignored by George so basically a swarmer meeting a very big bomber who has size ,reach and power advantages is in for a hiding.ps Ramos quit.