What is Jack Blackburn had trained George Foreman

[janitor]

What would the finished product have been like?

[JimmyShimmy]

I say:

-You'd see the jab being a bigger factor
-You'd see a definite shortening of the punches
-You'd see more emphasis on conserving energy and countering

Whether or not this would help or hinder that much is a tough one. Many believe Foreman's overpowering cannonball approach was the most effective for him.

Blackburn's plea for cleaner boxing may have hampered his highly effective push n' punish technique.

[McGrain]

A much better fighter. There's no reason that Blackburn would create an economist here, but he would tighten him up on both fronts. Just what Foreman needed.

[lefthook31]

Worse. Foreman's arms are half the size of his waist. I dont ever see him being a boxer. He had an effective jab and his style was banging hard on the inside. Foreman accomplished a great deal in his career with his fighting style, so I would say it was perfect for him.

[JimmyShimmy]

I am somewhere in between McGrain and lefthook31.

I don't think Blackburn would be adamant on a turning George into a economic boxer, but the boxing traits he would instill in him may dilute his come-forward potential.

[MRBILL]

Worse. Foreman's arms are half the size of his waist. I dont ever see him being a boxer. He had an effective jab and his style was banging hard on the inside. Foreman accomplished a great deal in his career with his fighting style, so I would say it was perfect for him.

Bull manure there.......... Foreman at 6' 4" tall had a good reach of 79".... That's normal for his height and size.......

Jack Blackburn would've been great for Foreman...... At least Foreman would've learned the proper ways to approach and attack a melon farmer in the ring... YES! Under Blackburn's eyes, Foreman would've been a REAL monster with skills by age 23...........:yep

Big Dick and Sandy Sadler didn't teach Foreman shit, and Archie Moore was NOT in position to say a whole lot to Foreman, either..... Moore's input was regulated by the Sadler's... They (Dick & Sandy) were cheerleaders screaming: "Get Him, George" all the time.... I'm sorry, but that aint gonna cut it in the long run.... The Sadler bros. also never showed George Foreman how to properly jab; that came from Sonny Liston & Co.....:shock:

In reality, G.F. didn't learn some decent technique until he hired Gilbert Clancy in 1975. Later on Charlie Shipes and Angelo Dundee..... It's amazing how George Foreman become a much more complete fighter by the age of 40..........
:deal
MR.BILL:bbb

[Bokaj]

I wouldn't second guess the job Moore and Saddler did. Don't think Blackburn would have done it much better.

Foreman started late so he probably didn't have time to develop the best technique, and they instead focussed on the things he did well. But combine Old George and Young George and you would be looking at someone perhaps as great or even greater than Joe Louis.

[janitor]

The consensus seems to be that Blackburn modifies and polishes his style and that it might or might not have been beneficial. Blackburn changed Louis's style beyond recognition because Louis was trained as a defensive fighter by Holman Williams. It was verry much a case of turning lead into gold.

I do think that Blackburn would have improved Foreman as a finisher.

What about a trainer like Charlie Goldman who would not have interfered with Foremans basic style but would have looked to find improvments where he could?

[McGrain]

Blackburn changed Louis's style beyond recognition because Louis was trained as a defensive fighter by Holman Williams.

This is further than I would go. Williams had Louis up on his toes and Blackburn brought him down, but Holman gets credit from me for the Louis jab, also.

Is that a general impression or do you have specific reasons for forming it?

[lefthook31]

Bull manure there.......... Foreman at 6' 4" tall had a good reach of 79".... That's normal for his height and size.......

Jack Blackburn would've been great for Foreman...... At least Foreman would've learned the proper ways to approach and attack a melon farmer in the ring... YES! Under Blackburn's eyes, Foreman would've been a REAL monster with skills by age 23...........:yep

Big Dick and Sandy Sadler didn't teach Foreman shit, and Archie Moore was NOT in position to say a whole lot to Foreman, either..... Moore's input was regulated by the Sadler's... They (Dick & Sandy) were cheerleaders screaming: "Get Him, George" all the time.... I'm sorry, but that aint gonna cut it in the long run.... The Sadler bros. also never showed George Foreman how to properly jab; that came from Sonny Liston & Co.....:shock:

In reality, G.F. didn't learn some decent technique until he hired Gilbert Clancy in 1975. Later on Charlie Shipes and Angelo Dundee..... It's amazing how George Foreman become a much more complete fighter by the age of 40..........
:deal
MR.BILL:bbb
Tall, with a good reach, but again he was built like a fireplug. He used his jab very well, and never would have been able to sustain a jab and move style for an entire fight. The guy was a two time champ, won the gold, I never thought he was good enough to be the greatest of all time, he wasnt nearly as mentally strong in his first career as compared to his second and that is a good part of the reason he became a strong fighter for a 40 year old, I think George accomplished a lot. I wouldnt call him a complete fighter either, his defense even in his older age was suspect. He wasnt the greatest at slipping punches.

[janitor]

This is further than I would go. Williams had Louis up on his toes and Blackburn brought him down, but Holman gets credit from me for the Louis jab, also.

Is that a general impression or do you have specific reasons for forming it?

We dont have any film of the amateur Louis but what testimony I have heard suggests that he esentialy waited for his oponent to come to him and fought defensivley.

Roxborough actualy aproached Louis with an offer to take him on as a profesional after a fight that Louis had lost. Somehow Roxborough could look at the miscast young fighter and see what he could be.

I honestly think that without Blackburn Louis might not have been a great heavyweight champion. The wrong trainer could have made him into an also ran.

[timmers612]

Mr Bill I do agree that Charlie, and maybe Angelo also helped George in his second go become a more complete project, but I've always thought Gil Clancey was an example of how a trainer can goof up what was working well. In wanting to shorten up Georges hooks Gil had George bring his feet closer together, which is where George was getting all his leverage in those moving in jabs and right hands to the body. The result was a standing straight up Foreman throwing pretty jabs with nothing behind them and his uppercuts literally going sideways from his way too close together feet. If you view his bouts with Dino Dennis and later with Jimmy Young you will see the clumsiness in his movement when he tried to go after his foe, and then compare his uppercuts in Frazier 1 to what a wrong trainer can do to a man.

[SuzieQ49]

whats wrong with Dick Saddler and Archie Moore? both very good trainers. They turned foreman into a devastating puncher punching with leverage and body torque and developed him a thudding left jab.

[Chris Warren]

Dick Saddler and Archie Moore just told Foreman to go out and wing it because nobody could stand up to his power. They never taught him the basics and even if they did he probably wouldn't have listen to them.

Tall, with a good reach, but again he was built like a fireplug. He used his jab very well, and never would have been able to sustain a jab and move style for an entire fight. The guy was a two time champ, won the gold, I never thought he was good enough to be the greatest of all time, he wasnt nearly as mentally strong in his first career as compared to his second and that is a good part of the reason he became a strong fighter for a 40 year old, I think George accomplished a lot. I wouldnt call him a complete fighter either, his defense even in his older age was suspect. He wasnt the greatest at slipping punches.


Foreman was hit less in his first 47 fights than any other heavyweight champion in boxing history. Because Ali was able to hit him late in their fight and Ron Lyle was able to hit him does that make his defense bad? I think not.


There are no complete fighters. Ali wasn't a complete fighter because he couldn't work the body. He didnt have world class power, and fighters like Doug Jones and Henry Cooper were able to hurt him big time even though neither were heavyweights.

Joe Louis couldn't take a punch well, Even the light punching Billy Conn ( Between 63 and 70 wins with only 11 to 15 knockouts depending on your source) could hurt him. Joe Louis wasn't good at cutting of the ring,

Mike Tyson was short so he never had much of a jab, he wasnt good a cutting off he ring, He was stopped 5 times which is more than Tommy Morrison so Tyson had a glass chin too, Tyson never got up from a knock down to win a fight.

Larry Holmes wasn't a huge puncher, Larry Holmes never worked the body, He was knocked down by 1 punch by various fighters and hurt by Ray Mercer with a jab.

You could go on and on. Every fighter has major weaknesses. Foreman on the other hand had great power. a great chin, could get up from being knockdown, was good at cutting off the ring. Foreman never learned the fundamentals of boxing and yet he is still a top 5 all time great ( I mean heavyweight fighters who weighed over 205 pounds not 180 pound fights like Dempsey, Marciano and Tunney)

Imagine if Foreman would of learned how to get his weight into his punches, Imagine if he learned to get more snap into this punches. The man would of been unstoppable

[janitor]

whats wrong with Dick Saddler and Archie Moore? both very good trainers. They turned foreman into a devastating puncher punching with leverage and body torque and developed him a thudding left jab.

There is nothing wrong with them but you can imagine how sombody else could have done things verry diferently.

[TheGreatA]

According to Archie Moore himself he had little input in Foreman's style until Big George came back in the 80's.

[GPater11093]

According to Archie Moore himself he had little input in Foreman's style until Big George came back in the 80's.

there was a programme i watched on the Rumble in the Jungle and Archie Moore was with Dundee and Pacheco going over the fight in between rounds and anaylisisng it. Moore said that he was telling Saddler what to do against Ali but he wasnt being listened too

[round15]

Blackburn wouldn't have George winging wild shots like he did against Frazier and Norton before it caught up to him against Ali, Lyle, and Jimmy Young.

Foreman would definitely be a better overall boxer with a much sharper jab and more endurance. Under Blackburn, I could see George using a little more footwork and defense as well.

[mcvey]

What would the finished product have been like?
Blackburn might have been able to shorten Foremans looping punches and tighten up his defence a bit ,but you cant put in what isnt there, imo.Just as Blackburn could not give Louis quick feet ,he could not give Foreman speed or great head movement.
You can polish a rough diamond ,but you cant do anything with a lump of rock, except try and smooth off the rough edges.