What if Futch had let Frazier go one more?

[EireFightFan]

Many feted Eddie Futch's caring and compassionate act for pulling out the near blind Joe Frazier with one round to go of the Thrilla in Manilla. But IMO he robbed Frazier of one of the greatest victories of alll time.

I know that Ali fought one helluva fight and don't want to detract from it but he was asking Dundee to cut the gloves off going back to his corner at the end of the 14th whereas Frazier was begging to be let back out. And Ali was clearly the more damaged fighter in the immediate aftermath of their contest.

Would Frazier's stock now be higher had he been let continue or is it a moot point given the credit he received in defeat?

[McGrain]

Frazier was NOT begging to be sent back out.

FUTCH: What's going on with his right hand?

[no answer]

FUTCH: What is going on with his right hand?

JOE: ...can't see 'em to good.


For a man like Joe that is the closest thing to a cry for help you will ever hear. I've NEVER heard the merest suggestion that Frazier was begging to be let out. If you watch the footage he is shaking his head as they try to slip the gum shield back in...then does it again...then he gets pulled. And shows very little resistance. The first signs of fury developed in the aftermath. Frazier was exhausted.

He was also eating right hands throughout the last round. Sending him out would have been an act of irresponsibility close to violence.

Good stoppage. I really don't even think it was that "humane" like everyone laid out. It was standard.

[anut]

Many feted Eddie Futch's caring and compassionate act for pulling out the near blind Joe Frazier with one round to go of the Thrilla in Manilla. But IMO he robbed Frazier of one of the greatest victories of alll time.

I know that Ali fought one helluva fight and don't want to detract from it but he was asking Dundee to cut the gloves off going back to his corner at the end of the 14th whereas Frazier was begging to be let back out. And Ali was clearly the more damaged fighter in the immediate aftermath of their contest.

Would Frazier's stock now be higher had he been let continue or is it a moot point given the credit he received in defeat?

DUDE ALI WAS UP BY 4 PIONTS WHEN THE FIGHT WAS STOPPED......................FRAZIER WAS NOT GONNA KNOCK ALI OUT.....HIS EYE WAS REAL BAD.............EDDIE FUTCH IS A GENIUS AND THE BEST TRAINER OF ALL TYME........HE DID THE RIGHT THING...AND THE FIGHT WAS NOT CLOSE AT THAT POINT...:smoke:smoke:smoke

[TheGreatA]

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[janitor]

Frazier was NOT begging to be sent back out.

FUTCH: What's going on with his right hand?

[no answer]

FUTCH: What is going on with his right hand?

JOE: ...can't see 'em to good.

For a man like Joe that is the closest thing to a cry for help you will ever hear. I've NEVER heard the merest suggestion that Frazier was begging to be let out. If you watch the footage he is shaking his head as they try to slip the gum shield back in...then does it again...then he gets pulled. And shows very little resistance. The first signs of fury developed in the aftermath. Frazier was exhausted.

He was also eating right hands throughout the last round. Sending him out would have been an act of irresponsibility close to violence.

Good stoppage. I really don't even think it was that "humane" like everyone laid out. It was standard.

Good analysis.

You have to ask however , what hapens if Frazier has Dundee in his corner and Ali has Futch?

Dundee was not in Futch's class as a trainer.

As a cornerman he was the best.

If Ali had Futch in his corner the fight might have been stopped in Fraziers favour.

If Frazier had Dundee in his corner he would have said: "Just go out for one more round. I will throw the towel if I have to".

Ali would have quit and history would have changed.

[TheGreatA]

Good analysis.

You have to ask however , what hapens if Frazier has Dundee in his corner and Ali has Futch?

Dundee was not in Futch's class as a trainer.

As a cornerman he was the best.

I believe Frazier actually said to Futch "I want him boss" after which Futch famously said "It's all over. No one will forget what you did here today". :good

[mcvey]

Many feted Eddie Futch's caring and compassionate act for pulling out the near blind Joe Frazier with one round to go of the Thrilla in Manilla. But IMO he robbed Frazier of one of the greatest victories of alll time.

I know that Ali fought one helluva fight and don't want to detract from it but he was asking Dundee to cut the gloves off going back to his corner at the end of the 14th whereas Frazier was begging to be let back out. And Ali was clearly the more damaged fighter in the immediate aftermath of their contest.

Would Frazier's stock now be higher had he been let continue or is it a moot point given the credit he received in defeat?

In the last couple of rounds Frazier was being caught cleanly with right hands and was backed up a couple of times ,if he had come out for the last round I think he would have been stopped.

[McGrain]

Good analysis.

You have to ask however , what hapens if Frazier has Dundee in his corner and Ali has Futch?

Dundee was not in Futch's class as a trainer.

As a cornerman he was the best.


He wanted the W alright. Joe on the fight:

"I'd come into the bout with a virtually sightless left eye - my vision had deteriorated badly...SO when the swellin on my face worsened around the right eye, limiting my vision there, it left me in a real jam (!)...the right eye began to close. I was fighting Clay in a kind of haze...in the 13th I fought him as best I could...i couldn't really see..."

Now, in between the 13th and 14th:

"The swelling was bad...i told Eddie I couldn't see..."

So regardless of what Frazier said after the 14th, he's already told Futch how bad his eyes were after the 13th round. Now in the 14th round:

"I kept getting hit. WIthout the left eye I couldn't track his right hand. In that 14th, Clay hit me directly in the eye. I couldn't make out punches...i fought on...there was nothing else to do

I've also got what Great A has Frazier saying. "I want him Boss."

But he also says, and for some reason this breaks my heart, "You can call the shots out to me."

[COULDHAVEBEEN]

Good analysis.

You have to ask however , what hapens if Frazier has Dundee in his corner and Ali has Futch? ..... As a cornerman he was the best....

That's a question I've pondered ever since as well.

There are varying accounts of both fighters conditions at the end of 14. Doubt if either really had 3 minutes left in the tank. Did the result really just come down to a game of bluff??

Dundee as a cornerman was of course the consumate pro and also the ultimate hustler when the occassion required (the extra time he bought Ali against Cooper just as an example).

[TBooze]

Ali may of got the job done in the final round Frazier was that far gone, but either way Ali wins either by decision or TKO in the final round.

Ali said it was the closest he he had come to death, but that was out of respect for Frazier in a brilliant fight. If he had, had to, Ali would of fought one final round.

[round15]

There have been varying stories and different arguments about what happened in Manilla, that are still being debated today.

One thing is for certain, Ali did ask for his gloves to be cut off saying, "cut these things off, I ain't going back out there, that's man's crazy." I've heard almost all the arguments with regards to the round which Ali apparently said these famous words.

Some on this forum are adamant that Ali said it as early as the seventh while some say he said it in the 14th round. Others strongly believe Ali said it clearly in the 11th round. From what I've read and heard from Dr. Ferdie Pacheco, former middleweight contender Willie "the Worm" Monroe who was sitting at ringside in Ali's corner and Angelo Dundee, was that Ali said it after the 14th round, just seconds after he punched himself out, ending the third round of his late rally. The traditional story says Ali won the first four rounds, Frazier won rounds 5 through 11, and Ali rallied in the last three rounds before Futch stopped the fight.

Some on this forum have also said Dr. Pacheco "changed" his story in subsequent tv interviews about Ali quitting in the 11th round to the 14th round, giving Frazier who was the loser of the fight, more respectability which is complete garbage.

I honestly don't know what's believable anymore but I do know logically from Ali's mannerisms and how he looked after the 14th round, that the famous "quit" words were likely said in the 14th. His head was down, slumping in his stool, shaking it back and forth in denial and the only person in the corner not paying attention was Dundee, who was preparing him for the last round. Bundini Brown kept pleading with Ali who kept denying and so did Pacheco, until halfway through the break. This is when Pacheco apparently looked over to Frazier's corner and saw Eddie signal to Carlos Padilla to stop the fight.

I don't think Frazier was in any better shape physically because his left eye was completely closed, but he did look to have slightly more energy than Ali. Futch had to literally sit Frazier down and tell him that he was stopping the fight. Frazier said he was ready to go out on his shield, but he'd never go against Eddie.

Who knows what would have happened if Frazier was allowed to continue. I don't believe Ali would have had enough to finish Frazier if the fight continued, based on his actions after the 14th round. Frazier might have had the drive and the strength to land one more good hook to Ali, possibly putting him down, but I think Ali would have done his best to stay away or clinch on tired legs, while Frazier dangerously takes a couple more weak shots to get close.

Manilla was a great, great fight, and it wasn't a blowout with Frazier badly behind on points like most people have said. Dave Smith and Red Anderson had Frazier slightly ahead based on the premise that Joe was always coming forward and making the fight. Ali always fought defensively against Frazier and that does count against him in the scoring, depending on which state of boxing rules form the criteria of the fight.

[McGrain]

Willie Munro testifies to have heard Ali saying it after 14.

[Jear]

I find it interesting that Ali himself mentions Round ten as the time he was unsure he would win, the round when it was first claimed he said to cut off his gloves. Also at the end of 14 Ali sits and places his arms on the middles ropes and is still in that position when the camera cuts back to him after Futch stops the fight, i would expect if he was wanting them cut off then he would have turned them palm up and offered them to someone to cut the tape and laces off.
Its been claimed that Frazier tried to stand up and protest when Futch stopped the fight and Eddie had to push him back into his stool but as that footage shows nothing of the sort happened.
Great stoppage by Eddie.

[round15]

Willie Munro testifies to have heard Ali saying it after 14.

Thank-you Mcgrain.

I'm not sure what you believe or what any one else on this forum believes, but kudos to you for mentioning Willie Monroe, who some didn't even know was a middleweight contender.

I've read the exact same quote from him. Hard to argue against the guy who was sitting right behind Ali's corner at ring side. He said he heard Ali clearly wanting his gloves cut off after the 14th round. Dr. Ferdie Pacheco said the same thing too in tv interviews.

I don't know where the alleged story changed from the 11th round to the 14th round, but after watching Ali throw everything he had left at Frazier in the last round before the fight was stopped makes him wanting to quit in the 14th round that much more believable.

I seriously doubt that Ali would have quit if Futch had let Frazier come out for the 14th. In fact, I think Ali would have stood up in his corner on tired legs and waved Frazier in with his glove like he did in the 11th round of the FOTC.

[round15]

I find it interesting that Ali himself mentions Round ten as the time he was unsure he would win, the round when it was first claimed he said to cut off his gloves. Also at the end of 14 Ali sits and places his arms on the middles ropes and is still in that position when the camera cuts back to him after Futch stops the fight, i would expect if he was wanting them cut off then he would have turned them palm up and offered them to someone to cut the tape and laces off.
Its been claimed that Frazier tried to stand up and protest when Futch stopped the fight and Eddie had to push him back into his stool but as that footage shows nothing of the sort happened.
Great stoppage by Eddie.

Eddie Futch said that he gently pushed Frazier's shoulder down as he was getting up in protest and told him that the fight was over.

"Sit down son, no one will ever forget what you did hear today."

[McGrain]

I seriously doubt that Ali would have quit if Futch had let Frazier come out for the 14th. In fact, I think Ali would have stood up in his corner on tired legs and waved Frazier in with his glove like he did in the 11th round of the FOTC.

I'm quite convinced Ali could have done another six rounds if he'd had to.

[Drew101]

Willie Munro testifies to have heard Ali saying it after 14.

And he may have, but by that point Dundee had probably heard variations of that statement enough from Ali to know what to say, in much the same way that he did when Ali was blinded against Liston in the first fight. Something tells me he knew Muhammad had three minutes of fighting left in him, and would have been able to convince his charge of that as well with a few simple words.

[timmers612]

Round 15, great post!

[spittle8]

Frazier was smoked by that point, putting him in for another round would have been reckless. He might have been stopped if he'd been put in for another round.

[leverage]

Frazier stood a good chance of getting seriously injured if allowed to continue and futch knew it. He was target practice for 2 straight rounds and it wasn't going to get any better because fraziers left eye was swollen shut and he could no longer see the right hands coming.

[djanders]

Both men were completely exhausted at that point. In a 15th round I doubt if either would have been able to stop the other. So, if they had continued, Muhammad Ali would have won the unanimous decision...in my opinion.

With Joe Frazier nearly blind, I think it was a good stoppage.

[EireFightFan]

There have been varying stories and different arguments about what happened in Manilla, that are still being debated today.

One thing is for certain, Ali did ask for his gloves to be cut off saying, "cut these things off, I ain't going back out there, that's man's crazy." I've heard almost all the arguments with regards to the round which Ali apparently said these famous words.

Some on this forum are adamant that Ali said it as early as the seventh while some say he said it in the 14th round. Others strongly believe Ali said it clearly in the 11th round. From what I've read and heard from Dr. Ferdie Pacheco, former middleweight contender Willie "the Worm" Monroe who was sitting at ringside in Ali's corner and Angelo Dundee, was that Ali said it after the 14th round, just seconds after he punched himself out, ending the third round of his late rally. The traditional story says Ali won the first four rounds, Frazier won rounds 5 through 11, and Ali rallied in the last three rounds before Futch stopped the fight.

Some on this forum have also said Dr. Pacheco "changed" his story in subsequent tv interviews about ali quitting in the 11th round to the 14th round, giving Frazier who was the loser of the fight, more respectability which is complete garbage.

I honestly don't know what's believable anymore but I do know logically from Ali's mannerisms and how he looked after the 14th round, that the famous "quit" words were likely said in the 14th. His head was down, slumping in his stool, shaking it back and forth in denial and the only person in the corner not paying attention was Dundee, who was preparing him for the last round. Bundini Brown kept pleading with Ali who kept denying and so did Pacheco, until halfway through the break. This is when Pacheco apparently looked over to Frazier's corner and saw Eddie signal to Carlos Padilla to stop the fight.

I don't think Frazier was in any better shape physically because his left eye was completely closed, but he did look to have slightly more energy than Ali. Futch had to literally sit Frazier down and tell him that he was stopping the fight. Frazier said he was ready to go out on his shield, but he'd never go against Eddie.

Who knows what would have happened if Frazier was allowed to continue. I don't believe Ali would have had enough to finish Frazier if the fight continued, based on his actions after the 14th round. Frazier might have had the drive and the strength to land one more good hook to Ali, possibly putting him down, but I think Ali would have done his best to stay away or clinch on tired legs, while Frazier dangerously takes a couple more weak shots to get close.

Manilla was a great, great fight, and it wasn't a blowout with Frazier badly behind on points like most people have said. Dave Smith and Red Anderson had Frazier slightly ahead based on the premise that Joe was always coming forward and making the fight. Ali always fought defensively against Frazier and that does count against him in the scoring, depending on which state of boxing rules form the criteria of the fight.


Great Post :good

[flamengo]

Good analysis.

You have to ask however , what hapens if Frazier has Dundee in his corner and Ali has Futch?

Dundee was not in Futch's class as a trainer.

As a cornerman he was the best.

If Ali had Futch in his corner the fight might have been stopped in Fraziers favour.

If Frazier had Dundee in his corner he would have said: "Just go out for one more round. I will throw the towel if I have to".

Ali would have quit and history would have changed.


Janitor, if Smokin' Joe had Dundee in his corner, the limited visibilty would have been the same. Whats Dundee going to say??? Dance??

Nothing can return time, or change history unfortunately.

This fight is an absolute killer, and deserves the nostalgic gratitude it recieves.

From this fight alone, we see Ali in control, yet totally exhausted, Frazier relentless, punished to dullness, totally exhausted and nearly blind, and both cornermen being put into the position at the end of the 14th to determine the final result.

Its a Hollywood script, the works of Shakespeare and the romance of Cartland in less than an hour without a script.

I doubt a change of trainers would have changed the outcome.. if the fight went ahead for another 3 minutes, the games history MAY have been changed, with dire result.

[Bokaj]

Great Post :good

No, it's not. It ignores several valid point that have been in this forum already.

1. The version of Ali saying he wanted to quit after the 14:th came 15 years later. THAT'S NOT RELIIABLE SOURCE MATERIAL. Right after the fight the reports in articles was that Ali uttered the words after the 10:th. This is also what's said in Ali's autobiography if I remember correctly, and in the post-fight interview Ali said that it was in the 10:th that he felt doubt about winning but that it then started to turn around.

One should also keep in mind that the whole Cooper thing is a myth as well. The delay was not 3-5 minutes, but actually only 10-15 seconds.

2. Ali was ahead on points. Doesn't matter what effing Red Smith or anyone else say, on the judges cards Ali was well ahead. Futch names this as one of the reasons for throwing in the towel, and in Champions Forever Frazier himself said "on points I was behind in that fight".

End of fukking story. The notion that Ali would quit when clearly leading and pummeling a nearly blind Frazier is not only implausible, it's downright laughable. What ever Monroe and Pacheko (that most here normally treat as a joke) says 15 years after the fact doesn't change this one bit.

[EireFightFan]

No, it's not. It ignores several valid point that have been in this forum already.

1. The version of Ali saying he wanted to quit after the 14:th came 15 years later. THAT'S NOT RELIIABLE SOURCE MATERIAL. Right after the fight the reports in articles was that Ali uttered the words after the 10:th. This is also what's said in Ali's autobiography if I remember correctly, and in the post-fight interview Ali said that it was in the 10:th that he felt doubt about winning but that it then started to turn around.

One should also keep in mind that the whole Cooper thing is a myth as well. The delay was not 3-5 minutes, but actually only 10-15 seconds.

2. Ali was ahead on points. Doesn't matter what effing Red Smith or anyone else say, on the judges cards Ali was well ahead. Futch names this as one of the reasons for throwing in the towel, and in Champions Forever Frazier himself said "on points I was behind in that fight".

End of fukking story. The notion that Ali would quit when clearly leading and pummeling a nearly blind Frazier is not only implausible, it's downright laughable. What ever Monroe and Pacheko (that most here normally treat as a joke) says 15 years after the fact doesn't change this one bit.

I'm not basing my assumptions purely on what Ali is purported to have said, but also on the evidence of my own eyes. Ali's attempted celebration once Futch retired his man, he collapsed. Of course you could put this down to the knowledge that the fight was over, but the effort that Ali expended in the 14th round trying to stop Frazier must also lend credence to the belief that he may not have come out for the last round.

Did Futch have reliable source material that Frazier was behind on the cards?

Regardless of your opinions on the what if? scenario, that was still a great post.

[Bokaj]

I'm not basing my assumptions purely on what Ali is purported to have said, but also on the evidence of my own eyes. Ali's attempted celebration once Futch retired his man, he collapsed. Of course you could put this down to the knowledge that the fight was over, but the effort that Ali expended in the 14th round trying to stop Frazier must also lend credence to the belief that he may not have come out for the last round.

Did Futch have reliable source material that Frazier was behind on the cards?

Regardless of your opinions on the what if? scenario, that was still a great post.

Yeah, Ali collapsed for a while, but he did the same after beating Foreman. Was he saved by the perhaps too quick count that time you think?

Ali didn't want to quit after acting punching bag against Holmes for 10 rounds in a fight he had absolutely no chance of winning, but he would concede his title with just 3 minutes to go when clearly on top? Don't you yourself see how absurd this claim is? That it's based on information that suddenly surfaced some 15 years after the fact, doesn't really help matters either.

The Cooper fight is an excellent example of how the Ali myth warps memories. Dundee and others claim without hesitation that it was a 3-5 minute break because glove had to be siwtched, when actual footage shows that this is very untrue. You do know that Ali never threw his Olympic medal in the river either, don't you?

There's so many legends about Ali that one should always be quite sceptical to the more popular myths, and this is one legend that doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

[flamengo]

Yeah, Ali collapsed for a while, but he did the same after beating Foreman. Was he saved by the perhaps too quick count that time you think?

Ali didn't want to quit after acting punching bag against Holmes for 10 rounds in a fight he had absolutely no chance of winning, but he would concede his title with just 3 minutes to go when clearly on top? Don't you yourself see how absurd this claim is? That it's based on information that suddenly surfaced some 15 years after the fact, doesn't really help matters either.

The Cooper fight is an excellent example of how the Ali myth warps memories. Dundee and others claim without hesitation that it was a 3-5 minute break because glove had to be siwtched, when actual footage shows that this is very untrue. You do know that Ali never threw his Olympic medal in the river either, don't you?

There's so many legends about Ali that one should always be quite sceptical to the more popular myths, and this is one legend that doesn't stand up to scrutiny.


????? What do ya mean he never threw the Gold Medal away??? It a first time news for myself.

[Arka]

????? What do ya mean he never threw the Gold Medal away??? It a first time news for myself.

Good joke. :D

[Bummy Davis]

both men were ready to die....Ali said he did not know if he could go another round...for me Frazier was getting hit too much but we really dont know....I think it would have been worse for Joe

[mcvey]

There have been varying stories and different arguments about what happened in Manilla, that are still being debated today.

One thing is for certain, Ali did ask for his gloves to be cut off saying, "cut these things off, I ain't going back out there, that's man's crazy." I've heard almost all the arguments with regards to the round which Ali apparently said these famous words.

Some on this forum are adamant that Ali said it as early as the seventh while some say he said it in the 14th round. Others strongly believe Ali said it clearly in the 11th round. From what I've read and heard from Dr. Ferdie Pacheco, former middleweight contender Willie "the Worm" Monroe who was sitting at ringside in Ali's corner and Angelo Dundee, was that Ali said it after the 14th round, just seconds after he punched himself out, ending the third round of his late rally. The traditional story says Ali won the first four rounds, Frazier won rounds 5 through 11, and Ali rallied in the last three rounds before Futch stopped the fight.

Some on this forum have also said Dr. Pacheco "changed" his story in subsequent tv interviews about ali quitting in the 11th round to the 14th round, giving Frazier who was the loser of the fight, more respectability which is complete garbage.

I honestly don't know what's believable anymore but I do know logically from Ali's mannerisms and how he looked after the 14th round, that the famous "quit" words were likely said in the 14th. His head was down, slumping in his stool, shaking it back and forth in denial and the only person in the corner not paying attention was Dundee, who was preparing him for the last round. Bundini Brown kept pleading with Ali who kept denying and so did Pacheco, until halfway through the break. This is when Pacheco apparently looked over to Frazier's corner and saw Eddie signal to Carlos Padilla to stop the fight.

I don't think Frazier was in any better shape physically because his left eye was completely closed, but he did look to have slightly more energy than Ali. Futch had to literally sit Frazier down and tell him that he was stopping the fight. Frazier said he was ready to go out on his shield, but he'd never go against Eddie.

Who knows what would have happened if Frazier was allowed to continue. I don't believe Ali would have had enough to finish Frazier if the fight continued, based on his actions after the 14th round. Frazier might have had the drive and the strength to land one more good hook to Ali, possibly putting him down, but I think Ali would have done his best to stay away or clinch on tired legs, while Frazier dangerously takes a couple more weak shots to get close.

Manilla was a great, great fight, and it wasn't a blowout with Frazier badly behind on points like most people have said. Dave Smith and Red Anderson had Frazier slightly ahead based on the premise that Joe was always coming forward and making the fight. Ali always fought defensively against Frazier and that does count against him in the scoring, depending on which state of boxing rules form the criteria of the fight.

Based on Ali's actions DURING the 14th round,I think he would have stopped Frazier in the last round and maybe permanently injured him.

[McGrain]

Based on Ali's actions DURING the 14th round,I think he would have stopped Frazier in the last round and maybe permanently injured him.


I think that Frazier would have got home, but Ali already had permenantly injured him. A few days later the left eye was entirely blind, and although that would change over the following weeks it was stille even worse than before the fight.

This idea that Ali was going to collapse is bullshit. And that's coming from one of the biggest Frazier fans on the board. I don't care for Ali. But i'm also convinced that his will would have held him together for another six rounds if neccesary. That's the type of man he was. That's who he was. Mentally, I doubt there has ever been a stronger champion, though he was in the ring with one was as strong that night.

[DocDevil]

I remember listening to the fight on the radio,Floyd Patterson was the comentary guest,and did a lot better job than Norton did for Don Dunphy.In the late rounds 13 and 14 Floyd was saying of Ali,I think he is winning this fight,but now he wants to show everybody he can punch.He wants to knock Frazier out.

[SteveO]

Joe doesn't make it happen.

Might be a boring round with Ali just waiting it out and jabbing to keep the mostly-blind Joe away from him.

[MrMarvel]

Frazier was getting drilled. He was done. Futch saved Frazier from almost certain knockout or stoppage.

[round15]

Frazier was getting drilled. He was done. Futch saved Frazier from almost certain knockout or stoppage.

I disagree.

Ali had literally nothing left and I don't think he could have thrown a strong enough punch to stop Frazier. I don't dispute that he would have found the strength to continue through the 15th had Futch let Frazier come out of his corner. Joe seemed to want i more because Futch had to sit Joe down in his stool before he stopped the fight.

Who knows, maybe Ali lands a couple of more jabs and rights, making Frazier stumble like he did in the 14th. Based on his energy at the end of the round, and how he punched himself out, I believe he wouldn't have had a whole lot left to offer in terms of offense.

[Bokaj]

I disagree.

Ali had literally nothing left and I don't think he could have thrown a strong enough punch to stop Frazier. I don't dispute that he would have found the strength to continue through the 15th had Futch let Frazier come out of his corner. Joe seemed to want i more because Futch had to sit Joe down in his stool before he stopped the fight.

Who knows, maybe Ali lands a couple of more jabs and rights, making Frazier stumble like he did in the 14th. Based on his energy at the end of the round, and how he punched himself out, I believe he wouldn't have had a whole lot left to offer in terms of offense.

I agree that Ali probably wouldn't have KO'd Joe. Padilla might have stopped it, though. He said he was on standby for doing just that.

[GPater11093]

it was a good stoppage no argument it shouldnt have continued

if dundee had been in joes corner he would have called it too

as for the clay-cooper fight he got 5 extra seconds and used the same gloves nothing really happened except he got told to use the same gloves