Does RJJ v Ruiz compare to Duran v Barkley?

[Bokaj]

I'd guess that most automatically answer "no" to this one, but there are reasons to think that the achievements aren't that far apart.


* Ruiz were probably more or less as good a HW as Barkley was a MW.

* Ruiz weighed almost 60 lbs over Jones's best weight, while Barkley only weighed 25 lbs over Duran's.

* Jones was a couple of years younger than Duran was against Barkley, but he was also well into his 30's.

* Jones's win was clearer.

There are more things to it, but that does give at least a bit perspective.

[lefthook31]

I always thought RJ was a small lightheavy, and was so impressed how he just blew guys out. Fighting at heavyweight he looked ridiculous with his chicken legs and his huge upper body. To me that was incredible to see a guy that really should have been at 168 tops, fighting a guy over 200 pounds that was a seasoned heavyweight. Its not Ruiz was feather fisted guy either, he could punch a little. I think there is no comparison here.
He was just a freak of nature with his speed, and its ashame now to see him look ordinary now that he has lost a step.

[Bokaj]

I always thought RJ was a small lightheavy, and was so impressed how he just blew guys out. Fighting at heavyweight he looked ridiculous with his chicken legs and his huge upper body. To me that was incredible to see a guy that really should have been at 168 tops, fighting a guy over 200 pounds that was a seasoned heavyweight. Its not Ruiz was feather fisted guy either, he could punch a little. I think there is no comparison here.
He was just a freak of nature with his speed, and its ashame now to see him look ordinary now that he has lost a step.

How do you feel Jones's win stacks up against Duran's over Barkley, then?

[PowerPuncher]

Yes, both were much smaller men who were fighting limited titlists who were not nearly the best in their respective divisions.

[DINAMITA]

Absolutely not. Jones-Ruiz is closer to Toney-Jirov than it is to Duran-Barkley. Duran's win over Barkley is on another level.

Jones-Ruiz or Toney-Jirov would have been a better thread.

[Bokaj]

Absolutely not. Jones-Ruiz is closer to Toney-Jirov than it is to Duran-Barkley. Duran's win over Barkley is on another level.

Jones-Ruiz or Toney-Jirov would have been a better thread.

OK, why is Duran v Barkley on another level?

[la-califa]

To come close to what Duran did to Barkley. Jones would have to have beaten a fighter on the level of, Rahman, or Bruno. Not Ruiz.

[Bokaj]

To come close to what Duran did to Barkley. Jones would have to have beaten a fighter on the level of, Rahman, or Bruno. Not Ruiz.


But these guys were 60-70 lbs above Jones's best weight. That's could in a way be compared to pitting Duran against a CW. I know that the comparison isn't quite as straightforward as that, that there are diminishing returns to weight advantage after a certain point, but still...

[196osh]

To come close to what Duran did to Barkley. Jones would have to have beaten a fighter on the level of, Rahman, or Bruno. Not Ruiz.


Ruiz beat Rahman in 2003. :good

[DINAMITA]

OK, why is Duran v Barkley on another level?

Here's a list cobbled together from the other Duran-Barkley thread:
- Duran was 38

- He was a natural lightweight

- The fight was two traditional/classic divisions up

- The guy he was fighting was a natural mw & current world champ

- The only man to beat Barkley in the previous 5 years was the superb
Sumbu Kalambay

- Barkley had stopped Hearns in 3 rounds in his previous fight, and so was rightfully a huge favourite

- Barkley took the excellent Michael Nunn to an SD in his next fight

- Barkley was bigger, stronger, younger, fresher, had better power

- Duran won the fight convincingly, even though it was close & competitive. His performance was nothing short of magnificent

- Duran KD'd Barkley

- Barkley was a better mw than Ruiz was a hw

- When was the last time a lw champ moved up and won a mw title?

- Duran was in his 22nd year as a pro (started a long way away below mw)

[lefthook31]

To come close to what Duran did to Barkley. Jones would have to have beaten a fighter on the level of, Rahman, or Bruno. Not Ruiz.
Ruiz beat Rahman. To answer the question above, I think it was a bigger win in my mind. In reality Jones could have competed at heavyweight at 170, the added weight hurt more than helped, so fighting guys 30-40 pounds heavier was something special in my book. The difference just in punching power was huge. It was common to see lightweights sparring with middleweights in the gym, but not middleweights and heavyweights, it was just too much of a power difference.
Styles make fights. Who would have thought Manny Pac would completely dominate and stop ODH.

[Bokaj]

Here's a list cobbled together from the other Duran-Barkley thread:
- Duran was 38

- He was a natural lightweight

- The fight was two traditional/classic divisions up

- The guy he was fighting was a natural mw & current world champ

- The only man to beat Barkley in the previous 5 years was the superb
Sumbu Kalambay

- Barkley had stopped Hearns in 3 rounds in his previous fight, and so was rightfully a huge favourite

- Barkley took the excellent Michael Nunn to an SD in his next fight

- Barkley was bigger, stronger, younger, fresher, had better power

- Duran won the fight convincingly, even though it was close & competitive. His performance was nothing short of magnificent

- Duran KD'd Barkley

- Barkley was a better mw than Ruiz was a hw

- When was the last time a lw champ moved up and won a mw title?

- Duran was in his 22nd year as a pro (started a long way away below mw)

Most of these were adressed in my opening post. And some are questionable:

*Were Barkley really a better MW than Ruiz was a HW? Perhaps, but to me there doesn't seem to have been terribly much between them.

*Yes, Duran's victory was clear and he scored a KD, but it was still close and Duran was hurt/rocked on several occassions. Jones win was pretty plain sailing, wouldn't you say?


But you made one important point that I actually was waiting for: While Jones's feat had been done before, Duran was alone with his. This does tell me something, actually. But I'm not sure that it by itself means that the wins are on different levels.

[DINAMITA]

But these guys were 60-70 lbs above Jones's best weight. That's could in a way be compared to pitting Duran against a CW. I know that the comparison isn't quite as straightforward as that, that there are diminishing returns to weight advantage after a certain point, but still...

Is Chagaev-Valuev as good a win as Duran v Barkley as well then?

Valuev beat Ruiz, and Chagaev was giving away far more weight v Valuev than Jones was v Ruiz.

Weight is not the only factor, nor even the single most important one.

[Bokaj]

Is Chagaev-Valuev as good a win as Duran v Barkley as well then?

Valuev beat Ruiz, and Chagaev was giving away far more weight v Valuev than Jones was v Ruiz.

Weight is not the only factor, nor even the single most important one.

Well, you saw what I wrote about diminishing returns and this is certainly true over 230 lbs. But most would agree that there ARE differences between 167-175 lbs and 220-225 lbs.

[DINAMITA]

Well, you saw what I wrote about diminishing returns and this is certainly true over 230 lbs. But most would agree that there ARE differences between 167-175 lbs and 220-225 lbs.

Jones didn't weigh 167-175lbs though. He weighed in at 193lbs and was apparently around 200lbs on fight night. Is a brilliant cruiser/borderline heavy beating a mediocre heavy who was around 220lbs as good as Duran-Barkley? I think not.

[lefthook31]

Is Chagaev-Valuev as good a win as Duran v Barkley as well then?

Valuev beat Ruiz, and Chagaev was giving away far more weight v Valuev than Jones was v Ruiz.

Weight is not the only factor, nor even the single most important one.

I think the signficance of Ruiz being a solid heavyweight and Jones being a blown up middleweight who gained nothing by adding the weight, was the biggest factor in this comparison in my mind. Like I said, it was more than Jones just moving up, it was like Jones tieing lead weights to his arms, and facing a bigger puncher than he ever had because the weight hurt him more than helped.
Valueav is a total joke, did he really beat Ruiz? Does he have any track record of being a big puncher and you are comparing two true heavyweights. The body is far different at 215+ pounds, not so much in Valuevs case at 300+ Thats like comparing Butterbean to Larry Holmes.:dead

[PowerPuncher]

Here's a list cobbled together from the other Duran-Barkley thread:
- Duran was 38

- He was a natural lightweight

- The fight was two traditional/classic divisions up

- The guy he was fighting was a natural mw & current world champ

- The only man to beat Barkley in the previous 5 years was the superb
Sumbu Kalambay

- Barkley had stopped Hearns in 3 rounds in his previous fight, and so was rightfully a huge favourite

- Barkley took the excellent Michael Nunn to an SD in his next fight

- Barkley was bigger, stronger, younger, fresher, had better power

- Duran won the fight convincingly, even though it was close & competitive. His performance was nothing short of magnificent

- Duran KD'd Barkley

- Barkley was a better mw than Ruiz was a hw

- When was the last time a lw champ moved up and won a mw title?

- Duran was in his 22nd year as a pro (started a long way away below mw)

Jones was 34yo when he took this HW title

Jones was a natural MW

The fight was 2 traditional weight classes up, a man 65lbs above his prime weight

- The guy he was fighting was a natural HW & current world champ

- The only man to beat Ruiz in the previous 9 years was the superb Evander Holyfield

- Ruiz had beaten Holyfield and Kirk Johnson and would beat Rahman, Golota, Oquendo

- Ruiz took the excellent Valuev and Chageav to controversal SDs way past his prime at 36yo

- Ruiz was bigger, stronger, younger, fresher, had better power

- Jones won the fight by shut out it wasn't even competitive. His performance was nothing short of magnificent

- Jones hurt Ruiz

- Ruiz was a better HW than Barkley was a MW

- When was the last time a MW champ moved up and won a HW title?

- Jones was in his 14th year as a pro (started a long way away below HW) not including many years as an amateur

[lefthook31]

Jones was 34yo when he took this HW title

Jones was a natural MW

The fight was 2 traditional weight classes up, a man 65lbs above his prime weight

- The guy he was fighting was a natural HW & current world champ

- The only man to beat Ruiz in the previous 9 years was the superb Evander Holyfield

- Ruiz had beaten Holyfield and Kirk Johnson and would beat Rahman, Golota, Oquendo

- Ruiz took the excellent Valuev and Chageav to controversal SDs way past his prime at 36yo

- Ruiz was bigger, stronger, younger, fresher, had better power

- Jones won the fight by shut out it wasn't even competitive. His performance was nothing short of magnificent

- Jones hurt Ruiz

- Ruiz was a better HW than Barkley was a MW

- When was the last time a MW champ moved up and won a HW title?

- Jones was in his 14th year as a pro (started a long way away below HW) not including many years as an amateur

I tend to agree that Ruiz was a little underated. The KO loss to Tua and his unpleasing style, overshadowed some decent wins and accomplishments in the divison.

[DINAMITA]

Most of these were adressed in my opening post. And some are questionable:

*Were Barkley really a better MW than Ruiz was a HW? Perhaps, but to me there doesn't seem to have been terribly much between them.

Absolutely, Barkley was considerably better. I don't think you did address most of those points in your opening, not satisfactorily anyway.

*Yes, Duran's victory was clear and he scored a KD, but it was still close and Duran was hurt/rocked on several occassions. Jones win was pretty plain sailing, wouldn't you say?

Yes. Jones was brilliant. But Barkley performed on the night and was outfought, Ruiz did not perform at all. For all Jones's skills, Ruiz was horribly inept and impotent. Had he showed a bit of fire and conviction, perhaps people would view Roy's win as better than they do currently. Unfair perhaps, but understandable. People don't like easy shutouts (see the current rating of Pacquiao-Oscar for example).

But you made one important point that I actually was waiting for: While Jones's feat had been done before, Duran was alone with his. This does tell me something, actually. But I'm not sure that it by itself means that the wins are on different levels.

Jones-Ruiz was a great achievement, but Duran-Barkley was clearly superior IMO.

[Bokaj]

Ok. This is what the discussion boils down to me so far:

Pro Duran v Barkley

* It hadn't been done before.

* Duran was 38 and had a long, long pro career behind him already.


Pro Jones v Ruiz

* Was an easier win than Duran's was.


So, yeah, Duran v Barkley wins it. If it is on another level is another thing, though.

[DINAMITA]

Ok. This is what the discussion boils down to me so far:

Pro Duran v Barkley

* It hadn't been done before.

* Duran was 38 and had a long, long pro career behind him already.


Pro Jones v Ruiz

* Was an easier win than Duran's was.


So, yeah, Duran v Barkley wins it. If it is on another level is another thing, though.

It is on another level to me, but I do see your point. Jones-Ruiz was a historic win and I wouldn't quarrel with anyone who said it was of a comparable level.

[Bad_Intentions]

Here's a list cobbled together from the other Duran-Barkley thread:
- Duran was 38

- He was a natural lightweight

- The fight was two traditional/classic divisions up

- The guy he was fighting was a natural mw & current world champ

- The only man to beat Barkley in the previous 5 years was the superb
Sumbu Kalambay

- Barkley had stopped Hearns in 3 rounds in his previous fight, and so was rightfully a huge favourite

- Barkley took the excellent Michael Nunn to an SD in his next fight

- Barkley was bigger, stronger, younger, fresher, had better power

- Duran won the fight convincingly, even though it was close & competitive. His performance was nothing short of magnificent

- Duran KD'd Barkley

- Barkley was a better mw than Ruiz was a hw

- When was the last time a lw champ moved up and won a mw title?

- Duran was in his 22nd year as a pro (started a long way away below mw)

:good

[la-califa]

Ruiz beat Rahman. To answer the question above, I think it was a bigger win in my mind. In reality Jones could have competed at heavyweight at 170, the added weight hurt more than helped, so fighting guys 30-40 pounds heavier was something special in my book. The difference just in punching power was huge. It was common to see lightweights sparring with middleweights in the gym, but not middleweights and heavyweights, it was just too much of a power difference.
Styles make fights. Who would have thought Manny Pac would completely dominate and stop ODH.
Oh Yeah! (Like I track Ruiz' career). Any Middleweight who takes a Heavyweight Championship is a great feat in itsself. But to really mean something, Jones should have taken on one of the more decorated Heavyweight Champions. It's like Leonard stepping up to take LaLonde's title. Yeah he stepped up and did it, but there was alot better opposition out there. back to the subject, Barkley was a more formiddable champion, who had defeated Thomas Hearns. & had a better reputation as champion.

[lefthook31]

Oh Yeah! (Like I track Ruiz' career). Any Middleweight who takes a Heavyweight Championship is a great feat in itsself. But to really mean something, Jones should have taken on one of the more decorated Heavyweight Champions. It's like Leonard stepping up to take LaLonde's title. Yeah he stepped up and did it, but there was alot better opposition out there. back to the subject, Barkley was a more formiddable champion, who had defeated Thomas Hearns. & had a better reputation as champion.
At the time of the fight, with exception of Lennox Lewis he did take on the best available, certainly the most accomplished of the sh*t bunch.

[GPater11093]

word on th grapevine is that Roy Jones Jr is going back up to heavyweight afterhis next fight

[la-califa]

At the time of the fight, with exception of Lennox Lewis he did take on the best available, certainly the most accomplished of the sh*t bunch.
:lol: Sooo True, The Heavyweights were sure in a sorry state then!

[PowerPuncher]

Oh Yeah! (Like I track Ruiz' career). Any Middleweight who takes a Heavyweight Championship is a great feat in itsself. But to really mean something, Jones should have taken on one of the more decorated Heavyweight Champions. It's like Leonard stepping up to take LaLonde's title. Yeah he stepped up and did it, but there was alot better opposition out there. back to the subject, Barkley was a more formiddable champion, who had defeated Thomas Hearns. & had a better reputation as champion.

Oh Yeah! Any Lightweight who takes a Middleweight Championship is a great feat in itself. But to really mean something, Duran should have taken on one of the more decorated MW Champions like Nunn, McCallum, Kalambay, Leonard, Benn

[PowerPuncher]

* It hadn't been done before..

I take it you mean winning LW and MW titles, but the thing is Barkley wasn't Linear champ and had lost to Kalambay who had just lost to Nunn

[la-califa]

Oh Yeah! Any Lightweight who takes a Middleweight Championship is a great feat in itself. But to really mean something, Duran should have taken on one of the more decorated MW Champions like Nunn, McCallum, Kalambay, Leonard, Benn Very doubtful Nunn,Kalambay or Benn could have defeated Hearns two out of two times. Duran took the best(Hagler) the distance. To keep in perspective, Could Jones have extended Lewis to the distance?

[Senya13]

Ruiz was by far better fighter than Barkley, much more consistent, staying at or near the top of the division for at least 10 years.

[Bokaj]

Very doubtful Nunn,Kalambay or Benn could have defeated Hearns two out of two times. Duran took the best(Hagler) the distance. To keep in perspective, Could Jones have extended Lewis to the distance?

But is that really keeping the perspective? Hagler was 25 lb heavier than Duran, Lewis was some 80 lbs heavier than Jones - not to meantion huge differences in height and reach.

Hearns had not nearly those size advantages against Duran but utterly destroyed him.

[DINAMITA]

Oh Yeah! Any Lightweight who takes a Middleweight Championship is a great feat in itself. But to really mean something, Duran should have taken on one of the more decorated MW Champions like Nunn, McCallum, Kalambay, Leonard, Benn

Nunn and Benn more decorated than Barkley by the time of Duran-Barkley? :?

[Mantequilla]

THe main problem for the ruiz win for me is that a fat, far from great Toney managed to replicate it.

[la-califa]

But is that really keeping the perspective? Hagler was 25 lb heavier than Duran, Lewis was some 80 lbs heavier than Jones - not to meantion huge differences in height and reach.

Hearns had not nearly those size advantages against Duran but utterly destroyed him. Like Glen Johnson's advantages when he destroyed Jones?

[DINAMITA]

Jones was 34yo when he took this HW title

True.

Jones was a natural MW

I have Jones's career set. He never looked as good or as comfortable as he did at 168. His physique was too awesome to be held to 160lbs. IMO, he was a natural smw.

The fight was 2 traditional weight classes up, a man 65lbs above his prime weight

Numerically, this is undoubtedly impressive. As was Pacquiao v De La Hoya. The reality is a bit of a different story.

The guy he was fighting was a natural HW & current world champ

One of the worst world champs of his era? I don't think it's unfair to call Ruiz that. He is better than he is often given credit for, that much is true, but he was not a good hw champion never mind a great one. He was adequate.

The only man to beat Ruiz in the previous 9 years was the superb Evander Holyfield

Come on PP! Holyfield was not superb when he fought Ruiz.

Ruiz had beaten Holyfield and Kirk Johnson and would beat Rahman, Golota, Oquendo

This is a good and often overlooked point, hence why I said Ruiz is better than he is often given credit for. The man was a decent hw, he did manage some wins over solid comp among the dreadful performances and the losses.

Ruiz was bigger, stronger, younger, fresher, had better power

I'm not sure Ruiz had better power, even at hw. He had 20lbs on Roy, but Roy's punches looked a lot more venomous than Ruiz's did.

Fresher? Yes he had less fights but I don't know if that translates into freshness. Watch the fight, tell me how looks fresher. Jones is on fire boxing like a 22-year-old, Ruiz plods around like a doddering loser. Saying Ruiz is fresher is pretty meaningless really.

Jones won the fight by shut out it wasn't even competitive. His performance was nothing short of magnificent

True. Jones was magnificent. But Ruiz did not push him. It's up to you if you think that was because Roy was so good or Ruiz was so bad.

Jones hurt Ruiz

Roy did stun him. His punches did affect Ruiz, probably in a way Ruiz didn't expect.

Ruiz was a better HW than Barkley was a MW

That's bias talking. Absolutely no chance. I don't care about Barkley's later losses, the Iran that fought Duran was a FAR better boxer than the Ruiz who fought Jones.

When was the last time a MW champ moved up and won a HW title?

Toney. Oh, you mean before Roy? :D Yeah, Fitzsimmons. A ludicrously long time. It is without doubt a brilliant achievement IMO.

- Jones was in his 14th year as a pro (started a long way away below HW) not including many years as an amateur

Not anywhere near as impressive as Duran's feat I'm sure you'll concede. 22 years as a pro, beat Barkley SEVENTEEN years after his first world title win - longer than Jones had been a pro. :think


Powerpuncher, you have definitely made some good, valid points in your post. But you have, to an extent, undermined all of that good work with this SHAMEFULLY biased comment which has been clearly made to further your case:

Ruiz took the excellent Valuev and Chageav to controversal SDs way past his prime at 36yo

THE. EXCELLENT. VALUEV.

And not a hint of sarcasm in sight. Shame on you. :-(

[Senya13]

Barkley was a one-punch wonder at the time, who was losing the fight clearly before he managed to land on Hearns. A mediocrity with no skills at all, just some toughness and a punch.

[Bokaj]

Like Glen Johnson's advantages when he destroyed Jones?

But this is kind of straying from the subject isn't it? You implied that Duran-Hagler could be compared to Jones taking on Lewis, and there just is no truth to that. Let's end it there.

[Bokaj]

Yes. Jones was brilliant. But Barkley performed on the night and was outfought, Ruiz did not perform at all. For all Jones's skills, Ruiz was horribly inept and impotent. Had he showed a bit of fire and conviction, perhaps people would view Roy's win as better than they do currently. Unfair perhaps, but understandable. People don't like easy shutouts (see the current rating of Pacquiao-Oscar for example)

But this one of the things that irritates me the most with this board. Almost everyone time a fighter makes an ATG seem ineffectual ridiculous excuses are made. EVERY effing time. Leonard-Duran II, Ali-Liston, Jones-Toney, Douglas-Tyson etc, etc. Hey, how about they were ineffectual because the other guy did a good job? Could it be that crazy?

[Bokaj]

One should also note that Duran grew naturally into a MW. He had been competing at that weight for while before he beat Barkley. Jones put on 20-25 lbs right before the fight. He skipped CW entirely.

[DINAMITA]

But this one of the things that irritates me the most with this board. Almost everyone time a fighter makes an ATG seem ineffectual ridiculous excuses are made. EVERY effing time. Leonard-Duran II, Ali-Liston, Jones-Toney, Douglas-Tyson etc, etc. Hey, how about they were ineffectual because the other guy did a good job? Could it be that crazy?

You can't say they are all ridiculous excuses, same as you can't say they are all true and perfectly legitimate reasons for a poor performance. You simply have to study the fights, study the contexts, and make your own judgment on each on a case-by-case basis.

Sometimes there are genuine mitigating circumstances, sometimes there are not and the excuses are just excuses. There is no hard and fast rule.

[DINAMITA]

One should also note that Duran grew naturally into a MW. He had been competing at that weight for while before he beat Barkley. Jones put on 20-25 lbs right before the fight. He skipped CW entirely.

Fighting consistently at a weight that is too high for you is not the same as growing into it. Duran was fighting at mw, but he was never a genuine mw, he could easily have trained himself down to a lower weight. Had he retired before his mid-30s, he would never have made it to mw.

Jones's weight-jump was special, no-one can or should deny that. But a feat of weight-gain is not the same as a feat of boxing. One compliments the other, but it does not make it what it is (another reference must be made to the almost non-existent credit given in retrospect to Pacquiao for his own stunning weight-related achievement in shutting out Oscar).

[Bokaj]

You can't say they are all ridiculous excuses, same as you can't say they are all true and perfectly legitimate reasons for a poor performance. You simply have to study the fights, study the contexts, and make your own judgment on each on a case-by-case basis.

Sometimes there are genuine mitigating circumstances, sometimes there are not and the excuses are just excuses. There is no hard and fast rule.

There is a very suspicious correletion that excuses are raining fast and hard when it comes to these fights. Name me one fight where an ATG is made to look ineffectual that is not surrounded by "mitigating circumstances".

[Bokaj]

Fighting consistently at a weight that is too high for you is not the same as growing into it. Duran was fighting at mw, but he was never a genuine mw, he could easily have trained himself down to a lower weight. Had he retired before his mid-30s, he would never have made it to mw.

Jones's weight-jump was special, no-one can or should deny that. But a feat of weight-gain is not the same as a feat of boxing. One compliments the other, but it does not make it what it is (another reference must be made to the almost non-existent credit given in retrospect to Pacquiao for his own stunning weight-related achievement in shutting out Oscar).

Sure, Duran could have fought at lower weight. But he did not have to beef up to make MW in his 30's and he was not fat and out of shape at that weight either.

[lefthook31]

Fighting consistently at a weight that is too high for you is not the same as growing into it. Duran was fighting at mw, but he was never a genuine mw, he could easily have trained himself down to a lower weight. Had he retired before his mid-30s, he would never have made it to mw.

Jones's weight-jump was special, no-one can or should deny that. But a feat of weight-gain is not the same as a feat of boxing. One compliments the other, but it does not make it what it is (another reference must be made to the almost non-existent credit given in retrospect to Pacquiao for his own stunning weight-related achievement in shutting out Oscar).
As said before weight gains are usually and advantage to a fighter moving up in class. In this case, I think its hard to debate that it wasnt more of a disadvantage for the speedy Jones to pack on that much extra weight. Something that makes his accomplishment more special in my opinion.

[DINAMITA]

There is a very suspicious correletion that excuses are raining fast and hard when it comes to these fights. Name me one fight where an ATG is made to look ineffectual that is not surrounded by "mitigating circumstances".

Do you consider top 100 OAT fighters ATGs, or do you have a more specific definition/more selective entry requirement?

[DINAMITA]

Sure, Duran could have fought at lower weight. But he did not have to beef up to make MW in his 30's and he was not fat and out of shape at that weight either.

Nor was Jones. He was in stunning shape v Ruiz.

[DINAMITA]

As said before weight gains are usually and advantage to a fighter moving up in class. In this case, I think its hard to debate that it wasnt more of a disadvantage for the speedy Jones to pack on that much extra weight. Something that makes his accomplishment more special in my opinion.

Had he been fighting a quick hw, I'd agree with you more strongly than I do now (I concur to an extent which falls short of total agreement). Ruiz was about as fast as an 80-year-old prostitute removing her underpants. Jones put on 20lbs or so of muscle, and did not look like he lost much speed to me, at least not in a p4p sense.

[lefthook31]

Had he been fighting a quick hw, I'd agree with you more strongly than I do now (I concur to an extent which falls short of total agreement). Ruiz was about as fast as an 80-year-old prostitute removing her underpants. Jones put on 20lbs or so of muscle, and did not look like he lost much speed to me, at least not in a p4p sense.
See now I disagree with that. I would consider Ruiz one of the quicker heavyweights of the bunch.

[TheGreatA]

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:good

[DINAMITA]

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:good



Quality illustration for this thread amigo. None of us should lose sight of the fact these were both special victories achieved by two amazing fighters. :good

[DINAMITA]

See now I disagree with that. I would consider Ruiz one of the quicker heavyweights of the bunch.

Did you think he was any faster than slow as shit v Jones? For all that Jones was fast, Ruiz was ponderous, cumbersome, and plodding - and I mean even by hw standards not Jones's standards. Imagine a younger version of Holyfield in there with Ruiz, he would have made Ruiz look like a statue as well.

[MAG1965]

I'd guess that most automatically answer "no" to this one, but there are reasons to think that the achievements aren't that far apart.


* Ruiz were probably more or less as good a HW as Barkley was a MW.

* Ruiz weighed almost 60 lbs over Jones's best weight, while Barkley only weighed 25 lbs over Duran's.

* Jones was a couple of years younger than Duran was against Barkley, but he was also well into his 30's.

* Jones's win was clearer.

There are more things to it, but that does give at least a bit perspective.
It is similar in that Ruiz and Barkley were good style matchups for Jones and Duran. Had Duran fought the other champ at the time Nunn and Jones fought Lennox, there would have been troubles for them both.

[DINAMITA]

It is similar in that Ruiz and Barkley were good style matchups for Jones and Duran. Had Duran fought the other champ at the time Nunn and Jones fought Lennox, there would have been troubles for them both.

Style match-ups yes... but also Nunn and Lewis were simply better fighters. Plus Lewis had the obvious colossal physical advantages.

[MAG1965]

Style match-ups yes... but also Nunn and Lewis were simply better fighters. Plus Lewis had the obvious colossal physical advantages.
That is true. Duran/Barkley was a great fight. The Duran win hides the fact that the fight was a brawl. Iran fought a master inside fighter and Iran was an inside fighter.

[Bokaj]

Nor was Jones. He was in stunning shape v Ruiz.

Yeah, he beefed up.

[MAG1965]

Yeah, he beefed up.
I do not think the Ruiz win was that great nor was the Duran one. Jones at the time was rarely hit by anyone, and Ruiz could not punch hard at all, even if he outweighed Jones (since Ruiz was then a lot slower also). So what was the risk for Jones? He fights his same fight and uses his speed to win a decision. I do not think it was that great a win. And the Duran win I knew would happen. When they signed that fight I told myself Duran is going to win that one. Barkley landed a great punch with Hearns no doubt, but the fact was that had Hearns stayed on his feet and been a little more careful, a few more bodyshots would have knocked down Iran and that would have been considered and easy 3rd or 4th round knockout win for Tommy. Hearns was busting up Iran's body and face. It was a matter of time. Hearns was his own fault in that fight. He got careless like he tended to when he was winning easily. Kalambay had already beaten Iran in late 1987 anyway, and Nunn after Duran beat Iran also as did Benn in one round. Barkley was ok, but no great fighter., and Olajide almost stopped him. I think both wins are comparable in that Duran and RJJ had very ordinary guys in front of them who they could beat. The great thing about the Duran win was that he was hit with some clean shots and still came back to win, although the style matchup was perfect for him. That was Duran's fight. Yes they beat bigger guys, but in all honesty Ruiz or Barkley are not great fighters. Those two guys get more credit for those wins ,than Hearns did for beating Virgil Hill in 1991 when Virgil had 10 title defenses and was undefeated and 6 years younger than Hearns. That was a great win, yet no one talks about that. If it were not for the Hearns win, Iran Barkley would be considered a decent fighter, but not a big deal to beat. And also, Hearns offense did more damage to Iran than most of the guys who fought him. But like I said, Hearns got careless.

[Shake]

It isn't the same for me because of various things that defy statistics (though statistics favor DuranvsBarkley as well), namely, Duran fought inside with Barkley, took the best shots the man had to offer, survived an entire round while hurt against a brutal middleweight puncher, didn't have any advantages coming in (slight advantage in handspeed while giving up huge in height, reach, build and punch vs Roy Jones' always present athleticism).

Many could envision Roy Jones beating Ruiz the way he did -- using reflexes and speed of foot and hand to grind out a decision.

Duran beating Barkley by fighting the perfect fight, the very best he could do at that point in his career utilizing every single piece of his craft, every trick he knew, against a Barkley that imo fought one of the best fights of his career. Hell, he even floored him. Duran went to a dark place that evening. I don't think any of us realize how much pain he soaked up or how much mental strength it took to keep fighting on. It sometimes looked to be desperation, especially when Barkley manhandled him to the ropes and Duran didn't have enough strength to push back, and instead had to rally and slip all the way back to the center.

Jones vs Ruiz was a good win and a novelty. Duran vs Barkley was magical. It showed me how skill and mental prowess can trump sheer unsurmountable physical disadvantages.

[Bokaj]

It isn't the same for me because of various things that defy statistics (though statistics favor DuranvsBarkley as well), namely, Duran fought inside with Barkley, took the best shots the man had to offer, survived an entire round while hurt against a brutal middleweight puncher, didn't have any advantages coming in (slight advantage in handspeed while giving up huge in height, reach, build and punch vs Roy Jones' always present athleticism).

Many could envision Roy Jones beating Ruiz the way he did -- using reflexes and speed of foot and hand to grind out a decision.

Duran beating Barkley by fighting the perfect fight, the very best he could do at that point in his career utilizing every single piece of his craft, every trick he knew, against a Barkley that imo fought one of the best fights of his career. Hell, he even floored him. Duran went to a dark place that evening. I don't think any of us realize how much pain he soaked up or how much mental strength it took to keep fighting on. It sometimes looked to be desperation, especially when Barkley manhandled him to the ropes and Duran didn't have enough strength to push back, and instead had to rally and slip all the way back to the center.

Jones vs Ruiz was a good win and a novelty. Duran vs Barkley was magical. It showed me how skill and mental prowess can trump sheer unsurmountable physical disadvantages.

Well put.

[DINAMITA]

It isn't the same for me because of various things that defy statistics (though statistics favor DuranvsBarkley as well), namely, Duran fought inside with Barkley, took the best shots the man had to offer, survived an entire round while hurt against a brutal middleweight puncher, didn't have any advantages coming in (slight advantage in handspeed while giving up huge in height, reach, build and punch vs Roy Jones' always present athleticism).

Many could envision Roy Jones beating Ruiz the way he did -- using reflexes and speed of foot and hand to grind out a decision.

Duran beating Barkley by fighting the perfect fight, the very best he could do at that point in his career utilizing every single piece of his craft, every trick he knew, against a Barkley that imo fought one of the best fights of his career. Hell, he even floored him. Duran went to a dark place that evening. I don't think any of us realize how much pain he soaked up or how much mental strength it took to keep fighting on. It sometimes looked to be desperation, especially when Barkley manhandled him to the ropes and Duran didn't have enough strength to push back, and instead had to rally and slip all the way back to the center.

Jones vs Ruiz was a good win and a novelty. Duran vs Barkley was magical. It showed me how skill and mental prowess can trump sheer unsurmountable physical disadvantages.

I wish I had wrote this. Hits the nail right on the head. :happy

[GPater11093]

i remmber RJJ was touted to face Mike Tyson after Ruiz if he had beat Tyson would this have surpasses Duran Barkly

[DINAMITA]

i remmber RJJ was touted to face Mike Tyson after Ruiz if he had beat Tyson would this have surpasses Duran Barkly

Definitely not IMO. Tyson was a corpse after Lewis had swatted him aside like a flea.

[GPater11093]

Definitely not IMO. Tyson was a corpse after Lewis had swatted him aside like a flea.

yes bt it woul be a better achievement than Ruiz IMO as Tyson was a feared man

[DINAMITA]

yes bt it woul be a better achievement than Ruiz IMO as Tyson was a feared man

He wasn't very feared by '03 IMO. He was just a name. Same as Chavez was when Tszyu beat him, and Duran was when Joppy beat him, and Leonard was when Camacho beat him, and Ali was when Holmes beat him, and on and on and on....

None of those are great wins though.

[GPater11093]

ok, got you i suppose the fight wouldnt mean much but tyson would still have the big punch and alot of weight on RJJ and Tyson is more well known than Ruiz so theyr would have been more coverage (not taht has to do with the win)

[DINAMITA]

ok, got you i suppose the fight wouldnt mean much but tyson would still have the big punch and alot of weight on RJJ and Tyson is more well known than Ruiz so theyr would have been more coverage (not taht has to do with the win)

Yes, that is all true.