Sugar Ray Robinson vs. Marvin Hagler, who wins this fight at 160?

[Canibus81]

The Robinson from the st. valentines massacre fight with lamotta vs. The Hagler from the 2nd vito Antofermo fight, who wins?

[the cobra]

Robinson for me

[leverage]

Robinson wins. Haglers a great fighter, but robby's greater. great, close fight though.

[turpinr]

a prime hagler would beat a prime 150lb robinson.
a 160lb ezzard charles would also beat robinson.
robinson is the best fighter ever but not at middle

[laxpdx]

I don't think one fight would settle this one. It's a case of the best MW ever vs. the best ever, period. I've got to give Hagler the edge, as he is the natural MW. But it's a slight edge. I think it's just as likely that Robbo, at the top of his game, can pull out the upset. Hagler would win more often than not, but either way, it comes down to a hard fought decision. The viewers definitely get their money's worth.

[JohnThomas1]

Robinson via decision.

[GPater11093]

i actually like Hagler in this one as the old adage goes

'a good big man beats a good little man'

[turpinr]

i actually like Hagler in this one as the old adage goes

'a good big man beats a good little man'

a good ,big ,nasty,frightening, concrete chinned hard as nails git is even better

[GPater11093]

best desricption of hagler ever Turpinr

[turpinr]

yeah i'm really hugh Mcilvanney

[booradley]

Fight of the decade in ANY decade.

[Shake]

I lean Hagler here, primarily because part of SRR's ability as a puncher and finisher is nulled because of Hagler's chin.

Decision could go either way, but SRR would have to fight significantly better to overcome his disadvantages in strength and durability. Against a peak Hagler, I have to go with the more proven at the weight. By close UD.

[Stonehands89]

Hagler would have a real problem with peak MW Robinson, who was Monroe times Leonard squared. He wouldn't beat Robinson before 1980 or after 1982 in my opinion. However, take any MW Robinson and throw him in with 1980-1982 Hagler, and my money's on the black guy --I mean the bald guy.

Robinson hit hard enough to command respect from anyone -including Hagler who had a chin like a curbstone. He had skill and athleticism, experience and instincts. His mistake would be the same that he committed against Fullmer and Basilio: He'd engaged Hagler too much. Hagler was stronger than both in my opinion. There aren't many MWs who I see as superior to him in terms of that physical presence... arguably Dick Tiger, maybe Roldan. Not many others. Hagler was also superior to both Fullmer and Basilio as a boxer. He was, at his best, a boxer-puncher.

Hagler, who I would argue peaked earlier than most believe, was also complex. Complex fighters have an innate ability to give fits to instinctive savants and technicians. Savants (like Jones) and technicians (like Duran that night) rely on probability. They read their man and then react via a textbook or an innovation... but they react to an expected set of stimuli. Hagler could switch positions in the middle of a combination and did so smoothly. Complicated stuff. He was a complicated boxer-puncher who applied physical and psychological pressure.

Add to that his LaMotta strength, better power, longer reach, and comparable fundamentals, and Robinson loses by a couple of points over 15.

[GPater11093]

Hagler would have a real problem with peak MW Robinson, who was Monroe times Leonard squared. He wouldn't beat Robinson before 1980 or after 1982 in my opinion. However, take any MW Robinson and throw him in with 1980-1982 Hagler, and my money's on the black guy --I mean the bald guy.

Robinson hit hard enough to command respect from anyone -including Hagler who had a chin like a curbstone. He had skill and athleticism, experience and instincts. His mistake would be the same that he committed against Fullmer and Basilio: He'd engaged Hagler too much. Hagler was stronger than both in my opinion. There aren't many MWs who I see as superior to him in terms of that physical presence... arguably Dick Tiger, maybe Roldan. Not many others. Hagler was also superior to both Fullmer and Basilio as a boxer. He was, at his best, a boxer-puncher.

Hagler, who I would argue peaked earlier than most believe, was also complex. Complex fighters have an innate ability to give fits to instinctive savants and technicians. Savants (like Jones) and technicians (like Duran that night) rely on probability. They read their man and then react via a textbook or an innovation... but they react to an expected set of stimuli. Hagler could switch positions in the middle of a combination and did so smoothly. Complicated stuff. He was a complicated boxer-puncher who applied physical and psychological pressure.

Add to that his LaMotta strength, better power, longer reach, and comparable fundamentals, and Robinson loses by a couple of points over 15.

summed it up perfect execpt from the fact taht a prime hagler took away an opponents jab by completly shutting out and hardly getting hit with it

[MrMarvel]

The Robinson from the st. valentines massacre fight with lamotta vs. The Hagler from the 2nd vito Antofermo fight, who wins?

Pick 'em.

[OBCboxer]

I am going with Robinson UD.

[dpw417]

Five reasons Sugar Ray wins...

1) "His left is dead...the hand he relies most on is the right hand."
-Roberto Duran

Duran said this of coarse, after stubbornly going fifteen rounds with Hagler. Looking stylistically at a match between Robinson and Hagler, you look at what each has in the way of skills and ability. There is no denying that Hagler is one of the great middleweights, ther is also no denying that his right hand is by far his most effective hand...The left?...Well, you decide. How about Sugar Ray? Very proficient at any punch in the book, but his best punch is the left hook. In terms of offensive variation, Ray has a decided edge IMO.

2) Positioning.

Hagler looked tremendous against Antufermo II, Scypion, Obel, and Sibson (orthodox fighters). But not so great against Duran...Why? Positioning! Hagler does something different from most southpaws, he was trained to move to his left, instead of what a southpaw usually does...which is move to the right (to set up a straight left hand). Watch the fight with Sibson, Hagler will move to the left, get set, then fire off double and triple right jabs. By moving to his left, Hagler is putting himself in position for his right jab. Sibson followed Hagler around, and he took a beating for it.
Duran had a much better "boxing" brain than any of Hagler's prior opponents...and he really messed up Hagler's timing. Where Hagler was used to getting the position he favored, he was up against someone with a much higher boxing accumen this time around. What Duran did was, he moved WITH Hagler when he moved to his left, staying straight on with him...When Hagler didn't like what he saw, and moved back to his right, that opened him up for Duran's counter right hand...Because it gave him the avenue past Hagler's right jab.(Allowing him to slip it easier) Duran didn't 'cooperate' with Marvin and he didn't like it one bit.. IMO anything Roberto Duran can do at middleweight, Ray Robinson can do much better.

3) Ready...Get set... Go?
Angelo Dundee recognized this trait of Hagler's, as he moves to the left, he will set himself and take a step before firing the right jab...ALWAYS! Dundee said something like,"Before he takes that step either move, or hit the sucka"

4) Cover up.

Roy Jones noticed this about Hagler, when an opponent attacks, Hagler will cover completely up, and consquently will not be able to punch or counter punch until he sets up again. Robinson is always in position to punch or counter punch.
Big difference.

5) Tactics.

With the aforementioned tendencies and traits, I think Marvin is going to be a step behind throughout the fight. Robinson will move and attack primarlily towards Hagler's right with a consistant jab and hard left hooks. Robinson has the ability to transition and punch with power and accuracy without any set patterns. Hagler will experience difficulty getting set, to step into the strong right jab like he normally does, as a result, his strongest punch will have to be shortened while trying to keep up with a quicker opponent...Ray will also be attacking Hagler's right side, and forcing Marvin to defend himself with his main offensive weapon, the right hand.
Hagler could possibily attack Robinson like he did Thomas Hearns, but realistically, I think that would be a terrible mistake. IMO robinson would not fully engage him like Hearns did, and would score very hard counters and move away. Hagler's energy expenditure would be tremendous and would leave him open to a terrific amount of punishment against one of, if not the best combination puncher in the history of the sport....Very risky.
One more thing...Hagler will have to be certain not to have Robinson slip his jab on the left side, Duran countered him with single right hands, Robinson will do so with hard combinations.

For the above reasons.
Sugar Ray by clear UD.

[JohnThomas1]

Fascinating insights mate, and very in depth.

[dpw417]

Thanks JT. Appreciate that.

[sam1222]

i'll go with hagler on this one. the valentines day fight with lamotta was certainly a massacre, but he still never put jake down and hagler definately aint just gonna lay on the ropes and let robinson punch him. would be a good fight but i doubt it would be close. hagler by wide UD.

[he grant]

Exceptional fight but I like Ray by decision .. Hagler would have trouble with the speed and movement although I would not bet it ... a nasty match up ...

[brando18b4h]

SRR win UD

[Canibus81]

bump

[kmac]

hagler wins this imo. robinson overrated at 160. if turpin gave him fits, hagler would as well.

[itrymariti]

I reckon Robinson would punch the shit out of him to be honest. Not that it wouldn't be a great, competitive fight at the same time.

[GPater11093]

a prime hagler would beat a prime 150lb robinson.
a 160lb ezzard charles would also beat robinson.
robinson is the best fighter ever but not at middle

Hagler would have a real problem with peak MW Robinson, who was Monroe times Leonard squared. He wouldn't beat Robinson before 1980 or after 1982 in my opinion. However, take any MW Robinson and throw him in with 1980-1982 Hagler, and my money's on the black guy --I mean the bald guy.

Robinson hit hard enough to command respect from anyone -including Hagler who had a chin like a curbstone. He had skill and athleticism, experience and instincts. His mistake would be the same that he committed against Fullmer and Basilio: He'd engaged Hagler too much. Hagler was stronger than both in my opinion. There aren't many MWs who I see as superior to him in terms of that physical presence... arguably Dick Tiger, maybe Roldan. Not many others. Hagler was also superior to both Fullmer and Basilio as a boxer. He was, at his best, a boxer-puncher.

Hagler, who I would argue peaked earlier than most believe, was also complex. Complex fighters have an innate ability to give fits to instinctive savants and technicians. Savants (like Jones) and technicians (like Duran that night) rely on probability. They read their man and then react via a textbook or an innovation... but they react to an expected set of stimuli. Hagler could switch positions in the middle of a combination and did so smoothly. Complicated stuff. He was a complicated boxer-puncher who applied physical and psychological pressure.

Add to that his LaMotta strength, better power, longer reach, and comparable fundamentals, and Robinson loses by a couple of points over 15.

Five reasons Sugar Ray wins...

1) "His left is dead...the hand he relies most on is the right hand."
-Roberto Duran

Duran said this of coarse, after stubbornly going fifteen rounds with Hagler. Looking stylistically at a match between Robinson and Hagler, you look at what each has in the way of skills and ability. There is no denying that Hagler is one of the great middleweights, ther is also no denying that his right hand is by far his most effective hand...The left?...Well, you decide. How about Sugar Ray? Very proficient at any punch in the book, but his best punch is the left hook. In terms of offensive variation, Ray has a decided edge IMO.

2) Positioning.

Hagler looked tremendous against Antufermo II, Scypion, Obel, and Sibson (orthodox fighters). But not so great against Duran...Why? Positioning! Hagler does something different from most southpaws, he was trained to move to his left, instead of what a southpaw usually does...which is move to the right (to set up a straight left hand). Watch the fight with Sibson, Hagler will move to the left, get set, then fire off double and triple right jabs. By moving to his left, Hagler is putting himself in position for his right jab. Sibson followed Hagler around, and he took a beating for it.
Duran had a much better "boxing" brain than any of Hagler's prior opponents...and he really messed up Hagler's timing. Where Hagler was used to getting the position he favored, he was up against someone with a much higher boxing accumen this time around. What Duran did was, he moved WITH Hagler when he moved to his left, staying straight on with him...When Hagler didn't like what he saw, and moved back to his right, that opened him up for Duran's counter right hand...Because it gave him the avenue past Hagler's right jab.(Allowing him to slip it easier) Duran didn't 'cooperate' with Marvin and he didn't like it one bit.. IMO anything Roberto Duran can do at middleweight, Ray Robinson can do much better.

3) Ready...Get set... Go?
Angelo Dundee recognized this trait of Hagler's, as he moves to the left, he will set himself and take a step before firing the right jab...ALWAYS! Dundee said something like,"Before he takes that step either move, or hit the sucka"

4) Cover up.

Roy Jones noticed this about Hagler, when an opponent attacks, Hagler will cover completely up, and consquently will not be able to punch or counter punch until he sets up again. Robinson is always in position to punch or counter punch.
Big difference.

5) Tactics.

With the aforementioned tendencies and traits, I think Marvin is going to be a step behind throughout the fight. Robinson will move and attack primarlily towards Hagler's right with a consistant jab and hard left hooks. Robinson has the ability to transition and punch with power and accuracy without any set patterns. Hagler will experience difficulty getting set, to step into the strong right jab like he normally does, as a result, his strongest punch will have to be shortened while trying to keep up with a quicker opponent...Ray will also be attacking Hagler's right side, and forcing Marvin to defend himself with his main offensive weapon, the right hand.
Hagler could possibily attack Robinson like he did Thomas Hearns, but realistically, I think that would be a terrible mistake. IMO robinson would not fully engage him like Hearns did, and would score very hard counters and move away. Hagler's energy expenditure would be tremendous and would leave him open to a terrific amount of punishment against one of, if not the best combination puncher in the history of the sport....Very risky.
One more thing...Hagler will have to be certain not to have Robinson slip his jab on the left side, Duran countered him with single right hands, Robinson will do so with hard combinations.

For the above reasons.
Sugar Ray by clear UD.

Very good post. Ignore my previous posts in here. I think Ray Robinson takes it. I see him showcasing some 'backfoot punching' and feinting to muck Hagler right up.

[MrPR]

Fight of the decade in ANY decade.
Yes a dream match , For some reason i see a slugfest between these 2 . Ima have to go with Hagler by decision .

[Flo_Raiden]

I always thought that SRR gets a bit overrated at 160. Certainly GOAT, no doubt, but I don't think he could beat the best middleweights such as Hagler or Monzon.

[Nemesis]

Whatever happened JohnThomas?

[burt bienstock]

Hagler would have a real problem with peak MW Robinson, who was Monroe times Leonard squared. He wouldn't beat Robinson before 1980 or after 1982 in my opinion. However, take any MW Robinson and throw him in with 1980-1982 Hagler, and my money's on the black guy --I mean the bald guy.

Robinson hit hard enough to command respect from anyone -including Hagler who had a chin like a curbstone. He had skill and athleticism, experience and instincts. His mistake would be the same that he committed against Fullmer and Basilio: He'd engaged Hagler too much. Hagler was stronger than both in my opinion. There aren't many MWs who I see as superior to him in terms of that physical presence... arguably Dick Tiger, maybe Roldan. Not many others. Hagler was also superior to both Fullmer and Basilio as a boxer. He was, at his best, a boxer-puncher.

Hagler, who I would argue peaked earlier than most believe, was also complex. Complex fighters have an innate ability to give fits to instinctive savants and technicians. Savants (like Jones) and technicians (like Duran that night) rely on probability. They read their man and then react via a textbook or an innovation... but they react to an expected set of stimuli. Hagler could switch positions in the middle of a combination and did so smoothly. Complicated stuff. He was a complicated boxer-puncher who applied physical and psychological pressure.

Add to that his LaMotta strength, better power, longer reach, and comparable fundamentals, and Robinson loses by a couple of points over 15.
Well said S, but the Robinson of the last LaMotta fight, I would say beats a Marvin Hagler...This Robinson at 30 years of age in 1951, would have CERTAINLY destroyed a Vito Antuofermo by stoppage.And yet Hagler was held to a draw in their first fight. Of course he stopped vito on cuts in their second fight. Yes the southpaw Hagler was an all-time great middleweight.
No doubt about that. But I think that the Robinson of the last LaMotta slaughter,had the cutting power and explosive flurries that Marvin Hagler
never experienced before. I also think contrary to public opinion that the LaMotta of the Cerdan fight, then at his best,also eakes out a decision over Hagler...Two tough hombres were Jake and Marvin...Cheers S...

[Valane]

Robinson.

I just see Robinson as having the explosiveness, athletacism and technical ability to fight his fight against Hagler.

[dpw417]

Very good post. Ignore my previous posts in here. I think Ray Robinson takes it. I see him showcasing some 'backfoot punching' and feinting to muck Hagler right up.
:good Cheers, GP...But I would add that Hagler is a serious threat to ANYBODY at 160. Very determined fighter and a great one.

[bigstinkybug]

Robinson every day

[MAG1965]

close fight. SD win for SRR.

[Hank]

Robinson. Look at all his fights, Hagler can't match up.

[steve w]

The "'Marvellous One"' would not agree, but if he lost to Leonard he would be embarrased by the one and only "'Sugar''.

[turpinr]

hagler

[RockyJim]

GREAT PPV...SRR was at his best at Welterweight...Hagler was a great Middleweight...
Marvin by dec. in a close fight...

[SLAKKA]

His talent had peaked between 1947 and 1950, before the era of TV boxing and before it saddened me to watch him years later on the screen struggling with ...
books.google.com/books?isbn=1592284795...
[Only registered and activated users can see links]=onepage&q=%22His%20talent%20had%20peaked%20between%201947%22&f=false

From the pen of the great W.C. Heinz.
I see SRR letting the “I can only fight one way Hagler” walk into hell all nite long.
It would resemble SRLs effort only better.
Very bull vs matador.