Jim Jeffries book/ A Man Among Men

[pugilist_boyd]

Has anyone read this book? I heard it was really good. Does anyone have/and want to sell it? I would like to get it cheap so I can read it. Ive read on Tunney, Dempsey and others and would like to read on Jeffries to compare.

[apollack]

Wait for mine to come out: In the Ring With James J. Jeffries. It will be much more thorough and detailed. It will come out in '09. Nicholson was less than 200 pages. Mine will be over triple that. But if you want the quick and easy version, then Nicholson's book will do.

[guilalah]

I've read Nicholson's book, it was pretty good, except I wish it's citations would have been more explicit.

For example, there's an assertion that, in Jeffries-Fitzsimmons II, there was something odd about the joists under the ring, with the consequence that if Jeffries leaped out of his crouch, he'd end up bouncing in the air; and, thus, he was unexpectedly compeled to fight a stand up fight, perhaps accounting for why he was such an easy mark, that night, for Fitzsimmons.
That's a really interesting story, that may significantly affect our view of Jeffries defensive abilities -- for Fitz II is often cited by Jeffries detractors. Maybe some sort of B.S. was being perpetrated on Jeff'?
The problem is, Nicholson doesn't cite his source for the story. It might be something that was cooborated by several relatively impartial observers on the night of the fight, or it might be a story Jeffries told twenty years later.

Nicholson's is still, none the less, a pretty good book. I am dead certain that Pollack's book is going to be a vastly more detailed look at Jeffries as a boxer. If you're particularly interested in Jeffries, and have the $, there's nothing wrong with getting both. If your more narrowly focused on getting to learn about the great heavyweights, as boxers, I'm sure Pollack is finishing up the book you want.

[mcvey]

I've read Nicholson's book, it was pretty good, except I wish it's citations would have been more explicit.

For example, there's an assertion that, in Jeffries-Fitzsimmons II, there was something odd about the joists under the ring, with the consequence that if Jeffries leaped out of his crouch, he'd end up bouncing in the air; and, thus, he was unexpectedly compeled to fight a stand up fight, perhaps accounting for why he was such an easy mark, that night, for Fitzsimmons.
That's a really interesting story, that may significantly affect our view of Jeffries defensive abilities -- for Fitz II is often cited by Jeffries detractors. Maybe some sort of B.S. was being perpetrated on Jeff'?
The problem is, Nicholson doesn't cite his source for the story. It might be something that was cooborated by several relatively impartial observers on the night of the fight, or it might be a story Jeffries told twenty years later.

Nicholson's is still, none the less, a pretty good book. I am dead certain that Pollack's book is going to be a vastly more detailed look at Jeffries as a boxer. If you're particularly interested in Jeffries, and have the $, there's nothing wrong with getting both. If your more narrowly focused on getting to learn about the great heavyweights, as boxers, I'm sure Pollack is finishing up the book you want.

I'm certainly no expert on Jeffries ,and frequently seem to be critisizing him, here I go again ,given his track record against Black Challengers perhaps the book should have been called ."Jim Jeffries A White Man Among White Men".

[UpWithEvil]

I'm certainly no expert on Jeffries ,and frequently seem to be critisizing him, here I go again ,given his track record against Black Challengers perhaps the book should have been called ."Jim Jeffries A White Man Among White Men".

Hank Griffin has been posthumously declared white? Even the Mormon Church wouldn't attempt such a conversion.

[janitor]

I'm certainly no expert on Jeffries ,and frequently seem to be critisizing him, here I go again ,given his track record against Black Challengers perhaps the book should have been called ."Jim Jeffries A White Man Among White Men".

I have to say that of all the pre colour bar champions Jeffries was one of the more willing to meet black challengers.

[mcvey]

Hank Griffin has been posthumously declared white? Even the Mormon Church wouldn't attempt such a conversion.

In answer to your post and Janitor's I did say challengers ;as in challengers to his title?
Not a couple of token blacks such as Bob Armstrong and Griffin ,Jeffries met on his way up.

[janitor]

In answer to your post and Janitor's I did say challengers ;as in challengers to his title?
Not a couple of token blacks such as Bob Armstrong and Griffin ,Jeffries met on his way up.

How many viable black title challengers were there in Jeffries reign?

Johnson obviously (who he eventualy fought under more disadvantageous circumstances)

Denver Ed Martin (not everybody agrees with me here)

Thats about it.

Also I happen to think that Armstrong and Griffin were prety stiff tests at that point in Jeffries career.

[he grant]

Read it, was happy someone made the effort to cover Jefferies and thought it was decent but nothing special ... standard biostuff ... with all respect to that author's efforts, I remain highly excited about Adam's book ...

[mcvey]

How many viable black title challengers were there in Jeffries reign?

Johnson obviously (who he eventualy fought under more disadvantageous circumstances)

Denver Ed Martin (not everybody agrees with me here)

Thats about it.

Also I happen to think that Armstrong and Griffin were prety stiff tests at that point in Jeffries career. But not challengers for his title.
You answered your own question,with the appendage ,"obviously".

[janitor]

But not challengers for his title.
You answered your own question,with the appendage ,"obviously".

Lets be honest here.

Between Peter Jacksons prime and Jack Johnsons was there any black heavyweight in Jeffries class?

I think he was much more tested against the black talent than Sullivan or Dempsey.

[mcvey]

Lets be honest here.

Between Peter Jacksons prime and Jack Johnsons was there any black heavyweight in Jeffries class?

I think he was much more tested against the black talent than Sullivan or Dempsey.
I made a flippant remark about the biography on Jeffries,and its title.
Which I thought was mildly amusing, its come back to bite me in the arse now.Well, OK Jeffries, DID NOT FACE HIS STANDOUT CHALLENGER JACK JOHNSON WHO WAS BLACK, IN FACT HE MAY HAVE RETIRED TO AVOID DOING SO . No comparisons with Suillivan ,Dempsey ,Tunney etc ,are asked for ,as far as I know they did not have biographies out entitled A Man Among Men, must be a slow night.

[janitor]

I made a flippant remark about the biography on Jeffries,and its title.
Which I thought was mildly amusing, its come back to bite me in the arse now.Well, OK Jeffries, DID NOT FACE HIS STANDOUT CHALLENGER JACK JOHNSON WHO WAS BLACK, IN FACT HE MAY HAVE RETIRED TO AVOID DOING SO . No comparisons with Suillivan ,Dempsey ,Tunney etc ,are asked for ,as far as I know they did not have biographies out entitled A Man Among Men, must be a slow night.

OK I will shut up.

[mcvey]

OK I will shut up.

No offence meant J.My fault for trying to be a smartarse.:lol:

[aappty]

ok, i'm a newb so in the interests of starting out nice and gentle i'm going to launch straight into a good old fashioned race debate.

imo it is most unfair to the legacy of one of the greatest fighters ever, jeffries, to hang him because he drew the color line as champion.

yes, with the hindsight of 100 years, equality of race (at least cosmetically) and the comfort of cyber space, we can all say that was very wrong and a black mark on our culture's history. hell yeah, agreement all round.:deal

however, when people mention this they invariably fail to mention that the great black hero, jack johnson also drew the color line as champion.

yes, johnson gets every excuse in the book ie no money in it, promoters wouldn't have a bar of it, he fought em when he was up and coming, etc etc BULL SHIT!

every single excuse johnson gets applies to jeffries too and, if anyone had a more ethical reason to fight blacks, it was jack. afterall he was given a chance wasn't he. mcvey, jeanette, langford spent their entire respective peaks begging jack to give them a chance and he refused.

oh yes, further down the track when jack was strapped for cash he gave the nod to jim johnson...come on, with all due respect to jim he didn't hold a candle to aformentioned 3.

jeff and jack both fought blacks on their way up.

jeff and jack both drew the color line when they became champions.

jeff and jack are 2 of the greatest champions of all time and certainly dominant champions during their peaks, albeit with completely different styles.

facts minus the excuses.

[mcvey]

ok, i'm a newb so in the interests of starting out nice and gentle i'm going to launch straight into a good old fashioned race debate.

imo it is most unfair to the legacy of one of the greatest fighters ever, jeffries, to hang him because he drew the color line as champion.

yes, with the hindsight of 100 years, equality of race (at least cosmetically) and the comfort of cyber space, we can all say that was very wrong and a black mark on our culture's history. hell yeah, agreement all round.:deal

however, when people mention this they invariably fail to mention that the great black hero, jack johnson also drew the color line as champion.

yes, johnson gets every excuse in the book ie no money in it, promoters wouldn't have a bar of it, he fought em when he was up and coming, etc etc BULL SHIT!

every single excuse johnson gets applies to jeffries too and, if anyone had a more ethical reason to fight blacks, it was jack. afterall he was given a chance wasn't he. mcvey, jeanette, langford spent their entire respective peaks begging jack to give them a chance and he refused.

oh yes, further down the track when jack was strapped for cash he gave the nod to jim johnson...come on, with all due respect to jim he didn't hold a candle to aformentioned 3.

jeff and jack both fought blacks on their way up.

jeff and jack both drew the color line when they became champions.

jeff and jack are 2 of the greatest champions of all time and certainly dominant champions during their peaks, albeit with completely different styles.

facts minus the excuses.

Sorry but there is CRUCIAL DIFFERENCE ,if Johnson accepted the challenge of a black fighter ,it would mean that whoever won, the Champion would STILL be Black,something that White America did NOT want.Jefffries made a public statement ,reprinted many times that he would Not take a chance on defending against a black challenger,in case he lost the title.

[Mendoza]

Sorry but there is CRUCIAL DIFFERENCE ,if Johnson accepted the challenge of a black fighter ,it would mean that whoever won, the Champion would STILL be Black,something that White America did NOT want.Jefffries made a public statement ,reprinted many times that he would Not take a chance on defending against a black challenger,in case he lost the title.

Are you aware that Jack Johnson did in fact defend his title once vs a black man? It happened in the Jack Johnson vs Jim Battling Johnson title fight. You are wrong again McVey.

Johnson had various offers to fight black contenders, and could make ANY fight he wanted to, maybe not in all locations of the world but the matches could have been made. It did not matter what white America wanted, Jack Johnson picked his own opponents. It the fight was not suitable in the USA, he fought in another nation.

As for Jeffries he did share the ring as champion in a 4 round exhibition match with black contender Hank Griffin, and returned as the lineal champion in a match vs Johnson. In the eyes of many, since Jeffries retired un-beaten as champion, he still was the champion. You could argue that Jeffries defended his lineal title vs Johnson.

Had Johnson defeated Hart, the money might have changed Jeffries mind. We will never know. Fighters often say one thing, then change their mind when the money is too great to say no. Johnson failed to impress vs Hart. The public had little interest to see Hart vs Jeffires, so Jeffries retired. There was little money to be made for him in boxing. When there was a hume amount money to be made, Jeffries returned.

If Lennox Lewis came out of retirement today, he would still be the lineal champion.

[mcvey]

Are you aware that Jack Johnson did in fact defend his title once vs a black man? It happened in the Jack Johnson vs Jim Battling Johnson title fight. You are wrong again McVey.

Johnson had various offers to fight black contenders, and could make ANY fight he wanted to, maybe not in all locations of the world but the matches could have been made. It did not matter what white America wanted, Jack Johnson picked his own opponents. It the fight was not suitable in the USA, he fought in another nation.

As for Jeffries he did share the ring as champion in a 4 round exhibition match with black contender Hank Griffin, and returned as the lineal champion in a match vs Johnson. In the eyes of many, since Jeffries retired un-beaten as champion, he still was the champion. You could argue that Jeffries defended his lineal title vs Johnson.

Had Johnson defeated Hart, the money might have changed Jeffries mind. We will never know. Fighters often say one thing, then change their mind when the money is too great to say no. Johnson failed to impress vs Hart. The public had little interest to see Hart vs Jeffires, so Jeffries retired. There was little money to be made for him in boxing. When there was a hume amount money to be made, Jeffries returned.

If Lennox Lewis came out of retirement today, he would still be the lineal champion.
Go away you silly ***t.

[Dempsey1238]

I dont think if Lewis came out of retirement, he would be the lineal champ.

Just like Robinson comeing out of retirement and loseing to Tiger Jones. Did beating Robinson make Jones the champion?? And the likes of Fullmer, Carman, and others non champs?

[Rock0052]

ok, i'm a newb so in the interests of starting out nice and gentle i'm going to launch straight into a good old fashioned race debate.

imo it is most unfair to the legacy of one of the greatest fighters ever, jeffries, to hang him because he drew the color line as champion.

yes, with the hindsight of 100 years, equality of race (at least cosmetically) and the comfort of cyber space, we can all say that was very wrong and a black mark on our culture's history. hell yeah, agreement all round.:deal

however, when people mention this they invariably fail to mention that the great black hero, jack johnson also drew the color line as champion.

yes, johnson gets every excuse in the book ie no money in it, promoters wouldn't have a bar of it, he fought em when he was up and coming, etc etc BULL SHIT!

every single excuse johnson gets applies to jeffries too and, if anyone had a more ethical reason to fight blacks, it was jack. afterall he was given a chance wasn't he. mcvey, jeanette, langford spent their entire respective peaks begging jack to give them a chance and he refused.

oh yes, further down the track when jack was strapped for cash he gave the nod to jim johnson...come on, with all due respect to jim he didn't hold a candle to aformentioned 3.

jeff and jack both fought blacks on their way up.

jeff and jack both drew the color line when they became champions.

jeff and jack are 2 of the greatest champions of all time and certainly dominant champions during their peaks, albeit with completely different styles.

facts minus the excuses.

You need to post more. :thumbsup