Did Vitali retire to avoid Rahman

[lefthook31]

Just seems Vitali was really weird about fighting Rahman. He had three fights cancelled, acted all crazy trying to avoid him to fight Sanders and Williams, and then when it came down to it and he had no where to run, he retires???
Now that Rahman has been reduced to a club fighter, he decides to comeback???

Discuss...

[AJAX]

This subject has been worn out like Ruiz's welcome in the boxing world. of course he was afraid, he seen how Lewis laid him out with DK crown above his head and seen Maskaev sent him on Lampleys lap.Vitaly was trying to get fights with soft punchers like Lewis and Tyson at that time. Rachman reeks fear in all boxers.

[box03]

I heard he his knocked down by two different sparring partners dont know if it was because he knee gave out or not I guess thats a good reason to cancel a fight with rahman

[McGrain]

HIS p looks like a V

[lefthook31]

This subject has been worn out like Ruiz's welcome in the boxing world. of course he was afraid, he seen how Lewis laid him out with DK crown above his head and seen Maskaev sent him on Lampleys lap.Vitaly was trying to get fights with soft punchers like Lewis and Tyson at that time. Rachman reeks fear in all boxers.

Well Rahman laid lewis out, and I think Rahman got into Vitalis head. It was really strange the sequence of events leading up to his retirement, and now he is coming back to fight Mcline.

[AJAX]

yes, very stange indeed..........:patsch

[robert ungurean]

No way in hell did he retire to avoid that bum.

[El Bombasto]

uh, gee, no

[barneyrub]

The 5 minute staredown at the press conference freaked vitali out.

[Jose FM]

he was injured and didnt wanna further injure himself or get knocked out cause he couldnt fight.

[Carlos Primera]

hahah vitali would have laid out rahman in more brutal fashion than maskaev, lennox, tua etc.. did

[Suge Green]

Those of you who attempt to shoot this down always make the same fatal error...you consider your own opinion of Rahman to be the same as Vitali's perspective. Things were different then, and it's four fights that he backed out of, not three...we've all been through this before.

Though many consider it an inevitable fact that VITKLIT would destroy Rahman now (which by the way is not fact), that has absolutety nothing to do with Rahman's reputation and "aura" at the time...or his entry into the VITKLIT psyche on four different occasions. :smoke

Threads on this topic are always lopsided, in that the KLIT's are popular and Rahman is not...and that KLIT-ites use the "VITALI would knock him out" idea, as some kind of an attempt at making a point. I don't recall anyone ever asking if KLIT-ites are scared for Vitali facing Rahman, the issue is whether or not Vitali might have been afraid.
:patsch

[Shpion]

Just seems Vitali was really weird about fighting Rahman. He had three fights cancelled, acted all crazy trying to avoid him to fight Sanders and Williams, and then when it came down to it and he had no where to run, he retires???
Now that Rahman has been reduced to a club fighter, he decides to comeback???

Discuss...

Just watch Rahman vs. Taurus Sykes and it will give you the perfect answer.

[brooklyn1550]

No - definitely not

[geppy]

Maskaev knocked Rahman out, imagine if rather Vitali fought him. It would not be a pretty site.

[kirk]

Those of you who attempt to shoot this down always make the same fatal error...you consider your own opinion of Rahman to be the same as Vitali's perspective. Things were different then, and it's four fights that he backed out of, not three...we've all been through this before.

Though many consider it an inevitable fact that VITKLIT would destroy Rahman now (which by the way is not fact), that has absolutety nothing to do with Rahman's reputation and "aura" at the time...or his entry into the VITKLIT psyche on four different occasions. :smoke

Threads on this topic are always lopsided, in that the KLIT's are popular and Rahman is not...and that KLIT-ites use the "VITALI would knock him out" idea, as some kind of an attempt at making a point. I don't recall anyone ever asking if KLIT-ites are scared for Vitali facing Rahman, the issue is whether or not Vitali might have been afraid.
:patsch

The guy couldnt fight with his knee... period. When his knee started to give out during sparring, he chose to retire.

i dont see why or how anyone really comes to another conclusion.

[Heavyrighthand]

The guy couldnt fight with his knee... period. When his knee started to give out during sparring, he chose to retire.

i dont see why or how anyone really comes to another conclusion.

Right.

He had a bone spur removed which was pressing on a nerve, causing him pain in his leg, (and apparently also hindered his movement, as well), and once that was correctly and fully healed, and he was back to training for Rahman, then his knee tore, which required 6 months, minimum to heal before he could even start back training, all over again.

So, after this second setback, he then realized it was best for the sport to not hold up the title any longer, and did the professional thing, and stepped aside to allow others to fight for the title, losing his 8 million dollar payday, in the process.

Here's the bone spur details from an old article from ESB;

According to the latest news sources, WBC heavyweight champion Vitali Klitschko will be undergoing back surgery ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) on Wednesday, April 20th, to further postpone his previously delayed mandatory defense against heavyweight challenger Hasim Rahman. Klitschko was originally scheduled to fight Rahman on April 30th.. However, that fight was pushed back until July 23 when Klitschko suffered an upper thigh injury while jogging during training. Klitschko adviser, Shelly Finkel stated “The fight probably won't happen until September, but we won't know for sure until he comes out" of surgery, said Klitschko's adviser, Shelly Finkel. "There's some sort of bone spur pressing on a nerve in his back, which is why he's had a problem with his left leg."

[cuchulain]

He fought Lennox (A far superior fighter) not long before and he desperately wanted Lewis again.

He had hoped to fight Tyson ( and punished Williams severely for denying him the chance).

And some folks think he was afraid of Rahman ???

A fighter he and most observers (and probably Rahman) knew he could demolish (if he was healthy).

Foolish question.

[Napoleon]

He retired to avoid an 8 million dollar pay day.

No doubt. I heard these rumors that Vitali is scared of money, so he faked the knee injury and retired.:good

[Decker]

Just seems Vitali was really weird about fighting Rahman. He had three fights cancelled, acted all crazy trying to avoid him to fight Sanders and Williams, and then when it came down to it and he had no where to run, he retires???
Now that Rahman has been reduced to a club fighter, he decides to comeback???

Discuss... The short answer NO.

Did it ever occur to you that Vitaly was actally injured? If Oleg can stop Rahman twice, odds are very high that a healthy Vitali would destroy HR. Instead you peddle these conspiracy theories and the reading of Vitali's mind. :-( Only Vitaly haters keep bringing up this lame and :dead argment. Debating Lewis-Holy II is one thing, this is just silly.

[NBT]

Noone avoids Rahman, it's the opposite, people want to fight Rahman because he is a "name opponent" and easy to beat.

[Burundanga]

I doubt very seriously that VitKlit is/was afraid to fight anyone.

[Mr "T"]

I doubt very seriously that VitKlit is/was afraid to fight anyone.
He really wants to fight Peter after McCline. Rachman would have lasted 2 rounds,ala Kirk Johnson. Vit's no coward.:bbb

[RonnieHornschuh]

this is one of the most ridiculous discussions that's going on on esb. to sum it up: vitali wasn't afraid of lewis, who kfto rahman; not afraid of maskaev, who knocked rahman out twice; not afraid of kirk johnson, who almost killed maskaev, yet vitali stopped him in 2.

[He Hate Me]

I have a better question, Did Lewis retire to avoid Him.

[Heavyrighthand]

He really wants to fight Peter after McCline.


Yes, Vitali wants to show little brother how to stop Peter in his tracks.

I predict Vitali would be the first to stop Peter, and he'd do it by late TKO.

[DamonD]

I prefer to believe the injury problems were legit, and that Vitali had enough respect for Rahman not to come into a fight like that not at his best.

[cross_trainer]

Those of you who attempt to shoot this down always make the same fatal error...you consider your own opinion of Rahman to be the same as Vitali's perspective. Things were different then, and it's four fights that he backed out of, not three...we've all been through this before.

Though many consider it an inevitable fact that VITKLIT would destroy Rahman now (which by the way is not fact), that has absolutety nothing to do with Rahman's reputation and "aura" at the time...or his entry into the VITKLIT psyche on four different occasions. :smoke

Threads on this topic are always lopsided, in that the KLIT's are popular and Rahman is not...and that KLIT-ites use the "VITALI would knock him out" idea, as some kind of an attempt at making a point. I don't recall anyone ever asking if KLIT-ites are scared for Vitali facing Rahman, the issue is whether or not Vitali might have been afraid.
:patsch

That was considered unlikely even at the time. Rahman was hardly leaving a trail of broken bodies on his way to the top--he won an ugly fight with Barrett to win the crown.

As to whether Vitali was "afraid", you haven't provided evidence other than surgery-related cancellations and a vague claim of insight into his mind. The facts bear out that Vitali wasn't afraid--his opponent was not formidable, he had a long history of injuries, and he had legitimate surgeries to fix those injuries.

Now, you can speculate that the facts don't matter since it's only Vitali's inner thoughts that count. But if you do that, you're speculating without any evidence at all, since you--like everyone else here--cannot read Vitali's thoughts.

[EpsilonAxis]

IMO there's no doubt he retired due to injuries. They have plagued him for a long time, inevitably ruining the career of a guy many to this day might consider the best in the world.

If Vitali doesn't fight at 100%, i wouldnt want him to fight...it would be a shame if he lost again due to injury or had to back out of another fight.

[Grabonator]

Rahman knocked out Lewis with one punch, something Vitali couldnt do, so he has verry much respect of this man. So basically yes, Vitali avoided him.

[lefthook31]

That was considered unlikely even at the time. Rahman was hardly leaving a trail of broken bodies on his way to the top--he won an ugly fight with Barrett to win the crown.

As to whether Vitali was "afraid", you haven't provided evidence other than surgery-related cancellations and a vague claim of insight into his mind. The facts bear out that Vitali wasn't afraid--his opponent was not formidable, he had a long history of injuries, and he had legitimate surgeries to fix those injuries.

Now, you can speculate that the facts don't matter since it's only Vitali's inner thoughts that count. But if you do that, you're speculating without any evidence at all, since you--like everyone else here--cannot read Vitali's thoughts.

Vitali wasnt necessarily facing murders row either. When he stepped up in competition he basically showed his punching power isnt that great, and his fight with Corrie Sanders was a disgusting sloppy show of boxing ability. Rahman was one of the biggest punchers he would have faced showing good ability with his jab and right hand, something Vitali would have had a lot of trouble with.
Yes maybe he was injured during the fourth cancellation for real, but the other times, it was blatant stalling and ducking. You can look back now and say Rahman would have done this or that, but at that time, he was coming off a two fight series with Lewis, and on a pretty good win streak to put himself back into the #1 position for a title shot.

[Zakman]

Rahman is, was and always has been a mediocre fighter - a one-hit wonder with a glass jaw, who Vitali would have easily starched had the fought. The idea that he retired to "avoid" the china-chinned Rahman is silly.

[lefthook31]

Rahman is, was and always has been a mediocre fighter - a one-hit wonder with a glass jaw, who Vitali would have easily starched had the fought. The idea that he retired to "avoid" the china-chinned Rahman is silly.
Pure speculation. Rahman faced argueably the biggest puncher in the sport, Tua and outboxed him. Yes he would mix it up at times and get caught, but he showed he certainly could hang in there with the likes of Vitali Klitschko, who really has lost every meaningful fight hes been in. I mean lets face it, his record is a bunch of crap. THe two fighters of any merit eventually stopped him due to injury or cuts. Part of the reason he was stopped by Lewis, is because he started to wane down the stretch.
What fighter facing the light hitting Chris Byrd and being ahead would quit like he did?? Do you think Rahman would have been able to press him enough to make a rough fight and possibly make him fold up like he has done in the past?? To say he is far superior than Rahman because of wins against the likes of Corrie Sanders, Kirk Johnson, Danny Williams, and Julius Francis is a complete joke. Fact is Rahman has fought far better competition than Klitschko and actually holds a win over Lewis by devastating knockout.
Yeah he was perceived by many as getting the best of Lewis, but reality is Lewis's fighting style THAT night, was the reason Klitschko was winning some rounds, but in the end, Lewis prevailed, and most certainly would have knocked out the fading Klitschko.

[Grabonator]

Pure speculation. Rahman faced argueably the biggest puncher in the sport, Tua and outboxed him. Yes he would mix it up at times and get caught, but he showed he certainly could hang in there with the likes of Vitali Klitschko, who really has lost every meaningful fight hes been in. I mean lets face it, his record is a bunch of crap. THe two fighters of any merit eventually stopped him due to injury or cuts. Part of the reason he was stopped by Lewis, is because he started to wane down the stretch.
What fighter facing the light hitting Chris Byrd and being ahead would quit like he did?? Do you think Rahman would have been able to press him enough to make a rough fight and possibly make him fold up like he has done in the past?? To say he is far superior than Rahman because of wins against the likes of Corrie Sanders, Kirk Johnson, Danny Williams, and Julius Francis is a complete joke. Fact is Rahman has fought far better competition than Klitschko and actually holds a win over Lewis by devastating knockout.
Yeah he was perceived by many as getting the best of Lewis, but reality is Lewis's fighting style THAT night, was the reason Klitschko was winning some rounds, but in the end, Lewis prevailed, and most certainly would have knocked out the fading Klitschko.

Good post, Rah,man really faced the better competition, i dont get it why everybody is so high about Vitali.

[Decker]

Pure speculation. Rahman faced argueably the biggest puncher in the sport, Tua and outboxed him. Yes he would mix it up at times and get caught, but he showed he certainly could hang in there with the likes of Vitali Klitschko, who really has lost every meaningful fight hes been in. I mean lets face it, his record is a bunch of crap.Lets face it, here's what HR accomplished after the only big win of his career. He went a "sparkling" 0-3-1 including being KTFO vs Lewis. He then fights a string of near nobodies and gets a title shot vs the so-so Monte Barrett - an awful excuse of a "fight", never mind a title fight. He then draws with JT, an overweight CWT; is stopped again by Oleg; and manages a UD over Sykes, who Peter blasted out in 2. I thought HR is a big puncher? :lol: See? This is easy.
Truly, there are few fighters who have based thier "greatness" from just one win. Lewis haters point to that loss as a big reason why LL isn't all that great. I think that's unfair as HR can bang, and anybody can get caught a few times in a long career.

THe two fighters of any merit eventually stopped him due to injury or cuts. Part of the reason he was stopped by Lewis, is because he started to wane down the stretch. Baloney. He sustained some bad cuts vs LL. That's why he lost. And he was still fighting well with those cuts.

What fighter facing the light hitting Chris Byrd and being ahead would quit like he did?? Why risk a career ending injury? Does anybody but a Vitali hater not think that he could defeat Byrd today like he was then?

Do you think Rahman would have been able to press him enough to make a rough fight and possibly make him fold up like he has done in the past?? The way Johnson tried to do? :rofl If the weak chinned HR pressed Vitali and got caught it would be a repeat of the Kirk fight.

To say he is far superior than Rahman because of wins against the likes of Corrie Sanders, Kirk Johnson, Danny Williams, and Julius Francis is a complete joke. Fact is Rahman has fought far better competition than Klitschko and actually holds a win over Lewis by devastating knockout. Like some here, I don't use wild exaggertaions and selective sampling to make my points. HR has displayed big punching ability as a HWT, he also has shown average stamina and chin. HR has fought more name fighters than Vitali, and except for that one shinning moment loses or draws most of the time he has stepped up. The complete joke is to use a fighters losses to his name opponents to justify he's better then someone else. And magnify his one win above all else.

A healthy Vitali would have few problems beating a heathy HR. :bart

[lefthook31]

Lets face it, here's what HR accomplished after the only big win of his career. He went a "sparkling" 0-3-1 including being KTFO vs Lewis. He then fights a string of near nobodies and gets a title shot vs the so-so Monte Barrett - an awful excuse of a "fight", never mind a title fight. He then draws with JT, an overweight CWT; is stopped again by Oleg; and manages a UD over Sykes, who Peter blasted out in 2. I thought HR is a big puncher? :lol: See? This is easy.
Truly, there are few fighters who have based thier "greatness" from just one win. Lewis haters point to that loss as a big reason why LL isn't all that great. I think that's unfair as HR can bang, and anybody can get caught a few times in a long career.

Baloney. He sustained some bad cuts vs LL. That's why he lost. And he was still fighting well with those cuts.

Why risk a career ending injury? Does anybody but a Vitali hater not think that he could defeat Byrd today like he was then?

The way Johnson tried to do? :rofl If the weak chinned HR pressed Vitali and got caught it would be a repeat of the Kirk fight.

Like some here, I don't use wild exaggertaions and selective sampling to make my points. HR has displayed big punching ability as a HWT, he also has shown average stamina and chin. HR has fought more name fighters than Vitali, and except for that one shinning moment loses or draws most of the time he has stepped up. The complete joke is to use a fighters losses to his name opponents to justify he's better then someone else. And magnify his one win above all else.

A healthy Vitali would have few problems beating a heathy HR. :bart

He sustained bad cuts against Lewis because he was getting his head handed to him, and no he was not still winning rounds, he was losing rounds as Lewis was getting closer and closer and inflicting more damage to him.
Selective sampling:lol: Isnt comparing Rahman to Kirk johnson (which is a complete joke in itself), selective sampling?
As far as Rahmans fights leading up to the mandatory, would you consider Vitalis fights against the part time fighter, Sanders, and Danny Williams, any better?:admin Sanders is a part time boxer for crying out loud!
Rahman may have been inconsistent with what was considered the top 5 contenders, but he fought more of them, and showed more consistency, than Vitali did. Vitali's entire career is based upon a LOSS to a retiring Lewis. Other than that he accomplished very little. :hi:

[T.S.]

I bet Rahman pisses his panties at the thought of fighting any klitschko right now.
Did the mountain of deformity ever swell down from his forehead after getting whupped by older and slower maskaev?

vitali would have killed Hasim "I must be in the front row" Rahman.

[WiDDoW_MaKeR]

Yea, Vitali has been retired for almost 3 years, due to his fear for Hasim Rahman. Not only that, but he gave up a 9 million dollar payday, and wasted thousands upon thousands of dollars, and almost a full year of off and on training camps out of that same fear. I am sure that it had nothing to do with completely blowing out his knee a week out from the fight. I mean, within that year he only under went back and knee surgery. Any decent man who wasn't in fear of another would have taken the back surgery, entered into training camp, and then after they blew out that knee, they would have underwent surgery after the weigh in's on Friday, and stepped into the ring anyways on Saturday. Of course, Vitali was scared of the beast Rahman, after seeing his amazing display against an old Holyfield, and his amazing war with John Ruiz, and couldn't dare step into the ring with him. It is that same fear of Rahman that has kept him sidelined for almost 3 years. Imagine all of the millions that Vitali could have made in that time... if not for the fear.

[kk17]

:patsch:patsch:patsch:patsch:patsch

[PolishPummler]

Those of you who attempt to shoot this down always make the same fatal error...you consider your own opinion of Rahman to be the same as Vitali's perspective. Things were different then, and it's four fights that he backed out of, not three...we've all been through this before.

Though many consider it an inevitable fact that VITKLIT would destroy Rahman now (which by the way is not fact), that has absolutety nothing to do with Rahman's reputation and "aura" at the time...or his entry into the VITKLIT psyche on four different occasions. :smoke

Threads on this topic are always lopsided, in that the KLIT's are popular and Rahman is not...and that KLIT-ites use the "VITALI would knock him out" idea, as some kind of an attempt at making a point. I don't recall anyone ever asking if KLIT-ites are scared for Vitali facing Rahman, the issue is whether or not Vitali might have been afraid.
:patsch

Just shut up.

It's been a long time since Wlad lost do we not have anything better to bash the Klit's about?

Just the thought of Rahman being an "avoided" fighter is laughable.

[lefthook31]

Yea, Vitali has been retired for almost 3 years, due to his fear for Hasim Rahman. Not only that, but he gave up a 9 million dollar payday, and wasted thousands upon thousands of dollars, and almost a full year of off and on training camps out of that same fear. I am sure that it had nothing to do with completely blowing out his knee a week out from the fight. I mean, within that year he only under went back and knee surgery. Any decent man who wasn't in fear of another would have taken the back surgery, entered into training camp, and then after they blew out that knee, they would have underwent surgery after the weigh in's on Friday, and stepped into the ring anyways on Saturday. Of course, Vitali was scared of the beast Rahman, after seeing his amazing display against an old Holyfield, and his amazing war with John Ruiz, and couldn't dare step into the ring with him. It is that same fear of Rahman that has kept him sidelined for almost 3 years. Imagine all of the millions that Vitali could have made in that time... if not for the fear.

Yes and know he is showing his true will and toughness, by returning to face perhaps the biggest p*ssy in heavyweight boxing, Jameel Mcline. Who next, Bruce Seldon? :thumbsup

[AJAX]

Just shut up.

It's been a long time since Wlad lost do we not have anything better to bash the Klit's about?

Just the thought of Rahman being an "avoided" fighter is laughable.

exactly the Haters are grasping for straws at this point, bringing up this stupid arguement is laughable.:-(

[Zakman]

Yes and know he is showing his true will and toughness, by returning to face perhaps the biggest p*ssy in heavyweight boxing, Jameel Mcline. Who next, Bruce Seldon? :thumbsup

McCline at least has a chin. Seldon is more along the lines of Rahman - grade A china. :nod

[CANNONBALL]

I Think Not Fucko's

[Shotgun]

He left a guaranteed $8 million on the table and paid reputable doctors to lie about performing major surgery on him in order to avoid the might Hasim Rahman :nut

[NBT]

Dude, this is fucking Rahman we're talking about, there is no point in even discussing this. What's next, George Bush has an IQ above room temperature?

[Suge Green]

Just shut up.

It's been a long time since Wlad lost do we not have anything better to bash the Klit's about?

Just the thought of Rahman being an "avoided" fighter is laughable.

...still haven't figured out the whole "how to write a post" thing, huh...???

[PolishPummler]

...still haven't figured out the whole "how to write a post" thing, huh...???

:?

[Tuavale]

Hell no.:smoke

[Rudiment]

Silly post. Lewis knocked out Rahman in even more devistating fashion than Rahman did Lewis...and a round sooner mind you. Vitali had no qualms facing Lewis in spite of that. So how could Vitali be afraid of Rahman but not of Lewis?

Vitali had a legimate injury...give the guy a break. Vitali most likey would have beaten Rahman similar to the way he beat Danny Williams. Maybe worse.

[cuchulain]

Any fighter that is about to fight Vitali, if they get in trouble, they ought to kick him, right on his bad knee. Jameel McCline, take heed.


Jack??

What you doin' here on this thread???

There has been not a mention of Oscar, or man-love or such, anywhere on this discussion.

And most un-sporting counsel you are dispensing too ! DQ - like stuff.



Who you pickin' in December, Frank ******'s boy or Oscar's new boy?

[A-50]

McCline at least has a chin. Seldon is more along the lines of Rahman - grade A china. :nod


Exactly, Vitali Klitschko would have destroyed the Glass Jawed joke that is Hasben Rahman in 2 or 3 rounds. Rahman is nothing but a glorified journeyman.

[splatter69]

Yes and know he is showing his true will and toughness, by returning to face perhaps the biggest p*ssy in heavyweight boxing, Jameel Mcline. Who next, Bruce Seldon? :thumbsup

Shit, after all his time away McCline is a good come back opponent.

[lefthook31]

Exactly, Vitali Klitschko would have destroyed the Glass Jawed joke that is Hasben Rahman in 2 or 3 rounds. Rahman is nothing but a glorified journeyman.

What is Vitali? :huh

[Artani]

The true is that Vitali afraid to clash Rahman .

[cuchulain]

Yes that's the 'true.'

He was afraid of being charged with murder at the end of the second round.

[The Kurgan]

Vitali, like most elephants, is afraid of spiders. However, he's arachnophobic, not arahmaphobic. Vitali's style would have been very effective against Rahman in 2005; I really regret that he never got the chance to prove it.

[lefthook31]

Vitali, like most elephants, is afraid of spiders. However, he's arachnophobic, not arahmaphobic. Vitali's style would have been very effective against Rahman in 2005; I really regret that he never got the chance to prove it.

I dont know, he fights backwards. Rahman has trouble with guys that bring the fight to him. If he had the chance to establish his jab, I see him busting up the other side of Vitalis face and stopping him late. Please Im still waiting for someone to explain with proven facts why Vitaly, based on his record and experience in fights is better than Rahman? I think its very clear Vitali did everything he could to avoid facing Rahman.

[RUSKULL]

The guy couldnt fight with his knee... period. When his knee started to give out during sparring, he chose to retire.

i dont see why or how anyone really comes to another conclusion.

It's called extreme hate, and Sugie excels at it when it comes to anything Klitschko....................

[RUSKULL]

Rahman knocked out Lewis with one punch, something Vitali couldnt do, so he has verry much respect of this man. So basically yes, Vitali avoided him.

Congrats! Your opinions are in line with those of lefhook246871whatever & Sugie Whitey..................

Maybe with a little fine-tuning you can graduate to the level of Relentless or KOby Briggs for sheer stupidity.

Her's hoping for ya! :good

[RUSKULL]

The true is that Vitali afraid to clash Rahman .

English please.

[Jinx]

Vitaly would've destroyed Rachman late...Vitaly retired because he kept getting injured...

[cuchulain]

Vitaly would've destroyed Rachman late...Vitaly retired because he kept getting injured...


Wrong !

He would have KO'd the dude in the 2nd or 3rd.



As to doing everything to avoid him, there's a clear trail of medical evidence as to why he delayed and finally retired.

And you're probably wasting your time engaging some of the dim-witted Klitschko-haters on this forum. You won't get through to them as their minds are already made up and generally unaffected by evidence or logic.

[Decker]

He sustained bad cuts against Lewis because he was getting his head handed to him, and no he was not still winning rounds, he was losing rounds as Lewis was getting closer and closer and inflicting more damage to him. I guess that's why Vitali was ahead then :nut
Selective sampling:lol: Isnt comparing Rahman to Kirk johnson (which is a complete joke in itself), selective sampling? Nothing to do w/sampling. More like a comparsion you don't like. Unlike you I'm not going to put down fighters that Vitali destroyed. Johnson was a top ranked HWT when Vitali blasted him in 2. That is what bothers you about Kirk. And except for HR facing more names, prime for prime HR & KJ are quite comparable.
As far as Rahmans fights leading up to the mandatory, would you consider Vitalis fights against the part time fighter, Sanders, and Danny Williams, any better?:admin Sanders is a part time boxer for crying out loud! Yes, Sanders & Williams are at least as good comp as what HR was facing durng his "title drive". I say better. The part time (golfer) Sanders routine is silly - grade school level "reasoning". For a part timer Sanders was pretty damn good. For a golfer he almost beat your boy Rahmen. On second thought maybe Rahmen isn't much more than a journeyman like others say. Maybe I gave him too much credit. :yep

Rahman may have been inconsistent with what was considered the top 5 contenders, but he fought more of them, and showed more consistency, than Vitali did. Vitali's entire career is based upon a LOSS to a retiring Lewis. Other than that he accomplished very little. :hi:I posted that HR fought more name opponents than Vitali. Now you're stting up straw man arguments. It's just that HR had done nothing but (mostly) lose vs that comp. Which means you're very wrong that HR was inconsistent vs top fighters, he consistently lost :rofl At least Vitali beat Sanders, Williams, & Johnson - and in a decisive manner. :thumbsup And gave ATG LL a very tough battle. HR's lucky 1-1 vs Lewis is what makes gives him all, and I mean ALL his claim to fame. :p
See how much that counts w/the Zakman's on ESB, who think less of LL than I do. Btw, Zakman (correctly) has been one among many ridiculing your batty Vitali vs HR theories. :yep

[Mind Reader]

This subject has been worn out like Ruiz's welcome in the boxing world. of course he was afraid, he seen how Lewis laid him out with DK crown above his head and seen Maskaev sent him on Lampleys lap.Vitaly was trying to get fights with soft punchers like Lewis and Tyson at that time. Rachman reeks fear in all boxers.


:lol: :lol:

[Mind Reader]

No way in hell did he retire to avoid him....I don't think Vitali is afraid of anyone.

[Asterion]

Nobody retires to avoid a fighter. :rofl

When you want to avoid a mandatory, you just vacate the belt.

[maciek4]

I dont understand why injury is not a valid excuse, as if injuries dont happen to fighters. Recently Vargas was diagnosed with anemia and I already see posters saying that he is a pussy and is backing out. They are only humans fuck christ sake.

[Vantage_West]

No way in hell did he retire to avoid that bum.thats the whole point

it's wiered that he didnt fight him really really bizar of him not to fight him

[lefthook31]

I guess that's why Vitali was ahead then :nut
Nothing to do w/sampling. More like a comparsion you don't like. Unlike you I'm not going to put down fighters that Vitali destroyed. Johnson was a top ranked HWT when Vitali blasted him in 2. That is what bothers you about Kirk. And except for HR facing more names, prime for prime HR & KJ are quite comparable.
Yes, Sanders & Williams are at least as good comp as what HR was facing durng his "title drive". I say better. The part time (golfer) Sanders routine is silly - grade school level "reasoning". For a part timer Sanders was pretty damn good. For a golfer he almost beat your boy Rahmen. On second thought maybe Rahmen isn't much more than a journeyman like others say. Maybe I gave him too much credit. :yep

I posted that HR fought more name opponents than Vitali. Now you're stting up straw man arguments. It's just that HR had done nothing but (mostly) lose vs that comp. Which means you're very wrong that HR was inconsistent vs top fighters, he consistently lost :rofl At least Vitali beat Sanders, Williams, & Johnson - and in a decisive manner. :thumbsup And gave ATG LL a very tough battle. HR's lucky 1-1 vs Lewis is what makes gives him all, and I mean ALL his claim to fame. :p
See how much that counts w/the Zakman's on ESB, who think less of LL than I do. Btw, Zakman (correctly) has been one among many ridiculing your batty Vitali vs HR theories. :yep

This is a good post, but there is still a lot of selective sampling on your part:hey . Regardless of how inconsistent he was, you failed to mention Rahman faced the likes of Evander Holyfield, David Tua, and James Toney, way ahead of anything Kirk Johnson ever was as a heavyewight. In those fights, Rahman in my opinion, beat Toney and Tua, even though getting a draw and fought competively with Holyfield. With the exception of Byrd, and Lewis, both losses, Vitali fought and beat the same caliber of opponent Rahman did, so using your one example that Kirk Johnson was as "top rated fighter", still doesnt show that Vitali fought and beat better compeititon.
As far as Sanders, he was dragged out of retirement to face Wladmir. When he fought Rahman he was a full time fighter, so the comparison is about as fair as Vitali beating Johnson when he did after Johnsons layoffs and out of ring knee problems. Danny Williams thats just a complete joke. Using Williams as an opponent, because he beat a shot Tyson is a joke. That fight should have been an exhibition not a title fight.
If anything coming off of those performances, especially the Sanders fight, you would agree with me, that Vitali would have had a difficult time with Rahman had they fought. :smoke

[Bummy Davis]

The bad back was legit, I dont think anyone thought Rahman had a chance vs Vitali, I think it would have been a shutout until Rahman got KO"D, and it was proven when Rahman got blasted by Maskaev. Vitali would have taken the 8million but he had health problems. He would have flattened Hasim

[The Kurgan]

I dont know, he fights backwards. Rahman has trouble with guys that bring the fight to him. If he had the chance to establish his jab, I see him busting up the other side of Vitalis face and stopping him late. Please Im still waiting for someone to explain with proven facts why Vitaly, based on his record and experience in fights is better than Rahman? I think its very clear Vitali did everything he could to avoid facing Rahman.

I didn't say based on his record. It's his style: long arms, making Rahman lead and firing right hands over his left render Rahman hopeless. Vitali wasn't just a back-foot fighter: given the opporunity, he'd plod forward behind that flicking jab and try to arm-punch his opponent to death.

I don't think Rahman could get his jab started against Vitali, given the height difference and Vitali's perchant for counter-right hands.

[lefthook31]

I didn't say based on his record. It's his style: long arms, making Rahman lead and firing right hands over his left render Rahman hopeless. Vitali wasn't just a back-foot fighter: given the opporunity, he'd plod forward behind that flicking jab and try to arm-punch his opponent to death.

I don't think Rahman could get his jab started against Vitali, given the height difference and Vitali's perchant for counter-right hands.

That was probably Rahmans best weapon was the jab. Like you said Vitali had a flicking jab. Even in the second fight, it started off with Rahman outjabbing Lewis, so the jab for sure would have been the key, and something I think Vitali knew he was going to have trouble with.

[The Kurgan]

That was probably Rahmans best weapon was the jab. Like you said Vitali had a flicking jab. Even in the second fight, it started off with Rahman outjabbing Lewis, so the jab for sure would have been the key, and something I think Vitali knew he was going to have trouble with.

I don't think it would have been a jab contest though. Both of these guys are going to want to get into a brawl, but Vitali's punches are going to be landing first.

[madpup]

This argument is unbelievably stupid. Vitali has an iron chin, Rahman would have not even had a puncher's chance.

[Drexl]

Many of you are missing the point.

Of course we all think Vitali would have beaten Rahman. That's not the question.

The facts are that he postponed the fight several times before "retiring". Maybe Vitali himself wasn't as sure as we are that he would have won.

This "comeback" just adds fuel to the argument that he DID retire to avoid Rahman. Otherwise, why didn't he just take an injury layoff then fight Rahman when he is ready?

[Suge Green]

Many of you are missing the point.

Of course we all think Vitali would have beaten Rahman. That's not the question.

The facts are that he postponed the fight several times before "retiring". Maybe Vitali himself wasn't as sure as we are that he would have won.

This "comeback" just adds fuel to the argument that he DID retire to avoid Rahman. Otherwise, why didn't he just take an injury layoff then fight Rahman when he is ready?

Good luck Drex...I already tried to break it down to these foolish KLIT-ites, still they fail to see the issue.

They turn it into how good VITaLI is and how shitty Rahman is...a typical popularity contest. Conjecture as to the psyche of either Rahman or VitKLIT, is much more valid here than speculating what would have happened had they actually fought...especially with hindsight skewing the whole thing, Rahman had a different presence back then. :smoke

[lefthook31]

Good luck Drex...I already tried to break it down to these foolish KLIT-ites, still they fail to see the issue.

They turn it into how good VITaLI is and how shitty Rahman is...a typical popularity contest. Conjecture as to the psyche of either Rahman or VitKLIT, is much more valid here than speculating what would have happened had they actually fought...especially with hindsight skewing the whole thing, Rahman had a different presence back then. :smoke
Word... Thats right. It amazes me how Vitalis one LOSS to Lewis has so much bearing on him being this eventual great fighter. The fact is, he just started making his way into the upper echelon of competition. He faced a retiring Lewis, LOST, and proceeded to fight two tomato cans before retiring to avoid Rahman.

[cross_trainer]

Good luck Drex...I already tried to break it down to these foolish KLIT-ites, still they fail to see the issue.

They turn it into how good VITaLI is and how shitty Rahman is...a typical popularity contest. Conjecture as to the psyche of either Rahman or VitKLIT, is much more valid here than speculating what would have happened had they actually fought...

It's less valid if the only evidence backing up your speculation is more speculation. When I say Vitali wasn't scared, I do so from Rahman's unimpressive resume. When you argue he does, you don't have anything concrete. We needn't speculate who would have won Rahman-Vitali to deduce that Rahman's record was unimpressive.

The facts remain:

* Vitali's opponents before Rahman were essentially on the same level Rahman himself was. Rahman was coming off an unimpressive performance vs. Barrett and a string of journeymen. By comparison, Williams was coming off an impressive win against (shot) Tyson, Sanders was coming off an impressive win against Wlad. Even Kirk Johnson had a more intimidating recent record than Rahman.

* Vitali did have surgery before, during, and after the Rahman fiasco. He had a history of being injury prone. The plyometric training he was reportedly doing also tends to increase joint wear and tear.

* As others pointed out, he could have dropped the belt if he wanted to avoid Rahman. Taking a FIFTH layoff before fighting Rahman--as Drexl (jokingly, I hope?) recommends--was out of the question.

* He ran for Mayor of Kiev after retirement...Hardly what you would expect of a man planning to stage a comeback as soon as Rahman was out of the picture.








If you're going to argue that Rahman was terrifying Vitali, you're going to have to have more teeth in the argument. In other words, prove that his record up to that time justified the fear.

[semichin]

It's less valid if the only evidence backing up your speculation is more speculation. When I say Vitali wasn't scared, I do so from Rahman's unimpressive resume. When you argue he does, you don't have anything concrete. We needn't speculate who would have won Rahman-Vitali to deduce that Rahman's record was unimpressive.

The facts remain:

* Vitali's opponents before Rahman were essentially on the same level Rahman himself was. Rahman was coming off an unimpressive performance vs. Barrett and a string of journeymen. By comparison, Williams was coming off an impressive win against (shot) Tyson, Sanders was coming off an impressive win against Wlad. Even Kirk Johnson had a more intimidating recent record than Rahman.

* Vitali did have surgery before, during, and after the Rahman fiasco. He had a history of being injury prone. The plyometric training he was reportedly doing also tends to increase joint wear and tear.

* As others pointed out, he could have dropped the belt if he wanted to avoid Rahman. Taking a FIFTH layoff before fighting Rahman--as Drexl (jokingly, I hope?) recommends--was out of the question.

* He ran for Mayor of Kiev after retirement...Hardly what you would expect of a man planning to stage a comeback as soon as Rahman was out of the picture.








If you're going to argue that Rahman was terrifying Vitali, you're going to have to have more teeth in the argument. In other words, prove that his record up to that time justified the fear.:good

[Bummy Davis]

The guy fought Lewis, Sanders, and Tyson conqueror Williams,Johnson, how in the world would he be afraid of anyone,especially Rahman(who struggled with Ruiz, and was KO'd by Maskaev and Tua and Evander

[Mr "T"]

Yea, Vitali has been retired for almost 3 years, due to his fear for Hasim Rahman. Not only that, but he gave up a 9 million dollar payday, and wasted thousands upon thousands of dollars, and almost a full year of off and on training camps out of that same fear. I am sure that it had nothing to do with completely blowing out his knee a week out from the fight. I mean, within that year he only under went back and knee surgery. Any decent man who wasn't in fear of another would have taken the back surgery, entered into training camp, and then after they blew out that knee, they would have underwent surgery after the weigh in's on Friday, and stepped into the ring anyways on Saturday. Of course, Vitali was scared of the beast Rahman, after seeing his amazing display against an old Holyfield, and his amazing war with John Ruiz, and couldn't dare step into the ring with him. It is that same fear of Rahman that has kept him sidelined for almost 3 years. Imagine all of the millions that Vitali could have made in that time... if not for the fear.:lol: :rofl

[PolishPummler]

Good luck Drex...I already tried to break it down to these foolish KLIT-ites, still they fail to see the issue.

They turn it into how good VITaLI is and how shitty Rahman is...a typical popularity contest. Conjecture as to the psyche of either Rahman or VitKLIT, is much more valid here than speculating what would have happened had they actually fought...especially with hindsight skewing the whole thing, Rahman had a different presence back then. :smoke

And there is the problem!Anyone who doesnt agree is a KLIT-ite right?Im not the biggest Klitschko fan at all but i respect them both.You make it out to where if someone is a fan(a normal subjective one not a blind hugger)they are completly blinded.

THIS IS FUCKING HASIM RAHMAN WE ARE TALKING ABOUT HERE.I for one dont think Vitali fears any fighter let alone fucking Rahman.You might just might have a case if it were a prime undefeated Tyson or a Tua we are talking about here but fucking Rahman!@!@!!PLEASE.

Suge is to the Klits what Presscott is to Hoya.Not matter what it's all a conspiracy theory.

I bet half the people that responded dont care for either Klit or Rahman but they responded simply because like me just the thought of Vitali ducking Rahman is absured.

[Suge Green]

And there is the problem!Anyone who doesnt agree is a KLIT-ite right?Im not the biggest Klitschko fan at all but i respect them both.You make it out to where if someone is a fan(a normal subjective one not a blind hugger)they are completly blinded.

THIS IS FUCKING HASIM RAHMAN WE ARE TALKING ABOUT HERE.I for one dont think Vitali fears any fighter let alone fucking Rahman.You might just might have a case if it were a prime undefeated Tyson or a Tua we are talking about here but fucking Rahman!@!@!!PLEASE.

Suge is to the Klits what Presscott is to Hoya.Not matter what it's all a conspiracy theory.

I bet half the people that responded dont care for either Klit or Rahman but they responded simply because like me just the thought of Vitali ducking Rahman is absured.

You are a card carrying KLIT-ite...you think that it would take an Undisputed Champ like Tyson (which VITKLIT was not),or a fighter who has never been stopped like TUA (we all know VITKLIT is hardly unstoppable) in order to scare VItKLiT, after four cancellations with Rahman...???:nut

Quit trying to pretend you aren't on their nuts...I don't know who you are trying to fool.

I don't even hate these guys, i just am not overly impressed with them. So you think I hate them, what do you want me to do cry about it...??? :|

[Suge Green]

It's less valid if the only evidence backing up your speculation is more speculation. When I say Vitali wasn't scared, I do so from Rahman's unimpressive resume. When you argue he does, you don't have anything concrete. We needn't speculate who would have won Rahman-Vitali to deduce that Rahman's record was unimpressive.

The facts remain:

* Vitali's opponents before Rahman were essentially on the same level Rahman himself was. Rahman was coming off an unimpressive performance vs. Barrett and a string of journeymen. By comparison, Williams was coming off an impressive win against (shot) Tyson, Sanders was coming off an impressive win against Wlad. Even Kirk Johnson had a more intimidating recent record than Rahman.

* Vitali did have surgery before, during, and after the Rahman fiasco. He had a history of being injury prone. The plyometric training he was reportedly doing also tends to increase joint wear and tear.

* As others pointed out, he could have dropped the belt if he wanted to avoid Rahman. Taking a FIFTH layoff before fighting Rahman--as Drexl (jokingly, I hope?) recommends--was out of the question.

* He ran for Mayor of Kiev after retirement...Hardly what you would expect of a man planning to stage a comeback as soon as Rahman was out of the picture.

If you're going to argue that Rahman was terrifying Vitali, you're going to have to have more teeth in the argument. In other words, prove that his record up to that time justified the fear.

Yeah, Cross...that's great that you want to argue this but I don't remember making a case on Rahman's behalf, about the four occasions VITKLIT backed out of a fight with him...back when Rahman still had an aura of contention, and had a KO of LL in his recent past...no, sorry...

...what I was stating is that those of you arguing on VITKLIT's behalf are making points based on how much Rahman sucked, and how good Vitali is...which is not what this thread is about. It's about whether or not Vitali feared Rahman...it's about the possibility that Rahman may have been in Vitali's head at the time, may have had his number, or maybe didn't like how they matched up (in his opinion, not ours), or of course his KO of LL could have been a factor...or who knows, what other possible reasons there could have been.

What this is not about is "Rahman sucks, and VITKLIT would kill him."

[psychopath]

Just seems Vitali was really weird about fighting Rahman. He had three fights cancelled, acted all crazy trying to avoid him to fight Sanders and Williams, and then when it came down to it and he had no where to run, he retires???
Now that Rahman has been reduced to a club fighter, he decides to comeback???

Discuss...

Of all fighters? :D Rahman? :think :lol:

But I don't know . . . you have a valid arguement. :yep

[Zakman]

Yeah, Cross...that's great that you want to argue this but I don't remember making a case on Rahman's behalf, about the four occasions VITKLIT backed out of a fight with him...back when Rahman still had an aura of contention, and had a KO of LL in his recent past...no, sorry...

...what I was stating is that those of you arguing on VITKLIT's behalf are making points based on how much Rahman sucked, and how good Vitali is...which is not what this thread is about. It's about whether or not Vitali feared Rahman...it's about the possibility that Rahman may have been in Vitali's head at the time, may have had his number, or maybe didn't like how they matched up (in his opinion, not ours), or of course his KO of LL could have been a factor...or who knows, what other possible reasons there could have been.

No matter how you spin it, you can't change the fact that Rahman had one significant win since beating Lewis, and that was against fringe contender Monte Barrett. His "aura of contention" was as flimsy as his fragile whiskers. :yep

[Suge Green]

No matter how you spin it, you can't change the fact that Rahman had one significant win since beating Lewis, and that was against fringe contender Monte Barrett. His "aura of contention" was as flimsy as his fragile whiskers. :yep

...and VITKLIT's wins were significant...???

What everyone forgets is the playing field was much more level at the time...VITKLIT and Rahman were both competitors on the same level as far as world class fighters go...you know, B level fighters...don't let the temporary gold fool you.

[PolishPummler]

You are a card carrying KLIT-ite...you think that it would take an Undisputed Champ like Tyson (which VITKLIT was not),or a fighter who has never been stopped like TUA (we all know VITKLIT is hardly unstoppable) in order to scare VItKLiT, after four cancellations with Rahman...???:nut

Quit trying to pretend you aren't on their nuts...I don't know who you are trying to fool.

I don't even hate these guys, i just am not overly impressed with them. So you think I hate them, what do you want me to do cry about it...??? :|

You dont hate them yet 90% of your posts are anti Klitshcko.:think

:thumbsup :hi:

[BoxingGuru]

Yeah Vitali fought the best fighter of our era (Lewis) but was scared of the one that got knocked out cold by Oleg Maskaev.

[thesandman]

Look, this thread is a wind up. I enjoy baiting the Klit fans too.

The problem with the argument FOR Vitlay is this. He postponed the fight with Rahman many (4) times. THEN - asked to fight somebody (I forget who), INSTEAD of Rahman. When that was declined, he retired.

So, he was not fit to fight Rahman, but fit to fight another voluntary??????

You're fit or you're not.


(BTW - I think Vitlay demolishes Rahman even if he sits on a stool....)

[Drexl]

* As others pointed out, he could have dropped the belt if he wanted to avoid Rahman. Taking a FIFTH layoff before fighting Rahman--as Drexl (jokingly, I hope?) recommends--was out of the question.


A fifth is out of the question but a fourth is fine?

The situation was already ridiculous, what difference would it have made?

[semichin]

The best response on here to nullify all these Klit haters is what Boxing guru said. Why would Vitali be afraid of Rahnam when he faced Lewis and wanted a rematch at that.

[lefthook31]

The best response on here to nullify all these Klit haters is what Boxing guru said. Why would Vitali be afraid of Rahnam when he faced Lewis and wanted a rematch at that.
Because I believe Rahman was probably going to be his stiffest test behind Lewis. Lewis was older and on his way out. Maybe he never was able to get into the proper condition to where he believed he could fight Rahman and win. Regardless of what everyone says about Rahman, he really was a big threat to Vitali. Vitali didnt have that much experience against fighters with Rahmans skills, and thats not to say Rahman was anything that great.

[cross_trainer]

A fifth is out of the question but a fourth is fine?

The situation was already ridiculous, what difference would it have made?
You think they would have granted a fifth postponement? Just how long do you want an injured Vitali to hold the belt hostage? :patsch

Vitali is only now in fighting trim. Perhaps he should have waited another three years?

[cross_trainer]

Yeah, Cross...that's great that you want to argue this but I don't remember making a case on Rahman's behalf, about the four occasions VITKLIT backed out of a fight with him...back when Rahman still had an aura of contention, and had a KO of LL in his recent past...no, sorry...
Not exactly sure what you're saying here. Rahman did not have any more of an aura than other fighters Vitali chose to fight.


...what I was stating is that those of you arguing on VITKLIT's behalf are making points based on how much Rahman sucked, and how good Vitali is...which is not what this thread is about. It's about whether or not Vitali feared Rahman...it's about the possibility that Rahman may have been in Vitali's head at the time, may have had his number, or maybe didn't like how they matched up (in his opinion, not ours), or of course his KO of LL could have been a factor...or who knows, what other possible reasons there could have been.
...Which is exactly the point. If you want to believe Vitali feared Rahman, he must have had a reason. Since Rahman wasn't better than the fighters he DID face, what's the reason? (For bonus points--are there any sources that support the reason?)


What this is not about is "Rahman sucks, and VITKLIT would kill him."
Rahman sucking is a perfectly reasonable argument. If a fighter sucks, he's not very scary.

(For the record, Rahman doesn't suck. But he hardly had an aura of invincibility, and that was crystal clear even at the time this was going on).

[cross_trainer]

Here's the problem: you want an argument about whether Vitali was scared of Rahman, but you don't want any facts involved. When real concrete evidence is mentioned (Rahman's ability, Vitali could have dropped the belt, Vitali had a history of injuries, Vitali ran for mayor of Kiev), you returning to the nebulous "we're talking about Vitali's state of mind...facts aren't relevant here".

It's just silly. Without factual information, you can dream up any fantasy you want about a fighter's "state of mind".

[lefthook31]

Here's the problem: you want an argument about whether Vitali was scared of Rahman, but you don't want any facts involved. When real concrete evidence is mentioned (Rahman's ability, Vitali could have dropped the belt, Vitali had a history of injuries, Vitali ran for mayor of Kiev), you returning to the nebulous "we're talking about Vitali's state of mind...facts aren't relevant here".

It's just silly. Without factual information, you can dream up any fantasy you want about a fighter's "state of mind".
I understand all the points your making, but I dont agree that Rahmans "ability" should just be looked as if it was a sure win for Vitali because he faced and lost to Lewis. Rahman by far represented the bigger challenge to Vitali over guys like Sanders and Williams.
I dont think Vitali would vacate the title to fight someone like Danny Williams if he was forced to fight his mandatory, he would be blackballed from the sport.

[cross_trainer]

...and VITKLIT's wins were significant...???

What everyone forgets is the playing field was much more level at the time...VITKLIT and Rahman were both competitors on the same level as far as world class fighters go...you know, B level fighters...don't let the temporary gold fool you.

Vitali had disposed of several Rahman-level fighters leading up to the Rahman fight. Rahman had beaten a few journeymen and fought an ugly sparring match with Barrett. Not really comparable.

[lefthook31]

Vitali had disposed of several Rahman-level fighters leading up to the Rahman fight. Rahman had beaten a few journeymen and fought an ugly sparring match with Barrett. Not really comparable.
And who are these Rahman level fighters, that won the title and competed against guys like Evander Holyfield, David Tua and James Toney? Please dont say Kirk Johnson.. The rest is pure garbage.

[DoumB]

this is a fighter who fought Lewis and wanted Tyson, He is not affraid of ne one and especialy Rahman

[markclow]

Vitali would not be scared of Rahman as he is a much better fighter.

[cross_trainer]

I understand all the points your making, but I dont agree that Rahmans "ability" should just be looked as if it was a sure win for Vitali because he faced and lost to Lewis. Rahman by far represented the bigger challenge to Vitali over guys like Sanders and Williams.
I dont think Vitali would vacate the title to fight someone like Danny Williams if he was forced to fight his mandatory, he would be blackballed from the sport.

It wasn't a "sure win". But his record makes it clear that he was not an intimidating superman either. His recent accomplishments--journeyman wreckage + bad Barrett fight--were certainly no better than Sanders, who brutally destroyed the #1 contender. Nor were they better than Kirk Johnson, who had beaten everyone put in front of him (except Ruiz, where he was winning and DQ'd).

[DoumB]

And who are these Rahman level fighters, that won the title and competed against guys like Evander Holyfield, David Tua and James Toney? Please dont say Kirk Johnson.. The rest is pure garbage.

rahman is a journeyman and nothing more, your hate is blatant and you cant hide it wich cause your credibility to go down.

[cross_trainer]

And who are these Rahman level fighters, that won the title and competed against guys like Evander Holyfield, David Tua and James Toney? Please dont say Kirk Johnson.. The rest is pure garbage.
Look at Rahman's pre-Vitali performances, not his record as a whole. The Lewis fight had been over four years before. His record against top contenders after Lewis and before Vitali was rather pathetic--1-3-1, INCLUDING Barrett.

At least Sanders had a destruction of a top contender, Williams beat Tyson soundly, and Johnson had good performances. Rahman? A few journeymen a la Shannon Briggs and a weak victory over Barrett. Not bad, but not the stuff of fearsome legends.

[lefthook31]

It wasn't a "sure win". But his record makes it clear that he was not an intimidating superman either. His recent accomplishments--journeyman wreckage + bad Barrett fight--were certainly no better than Sanders, who brutally destroyed the #1 contender. Nor were they better than Kirk Johnson, who had beaten everyone put in front of him (except Ruiz, where he was winning and DQ'd).
Johnson beat everyone they put in front of them except Ruiz? Is that a great accomplishment? Peter McNeely beat everyone they put in front of him leading up the Tyson fight. Who did Corrie Sanders brutally destroy? Ruiz was ahead on the cards when they stopped the fight with Johnson.

[lefthook31]

Look at Rahman's pre-Vitali performances, not his record as a whole. The Lewis fight had been over four years before. His record against top contenders after Lewis and before Vitali was rather pathetic--1-3-1, INCLUDING Barrett.

At least Sanders had a destruction of a top contender, Williams beat Tyson soundly, and Johnson had good performances. Rahman? A few journeymen a la Shannon Briggs and a weak victory over Barrett. Not bad, but not the stuff of fearsome legends.

Sanders was getting ready for the PGA and hadnt laced on a pair of gloves in a long time. Williams was a hand picked bum who beat an old Tyson, whom Tyson almost knocked out in the first round.
Rahman seemed to show up in the better fights and Vitali knew it.

[cross_trainer]

Johnson beat everyone they put in front of them except Ruiz? Is that a great accomplishment? Peter McNeely beat everyone they put in front of him leading up the Tyson fight. Who did Corrie Sanders brutally destroy? Ruiz was ahead on the cards when they stopped the fight with Johnson.
Corrie Sanders brutally destroyed Wladimir Klitschko, who was the #1 contender at the time if memory serves...as he is currently.

Johnson--he'd beaten Maskaev and Donald in the same timeframe as Rahman going 1-3-1. They were as good or better than Barrett, and did it more impressively.

These guys were both at Rahman's level going into the Vitali fight. Rahman was better at his peak than either of these guys, but he was definitely no longer at his peak.

[cross_trainer]

Sanders was getting ready for the PGA and hadnt laced on a pair of gloves in a long time. Williams was a hand picked bum who beat an old Tyson, whom Tyson almost knocked out in the first round.
Rahman seemed to show up in the better fights and Vitali knew it.

But that's the problem--Rahman did NOT show up in the better fights. He lost to Tua, Ruiz, and Holyfield, which were all major fights. He only showed up against Lennox Lewis.

[cross_trainer]

Put it another way--Vitali's opposition throughout his career was mediocre. But Hasim Rahman would have only been another mediocre opponent on the ledger if the fight had come off. I see nothing differentiating him from the slew of equally questionable opponents that Vitali faced instead of going after the other beltholders or young contenders.

[lefthook31]

rahman is a journeyman and nothing more, your hate is blatant and you cant hide it wich cause your credibility to go down.

Rahman who won the title and won two different eliminators to fight for the title is a journeymen? :huh

I dont hate any fighters, but I will argue all day with people like you who think fighters that havent done shit are King Kong. Both Klitshkos have a history of quitting in fights, and fact is Vitalis entire career is based on a loss to an old retiring Lennox Lewis. If you want to believe that he was some dynamo based off of that fine, but I cant agree with it.
Thats why I made the other thread about Brian Nielson. If Super Brian was 6'7 and ripped, based on his bronze medal at the olympics and the similar competition he fought to Vitali's he would have been held in a much higher regard than he was.:good

[cross_trainer]

Rahman who won the title and won two different eliminators to fight for the title is a journeymen? :huh

Nope. He was a legit contender, but not a very good one. Like the other "filler" in Vitali's resume.


I dont hate any fighters, but I will argue all day with people like you who think fighters that havent done shit are King Kong. Both Klitshkos have a history of quitting in fights, and fact is Vitalis entire career is based on a loss to an old retiring Lennox Lewis. If you want to believe that he was some dynamo based off of that fine, but I cant agree with it.
Thats why I made the other thread about Brian Nielson. If Super Brian was 6'7 and ripped, based on his bronze medal at the olympics and the similar competition he fought to Vitali's he would have been held in a much higher regard than he was.:good

That's another issue, though. Vitali wasn't a great fighter, but he was a much better one than the version of Rahman he would have been facing.

[lefthook31]

But that's the problem--Rahman did NOT show up in the better fights. He lost to Tua, Ruiz, and Holyfield, which were all major fights. He only showed up against Lennox Lewis.

He drew with Tua in the second fight and Toney, many thought he won both. He was beating Tua in the first fight until Tua nailed him at the end of the round after the bell.

[cross_trainer]

Looked over Brian Nielson's resume again. There are certain similarities, but he never beat a fighter ranked in the top 10 by Ring Magazine (at least, I do not believe so) and his loss to Ryan is far worse than Vitali's losses to either Byrd or Lennox.

[cross_trainer]

He drew with Tua in the second fight and Toney, many thought he won both. He was beating Tua in the first fight until Tua nailed him at the end of the round after the bell.
He only beat Toney after Vitali made the decision to retire. As to the Tua fight--that is the same sort of reasoning given for Vitali's two defeats by Klitschko fanatics. He lost one fight and drew the second, neither of which are really impressive. Also lost to John Ruiz.

[Drexl]

You think they would have granted a fifth postponement? Just how long do you want an injured Vitali to hold the belt hostage? :patsch

Vitali is only now in fighting trim. Perhaps he should have waited another three years?

No, they wouldn't have granted a fifth postponement. Again that is not the issue. Vitali held the belt hostage for as long as he could.

He should have relinquished the belt, and had an injury layoff. That way he would remained in the rankings by legit means, rather than via the "Emeritus Champion" bullshit.

Instead he "retired due to career ending injuries" that miraculously weren't career ending once Rahman was out of the picture.

[lefthook31]

Looked over Brian Nielson's resume again. There are certain similarities, but he never beat a fighter ranked in the top 10 by Ring Magazine (at least, I do not believe so) and his loss to Ryan is far worse than Vitali's losses to either Byrd or Lennox.
Well he avenged that defeat and you wouldnt believe who Rahman is scheduled to face next? Dickie Ryan.
These threads are for arguement sakes, dont take it personally. Do I really think Vitali retired to avoid Rahman? Nahhh, but I do believe he expected a real tough fight, one he could never get himself in condition for, due to his injuries which were legit.
Vitali was a decent fighter, but like his brother, he was just starting to make it to the big time learning what it takes mentally to compete against the upper level of the division, against fighters who wouldnt simply comply with their styles and lay down. Just like the Peter fight for Wlad, Vitali faced an older shopworn Lewis who wouldnt quit, and those were the gut check fights for both brothers, where they didnt quit they carried on. Thats when a fighter takes it to the next level, and all those previous fights were about as impressive as Brian Nielsons.

[Scar]

He got injured, plain and simple. Funny how he's scared shitless of Rahman to some people but was running after Lewis for 1 year to get a rematch, don't forget that he took the first fight on short notice.

[Drexl]

He got injured, plain and simple. Funny how he's scared shitless of Rahman to some people but was running after Lewis for 1 year to get a rematch.

Yeah, a near 40-year-old Lewis. I didn't see him running after Lewis when he was 25 to 30-0 and Lewis was in his prime... :think


, don't forget that he took the first fight on short notice.

He had no choice. How would it have looked if he turned it down.
Both fighters were training and both took the new opponent on short notice.

[cross_trainer]

No, they wouldn't have granted a fifth postponement. Again that is not the issue. Vitali held the belt hostage for as long as he could..

You're drifting from the issue. The issue is whether Vitali was afraid of Rahman and ducking him. If Vitali had wanted to duck Rahman, postponement or an "injury" layoff amount to the same thing. Both delay the fight but do not eliminate it, and neither is a very good method for ducking anybody.

Again, if Vitali was afraid of Rahman why wouldn't he recover from his injuries and fight for another belt instead? And why do you conclude he was ducking Rahman at all when Vitali was actually injured?


He should have relinquished the belt, and had an injury layoff. That way he would remained in the rankings by legit means, rather than via the "Emeritus Champion" bullshit..

As I said above, the method he used was irrelevant. Postponement or injury layoff amount to the same thing.


Instead he "retired due to career ending injuries" that miraculously weren't career ending once Rahman was out of the picture.

I'm honestly beginning to think you're arguing for the sake of arguing, or for annoying Klitschko fans/fanatics, rather than trying to have a serious discussion. If so, please tell me now. There are always other, more serious threads I could resurrect discussing the issue. :hey

The answer to your objection is obvious. He ran for mayor and was retired for three years before coming back. Nobody in their right mind would be willing to take a permanent job and waste three years of their prime just to be able to avoid a lackluster fighter like Rahman. That's absurd.

[RUSKULL]

It's less valid if the only evidence backing up your speculation is more speculation. When I say Vitali wasn't scared, I do so from Rahman's unimpressive resume. When you argue he does, you don't have anything concrete. We needn't speculate who would have won Rahman-Vitali to deduce that Rahman's record was unimpressive.

The facts remain:

* Vitali's opponents before Rahman were essentially on the same level Rahman himself was. Rahman was coming off an unimpressive performance vs. Barrett and a string of journeymen. By comparison, Williams was coming off an impressive win against (shot) Tyson, Sanders was coming off an impressive win against Wlad. Even Kirk Johnson had a more intimidating recent record than Rahman.

* Vitali did have surgery before, during, and after the Rahman fiasco. He had a history of being injury prone. The plyometric training he was reportedly doing also tends to increase joint wear and tear.

* As others pointed out, he could have dropped the belt if he wanted to avoid Rahman. Taking a FIFTH layoff before fighting Rahman--as Drexl (jokingly, I hope?) recommends--was out of the question.

* He ran for Mayor of Kiev after retirement...Hardly what you would expect of a man planning to stage a comeback as soon as Rahman was out of the picture.








If you're going to argue that Rahman was terrifying Vitali, you're going to have to have more teeth in the argument. In other words, prove that his record up to that time justified the fear.

Exactly, well done.

[cross_trainer]

Well he avenged that defeat and you wouldnt believe who Rahman is scheduled to face next? Dickie Ryan.
These threads are for arguement sakes, dont take it personally..

I never do. It's just occasionally disappointing to see so much "agenda" (for want of a better description) on such a seemingly objective topic. Fer cryin' out loud, there are better ways for posters to spend their lives than screaming "hater" and "hugger" at each other.

I realize you're just having fun. :good

Do I really think Vitali retired to avoid Rahman? Nahhh, but I do believe he expected a real tough fight, one he could never get himself in condition for, due to his injuries which were legit. ..

This is my conclusion. As I've said, Rahman wasn't a bad fighter. He was no longer at his best when Vitali would have nabbed him, and wasn't more threatening than Vitali's past opponent, but he wasn't the sort of guy you'd want to fight if you had an injury.



Vitali was a decent fighter, but like his brother, he was just starting to make it to the big time learning what it takes mentally to compete against the upper level of the division, against fighters who wouldnt simply comply with their styles and lay down. Just like the Peter fight for Wlad, Vitali faced an older shopworn Lewis who wouldnt quit, and those were the gut check fights for both brothers, where they didnt quit they carried on. Thats when a fighter takes it to the next level, and all those previous fights were about as impressive as Brian Nielsons.

Sounds right. But there's the rub--Vitali did have a career beyond his "Brian Nielson" stage.

[lefthook31]

I never do. It's just occasionally disappointing to see so much "agenda" (for want of a better description) on such a seemingly objective topic. Fer cryin' out loud, there are better ways for posters to spend their lives than screaming "hater" and "hugger" at each other.

I realize you're just having fun. :good



This is my conclusion. As I've said, Rahman wasn't a bad fighter. He was no longer at his best when Vitali would have nabbed him, and wasn't more threatening than Vitali's past opponent, but he wasn't the sort of guy you'd want to fight if you had an injury.




Sounds right. But there's the rub--Vitali did have a career beyond his "Brian Nielson" stage.
Somewhat of a post career, but Williams, Sanders, and Johnson, hardly represents murderers row. Certainly Rahman would have fit in much nicer in the history books than all three. :good

[cross_trainer]

Somewhat of a post career, but Williams, Sanders, and Johnson, hardly represents murderers row. Certainly Rahman would have fit in much nicer in the history books than all three. :good

I agree, actually. But that's only because Sanders, Johnson, and Williams all showed up fat and undermotivated. Strange coincidence, now that I think on it....even Lewis did.

Each of these men were on the same level as Rahman--it's only the conditioning that differs. There was no way that Vitali could have known when he signed the contract that any of these men would show up fat and sloppy. If he was willing to sign to face an in-shape Johnson, Sanders, Williams, and Lewis (as everyone assumed they would be), he wouldn't have been scared of Rahman either.

[AJAX]

This is my last post in this arguement of stupidity, If people are that desparate to hate on Vitaly to talk about 3 yrs ago and how he was "afraid" of Rachman then they should give their head a check. your grasping for straws haters and looking very desparate in doing so.:verysad

[lefthook31]

[quote=AJAX]This is my last post in this arguement of stupidity, If people are that desparate to hate on Vitaly to talk about 3 yrs ago and how he was "afraid" of Rachman then they should give their head a check. your grasping for straws haters and looking very desparate in doing so.:verysad[/quote



Are you sure its your last post?

[H .]

Yeah, a near 40-year-old Lewis. I didn't see him running after Lewis when he was 25 to 30-0 and Lewis was in his prime... :think

So you believe that in Vitali's mind, Rahman was a more dangerous opponent than Lewis?

[lefthook31]

So you believe that in Vitali's mind, Rahman was a more dangerous opponent than Lewis?
I do at that time.

[H .]

I do at that time.

That would make for an interesting poll (this thread would've made a great poll too)

[Odo]

Just seems Vitali was really weird about fighting Rahman. He had three fights cancelled, acted all crazy trying to avoid him to fight Sanders and Williams, and then when it came down to it and he had no where to run, he retires???
Now that Rahman has been reduced to a club fighter, he decides to comeback???

Discuss...

What are we suppussed to discuss? Your ridiculous speculations?
Vitaly retired because of ...........Rahman?
He had beaten much better fighter before.Why on earth do you think that his retirement at that time has any connections with Rahman?

[Drexl]

So you believe that in Vitali's mind, Rahman was a more dangerous opponent than Lewis?

I don't know what Vitali was in Vitali's mind. Neither do you.

I was simply making a statement of fact. Read into it what you will...

[lefthook31]

What are we suppussed to discuss? Your ridiculous speculations?
Vitaly retired because of ...........Rahman?
He had beaten much better fighter before.Why on earth do you think that his retirement at that time has any connections with Rahman?

Why dont you please read the previous 10 pages before putting up a post like this.:patsch

[paulfv]

Absolutely, Vitali retired to avoid Rahman.

Who wouldn't retire rather than face a guy who was knocked out of the ring by Maskaev, got beaten by Lewis and an OLD Holyfield, and was beaten soundly by John Ruiz.

Why would a guy who never lost except when injured NOT fear such a formidable adversary. I mean, Vitali had never even been knocked down (and still hasn't been) in his career, let alone knocked out, so he had to be quivering with fear at Rahman's power, didn't he? He's only human.

Or perhaps Vitali feared he would lose his still-ongoing streak of never trailing on the scorecards in any professional boxing match he's ever participated in to the deft, boxing-specialist Rahman?

But for very basic logic, I think the concept that Vitali retired rather than face Rahman is a very strong, laudable one. I don't think Vitali cared if Don King got options on his future fights, and I don't think Vitali was really injured, even though he ended up having surgery.

[Odo]

Why dont you please read the previous 10 pages before putting up a post like this.:patsch

Because the first post of this thread made me blood boil with anger,mate!:(

[Drexl]

Absolutely, Vitali retired to avoid Rahman.

Who wouldn't retire rather than face a guy who was knocked out of the ring by Maskaev, got beaten by Lewis and an OLD Holyfield, and was beaten soundly by John Ruiz.

Why would a guy who never lost except when injured NOT fear such a formidable adversary. I mean, Vitali had never even been knocked down (and still hasn't been) in his career, let alone knocked out, so he had to be quivering with fear at Rahman's power, didn't he? He's only human.

Or perhaps Vitali feared he would lose his still-ongoing streak of never trailing on the scorecards in any professional boxing match he's ever participated in to the deft, boxing-specialist Rahman?

But for very basic logic, I think the concept that Vitali retired rather than face Rahman is a very strong, laudable one. I don't think Vitali cared if Don King got options on his future fights, and I don't think Vitali was really injured, even though he ended up having surgery.


Forget all that. Let's get down to the important issues here....


What was your IQ again?

[Scar]

English please.

You know, at least he's trying his best to discuss with everyone here even though English isn't his first language. Being picked on by complete morons for his English shows how fucking cheap some are. Even with his English not being perfect he makes sense more than half the members here.

[Suge Green]

You dont hate them yet 90% of your posts are anti Klitshcko.:think

:thumbsup :hi:

BS...

Although I make no claims that I am as familiar with, or interested in your posting, as you seem to be with mine... it would seem that 90% of your posts seem to compliment or defend the KLIT's, yet you claim not to be a fan...:oops:

[box03]

BS...

Although I make no claims that I am as familiar with, or interested in your posting, as you seem to be with mine... it would seem that 90% of your posts seem to compliment or defend the KLIT's, yet you claim not to be a fan...:oops: wlad is overrated if he was sent back to the early 90s fighters such as a prime bowe,holyfield,and especially george foreman would literally kill him in the ring it would resemble the fight he had with gerry cooney were foreman blew him out in 87 i just wish people would wake up and realize wlad aint shit and will get knocked out again by a no name like corrie sanders again

[Suge Green]

Vitali had disposed of several Rahman-level fighters leading up to the Rahman fight. Rahman had beaten a few journeymen and fought an ugly sparring match with Barrett. Not really comparable.

The only reason they may seem incomparable to you is your biased summary. Don't get me wrong, your a competent poster, however you are also, without question a KLIT fan. Which is fine, but you seem to want to cloak your admiration for the KLIT's with a pseudo-perspective of impartiality...yet you always end up on the same side of the discussion.

How many times did you take this back to your "Rahman sucks, VITKLIT is good..." logic...??? Sure you change the words around, but it's the same "point." Anyways, I lost count.
This thread has nothing to do with, "Do Vitali's fans think he retired to avoid Rahman...???" It's about what Vitali may have thought.
I make no claims of offering an emormous amout of facts on the subject (few are available), but my main point is the VITKLIT backed out of fighting HASIM four times, and Hasim is 1-1 with Lewis...Vitklit at his best, and Lewis at his worse equals Lewis stoppage. You however, make many "points" that have nothing to do with the issue.

It is a prerequisite to either hate Rahman, or blindly admire Vitali to excuse KLIT of not wanting the fight, without at least a little reservation.

...and so what if a guy like Maskaev beat Rahman's ass...??? VITKLIT also had his ass handed to him last time he touched gloves with OLEG, it might have been the amateurs, but it's still an unavenged loss.

The fact is VITKLIT backed out four times. Who knows how big of a factor it may have been in Vitali's head that Rahman blasted Lewis, and all VITKLIT accomplished against an underprepared, unmotivated shell of Lewis was making a good case for malpractice against Dr. Lewis' bothed eye surgery.

You can make believe he was injured, all four times he was to fight Rahman. Vitali having surgery is not a point either, he could have cancelled once...had surgery, and that's it. We are talking four times. This is unprecedented, for a fighter to back out of fighting the same person four times, and it was all from Vitali's side.

Rahman had nothing to do with any of it, that's an undisputed fact for you. Since I have no stake in it I'm inclined to believe that it is a very real possibility that at one time, VITKLIT feared Rahman. To deny this as a possibility, is to be a commited fan boy or hater.

[lefthook31]

The only reason they may seem incomparable to you is your biased summary. Don't get me wrong, your a competent poster, however you are also, without question a KLIT fan. Which is fine, but you seem to want to cloak your admiration for the KLIT's with a pseudo-perspective of impartiality...yet you always end up on the same side of the discussion.

How many times did you take this back to your "Rahman sucks, VITKLIT is good..." logic...??? Sure you change the words around, but it's the same "point." Anyways, I lost count.
This thread has nothing to do with, "Do Vitali's fans think he retired to avoid Rahman...???" It's about what Vitali may have thought.
I make no claims of offering an emormous amout of facts on the subject (few are available), but my main point is the VITKLIT backed out of fighting HASIM four times, and Hasim is 1-1 with Lewis...Vitklit at his best, and Lewis at his worse equals Lewis stoppage. You however, make many "points" that have nothing to do with the issue.

It is a prerequisite to either hate Rahman, or blindly admire Vitali to excuse KLIT of not wanting the fight, without at least a little reservation.

...and so what if a guy like Maskaev beat Rahman's ass...??? VITKLIT also had his ass handed to him last time he touched gloves with OLEG, it might have been the amateurs, but it's still an unavenged loss.

The fact is VITKLIT backed out four times. Who knows how big of a factor it may have been in Vitali's head that Rahman blasted Lewis, and all VITKLIT accomplished against an underprepared, unmotivated shell of Lewis was making a good case for malpractice against Dr. Lewis' bothed eye surgery.

You can make believe he was injured, all four times he was to fight Rahman. Vitali having surgery is not a point either, he could have cancelled once...had surgery, and that's it. We are talking four times. This is unprecedented, for a fighter to back out of fighting the same person four times, and it was all from Vitali's side.

Rahman had nothing to do with any of it, that's an undisputed fact for you. Since I have no stake in it I'm inclined to believe that it is a very real possibility that at one time, VITKLIT feared Rahman. To deny this as a possibility, is to be a commited fan boy or hater.
:good Good post. The Klit fans automatically take this thread to think Vitali was scared of Rahman. Im not so sure thats the case, but I am pretty sure he knew Rahman would be close to his toughest fight to date, and he couldnt get himself prepared properly to feel confident enough to face him. There can be no other reason for so many postponements.

[cross_trainer]

The only reason they may seem incomparable to you is your biased summary. Don't get me wrong, your a competent poster, however you are also, without question a KLIT fan. Which is fine, but you seem to want to cloak your admiration for the KLIT's with a pseudo-perspective of impartiality...yet you always end up on the same side of the discussion.
Incorrect. I have often (always?) argued against Klitschko fans when it comes to historical matchups, and I find Vitali's resume rather lacking compared to other top fighters in the past and even in his own time. I rate him around the same place as Chris Byrd, and below Wlad. You're just so extreme the other way that you don't seem to notice. If you were more balanced in your assessments, you wouldn't see me arguing with you.

But then, this isn't about me. This is about facts--which you seem averse to when the Klitschkos come up.


How many times did you take this back to your "Rahman sucks, VITKLIT is good..." logic...??? Sure you change the words around, but it's the same "point." Anyways, I lost count.
It's OBVIOUSLY relevant. If Byrd retired from injuries rather than face Rahman, I'd give you the same answer. Because Byrd, like Vitali, proved he was willing to face equal/better fighters than Rahman in the past.


This thread has nothing to do with, "Do Vitali's fans think he retired to avoid Rahman...???" It's about what Vitali may have thought.
Which is why past injuries, the opponent's quality, and Vitali's other options are so obviously an issue. Usually thoughts have some basis in fact.


I make no claims of offering an emormous amout of facts on the subject (few are available), but my main point is the VITKLIT backed out of fighting HASIM four times, and Hasim is 1-1 with Lewis...Vitklit at his best, and Lewis at his worse equals Lewis stoppage. You however, make many "points" that have nothing to do with the issue.
At this point I'm simply going to chalk this down to a Klitschko-fan trolling. They are obviously relevant to the point, and I already explained why repeatedly. If you can't see it, I'm sorry.


It is a prerequisite to either hate Rahman, or blindly admire Vitali to excuse KLIT of not wanting the fight, without at least a little reservation.

...and so what if a guy like Maskaev beat Rahman's ass...??? VITKLIT also had his ass handed to him last time he touched gloves with OLEG, it might have been the amateurs, but it's still an unavenged loss.
Vitali's amateur record is so laughably irrelevant compared to Rahman's recent record that it further convinces me you're just fooling around here.


The fact is VITKLIT backed out four times. Who knows how big of a factor it may have been in Vitali's head that Rahman blasted Lewis,
That would seem to be your entire argument. He didn't face him, so he was afraid. And since you're relying on unsubstantiated speculation, your claim has no more basis than any other claimed "insight" into a fighter's mind.

and all VITKLIT accomplished against an underprepared, unmotivated shell of Lewis was making a good case for malpractice against Dr. Lewis' bothed eye surgery.

You can make believe he was injured, all four times he was to fight Rahman. Vitali having surgery is not a point either, he could have cancelled once...had surgery, and that's it. We are talking four times. This is unprecedented, for a fighter to back out of fighting the same person four times, and it was all from Vitali's side.
Asked and answered. Vitali knew that Rahman was dangerous enough that he didn't want to go in without being 100%. His body's tendency to injury prevented it, so he retired.

If you believe that equates to retiring to avoid Rahman, ok. There are other, less biased ways of looking at it.


Rahman had nothing to do with any of it, that's an undisputed fact for you.
When did I say that? He was dangerous enough that Vitali didn't want to face him while injured. If Rahman had been some guy off the street (or even one of Vitali's early opponents) it wouldn't be an issue.

Since I have no stake in it
:lol:

I'm inclined to believe that it is a very real possibility that at one time, VITKLIT feared Rahman. To deny this as a possibility, is to be a commited fan boy or hater.
"As a possibility"? Sure. Just like it's a possibility that Vitali was chomping at the bit to destroy Rahman, that Vitali simply lost interest because of a political career in the offing, or that Vitali retired because voices in his head told him to.

Anything's possible when you're talking about someone's inner psychology. That's why it's such fertile ground for this fantasizing.

[cross_trainer]

:good Good post. The Klit fans automatically take this thread to think Vitali was scared of Rahman. Im not so sure thats the case, but I am pretty sure he knew Rahman would be close to his toughest fight to date, and he couldnt get himself prepared properly to feel confident enough to face him. There can be no other reason for so many postponements.

That depends. Are you saying that Vitali would have avoided Rahman had he been in good condition or that he avoided Rahman because his injury prone body made it difficult to get into good condition, making Rahman more dangerous?

[EpsilonAxis]

yes

[cross_trainer]

yes

Maybe.

[MacManJr.]

No way in hell did he retire to avoid that bum.This should've been the last post in this thread!

[cross_trainer]

Suge, I'm actually a little disappointed with you. In the past, we have been able to have reasonable conversations in spite of the fact you were fiddling around with the Klitschko fanatics. Now you're moving toward the "you're either with me or against me" sort of argumentation. Regrettable.

[Drexl]

Suge, I'm actually a little disappointed with you. In the past, we have been able to have reasonable conversations in spite of the fact you were fiddling around with the Klitschko fanatics. Now you're moving toward the "you're either with me or against me" sort of argumentation. Regrettable.

From the outside it looks like he's just messing with you. Don't get too upset.

[lefthook31]

That depends. Are you saying that Vitali would have avoided Rahman had he been in good condition or that he avoided Rahman because his injury prone body made it difficult to get into good condition, making Rahman more dangerous?
No Im saying he avoided Rahman because he wasnt in good shape. The latter statement in your post, yes.

[cross_trainer]

From the outside it looks like he's just messing with you. Don't get too upset.

'Tis possible. :good

[Suge Green]

Suge, I'm actually a little disappointed with you. In the past, we have been able to have reasonable conversations in spite of the fact you were fiddling around with the Klitschko fanatics.

I'm a little disapointed in you also...well not really. Our top poster is allowed to fumble the ball every now and again...:D

To state the obvious...I'm cool with the sensible KLIT fans, just not the typical foolish KLIT-ites (whose numbers I have reserved counting you among).

Now you're moving toward the "you're either with me or against me" sort of argumentation. Regrettable.

I'm hardly proclaiming "Your with me or against me." :huh...but in a thread of pure speculation based on past events and faded personalities, assaulting the reader with some loosely relevant facts is neither here nor there.

My position is simply that it is possible he was afraid...because of the 4x...(It seemed for a moment like you understood this, until you stated that it's just as possible that Vitali may have been chomping at the bit to get to Rahman. Not even KLIT-ites attempt such an argument Cross, so I'm sure you threw that one in just to see what happens)...and it remains possible after you build up VITKLIT and tear down Rahman. My entrance into this thread was to comment on how many are missing the point, by doing just that...building up Vitali and tearing down Rahman. It's unnecessary and redundant. Boxing fans are familliar with Rahman's lackluster career and title reign, and Vitali's as well.

...and to clarify, when I say "afraid" in this particular case, let me say that I do not believe VITKLIT feared Hasim on a personal level...I'm not saying that Vitali feared being beaten to death, he just feared the possibilty of losing to Rahman, who very well may be the inferior fighter (but if someone has your number...it doesn't matter who is "better").

I still have respect for your posting, I'm just going to have to take your KLIT posts with a grain of salt...you've become a fan of theirs, and for some reason don't want anyone to know, or haven't yet realized it yourself. However your posting as always, speaks for itself.

If you can not, or are unwilling to recognize that after four cancellations Rahman wanted Vitali more than Vitali wanted him (as I stated above, one of your previous posts contradicts this possibility) I am content to remain in friendly disagreement.

[cross_trainer]

I'm a little disapointed in you also...well not really. Our top poster is allowed to fumble the ball every now and again...:D
Deftly played. ;)






I'm hardly proclaiming "Your with me or against me." :huh.
Let me clarify--you believe that your conclusion is the only one that a reasonable person could come to. If someone doesn't come to this conclusion, you assume they must be biased. Hence "with me or against me".


..but in a thread of pure speculation based on past events and faded personalities, assaulting the reader with some loosely relevant facts is neither here nor there.
They're highly relevant to the discussion. When fighters choose to avoid other fighters, they do so because they're threatening in some way. If Rahman wasn't threatening, he was not likely to be ducked. Moreover, a fighter is less likely to be ducking if he has a legitimate excuse, or if he could have ducked a fighter more easily (i.e. drop the belt) and didn't.



My position is simply that it is possible he was afraid...because of the 4x...(It seemed for a moment like you understood this, until you stated that it's just as possible that Vitali may have been chomping at the bit to get to Rahman. Not even KLIT-ites attempt such an argument Cross, so I'm sure you threw that one in just to see what happens)
I threw it out to illustrate we have no idea of anybody's mental state. That's why we're boxing posters, not Vitali's psychiatrists.

I would also argue that you're trying to go further than merely possible. You're saying it's very likely. Is that not so? :hey


...and it remains possible after you build up VITKLIT and tear down Rahman.
Agreed. But LESS possible. The possibility is small enough that it is not LIKELY.


...and to clarify, when I say "afraid" in this particular case, let me say that I do not believe VITKLIT feared Hasim on a personal level...I'm not saying that Vitali feared being beaten to death, he just feared the possibilty of losing to Rahman, who very well may be the inferior fighter (but if someone has your number...it doesn't matter who is "better").
That's quite obvious--I don't think anyone here believes that Vitali believed Rahman would kill him in the ring.

Now you've thrown out that Rahman may have "had Vitali's number", which is what I'm looking for from you--a REASON for Vitali to believe that Rahman could beat him. In what way did he have Vitali's number? What stylistic strengths did he have to enable him to beat Vitali?


I still have respect for your posting, I'm just going to have to take your KLIT posts with a grain of salt...you've become a fan of theirs, and for some reason don't want anyone to know, or haven't yet realized it yourself. However your posting as always, speaks for itself.
I've always been upfront about the fact that I'm a fan of the Klitschkos. What's irksome--and simply wrong--is the implication that being a fan prevents me from being objective about discussing them.

I am certainly willing to stand on my record of Klitschko discussion in the past. Anyone would find it to be reasonably objective.


If you can not, or are unwilling to recognize that after four cancellations Rahman wanted Vitali more than Vitali wanted him (as I stated above, one of your previous posts contradicts this possibility) I am content to remain in friendly disagreement.
Do you believe that Vitali's cancellations were related to his injuries directly--i.e. that Vitali couldn't come in ready because of his body's limitations?

If so, then you have your answer and my agreement, since that's what I've been saying all along. On the other hand, if you believe that Vitali's behavior would have been identical if he had been healthy, then you'll need to show that Vitali had a reason to fear being beaten--that Rahman was a threat.

The floor is yours. :good

[semichin]

From the outside it looks like he's just messing with you. Don't get too upset. Drex: Dr Vooh here, and you are once again, offering an olive branch/leaf/ whatever...( remeber " can't we all just get along " ?? ) :good

[cross_trainer]

Drex: Dr Vooh here, and you are once again, offering an olive branch/leaf/ whatever...( remeber " can't we all just get along " ?? ) :good

NEVER!

As a newly-minted Klitschko fan, I have now discovered my life's purpose. From now on, I must seek to exterminate all non-Klitschko fans from this forum, evicting them with fire, sword, and a blatant abuse of my moderator position.

A time of fear is on the horizon for you, Klitschko haters. Be prepared....

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[Suge Green]

Deftly played. ;)

:good

Let me clarify--you believe that your conclusion is the only one that a reasonable person could come to. If someone doesn't come to this conclusion, you assume they must be biased. Hence "with me or against me".

In this particular case...guilty as charged. If you can not see this as a possibility, bias blinds you. You don't need to subscribe to the same conclusion that I do, but if you can't see the possibility I don't know what else to tell you.

They're highly relevant to the discussion. When fighters choose to avoid other fighters, they do so because they're threatening in some way. If Rahman wasn't threatening, he was not likely to be ducked. Moreover, a fighter is less likely to be ducking if he has a legitimate excuse, or if he could have ducked a fighter more easily (i.e. drop the belt) and didn't.

Why would he drop the belt when he can hold it hostage...???...a tactic that VITKLIT is so fond of that he demonstated it past the 4 Rahman incidents, to the point that he showcased his abilty to do so from retirement (remember that he helped Maskaev do it in hopes that their combined effort would make Peter go away).:yep



I threw it out to illustrate we have no idea of anybody's mental state. That's why we're boxing posters, not Vitali's psychiatrists.

I would also argue that you're trying to go further than merely possible. You're saying it's very likely. Is that not so? :hey

:bart... My personal belief, along with those of the many foolish KLIT-ites posting, are irrelevant...I only make mention of the possibility, this is about what VITALI may have thought.


That's quite obvious--I don't think anyone here believes that Vitali believed Rahman would kill him in the ring.

You never know, some here like to attach accusations to your posts...or argue against points one doesn't even make. With such a sensitive subject, sometimes I find it necessary to bust out the crayons...some of our less intelligent posters may be lurking.

Now you've thrown out that Rahman may have "had Vitali's number", which is what I'm looking for from you--a REASON for Vitali to believe that Rahman could beat him. In what way did he have Vitali's number? What stylistic strengths did he have to enable him to beat Vitali?

Cross, this is such a well traveled road that I didn't know you wouldn't remember how I've likened this to a potential Maskaev-Rahman scenarion in the past. Of course with Hasim getting to play OLEG, and VITKLiT being Rahman.
I only draw this analogy in respect to the, "having someone's number," thing. Regardless, I'd rather not be bated into talking up Rahman, I'm no fan. Perhaps someone else can speculate on what difficulties Vitali may have forseen, facing Rahman in the ring. He may not have wanted to get caught slippin' like Lewis did...that's about as far as I can be forced to take it. I don't care about Hasim.


Do you believe that Vitali's cancellations were related to his injuries directly--i.e. that Vitali couldn't come in ready because of his body's limitations?

You ever been too sick to go to work...???...but well enough to do something you really felt like doing...??? :smoke

On the other hand...

:-((

The floor is yours. :good

Tag...

[cross_trainer]

:bart... My personal belief, along with those of the many foolish KLIT-ites posting, are irrelevant...I only make mention of the possibility, this is about what VITALI may have thought.

I'm cutting the Gordian knot here. Yes, it's possible. It's also highly unlikely given the alternatives.

Ranks in about the same place as Lewis "ducking" Vitali.

[lefthook31]

I'm cutting the Gordian knot here. Yes, it's possible. It's also highly unlikely given the alternatives.

Ranks in about the same place as Lewis "ducking" Vitali.

Ranks in the same place as Lewis ducking Byrd, which he did.

[lefthook31]

This is just some foolish nonsense started by Vitali haters.

12 pages of nonsense huh? Read through some of the post you might see some light to this. Dont ASSume it just means Vitali is a chicken.:rasta

[Suge Green]

I'm cutting the Gordian knot here. Yes, it's possible. It's also highly unlikely given the alternatives.

Ranks in about the same place as Lewis "ducking" Vitali.

Interesting...but what if Lewis would have made the match with VITKLIT four times, and pulled out of all of them due to injuries...???

I don't think it would be much of a conversation...Lewis would immediately be branded a coward. However if one applies the same standard to Vitali, the post must be motivated by hate...:nut

[Toopretty]

I read through the posts and I agree on a few things. Vitali did not want to fight .. Maybe b/c he was not at 100% or he knew he needed to be. Or he thought Rahman could catch him with that right hand before he would be able to take Rahman out. Either way he avoided the fight. He there is no doubt about that. Reasons could be all that are stated by both sides. One side or maybe a mixture.

[PolishPummler]

Vitali is called a quitter for not finishing a fight he was dominating due to a legit injury.

Suge why dont you call Brewster a quitter for quitting on his stool after he knew he couldnt win?A jab was all it took to break his spirit.

[Toopretty]

Vitali is called a quitter for not finishing a fight he was dominating due to a legit injury.

Suge why dont you call Brewster a quitter for quitting on his stool after he knew he couldnt win?A jab was all it took to break his spirit.

ThAt was funny though.That was like a big FUCK YOU...to Wlad..Like haha you didnt get your revenge in a dish. Wlad should of went for it earlier. :huh:huh But hey...it was funny being as though that brewster was pretty much there to be knocked out like a sacrificial lamb and he dipped out with a paycheck..:yep

[Suge Green]

Suge why dont you call Brewster a quitter for quitting on his stool after he knew he couldnt win?A jab was all it took to break his spirit.

I did...you must have forgot the "shell of Brewster" thread. :smoke

[cross_trainer]

Interesting...but what if Lewis would have made the match with VITKLIT four times, and pulled out of all of them due to injuries...???

I don't think it would be much of a conversation...Lewis would immediately be branded a coward. However if one applies the same standard to Vitali, the post must be motivated by hate...:nut

Yeah, that would have been the accusation--by rabid anti-Lennox partisans. We're talking about the middle of the road here. Vitali didn't want to fight Rahman because his injuries made him incapable of preparing, and Lennox declined fighting Vitali because his age created the same problem (plus, he had already accomplished what he wanted to).

They both chose not to take a dangerous fight because "fate", for want of a better word, prevented them from being able to prepare.

[Fat Tony]

Vitali is called a quitter for not finishing a fight he was dominating due to a legit injury.

Suge why dont you call Brewster a quitter for quitting on his stool after he knew he couldnt win?A jab was all it took to break his spirit.

Maybe Lacy would be better off today if he'd quit against Tsypko. :huh