Name the best challenger these champions failed to meet

[janitor]

John L Sullivan

(If Peter Jackson then name a number 2 choice)

Jim Corbett

(If Peter Jackson then name a number 2 choice)

Jim Jeffries

(If Jack Johnson then name a number 2 choice)

Jack Johnson

(If Sam Langford then name a number 2 choice)

Jack Dempsey

(If Harry Wills then name a number 2 choice)

Gene Tunney

Joe Louis

Ezzard Charles

Rocky Marciano

Floyd Patterson

Muhamad Ali

Larry Holmes

Michael Spinks

Mike Tyson

Evander Hollyfield

Lennox Lewis

[KTFO]

:rofl :rofl :rofl


This thread was so predictable.

[janitor]

:rofl :rofl :rofl


This thread was so predictable.

So who do you pick then?

[ChrisPontius]

Off the top of my head:

John L Sullivan

(If Peter Jackson then name a number 2 choice)

Jim Corbett

(If Peter Jackson then name a number 2 choice)

I don't know enough about this era.

Jim Jeffries

He should've fought Jack Johnson.

Jack Johnson

(If Sam Langford then name a number 2 choice)

Mcvey, Jeanette, Smith, anyone. Those white hopes were terrible including the one who finally beat him. Can't really blame Johnson for fighting them considering circumstances, but it does hurt his legacy.

Jack Dempsey

(If Harry Wills then name a number 2 choice)

Why is Wills not a legit mention? My impression is that Dempsey or his management wanted no part of Wills for a full 5 years. That must be the longest ducking job ever. Wasn't Wills supposed to get his shot if he won a certain fight, which he did and of course never received his shot? I think Rock Newman learnt a lot from Dempsey and his management.

Arguably Jack Renault and George Godfrey late in his Dempseys career. I think there's another that slips my mind. He did already beat a lot of contenders before his titleshot.

Gene Tunney

Arguably George Godfrey. He could've been a bit more active but i don't think you can blame that much for his choices, especially considering his reign was rather short. Heeney may not have been the best out there, but every champion takes an easy defense.

Joe Louis

You could argue for a few black challengers '46-'48, although he pretty much cleaned up the division before that. Elmer Ray and Lee Q Murray (padded record). But in fact he took on Jersey Joe Walcott in '46 who was ranked higher than the former two, and gave Walcott a well-deserved rematch after it, so there's no blame on Louis.

Ezzard Charles

Charles was pretty active and i don't think you can blame him for his choices of oppenents.

Rocky Marciano

He faced the #1 contender four times and the #2 contender once. Spotless reign.

Floyd Patterson

Many people will say Sonny Liston, but i disagree.
He lost to Johansson in mid '59, which was only a few months after Liston first beat a ranked contender (DeJohn). Perhaps he already signed to fight Johansson before Liston beat DeJohn.
Then has two more good fights with Johansson to determine who the best man is. After that he took one easy defense (T. McNeely) and he faced Liston after that. Realistically, he avoided Liston for little over a year. Not for 4 years as some people like to make out.

Muhamad Ali

George Foreman during the better part of '76 and 77.

Larry Holmes

Pinklon Thomas, Greg Page, Michael Dokes and Gerrie Coetzee. In addition to that, he failed to give very deserved rematches to Ken Norton, Tim Witherspoon, Mike Weaver and Carl Williams.

Michael Spinks

He dropped his belt to avoid Tucker and fight an unranked, coked up Cooney instead, so obviously Tony Tucker.

Mike Tyson

During his linear reign: no one really. Holyfield arguably, but he was next in line after Douglas and although i would've liked to see him fight Witherspoon, Witherspoon kind of got out of the picture after that first round KO loss.

In '96 he dropped his title to avoid the mandatory challenger, Lennox Lewis, though they did square off later.

Evander Hollyfield

No one really. The Lewis fight could have happened a year earlier, but i think it was politics and Don King delaying that one.

Lennox Lewis

You could argue Byrd in 2002 as he dropped a title, but i think this would've been a rather meaningless fight seeing how easily a similar fighter to Lewis (Wladimir Klitscho) beat Byrd.

After having dealt with Don King to get the Holyfield fight, King got some power which made Ruiz the mandatory. Lewis dropped the WBA belt because Ruiz at that point had not beaten a significant fighter since Tua layed him out in 17 seconds. Instead, he fought Grant who was perceived much more dangerous and had recently beaten Golota. If i remember correct, Grant was even a slight favorite going into that one.

[janitor]

Why is Wills not a legit mention? My impression is that Dempsey or his management wanted no part of Wills for a full 5 years.

Wills is such an obvious choice that I think it more usefull to discuss the second most deserving challenger that Dempsey never faced.

Where the No 1 shafted contender is a no brainer I have asked for another name.

[ChrisPontius]

I see, i thought it had something to do with the color line, since you only mentioned it for the early champions. Who do you think Dempsey should've fought other than Wills?

[janitor]

I see, i thought it had something to do with the color line, since you only mentioned it for the early champions. Who do you think Dempsey should've fought other than Wills?

I think that Harry Greb did enough to deserve a shot at the title. He beat most of the fighters Dempsey defended his title against and tried to get a fight with Wills to establish himself as the No1 challenger.

Some sources suggest that Dempseys managment saw Godfrey as a big risk though Godfrey was never quite consistent enough to position himself as the No1 challenger.

The big what if is Godfrey fighting Wills to determine which of them was the outstanding challenger for Dempseys title. Godfreys managment tried to arrange such a fight.

[scartissue]

I believe Gene Tunney avoided Jack Sharkey. Sharkey had beaten George Godfrey, Harry Wills, Jimmy Maloney and had that crazy fight with Dempsey which splashed him across the media despite the loss. Drawing with Heeney and then Tunney choosing Heeney as the challenger was grasping for a life preserver because Sharkey was the box office attraction at this time, not Heeney. I believe it would have been a great fight.

If there was anyone Joe Louis could have fought and didn't, I think it would have been Jimmy Bivins, primarily because he held the duration title while Louis was in the service. But this is thin since Louis fought everyone.

If there was anyone Marciano didn't fight (and I won't use the word 'avoided' with Marciano) it would have been Nino Valdez. Beat Charles the year before Marciano's 2 fights with Ezzard and should have been given the shot instead of Don Cockell. And BTW, he stopped Cockell in 3 after Don's fight with the Rock.

Just like I believe Al Weill was the guy who avoided Valdez, I believe it was Cus D'Amato who avoided Zora Folley. How long was he number 1 contender or at least top three? I think throughout the '56-'62 era in which Patterson held the title.

Scartissue

[janitor]

I believe Gene Tunney avoided Jack Sharkey. Sharkey had beaten George Godfrey, Harry Wills, Jimmy Maloney and had that crazy fight with Dempsey which splashed him across the media despite the loss. Drawing with Heeney and then Tunney choosing Heeney as the challenger was grasping for a life preserver because Sharkey was the box office attraction at this time, not Heeney. I believe it would have been a great fight.


If the general forum had existed at this time a lot of people would have been saying that he should have fought Jack Sharkey or Johny Risko instead of Tom Heeney. That seems to have been the opinion on the ground at the time.

It should be noted however that Heeney did win a tournament to get the title shot.

[JohnThomas1]

Larry Holmes



Super Greg Page!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Robbi]

Super Greg Page!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

JT. Quick question. Who has been the best heavyweight since Ali retired in 1978?.

[ChrisPontius]

I believe Gene Tunney avoided Jack Sharkey. Sharkey had beaten George Godfrey, Harry Wills, Jimmy Maloney and had that crazy fight with Dempsey which splashed him across the media despite the loss. Drawing with Heeney and then Tunney choosing Heeney as the challenger was grasping for a life preserver because Sharkey was the box office attraction at this time, not Heeney. I believe it would have been a great fight.



Dempsey did knock out Sharkey to get his shot against Tunney. I think this put Sharkey a bit down as worthy challenger for the moment.

[JohnThomas1]

JT. Quick question. Who has been the best heavyweight since Ali retired in 1978?.

Super Greg, and barring him definitely Lennox Lewis

;)

[Robbi]

Super Greg, and barring him definitely Lennox Lewis

;)

Holmes would have smoked Page. Late TKO.

[Dempsey1238]

Holmes does not have a "Super" in his name. We all know the winner would have to be Super to be able to beat Holmes lol.

[janitor]

Dempsey did knock out Sharkey to get his shot against Tunney. I think this put Sharkey a bit down as worthy challenger for the moment.

It is a complicated question.

While everybody knew full well that Sharkey was the best available challenger out there he might not have had the best claim to a title shot on paper.

[scartissue]

Dempsey did knock out Sharkey to get his shot against Tunney. I think this put Sharkey a bit down as worthy challenger for the moment.


I really don't think it hurt his status as much as enhance it. He was winning the fight, had Dempsey hurt bad in the 1st and the controversial ending as well as Dempsey's remarks after the fight really had national attention. Not to mention Sharkey's crazy antics which kept him on the sports pages. Sharkey was boxoffice and I really think Tunney-Sharkey would have been a natural.

Scartissue

[Sam Dixon]

It is a complicated question.

While everybody knew full well that Sharkey was the best available challenger out there he might not have had the best claim to a title shot on paper.

Speaking of "on paper", Tunney actually signed to meet Jack Sharkey, and they had an agreement to meet each other in MSG on Feb 5th of 1926, but Tunney had a change of plans for whatever reason(s), and he ended up being ridiculed and/or pressured some by the NYSAC, the press, as well as Sharkey himself for not going through with the fight and honouring the agreement.

[janitor]

Speaking of "on paper", Tunney actually signed to meet Jack Sharkey, and they had an agreement to meet each other in MSG on Feb 5th of 1926, but Tunney had a change of plans for whatever reason(s), and he ended up being ridiculed and/or pressured some by the NYSAC, the press, as well as Sharkey himself for not going through with the fight and honouring the agreement.

Didn't know that. Thanks for the info.

[Sam Dixon]

No problem, Janitor.

[TIGEREDGE]

in lennox lewis case it was ike ibeabuchi but you can't blame him for that
Mike tyson never got to fight tim witherspoon but that was not his problem

[TIGEREDGE]

terrible tim could of give tyson some great problems. he had potential

[JohnThomas1]

Holmes does not have a "Super" in his name. We all know the winner would have to be Super to be able to beat Holmes lol.

Zactly!!!

[janitor]

Who do people think is the most deserving challenger that Joe Louis failed to meet?

My vote would go to Jimmy Bivins.

[scartissue]

Who do people think is the most deserving challenger that Joe Louis failed to meet?

My vote would go to Jimmy Bivins.

I second the motion.

Scartissue

[Bummy Davis]

I really don't think it hurt his status as much as enhance it. He was winning the fight, had Dempsey hurt bad in the 1st and the controversial ending as well as Dempsey's remarks after the fight really had national attention. Not to mention Sharkey's crazy antics which kept him on the sports pages. Sharkey was boxoffice and I really think Tunney-Sharkey would have been a natural.

Scartissue

Heenan drew with Sharkey and Uzcudun to get the title shot vs Tunney for a fresh face,Sharkey being Ko'd by Dempsey still dropped his standing

[Bummy Davis]

I believe Gene Tunney avoided Jack Sharkey. Sharkey had beaten George Godfrey, Harry Wills, Jimmy Maloney and had that crazy fight with Dempsey which splashed him across the media despite the loss. Drawing with Heeney and then Tunney choosing Heeney as the challenger was grasping for a life preserver because Sharkey was the box office attraction at this time, not Heeney. I believe it would have been a great fight.

If there was anyone Joe Louis could have fought and didn't, I think it would have been Jimmy Bivins, primarily because he held the duration title while Louis was in the service. But this is thin since Louis fought everyone.

If there was anyone Marciano didn't fight (and I won't use the word 'avoided' with Marciano) it would have been Nino Valdez. Beat Charles the year before Marciano's 2 fights with Ezzard and should have been given the shot instead of Don Cockell. And BTW, he stopped Cockell in 3 after Don's fight with the Rock.

Just like I believe Al Weill was the guy who avoided Valdez, I believe it was Cus D'Amato who avoided Zora Folley. How long was he number 1 contender or at least top three? I think throughout the '56-'62 era in which Patterson held the title.

Scartissue

Valdez did beat Charles in a close one but was coming off 4 losses in 53 to Baker(who was Ko'd by Moore and Satterfield in 1) Harold Johnson(who was KO'd by Moore)Billy Gilliam(who Charles beat in his next fight) and Archie Moore beat him also. Charles had a spectacular 2RD ko over Satterfield (who KO'd Baker(Valdez conqueror) and KO'd Coley Wallace in 8rds to jump ahead of Valdez(who won a disputed decision over Archie McBride) Valdez was supposed to get a shot but lost to Archie Moore again for elimination and then was dropped and dominated by Satterfield. I think there may have been a generous window of opportunity for Valdez in 54 but he was overshadowed by more deserving opponents because of his 4 losses in 53 and 2 in 1955. Marciano's record was spotless and the only easy defence was the nose tester vs Cockell but the follow up was vs the feared and well deserved Archie Moore

[ChrisPontius]

Charles had a spectacular 2RD ko over Satterfield (who KO'd Baker(Valdez conqueror)

I had never seen this fight untill it recently appeared on YouTube. Great fight and one hell of a one-punch left hook knockout that layed Satterfield out cold.

[OLD FOGEY]

Who do people think is the most deserving challenger that Joe Louis failed to meet?

My vote would go to Jimmy Bivins.

Yes, but Louis was in the service and I think therefore I would pass on Bivins and say Elmer Ray. Louis could conceivably have fought him in 1946 or 1947.

[janitor]

Yes, but Louis was in the service and I think therefore I would pass on Bivins and say Elmer Ray. Louis could conceivably have fought him in 1946 or 1947.

We are not acusing people of ducking or aportioning bame here. Just naming the most deserving challenger they did not fight for whatever reason.

[OLD FOGEY]

We are not acusing people of ducking or aportioning bame here. Just naming the most deserving challenger they did not fight for whatever reason.

I would still go with Ray. Tough call, though.

A point of clarification--I was not even implying ducking--my point was just that as Louis was not actually fighting, the years in which Bivins was the top man are in a kind of unique limbo as far as boxing history is concerned. He was just coming into his own when Louis went into the service and defeats in 1946 dropped him from the top position.

[TBooze]

John L Sullivan/Peter Jackson

Jim Corbett/Joe Goddard

(If Peter Jackson then name a number 2 choice)

Jim Jeffries/Denver Ed Martin(#2)

(If Jack Johnson then name a number 2 choice)

Jack Johnson/Sam McVey(#2)

(If Sam Langford then name a number 2 choice)

Jack Dempsey/Kid Norfolk(#2)

(If Harry Wills then name a number 2 choice)

Gene Tunney/George Godfrey

Joe Louis/Tiger Jack Fox

Ezzard Charles/Rocky Marciano

Rocky Marciano/Nino Valdez

Floyd Patterson/Zora Foley

Muhammad Ali/Eddie Manchen?:?

Larry Holmes/Pinklon Thomas

Michael Spinks/Tony Tucker

Mike Tyson/Evander Holyfield

Evander Holyfield/Lennox Lewis

Lennox Lewis/Wlad Klitschko

[mcvey]

I think that Harry Greb did enough to deserve a shot at the title. He beat most of the fighters Dempsey defended his title against and tried to get a fight with Wills to establish himself as the No1 challenger.

Some sources suggest that Dempseys managment saw Godfrey as a big risk though Godfrey was never quite consistent enough to position himself as the No1 challenger.

The big what if is Godfrey fighting Wills to determine which of them was the outstanding challenger for Dempseys title. Godfreys managment tried to arrange such a fight.
That would have been an interesting fight,Dempsey once asked Greb to train himduring his later years ,but the money wasnt enough,and as Harry said"besides I want to fight you myself",Jack replied , "no one would pay to see it".I would!

[scartissue]

Valdez did beat Charles in a close one but was coming off 4 losses in 53 to Baker(who was Ko'd by Moore and Satterfield in 1) Harold Johnson(who was KO'd by Moore)Billy Gilliam(who Charles beat in his next fight) and Archie Moore beat him also. Charles had a spectacular 2RD ko over Satterfield (who KO'd Baker(Valdez conqueror) and KO'd Coley Wallace in 8rds to jump ahead of Valdez(who won a disputed decision over Archie McBride) Valdez was supposed to get a shot but lost to Archie Moore again for elimination and then was dropped and dominated by Satterfield. I think there may have been a generous window of opportunity for Valdez in 54 but he was overshadowed by more deserving opponents because of his 4 losses in 53 and 2 in 1955. Marciano's record was spotless and the only easy defence was the nose tester vs Cockell but the follow up was vs the feared and well deserved Archie Moore

Bummy, I don't know. Maybe you're right but looking over the year end ratings of '53 and '54, Valdez was the #1 contender in both instances. We can wish this away but it certainly looks like he was sidestepped in lieu of the smaller Charles. Valdez was a big heavy for the 1950s and I think Al Weill was being prudent in giving him a wide berth. I don't believe Rocky had anything to do with it, I believe he'd take on a Mack truck. Also, for the record, I believe he'd take Valdez, but I do believe he was avoided by Marciano's shrewd manager.

Scartissue

[Dempsey1238]

First off Charles was ranked number 1 when he fought Marciano. Valez beat Charles and got the number 1 ranking yes. But in his next fight Valez put on a poor showing, and Charles got back to back wins over ranked contenders Wallace and Shatterfiled, because of this Valez went to number 3, and Charles jump back up to number 1 for the title shot.

[scartissue]

Are you certain on that? I don't have ratings during the year to compare, only stats so I'm not as fluent on it as you. However, looking at their wins, Valdez had a very impressive KO over Euro champ Heinz Neuhas, who was rated higher than both Wallace and Satterfield. Also, Charles was inactive for about 5-6 months leading up to the title shot. Anyways, I believe even if Charles was rated number 7, he would have got the title shot over Valdez. I saw Valdez' fight with Hurricane Jackson and he looked like a monster in there the way he annhilated Jackson. I think this is the reason Weill steered Rocky clear of Nino. I wll say this about the Cuban. This was about the best time of his career these 2 years because he was very erratic after this and before.

Scartissue

[Titan1]

Holmes would have smoked Page. Late TKO.

Ain't happening.Page had a good chin.