A Discplined Riddick Bowe...

[Nigel_Benn]

How great could he have become? Would he have Beat Tyson?

[gregor]

Depends what you mean by "disciplined". To have a chance against Tyson, Bowe would need not only to be in shape, but also improve his defence, and for that he would need a lot more discipline.

I think Bowe is overrated since he looked great against B-level fighters, but otherwise Golota fight (although, I admit, it is past prime Bowe) is a good indication what could've happened if Bowe fought big, talented opponent. Holy does not exactly count, mostly because he fought wrong fight the first time.

[lefthook31]

Bowe never reached his full potential. Eddie Futch said Bowe could have been one of the top heavyweights of all time with all his skills. In my opinon he would have given even a prime Tyson a hell of a fight, because he had good infighting skills, he was very big, and had a good mean streak in him when he was dialed in.
Its hard to say it was the real Bowe in the Golota fights, because he really started to lose his conditioning after the first Holyfield fight. When he wasnt in condition, he was not a very good fighter, not using his jab, and looping his punches. He seemed to pull it all back together for the Gonzalez fight, but then lost interest again. I would say Bowe was probably one if not the biggest waste of talent in heavyweight history. He was always known to be very lazy in the gym, in fact he sparred with Evander Holyfield many times before the title fight, and Holy always handled him, so he felt he would have no problem defending against him.

[Charles White]

He could have been an atg imho. And yes, he would have beat Tyson.

[the-demon]

He could have been an atg imho. And yes, he would have beat Tyson.

bowe was a good fighter but a level below our lennox...

[Charles White]

bowe was a good fighter but a level below our lennox...Depends. In 1992 I believe that Lewis wasn't fully developed and with Bowe's awesome infighting capabilities, I see a knockout of Lennox as more than a possibility.

[mr. magoo]

I think that had Riddick Bowe stayed focussed he might have beaten Andrew Golata without the aid of a disqualification, perhaps even gone on to beating some of the other top rated heavys of the late 90's, ie, Grant, Briggs, Byrd, Klitschko, Tua, etc. I personally would never have favored him to beat Lennox Lewis though.

As it stands, Bowe's record is very good. He was never KO'd and lost only once to an all time great whom he beat twice. Additionally, he was a true lineal champion for a brief period and even after he lost the title may very well have been the best heavy in the division from maybe 1994-1996. He has two very good wins over Evander Holyfield, and for whatever its worth, defeated some halfway respectable fighters in Coetzer, Seldon, Gonzalez, Hide, Donald, and Cooper along with aging but active versions of Tubbs, Dokes,Biggs, and Thomas.

Riddick Bowe, probably does not deserve to be rated top 10, due to his missing too many big fights during his era, ie, Lewis, Tyson, Moorer, Foreman, etc.. But he comes close based on the other reasons that I've listed.

[lefthook31]

bowe was a good fighter but a level below our lennox...
Personally I think the best Bowe beats any version of Lennox Lewis. He had that extra intangible, that Lennox never developed, and could easily engage a fighter who liked to operate from the outside into a full slugging match and inside fight when he used his jab properly. He was so big and savvy on the inside, Lewis would have had a hard time holding on the inside.

[ripcity]

With better discplin and better managment Bowe would have been an all time great.

[mr. magoo]

Personally I think the best Bowe beats any version of Lennox Lewis. He had that extra intangible, that Lennox never developed, and could easily engage a fighter who liked to operate from the outside into a full slugging match and inside fight when he used his jab properly. He was so big and savvy on the inside, Lewis would have had a hard time holding on the inside.


I disagree,

Sure its possible that a peak Bowe might have gotten the better of a pre-Steward Lewis, but even then I'm not so sure. Riddick lost handely to Lewis in the amateurs and continued to struggle with men who had a strait jab and good generalship throughout his career. The Lewis who was utterly anialating men like Andrew Golata, Shanon Briggs, Michael Grant, etc, would have to be favored against Riddick Bowe.

[Russell]

I disagree,

Sure its possible that a peak Bowe might have gotten the better of a pre-Steward Lewis, but even then I'm not so sure. Riddick lost handely to Lewis in the amateurs and continued to struggle with men who had a strait jab and good generalship throughout his career. The Lewis who was utterly anialating men like Andrew Golata, Shanon Briggs, Michael Grant, etc, would have to be favored against Riddick Bowe.

And they both lose to Gonzalez in the amateurs.

What's the point?

[godking]

Bowe never reached his full potential. Eddie Futch said Bowe could have been one of the top heavyweights of all time with all his skills. In my opinon he would have given even a prime Tyson a hell of a fight, because he had good infighting skills, he was very big, and had a good mean streak in him when he was dialed in.
Its hard to say it was the real Bowe in the Golota fights, because he really started to lose his conditioning after the first Holyfield fight. When he wasnt in condition, he was not a very good fighter, not using his jab, and looping his punches. He seemed to pull it all back together for the Gonzalez fight, but then lost interest again. I would say Bowe was probably one if not the biggest waste of talent in heavyweight history. He was always known to be very lazy in the gym, in fact he sparred with Evander Holyfield many times before the title fight, and Holy always handled him, so he felt he would have no problem defending against him.
With his lack of defense even at his best Bowe would be in Hell against Tyson.


Tyson had trouble with guys who PREVENTED him from landing on them not guys who tried to brawl with him. Bowes penchant to brawl and lack of defense and footwork would play right in Tysons hands.

[PowerPuncher]

A disciplined Bowe gets Ko'd by Lewis inside of 3, his defense is poor and even if his chin is good it won't stand up to the speed/power of a Lennox or Prime Tyson, neither does he have huge power, relentless workrate or blazing speed. Lets not forget outside of Holyfield, Bowe never faced any other top level opperators, avoiding the best, the biggest punchers, in the division during his short reign and after his reign too. Lets also forget when someone jabbed Bowe they gave him fits - Golota, Tubbs, Holyfield 2

[godking]

Personally I think the best Bowe beats any version of Lennox Lewis. He had that extra intangible, that Lennox never developed, and could easily engage a fighter who liked to operate from the outside into a full slugging match and inside fight when he used his jab properly. He was so big and savvy on the inside, Lewis would have had a hard time holding on the inside.What intanglibles no defense ? inability to handle a jab ? poor footwork ?

The only things Bowe has over Lewis are Chin and infighting ability guys who get their ass kicked by Golota TWICE a lesser brainless version of Lewis are not going to beat the best Lewis.

Golota was quickly disposed of by every Elite ATG HW he faced only one elite HW got his ass kicked twice against Golota only to win through Golotas own stupidity.

[mr. magoo]

And they both lose to Gonzalez in the amateurs.

What's the point?


Pay particular attention to the sentence that followed:


Riddick lost handely to Lewis in the amateurs and continued to struggle with men who had a strait jab and good generalship throughout his career.

[lefthook31]

I disagree,

Sure its possible that a peak Bowe might have gotten the better of a pre-Steward Lewis, but even then I'm not so sure. Riddick lost handely to Lewis in the amateurs and continued to struggle with men who had a strait jab and good generalship throughout his career. The Lewis who was utterly anialating men like Andrew Golata, Shanon Briggs, Michael Grant, etc, would have to be favored against Riddick Bowe.

Bowe was inconsistent mainly due to his laziness, but I would suspect a fight with Lewis would have had his attention just like the Gonzalez fight, which turned out to be the last we saw of the "best" Bowe.
You cant compare guys like Briggs, Golota and Grant to a prime Bowe. Like Bowe, Lewis would have never approached a fight with Bowe in the same manner he did those other guys. He almost got knocked out by Briggs for being foolish.
Lewis probably felt he would always be able to beat Bowe, but he would be a fool not to have recognized how he improved in the pro ranks. Golota was a mental case, Grant was inexperienced, and Briggs was nothing special, so Lennox knew he could take it right to them. It would have been a different fight with someone on his level, ie the Holyfield fights. We even saw a cautious Lewis in the Tyson fight. There was no reason for that fight to go 8 rounds.

[godking]

Bowe was inconsistent mainly due to his laziness, but I would suspect a fight with Lewis would have had his attention just like the Gonzalez fight, which turned out to be the last we saw of the "best" Bowe.
You cant compare guys like Briggs, Golota and Grant to a prime Bowe. Like Bowe, Lewis would have never approached a fight with Bowe in the same manner he did those other guys. He almost got knocked out by Briggs for being foolish.
Lewis probably felt he would always be able to beat Bowe, but he would be a fool not to have recognized how he improved in the pro ranks. Golota was a mental case, Grant was inexperienced, and Briggs was nothing special, so Lennox knew he could take it right to them. It would have been a different fight with someone on his level, ie the Holyfield fights. We even saw a cautious Lewis in the Tyson fight. There was no reason for that fight to go 8 rounds.
Bowe at his best or worst had no defense could not handle a jab and had poor footwork.

Bowe gets destroyed within 5 against the best Lewis.

A brawl happy HW with no real defense would get slaughtered against Lewis.

Even at his best Bowe had huge holes .

[Charles White]

Personally I think the best Bowe beats any version of Lennox Lewis. He had that extra intangible, that Lennox never developed, and could easily engage a fighter who liked to operate from the outside into a full slugging match and inside fight when he used his jab properly. He was so big and savvy on the inside, Lewis would have had a hard time holding on the inside.:yep:good

[godking]

:yep:goodI am asking agaan what ''intangibility'' did Bowe have a lack of defense ? poor footwork ? inability to handle a jab ?

[mr. magoo]

Bowe was inconsistent mainly due to his laziness, but I would suspect a fight with Lewis would have had his attention just like the Gonzalez fight, which turned out to be the last we saw of the "best" Bowe.
You cant compare guys like Briggs, Golota and Grant to a prime Bowe. Like Bowe, Lewis would have never approached a fight with Bowe in the same manner he did those other guys. He almost got knocked out by Briggs for being foolish.
Lewis probably felt he would always be able to beat Bowe, but he would be a fool not to have recognized how he improved in the pro ranks. Golota was a mental case, Grant was inexperienced, and Briggs was nothing special, so Lennox knew he could take it right to them. It would have been a different fight with someone on his level, ie the Holyfield fights. We even saw a cautious Lewis in the Tyson fight. There was no reason for that fight to go 8 rounds.


Bowe simply did not have the right style nor the tools needed to beat a fighter like Lennox Lewis. I'm not a big fan of playing connect the dots games, but I think its perfectly valid to use the Tubbs, Golata and Holyfield fights as comparisons. Bowe flat out struggled with men who could utilize the jab and box reasonable well. Now, factor in Lewis's added feature benefits such as size, power, etc, and I'd say you have a pretty nasty cocktail for an often Lazy fighter who wasn't even competitive against Lewis in the olympics....

[Charles White]

I am asking agaan what ''intangibility'' did Bowe have a lack of defense ? poor footwork ? inability to handle a jab ?His defense wasn't great, but he made up for it with a cast iron chin and will to fight. Footwork was average, but that is to be expected for a man so large. He handled the jab quite well, and threw an excellent one himself.

[lefthook31]

Bowe at his best or worst had no defense could not handle a jab and had poor footwork.

Bowe gets destroyed within 5 against the best Lewis.

A brawl happy HW with no real defense would get slaughtered against Lewis.

Even at his best Bowe had huge holes .

This is simply not true. He was one of the more exciting big heavyweights. I dont think he was a brawler more than he was a real fighter and went for the kill when he saw his chances, unlike Lewis who chose to take the safest route against the better fighters. At his best, he had one of the best jabs, and used it well to get inside and engage fighters. I wouldnt say he had a lack of defense either. He would equal Lewis at anytime in the jab department, could always fight better on the inside and talk about poor footwork, if Lewis didnt have his way on the outside, and the fight became physical he looked like he was on roller skates in a ice rink.
I will say, he showed a lot of inconsistency and laziness, which was evident primarily after winning the title and going to Africa.
I love how everyone uses the Olympics example. Bowe was soundly beaten by Gonzalez in the Olympics, and beat him senseless in the pros. At that time Gonzalez was undefeated and untested, but Lewis was also not even close to his best at the time their fight was proposed.

[lefthook31]

Bowe simply did not have the right style nor the tools needed to beat a fighter like Lennox Lewis. I'm not a big fan of playing connect the dots games, but I think its perfectly valid to use the Tubbs, Golata and Holyfield fights as comparisons. Bowe flat out struggled with men who could utilize the jab and box reasonable well. Now, factor in Lewis's added feature benefits such as size, power, etc, and I'd say you have a pretty nasty cocktail for an often Lazy fighter who wasn't even competitive against Lewis in the olympics....
He definitely had the tools, he was equally as tall both 6'5, had equal power, a better jab and footwork and could fight very well on the inside. Did he struggle against Holyfield? The fights were competitive buth he won two fights and came razor close in the second. Using your selective comparisons you could also say Lewis was susceptible to being knocked out against taller fighters with good power and good chins, he was knocked out by single punches from Mcall and Rahman, staggered by Bruno, and Briggs. :good

[mr. magoo]

He definitely had the tools, he was equally as tall both 6'5, had equal power, a better jab and footwork and could fight very well on the inside. Did he struggle against Holyfield? The fights were competitive buth he won two fights and came razor close in the second. Using your selective comparisons you could also say Lewis was susceptible to being knocked out against taller fighters with good power and good chins, he was knocked out by single punches from Mcall and Rahman, staggered by Bruno, and Briggs. :good


Okay, I'll give a peak Bowe who fought Holyfield a puncher's chance against the pre-Steward Lewis who fought McCall, but that's about it...

[lefthook31]

Okay, I'll give a peak Bowe who fought Holyfield a puncher's chance against the pre-Steward Lewis who fought McCall, but that's about it...
Watch Bowe Gonzalez, and than tell me he would only have a punchers chance.

[mr. magoo]

Watch Bowe Gonzalez, and than tell me he would only have a punchers chance.

It was a good performance, yes. But, I also saw a 40 year old Tim Witherspoon knock Gonzalez from pillar to post, not long after Bowe did it. Gonzalez also took forever trying to put away a shot Renaldo Snipes on the undercard of Bowe vs Holyfield II. Snipes was in trouble all night long in that fight, but Jorge couldn't finish him.

Gonzalez was looking rather menacing on paper, and the fact that he had beaten both Bowe and Lewis in the amateurs rang an even louder bell. The truth however, was that he never materialized as a pro, and in fact retired as more or less a journeyman. I am standing by my statement that I would give Bowe a puncher's chance against an unsuspecting or careless Lewis. But, if Lennox shows up prepared and looking like he did in the Ruddock, Golata, Grant, and Briggs fights, Bowe is hands down losing.....

[ChrisPontius]

It was a good performance, yes. But, I also saw a 40 year old Tim Witherspoon knock Gonzalez from pillar to post, not long after Bowe did it. Gonzalez also took forever trying to put away a shot Renaldo Snipes on the undercard of Bowe vs Holyfield II. Snipes was in trouble all night long in that fight, but Jorge couldn't finish him.

Gonzalez was looking rather menacing on paper, and the fact that he had beaten both Bowe and Lewis in the amateurs rang an even louder bell. The truth however, was that he never materialized as a pro, and in fact retired as more or less a journeyman. I am standing by my statement that I would give Bowe a puncher's chance against an unsuspecting or careless Lewis. But, if Lennox shows up prepared and looking like he did in the Ruddock, Golata, Grant, and Briggs fights, Bowe is hands down losing.....

Agreed. This would be Lewis' fight to lose.

[crippet]

Bowe had a fantastic defence.
When supposed to fight Lewis, he managed to stop Lewis laying a glove on him.
That was probably the closest he could come to a victory against Lewis and he knew it.

If Bowe was a European fighter, he would be rated somewhat similarly to Frank Bruno.

Bowe is the no 1 pound for pound apologists fighter - Never in the history of boxing has a fighter who has done so little been credited with the potential of being able to do so much..... Most boxers when suffering a Golota type fight are found out, but not Riddick, no, Riddick was past his prime, he still couldof/shouldof/wouldof according to the apologists......Well he well he didn't because he wouldn't because he couldn't!!!

Bowe was what he was and that was all he could become - Starting a thread postulating 'a more disciplined Bowe' would be similer to starting a 'If Lennox Lewis had 3 arms would he have beaten Ali' thread.

Riddick Bowverated

[Bokaj]

Bowe had a fantastic defence.
When supposed to fight Lewis, he managed to stop Lewis laying a glove on him.
That was probably the closest he could come to a victory against Lewis and he knew it.

If Bowe was a European fighter, he would be rated somewhat similarly to Frank Bruno.

Bowe is the no 1 pound for pound apologists fighter - Never in the history of boxing has a fighter who has done so little been credited with the potential of being able to do so much..... Most boxers when suffering a Golota type fight are found out, but not Riddick, no, Riddick was past his prime, he still couldof/shouldof/wouldof according to the apologists......Well he well he didn't because he wouldn't because he couldn't!!!

Bowe was what he was and that was all he could become - Starting a thread postulating 'a more disciplined Bowe' would be similer to starting a 'If Lennox Lewis had 3 arms would he have beaten Ali' thread.

Riddick Bowverated

You have a point. The two Golota fights came directly after him being the first to KO Holyfield, and all of sudden he is past it when he performs badly in both. I could have given him somewhat of a pass in the first fight (where he was obviously underprepared), but not for the second.

He did look great in the first fight against Holyfield especially, but it's not like has a stacked a resume otherwise. Old version of Thomas, Biggs, Dokes and Tubbs are among the best names, and Tubbs gave him problems.

[Bokaj]

I think the high regard many have for Bowe's potential almost rests as much on Futch's praise of him as of what he actually did in the ring. It is reasonable, though, that Futchs's words carry some weight.

[lefthook31]

I think the high regard many have for Bowe's potential almost rests as much on Futch's praise of him as of what he actually did in the ring. It is reasonable, though, that Futchs's words carry some weight.

Yes Futch didnt mess with anyone who wasnt worth it, thats why he kept giving Bowe so many chances. Going back to the Golota fights, I think it was evident as early as the second Holyfield fight that Riddick was on the decline. His weight gains and sloppy inconsistent performances had Futch constantly threatening not to return to Bowes corner. If you can appreciate all aspects of a complete fighter, it was quite obvious Bowe had all the physical tools to be something special, and thats why Futch believed Bowe had more talent than anyone he had worked with.
I believe the purpose of this thread was peoples thoughts on how far the best version of Bowe could have gone in the division. While Ill agree he never lived up to all the hype, he had more talent in his pinky finger than Frank Bruno.

[lefthook31]

It was a good performance, yes. But, I also saw a 40 year old Tim Witherspoon knock Gonzalez from pillar to post, not long after Bowe did it. Gonzalez also took forever trying to put away a shot Renaldo Snipes on the undercard of Bowe vs Holyfield II. Snipes was in trouble all night long in that fight, but Jorge couldn't finish him.

Gonzalez was looking rather menacing on paper, and the fact that he had beaten both Bowe and Lewis in the amateurs rang an even louder bell. The truth however, was that he never materialized as a pro, and in fact retired as more or less a journeyman. I am standing by my statement that I would give Bowe a puncher's chance against an unsuspecting or careless Lewis. But, if Lennox shows up prepared and looking like he did in the Ruddock, Golata, Grant, and Briggs fights, Bowe is hands down losing.....
Yeah its kind of like Razor Ruddock getting knocked out by Lennox Lewis after getting knocked from pillar to post by Tyson in two consecutive fights and then never doing anything else in the division and retiring as more or less the guy who took Tysons best, and was knocked out by Lewis and Morrison before retiring. Takes a little shine off of that win as well doesnt it? Your selective recognition of fighters is almost comical. Gonzalez wasnt anything special, but Bowe ruined him like Tyson ruined Ruddock.

[Bokaj]

I believe the purpose of this thread was peoples thoughts on how far the best version of Bowe could have gone in the division. While Ill agree he never lived up to all the hype, he had more talent in his pinky finger than Frank Bruno.

Yeah, that sounds about correct.

[mr. magoo]

Yeah its kind of like Razor Ruddock getting knocked out by Lennox Lewis after getting knocked from pillar to post by Tyson in two consecutive fights and then never doing anything else in the division and retiring as more or less the guy who took Tysons best, and was knocked out by Lewis and Morrison before retiring. Takes a little shine off of that win as well doesnt it? Your selective recognition of fighters is almost comical. Gonzalez wasnt anything special, but Bowe ruined him like Tyson ruined Ruddock.


I don't buy this crap about Ruddock being ruined by Tyson nor Gonzalez being ruined by Bowe. Is this really an issue of my selective reasoning, or is it more of a matter of you needing an explanation to justify why other fighters looked better in dispatching common foes? Jorge Luis Gonzalez was a big man with decent ability, but he was nothing like Lennox Lews. Therefore, I'm not sure why you brought up the comparison to begin with. To recap, Lewis had a better jab, better footwork, slightly better defense, and greater punching power. Bowe may have had the better chin, but I say that with no real conviction, given that he never really tested his chin against the division's best punchers. Hell, Herbie Hide had him out on his feet, Holyfield decked him, and Golata battered him pillar to post. Lewis may have been Ko'd by McCall, but he also took big shots from Frank Bruno, Ray Mercer, Vitali Klitschko and a number of others.


Again, I'm not saying Bowe has no chance, but comparing their styles and track record, Lewis needs to be the favorite here.

P.S. I think its telling that Rock Newman went through such great lengths to keep Bowe and Lewis from getting in the same ring. Even to the extent of throwing a title in the garbage and passing up a payday that would have likely exceded $20,000,000, to instead fight Michael Dokes in New York city for the cost of a fart.

[lefthook31]

I don't buy this crap about Ruddock being ruined by Tyson nor Gonzalez being ruined by Bowe. Is this really an issue of my selective reasoning, or is it more of a matter of you needing an explanation to justify why other fighters looked better in dispatching common foes? Jorge Luis Gonzalez was a big man with decent ability, but he was nothing like Lennox Lews. Therefore, I'm not sure why you brought up the comparison to begin with. To recap, Lewis had a better jab, better footwork, slightly better defense, and greater punching power. Bowe may have had the better chin, but I say that with no real conviction, given that he never really tested his chin against the division's best punchers. Hell, Herbie Hide had him out on his feet, Holyfield decked him, and Golata battered him pillar to post. Lewis may have been Ko'd by McCall, but he also took big shots from Frank Bruno, Ray Mercer, Vitali Klitschko and a number of others.


Again, I'm not saying Bowe has no chance, but comparing their styles and track record, Lewis needs to be the favorite here.

P.S. I think its telling that Rock Newman went through such great lengths to keep Bowe and Lewis from getting in the same ring. Even to the extent of throwing a title in the garbage and passing up a payday that would have likely exceded $20,000,000, to instead fight Michael Dokes in New York city for the cost of a fart.
If you dont buy it thats fine. Thats your opinion. Given the fact that boxing is a sport where mental strength has such a significance, it is in fact a very real phenomana of the game. Many fighters have never recovered from beatings, and Im not comparing Gonzalez to Lennox Lewis, Im comparing Ruddocks accomplishments and Gonzalez's accomplishments after their severe beatings. It was clear both fighters were never the same. Gonzalez was Ko'd by guys with no power at all, after taking one of the most horrendous beatings Ive ever seen, and Bowe was not a small man.
As far as Bowe and Lewis, yes that fight should have happened, but do you really think Bowe told his greedy manager to avoid Lewis at all costs? Or do you think Newman wanted the path of least resistance for the most money with a possible Lewis fight down the line? Look how rich Frank ****** got with Joe Calzahge and Ricky Hatton...

[mr. magoo]

=lefthook31;3858520]If you dont buy it thats fine. Thats your opinion. Given the fact that boxing is a sport where mental strength has such a significance, it is in fact a very real phenomana of the game. Many fighters have never recovered from beatings,


I agree, but how do we know when and to whom this phenomena occurs? Men like Joe Walcott, Ezzard Charles, and many others took numerous beatings before reaching their optimal best. Are we to understand that they were both shot by the time they won the world titles? Now, I agree that there definately some men who have been ruined by a single performance. I personally think that Meldrick Taylor's career took a real plunge after his fight with Chavez, but I don't know if that's what happened to Ruddock and Gonzalez. I just don't think they were that good to begin with.


and Im not comparing Gonzalez to Lennox Lewis, Im comparing Ruddocks accomplishments and Gonzalez's accomplishments after their severe beatings. It was clear both fighters were never the same. Gonzalez was Ko'd by guys with no power at all, after taking one of the most horrendous beatings Ive ever seen, and Bowe was not a small man.

fair enough.

As far as Bowe and Lewis, yes that fight should have happened, but do you really think Bowe told his greedy manager to avoid Lewis at all costs? Or do you think Newman wanted the path of least resistance for the most money with a possible Lewis fight down the line? Look how rich Frank ****** got with Joe Calzahge and Ricky Hatton...

No, I do not think Bowe told his manager to avoid Lewis. I do however question weather or not his team wanted him in the same ring though. Frankly, I think the Ruddock fight scared some people, but who knows.


Anyway, I give Bowe a puncher's chance in this fight, but favor Lewis. I don't feel that this is an unreasonable position.

[lefthook31]

I agree, but how do we know when and to whom this phenomena occurs? Men like Joe Walcott, Ezzard Charles, and many others took numerous beatings before reaching their optimal best. Are we to understand that they were both shot by the time they won the world titles? Now, I agree that there definately some men who have been ruined by a single performance. I personally think that Meldrick Taylor's career took a real plunge after his fight with Chavez, but I don't know if that's what happened to Ruddock and Gonzalez. I just don't think they were that good to begin with.




fair enough.

As far as Bowe and Lewis, yes that fight should have happened, but do you really think Bowe told his greedy manager to avoid Lewis at all costs? Or do you think Newman wanted the path of least resistance for the most money with a possible Lewis fight down the line? Look how rich Frank ****** got with Joe Calzahge and Ricky Hatton...

No, I do not think Bowe told his manager to avoid Lewis. I do however question weather or not his team wanted him in the same ring though. Frankly, I think the Ruddock fight scared some people, but who knows.


Anyway, I give Bowe a puncher's chance in this fight, but favor Lewis. I don't feel that this is an unreasonable position.

How do you know? You know in future fights, when they lose consistently or get knocked out by guys they would have never lost to in previous fights. Meldrick Taylor is definitely a good example, so is David Reid after the beating he took from Trinidad, Francisco Bojado after the James Leija fight, and now Jeff Lacey who has barely survived against journeymen fighters after his beating from Calzahge, just to name a few.

[mrbassie]

He definitely had the tools, he was equally as tall both 6'5, had equal power, a better jab and footwork and could fight very well on the inside. Did he struggle against Holyfield? The fights were competitive buth he won two fights and came razor close in the second. Using your selective comparisons you could also say Lewis was susceptible to being knocked out against taller fighters with good power and good chins, he was knocked out by single punches from Mcall and Rahman, staggered by Bruno, and Briggs. :good
Lewis hit a lot harder than Bowe and had a better jab and was a better textbook boxer.
Yes of course Bowe struggled with Holyfield, he won the first one but took a lot of punishment in doing so and don't forget Holyfield beat him second time around because he elected to box, I didnt have it "razor close at all", close-ish yes but clear. Styles make fights, imo both Tyson and Lewis were too powerful for Bowe, his chin was good but it wasn't McCall or Mercer good and you could throw a grain of rice at him in a hurricane from twenty feet away and be sure it would hit him in the face.

[mr. magoo]

mrbassie;3858848]you could throw a grain of rice at him in a hurricane from twenty feet away and be sure it would hit him in the face.



I like that expression:good

[mrbassie]

I like that expression:good

I just made it up, if you want to use it, please send me a cheque for £5 and a chocolate bar of your choice

[mr. magoo]

I just made it up, if you want to use it, please send me a cheque for £5 and a chocolate bar of your choice

No problem, I might just have to do that, :lol:

[lefthook31]

This how a big man should fight against a guy who likes to box from the outside.

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[lefthook31]

Was the olympic win that spectacular anyway? Bowe clearly wins the first round, not sure why the ref stopped it in the second, Bowe clearly raises his hands like hes ready to continue

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[mr. magoo]

This how a big man should fight against a guy who likes to box from the outside.

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Again, it was a respectable performance by Bowe. But, this fight can hardly be used as an accurate berometer of how a Bowe vs Lewis match would play out. Gonzalez spent way too much time on the ropes, did not know how to tie Bowe up on the inside, and left himself wide open every time he threw a punch. His jab was also more of a sweeping or pawing type of punch rather than the textbook type that Lewis threw. Lastly, Lewis was superior to Gonzalez in both the speed and power department.

Here, look at what Lewis does to Michael Grant, who frankly I believe had more in common with Bowe than Lewis did with Gonzalez, and who was at least if nothing else, a better opponent.

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[lefthook31]

Again, it was a respectable performance by Bowe. But, this fight can hardly be used as an accurate berometer of how a Bowe vs Lewis match would play out. Gonzalez spent way too much time on the ropes, did not know how to tie Bowe up on the inside, and left himself wide open every time he threw a punch. His jab was also more of a sweeping or pawing type of punch rather than the textbook type that Lewis threw. Lastly, Lewis was superior to Gonzalez in both the speed and power department.

Here, look at what Lewis does to Michael Grant, who frankly I believe had more in common with Bowe than Lewis did with Gonzalez, and who was at least if nothing else, a better opponent.

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Are you kidding?? Michael Grant started boxing ver late, had very few amatuer fights, and had no skills. Bowe was a seasoned amatuer fighter who went to the olympics. cmon!!!:huh

[mr. magoo]

Before you jump all over me like flies on shit, listen to what I said. Grant was closer in similarity to Bowe than Gonzalez was to Lewis, even though they all had noticable differences. In addition, I would not count out Grant's abilities simply because he had no amatuer career. The man was a 31-0 professional when Lewis faced him and a solid #1 contender who had beaten Andrew Golata, Lou Savarese, Obed Sullivan, Jorge Luis Gonzalez, David Izon, Alfred Cole, Lionel Butler and Ross Purity.. I know it sounds like I'm just reading names off of boxrec ( and truth, I was ), but you can't deny that that is a hell of a respectable streak. Grant was also 28 years old, 6'7", 250 Lbs and in chizzeled physical shape - something Riddick Bowe wasn't for much of his career. Anyway, I only posted the clip, because I wanted to point out that Lewis looked very good against men with similar traits, just as you did with Gonazalez.

[lefthook31]

Before you jump all over me like flies on shit, listen to what I said. Grant was closer in similarity to Bowe than Gonzalez was to Lewis, even though they all had noticable differences. In addition, I would not count out Grant's abilities simply because he had no amatuer career. The man was a 31-0 professional when Lewis faced him and a solid #1 contender who had beaten Andrew Golata, Lou Savarese, Obed Sullivan, Jorge Luis Gonzalez, David Izon, Alfred Cole, Lionel Butler and Ross Purity.. I know it sounds like I'm just reading names off of boxrec ( and truth, I was ), but you can't deny that that is a hell of a respectable streak. Grant was also 28 years old, 6'7", 250 Lbs and in chizzeled physical shape - something Riddick Bowe wasn't for much of his career. Anyway, I only posted the clip, because I wanted to point out that Lewis looked very good against men with similar traits, just as you did with Gonazalez.

Bowe was a big tall guy, but he fought well on the inside and the outside, thats why I posted that video, not compare anything. He had a lot of skills started boxng at a young age. Grant for his limited skills did progress suprisingly well and quickly, but he showed his true colors in the Savarese and Golota fights, were he started getting tagged and dropped. To me it was a well executed run to the title (similar to Foremans second career :yep), but I never felt Grant would make it out of the first round with Lewis. In no way did Grant resemble any type of fighting style or skills that Bowe had. The only thing they had in common was they were both African American boxers.:hey

[mr. magoo]

The only thing they had in common was they were both African American boxers.:hey


Well they had the one commonality of both getting decked by Andrew Golata. The only difference is that Grant scored a genuine victory, Bowe didn't.

Here let me ad one of these for good measure : :hey

[godking]

This is simply not true. He was one of the more exciting big heavyweights. I dont think he was a brawler more than he was a real fighter and went for the kill when he saw his chances, unlike Lewis who chose to take the safest route against the better fighters. At his best, he had one of the best jabs, and used it well to get inside and engage fighters. I wouldnt say he had a lack of defense either. He would equal Lewis at anytime in the jab department, could always fight better on the inside and talk about poor footwork, if Lewis didnt have his way on the outside, and the fight became physical he looked like he was on roller skates in a ice rink.
I will say, he showed a lot of inconsistency and laziness, which was evident primarily after winning the title and going to Africa.
I love how everyone uses the Olympics example. Bowe was soundly beaten by Gonzalez in the Olympics, and beat him senseless in the pros. At that time Gonzalez was undefeated and untested, but Lewis was also not even close to his best at the time their fight was proposed.Sorry but you are wrong

Bowe was outjabbed by everyone whothrew a jab at him.

Had holy jabbed more he would have won the first fight.

Bowe had horrible defense horrible without his chin he would probably have been kod besides early Wlad i cant think of an elite hw with bigger defensive holes.

And yes he had relativelly poor footwork.

Bowe has infighting skills over Lewis ( Not mentioning chin its a physical attribute not a skill) nothing else

If Bowe stays on the outside against Lewis he gets destroyed inability to handle a jab + no defense equals disaster in an outside fight fight against Lewis the only chance Bowe would have is to make it an infight if Lewis was willing to go there If Lewis choses to stay on the outside there is nothing Bowe can do.

Bowe gets stopped in 5 round tops only his chin keeps him in the fight.

[ChrisPontius]

Was the olympic win that spectacular anyway? Bowe clearly wins the first round, not sure why the ref stopped it in the second, Bowe clearly raises his hands like hes ready to continue


You're not very familiar with amateur boxing, are you?

[lefthook31]

Sorry but you are wrong

Bowe was outjabbed by everyone whothrew a jab at him.

Had holy jabbed more he would have won the first fight.

Bowe had horrible defense horrible without his chin he would probably have been kod besides early Wlad i cant think of an elite hw with bigger defensive holes.

And yes he had relativelly poor footwork.

Bowe has infighting skills over Lewis ( Not mentioning chin its a physical attribute not a skill) noth

If Bowe stays on the outside against Lewis he gets destroyed inability to handle a jab + no defense equals disaster in an outside fight fight against Lewis the only chance Bowe would have is to make it an infight if Lewis was willing to go there If Lewis choses to stay on the outside there is nothing Bowe can do.

Bowe gets stopped in 5 round tops only his chin keeps him in the fight.


:dead:dead

[lefthook31]

You're not very familiar with amateur boxing, are you?


Yes I fought in the amatuers, but I dont remember them stopping fights after two standing eights? My point was it wasnt dominating like so many seem to think

[ChrisPontius]

Yes I fought in the amatuers, but I dont remember them stopping fights after two standing eights? My point was it wasnt dominating like so many seem to think

Sorry, then i take my words back.

But, at any rate, amateur bouts are stopped much faster than professional ones and this one was no exception.

[lefthook31]

Sorry, then i take my words back.

But, at any rate, amateur bouts are stopped much faster than professional ones and this one was no exception.
Yes and apparently Bowe had a tough fight in the semis where Lewis was able to get a bye so he had one less fight to get to the final.
Im not hating on Lewis, he was a well disciplined fighter who progressed through the pro ranks, and was smart enough to make the change to a real pro trainer, so he could improve himself. There is no excuse for knuckleheads like Mike Tyson and Riddick Bowe, who in my opinion had more natural physical talent, but blew it by being lazy and or stupid. Throw Holyfield, the overachiever in that mix, another well disciplined fighter with some limitations, and it would have been one of the best eras in heavyweight boxing had they all faced each other at their respective bests.

[mr. magoo]

Yes and apparently Bowe had a tough fight in the semis where Lewis was able to get a bye so he had one less fight to get to the final.
Im not hating on Lewis, he was a well disciplined fighter who progressed through the pro ranks, and was smart enough to make the change to a real pro trainer, so he could improve himself. There is no excuse for knuckleheads like Mike Tyson and Riddick Bowe, who in my opinion had more natural physical talent, but blew it by being lazy and or stupid. Throw Holyfield, the overachiever in that mix, another well disciplined fighter with some limitations, and it would have been one of the best eras in heavyweight boxing had they all faced each other at their respective bests.

Now, this is a post that I agree with. It is shameful that the perspective primes of Tyson, Bowe, Lewis and Holyfield never crossed. If they had, we would have likely seen multiple fight sagas, and the nineties may very well have exceded the 70's as a golden era for heavyweight boxing.

[ChrisPontius]

Now, this is a post that I agree with. It is shameful that the perspective primes of Tyson, Bowe, Lewis and Holyfield never crossed. If they had, we would have likely seen multiple fight sagas, and the nineties may very well have exceded the 70's as a golden era for heavyweight boxing.

In my opinion, they're very close as it is. Not in the eye of the public, but still. The second half of the 70's .... basically was shit. A shot Ali who held the title hostage, a shot Frazier, green Holmes, and only a few significant fights of Foreman before he retired. I'm talking about heavyweights only, of course.

[Bokaj]

In my opinion, they're very close as it is. Not in the eye of the public, but still. The second half of the 70's .... basically was shit. A shot Ali who held the title hostage, a shot Frazier, green Holmes, and only a few significant fights of Foreman before he retired. I'm talking about heavyweights only, of course.

What do you think would have happened if Ali retired after Manilla? Would Young be able to take the title and hold it for a while?

[mr. magoo]

In my opinion, they're very close as it is. Not in the eye of the public, but still. The second half of the 70's .... basically was shit. A shot Ali who held the title hostage, a shot Frazier, green Holmes, and only a few significant fights of Foreman before he retired. I'm talking about heavyweights only, of course.


I agree completely. The 1970's sucked from about 1976 onward. However, I think that when people are referring to the golden era of heavyweights, they are not just talking about the 70's in a broad general sense. They are typically reflecting on the time frame from about 1969-1975. Old Fogey likes to make references to Leon Spinks when searching for a weak link in order to make a case for another era being comparable or better. The 90's weren't much better from about '96 and beyond. Riddick Bowe was gone. Tyson and Holyfield were washed up, and we really weren't seeing any interesting triliogies or good matchups anymore. Hell we were venturing into the eras of Chris Byrd, John Ruiz, Larry Donald,etc..

[ChrisPontius]

What do you think would have happened if Ali retired after Manilla? Would Young be able to take the title and hold it for a while?

Well, a lot depends on whether the judges appreciate Young; he should've held the title as it is. If a fight is sanctioned between him and Foreman for the vacant title, then he'd win it and hold it perhaps until the late 70's when Holmes or Norton beats him. But Norton was the #2 contender at the end of '75 (Foreman being #1, Young #3); if for some reason the vacant title was held between Young and Norton then Norton obviously wins it, but he'd probably lose to Foreman or someone else soon which might give Young another shot.

Either way, despite being an outstanding fighter, i don't think Young would've held on to the title long and longetivity never was his strongest point in the first place.




I agree completely. The 1970's sucked from about 1976 onward. However, I think that when people are referring to the golden era of heavyweights, they are not just talking about the 70's in a broad general sense. They are typically reflecting on the time frame from about 1969-1975. Old Fogey likes to make references to Leon Spinks when searching for a weak link in order to make a case for another era being comparable or better. The 90's weren't much better from about '96 and beyond. Riddick Bowe was gone. Tyson and Holyfield were washed up, and we really weren't seeing any interesting triliogies or good matchups anymore. Hell we were venturing into the eras of Chris Byrd, John Ruiz, Larry Donald,etc..

Well, i'd like to hook in on that latter part of the late 90's. I don't think it was that bad. Lewis was still very close to his peak. The titles were being unified. Tua was at his peak and had a GREAT fight with Ibeabuchi. The Klitschko's were coming up. Tyson, while past his best, still had exciting fights. Lewis vs Briggs, Lewis vs Grant, good scraps. It wasn't until Lewis retired (which is a coincidence) that the shitstorm came.

[mr. magoo]

It's possible that the late 90's could have been a bit more exciting and competitive than the late 70's, but neither were very good time periods for heavyweight boxing. When we compare the haydays of both eras, which were the early to mid 90's vs the early to mid 70's, I think the 70's come out as being substantially better. On the flipside, the 90's COULD HAVE BEEN a better era if the proper matches were made and done so in a timely fashion, but the reality of things is that they weren't. There are also some other things that made the 90's a tad inferior. You had some of the hugest upsets in ring history, Tyson-Douglas, Lewis-McCall, Moorer-Foreman.. You had two 40+ ex-champs coming back from long periods of inactivity who breached the top 10 and one of whom even won the lineal title. You had too many nobodies winnig alpha-belts, like Seldon, McCall, etc. You had two Non-heavyweights win the lineal title, one of whom is commonly recognized as the period's best participant. You had one of the division's key players ( Tyson ) who was abscent for half the decade. You had too many matches that weren't made, and people throwing belts in the trash.......

During the first golden era, you at least had the very best of the best holding the title, and the very best possible matches being made. Sure, there were some questionable decisons and shitty matches being made in the latter part of the decade, but 1969-1975 was a pretty strait up solid time for heavyweight boxing....

[markedwardscott]

He would have had a chance of beating Tyson because of his size and excellent jab.

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[Chris Warren]

I disagree,

Sure its possible that a peak Bowe might have gotten the better of a pre-Steward Lewis, but even then I'm not so sure. Riddick lost handely to Lewis in the amateurs and continued to struggle with men who had a strait jab and good generalship throughout his career. The Lewis who was utterly anialating men like Andrew Golata, Shanon Briggs, Michael Grant, etc, would have to be favored against Riddick Bowe.

Lewis did what to Briggs? Maybe you watched some other fight because in the one i watched Briggs almost knocked out Lewis with a grazing punched and then gassed himself out. Micheal Grant had no chin so beating him proves what? Bruno manhandled Lewis until he gassed out as well.

Lewis best wins came against a washed up Tyson and a washed up Holyfield, Bowe didnt fight to many great fighters either but he did beat a prime Holyfield something Lewis wouldnt be able to do.

[mr. magoo]

I disagree,


[QUOTE]Lewis did what to Briggs? Maybe you watched some other fight because in the one i watched Briggs almost knocked out Lewis with a grazing punched and then gassed himself out.

He got staggered in a fight against a big puncher. So what? Why don't you check it out and tell me if there was any question as to who won that fight.


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Micheal Grant had no chin so beating him proves what? Bruno manhandled Lewis until he gassed out as well.


He was stopped 3 times in some 50 fights, in a career that consisted of a fair number of meetings with big hitters. Big deal. The man was still a very large, strong, well conditioned contender who was unbeaten in many fights and hardly took the safe route to the title.

Lewis best wins came against a washed up Tyson and a washed up

And.... David Tua......And.. Vitali Klitschko.....And Razor Ruddock...And Andrew Golata. Hey, the guy basically flattened a whole generation of young super heavys, that is all except for Riddick Bowe, but now why do you think that one never happened?


Holyfield, Bowe didnt fight to many great fighters either but he did beat a prime Holyfield something Lewis wouldnt be able to do.



Lewis destroyed Andrew Golata-something that Bowe couldn't do. What's your point?

[lefthook31]

[quote=Chris ******;3865197]I disagree,




He got staggered in a fight against a big puncher. So what? Why don't you check it out and tell me if there was any question as to who won that fight.


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He was stopped 3 times in some 50 fights, in a career that consisted of a fair number of meetings with big hitters. Big deal. The man was still a very large, strong, well conditioned contender who was unbeaten in many fights and hardly took the safe route to the title.



And.... David Tua......And.. Vitali Klitschko.....And Razor Ruddock...And Andrew Golata. Hey, the guy basically flattened a whole generation of young super heavys, that is all except for Riddick Bowe, but now why do you think that one never happened?



Lewis destroyed Andrew Golata-something that Bowe couldn't do. What's your point?
Magoo again your overating fighters big time especially Michael Grant. Bowe was getting beaten by Golota, but just like in the Lewis fight he imploded because Bowe was fighting back, so really does it matter if it happened in the early rounds or the later rounds Golota just showed a bit more courage in the Bowe and Tyson fights, but the outcome was always the same, Golota caving. Cant compare Tua, Vitali and especially Ruddock to a prime Holyfield either. With exception of Vitali who was beating Lewis, not one of these young generation of heavies amounted to anything other than top ten contenders. Beating a prime all time great at his peak was definitely as big an accomplishment as defending against a bunch of top ten nobodies in my opinion.

[mr. magoo]

=lefthook31;3865449][quote=mr. magoo;3865386]
Bowe was getting beaten by Golota, but just like in the Lewis fight he imploded because Bowe was fighting back, so really does it matter if it happened in the early rounds or the later rounds Golota just showed a bit more courage in the Bowe and Tyson fights, but the outcome was always the same, Golota caving.


Bowe got beaten pillar to post on two occasions against Golata. Lewis smoked the same version of Golata in a single round just months later. If there's some sort of comparison you're trying to make here, then I don't see see the congruency in it.

Cant compare Tua, Vitali and especially Ruddock to a prime Holyfield either.

You also can't compare Lewis's perfomance against those guys to that of Bowe's against Holyfield's. Bowe fought Holyfield on three occasions, losing to him once, getting floored on another, and winning a clear but close decsion in the first meeting. In 1992, Razor Ruddock was predicted by some to be the next champ after the smoke had cleared. Lewis put an end to that theory quick.


With exception of Vitali who was beating Lewis,

Yes, a 38 year old Lewis who hadn't fought in a full year, showed up at a career high weight, yet managed to do this to the guy's face.

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not one of these young generation of heavies amounted to anything other than top ten contenders. Beating a prime all time great at his peak was definitely as big an accomplishment as defending against a bunch of top ten nobodies in my opinion.



First of all, I wouldn't call David Tua, Vitali Klitschko, Shanon Briggs, and several others nobodies. Secondly, Bowe's win(s) over Evander Holyfield may well be the best single opponent between the two of them, however you'd have to go through probably 4 or 5 of Lennox's best opponents before finally arriving at Bowe's #2. Lewis's resume has far more depth than Bowe's does and it isn't even close.

[ChrisPontius]

They're not really "top ten nobodies", though. Tua, Klitschko, Ruddock, etc all are very dangerous opponents. Plus, Lewis beat Holyfield as well, without losing. It's true that Holyfield had gone back, but he surely was in better condition than in his 3rd bout with Bowe.

[lefthook31]

[quote]
=lefthook31;3865449]

Bowe got beaten pillar to post on two occasions against Golata. Lewis smoked the same version of Golata in a single round just months later. If there's some sort of comparison you're trying to make here, then I don't see see the congruency in it.



You also can't compare Lewis's perfomance against those guys to that of Bowe's against Holyfield's. Bowe fought Holyfield on three occasions, losing to him once, getting floored on another, and winning a clear but close decsion in the first meeting. In 1992, Razor Ruddock was predicted by some to be the next champ after the smoke had cleared. Lewis put an end to that theory quick.




Yes, a 38 year old Lewis who hadn't fought in a full year, showed up at a career high weight, yet managed to do this to the guy's face.

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First of all, I wouldn't call David Tua, Vitali Klitschko, Shanon Briggs, and several others nobodies. Secondly, Bowe's win(s) over Evander Holyfield may well be the best single opponent between the two of them, however you'd have to go through probably 4 or 5 of Lennox's best opponents before finally arriving at Bowe's #2. Lewis's resume has far more depth than Bowe's does and it isn't even close.
If they didnt win a title, they are just top ten contenders. The same can be said for the fighters that Bowe fought. He fought his way to the title shot against Holyfield in a title eliminator against Coetzer. I think boxing became at its most popular on television via HBO and Showtime in mid 90's, so the names are more recognizeable, but really was there any difference between Micheal Dokes and Pierre Coezter, compared to Shannon Briggs, and Mike Grant? Dokes gave Holyfield a hell of a fight, and Bowe blew him away just like Lewis did to Golota and Grant. They all basically accomplished about the same, and Lewis didnt beat anywhere close to the version of Holyfield that Bowe beat, and Bowe beat him at his own game.

[PowerPuncher]

[quote=mr. magoo;3865548]
If they didnt win a title, they are just top ten contenders. The same can be said for the fighters that Bowe fought. .

NO, Bowe fought hasbeens and fringe contenders outside of Holyfield and never took on any big punchers, Lennox took on the very top fighters in the division year on year and took on the biggest punchers the division had to offer year on year.

[mr. magoo]

=lefthook31;3865588][quote=mr. magoo;3865548]
I think boxing became at its most popular on television via HBO and Showtime in mid 90's, so the names are more recognizeable,


Actually, I think heavyweight boxing was at its peak popularity wise during the 1970's, but let's move on.

but really was there any difference between Micheal Dokes and Pierre Coezter, compared to Shannon Briggs, and Mike Grant?

Yes, huge. Coetzer was a decent fighter, but was pushed to the top of the ratings. There was no jusfiable reason for the IBF having him rated at #1 in June of 1992. Both Briggs and Grant had beaten better fighters, and had better record prior to reaching the top of the division. Michael Dokes was still a formidable foe in 1989, but by 1993 he was basically done. He was some 34 years of age, had sustained two bad KO losses against Holy and Ruddock, plus according to sources, had resumed his cocaine habit... Michael Dokes challenging for the heavywieght title in 1993 was a joke. Michael Grant challenging Lewis for the title wasn't.


Dokes gave Holyfield a hell of a fight, and Bowe blew him away just like Lewis did to Golota and Grant.

See the above statement.



They all basically accomplished about the same, and Lewis didnt beat anywhere close to the version of Holyfield that Bowe beat,

I can't disagree that Bowe's win over a 1992 version of Evander Holyfield was probably a better SINGLE win than that of any Lewis ever had. Fair enough. But again, one signature victory does not necessarily mean that one fighter should rated above another and it certainly does not mean that it would have any bearing in a head to head matchup. Ken Norton's win over Muhammad Ali, may well be a better victory than some of the best wins of a lot of top 10 heavyweight champions. Do you rate Norton higher? Would you pick him to beat them?



and Bowe beat him at his own game.

You got it the other way around pal. Holyfield would have been better off boxing Bowe rather than playing BOWE's game of trying to outmuscle and out hustle the bigger, stronger, younger and more recently active man. Nevertheless, Holy played Bowe's game, fought his type of fight, and still gave him the fight of his career. In the rematch, Holyfield boxed and look who won.

[mr. magoo]

=PowerPuncher;3865781
NO, Bowe fought hasbeens and fringe contenders outside of Holyfield and never took on any big punchers, Lennox took on the very top fighters in the division year on year and took on the biggest punchers the division had to offer year on year.


I agree,

Just for the record PP, you quoted the wrong man..

[lefthook31]

[quote]
=lefthook31;3865588]

Actually, I think heavyweight boxing was at its peak popularity wise during the 1970's, but let's move on.



Yes, huge. Coetzer was a decent fighter, but was pushed to the top of the ratings. There was no jusfiable reason for the IBF having him rated at #1 in June of 1992. Both Briggs and Grant had beaten better fighters, and had better record prior to reaching the top of the division. Michael Dokes was still a formidable foe in 1989, but by 1993 he was basically done. He was some 34 years of age, had sustained two bad KO losses against Holy and Ruddock, plus according to sources, had resumed his cocaine habit... Michael Dokes challenging for the heavywieght title in 1993 was a joke. Michael Grant challenging Lewis for the title wasn't.




See the above statement.





I can't disagree that Bowe's win over a 1992 version of Evander Holyfield was probably a better SINGLE win than that of any Lewis ever had. Fair enough. But again, one signature victory does not necessarily mean that one fighter should rated above another and it certainly does not mean that it would have any bearing in a head to head matchup. Ken Norton's win over Muhammad Ali, may well be a better victory than some of the best wins of a lot of top 10 heavyweight champions. Do you rate Norton higher? Would you pick him to beat them?





You got it the other way around pal. Holyfield would have been better off boxing Bowe rather than playing BOWE's game of trying to outmuscle and out hustle the bigger, stronger, younger and more recently active man. Nevertheless, Holy played Bowe's game, fought his type of fight, and still gave him the fight of his career. In the rematch, Holyfield boxed and look who won.


Now your using past and present accomplishments and "word on the street" statements in your posts, something that held little merit with you before. Dokes was 50-3 and was not coming off of back to back losses thats not true. If you can say Dokes was coked out and done, it should be perfectly fair to say Ruddock was done after his beating at the hands of Tyson, he never did anything after that.
Use that same logic to see what the great hard hitting contenders of the mid 90's accomplished in the sport. According to Lou Duva, Golota didnt want to leave the dressing room for the Lewis fight.
Akinwande, David Izon, David Tua, Lou Savarese, Andrew Golota, Zeljko Mavrovic, Herbi Hide, Frans Botha, Mike Grant Gonzalez, Donald, Briggs, Mathis, Hasim Rahman. They are all from the same era and all about equally as good. All accomplished just about nothing more than contender status, and some more deserving than others. Hide and Briggs held the WBO title, big deal. With exception to Golota I think its fair to say Bowe blew through them as easily as Lewis did and in my opinion if he was able to stay in condition would have dominated them just like Lewis did in a long easy career.
Lewis was knocked out by Rahman, and Mcall, who in the 80's would be in a similar league as these guys were in the 90's.
As far as the second Bowe Holy fight, it was razor close, and in my mind as a whole was a continuation of the first fight, not to mention Bowe was not in top condition, but I know you dont put much merit in that when I use it in my points.

[lefthook31]

So here's some more word on the street statements for you Magoo on Lewis Golota. Taken from a published article.


We never got to see the real Andrew Golota. He was ambushed by his mental weaknesses. Golota, for all his bad boy image, is actually a sensitive and shy individual. He does a lot of unpublicized charity work. He visits schools and hospitals. And he cracks under pressure. Golota simply can't handle the stress. Here are some unconfirmed (as yet) rumors that surfaced both before, during and after the fight:
1. Golota had disappeared 4 hours prior to the fight.
2. An hysterical Lou Duva had his brother Dino and the Atlantic City police out looking for his wayward heavyweight.
3. The 20 minute delay prior to the fight resulted from Golota's refusal to leave the dressing room.
4. The slap across the face delivered by Lou Duva wasn't the first that Golota received that night! 5. Golota suffered a post-fight seizure, during which he reportedly swallowed his tongue (literally impossible) and stopped breathing. Golota's medical problems have been "downgraded" to an anxiety attack - which makes much more sense.

[mr. magoo]

If you can say Dokes was coked out and done, it should be perfectly fair to say Ruddock was done after his beating at the hands of Tyson, he never did anything after that.


1. Dokes was 34 years of age when he fought Bowe, Ruddock was 28 against Lewis.

2. Ruddock had suffered two losses to Tyson, one of which was a higly controversial stoppage in which he was furious that he was not permitted to continue, and the other was a competitive match that went the distance. Dokes was knocked UNCONCIOUS in his fights with both Ruddock and Holyfield, and the Holyfield match was considered as one of the most grueling heavyweight battles of the 1980's.

I am not making double standards at all. You're simply comparing apples to oranges.




Use that same logic to see what the great hard hitting contenders of the mid 90's accomplished in the sport. According to Lou Duva, Golota didnt want to leave the dressing room for the Lewis fight.


And who knows how he felt in the Bowe fight, but it doesn't change the fact that Bowe got his ass kicked, while Lewis easily destroyed Golata. Why do you keep dancing around this issue?

Akinwande, David Izon, David Tua, Lou Savarese, Andrew Golota, Zeljko Mavrovic, Herbi Hide, Frans Botha, Mike Grant Gonzalez, Donald, Briggs, Mathis, Hasim Rahman. They are all from the same era and all about equally as good.

No they aren't. There are some significant variances in the quality and ability among many of those names that you listed. I will also ad that the better names among that bunch such as Tua, Golata, Botha, Briggs, Rahman, and Grant were men that Lewis beat. Whereas, the lesser names like Hide, Mathis, Donald and Gonzalez were men that Bowe fought. The comparison is not the same.. Lewis beat the better lot of fighters, with the one exception of a younger ( but not necessarily even prime ) Holyfield.


With exception to Golota I think its fair to say Bowe blew through them as easily as Lewis did

Let's take another look at the list you just provided, and see how many common opponents the two of them shared. Remember, this was YOUR list.


Akinwande, David Izon, David Tua, Lou Savarese, Andrew Golota, Zeljko Mavrovic, Herbi Hide, Frans Botha, Mike Grant Gonzalez, Donald, Briggs, Mathis, Hasim Rahman.



Okay, I counted one common opponent who faced both Riddick Bowe and Lennox Lewis, and I think we can both agree that the result was hardly comparable. The rest either fought one or the other, and there were even a few of them such as Izon and Savarese who fought neither.


and in my opinion if he was able to stay in condition would have dominated them just like Lewis did in a long easy career.


But, we'll never know because Bowe NEVER EVEN FOUGHT most of the same guys Lewis faced, and in fact was avoiding some of the better fighters of the division, so I don't even see how comparing performances or talking about things like conditioning is even a relevent point.



Lewis was knocked out by Rahman, and Mcall, who in the 80's would be in a similar league as these guys were in the 90's.


These were bad losses, yes but one of them came when he was past prime, while the other occurred before he had polished up his skills, and in either case, he avenged BOTH of his losses. Bowe may have been awarded victories in both of his fights with Golata, but the fact is he got his ass kicked TWICE, and never genuinely avenged those beatings. Lewis also fought the very best men available for most of his career, with the exception of Byrd and Ruiz, which came later towards the end. Bowe ducked a solid mandatory in his very first defense ever!!!!!!



As far as the second Bowe Holy fight, it was razor close, and in my mind as a whole was a continuation of the first fight, not to mention Bowe was not in top condition, but I know you dont put much merit in that when I use it in my points.


Neither man was in ideal shape for that match. Both showed up above their usual fight weights, but Bowe at least had the advantage of having fought twice over the previous year as opposed to only once, and still had a 5 year youth advantage. Of course, taking a balanced approach to an issue and giving both sides of the equation the same amount of consideration is somethig that YOU don't give much merit to.

[mr. magoo]

So here's some more word on the street statements for you Magoo on Lewis Golota. Taken from a published article.


We never got to see the real Andrew Golota. He was ambushed by his mental weaknesses. Golota, for all his bad boy image, is actually a sensitive and shy individual. He does a lot of unpublicized charity work. He visits schools and hospitals. And he cracks under pressure. Golota simply can't handle the stress. Here are some unconfirmed (as yet) rumors that surfaced both before, during and after the fight:
1. Golota had disappeared 4 hours prior to the fight.
2. An hysterical Lou Duva had his brother Dino and the Atlantic City police out looking for his wayward heavyweight.
3. The 20 minute delay prior to the fight resulted from Golota's refusal to leave the dressing room.
4. The slap across the face delivered by Lou Duva wasn't the first that Golota received that night! 5. Golota suffered a post-fight seizure, during which he reportedly swallowed his tongue (literally impossible) and stopped breathing. Golota's medical problems have been "downgraded" to an anxiety attack - which makes much more sense.


Depicting Golata as shy and timid is fine. The only point that matters here, is that Lewis defeated him in a single round... Bowe got desecrated by him....... What more is there?

[PowerPuncher]

I agree,

Just for the record PP, you quoted the wrong man..

ESB playing up, I was thinking of arguing on here earlier but saw you doing a great job Magoo.

Bowe gave us great wars with Holyfield but his legacy is very weak that aside. Whats his second best win? OLD Dokes? Chinless Hide?

Bowe supporters point to him beating 'Prime' Holyfield, well ok Lewis didn't get a shot there though and that Holyfield was much weaker/smaller, wasn't a big puncher and fought the wrong fight, winning the rematch. Did Holyfield have hepatitis in the Rubber Match?

He also does very little better than Lewis in terms of ability and looks tailor made for Lennox because he is easy hit, slower, potentially suceptible to a big hitter and relatively easy to control with a jab.

[mr. magoo]

ESB playing up, I was thinking of arguing on here earlier but saw you doing a great job Magoo.

Bowe gave us great wars with Holyfield but his legacy is very weak that aside. Whats his second best win? OLD Dokes? Chinless Hide?

Bowe supporters point to him beating 'Prime' Holyfield, well ok Lewis didn't get a shot there though and that Holyfield was much weaker/smaller, wasn't a big puncher and fought the wrong fight, winning the rematch. Did Holyfield have hepatitis in the Rubber Match?

He also does very little better than Lewis in terms of ability and looks tailor made for Lennox because he is easy hit, slower, potentially suceptible to a big hitter and relatively easy to control with a jab.

Thanks man. Yeah, my day would be a lot more productive at work if I hadn't wasted my time going in circles on this shit. Next time, I'm passing it off on to you to beat your head against the wall:good

[Chiefs]

Bowe would easily beat tyson, way too classy a fighter and tyson has problems with guys that size.

[lefthook31]

1. Dokes was 34 years of age when he fought Bowe, Ruddock was 28 against Lewis.

2. Ruddock had suffered two losses to Tyson, one of which was a higly controversial stoppage in which he was furious that he was not permitted to continue, and the other was a competitive match that went the distance. Dokes was knocked UNCONCIOUS in his fights with both Ruddock and Holyfield, and the Holyfield match was considered as one of the most grueling heavyweight battles of the 1980's.

I am not making double standards at all. You're simply comparing apples to oranges.





And who knows how he felt in the Bowe fight, but it doesn't change the fact that Bowe got his ass kicked, while Lewis easily destroyed Golata. Why do you keep dancing around this issue?



No they aren't. There are some significant variances in the quality and ability among many of those names that you listed. I will also ad that the better names among that bunch such as Tua, Golata, Botha, Briggs, Rahman, and Grant were men that Lewis beat. Whereas, the lesser names like Hide, Mathis, Donald and Gonzalez were men that Bowe fought. The comparison is not the same.. Lewis beat the better lot of fighters, with the one exception of a younger ( but not necessarily even prime ) Holyfield.




Let's take another look at the list you just provided, and see how many common opponents the two of them shared. Remember, this was YOUR list.




Okay, I counted one common opponent who faced both Riddick Bowe and Lennox Lewis, and I think we can both agree that the result was hardly comparable. The rest either fought one or the other, and there were even a few of them such as Izon and Savarese who fought neither.



But, we'll never know because Bowe NEVER EVEN FOUGHT most of the same guys Lewis faced, and in fact was avoiding some of the better fighters of the division, so I don't even see how comparing performances or talking about things like conditioning is even a relevent point.




These were bad losses, yes but one of them came when he was past prime, while the other occurred before he had polished up his skills, and in either case, he avenged BOTH of his losses. Bowe may have been awarded victories in both of his fights with Golata, but the fact is he got his ass kicked TWICE, and never genuinely avenged those beatings. Lewis also fought the very best men available for most of his career, with the exception of Byrd and Ruiz, which came later towards the end. Bowe ducked a solid mandatory in his very first defense ever!!!!!!




Neither man was in ideal shape for that match. Both showed up above their usual fight weights, but Bowe at least had the advantage of having fought twice over the previous year as opposed to only once, and still had a 5 year youth advantage. Of course, taking a balanced approach to an issue and giving both sides of the equation the same amount of consideration is somethig that YOU don't give much merit to.

Thats not correct. They all are on the same par, based on their accomplishments. Fringe contenders with a few of them capturing meaningless titles. Is there really much difference between Zeljko Mavrovic and Larry Donald or Frans Botha and Buster Mathis Jr, or Bruce Seldon and Shannon Briggs? Golotas was best known for beating up a shot Riddick Bowe, nothing more. Punching threats dont always make it a more competitive or meaningful fight. There is a difference, between those guys and a guy like Mercer, or Bruno, Holyfield and Mcall based on their accomplishments, which in my opinion were Lewis' best opponents. You want to call Ruddock competitive with Tyson? With exception to having some moments where he landed a few punches, he basically got shut out in both fights, and to me was more impressive in the beating he took. The stoppage was premature in the first fight, but it was an inevitable ending at that point, Tyson had him almost defenseless on the ropes.
People tend to judge Bowe's entire career off of the fact he avoided Lewis and the Golota fights. Unlike Lewis who faced Golota in his prime Bowe faced him in his last fight, very similar to the situation of Lewis in the Klitschko fight. Up until the end of his career with exception to Lewis what other dangerous contender did he avoid? I think a rematch with Holyfield was more than justified, especially considering Lewis was hurt badly in his first defense, and knocked out in his third defense, after defending against Phil Jackson, who was about as big of a joke as Jesse Ferguson.

[Chiefs]

Tyson would never have been able to deal with that size.

[Bokaj]

Thats not correct. They all are on the same par, based on their accomplishments. Fringe contenders with a few of them capturing meaningless titles. Is there really much difference between Zeljko Mavrovic and Larry Donald or Frans Botha and Buster Mathis Jr, or Bruce Seldon and Shannon Briggs?

Yes, there is. I totally agree while Bowe has the best win, Lewis best wins takes the next 5-10 places after that.

Golotas was best known for beating up a shot Riddick Bowe, nothing more.

I'm actually so sick of this kind of shit I could puke. Bowe had just come off one of his best victories and no one, I repeat NO ONE, thought that Bowe was shot. He was seen as by far the most formidable threat for a comebacking Tyson.

If Bowe had looked good in the rematch I'd be fully prepared to put the first fight down to lack of preparation and overconfidence, but as it is it seems rather that Golota exposed him to a degree.

I truly hate this rewriting of history to come up with excuses. Liston was past it against Ali, despite coming off his best two wins. Hagler was shot against Leonard, two years after his best win with only one fight in between. Tyson was hopelessly depleted against Douglas, despit being 24 and 18 months from his best win. Etc, etc. This is such a load of crap.

Perhaps Bowe had passed his peak, but shot... That's not worth taking seriously.

[Russell]

Depicting Golata as shy and timid is fine. The only point that matters here, is that Lewis defeated him in a single round... Bowe got desecrated by him....... What more is there?

That Golota was coming off a year of inactivity and damaged goods even before the Lewis fight?

Great win for Lennox, but have some perspective. It isn't as cut and dry as Lennox wiped his ass with Golota.

[lefthook31]

Yes, there is. I totally agree while Bowe has the best win, Lewis best wins takes the next 5-10 places after that.



I'm actually so sick of this kind of shit I could puke. Bowe had just come off one of his best victories and no one, I repeat NO ONE, thought that Bowe was shot. He was seen as by far the most formidable threat for a comebacking Tyson.

If Bowe had looked good in the rematch I'd be fully prepared to put the first fight down to lack of preparation and overconfidence, but as it is it seems rather that Golota exposed him to a degree.

I truly hate this rewriting of history to come up with excuses. Liston was past it against Ali, despite coming off his best two wins. Hagler was shot against Leonard, two years after his best win with only one fight in between. Tyson was hopelessly depleted against Douglas, despit being 24 and 18 months from his best win. Etc, etc. This is such a load of crap.

Perhaps Bowe had passed his peak, but shot... That's not worth taking seriously.
Cmon, he was dropped by Holyfield and out on his feet from a short little hook. It was common knowledge Bowe was spending his training camps killing himself to shed weight only. Its not excuses, its fact, and the fact that Bowe looked horrible in the first Golota fight, Futch left him for good in the second, and Bowe retired after the second fight, should tell you he was done.
Were not talking about Tyson, thats a different story, but yes, Tyson was depleted not because he was shot, but because his skills were eroding due to poor preparation and the replacement of a key player to his sucess in his corner. It showed in the Bruno fight, he swung wildly and was rocked badly by Bruno. Its like saying Lewis was the same fighter once he replaced Correa with Steward, thats simply not true. He improved tremendously.

[mr. magoo]

Thats not correct. They all are on the same par, based on their accomplishments. Fringe contenders with a few of them capturing meaningless titles. Is there really much difference between Zeljko Mavrovic and Larry Donald or Frans Botha and Buster Mathis Jr, or Bruce Seldon and Shannon Briggs? Golotas was best known for beating up a shot Riddick Bowe, nothing more. Punching threats dont always make it a more competitive or meaningful fight. There is a difference, between those guys and a guy like Mercer, or Bruno, Holyfield and Mcall based on their accomplishments, which in my opinion were Lewis' best opponents. You want to call Ruddock competitive with Tyson? With exception to having some moments where he landed a few punches, he basically got shut out in both fights, and to me was more impressive in the beating he took. The stoppage was premature in the first fight, but it was an inevitable ending at that point, Tyson had him almost defenseless on the ropes.
People tend to judge Bowe's entire career off of the fact he avoided Lewis and the Golota fights. Unlike Lewis who faced Golota in his prime Bowe faced him in his last fight, very similar to the situation of Lewis in the Klitschko fight. Up until the end of his career with exception to Lewis what other dangerous contender did he avoid? I think a rematch with Holyfield was more than justified, especially considering Lewis was hurt badly in his first defense, and knocked out in his third defense, after defending against Phil Jackson, who was about as big of a joke as Jesse Ferguson.


What the hell do I have do, disect the careers of people like Bruce Seldon and Shanon Briggs, in an effort to convince you that Lewis fought better men? Sorry, I'm taking anymore time on this. You have youtube available at your disposal along with boxrec, various online boxing publications along with the testimonies of numerous, knowledgable posters here who can tell you who fought the better lot between Bowe and Lewis. Frankly, I think you're holding on to this issue for dear life for sake of some cause to avoid losing face, and I don't know why. If we're honest, 90% of this can be chalked up to common sense ( at least for those of us who have it ), while the rest is pure speculation and probably better left to the hoplessly bored and unemployed.

I will reiterate my position on the matter one last time before ducking out of here.

1. Lewis needs to be favored over Bowe in a head to head matchup, by virtue of his superior boxing ability and Bowe's tendency to absord too much punishment when facing a good technical boxer who can penetrate his poor defense.

2. Bowe at his absolute best has a puncher's chance at beating a pre-steward Lewis, but the od's are still not in his favor.

3. While Bowe's win over Evander Holyfield may justifiably be the single best claim that either man has, Lewis has far greater depth and arguably beat several men who are better than Bowe's #2 opponent.

That concludes my participation on the topic.

[lefthook31]

What the hell do I have do, disect the careers of people like Bruce Seldon and Shanon Briggs, in an effort to convince you that Lewis fought better men? Sorry, I'm taking anymore time on this. You have youtube available at your disposal along with boxrec, various online boxing publications along with the testimonies of numerous, knowledgable posters here who can tell you who fought the better lot between Bowe and Lewis. Frankly, I think you're holding on to this issue for dear life for sake of some cause to avoid losing face, and I don't know why. If we're honest, 90% of this can be chalked up to common sense ( at least for those of us who have it ), while the rest is pure speculation and probably better left to the hoplessly bored and unemployed.

I will reiterate my position on the matter one last time before ducking out of here.

1. Lewis needs to be favored over Bowe in a head to head matchup, by virtue of his superior boxing ability and Bowe's tendency to absord too much punishment when facing a good technical boxer who can penetrate his poor defense.

2. Bowe at his absolute best has a puncher's chance at beating a pre-steward Lewis, but the od's are still not in his favor.

3. While Bowe's win over Evander Holyfield may justifiably be the single best claim that either man has, Lewis has far greater depth and arguably beat several men who are better than Bowe's #2 opponent.

That concludes my participation on the topic.
Your wrong, how could you say he only had a punchers chance based on the fact that Bowe had progressed quicker as a pro, was the undisputed champion beating a prime Evander Holyfield, and Lewis was knocked out by lessor competition pre and post Steward? Thats a ridiculous statement. Were debating that they fought relatively the same type of competition, throwing a prime all time great into the mix. Ive said that Lewis had a longer career and better career overall, but he never faced an all time great in their respective prime, and the fighters that he did fight that actually won titles and had solid pedigrees he lost against or struggled. Now if you think a guy like Golota, Mavrovic, Briggs or Akinwande, are solid fighters, I again ask you the question, what did they accomplish in the sport? Bruce Seldons title win against Tucker was about as impressive as Briggs' 12 round Ko over Lyhovich after losing every round. Besides that both guys were knocked out against any meaningful fighter they faced.

[Bokaj]

Cmon, he was dropped by Holyfield and out on his feet from a short little hook. It was common knowledge Bowe was spending his training camps killing himself to shed weight only. Its not excuses, its fact, and the fact that Bowe looked horrible in the first Golota fight, Futch left him for good in the second, and Bowe retired after the second fight, should tell you he was done.

So he was dropped? He was almost dropped in the first fight, and then he didn't succeed in KO'ing Holyfield. He was 29, with jut one defeat and came from his second best victory. He was not shot. And there was nothing wrong with his shape in the rematch. Spinks quit after facing Tyson. Was he shot too?

This is BS, and I'm done with it. I have no time and little respect for people who try to rewrite history like this. I readily believe that Bowe was slack with his training, and, as I said, had he performed in the rematch I'd would be ready to put the first one down to lack of preparation. But he didn't. And he wasn't shot. Using that term here is robbing it of any significance.

[lefthook31]

So he was dropped? He was almost dropped in the first fight, and then he didn't succeed in KO'ing Holyfield. He was 29, with jut one defeat and came from his second best victory. He was not shot. And there was nothing wrong with his shape in the rematch. Spinks quit after facing Tyson. Was he shot too?

This is BS, and I'm done with it. I have no time and little respect for people who try to rewrite history like this. I readily believe that Bowe was slack with his training, and, as I said, had he performed in the rematch I'd would be ready to put the first one down to lack of preparation. But he didn't. And he wasn't shot. Using that term here is robbing it of any significance.

Different fighters retire for different reasons. Spinks and Lewis went out before they were shot, Bowe, Tyson and Holyfield did not. In this case, Bowe was shot. It was evident in his reaction, timing, and mostly his speech. He was getting hurt badly in three consecutive fights usually a sign that something aint right anymore.
A fighter can lose his legs and ability to take a punch from gaining and shedding large amounts of weight between fights, and that was a known fact in the case of Bowe, after he won the title and what I believe ulitimately shortened his career. To me his last strong performance was in the Gonzalez fight, and even though he beat Holyfield in the third fight, he really never looked right.

[mr. magoo]

E=lefthook31;3867811]Your wrong, how could you say he only had a punchers chance based on the fact that Bowe had progressed quicker as a pro, was the undisputed champion beating a prime Evander Holyfield, and Lewis was knocked out by lessor competition pre and post Steward? Thats a ridiculous statement.

How did Bowe progress quicker as a pro, because he had accumulated a larger number of fights earlier? Take a look at their competition. Lewis, with only 14 fights behind him, battled and defeated a 35-0 Gary Mason who both the ring magazine along with all three sanctioning bodies had in their top 10. Now, how many guys did Bowe fight like that to earn a world title shot? Especially with only 14 matches? Next you're going to tell me Mason was a bum with a padded record, but needless to say avoid mentioning that Bowe in his 15th pro bout took on some obscure nobody who was 8-7.

If you want to oversimplify the hell out of things, then sure we can just as easily say that Bowe beat a better opponent in Evander Holyfield and never lost to anyone as bad as McCall, then just call it a day. Well, history is not that simple. You may want to note that Lennox Lewis had a substantially longer reign than Riddick Bowe did, and not only did he fight an infinitely larger number of rated opponents, he is dangerously close to joining the fraternity of Muhammad Ali and Joe Louis in the category of most ranked opposition. In addition, Lewis rarely ducked challengers with the exception of Byrd and Ruiz. The only reason for this because nobody was willing to pay a bucket of warm spit to see either of those fights, so he fought MIke Tyson instead.

Bowe on the otherhand, avoided every Dick, Harry, and Tom that came up the pike and divided the world titles after two previous champions had managed to keep them together. Bowe struggled mightily with the much smaller and older Evander Holyfield, and was even beaten by him. He got his ASS HANDED TO HIM by Andrew FUCKING Golata on no less than TWO occasions, who Lewis absolutely humiliated. Why don't you ever address that shit? And are you really serious when you say that Jorge Gonzalez, Bruce Seldon, Herbie Hide and Larry Donald are equal to Razor Ruddock, Vitali Klitschko, David Tua, Shannon Briggs and Michael Grant?!?!?!?!!?! Is this a joke???????



Dude seriously, if you're trying to establish any level of credibility here, then you really need to go back to the drawing board. You can start by scratching this topic and remember to do better in depth research the next time.

[lefthook31]

How did Bowe progress quicker as a pro, because he had accumulated a larger number of fights earlier? Take a look at their competition. Lewis, with only 14 fights behind him, battled and defeated a 35-0 Gary Mason who both the ring magazine along with all three sanctioning bodies had in their top 10. Now, how many guys did Bowe fight like that to earn a world title shot? Especially with only 14 matches? Next you're going to tell me Mason was a bum with a padded record, but needless to say avoid mentioning that Bowe in his 15th pro bout took on some obscure nobody who was 8-7.

If you want to oversimplify the hell out of things, then sure we can just as easily say that Bowe beat a better opponent in Evander Holyfield and never lost to anyone as bad as McCall, then just call it a day. Well, history is not that simple. You may want to note that Lennox Lewis had a substantially longer reign than Riddick Bowe did, and not only did he fight an infinitely larger number of rated opponents, he is dangerously close to joining the fraternity of Muhammad Ali and Joe Louis in the category of most ranked opposition. In addition, Lewis rarely ducked challengers with the exception of Byrd and Ruiz. The only reason for this because nobody was willing to pay a bucket of warm spit to see either of those fights, so he fought MIke Tyson instead.

Bowe on the otherhand, avoided every Dick, Harry, and Tom that came up the pike and divided the world titles after two previous champions had managed to keep them together. Bowe struggled mightily with the much smaller and older Evander Holyfield, and was even beaten by him. He got his ASS HANDED TO HIM by Andrew FUCKING Golata on no less than TWO occasions, who Lewis absolutely humiliated. Why don't you ever address that shit? And are you really serious when you say that Jorge Gonzalez, Bruce Seldon, Herbie Hide and Larry Donald are equal to Razor Ruddock, Vitali Klitschko, David Tua, Shannon Briggs and Michael Grant?!?!?!?!!?! Is this a joke???????



Dude seriously, if you're trying to establish any level of credibility here, then you really need to go back to the drawing board. You can start by scratching this topic and remember to do better in depth research the next time.
:lol::lol::lol::lol: So it was Tom Dick and Harry he avoided? Its obvious you started watching boxing in the mid 90s when Lennox Lewis won the title. As far as me establishing a level of credibility here, I think I can more than hang, regardless of how much you think you know. You on the other hand are the ass clown who posted a picture of yourself in a skirt.:lol:

[Bokaj]

Dude seriously, if you're trying to establish any level of credibility here, then you really need to go back to the drawing board. You can start by scratching this topic and remember to do better in depth research the next time.

I second that. Everyone who's been following this thread sees that you're out in deep water trying to defend your favourite fighter (or one of them at least), and that will hurt your credibility on other subjects.

Yes, Bowe had lots of talent, but his record isn't in miles of Lewis's and he wasn't tested much (largely because he staid away from dangerous opponents), and one of those tests (Golota) he failed with miserably. You could possibly say his potential matched Lewis's, but comparing what they actually showed they could do... There it's not even close.

[mr. magoo]

lefthook31;3871247]:lol::lol::lol::lol: So it was Tom Dick and Harry he avoided? Its obvious you started watching boxing in the mid 90s when Lennox Lewis won the title.

Gee now that's a real credible accusation coming from someone who claims equality between someone like David Tua and Bruce Seldon, and in all likelyhood never saw any of them fight.



As far as me establishing a level of credibility here, I think I can more than hang,

Uh no. This contest has been a rather one sided affair as was our last discussion about Foreman's comback compared to Holmes'. Outside of a lot of repititious typing ( which shouldn't have been necessary ), it was like an easy tune-up for me.




You on the other hand are the ass clown who posted a picture of yourself in a skirt



Perhaps this was the picture you were illuding to


[Only registered and activated users can see links]


You'll notice there are bagpipes in my hand and a medal around my neck. Learning to play a comprehensive musical instrument and do it competitively takes a reasonable amount of intelligence and dilligence. Two things that a retard like yourself will never acquire

Fairwell :hi:

[lefthook31]

I second that. Everyone who's been following this thread sees that you're out in deep water trying to defend your favourite fighter (or one of them at least), and that will hurt your credibility on other subjects.

Yes, Bowe had lots of talent, but his record isn't in miles of Lewis's and he wasn't tested much (largely because he staid away from dangerous opponents), and one of those tests (Golota) he failed with miserably. You could possibly say his potential matched Lewis's, but comparing what they actually showed they could do... There it's not even close.
Im not really trying to defend him, nor did I plan on personally attacking Mr Magoo. He turned it into that. For some reason he thinks I believe Bowe accomplished more than Lewis. My feelings like Ive been posting all along, are the following:
1, Bowe became a better pro quicker than Lewis, as evidence by winning the title over what was considered the best heavyweight at the time, defending his title and then losing it in a close decision in the rematch to the very same fighter. This in contrast to Lewis winning the title from Tucker, struggling in his first defense against Bruno, and then getting knocked out by Mcall two fights later.
2, Besides Lewis, (which can be debated whether it was Bowe or his management) Bowe did not duck any other fighter during his accent to the title and after winning the title.
3. Bowes career was vastly shortened by his lack of discipline and ability to keep his weight in check, which became evident after the first Holyfield fight, when Bowe took large amounts of time off to visit Africa and other world countries.
4 In my estimation at the time the Bowe and Lewis fight was to happen Bowe would have beaten Lewis badly. I say this based on how Lewis performed in his future fights after winning the title.
5. Although not the same fighters, all the fringe contenders and former and future champs that both guys beat "handidly", all accomplished about the same in the sport as each other, some being better boxers, some being bigger punchers, but record wise and talent wise, they can all be grouped in the same category. This did not include a fighter on the level of a Mcall, Mercer, or Bruno.
6. Lennox Lewis did fight more of them, including an upper echelon of contenders such as Mcall, Mercer and Bruno, and established himself as more of a reigining champ and overall would be ranked ahead of Bowe in the ATG list.
7. Being a fan of fighting, I appreciated a fighter like Bowe who was willing to take chances against the better fighters and use all his skills from the inside and out, which was in stark contrast to Lewis, who I did not enjoy watching taking the safe route to most of his significant wins.
Overall I think there is a lot of people who share my same opinion. I dont see most of the people following this thread saying otherwise except you. Sure your opinion may be strayed by your disdain for a fighter, but this is a boxing forum, Im entitiled to my opinion, whether you agree with it or not. :good

[lefthook31]

Gee now that's a real credible accusation coming from someone who claims equality between someone like David Tua and Bruce Seldon, and in all likelyhood never saw any of them fight.





Uh no. This contest has been a rather one sided affair as was our last discussion about Foreman's comback compared to Holmes'. Outside of a lot of repititious typing ( which shouldn't have been necessary ), it was like an easy tune-up for me.






Perhaps this was the picture you were illuding to


[Only registered and activated users can see links]


You'll notice there are bagpipes in my hand and a medal around my neck. Learning to play a comprehensive musical instrument and do it competitively takes a reasonable amount of intelligence and dilligence. Two things that a retard like yourself will never acquire

Fairwell :hi:

Keep living in your dream world. It is impressive. :nut

[godking]

Im not really trying to defend him, nor did I plan on personally attacking Mr Magoo. He turned it into that. For some reason he thinks I believe Bowe accomplished more than Lewis. My feelings like Ive been posting all along, are the following:
1, Bowe became a better pro quicker than Lewis, as evidence by winning the title over what was considered the best heavyweight at the time, defending his title and then losing it in a close decision in the rematch to the very same fighter. This in contrast to Lewis winning the title from Tucker, struggling in his first defense against Bruno, and then getting knocked out by Mcall two fights later.
2, Besides Lewis, (which can be debated whether it was Bowe or his management) Bowe did not duck any other fighter during his accent to the title and after winning the title.
3. Bowes career was vastly shortened by his lack of discipline and ability to keep his weight in check, which became evident after the first Holyfield fight, when Bowe took large amounts of time off to visit Africa and other world countries.
4 In my estimation at the time the Bowe and Lewis fight was to happen Bowe would have beaten Lewis badly. I say this based on how Lewis performed in his future fights after winning the title.
5. Although not the same fighters, all the fringe contenders and former and future champs that both guys beat "handidly", all accomplished about the same in the sport as each other, some being better boxers, some being bigger punchers, but record wise and talent wise, they can all be grouped in the same category. This did not include a fighter on the level of a Mcall, Mercer, or Bruno.
6. Lennox Lewis did fight more of them, including an upper echelon of contenders such as Mcall, Mercer and Bruno, and established himself as more of a reigining champ and overall would be ranked ahead of Bowe in the ATG list.
7. Being a fan of fighting, I appreciated a fighter like Bowe who was willing to take chances against the better fighters and use all his skills from the inside and out, which was in stark contrast to Lewis, who I did not enjoy watching taking the safe route to most of his significant wins.
Overall I think there is a lot of people who share my same opinion. I dont see most of the people following this thread saying otherwise except you. Sure your opinion may be strayed by your disdain for a fighter, but this is a boxing forum, Im entitiled to my opinion, whether you agree with it or not. :goodCut the crap
1 Bowe won the title from Holyfield yes due more to Holyfield stupidly fighting Bowes fight rather then boxing him . Bowe was undisputed for a short time then broke up the belts with his DUCKING of Lewis defending against third tier contenders then fighting and losing to holy in the rematch.

2 In one of most puncher laden HW eras Bowe suspiciuosly avoided/ducked most of them .

3 lack of discipline is a pathetic excuse and even the most most disciplined Bowe had huge holes in his game.

4 Bowe would have a small chance against pre steward Lewis His lack of defense and inability to handle a jab might see him destroyed against even pre steward Lewis.

5 Lewis beat the better class of fighters period nearly every legit puncher at HW was beaten by Lewis .

6 Lewis is a minimum lower top 10 ATG HW Bowe is lower top 15 If he lost the holyfield trilogy he barely makes the top 20

7 What chances did Bowe take ? he blatantly ducked Lewis by throwing his belt away.

You are entitled to your opinion however deluded it might be.

[lefthook31]

Cut the crap
1 Bowe won the title from Holyfield yes due more to Holyfield stupidly fighting Bowes fight rather then boxing him . Bowe was undisputed for a short time then broke up the belts with his DUCKING of Lewis defending against third tier contenders then fighting and losing to holy in the rematch.
He only won the title based on Holyfields stupidity. The second fight was a total outclassing of Bowe by Holyfield right?:huh
2 In one of most puncher laden HW eras Bowe suspiciuosly avoided/ducked most of them .
Such as who? Please name who he avoided??? Again he won the title from the current undisputed champion who was considered the top heavyweight at the time
3 lack of discipline is a pathetic excuse and even the most most disciplined Bowe had huge holes in his game.
BS not true at all.

4 Bowe would have a small chance against pre steward Lewis His lack of defense and inability to handle a jab might see him destroyed against even pre steward Lewis.
So your saying Mcall and Bruno are leagues ahead of Bowe, and also could have beaten Evander Holyfield at his best?
Inability to handle the jab, in what fight? His razor close decision loss in the second fight to Holy, even though he won two of three.
5 Lewis beat the better class of fighters period nearly every legit puncher at HW was beaten by Lewis .
Overall with exception to Holyfield yes, although some of his better competition wins were questionable as well. Mercer and Bruno.

6 Lewis is a minimum lower top 10 ATG HW Bowe is lower top 15 If he lost the holyfield trilogy he barely makes the top 20
Agree, Bowe is not rated over Lewis, although Lewis is not in my lower top 10
7 What chances did Bowe take ? he blatantly ducked Lewis by throwing his belt away.
Read my post, Said he took chances in fights to to actually make them exciting which was in stark contrast to Lewis.
You are entitled to your opinion however deluded it might be.
Ditto!:good

[lefthook31]

Cut the crap
1 Bowe won the title from Holyfield yes due more to Holyfield stupidly fighting Bowes fight rather then boxing him . Bowe was undisputed for a short time then broke up the belts with his DUCKING of Lewis defending against third tier contenders then fighting and losing to holy in the rematch.

2 In one of most puncher laden HW eras Bowe suspiciuosly avoided/ducked most of them .

3 lack of discipline is a pathetic excuse and even the most most disciplined Bowe had huge holes in his game.

4 Bowe would have a small chance against pre steward Lewis His lack of defense and inability to handle a jab might see him destroyed against even pre steward Lewis.

5 Lewis beat the better class of fighters period nearly every legit puncher at HW was beaten by Lewis .

6 Lewis is a minimum lower top 10 ATG HW Bowe is lower top 15 If he lost the holyfield trilogy he barely makes the top 20

7 What chances did Bowe take ? he blatantly ducked Lewis by throwing his belt away.

You are entitled to your opinion however deluded it might be.
Read answers to your biased comments in the box above.

[mr. magoo]

Seeing left hook get his ass reemed by everybody is hilarious :lol::D:yep:rofl:hammertime:bananamaniac:ldevil:dance:arran:mj:smh

[SuzieQ49]

Bowe struggled mightily with the much smaller and older Evander Holyfield,

Now Maghoo lets not get ahead of ourselves here. Though you have made some outstanding points in this thread, I think your emotions got the best of you on this one. Bowe fought a Prime 6-7 years younger Evander Holyfield than the one Lennox fought. In both of his wins, Bowe won a wide unanimous decision over UNDEFEATED 29 year old HW champion Holyfield beating him on the cards worse than Lennox ever did, and in the 3rd fight he did something Lennox never did to a much older holyfield...He knocked Evander out. In both of Lennox's wins over a 37 year old Evander Holyfield(who could not win a trilogy over John Ruiz in his next fights).....Lennox was unable to FLOOR holyfield, not a good mark for a ATG puncher. Bowe floored a younger and faster holyfield multiple times in 3 fights, while Lennox could not floor Evander once and struggled on the cards in the 2nd fight. Who would have won between Lennox and Bowe? who knows, its a damm shame it never happened. Lennox gets all the credit for bowe ducking him though, and lennox showed he had his number in the past, so lennox gets the vote here...although Lennox did show he was capable of being upset near his prime by B level heavyweights with 1 punch.



I used to box in the same gym in Brockton, Ma with Riddick Bowe and Kevin Mcbride last year. I heard alot of great stories, watched them spar, they taught me a few things, and Riddick was a great guy. But you what, Lennox defintley deserves to be rated higher than bowe. Lennox beat better competition, had better longevity, better title reign, and he proved himself h2h against much more variety of styles than bowe did.

[SuzieQ49]

4 In my estimation at the time the Bowe and Lewis fight was to happen Bowe would have beaten Lewis badly. I say this based on how Lewis performed in his future fights after winning the title.

This is a fair arguement, although Bowe would have to show up at a razor trim 235lb.

[SuzieQ49]

Seeing left hook get his ass reemed by everybody is hilarious :lol::D:yep:rofl:hammertime:bananamaniac:ldevil:dance:arran:mj:smh


Maghoo, you don't need to go there. I came into this thread with a very neutral opinion, and I think you both including LeftHook made some oustanding points defending each fighter.

[lefthook31]

[quote=mr. magoo;3873656]Seeing left hook get his ass reemed by everybody is hilarious :lol::D:yep:rofl:hammertime:bananamaniac:ldevil:dance:arran:mj:smh[/quote

Seeing you in a skirt with your arm around your brother is more so. There is plenty of Lewis nuthuggers on this forum that share the same belief as you, doesnt mean its right .

[SuzieQ49]

Bokaj,

Didn't Bowe come into the first golota fight at 252lb? he looked real soft and flabby too me, about 15-20lb overweight.

[SuzieQ49]

Seeing you in a skirt with your arm around your brother is more so..

Thats mean. why don't you edit that out before you regret it later.

[godking]

Read answers to your biased comments in the box above.
Originally Posted by godking [Only registered and activated users can see links] ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Cut the crap
1 Bowe won the title from Holyfield yes due more to Holyfield stupidly fighting Bowes fight rather then boxing him . Bowe was undisputed for a short time then broke up the belts with his DUCKING of Lewis defending against third tier contenders then fighting and losing to holy in the rematch.
He only won the title based on Holyfields stupidity. The second fight was a total outclassing of Bowe by Holyfield right?:huh The second match Holy fought like he should have in the first match and relativelly easily outboxed Bowe. Holyfield was the perfect opponent for Bowe A smallish HW who loced to brawl to much for his own Good.


2 In one of most puncher laden HW eras Bowe suspiciuosly avoided/ducked most of them .
Such as who? Please name who he avoided??? Again he won the title from the current undisputed champion who was considered the top heavyweight at the time

Morrison Tua i could name more Again Holyfield was the perfect opponent for Bowe Smallish loved to brawl and not a very heavy puncher.



3 lack of discipline is a pathetic excuse and even the most most disciplined Bowe had huge holes in his game.
BS not true at all.

Bowe had No defense and no ability to handle a jab even the disciplined best Bowe was outjabbed by everyone who jabbed with him and got 50 % connect rates against him by Journeymen Luckily for him his chin kept him alive


4 Bowe would have a small chance against pre steward Lewis His lack of defense and inability to handle a jab might see him destroyed against even pre steward Lewis.
So your saying Mcall and Bruno are leagues ahead of Bowe, and also could have beaten Evander Holyfield at his best?
Inability to handle the jab, in what fight? His razor close decision loss in the second fight to Holy, even though he won two of three.

As i said Bowe has a small chance against pre stweard Lewis.

And i am not going to waste my time pointing out Bowe glaring deficiencies again

5 Lewis beat the better class of fighters period nearly every legit puncher at HW was beaten by Lewis .
Overall with exception to Holyfield yes, although some of his better competition wins were questionable as well. Mercer and Bruno.

Bruno was winning against a young inexperienced Lewis Lewis still pulled it of . Bowe barelly got by an old Tubbs

The Mercer fight was close still Lewis won it


6 Lewis is a minimum lower top 10 ATG HW Bowe is lower top 15 If he lost the holyfield trilogy he barely makes the top 20
Agree, Bowe is not rated over Lewis, although Lewis is not in my lower top 10


7 What chances did Bowe take ? he blatantly ducked Lewis by throwing his belt away.
Read my post, Said he took chances in fights to to actually make them exciting which was in stark contrast to Lewis.

Bowe fights where exciting because he lacked the defense and foorwork to fight any other way. Lewis could either win a boring decision or destroy you because he was more skilled then Bowe

Any ''chances'' he took in fights are negated by the fact that he threw a belt away forfeiting his greatest chance at avenging a defeat to his olympic nemesis .


You are entitled to your opinion however deluded it might be.

[mr. magoo]

Thats mean. why don't you edit that out before you regret it later.


Don't worry about it Suzie, watching this dude get all upset is more fun than having front row seats to Klitschko vs Haye, with a hooker on either side of me and free alchohol all night.........

Actually come to think of it, its not quite that good, but let's say it comes close..........

[mr. magoo]

There is plenty of Lewis nuthuggers on this forum that share the same belief as you.

Did you by any chance mean that there are plenty of nuthuggers on this forum?

Another ignorant ass. Anyway, my response to that is, at least Lewis had a set of nuts to swing FROM, as opposed to your butt boy Bowe who didn't have the balls to defend against a mandatory...:good

[mcvey]

With his lack of defense even at his best Bowe would be in Hell against Tyson.


Tyson had trouble with guys who PREVENTED him from landing on them not guys who tried to brawl with him. Bowes penchant to brawl and lack of defense and footwork would play right in Tysons hands.

Ruddock gave him all he wanted and he brawled with him.

[mcvey]

How great could he have become? Would he have Beat Tyson?
I think he had the potential to be as good as Lennox Lewis wherever you rate him.Bowe was as good inside as I have seen for a big man but lacked the dedication .

[ChrisPontius]

Now Maghoo lets not get ahead of ourselves here. Though you have made some outstanding points in this thread, I think your emotions got the best of you on this one. Bowe fought a Prime 6-7 years younger Evander Holyfield than the one Lennox fought. In both of his wins, Bowe won a wide unanimous decision over UNDEFEATED 29 year old HW champion Holyfield beating him on the cards worse than Lennox ever did, and in the 3rd fight he did something Lennox never did to a much older holyfield...He knocked Evander out. In both of Lennox's wins over a 37 year old Evander Holyfield(who could not win a trilogy over John Ruiz in his next fights).....Lennox was unable to FLOOR holyfield, not a good mark for a ATG puncher. Bowe floored a younger and faster holyfield multiple times in 3 fights, while Lennox could not floor Evander once and struggled on the cards in the 2nd fight. Who would have won between Lennox and Bowe? who knows, its a damm shame it never happened. Lennox gets all the credit for bowe ducking him though, and lennox showed he had his number in the past, so lennox gets the vote here...although Lennox did show he was capable of being upset near his prime by B level heavyweights with 1 punch.





A few comments:

1. After his first loss, Holyfield added weight, became stronger and a bigger puncher (knocked down Bowe, Mercer & Tyson) and he became a smarter fighter as well.

2. Although Lewis didn't have Holyfield on the canvas, he did hurt him badly and on a fair scorecard, beat him at least as easily as Bowe did the first time.

3. The Bowe-Holyfield rematch was a loss for Bowe. This was a non-sick, post-bulk up Holyfield.

4. The only reason Bowe won the rubber match is because of Holyfield's sickness. He was having his way with the big man until he suddenly couldn't throw punches anymore, from the 4th on. Bowe was completely out on his feet in the 6th, but Evander didn't have anything left and couldn't finish him. Cortez even admitted that he was an inch away from stopping it, but Holyfield did nothing.

So, while Bowe wins the series by 2-1, the victory was more because of Holyfield not being fit to fight rather than because of his ability. Holyfield outboxed Bowe whenever he elected to box... which he rarely did during the first, but often during the second; and won.

Holyfield never beat Lewis, even when Lewis fought Holyfield's fight, on HIS home turf.

[lefthook31]

Now Maghoo lets not get ahead of ourselves here. Though you have made some outstanding points in this thread, I think your emotions got the best of you on this one. Bowe fought a Prime 6-7 years younger Evander Holyfield than the one Lennox fought. In both of his wins, Bowe won a wide unanimous decision over UNDEFEATED 29 year old HW champion Holyfield beating him on the cards worse than Lennox ever did, and in the 3rd fight he did something Lennox never did to a much older holyfield...He knocked Evander out. In both of Lennox's wins over a 37 year old Evander Holyfield(who could not win a trilogy over John Ruiz in his next fights).....Lennox was unable to FLOOR holyfield, not a good mark for a ATG puncher. Bowe floored a younger and faster holyfield multiple times in 3 fights, while Lennox could not floor Evander once and struggled on the cards in the 2nd fight. Who would have won between Lennox and Bowe? who knows, its a damm shame it never happened. Lennox gets all the credit for bowe ducking him though, and lennox showed he had his number in the past, so lennox gets the vote here...although Lennox did show he was capable of being upset near his prime by B level heavyweights with 1 punch.



I used to box in the same gym in Brockton, Ma with Riddick Bowe and Kevin Mcbride last year. I heard alot of great stories, watched them spar, they taught me a few things, and Riddick was a great guy. But you what, Lennox defintley deserves to be rated higher than bowe. Lennox beat better competition, had better longevity, better title reign, and he proved himself h2h against much more variety of styles than bowe did.

I think I pretty much pointed out all this in my posts. Some on this forum chose to spin it into something else. My points are spot on, and for the most part true with some of my own opinion mixed in. Its always the passionate Lewis fans that take it to an extreme, most likely, because most of Lewis's legacy, is based on what could have been had he faced so and so in their respective primes. Things most likely would have been different if he didnt get knocked out by Mcall. He simply had a bad string of bad luck. Should Bowe have fought Lewis right after the first Holyfield fight, for the fans probably, but not necessarily for smart buisness. This did turn out to be a black eye on Bowes career, but what champion in the recent history of boxing didnt try and milk the title to make a few extra bucks before taking on another top challenger? Would the fans want to see any other fight besides Bowe and Holy in the rematch based on their first fight at that time? Beside facing Lewis right after Holyfield there was no other fights for Bowe, he didnt duck anyone, the time frame of his whole prime was too short. His career like Tyson's was very short, and like Tyson his lack of discipline as a fighter held him back from achieving his full potential. For Godking to say he had no chance against Lewis at the time the fight would have occured, after beating the best in the division, shows how ignorantly biased he is as well. After winning the title Lewis was almost stopped in his first defense, and was stopped in his third, which was proof positive to not only me but Lewis himself, that he was not as good as he thought, thus the reason for making a change in his corner.
Lewis will always go down in history in my opinion as being fairly dominant over a decent but not great group of contenders, and by no fault of his own facing two all time greats past their respective primes, and missing out on a career defining fight against Bowe, which by the looks of where his skill level was at the time, was lucky for him.

[mr. magoo]

Lennox Lewis needs to be heavily favored against Riddick Bowe in head to head matchups. That's all I have to say.

[lefthook31]

Originally Posted by godking [Only registered and activated users can see links] ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Cut the crap
1 Bowe won the title from Holyfield yes due more to Holyfield stupidly fighting Bowes fight rather then boxing him . Bowe was undisputed for a short time then broke up the belts with his DUCKING of Lewis defending against third tier contenders then fighting and losing to holy in the rematch.
He only won the title based on Holyfields stupidity. The second fight was a total outclassing of Bowe by Holyfield right?:huh The second match Holy fought like he should have in the first match and relativelly easily outboxed Bowe. Holyfield was the perfect opponent for Bowe A smallish HW who loced to brawl to much for his own Good.


2 In one of most puncher laden HW eras Bowe suspiciuosly avoided/ducked most of them .
Such as who? Please name who he avoided??? Again he won the title from the current undisputed champion who was considered the top heavyweight at the time

Morrison Tua i could name more Again Holyfield was the perfect opponent for Bowe Smallish loved to brawl and not a very heavy puncher.



3 lack of discipline is a pathetic excuse and even the most most disciplined Bowe had huge holes in his game.
BS not true at all.

Bowe had No defense and no ability to handle a jab even the disciplined best Bowe was outjabbed by everyone who jabbed with him and got 50 % connect rates against him by Journeymen Luckily for him his chin kept him alive


4 Bowe would have a small chance against pre steward Lewis His lack of defense and inability to handle a jab might see him destroyed against even pre steward Lewis.
So your saying Mcall and Bruno are leagues ahead of Bowe, and also could have beaten Evander Holyfield at his best?
Inability to handle the jab, in what fight? His razor close decision loss in the second fight to Holy, even though he won two of three.

As i said Bowe has a small chance against pre stweard Lewis.

And i am not going to waste my time pointing out Bowe glaring deficiencies again

5 Lewis beat the better class of fighters period nearly every legit puncher at HW was beaten by Lewis .
Overall with exception to Holyfield yes, although some of his better competition wins were questionable as well. Mercer and Bruno.

Bruno was winning against a young inexperienced Lewis Lewis still pulled it of . Bowe barelly got by an old Tubbs

The Mercer fight was close still Lewis won it


6 Lewis is a minimum lower top 10 ATG HW Bowe is lower top 15 If he lost the holyfield trilogy he barely makes the top 20
Agree, Bowe is not rated over Lewis, although Lewis is not in my lower top 10


7 What chances did Bowe take ? he blatantly ducked Lewis by throwing his belt away.
Read my post, Said he took chances in fights to to actually make them exciting which was in stark contrast to Lewis.

Bowe fights where exciting because he lacked the defense and foorwork to fight any other way. Lewis could either win a boring decision or destroy you because he was more skilled then Bowe

Any ''chances'' he took in fights are negated by the fact that he threw a belt away forfeiting his greatest chance at avenging a defeat to his olympic nemesis .


You are entitled to your opinion however deluded it might be.

This is biased comedy. Now your reaching. He avoided Morrison and Tua? Was Tua even in the top ten before Bowe retired? Morrison?? :lol:

[SuzieQ49]

Bowe would have killed Tommy HIV Morrison with the first punch landed. David Tua was nothing more than an Embryo when Bowe Retired...unless you want to accuse the comeback 40 year old bowe of 2007 of ducking Tua. Now I knew Riddick Personally last year, and that old bugger will get in the ring with anyone!

[lefthook31]

Did you by any chance mean that there are plenty of nuthuggers on this forum?

Another ignorant ass. Anyway, my response to that is, at least Lewis had a set of nuts to swing FROM, as opposed to your butt boy Bowe who didn't have the balls to defend against a mandatory...:good
Me upset? Who resorted to the flame throwing first? We can make this as personal as you want Magoo. If you want to talk boxing and respect each others opinion, Im all for it, but Im not going to let you talk to me in the language you have been without firing back.

[SuzieQ49]

A few comments:

1. After his first loss, Holyfield added weight, became stronger and a bigger puncher (knocked down Bowe, Mercer & Tyson) and he became a smarter fighter as well.

.

Thats a fair asssumption, but don't you think the speed and reflexes and 10 punch combination punching traits he lost, are more valuable things needed to beat a prime lennox lewis?


2. Although Lewis didn't have Holyfield on the canvas, he did hurt him badly and on a fair scorecard, beat him at least as easily as Bowe did the first time.


what round of what fight did he hurt him badly? I will have to retake a look




3. The Bowe-Holyfield rematch was a loss for Bowe. This was a non-sick, post-bulk up Holyfield.



Yes. but then I could turn around and say the FanMan fiasco saved holyfield, and ruined the momentum Bowe had. Also, this fight was very close I think i had holyfield by only one point. Also we must take into consideration bowe showed up an overweight 246lb for the rematch with flab around his upperbody, what happened to the trim 235lb bowe?


4. The only reason Bowe won the rubber match is because of Holyfield's sickness. He was having his way with the big man until he suddenly couldn't throw punches anymore, from the 4th on. Bowe was completely out on his feet in the 6th, but Evander didn't have anything left and couldn't finish him. Cortez even admitted that he was an inch away from stopping it, but Holyfield did nothing.


This is a fair arguement to make, and from watching the film, I can't entirely disagree with you, there was defintley something wrong with Evander. He had no energy to finish bowe after he knocked him down, he should have stopped bowe in the 6th.

[lefthook31]

A few comments:

1. After his first loss, Holyfield added weight, became stronger and a bigger puncher (knocked down Bowe, Mercer & Tyson) and he became a smarter fighter as well.

2. Although Lewis didn't have Holyfield on the canvas, he did hurt him badly and on a fair scorecard, beat him at least as easily as Bowe did the first time.

3. The Bowe-Holyfield rematch was a loss for Bowe. This was a non-sick, post-bulk up Holyfield.

4. The only reason Bowe won the rubber match is because of Holyfield's sickness. He was having his way with the big man until he suddenly couldn't throw punches anymore, from the 4th on. Bowe was completely out on his feet in the 6th, but Evander didn't have anything left and couldn't finish him. Cortez even admitted that he was an inch away from stopping it, but Holyfield did nothing.

So, while Bowe wins the series by 2-1, the victory was more because of Holyfield not being fit to fight rather than because of his ability. Holyfield outboxed Bowe whenever he elected to box... which he rarely did during the first, but often during the second; and won.

Holyfield never beat Lewis, even when Lewis fought Holyfield's fight, on HIS home turf.

This is a very skewed way of looking at Bowe and Holyfield, and most of it not true.

[lefthook31]

Thats a fair asssumption, but don't you think the speed and reflexes and 10 punch combination punching traits he lost, are more valuable things needed to beat a prime lennox lewis?



what round of what fight did he hurt him badly? I will have to retake a look




Yes. but then I could turn around and say the FanMan fiasco saved holyfield, and ruined the momentum Bowe had. Also, this fight was very close I think i had holyfield by only one point. Also we must take into consideration bowe showed up an overweight 246lb for the rematch with flab around his upperbody, what happened to the trim 235lb bowe?



This is a fair arguement to make, and from watching the film, I can't entirely disagree with you, there was defintley something wrong with Evander. He had no energy to finish bowe after he knocked him down, he should have stopped bowe in the 6th.
You could also say that bowe came into the second fight in worse shape. The second fight was very close, it was not a slam dunk win for Evander.
By the third fight Bowe was shot and still stopped Evander.

[Bokaj]

Bokaj,

Didn't Bowe come into the first golota fight at 252lb? he looked real soft and flabby too me, about 15-20lb overweight.


Yeah, he was obviously out of shape for that one. And, as I stated, had he performed in the rematch I would put the first one down to slack preparations. But having that much problems with Golota even in the second fight, after coming off one of his best wins, does suggest something.

[SuzieQ49]

Watch Holyfield-Bowe HBO legenary nights. they show Bowe interviewed in 1992 before First Evander Fight, then they showe Bowe interviewd in 1996 after first Golota fight...and the difference in his voice is sickening. real sickening. In 1992 he sounds very joyful like a kid. in 1996 his voice is that of a old punchy man. His voice to this day is very blurry. Only a 40 year old man. Sad. Even in 3rd Holyfield fight, bowes reflexes and everything looks declined. I dont know when it started, but him killing himself to lose weight all the time probably had something to do with it, or maybe all the punches he took in the first two holyfield fights. But he looked nothing compared to the 1992 Riddick Bowe.

[Bokaj]

Watch Holyfield-Bowe HBO legenary nights. they show Bowe interviewed in 1992 before First Evander Fight, then they showe Bowe interviewd in 1996 after first Golota fight...and the difference in his voice is sickening. real sickening. In 1992 he sounds very joyful like a kid. in 1996 his voice is that of a old punchy man. His voice to this day is very blurry. Only a 40 year old man. Sad. Even in 3rd Holyfield fight, bowes reflexes and everything looks declined. I dont know when it started, but him killing himself to lose weight all the time probably had something to do with it, or maybe all the punches he took in the first two holyfield fights. But he looked nothing compared to the 1992 Riddick Bowe.

Then he declined very quickly. I've only watched Bowe-Holyfield III once and what I chiefly remember from that one is the very nice, well timed left he put Evander away with. He sure didn't look shot, even though he probably was past his best.

Well, who knows. But the truth is that Bowe's lack of top opposition makes him hard to gauge really. Golota was pehaps his second best opponent. If he had performed well earlier against several similar opponents the Golota fights would be easier to excuse, but...

Of course, if his speech had started to detoriate that does count for something.

[SuzieQ49]

Of course, if his speech had started to detoriate that does count for something.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Watch 2:23 onward

[ChrisPontius]

Thats a fair asssumption, but don't you think the speed and reflexes and 10 punch combination punching traits he lost, are more valuable things needed to beat a prime lennox lewis?


Well, i think the smaller Holyfield lacked the strength, power and perhaps endurance to hang in there with the big, skilled boys like Lewis. He was doing fairly well against Bowe during the first 5 rounds, but it soon became apparent that Bowe, despite being outlanded 2:1, kept going stronger whereas Holyfield couldn't keep him off and was being worn down.

In his fight with Foreman, it was again clear that despite vast superiority in the technical and speed department, he couldn't keep Foreman off, and that was a 42 year old man, although a special one of course. Don't get me wrong, i think very highly of Holyfield, but i think he improved a lot as a heavyweight from the Bowe rematch on, even if he was slowing down a bit.

For skilled slicksters like Charles, Patterson, Walcott, Schmeling, or even Ali and Holmes, i'd have more confidence in the '90-'92 Holyfield because his (relative) lack of power would be less of a factor against them, where his higher workrate as well as speed could be a deciding factor in some of those matches. However, to take on guys like Tyson, Lewis and Bowe, i'd want him to bulk up a bit, as well as have that "fight smart instead of slugging" knowledge that he seemed to have later.




what round of what fight did he hurt him badly? I will have to retake a look


Several times, but most notably during the 5th round.

RmY3ETkp7N0


Sidenote: Eugenia Williams actually scored this round for Holyfield. :lol: Boxing can be so disgracefully corrupt that sometimes it makes me ashamed to be a fan.

Watch early in the round when Holyfield throws a leaping left hook, which Lewis counters with a right hand... right on the back of the head when Holyfield turned away a bit. But he immediately follows up with a right uppercut to the jaw and a right hook to the body. Those who say Lewis has no infighting ability take note... how many do you see throw a triple right hand including an uppercut, that fast and fluid?



Yes. but then I could turn around and say the FanMan fiasco saved holyfield, and ruined the momentum Bowe had. Also, this fight was very close I think i had holyfield by only one point. Also we must take into consideration bowe showed up an overweight 246lb for the rematch with flab around his upperbody, what happened to the trim 235lb bowe?


True, although Bowe, at 246lbs, could use a breather as well. I made a poll about who profited most from the fan-man incident, and it was pretty much even. One can make an argument for both.

The fight was very close indeed. It's fair to say that Bowe beat Holyfield easier than vice-versa. But whenever i see their fights, i can't help but think "Holyfield could take him if only he stuck to his boxing!". Easier said than done i guess, keeping a big man like Bowe off you for 12 rounds is one hell of a task.

[ChrisPontius]

The "Legendary nights tale of..." are fucking awesome. I think i've seen every episode at least 4 times. Whether you like HBO or not, they bring some quality productions.

[Bokaj]

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Watch 2:23 onward

Really sad. But was it primarily after the Golota II that he started speaking like that? Because those two must have been among his most punishing fights.

[SuzieQ49]

I swear pontius, sometimes you just dont realize just how close your opinions are with mine. Maybe its the new youth generation.

[McGrain]

Well, i think the smaller Holyfield lacked the strength, power and perhaps endurance to hang in there with the big, skilled boys like Lewis. He was doing fairly well against Bowe during the first 5 rounds, but it soon became apparent that Bowe, despite being outlanded 2:1, kept going stronger whereas Holyfield couldn't keep him off and was being worn down.

In his fight with Foreman, it was again clear that despite vast superiority in the technical and speed department, he couldn't keep Foreman off, and that was a 42 year old man, although a special one of course. Don't get me wrong, i think very highly of Holyfield, but i think he improved a lot as a heavyweight from the Bowe rematch on, even if he was slowing down a bit.

For skilled slicksters like Charles, Patterson, Walcott, Schmeling, or even Ali and Holmes, i'd have more confidence in the '90-'92 Holyfield because his (relative) lack of power would be less of a factor against them, where his higher workrate as well as speed could be a deciding factor in some of those matches. However, to take on guys like Tyson, Lewis and Bowe, i'd want him to bulk up a bit, as well as have that "fight smart instead of slugging" knowledge that he seemed to have later.





Several times, but most notably during the 5th round.

RmY3ETkp7N0


Sidenote: Eugenia Williams actually scored this round for Holyfield. :lol: Boxing can be so disgracefully corrupt that sometimes it makes me ashamed to be a fan.

Watch early in the round when Holyfield throws a leaping left hook, which Lewis counters with a right hand... right on the back of the head when Holyfield turned away a bit. But he immediately follows up with a right uppercut to the jaw and a right hook to the body. Those who say Lewis has no infighting ability take note... how many do you see throw a triple right hand including an uppercut, that fast and fluid?




True, although Bowe, at 246lbs, could use a breather as well. I made a poll about who profited most from the fan-man incident, and it was pretty much even. One can make an argument for both.

The fight was very close indeed. It's fair to say that Bowe beat Holyfield easier than vice-versa. But whenever i see their fights, i can't help but think "Holyfield could take him if only he stuck to his boxing!". Easier said than done i guess, keeping a big man like Bowe off you for 12 rounds is one hell of a task.


That's a good post.

[rydersonthestorm]

Personally I think the best Bowe beats any version of Lennox Lewis. He had that extra intangible, that Lennox never developed, and could easily engage a fighter who liked to operate from the outside into a full slugging match and inside fight when he used his jab properly. He was so big and savvy on the inside, Lewis would have had a hard time holding on the inside.
he obviously doesn't as lennox tkoed him in the olympic final;)

[lefthook31]

he obviously doesn't as lennox tkoed him in the olympic final;)
Ah here we go again. Do you really think Bowe was the same exact fighter after developing his entire pro career under Eddie Futch? Ill also ask you the same question about lennox Lewis. Do you really think he was the same exact fighter under Correa as he was under Emanuel Steward?

[lefthook31]

Then he declined very quickly. I've only watched Bowe-Holyfield III once and what I chiefly remember from that one is the very nice, well timed left he put Evander away with. He sure didn't look shot, even though he probably was past his best.

Well, who knows. But the truth is that Bowe's lack of top opposition makes him hard to gauge really. Golota was pehaps his second best opponent. If he had performed well earlier against several similar opponents the Golota fights would be easier to excuse, but...

Of course, if his speech had started to detoriate that does count for something.
Holyfield could box from the outside, but Riddick could as well, but that was not his primary fighting style. He basically forced Holyfield to fight the way he did, thats why their styles matched up so nicely for a great fight. To me the second fight was a continuation of the first, there wasnt huge style changes. Being smaller Holyfield was a little smarter by not brawling as much. Bowe used an excellent jab to get inside and work upper cuts and body shots.
As far as his decline, he did decline quickly, just as Meldrick Taylor did. Its different for all fighters, but I believe lack of conditioning such as with the case of Riddick Bowe, where he took off 50-60 pounds between fights was also a huge factor. You lose your speed, reflexes, and ultimately your chin. Look at guys like Hopkins, and Holyfield, they were able to compete into their 40's because they stayed in shape. For the most part Lewis kept himself in good shape, but look what happened when he came in soft against Rahman.

[lefthook31]

Well, i think the smaller Holyfield lacked the strength, power and perhaps endurance to hang in there with the big, skilled boys like Lewis. He was doing fairly well against Bowe during the first 5 rounds, but it soon became apparent that Bowe, despite being outlanded 2:1, kept going stronger whereas Holyfield couldn't keep him off and was being worn down.

In his fight with Foreman, it was again clear that despite vast superiority in the technical and speed department, he couldn't keep Foreman off, and that was a 42 year old man, although a special one of course. Don't get me wrong, i think very highly of Holyfield, but i think he improved a lot as a heavyweight from the Bowe rematch on, even if he was slowing down a bit.

For skilled slicksters like Charles, Patterson, Walcott, Schmeling, or even Ali and Holmes, i'd have more confidence in the '90-'92 Holyfield because his (relative) lack of power would be less of a factor against them, where his higher workrate as well as speed could be a deciding factor in some of those matches. However, to take on guys like Tyson, Lewis and Bowe, i'd want him to bulk up a bit, as well as have that "fight smart instead of slugging" knowledge that he seemed to have later.





Several times, but most notably during the 5th round.

RmY3ETkp7N0


Sidenote: Eugenia Williams actually scored this round for Holyfield. :lol: Boxing can be so disgracefully corrupt that sometimes it makes me ashamed to be a fan.

Watch early in the round when Holyfield throws a leaping left hook, which Lewis counters with a right hand... right on the back of the head when Holyfield turned away a bit. But he immediately follows up with a right uppercut to the jaw and a right hook to the body. Those who say Lewis has no infighting ability take note... how many do you see throw a triple right hand including an uppercut, that fast and fluid?




True, although Bowe, at 246lbs, could use a breather as well. I made a poll about who profited most from the fan-man incident, and it was pretty much even. One can make an argument for both.

The fight was very close indeed. It's fair to say that Bowe beat Holyfield easier than vice-versa. But whenever i see their fights, i can't help but think "Holyfield could take him if only he stuck to his boxing!". Easier said than done i guess, keeping a big man like Bowe off you for 12 rounds is one hell of a task.
To me this is what it looks like when Holyfield is hurt. A lot of that was bating. and on a side note I forgot how high Lewis' protective belt was. Any higher and he would be wearing full body armor.
[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[rydersonthestorm]

Ah here we go again. Do you really think Bowe was the same exact fighter after developing his entire pro career under Eddie Futch? Ill also ask you the same question about lennox Lewis. Do you really think he was the same exact fighter under Correa as he was under Emanuel Steward?
you said any version of bowe beats him thats my point ;)

[lefthook31]

you said any version of bowe beats him thats my point ;)
I dont remember saying that? Im well aware of their olympic fight. I do believe the best Bowe beats any version of Lennox Lewis, but Bowe was only great for a short period of time.

[rydersonthestorm]

I dont remember saying that? Im well aware of their olympic fight. I do believe the best Bowe beats any version of Lennox Lewis, but Bowe was only great for a short period of time.
Honestly because i quoted it in the first post i made:lol:

[rydersonthestorm]

personally i think the best bowe beats any version of lennox lewis. he had that extra intangible, that lennox never developed, and could easily engage a fighter who liked to operate from the outside into a full slugging match and inside fight when he used his jab properly. He was so big and savvy on the inside, lewis would have had a hard time holding on the inside.
:d

[lefthook31]

:d


Yes and that was talking about their pro careers.

[purplestuff]

And they both lose to Gonzalez in the amateurs.

What's the point?

its kinda funny how he goes on to willingly rematch gonzalez in the pros, while throwing his belt in a trash can to avoid lewis.

this is part of the reason why i never buy the theory of bowe having the talent to beat lewis but not having the confidence to fight him due to his loss to the big brit in the ams.

[PowerPuncher]

Im not really trying to defend him, nor did I plan on personally attacking Mr Magoo. He turned it into that. For some reason he thinks I believe Bowe accomplished more than Lewis. My feelings like Ive been posting all along, are the following:
1, Bowe became a better pro quicker than Lewis, as evidence by winning the title over what was considered the best heavyweight at the time, defending his title and then losing it in a close decision in the rematch to the very same fighter. This in contrast to Lewis winning the title from Tucker, struggling in his first defense against Bruno, and then getting knocked out by Mcall two fights later.
2, Besides Lewis, (which can be debated whether it was Bowe or his management) Bowe did not duck any other fighter during his accent to the title and after winning the title.
3. Bowes career was vastly shortened by his lack of discipline and ability to keep his weight in check, which became evident after the first Holyfield fight, when Bowe took large amounts of time off to visit Africa and other world countries.
4 In my estimation at the time the Bowe and Lewis fight was to happen Bowe would have beaten Lewis badly. I say this based on how Lewis performed in his future fights after winning the title.
5. Although not the same fighters, all the fringe contenders and former and future champs that both guys beat "handidly", all accomplished about the same in the sport as each other, some being better boxers, some being bigger punchers, but record wise and talent wise, they can all be grouped in the same category. This did not include a fighter on the level of a Mcall, Mercer, or Bruno.
6. Lennox Lewis did fight more of them, including an upper echelon of contenders such as Mcall, Mercer and Bruno, and established himself as more of a reigining champ and overall would be ranked ahead of Bowe in the ATG list.
7. Being a fan of fighting, I appreciated a fighter like Bowe who was willing to take chances against the better fighters and use all his skills from the inside and out, which was in stark contrast to Lewis, who I did not enjoy watching taking the safe route to most of his significant wins.
Overall I think there is a lot of people who share my same opinion. I dont see most of the people following this thread saying otherwise except you. Sure your opinion may be strayed by your disdain for a fighter, but this is a boxing forum, Im entitiled to my opinion, whether you agree with it or not. :good

1. No he didn't Lennox in 1991 was beating a top5 HW in Mason while Bowe was facing fringe past it fighters. Lennox took 3rounds on Biggs, where Bowe took 8. In 1992 Lennox destroyed many people's no1 HW in Rudduck while Bowe was going life and death with the 205lb Holyfield. Both lost in the next 2 years but Lennox would never come close to losing to Holyfield like Bowe did

2. Bowe ducked/avoided/didn't face Lennox/Mercer/Rudduck/Bruno/Morrison/ Foreman/Holmes/McCall/ he faced pure dross and avoided punchers outside of Holyfield who he had a number for in a way

3. Woulda/coulda/shoulda, he was out of shape but being in shape is part of being a top boxer, he wasn't that far removed from a year earlier

4. Based on the fact Bowe ducked Lewis, lost to him in the amateurs, Bowe avoided punchers, Bowe had a leaky defense and Lennox was a superior boxer, much faster, more proven chin and more athletic I see how you'd go with Bowe on that 1

5. Vitali, Golota, Tyson, Rudduck, Tua, Rahman, McCall, Bruno, Briggs, Akiwande, Grant are all better than Bowe's second best none gifted win.

6. At least a bit of perspective

7. Early Lennox was exciting and he was in some brawls and scored spectacular KOs but he did become cautious/calculated at times. At least Lennox fought big punchers, Bowe didn't. But fair play we all have out favourates

[lefthook31]

its kinda funny how he goes on to willingly rematch gonzalez in the pros, while throwing his belt in a trash can to avoid lewis.

this is part of the reason why i never buy the theory of bowe having the talent to beat lewis but not having the confidence to fight him due to his loss to the big brit in the ams.
That was way down the line and close to when Lewis was knocked out by Mcall. Both fighters were in rebuilding stages at that time. The fight would have happened down the line for sure had Bowes career not been cut short.
I would still like to know what champion in recent history didnt try and make a few extra bucks with easier defenses once winning the title? Can you really blame Bowe for taking a couple easier fights. Holy fought Foreman Cooper and Holmes for big paydays. Tyson, went for Seldon and Holyfield, and even Lewis avoided Byrd to fight Kirk Johnson in Canada, not to mention he went to Wembley for a big payday against Bruno after beating Tucker for his first title, and then fought Phil Jackson. They all did it. Had Lewis not gotten knocked out by Mcall, HBO would have made the fight into a huge payday for both fighters, remember Lewis was not that well known in the states at that time.

[PowerPuncher]

That was way down the line and close to when Lewis was knocked out by Mcall. Both fighters were in rebuilding stages at that time. The fight would have happened down the line for sure had Bowes career not been cut short.
I would still like to know what champion in recent history didnt try and make a few extra bucks with easier defenses once winning the title? Can you really blame Bowe for taking a couple easier fights. Holy fought Foreman Cooper and Holmes for big paydays. Tyson, went for Seldon and Holyfield, and even Lewis avoided Byrd to fight Kirk Johnson in Canada, not to mention he went to Wembley for a big payday against Bruno after beating Tucker for his first title, and then fought Phil Jackson. They all did it. Had Lewis not gotten knocked out by Mcall, HBO would have made the fight into a huge payday for both fighters, remember Lewis was not that well known in the states at that time.

Yes you can blame Bowe because of the fact those 'easy defenses' you listed like Bruno, Old Foreman, Old Holmes are all better than anyone Bowe beat Holyfield aside, and you even listed Holyfield as an easy defense :nut

Your right Bowe-Lewis would have happened if Golota hadn't retired Bowe. Then again Bowe may have opted for the more lucrative Tyson/Holyfield fights and Lewis would have been left out in the cold longer

[lefthook31]

Yes you can blame Bowe because of the fact those 'easy defenses' you listed like Bruno, Old Foreman, Old Holmes are all better than anyone Bowe beat Holyfield aside, and you even listed Holyfield as an easy defense :nut

Your right Bowe-Lewis would have happened if Golota hadn't retired Bowe. Then again Bowe may have opted for the more lucrative Tyson/Holyfield fights and Lewis would have been left out in the cold longer
If you remember Holyfield was coming off the knockout loss to Bowe and had his hands full with Bobby Czyz in the Garden, same card as Lewis Mercer. Holy was put up to be cannon fodder for Tyson, so yes it was supposed to be an easy huge payday defense for Tyson. My point was that they were not top contenders in the class of Lewis, they were name opponents for big paydays. Besides another Holyfield fight which happened two fights later, there was no big names for Bowe to fight. Foreman clearly stated on HBO he wanted no part of Bowe or Lewis for that matter.

[mr. magoo]

I can't believe this thread is still in progress..

[Flea Man]

Bowe is not one of the few I think could hang with Prime Tyson, but if he'd stayed in shape and therefore shipped less shots, and it would've been HE fighting Tyson instead of Evander in '96, then yes, I think he would've won.

A lot of if's though.

[Flea Man]

And to those who say Evander fought the wrong fight the first time round, that is what Holyfield did, he liked to fight.

Bowe himself is a H2H nightmare for many, a ramrod jab and a good insight fighter, strength and chin, I can't see any ATG heavyweights blowing away the version of Bowe that fought Holyfield the first time.