Taylor/Pavlik/Froch (Video)

[TFFP]

Observe:

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I feel this is some of the most relevant footage available whilst trying to analyze this fight, and who will emerge victorious on Saturday.

- This was a close fight. I scored it to Pavlik by 2 rounds, an extremely good performance from Taylor in a mentally challenging scenario after the first fight.

Let's now assume that this best version of Taylor turns up, along with the Froch that fought Jean Pascal. This is fair, two of their better performances on a world level against stylistically similar operators in both cases.

- I often hear Pavlik's successes as being the blueprint for Froch winning this fight. What, if anything, does Froch do similarly to Pavlik that would suggest this is the case? In other words, what does Froch do better or on a close enough level to Pavlik?

[TFFP]

Somebody please take me up on this.

Did people see something in the Pavlik fights that reaffirms their belief Froch will win?

What is it?

I'm trying to get to the bottom of why Froch is going to win.

[Fat Joe]

I watched this fight live and was hoping JT would do the business, I thought he was doing well but faded down the stretch. I also watched Froch V Pascal again the other day, as you point out Froch is slow as fuck.

I'm a fan of both so I don't really care who wins, unless Froch can nail JT with one of those big uppercuts I think he's in for a schooling - speed kills.

[TFFP]

I watched this fight live and was hoping JT would do the business, I thought he was doing well but faded down the stretch. I also watched Froch V Pascal again the other day, as you point out Froch is slow as fuck.

I'm a fan of both so I don't really care who wins, unless Froch can nail JT with one of those big uppercuts I think he's in for a schooling - speed kills.
He did. Pavlik nicked it at the end, just the extra stamina did it for him. Taylor threw half as many punches but was generally very effective.

[Fat Joe]

Another factor is Froch's power. Is Pascal granite chinned? Or has Froch's power been overhyped? I reckon it is more the latter, and I can't see him landing as much as Pavlik because he is slower.

[GazOC]

Froch doesn't apply pressure anywhere near as effectively as Pavlik, unless Taylor has slipped (and he may well have) then I don't see Froch being able to follow Pavilks blueprint.

[TFFP]

Pascal was hurt by Omar Pitman more than he was Froch, its fair to assume he can be hurt. Froch's problem was his hands are seriously SLOW. He telegraphed everything and gave Pascal time to either partially block it or ride with the shot. He also ducked down a lot.

[TFFP]

Froch doesn't apply pressure anywhere near as effectively as Pavlik, unless Taylor has slipped (and he may well have) then I don't see Froch being able to follow Pavilks blueprint.
Absolutely!

This is the crux of the point I'm trying to illustrate. Why do I keep hearing "If Pavlik can do this..." as an argument for Froch's case?

Pavlik has by far the snappier and more consistent jab, compared to Froch. Why do I keep hearing about Froch's "long jab". Pavlik's is longer, and..well...just better.

Pavlik has by far the superior handspeed to Carl Froch, and is a more fluid combination puncher. Two things I never thought I'd be able to say.

Pavlik has a higher work-rate than Carl Froch, and a superior engine. Carl was running on fumes after 6 rounds against Pascal, Pavlik stole this fight with his incessant punching.

Pavlik keeps his hands high at all-times, picking off some of Taylor's shots. Carl Froch keeps his hands low at all-times, and eats shots. As we saw against Pascal.

Froch has a few things in his favour. His heart and desire. His being a super middleweight. The Pavlik blueprint? No.

[Grievesy]

What Pavlik did has nothing to do with it. Unfortunately for Froch I think it comes down to whether Taylor comes with the right mindset of which there is no guarantee. Also if Taylor fades then he could very well get caught late, as I feel Froch has the power to trouble him. Froch isn't in a great position considering that it really depends on how Taylor is mentally.

However I'm picking Froch because I'm really banking on Taylor not having the desire to go the 12 and win and maybe the stamina. And there's a wee bit of bias in there too but hey...:oops:

[TFFP]

Do you think Froch's stamina is better than Taylor? If so - why?

[Grievesy]

Do you think Froch's stamina is better than Taylor? If so - why?

Not particularly. But he doesn't need to really. If his chance is to stop taylor he needs one solid punch to land, to rock Taylor, then he can unload. Plus he doesn't have a very high workrate. However Taylor is going to need to out box, so he's going to need to keep throwing. Stamina I feel is more of an issue for him. He needs it more than Froch in a way. Weird perhaps but still..one punch can change everything.

[GazOC]

In these type of close fights where theres a lot of ifs and maybes I always go for the guy whose fight it is to lose. IMHO its Taylors to lose.

[TFFP]

Because you are a glass half empty kinda guy.

I go for the whos fight it is to win, looking at styles.

[GazOC]

Because you are a glass half empty kinda guy.

I go for the whos fight it is to win, looking at styles.

The way I look at it the glass half full, its Taylors fight unless he's slipped mentally/ physcially and I'm picking Taylor.

A glass half empty guy would assume Taylor had slipped and pick Froch.

[TFFP]

The way I look at it the glass half full, its Taylors fight unless he's slipped mentally/ physcially and I'm picking Taylor.

A glass half empty guy would assume Taylor had slipped and pick Froch.
At least if Froch wins you'll have something to fall back on

[GazOC]

At least if Froch wins you'll have something to fall back on

Yep, I either get my pick right or the Brit wins. Win/ win.

Deces prediction league clouds things a little, I'm doing well and I'd rather get the pick right than let my natural nationalistic fever get in the way!;)

[ninebar]

Froch has a few things in his favour. His heart and desire. His being a super middleweight. The Pavlik blueprint? No.

They could be the difference, Froch is slow, Drops his hands, and leaves his chin exposed and does not have anywhere near the skills that Jermain Taylor has, but sometimes the hungrier fighter beats the more skilled fighter and upsets the apple cart. Carl Froch is very hungry and although he's taking on a huge gamble by fighting someone as skillful as Jermain Taylor he is also taking on someone who has has past issues with focus, determination and drive. The TV setback can only make Froch more determined in this fight and although I'm hearing things from Lou DiBella about Taylor maybe walking away if he loses i dont see the same passion from him that i see in Froch.

[GazOC]

I saw that peice with DiBella, it did make it look as if Taylor didn't really want it anymore whereas Froch must realistically know the next 2 or 3 fights are his chance to secure his future. Whether that will overcome the gap in skills is another matter I suppose.

[ninebar]

I saw that peice with DiBella, it did make it look as if Taylor didn't really want it anymore whereas Froch must realistically know the next 2 or 3 fights are his chance to secure his future. Whether that will overcome the gap in skills is another matter I suppose.

Froch is pretty much being written off by everybody stateside and quite a few people on this side of the atlantic, and without a UK TV deal for the fight he must feel mighty fucking pissed off. They aren't ordinary circumstances and that's what makes me back Froch to overcome the gap in skill's and win this one. Even his own country isn't interested in picking up the fight thats surely got to be massive motivation to prove everybody wrong.

[Bodysnatcher]

The "Froch can follow Pavlik's bluprint` logic is definitely bogus - work-rate, fundamentals, both key areas Froch is nowhere near Pavlik.

However, while Froch's punches can seem slow, is his hand-speed THAT much slower than Pavlik's?

One thing I have noticed is that Froch, when he gets you on the ropes, seems to get a speed injection - like he gets a rush of blood to the head. He corners you and goes upstairs, downstairs, piles it on.

However, when Pavlik cornered and finished off Taylor, he got to that stage through a methodical approach, stunned Taylor with a carefully picked one-two, then picked his punches with Taylor covering up in the corner.

Can't see Froch being able to do any of the above - too wild, too impetuous, too telegraphed.

It's just not gonna happen for Froch, but I fully expect him to bust a gut trying to make it happen and that's why I admire the guy.

[robpalmer135]

you guys are focussing on everything good Pavlik does and everything bad Froch does. the point of this thread is the Best of Froch agaisnt the best of Pavlik.

The fact is there that when things start getting tough Taylor doesn't rise to the challenge. He could of won that fight agaisnt Pavlik without to much trouble, sure he has the skills but is he going to use it?

Also i think Froch's hand speed is allot faster than you think, he is not Floyd Mayweather but if he is that slow he would not be world champion.

to win Taylor need to get combinations of on Froch, but to do that he is going to have to take Froch's shot as Carl can walk right through Taylor. Im not saying everytime froch hits him he will go down, but taylor will not like Forch's shots, will pull out and just start using his jab and try to throw the right hand.

That is exactly what froch wants, as he can counter that right hand all day long with big eye catching shots, and in round 7-9 Froch can start pushing Taylor backwards. Then in rounds 10-12 froch can outwork and outbox a Taylor that does not want to trade or throw the right hand, just wants to Jab.

Taylor to be 4 - 2 up going into the 6th, Froch to take 5 of the last 6 rounds. But i got a feeling a dodgy decision could happen.

[TheUzi]

[quote=robpalmer135;3864411]

Also i think Froch's hand speed is allot faster than you think, he is not Floyd Mayweather but if he is that slow he would not be world champion.

quote]

Do you really feel he has fast hands?

Taylor has more than enough boxing ability to telegraph and counter him unless Taylor has problems moving up in weight. Normally,boxers with good pedigree and skills can move up no bother tho so i'd be surprised with anything other than a Taylor UD

[TFFP]

you guys are focussing on everything good Pavlik does and everything bad Froch does. the point of this thread is the Best of Froch agaisnt the best of Pavlik.

The fact is there that when things start getting tough Taylor doesn't rise to the challenge. He could of won that fight agaisnt Pavlik without to much trouble, sure he has the skills but is he going to use it?

Also i think Froch's hand speed is allot faster than you think, he is not Floyd Mayweather but if he is that slow he would not be world champion.

to win Taylor need to get combinations of on Froch, but to do that he is going to have to take Froch's shot as Carl can walk right through Taylor. Im not saying everytime froch hits him he will go down, but taylor will not like Forch's shots, will pull out and just start using his jab and try to throw the right hand.

That is exactly what froch wants, as he can counter that right hand all day long with big eye catching shots, and in round 7-9 Froch can start pushing Taylor backwards. Then in rounds 10-12 froch can outwork and outbox a Taylor that does not want to trade or throw the right hand, just wants to Jab.

Taylor to be 4 - 2 up going into the 6th, Froch to take 5 of the last 6 rounds. But i got a feeling a dodgy decision could happen.
I'm focusing on everything Pavlik does, and nearly everything he does is better than Froch. And from where I'm sitting, Taylor won 5 rounds in the rematch. What I'm saying is, if Taylor fights like this Froch has little chance.

And Bodysnatcher, I do believe Pavlik's handspeed is noticeably faster. By quite a long way actually. Especially late in the fight, Froch really looked like he was stuck in treacle when he got tired.

[robpalmer135]

Do you really feel he has fast hands?

Taylor has more than enough boxing ability to telegraph and counter him unless Taylor has problems moving up in weight. Normally,boxers with good pedigree and skills can move up no bother tho so i'd be surprised with anything other than a Taylor UD

I am not saying he is fast, but I am not saying he is slow. I think the way he throws punches is kind of unorthadox so it looks slower than it actually is. Maybe they are slow but he throws unpredicatable shots and thats why he is quite succesful, he is also very accurate.

[TFFP]

If he's so accurate with his shots why didn't he tag Pascal all that cleanly? He certainly didn't hurt Pascal as much as expected, considering Pascal's previous issues when taking shots.

[robpalmer135]

I'm focusing on everything Pavlik does, and nearly everything he does is better than Froch. And from where I'm sitting, Taylor won 5 rounds in the rematch. What I'm saying is, if Taylor fights like this Froch has little chance.

And Bodysnatcher, I do believe Pavlik's handspeed is noticeably faster. By quite a long way actually. Especially late in the fight, Froch really looked like he was stuck in treacle when he got tired.

Pavlik fights in straight line, cannot fight on the back foot, can only go forward forward forward. The same cannot be said about Froch in my opinion. I think Froch is a better ring general than Pavlik as well.

Froch like most british/european fighters throws better body shots.

Pavlik certainly is the bigger puncher and has a better defence, but Froch has better reactions, is a better coutner puncher and can take a shot better than Pavlik, i cannot see Taylor hurting Froch the way Pavlik was hurt in his 2 fights with Taylor.

Personally I think that Taylor is a much tougher fight for Froch than Pavlik would be, but thats just boxing.

[robpalmer135]

If he's so accurate with his shots why didn't he tag Pascal all that cleanly? He certainly didn't hurt Pascal as much as expected, considering Pascal's previous issues when taking shots.

you can put that down to in expirience. I think we all underrate Pascal. The guy is fighting for the WBC light heavyweight title this summer, and he will probably win.

[TFFP]

I wouldn't be so sure about that. I don't think Pascal was that great, he was good preperation for Taylor but in reality a vastly inferior version. Unless he can hurt Diaconu it will probably be a tough night for him.

I think people are correct in assuming Taylor's mindset is the key to Froch's chances. On the balance of strengths/weakness Taylor's strengths are a lot better than Froch's, and Taylor's weaknesses are all taken to another level by Froch. The intangibles are absolutely key to this fight.

[robpalmer135]

I have always fancied Froch ever since this fight was mentioned.