Luis Manuel Rodriguez vs tony mundine

[sallywinder]

must have been a torrid affair...........not.

anyone have an insight into this match? tony was ko'd in one..1!

LMR was a pretty handy fighter. fought nino benvenuti, bennie briscoe, rubin carter, emile griffith, benny paret, and others.....and beat most of them.

Luis defeated such men as Emile Griffith, Curtis Cokes, Virgil Akins, Benny "Kid" Paret, Joe Miceli, Georgie Benton, Joey Giambra, Chico Vejar, Yama Bahama, Isaac Logart, Denny Moyer, Holly Mims, Rubin Carter, Bennie Briscoe, Teddy Wright, Kid Fichique, Johnny Gonsalves, Langston Morgan, Tony Mundine, Dave Hilton and Bobby Cassidy

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[TheDuke]

Most older fans of boxing I've spoken to overseas do not hold Tony Sr in the same esteem that we do in Aus. The general consensus was a lack of heart when things got tough.

Don't shoot the messenger

[WhataRock]

LMR is one of the all time greats..One of the most underrated, underappreciated and unlucky fighters ever. The consensus is that he was robbed in at least one of the Griffith fights and Emile then went to have one of the finest careers of the time. If that series had swung the other way many more people would have been remembering the name Luis Manuel Rodriguez.

He was a welter weight though. Which doesnt score well for Mundine Sr...He was also tail end of his career aswell.

I have only heard that Mundine caught got cold...which is a fairly vague assessment, one that you could probably come to by just looking at the result.

[flamengo]

[quote=TheDuke;3864149]Most older fans of boxing I've spoken to overseas do not hold Tony Sr in the same esteem that we do in Aus. The general consensus was a lack of heart when things got tough.

Don't shoot the messenger[/quot

"The general consensus was a lack of heart..."

Duke, no point shooting the messenger.. just tell the old foks to take their medication mate. :good

Mundine snr was a gem.

[WhataRock]

I cant really ever recall a fight where Tony snr showed a lack of ticker..except maybe the Briscoe fight but really it was Benny Briscoe. He seemed always in good shape, even at the higher weights and he traveled extensively outside of his comfort zone to chase the coin.

Tony just had a weak chin for an elite fighter and it just couldnt consistently hold out at the high level he fought out.

[flamengo]

I cant really ever recall a fight where Tony snr showed a lack of ticker..except maybe the Briscoe fight but really it was Benny Briscoe. He seemed always in good shape, even at the higher weights and he traveled extensively outside of his comfort zone to chase the coin.

Tony just had a weak chin for an elite fighter and it just couldnt consistently hold out at the high level he fought out.


Week chin??

C'mon WaR...

Take a look at the men who KO'd him, and their KO records.
Tony was a great fighter, and has the credentials to be remember eternally as a great fighter.

He'd have been a GENUINE contender in ANY era, even if he appears journeyman-ish.

Perhaps the introduction of the SM/W divison is a 3 decades too late.

Mate, I do understand your opinion... just pisses me off with the 'week, glass chin' saga.

[ipswich express]

I think it's fair to say that Tony got stopped by at least a couple of guys who weren't in his class.

[WhataRock]

.

Tony just had a weak chin for an elite fighter and it just couldnt consistently hold out at the high level he fought out.

Thats the difference here. Tony was a world class fighter and compared to other world class fighters he doesnt have a strong chin.
Im not lumping him with the low level guys who get knocked out every other week..not even the low level guys who dont.

Tony got knocked out by welterweights, sometimes by fighters who werent even very good aswell...guys like Royster, Marshall and Mahanga hadnt done much when they faced Tony and would go on to do not much else.

To say he didnt have a weak chin or to suggest he had a strong one for the level he fought at does not give the fighters that did, the distinction they deserve.

[flamengo]

WaR....

Leave Mahunga out of the equation. Mundine was a novice. Simple.

Welterweights??? Loiz Rodriquez perhaps... inside the first minute of the first round... opps, caught early. Shit happens.

All shit aside, if Mundine had such a TERRIBLE chin, why the hell would he have gone close to 100 fight... predominantly against VERY regonisable names, with well credited records, and with the same lack of fate regarding their own attempts on the "WORLD TITLE" front.

Tony Mundines record is so bloody similar to that of Dave Sands, that its close to being a mirror. Sands mat not have been stopped more than 3 times, yet he performed in fluctuations.

People seem scared to 'slap the face' of Sands, yet Mundine's face is red from the bashing of all regerding his 'GLASS JAW'. Its a shame, I dont believe Australian has a better career performance, even close to the standing, since Tony Mundine.

[WhataRock]

Flame,

Im not saying he has such a terrible chin at all..Im simply stated that FOR AN ELITE FIGHTER he had a weak one.

If his chin wasnt weak for an elite fighter then so many others with a similar beard weren't either and then where do you draw the line. Does everyone have a strong chin?
Do fighters like Lamotta, Fullmer, Villasana get lumped in with fighters like Wlad, Judah and Hearns when discussing durability?
Where is the is the distinction between them if you are not allowed to say a guy who gets knocked out for the count close to 10 times prior, during and after his prime does not have a weak chin for that level of fighter?

Maybe it was the overall very solid nature of the rest of his game...great power, great speed, awesome athleticism and very good skills...thats make his chin look weaker then it is but it just wasnt a strong part of his game..the numbers dont lie and the manner in which the numbers came about dont either.

Im not sure I understand the Sands comparison either flamey...Dave had a patchy record in his teens, which one may expect but after he went through his apprenticeship and grew into a man..he essentially only lost in his prime to Teddy Yarosz and that cuts loss to a guy whose name escapes me..but I have read Sands was leading.
Dave's didnt have the stop start career of Tony..didnt have the unexpected ko losses to inferior opposition. Both did have some excellent run of wins over top shelf opposition but Dave until his death didnt have a mirror career to Tony from what I can gather.

[flamengo]

Flame,

Im not saying he has such a terrible chin at all..Im simply stated that FOR AN ELITE FIGHTER he had a weak one.

If his chin wasnt weak for an elite fighter then so many others with a similar beard weren't either and then where do you draw the line. Does everyone have a strong chin?
Do fighters like Lamotta, Fullmer, Villasana get lumped in with fighters like Wlad, Judah and Hearns when discussing durability?
Where is the is the distinction between them if you are not allowed to say a guy who gets knocked out for the count close to 10 times prior, during and after his prime does not have a weak chin for that level of fighter?

Maybe it was the overall very solid nature of the rest of his game...great power, great speed, awesome athleticism and very good skills...thats make his chin look weaker then it is but it just wasnt a strong part of his game..the numbers dont lie and the manner in which the numbers came about dont either.

Im not sure I understand the Sands comparison either flamey...Dave had a patchy record in his teens, which one may expect but after he went through his apprenticeship and grew into a man..he essentially only lost in his prime to Teddy Yarosz and that cuts loss to a guy whose name escapes me..but I have read Sands was leading.
Dave's didnt have the stop start career of Tony..didnt have the unexpected ko losses to inferior opposition. Both did have some excellent run of wins over top shelf opposition but Dave until his death didnt have a mirror career to Tony from what I can gather.

WaR.. the comparison of Sand/Mundine is the stage both men were at.. by the age of 26.

Yolande Pompei might be the name that escapes you?? Either way, both Sands and Mundine had the opportunity (for Sand's.. cut short), of meeting the best in the World at the time.

Mundine may have been a callibre below Sands, and questionably chinned by the clowns, although accomplishing such a great record is a better point to stake my own thoughts.

[COULDHAVEBEEN]

Mundine's supposed 'glass jaw' was for decades, and to some extent continues to be, a hot topic. Nothing said here will change that...there'll still be some on either side of the fence.

Nobody would question Mundine's career record, and few the fact that, had he fought in a different era, without Monzon and perhaps with the addition of alphabet titles, he would have been a world champion.

Most of the guys who KO'ed Tony were absolute world class fighters who made a habit out of KOing blokes.

Mahanga was the exception. But he was rough and ready and did manage 19 career KO's. He was unpolished, but a big banger, and that's why TV Ringside used to love getting him on. He beat an inexperienced Mundine who'd only had 10 fights!

Rodriguez on the other hand was an absolutely class act. Had 121 fights for 49 KO's (40.5%!), and his specialty was early nights, many very early.....have a look how many early round KO's there are amongst his 49 KO's.

Gus Mercurio didn't ref the Rodriguez fight (Vic Patrick did). Nor did he ref the Mahunga fight (Terry Reilly did). But he's always strongly maintained that both punches would have knocked over a building!

[sallywinder]

mundines glass jaw is a myth. he got caught by good fighters. most of em end up that way....

[ipswich express]

I think it's fair to say he got caught by a couple of boxers not anywhere near his class as well.

[WhataRock]

People seem to be putting words into my mouth here...I have never said Mundine had a "glass" or "terrible" chin..I simply said it was weak compared to other elite fighters of the time.
To say Tony could take a shot aswell as guys like Briscoe, Valdez, Monzon, Griffith, et al is just plain false.

Fine about LMR and Mahunga...Rodriguez I still wouldnt consider a "puncher" for a middleweight, as he was more a man with a high level of technical ability and a career welter..but he is one of the all time greats.

But its the guys like Royster, Marshall and Summerhays koing Tony are the losses that tell the true story IMO...I think hiccups like that support my case if anything because its unlikely that those blokes outclassed a fighter like Tony, they just caught him and when a fight can be changed like that it can often indicates a less then granite beard in someone.

[ipswich express]

Completely agree with you WhataRock. PS- The Bodysnatcher was a cunt when I met him!

[COULDHAVEBEEN]

...Rodriguez I still wouldnt consider a "puncher" for a middleweight, as he was more a man with a high level of technical ability and a career welter..but he is one of the all time greats...

Not looking for sh_t fight here Rock, but for a man you wouldn't consider a puncher Rodriguez made a habit of putting guys away early.

16 of his opponents didn't last 3 rounds, and 34 of them didn't last 5 rounds!

A career stoppage % of 40.5 isn't shabby either - 121 fights for 49 KO's (admittedly a mixture of KO's & TKO's).

[WhataRock]

Completely agree with you WhataRock. PS- The Bodysnatcher was a cunt when I met him!


Yeah I have heard you say that before Ippy..I have heard other people say he was a gentlemen for the most part but your account speaks louder to me.

What exactly happen again?

[ipswich express]

Met him in the Top Rank gym in Vegas. Met a whole heap of guys that day. I was getting a mitt signed by everyone. I approached Eddie Mustapha Muhammad who signed it and we chatted. McCallum was there too. I asked him to sign it. Personally, he should've been happy that someone from Australia recognised him.

He asked me for $100 to sign it. I told him I was backpacking and couldn't afford it. He basically said, well then, you don't get my autograph...

I thought he was taking the piss. He wasn't. EMM looked to be embarrassed by the whole situation, as did Jeff Mayweather.

[WhataRock]

What year was that ippy?

[ipswich express]

2005 mate.

[boxon123]

mundines glass jaw is a myth. he got caught by good fighters. most of em end up that way.... Mundine sr was a very skilled fighter that went to water if his opponent didn't fold The Bennie Brisco fight was a great example of this Mundine smashed this great fighter ,when brisco didn't go Mundine folded. Simple facts.

[COULDHAVEBEEN]

Mundine sr was a very skilled fighter that went to water if his opponent didn't fold The Bennie Brisco fight was a great example of this Mundine smashed this great fighter ,when brisco didn't go Mundine folded. Simple facts.

Bloody harsh! - One man's opinion of 1 fight amongst a career total of 96 fights!!

Remember the bloke did a serious number of rounds with some of the greats inc. Griffith, Monzon, Bunny Johnson, Cometti, Bunny Stirling etc. Okay Monzon KO'ed him, but he wasn't timid of Monzon (probably the best middle weight to pull on a glove - only Hagler comes close) and he wasn't running away from him! He beat all the others named, plus about 75 others.

Mundine was one of our all-time greats - indesputable fact IMO - okay not top 10 perhaps but certainly top 30.

[sallywinder]

I think it's fair to say he got caught by a couple of boxers not anywhere near his class as well.

history is littered with good boxers that got ko'd by lesser boxers. thats boxing. that why we love it. shit happens regular.

[ipswich express]

While that's true, it happened to Tony a few times though.

[flamengo]

I hate to add 'arguement' to a debate, BUT Mundine snr, told myself, plus two others who were with him at the time, 1994 that...

"I was only knocked out legitimately once, the rest I just turned it up on". Basically gave in on the night.

That Legetimate KO coming via the fists of Rodriguez.

[ipswich express]

Well there you go...

[TheDuke]

I hate to add 'arguement' to a debate, BUT Mundine snr, told myself, plus two others who were with him at the time, 1994 that...

"I was only knocked out legitimately once, the rest I just turned it up on". Basically gave in on the night.

That Legetimate KO coming via the fists of Rodriguez.

:huh

Meaning he gave up?

[flamengo]

:huh

Meaning he gave up?

Too a degree, he was clearly unwilling to continue for further 'punishment', or sunk into himself whilst rattled.

Either way, its a very true story, which I'd actually forgotten until speaking with a mate who was with us.

My mates opinion. " Some people just have it in them to fold at the wrong time".

[TheDuke]

So my informants were on the money?

[flamengo]

So my informants were on the money?

Mate, Mundine just seemed to lack the will at times. I'll never have the knowledge to question Mundines own JAW.

He was just 'unwilling' at times to continue, or beat the count.

Pretty much 'in his own words'.

[TheDuke]

I stayed out of the jaw argument :)

[cookie the carr]

My old trainer CHARLIE''DUNDEE''GERGAN was TONY'S good friend and trainer in the late 70's his fight with RODRIGUEZ was a quick one a 52 second, KO old DUNDEE told me that TONY never had a glass jaw he fought puncher's like STEVE ACZEL and big punching tongan MAILE HAUMONA and was never knock out ,he just had in his mind that the black american fighter's were so much better than him.

[Russell]

Funny thread :rofl

[sallywinder]

Funny thread :rofl

well, if you think tony mundines career was funny, you should look at his son, anthonys!!!! the guy is a hugely successful stand up comedian that boxes occaisionally. sort of like boxings version of victor borge.....

[jase29]

The Briscoe fight is a good example. Great fight and Mundine was right in it until he quit.

[Liechhardt]

Tony was just a kid when Rodriguez ko'd him. Look how fast Tony was moved compared to some of todays guys.

[Liechhardt]

Also, Tony would have beat Sergio Martinez.

[perfect jet]

Also, Tony would have beat Sergio Martinez.

:lol:

[sallywinder]

tony would win every division in australia from middle up. heavyweight included.