Does kicking leave you open to a grappler?

[Cachibatches]

Dear Friends,

I used to really enjoy Ultimate Fighting in the old days of Gracie/Shamrock/Severn

However, I have only watched occaionally and followed through the internet in the new era.

So I have a question I would like all of you to answer.

What has MMA shown in the relationship between kicking and wrestling/Ju Jitsu/Olther grappling?

It seems to me that whereas kicking generates a tremendous amount of force and would be effective against boxers, it just leaves you badly opena and off balance for a guy who wants to take you to the mat with single/double/ankel pick/etc.

Also, a friend of mine who follows closely says that the era of "wild kicks" is over, and that kickers are more retrained in their chocies of kicks these days.

What say all of you, and please, if you could, pleae do sight specific examples that I might be able to see on YOUTUBE or DVD.

Thanks.

[Polymath]

Also, a friend of mine who follows closely says that the era of "wild kicks" is over, and that kickers are more retrained in their chocies of kicks these days.


Don't think there ever was such an era; after the early UFC's it was assumed kicking was pretty much useless. ps, yes of course, being on one leg makes you more vulnerable to being taken down.

[Cachibatches]

Don't think there ever was such an era; after the early UFC's it was assumed kicking was pretty much useless. ps, yes of course, being on one leg makes you more vulnerable to being taken down.
Good enough.

Perhaps, as an obviously well schooled man ont he subject, you can answer if you remember an particular fight when kicking was beneficial?

[ufoalf]

Hardly, you need time to absorb the kick which gives the kicker time to get balance. Catching kicks is very difficult unless you can read your opponent like an open book. Unless you go against someone who's main goal to take you down(his stance is adjusted appropriately) it's not very likely to be taken down. You'll only see top fighters do that, such as GSP or Fedor, or when the match up is one sided.

[Cachibatches]

Hardly, you need time to absorb the kick which gives the kicker time to get balance. Catching kicks is very difficult unless you can read your opponent like an open book. Unless you go against someone who's main goal to take you down(his stance is adjusted appropriately) it's not very likely to be taken down. You'll only see top fighters do that, such as GSP or Fedor, or when the match up is one sided.
Nice- the secodn response is of the opposite oppinion of the first!

Well, tell me this: what are some exaples then of a kicker getting over on a grappler: Your post is odd in that you say that grappling does not beat kicking, and yet the only examples you offer are of the alledged exceptions.

What are some fights I can YOUTUBE that prove your point?

Thanks for responding.

[Polymath]

you can answer if you remember an particular fight when kicking was beneficial?

There are tons. A recent one would be Liddell vs Jardine; Jardine beat him largely with leg kicks. This is the type of kicking that seems to work for a lot of MMA fighters.

Then at the other end you have Cro Cop, who was a freak; sprawling and just kicking people's heads off. I can't think of any kickboxer before or since who has fought like that and been successful , especially at the top level.

[Polymath]

Unless you go against someone who's main goal to take you down

Which a grappler would be, obviously...

[Cachibatches]

There are tons. A recent one would be Liddell vs Jardine; Jardine beat him largely with leg kicks. This is the type of kicking that seems to work for a lot of MMA fighters.

Then at the other end you have Cro Cop, who was a freak; sprawling and just kicking people's heads off. I can't think of any kickboxer before or since who has fought like that and been successful , especially at the top level.
But Lindell is a striker, No?

I'll check out Cro Crop.

[karatekid530]

But Lindell is a striker, No?

I'll check out Cro Crop.

liddell's also actually a very well trained wrestler, which plays a lot into why you only see him on his feet. in his better years his sprawl was phenomenal.

[Bill Butcher]

Dear Friends,

I used to really enjoy Ultimate Fighting in the old days of Gracie/Shamrock/Severn

However, I have only watched occaionally and followed through the internet in the new era.

So I have a question I would like all of you to answer.

What has MMA shown in the relationship between kicking and wrestling/Ju Jitsu/Olther grappling?

It seems to me that whereas kicking generates a tremendous amount of force and would be effective against boxers, it just leaves you badly opena and off balance for a guy who wants to take you to the mat with single/double/ankel pick/etc.

Also, a friend of mine who follows closely says that the era of "wild kicks" is over, and that kickers are more retrained in their chocies of kicks these days.

What say all of you, and please, if you could, pleae do sight specific examples that I might be able to see on YOUTUBE or DVD.

Thanks.

Your friend is basically right... badly timed kicks to the body & legs usually end up with the grappler grabbing the leg/legs & taking them down.

High kicks to the head - if fast enough - are rarely caught but unless the guy is hurt or stunned they usually miss or are blocked, sometimes the kicker will miss bad & spin completely around & a lot of grapplers take this half second of unbalance advantage & shoot in for the takedown.

Nowadays you get very high level muay thai guys like Anderson Silva & Mauricio Rua who throw their kicks fast, hard , sharp & just at the right time judging by their opponents position so as to not get caught... but these guys are also BJJ black belts - in other words, its far from game over if you take them down, in fact if your own BJJ is not top notch, its you thats in trouble, big trouble.

Another way is the Chuck Liddell way, great kickboxer but rather than top level BJJ, he learned terriffic wrestling... if you catch Chucks leg, he will sprawl suddenly & you waste LOADS of energy by continuing to try take him down + once/if you get him there, he is the best ever at powering back up to his feet & you are left gassed & on your feet with a serious looking Chuck coming at you, most straight grapplers would dread a fight with Chuck stylewise.

Sorry about the book I just wrote - I would have been quicker saying `strikers need to learn some form of grappling these days to enable their striking to work in MMA.`

:lol: :good

[Bill Butcher]

Well, tell me this: what are some exaples then of a kicker getting over on a grappler

Grapplers used to dominate UFC but the 1st time that form was broke was when kickboxer Maurice Smith beat wrestler Mark Coleman in a big UFC superfight by using great movement & timing Coleman, kicking fuck out his legs & using his quick feet to get out of the way of Colemans takedown attempts.
Smith did have some grappling experience but nothing to guys like Rua or Liddell, just enough to survive tough spots & get back to standing.

Of course this situation was reversed when Maurice Smith lost his HWT title to Randy Couture in another UFC mega fight, this time the wrestler Couture timed his takedowns better than Coleman did & won the fight by constantly taking him to the ground.

Ps. Marco Ruas won the UFC 7 tourney primarily with leg kicks but he was a great grappler too & I believe submitted 1 of his 3 opponents that night.

Also check out Cro-cop & Pedro Rizzo, they were highly successfull using leg kicks at their best but of course had their losses to great grapplers too... Cro-cop to Nogueira & Fedor & Rizzo to Randlemann & Couture.

[ufoalf]

Nice- the secodn response is of the opposite oppinion of the first!

Well, tell me this: what are some exaples then of a kicker getting over on a grappler: Your post is odd in that you say that grappling does not beat kicking, and yet the only examples you offer are of the alledged exceptions.

What are some fights I can YOUTUBE that prove your point?

Thanks for responding.


The point is you won't see any failed attempts after "kicks that have been defended". Because there arent many, if any attempts at all. They either take the hit and get the takedown or they defend it and not even try.
"Open" is a bad way to describe the situation. It's more of a trade off. They have to leave themselves open in the first place and take the hit to have enough time to get to the kicker. Unless you can defend + catch.

Watch Crocop Gonzaga first round. Both are excellent in their respective sports. Gonzaga ended up taking him down but he had to take a kick to his ribs, if I remember correctly after that one kick Gonzaga had a nasty ass bruse on his right side but he got the take down. If he was to try to defend the kick and then take crocop down it is unlikely to have been successful.

[Polymath]

There's only Cro Cop who fits the bill.

[Cachibatches]

Thanks for all of your respones. Most enlightening. I will look for some of this on YOUTUBE.

[sam1222]

it does if the cunt grabs your leg

[sugarngold]

Yes, kicking leaves a fighter open to takedowns. Just as in boxing when one throws a jab - they are vulnerable to the right cross counter, kicking leaves a fighter open to counters as well. Grappling adds in a new range of counters as most grapplers prefer to take a fight to the ground as soon as possible.

Ultimately, it depends on the opposing fighters' strategy. A seasoned wrestler or jiujutsuan is usually looking for opportunities to score a takedown - so any attempt at a kick would be seen as an opportunity to shoot for the leg or catch the kick and then transition into the takedown.

Most fighters with a striking background - usually Muay Thai or some MMA variation of Muay Thai will prefer to check leg kicks with their shin or block kicks to the upper body by blocking with their arms. Upon checking they prefer to counter with kicks of their own. Checking kicks in this fashion takes proper conditioning as real thai fighters condition their shins for years and when they kick - they hit with the force of a baseball bat. Try blocking a baseball bat swing into your shin and you can see the dangers implied.

Catching a kick takes proper timing as there is a certain extension range where a kick carries the most power. Intercepting it before full extension or catching it after can diffuse the power behind it. However - mistiming the kick can run one into a full power, potentially fight ending blow.

[sugarngold]

it does if the cunt grabs your leg

What he said. :good

[sugarngold]

1:34 Cung Le catches Frank Shamrock's push kick aka teep and performs a textbook foot sweep.

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Cung Le teaches one method for catching a rear round kick.

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0:30 Cung Le catches Sheely's low round kick and performs - you guessed it - a foot sweep. This whole video is pretty much a how-to on catching kicks and securing the takedown.

6:45 Cung Le catches a front kick and throws Sheely - hard.

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Here's an old school grappler vs striker match as Royce Gracie sizes up kung fu fighter Jason Delucia. Gracie keeps his range as Delucia kicks. Royce waitis for Jason to over commit so he can shoot in for the clinch and take the fight to the ground where he is in control.

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0:40 Funaki catches Maurice Smith's round kick to the body and goes for a single leg takedown. Smith grabs the ropes to avoid being taken down.

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Conversely - kicks can be used to keep an opponent at bay - just like a left jab in boxing.

3:00 Marco Ruas uses leg kicks to keep Paul Varleans at bay. Ruas literally chops at Varleans' legs until the big man crumbles.

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Maurice Smith used the same kick and move strategy to chop Brazilian jiujutsu black belt, Conan Silviera, down to size - but sealed the deal by switching off with a high kick to the head for the first and only time in the fight. I'm sorry for the poor quality and brevity of this clip but it is the only one I can find of this fight.

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[Polymath]

Le is so exciting to watch, its a pity he isn't serious about mma and a little younger.

[sugarngold]

Le is so exciting to watch, its a pity he isn't serious about mma and a little younger.

I agree. I'm pretty disappointed that Cung has been making movies for the past year. Whenever he makes a return to MMA - he will be rusty. It's always the kiss of death for a fighter to make a movie then go back to fighting.

[2FastByFar]

Dan Evensen vs. Pat Barry at UFC 92 shows the power of a good leg kick.
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