Louis vs Tyson

[dezbeast]

Pretend that you can magically bring the Louis just before fighting Schmeling the 2nd time and the Tyson just before fighting Biggs to 2009. Allow one week for them to study each other and adapt to modern boxing. What would the outcome be in 10 fights? I prefer to leave out the factor of them learning from mistakes of their previous fight, so let's assume that they have any knowledge of their previous fight erased from their memories.

[kmcc505]

Lots of knockouts, Louis doing 7-8 out of ten of them.

[janitor]

After about five fights they would both be broken down old men.

Louis would do better as the series progresed.

[lefthook31]

Call me crazy, but I have watched just about every former champion in some way on tape, and I dont see any one of them I would favor over the best Tyson. He was just too fast too explosive and too hard to hit cleanly at his best. That doesnt mean Tyson wins every time, but I would favor him over anyone.

[Flea Man]

Young Tyson would slaughter Louis.

[Flea Man]

Call me crazy, but I have watched just about every former champion in some way on tape, and I dont see any one of them I would favor over the best Tyson. He was just too fast too explosive and too hard to hit cleanly at his best. That doesnt mean Tyson wins every time, but I would favor him over anyone.

I agree. I think either Prime Holmes or Ali would have the best chance.

[dezbeast]

I agree. I think either Prime Holmes or Ali would have the best chance.

What about prime Lewis?

[Flea Man]

What about prime Lewis?

I don't think Lewis had a bad chin by any means.....but him being K.O'd near his Prime (whereas Ali and Holmes recovered and went on to win when they were decked) makes me think he might not last.

Hope all that makes sense :good

[Woddy]

Tyson was better than Joe Louis. He would knock him out easily.

[janitor]

I agree. I think either Prime Holmes or Ali would have the best chance.

I dont think that Holmes would ever have beaten Tyson to be honest.

Not mobile enough.

Toget onto the subject of the thread I would pick Louis on the basis that he is more likley to deliver when the chips are down.

[GPater11093]

i think Louis can win this fight but it needs to be a 15 rounder i dont think he can win a 12 rounder

he has to cover up from Tysons early 4 round assualt then he can outbox him and outfight him in the later rounds as Tyson aint so good in the later rounds

but i think Tyson would floor him in the first 4 and win them so big he wins a 12 rounder on the 10 point must system but in a 15 rounder oon a rounds basis Louis wins convincly

[leverage]

For all of louis punching power and hand speed he was quite fragile. His chin was only c-grade and he wouldn't be able to take too many of tysons blows. He was also slow of foot so he wouldn't be able to move away from tyson once hurt.

Combine this with the fact that louis was no defensive wizard and it spells a short night for the "brown bomber".

[Silver]

For all of louis punching power and hand speed he was quite fragile. His chin was only c-grade and he wouldn't be able to take too many of tysons blows. He was also slow of foot so he wouldn't be able to move away from tyson once hurt.

Combine this with the fact that louis was no defensive wizard and it spells a short night for the "brown bomber".
yeah, tyson had a much better chin then lous. when they exchange punches, tyson has the advantage.

[Muchmoore]

I don't see Louis winning. His durability wasn't a problem but it wasn't his strong point either, I see Tyson getting the better of the exchanges due to his superior power, speed, and chin and winning by a KO in about 6.

Great fight though and like some people have already said, Louis was better the more times he fought you. In a series, him winning a fight isn't far fetched.

[PhillyPhan69]

Louis takes him out around 11.

[janitor]

yeah, tyson had a much better chin then lous. when they exchange punches, tyson has the advantage.

Tyson had the better chin but Louis might just have been the harder of the two to put away due to other factors such as recuperative abilities.

[McGrain]

Tyson had the better chin but Louis might just have been the harder of the two to put away due to other factors such as recuperative abilities.


I agree.

Tyson never came of the deck to win.

[Holmes' Jab]

I dont think that Holmes would ever have beaten Tyson to be honest.

Not mobile enough.

Toget onto the subject of the thread I would pick Louis on the basis that he is more likley to deliver when the chips are down.


Larry is too mentally tough for Tyson. I think he squeaks a narrow decision down the stretch avoiding the worst of the punishment. Of course if Tyson can land a big right hand ala Shavers on Larry he could force the referee to stop it, but Holmes was at his most dangerous when hurt and Tyson tended to spit out the dummy on occasions when a top class opponent fought back against him. Keep the jab pumping, look to catch Tyson coming in, break up his rythmn and use footwork. The key is not to trade or brawl too much if it can be avoided. A very close call, but I slightly favour Larry. Of course every ounce of focus will be needed and excecution of a smart, effective strategy.


Others I tip to beat Tyson prime-for-prime are Louis, Lewis, Liston and Ali. I'd make all narrow faves here.

[Jack]

I don't see Louis lasting more than 4 rounds against Tyson. His defence and chin are nowhere near good enough to beat any offensive beast, which includes Tyson. Too slow and too fragile.

As good as Louis was, all his faults play right into Tyson's hands. It could end quicker than Tyson/Spinks.

[Muchmoore]

I agree.

Tyson never came of the deck to win.

True but when Tyson was dropped, it was only after taking rounds of sustained abuse and when he had nothing left.

His chin was so good at absorbing shots he was never dropped or even seriously hurt by single punches or even single combinations.

[Dempsey1238]

True but when Tyson was dropped, it was only after taking rounds of sustained abuse and when he had nothing left.

His chin was so good at absorbing shots he was never dropped or even seriously hurt by single punches or even single combinations.

How about Holyfiled I?? Tyson getting get the sustained abuse yet. It happen early in the fight.

[McGrain]

True but when Tyson was dropped, it was only after taking rounds of sustained abuse and when he had nothing left.

This also describes the two occasions - less than Tyson - when Louis was stopped. Not that you are wrong, but I do feel there's an important difference between punch resistance and tide-turning punch resistance.

His chin was so good at absorbing shots he was never dropped or even seriously hurt by single punches or even single combinations.

Don't know about that, but I see what you are getting at. In a way, he probably could have done with less ability in terms of shipping bombs. A knee might have done him good on occasion.

[lefthook31]

I agree.

Tyson never came of the deck to win.

How many times was he on the deck? Never in his real career. Actually he was on the deck in the Ribalta fight, but it was from a punch he threw while falling in.

[McGrain]

wtf? his "real" career?

[janitor]

True but when Tyson was dropped, it was only after taking rounds of sustained abuse and when he had nothing left.

His chin was so good at absorbing shots he was never dropped or even seriously hurt by single punches or even single combinations.

I dont think anybody is questioning that Tyson had the better chin but for all the criticisms of Louis's chin he dosnt seem to be an easy fighter to put away.

Did Tyson take a worse shelacking against Douglas than Louis took against Schmeling before going down?

Did he take a worse shelacking against Holyfield or Lewis than Louis took against Marciano?

Why were dozens of ranked contenders not able tio capitalise on Louis's chin?

You would have to conclude that either his chin was much better than given credit for or that he had insane recuperative powers to compensate.

[McGrain]

IYou would have to conclude that either his chin was much better than given credit for or that he had insane recuperative powers to compensate.


It's a bit of both, but there are other things. Firstly, Louis is a technical puncher. It's far easier for a technical puncher to continue to box whilst buzzed because they are rellying upon physical learning. It's different for a tactician or a slickster. Louis is a stalking puncher, so he just does the things he's learned. This can be bad (Schmeling I) or good (every other time he was hurt).

Additionally, he's one of the few fighters that seemed genuinely without fear to me, ice-in-his veins type. Fear isn't generally a part of the KO experience for top fighters, but I think that's fear of punishment as distinct from the fear of losing. 1/10 people in the population just don't experience fear in the same way as the rest, I genuinely think that Louis was one of these guys, probably a lot of the great fighters are.

Last, and by no means least, I sometimes wonder what opponents held back after they hurt Louis. He is an insanely skilled counter-puncher, and his mission is to make you lead. If you lead, you get hurt. It's no small thing. A swarmer is different, for example, because generally if he is not swarming he is vulnerable.

[he grant]

Tyson is actually one of the toughest match ups for Louis because of his speed out of the gate, his power and his crouching style ... to say Mike was faster of hand is not necessarily true ... if Louis survives the opening blizt of the first round I see him able to bust Mike up pretty good ... I'm not sure on this one ..

[lefthook31]

wtf? his "real" career?

Cmon, even a Tyson hater can acknowledge he was not the same fighter after prison.

[McGrain]

Cmon, even a Tyson hater can acknowledge he was not the same fighter after prison.

Yeah, but what about before? The struggle with Ruddock, the beating that Douglas gave him? This was before prison.

[mr. magoo]

Yeah, but what about before? The struggle with Ruddock, the beating that Douglas gave him? This was before prison.


I don't think that those were the best renditions of Tyson either. I'm not going to turn this into a discussion about weather Tyson was peak either post, prior or during Douglas.

My opinion is that the best versions of these two fighters, ( Louis and Tyson ), were probably Mike Tyson from the Thomas to the Spinks fights, and Joe Louis from the second Schmeling match up until about 1942.

During this time, anyone could have taken it, but given that this fight would be a pure slugfest with one fighter being the aggressor early, while the other had the tendency to get decked in the beginning, I think Mike needs to be slightly favored.

Anyone who thinks that this bout is going to be a chess match with the mystique classical warrior luring the contemporary hothead into deep water before drowning him is only kidding themselves. Louis was a puncher....Tyson was a puncher... There isn't going to be any dancing or giving angles here. The winner is going to be decided by the 5th round, and frankly I think that's stretching it a bit. Louis will always be the better fighter overall, but nobody was more dangerous than Mike in the get go.

[McGrain]

I don't think that those were the best renditions of Tyson either. I'm not going to turn this into a discussion about weather Tyson was peak either post, prior or during Douglas.

I'm not talking so much about the best versions for a fantasy match-ups, more this "real career" thing. Was Buster Douglas a part of his "real career" or not?

I've always felt that prison rather neatly bi-sected Mike's career. To neatly. Convinient excuse for his rabid fans. He was experiencing serious problems way, way before that.

[lefthook31]

Yeah, but what about before? The struggle with Ruddock, the beating that Douglas gave him? This was before prison.

If you followed Tysons career closely, he basically peaked at the Spinks fight. This was the best and most angry version of Tyson with a real boxing team in place.
After that fight he basically fired everyone. Enter John Horne and Rory Holloway, Tysons buddies with no experience in boxing management, who took over for Bill Cayton and the recently deceased Jim Jacobs.
Enter Aaron Snowell and Jay Bright as trainers taking over for Kevin Rooney. Snowell was a low level assistant with some experience and a loyal follower of Don King. Jay Bright, an inspiring actor, who lived with Tyson for a brief period in Catskill, had no other training experience other than being with Tyson in the gym when he was younger. Tyson went from a disciplinary trainer who put curfews on him and didnt take crap from Tyson, to basically a team of friends who let Tyson do whatever he wanted. It was inevitable what was going to happen. In as early as his first fight without Rooney, Tyson was badly rocked by Bruno and swung wildly the entire fight. Two fights later he was on his back against Douglas.
Richie Giachetti replaced Snowell and Bright, but Giachetti trained Larry Holmes, and was more of a traditional boxing trainer, he was not a trainer who trained his fighters in the D'Amato style, which was a very unique style, perfect for a man of Tyson's physical attributes. A shorter man with a lot of speed bobbing, weaving and countering off of his opponents shots as he moved forward. So really there was a big difference in Tyson. Training is repetitious, to the point where it becomes second nature in a fight. When you get away from that repetition, it changes things.

[mr. magoo]

I'm not talking so much about the best versions for a fantasy match-ups, more this "real career" thing. Was Buster Douglas a part of his "real career" or not?

I've always felt that prison rather neatly bi-sected Mike's career. To neatly. Convinient excuse for his rabid fans. He was experiencing serious problems way, way before that.

Agreed,

I misunderstood your position....Happens when one joins a conversation without following its full course. :oops:

[McGrain]

No bother.

[Muchmoore]

How about Holyfiled I?? Tyson getting get the sustained abuse yet. It happen early in the fight.

Tyson lunged in with a wild shot and was hit with a counter body shot that knocked him off balance and he fell. It was a balance KD, Tyson wasn't hurt.

[Muchmoore]

Don't know about that, but I see what you are getting at. In a way, he probably could have done with less ability in terms of shipping bombs. A knee might have done him good on occasion.

He was stunned a few times (Bruno 1, Tucker) but the key word is stunned. Tucker hit him with a nice uppercut that stunned Tyson for about 2 seconds, but then he went back to work.

My point is Tyson was never put in SERIOUS trouble unless he took a hellacious beating, at which point anyones chances of winning is close to zero. Faulting Tyson for never getting off the canvas and winning is unfair in my opinion because of the fact he was so hard to hurt and drop.

[Muchmoore]

I dont think anybody is questioning that Tyson had the better chin but for all the criticisms of Louis's chin he dosnt seem to be an easy fighter to put away.

Did Tyson take a worse shelacking against Douglas than Louis took against Schmeling before going down?

Did he take a worse shelacking against Holyfield or Lewis than Louis took against Marciano?

Why were dozens of ranked contenders not able tio capitalise on Louis's chin?

You would have to conclude that either his chin was much better than given credit for or that he had insane recuperative powers to compensate.

Louis had a good chin, don't get me wrong. I usually defend his chin actually, for many the reasons you listed.

But Louis WAS dropped and hurt much more than Tyson, even at his best. Of course much of this is due to the freakish number of contenders he fought, but if he had an ATG chin he wouldn't of been dropped as many times as he was.

Louis was superior to Tyson in terms of recovering and recuperative ability, and Tyson was superior to Louis in terms of the ability to NOT get hurt.

In this fight, I believe Tyson would get the better of him for that reason :good.

[Hydraulix]

It's funny. I can envision Joe Louis surviving the early attack of Jack Dempsey , but I can't see him surviving against Iron Mike.

[MrMarvel]

Tyson could take Louis' best shots for the time it lasts, while Louis couldn't take Tyson's. Tyson would move too fast for Louis. Louis couldn't last long enough to get his counterpunches going. Tyson overwhelms Louis ten our of ten times.

[McGrain]

He was stunned a few times (Bruno 1, Tucker) but the key word is stunned. Tucker hit him with a nice uppercut that stunned Tyson for about 2 seconds, but then he went back to work.

My point is Tyson was never put in SERIOUS trouble unless he took a hellacious beating, at which point anyones chances of winning is close to zero. Faulting Tyson for never getting off the canvas and winning is unfair in my opinion because of the fact he was so hard to hurt and drop.


Well Tyson never overcame any great adversity in the ring. That's a fact. Now that might be because he had an excellent chin, or it may be because he just wasn't made of that type of shit.

I think it's because he wasn't made of that type of shit.

[janitor]

Louis had a good chin, don't get me wrong. I usually defend his chin actually, for many the reasons you listed.

But Louis WAS dropped and hurt much more than Tyson, even at his best. Of course much of this is due to the freakish number of contenders he fought, but if he had an ATG chin he wouldn't of been dropped as many times as he was.

Louis was superior to Tyson in terms of recovering and recuperative ability, and Tyson was superior to Louis in terms of the ability to NOT get hurt.

In this fight, I believe Tyson would get the better of him for that reason :good.

I thnk your asesment of both fighters durability is esentialy acurate.

I also think that there are suficient stylistic dynamics between them that it will not necisarily come down to who has the better chin.

Neither of their chins is bad enough to save you if the fight isnt going your way.

I see several factors being important here:

Louis likes his oponent coming straight at him and Tyson will oblige. If Louis can back up just enough to keep Tyson coming towards him he can do a lot of damage.

Despite his longer reach Louis is esentialy better on the inside which might prove decisive.

Louis dosnt particularly like being crowded, or shorter fighters. If his fight plan isnt working he will be slow to adapt it which he cant aford.

Louis has a habit of getting up without taking the full count. Not necisarily a good idea in this case.

If it gets past a certain number of rounds the dynamic decisively shifts towards Louis. Would Louis be prepared to spoil his way through the early rounds by holding?

[leverage]

It's funny. I can envision Joe Louis surviving the early attack of Jack Dempsey , but I can't see him surviving against Iron Mike.
This makes sense to me. Taking the blows of someone nearly 40 pounds heavier than dempsey(and just as fast if not faster) certainly wouldn't help louis cause.

[mr. magoo]

It's funny. I can envision Joe Louis surviving the early attack of Jack Dempsey , but I can't see him surviving against Iron Mike.


That shouldn't be funny nor surprising at all.. Tyson was probably 35-40 Lbs heavier, more polished, and proven against modern heavyweights who in most cases were bigger, stronger and faster. Therefore, Louis's chances SHOULD be greater in surviving Dempsey as opposed to Tyson.

[janitor]

It's funny. I can envision Joe Louis surviving the early attack of Jack Dempsey , but I can't see him surviving against Iron Mike.

In some waysI see the dynamic the other way.

I think there is one key gap in Tysons game that Louis might be able to exploit which he would not be able to with Dempsey.

[Hydraulix]

In some waysI see the dynamic the other way.

I think there is one key gap in Tysons game that Louis might be able to exploit which he would not be able to with Dempsey.

What's the key gap?

[janitor]

What's the key gap?

Basical Dempsey inside game is on a whole diferent level to Tysons.

This:

A. Attacks one of Louis's key weakneses in that he dosnt like to be crowded.

B. Removes a key weaknes that Louis might have exploited to considerable effect in Tyson.

[djanders]

Pretend that you can magically bring the Louis just before fighting Schmeling the 2nd time and the Tyson just before fighting Biggs to 2009. Allow one week for them to study each other and adapt to modern boxing. What would the outcome be in 10 fights? I prefer to leave out the factor of them learning from mistakes of their previous fight, so let's assume that they have any knowledge of their previous fight erased from their memories.

My opinion: Tyson would have to get Louis early to win. He wouldn't be able to do that often. A prime Joe Louis would win about 7 out of 10 times against a prime Mike Tyson...maybe more.

[GPater11093]

I thnk your asesment of both fighters durability is esentialy acurate.

I also think that there are suficient stylistic dynamics between them that it will not necisarily come down to who has the better chin.

Neither of their chins is bad enough to save you if the fight isnt going your way.

I see several factors being important here:

Louis likes his oponent coming straight at him and Tyson will oblige. If Louis can back up just enough to keep Tyson coming towards him he can do a lot of damage.

Despite his longer reach Louis is esentialy better on the inside which might prove decisive.

Louis dosnt particularly like being crowded, or shorter fighters. If his fight plan isnt working he will be slow to adapt it which he cant aford.

Louis has a habit of getting up without taking the full count. Not necisarily a good idea in this case.

If it gets past a certain number of rounds the dynamic decisively shifts towards Louis. Would Louis be prepared to spoil his way through the early rounds by holding?

Louis does have a habit at that but in the first post it says this fight would be under current rule sets which means there would be a mandatory 8 count anyway so thats not an issue unless he stays down for 10

Would Louis need to spoil in the early rounds, he might have enough pop for Tyson to respect him and that could mean Tyson might not be so ferouicous in the first 4 rounds

[BITCH ASS]

Louis knocks him out. Tyson's style worked wonders against big tall men who couldn't throw an uppercut, but Louis was a guy almost the same size as Tyson, that could hit just as hard and had great uppercuts. He would knock Tyson out.

[BITCH ASS]

Tyson is actually one of the toughest match ups for Louis because of his speed out of the gate, his power and his crouching style ... to say Mike was faster of hand is not necessarily true ... if Louis survives the opening blizt of the first round I see him able to bust Mike up pretty good ... I'm not sure on this one ..

But Mike don't crouch right against a guy like Louis. He's too upright.

He'll get hit by uppercut after uppercut as Louis will crouch with Tyson but due to his style be able to get even lower, and take away Tyson's advantage which was to use his opponents height against him.

It would make Tyson appear very one dimensional.

[MrMarvel]

Louis knocks him out. Tyson's style worked wonders against big tall men who couldn't throw an uppercut, but Louis was a guy almost the same size as Tyson, that could hit just as hard and had great uppercuts. He would knock Tyson out.

You are completely wrong about this. Tyson had the most trouble against big tall men. The uppercut business is not an issue. Louis used uppercuts against fighters who bent over in crouches. This isn't the way Tyson fights. He bends at the knees. Louis' money should would be the straight right, but he won't have a chance to land many, and prime Tyson takes a good shot.

The problem for Louis is that this simply cannot hold up under the combination of Tyson's thunder and accuracy. Since Louis lacks the defensive adequacy to avoid getting hammered, he's done for early.

[BITCH ASS]

You are completely wrong about this. Tyson had the most trouble against big tall men. The uppercut business is not an issue. Louis used uppercuts against fighters who bent over in crouches. This isn't the way Tyson fights. He bends at the knees. Louis' money should would be the straight right, but he won't have a chance to land many, and prime Tyson takes a good shot.

The problem for Louis is that this simply cannot hold up under the combination of Tyson's thunder and accuracy. Since Louis lacks the defensive adequacy to avoid getting hammered, he's done for early.

No he didn't......

Where are you getting this information from. Tyson's entire style, and you can even hear it from him and his trainer, was designed to get in close, and take out big men. It's a great defense when your opponent stands relatively up right, and throws mainly straight punches.

Tyson's style is great for evading straight punches, and hooks because of the way he's holding his hands, and his bobbing and weaving sytle, but the fact that he's still a little squared up and he's not fighting at a lean means that he's vulnerable to uppercuts.

Which big men gave him trouble?

Tucker? Yeah, Tucker hit him once in the second or first round with a huge uppercut. Mike ended up basically white washing Tucker on the score cards as he did every other big man except at the end of his career.

Prime Mike would have likely knocked Lewis out. Lewis was a bit different from other big men in the sense that he was pretty athletic, and had a decent uppercut, but Mike would have used Lewis' height against him and either made Lewis fight a fight on the inside that would have involved a lot of holding but with Mike landing the cleaner flashier punches, or Lewis' chin would have let him down and he would have got knocked out, just like all the other tall opponents Mike faced in his prime.

All of them basically ran for their lives or held on. Lewis would be no different as his height would be his hinderance because he wouldn't be able to land often with his uppercut.

If you watch Mike in his losses, it's because Mike is very one dimensional, and guys like Buster and Holyfield got down just as low as Mike did to deliver the uppercut that Mike just couldn't deal with.

That in combination with a jab, made it very difficult for Mike to continue his strategy of coming in low and rising like a cobra because of the chance that he would be hit with an uppercut.

Louis had an excellent jab, would get lower than Mike, and would tie Mike up when Mike got in close.

Mike would have no answer except to swing away as hard as he could until he eventually tired himself out both mentally and physically. Louis would pick up momentum start to dominate with just his jab and then knock Mike out in the later rounds.

Louis is one of the worst matchups for Mike.

And you talk about Louis having bad defense, but what did he get tagged with? Right hands over the top, and that rarely happened.

Mike usually hooked his right hand or threw it strait which isn't how you beat Joe Louis unless the right hand is a counterpunch, which isn't something that Mike excelled in.

[BITCH ASS]

Marvel........hit up a response....

[BITCH ASS]

bump

[lefthook31]

You are completely wrong about this. Tyson had the most trouble against big tall men. The uppercut business is not an issue. Louis used uppercuts against fighters who bent over in crouches. This isn't the way Tyson fights. He bends at the knees. Louis' money should would be the straight right, but he won't have a chance to land many, and prime Tyson takes a good shot.

The problem for Louis is that this simply cannot hold up under the combination of Tyson's thunder and accuracy. Since Louis lacks the defensive adequacy to avoid getting hammered, he's done for early.

99% of his opponents were big tall men. If anything he had trouble with shorter opponents, because he was so used to springing up at taller guys. In fact some of his comeback fights were riddled with wild swining misses over guys heads.