Once and for all Roy's chin

[Mind Reader]

Was it a glass chin, he protected superbly for all those years, or was it a good chin that faded with age? I know this thread has been made before, but seems to be alot of crap being talked about Roy's chin lately.

[Drofrah]

Its been pretty well stated on here that RJJ didnt have a 'glass' chin, it was just exposed as time went on, and by good shots

[Jazzo]

:patsch You guys.

How about, he got hit with the wrong shots?

[Drofrah]

:patsch You guys.

How about, he got hit with the wrong shots?

That too :good

[paulfv]

Worse than Lewis', which is saying a lot.

[Maxmomer]

Worse than Lewis', which is saying a lot.

Lewis had a damn good chin.

[paulfv]

Lewis had a damn good chin.
Compared to Jones he may have.

Compared to virtually any other perspective-ATG (especially at HW) his chin is atrocious, particularly for such a large man. Bowe, Holyfield, Tyson, Foreman, and both Klitschkos all had superior chins to Lewis, and that's just some of the HW's who held belts in the last 15 or so years. Of that group, only the Klitschkos can claim to be as large as Lewis.

[kg0208]

Compared to Jones he may have.

Compared to virtually any other perspective-ATG (especially at HW) his chin is atrocious, particularly for such a large man. Bowe, Holyfield, Tyson, Foreman, and both Klitschkos all had superior chins to Lewis, and that's just some of the guys who held belts in the last 15 or so years. Only the Klitschkos can claim to be as large as Lewis.

LMAO at both Klitscho's......yah, sure Wlad's chin is better. Chris Byrd is also the hardest hitting HW ever:deal

[paulfv]

LMAO at both Klitscho's......yah, sure Wlad's chin is better. Chris Byrd is also the hardest hitting HW ever:deal
Not only has Wlad never been 1-punch KO'd/TKO'd, he's never been counted out, unlike Lewis. Wlad has been KO'd by force of punches once, and that was to Corrie Sanders, who knocked Wlad down multiple times before the ref stopped the fight (with Wlad still on his feet).

To compare Lewis glass mandible to Wlad's chin is an insult to both reality and to Wlad. Lewis' chin isn't anywhere near as good as Wlad's, let alone Vitali's.

Lewis is a classic example of the eggshell-jawed fighter who can dish it out but can't take it, which is why he adopted the 'jab-and-grab' technique under trainer Manny Steward.

[kg0208]

Not only has Wlad never been 1-punch KO'd/TKO'd, he's never been counted out, unlike Lewis. Wlad has been KO'd by force of punches once, and that was to Corrie Sanders, who knocked Wlad down multiple times before the ref stopped the fight (with Wlad still on his feet).

To compare Lewis glass mandible to Wlad's chin is an insult to both reality and to Wlad. Lewis' chin isn't anywhere near as good as Wlad's, let alone Vitali's.

Lewis is a classic example of the eggshell-jawed fighter who can dish it out but can't take it, which is why he adopted the 'jab-and-grab' technique under trainer Manny Steward.


Blah blah blah....Lewis was only counted out once from a very solid punch. Wlad has been down more times than you have fingers. Nice try to justify Wlad's chin....but heart has nothing to do with chin. Wlad's chin is why he goes down, his heart is why he gets up.

It's amazing how you like to twist logic to meet your needs. Sorry, but when you have been stopped and down as much as Wlad, you cannot compare it to a guy who has been stoppeed 2 times and only down 2 times.

[Dekkers]

Not only has Wlad never been 1-punch KO'd/TKO'd, he's never been counted out, unlike Lewis. Wlad has been KO'd by force of punches once, and that was to Corrie Sanders, who knocked Wlad down multiple times before the ref stopped the fight (with Wlad still on his feet).

To compare Lewis glass mandible to Wlad's chin is an insult to both reality and to Wlad. Lewis' chin isn't anywhere near as good as Wlad's, let alone Vitali's.

Lewis is a classic example of the eggshell-jawed fighter who can dish it out but can't take it, which is why he adopted the 'jab-and-grab' in the first place under trainer Manny Steward.

There's not really a massive difference between Lewis' stoppage to McCall and Wlad's stoppage against Sanders.

There's only been one fight where Lewis looked to be 'glass' or weak jawed, and that was the first fight with Rahman. There are different ways of looking at it, after all Lewis was 35, so many heavyweights are finished by that age, his preperation wasn't the best either.

However there have been plenty of fights where his jaw has looked better than that, Mercer, Klitschko, Bruno, Tucker, a fair grading for Lewis' jaw would be average, some would rate it a little higher or lower. That jaw is far better than Hide or Bentt level.

[Drofrah]

This thread has just become another bullshit Jones Jr and Lewis have crap chins thread, fucking horseshit as neither had particularly bad chins anyway

[paulfv]

Blah blah blah....Lewis was only counted out once from a very solid punch. Wlad has been down more times than you have fingers. Nice try to justify Wlad's chin....but heart has nothing to do with chin. Wlad's chin is why he goes down, his heart is why he gets up.

It's amazing how you like to twist logic to meet your needs. Sorry, but when you have been stopped and down as much as Wlad, you cannot compare it to a guy who has been stoppeed 2 times and only down 2 times.
Incorrect.

A weak chin is what gets you KO'd/TKO'd by one punch, due to the force of the blow you received. That description fits Lewis.

It does not fit Wlad, who was twice exhausted yet still managed to end two of his three TKO losses on his feet relatively unhurt. The other TKO loss (which also saw Wlad on his feet at the end of the fight) saw Wlad absorb numerous KD's (the ability to get back up after having been hit is a great indicator of chin resiliency and strength) before being stopped.

One thing was for sure with Lewis - if you put him down, the fight was over and you won.

Because you cannot say the same thing for the relatively strong-jawed Wlad, it is both a travesty and demonstrates a lack of understanding of the sport and its basic elements to try to compare Lewis frail beard to Wlad's chin.

[kg0208]

Incorrect.

A weak chin is what gets you KO'd/TKO'd by one punch. That description fits Lewis.

It does not fit Wlad, who was twice exhausted yet still managed to end two of his three TKO losses on his feet relatively unhurt. The other TKO loss (which also saw Wlad on his feet at the end of the fight) saw Wlad absorb numerous KD's (the ability to get back up after having been hit is a great indicator of chin resiliency and strength) before being stopped.

One thing was for sure with Lewis - if you put him down, the fight was over and you won.

Because you cannot say the same thing for the relatively strong-jawed Wlad, it is both a travesty and demonstrates a lack of understanding of the sport and its basic elements to try to compare Lewis frail beard to Wlad's chin.
It's cute how you like to change definitions. So tell me then? What is it that cause Wlad to go down so often if not a weak chin?

You can try and put as much focus as you like on Lewis being stopped 2 times. However it doesn't discount the numerous times Wlad has been down in comparison and the fact that he has been stopped more. Besides, your argument on Lewis being stopped by one punch doesn't take into account the ferocity of the punches. Wlad has been down on nearly every solid shot he has been hit with in his career. Lewis has not.

[boxbox]

too confident..

[Stewbear]

A weak chin is when you get knocked down/out or hurt by weak punches, or you are hurt for a long time.
A weak chin is not defined by one punch, otherwise Tyson, and Duran along with others has glass jaws too!

[Carlos Primera]

the ironic thing is in one of rjj songs he boldly states "i'm mr. unstoppable, and still.... mr. unknockoutable"
:patsch
:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl

[paulfv]

It's cute how you like to change definitions. So tell me then? What is it that cause Wlad to go down so often if not a weak chin?

Wlad has a pathetic chin compared to Lewis. It's an insult that you even compare them.

End 2 of his 3 TKO losses relatively unhurt. Yah, that's why he looked out on his feet.

I changed nothing. I simply didn't accept your self-proclaimed -- and frankly ignorant -- definitions. I hope you are able to understand that difference.

Again, Lewis was stopped twice by the force of one blow. Wlad was never stopped even once using the same measurement. Why is that? Because Lewis can't take a punch anywhere near as well as Wlad can.

Formula: Boxer A or B hits Lewis with one right hand, Lewis falls down, fight is over and Boxer A or Boxer B wins by KO/TKO. 50% of the time Lewis gets up and the fight is called, 50% of the time Lewis is counted out while not on his feet.

Formula: Boxer C or D hits a gassed Wlad and Wlad is knocked down. BECAUSE WLAD HAS A DECENT CHIN, Wlad gets back on his feet. The ref, however, sees Wlad is out of gas and stops the fight. Wlad finishes on his feet, not having been stopped by the result of a punch, and certainly not as the result of a single punch.

Formula: Boxer E hits Wlad with a series of hard punches, particularly left hooks. Wlad is knocked down several times, and is eventually stopped after having absorbed repeated flush shots (DEMONSTRATING HIS STRONG CHIN). Wlad finishes the fight on his feet, having neither been counted out nor stopped by a single punch.


The guy who got 1-punch KO'd/TKO'd by Boxer A and Boxer B? He's the guy with the glass jaw, and the guy whose jaw is weaker than the guy who got TKO'd against Boxers C, D, and E. Having stamina issues doesn't mean you have a glass jaw, and getting repetitively KD'd (and never 1-punch KO'd/TKO'd) by a 240-pound man with some of the fastest hands ever by a HW landing clean, flush shots on your chin doesn't give you a 'glass jaw' either.

This isn't a complicated situation. The guy who was twice taken out by a single shot is the guy with the weaker jaw, the guy with the brittle beard. Don't out-think yourself here -- it's not a trick question.

[paulfv]

A weak chin is when you get knocked down/out or hurt by weak punches, or you are hurt for a long time.
A weak chin is not defined by one punch, otherwise Tyson, and Duran along with others has glass jaws too!


No, flukes happen. As is the case with Duran (and Hearns).

It's when 'flukes' repeat themselves -- as is the case with the two 1-punch KO/TKO Lewis losses -- that trends start and glass jaws are judged as such.

Duran never suffered another loss like he did to Hearns. Neither did Dempsey, who was once KO'd on one punch in the first round. Their KO losses were flukes.

For the china-chinned Lewis, the same cannot be said. And thus comes the verdict: "Glass-jaw." Once Rahman landed what Lewis referred to as a "lottery punch," Sir Rasta's mandible was forever fitted with the warning label: "Careful, all ye who strike here - glass inside."

No Rahman I and McCall I is just a fluke. But it happened, and thus Lewis goes from 'fluke TKO loser' to 'straight-up glass jawed' and forever 'jab-and-grab' proponent.

[Dekkers]

Pauly, can you honestly tell me with a straight face that if the referee stopped Wlad after the second kd against Sanders it would have been a far worse stoppage than Lewis v McCall? I really think they were in similar shape.

Also you haven't addressed the examples I sighted where Lewis' chin looked far better, I think this is the big difference, you try to define Lewis on his worst nights, while many of us who think more highly of Lewis look to avenged losses, and his career as a whole, particularly in regards to his chin.

[Bummy Davis]

He avoided getting clocked for years, but the way he went down and out from Tarver and Johnson, not really great punchers makes me wonder if he ever had a chin

[paulfv]

Pauly, can you honestly tell me with a straight face that if the referee stopped Wlad after the second kd against Sanders it would have been a far worse stoppage than Lewis v McCall? I really think they were in similar shape.

Also you haven't addressed the example I sighted where Lewis' chin looked far better, I think this is the big difference, you try to define Lewis on his worst nights, while many of us who think more highly at Lewis look to avenged losses, and his career as a whole, particularly in regards to his chin.
I'll have to go look. I just remember thinking after Wlad was knocked down for a 4th time by Sanders (only to, once again, get back on his feet): "Damn, if only Lewis had the chin this guy (WK) has he actually may have been as great as so many thought he was before the first Rahman fight. I wonder how Manny Steward would do with him after the wonders he did with glass-jawed Lenny?"

As far as the second paragraph of your repsonse let me get back to you. I actually have to do some real work (and get some 'real' rest) right now. Peace!

[Dekkers]

I'll have to go look. I just remember thinking after Wlad was knocked down for a 4th time by Sanders (only to, once again, get back on his feet): "Damn, if only Lewis had the chin this guy (WK) has he actually may have been as great as so many thought he was before the first Rahman fight. I wonder how Manny Steward would do with him after the wonders he did with glass-jawed Lenny?"

As far as the second paragraph of your repsonse let me get back to you. I actually have to do some real work (and get some 'real' rest) right now. Peace!
Cheers Paul, though I have to say that I think Wlads' chin is average for different reasons, i've seen Lewis take solid shots and be shaken but manage to stay on his feet. However with Wlad, his legs seem to give out more easily, even though he manages to get back up, Wlad seems easier to put on the canvas than Lewis but credit to him because he manages to get up, though there's only really been one occasion where the counts beaten Lewis to his feet.

Also Wlad seems weaker mentally, i've never seen him cockilly stand in front of a guy after taking punishment the way Lewis did against Briggs, Lewis actually seems to respond better to being hit, Wlad always struck me as more tentative and tight, not as confident as Lewis in the ring, and he likes being hit far less (I remember in the past he used to literally turn his head from punches, that strikes me as being excessively nervous under fire). He also doesn't fight at all in middle range, the way Lewis did, I think what I was talking about before has something to do with that.

[Stewbear]

No, flukes happen. As is the case with Duran (and Hearns).

It's when 'flukes' repeat themselves -- as is the case with the two 1-punch KO/TKO Lewis losses -- that trends start and glass jaws are judged as such.

Duran never suffered another loss like he did to Hearns. Neither did Dempsey, who was once KO'd on one punch in the first round. Their KO losses were flukes.

For the china-chinned Lewis, the same cannot be said. And thus comes the verdict: "Glass-jaw." Once Rahman landed what Lewis referred to as a "lottery punch," Sir Rasta's mandible was forever fitted with the warning label: "Careful, all ye who strike here - glass inside."

No Rahman I and McCall I is just a fluke. But it happened, and thus Lewis goes from 'fluke TKO loser' to 'straight-up glass jawed' and forever 'jab-and-grab' proponent.

Lewis Lewis had an iron chin:deal
[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[Stewbear]

No, flukes happen. As is the case with Duran (and Hearns).

It's when 'flukes' repeat themselves -- as is the case with the two 1-punch KO/TKO Lewis losses -- that trends start and glass jaws are judged as such.

Duran never suffered another loss like he did to Hearns. Neither did Dempsey, who was once KO'd on one punch in the first round. Their KO losses were flukes.

For the china-chinned Lewis, the same cannot be said. And thus comes the verdict: "Glass-jaw." Once Rahman landed what Lewis referred to as a "lottery punch," Sir Rasta's mandible was forever fitted with the warning label: "Careful, all ye who strike here - glass inside."

No Rahman I and McCall I is just a fluke. But it happened, and thus Lewis goes from 'fluke TKO loser' to 'straight-up glass jawed' and forever 'jab-and-grab' proponent.
Lennox Lewis was only ever knocked down twice.
How many other heavyweight champions can say this, seriously how many?

[Sug3]

I think it has to do more with the leg's,because once the leg's are gone it makes the chin that much weaker,cotto has a weak chin and strong leg's,trinidad has a weak chin and strong leg's,so the truth is once the leg's are gone your fu**ed.Trinidad leg's were gone late in the fight against hopkins and we all know the ending to that.

[Marnoff]

I think this is the big difference, you try to define Lewis on his worst nights, while many of us who think more highly of Lewis look to avenged losses, and his career as a whole, particularly in regards to his chin.

Avenging losses doesn't mean anything with regards to whether someone has a chin or not. I'm not making a statement about Lewis' chin, I'm just saying the logic doesn't fit.

[Dekkers]

Avenging losses doesn't mean anything with regards to whether someone has a chin or not. I'm not making a statement about Lewis' chin, I'm just saying the logic doesn't fit.
I was discussing how he looks at Lewis career in general, however I was alluding to my previous post where I pointed out fights where Lewis took a fair amount of punishment and showed a good chin (which is what I meant by this line "and his career as a whole, particularly in regards to his chin"). I'm saying he can't just look at the two losses and ignore these other fights (Bruno, Tucker, Mercer, Klitschko, etc), since I know how little he thinks of Lewis.

[Marnoff]

I was discussing how he looks at Lewis career in general, however I was alluding to my previous post where I pointed out fights where Lewis took a fair amount of punishment and showed a good chin (which is what I meant by this line "and his career as a whole, particularly in regards to his chin"). I'm saying he can't just look at the two losses and ignore these other fights (Bruno, Tucker, Mercer, Klitschko, etc).

Aye, I knew generally what you were getting across.

[FlatNose]

God, enough about Jones already, he's yesterdays news.He had his chance for greatness, but after stellar wins over Hopkins and Toney, he cherrypicked opponents, avoided Michaelsewski like the plauge, and just talked trash, made nasty faces, and fought his cocks.The win over Ruiz was no big deal, fatso Toney did it too.If Jones stepped up to fight Lennox Lewis, that would have been something to crow about.But Jones boasts continue to have more and more of a hollow ring.

[MacManJr.]

No way he had a glass jaw all those years!!!!

[ChampionsForever]

I think it was a decent chin that held up well at middle and super middle, it wasn't teste enough to be called a strong chin but it never failed him at the weight, but after the years and the strain he body had been through over the years it just went downhill, it happens to fighters, they can lose their speed, their timing their reflexes or their chins.

It happened to Sugar Ray Leonard, he was getting put on hes ass nd stopped later on in hes career by shots that he would have shrugged off in hes prime, just watch the second Hearns fight.

[Imperial1]

Seriously ,how many more dam threads are we going to have on this matter ?The man was knocked out twice after 15 fuckin yrs !!!

I think its safe to assume his chin is fine !!

Why is it that the dumb asses keep infecting these boards ???

[koko of phil]

I may think the way he got checked in his later fights, RJJ already had a glass chin and really got an incredible defense. But hey, I'll instead say Roy just got old and couldn't take shots no more like when he was younger.

[PATSYS]

Power and chin (and especially chin) are the last to go with age.

Matter of fact, to many fighters, chin seem to improve with age. See Holyfield, Foreman, Ali, etc.

I Jones got away with his movement and reflexes during his early years. And add to this, prolly his conditioning. Takes these 2 out and simply isolate Jones chin and you will see that it was never great.

Ali during the 60s has taken a lot of punishment. During the 70s, when his reflexes began to fade, his chin stood up for him as a testament that he really had great chin. Can not say the same for Jones.

[Ayatollah]

worse than judah.

[Rumsfeld]

worse than judah.

:yep

[Carlos Primera]

Power and chin (and especially chin) are the last to go with age.

Matter of fact, to many fighters, chin seem to improve with age. See Holyfield, Foreman, Ali, etc.

I Jones got away with his movement and reflexes during his early years. And add to this, prolly his conditioning. Takes these 2 out and simply isolate Jones chin and you will see that it was never great.

Ali during the 60s has taken a lot of punishment. During the 70s, when his reflexes began to fade, his chin stood up for him as a testament that he really had great chin. Can not say the same for Jones.

so is it safe to assume it was china all along??

[PATSYS]

so is it safe to assume it was china all along??

No, but it wasn't great.

[PATSYS]

Neither , it was most likely avaerage, and just couldnt handle the step up in weightclass.

He hid it well against Ruiz though. Exactly. But the starter of the thread didn't give that option, so I was forced to say he had a glass jaw - I chose this rather than saying he had a solid chin which he obviously doesn't have.

[Imperial1]

Exactly. But the starter of the thread didn't give that option, so I was forced to say he had a glass jaw - I chose this rather than saying he had a solid chin which he obviously doesn't have.

So he took a flush shot from a heavy and took flush shots in all of his fight with Tarver prob more in the first fight with Antonio and wasn't dropped .He gets hit with one lucky punch then folds after an accumilation of punches in the Johnson fight and now after his 15 yr reign and up in age his chin is not that solid ??


I really want to know what people are smoking !!

Beucase if thats the case every fighter who have ever been KO'ed has questionable chin !!!:patsch

I guess its safe to assume that every fighter who's ever suffered a KO has a questionable chin as well with this logic !!

[PATSYS]

So he took a flush shot from a heavy and took flush shots in all of his fight with Tarver prob more in the first fight with Antonio and wasn't dropped .He gets hit with one lucky punch then folds after an accumilation of punches in the Johnson fight and now after his 15 yr reign and up in age his chin is not that solid ??


I really want to know what people are smoking !!

Beucase if thats the case every fighter who have ever been KO'ed has questionable chin !!!:patsch

I guess its safe to assume that every fighter who's ever suffered a KO has a questionable chin as well with this logic !!

Those shots he got hit with are not hard.

Tarver never hit him solidly in the first fight.

Tarver hit him with a very hard left in the 2nd fight, he got koed.

Tarver hit him with a solid right hook in the 3rd fight, Jones legs turned rubber.

There is a good reason why he is reluctant Roy all these years - he himself knew his chin is not that great.

[Rumsfeld]

There is a good reason why he is reluctant Roy all these years - he himself knew his chin is not the great.

:yep

[the_churn]

This (and W. Klit's chin/stamina) has to be the most beaten to death subject on here. Who gives a shit?

[kg0208]

I changed nothing. I simply didn't accept your self-proclaimed -- and frankly ignorant -- definitions. I hope you are able to understand that difference.

Again, Lewis was stopped twice by the force of one blow. Wlad was never stopped even once using the same measurement. Why is that? Because Lewis can't take a punch anywhere near as well as Wlad can.

Formula: Boxer A or B hits Lewis with one right hand, Lewis falls down, fight is over and Boxer A or Boxer B wins by KO/TKO. 50% of the time Lewis gets up and the fight is called, 50% of the time Lewis is counted out while not on his feet.

Formula: Boxer C or D hits a gassed Wlad and Wlad is knocked down. BECAUSE WLAD HAS A DECENT CHIN, Wlad gets back on his feet. The ref, however, sees Wlad is out of gas and stops the fight. Wlad finishes on his feet, not having been stopped by the result of a punch, and certainly not as the result of a single punch.

Formula: Boxer E hits Wlad with a series of hard punches, particularly left hooks. Wlad is knocked down several times, and is eventually stopped after having absorbed repeated flush shots (DEMONSTRATING HIS STRONG CHIN). Wlad finishes the fight on his feet, having neither been counted out nor stopped by a single punch.


The guy who got 1-punch KO'd/TKO'd by Boxer A and Boxer B? He's the guy with the glass jaw, and the guy whose jaw is weaker than the guy who got TKO'd against Boxers C, D, and E. Having stamina issues doesn't mean you have a glass jaw, and getting repetitively KD'd (and never 1-punch KO'd/TKO'd) by a 240-pound man with some of the fastest hands ever by a HW landing clean, flush shots on your chin doesn't give you a 'glass jaw' either.

This isn't a complicated situation. The guy who was twice taken out by a single shot is the guy with the weaker jaw, the guy with the brittle beard. Don't out-think yourself here -- it's not a trick question.

No, you just simply altered the formula to fit your agenda. It's not my fault don't know an average chin (Lewis) from a bad one (Wlad). Ignorance is obviously bliss where you are from.

Your analysis is horrible, and full of excuses for Wlad, like all his pathetic fans.

Yes, Lewis has gone down from 2 hard shots in his career. One he got up from, one he did not. Wlad has been down what, 11 times? He does not "absorb" the shots, he falls to the canvas then gets back to his feet. I would venture to say that Wlad has never been hit by a shot like the one Rahman hit Lewis with, so your analysis was shit from the start because you still didn't take into account the actual power of the punches that stopped Lewis.

[Boinko]

So, let's say Roy does indeed have a glass chin. So what? In my opinion, he deserves even more praise for going all those years as a dominant champ and never getting KO'd until the Tarver fight.
No small feat for a guy with a glass chin.

Everyone gets so obsessed about the chin issue, and sometimes rightfully so. But, in my opinion overcoming physical deficiencies to excel at a sport is indeed admirable.
How many times have you heard smaller heavyweights get praised for hanging in there with the bigger guys. Well, like a guy with a bad chin, such fighters are dealing with a physical disadvantage. Some fighters will be able to deal with it successfully, others won't.
Some fighters with shaky chins can get by, others cannot.

Very few times does a fighter have the perfect physical arsenal to succeed, and demanding that each fighter should is stupid.

[Imperial1]

Those shots he got hit with are not hard.

Tarver never hit him solidly in the first fight.

Tarver hit him with a very hard left in the 2nd fight, he got koed.

Tarver hit him with a solid right hook in the 3rd fight, Jones legs turned rubber.

There is a good reason why he is reluctant Roy all these years - he himself knew his chin is not that great.

Tarver never hit him solid in their 1st fight ???Do you really beive this ?

[Bummy Davis]

God, enough about Jones already, he's yesterdays news.He had his chance for greatness, but after stellar wins over Hopkins and Toney, he cherrypicked opponents, avoided Michaelsewski like the plauge, and just talked trash, made nasty faces, and fought his cocks.The win over Ruiz was no big deal, fatso Toney did it too.If Jones stepped up to fight Lennox Lewis, that would have been something to crow about.But Jones boasts continue to have more and more of a hollow ring.

True

[A-50]

Roy Jones has a Glass Jaw. This is not to be debated unless you are a nuthugger.

[Mind Reader]

You don't have a good chin that gets worse you jack offs , You either have one or you don't !

:lol: Punch resistance can't decline as you get older?:lol:

[Mind Reader]

Roy Jones has a Glass Jaw. This is not to be debated unless you are a nuthugger.

Nah, you just avoid answering questions and ignoring facts with stupidity and go right back to your claim that doesn't hold any weight.
You can't carry a glass chin from middleweight to heavyweight. You will be hit, he was hit many times, ive seen him walk through alot of punches in his prime... A man with a glass jaw who was naturally a middleweight doesn't get hit by a heavyweight that dropped Holyfield, who's chin is still really good, and not at least fall down... FACT

[Mind Reader]

I think it was a decent chin that held up well at middle and super middle, it wasn't teste enough to be called a strong chin but it never failed him at the weight, but after the years and the strain he body had been through over the years it just went downhill, it happens to fighters, they can lose their speed, their timing their reflexes or their chins.

It happened to Sugar Ray Leonard, he was getting put on hes ass nd stopped later on in hes career by shots that he would have shrugged off in hes prime, just watch the second Hearns fight.


That's what I say, Im not claiming a iron chin.... It was a good chin that faded.:good

[Mind Reader]

You just described yourself . I think this is the problem , When we say he has a glass jaw we're comparing him to other great fighters , that he's in the same league with , who have gone there whole career without being knocked out . :good

He went through his biggest wins with only being knocked down once...There have been great chin fighters that get knocked out in their later years. Especially when moving up from their natural weight. You don't believe a chin can fade with age? Perhaps you described yourself as judging Jones' a bit harshly, you don't sound bias at all by the way.

[sues2nd]

Seriously ,how many more dam threads are we going to have on this matter ?The man was knocked out twice after 15 fuckin yrs !!!

I think its safe to assume his chin is fine !!

Why is it that the dumb asses keep infecting these boards ???

Seriously, this is so to the point and exactly the truth...I have no idea why this thread is still alive.

Great post bro....great post!!!

:happy

[paulfv]

kg - As someone who has made much of his livelihood from writing, it's simply not an efficient usage of my time to 'debate' a writer of your caliber. My advice to you is to continue to write as frequently as you can, as this is the surest way to improvement for a writer of your skill level and experience.

I have made my case regarding Lewis' chin numerous times on this forum with the help of hours of research. Your inability to follow the connective thread of my argument from one post to the next is neither my responsibility nor my concern. Hopefully when you get the chance you will review what we both have said and see the flaws in thought and presentation your posts have contained, particularly in your skewed portrayal of my own argument.

Until next time, best of luck and keep on writing! :)

[kg0208]

Antonio Tarver was the best Light heavyweight Jones fought and he knocked him out and out pointed him . Why is that so hard to except ?

Because it's not true. Hill was a better fighter when Jones fought him than Tarver when Jones fought him. I would venture to say that Griffin was as well. BTW, it's not like Tarver gave a rubber match to Harding, who beat Tarver and was beating Tarver before the KO. Jones beat him as well.

You only say Tarver was the best LHW Jones fought because he actually beat Jones.

[kg0208]

kg - As someone who has made much of his livelihood from writing, it's simply not an efficient usage of my time to 'debate' a writer of your caliber. My advice to you is to continue to write as frequently as you can, as this is the surest way to improvement for a writer of your skill level and experience.

I have made my case regarding Lewis' chin numerous times on this forum with the help of hours of research. Your inability to follow the connective thread of my argument from one post to the next is neither my responsibility nor my concern. Hopefully when you get the chance you will review what we both have said and see the flaws in thought and presentation your posts have contained, particularly in your skewed portrayal of my own argument.

Until next time, best of luck and keep on writing! :)

Acting superior doesn't make you superior. Your argument is full of holes. You remove certain factors from the equation for Lewis while adding others for Klitscho.

I am not going to get into this childish rhetoric. Bottom line, Klitscho has been down more times and stopped more times than Lewis. You can add in all the factors you like and manipulate them all you like. Doesn't matter to me.

[DanePugilist]

Neither of the choices imo. I think RRJs supernatural speed and talent avoided many flush hits, but if he had a glass jaw, he would have gone down much earlier in his career.

Not even sure if chins wither with age, but his reflexes did, and so did the outcome.

[paulfv]

Ok, moving on...

Here is an image which contains the beginning of a sequence Wlad has never experienced:

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Now, why do I say that Wlad has never experienced the sequence which this gif contains the opening frames of?

1. This is the start of Lennox Lewis being counted out (KO'd), something which has never happened to Wlad K as a professional fighter

2. This is the second time in his career that Lewis was stopped from the force of a single blow, something which has never happened to Wlad even once in his career, let alone twice.

These are but two factors (not counting the gif itself) which lead me to the conclusion that Wlad's chin is vastly superior to Lennox's own non-iron mandible.

To all aspiring writers: Stick with the facts, and avoid what is known as 'bait-and-switch'-type arguments. Engaging in such arguments is likely to lead to necessitated name-switches on sites like ESB due to embarrassment as a result of faulty predictions based on untenable 'analysis' which amounts to wishful thinking. Such a fate has befallen many an ESB'er, as well as many writers/posters on numerous other sites and forums. Suffice to say, I've never had the need to change my own name when using ESB's or any other forum, particularly not from projecting my own hopes onto a fighter(s) whose chin -- or any other physical attribute(s) -- is unable to bear the weight of my delusions. Associating yourself with such shoddy writing practices is a sure-fire way to lose credibility from reputable sources, readers, and posters.

Peace! :)

[Fighting Weight]

Wow a thread about Roy Jones has turned into a Lewis V WALDO argument :huh

A WALDO lover is posting that Lewis had a shaky chin, and used 'jab and grab' tactics :huh

This place is always good for a laugh, if nothing else.

[Snakefist]

If Jones had a glass jaw he wouldn't have been able to take bomb right hands from ruiz, he would've got KO'D in the first fight with Tarver as Tarver landed some big shots on him in a number of rounds, Glen Johnson would've KO'd him in the beginning of the fight but it took him 9 rounds of landing shots cleanly on a old Jones to do. If he had a glass chin the first time he ever got KD as a professional by Puerto Rico's Lou Del Valle, which btw was a vicious punch (I saw it :D ), he would've never got back up and dominated the rest of the fight.

He does not have a glass jaw, that's stupid. He had an average jaw. The second tarver fight, al I can say is he got caught from a bad angle or something. Because he took all of Tarver's shots in the first fight and wasn't rocked from what I could see. So it is strange. People act like the first fight never happened and all of a sudden his chin got exposed! He was getting hit with bombs in the first fight, which was competitive considering what Roy attempted to do, sweat off all that muscle mass.

[Fighting Weight]

I would venture to say that Wlad has never been hit by a shot like the one Rahman hit Lewis with, so your analysis was shit from the start because you still didn't take into account the actual power of the punches that stopped Lewis.

Lewis got hit with several punches in his career that if they'd hit WALDO it would have been fight over. Pretty much every time WALDO gets tagged with a hard shot, he goes down. Lewis faced 10 x better competition over a much longer period of time and went down twice.

Of course some people say Akinwande knocked Lewis down but that's sort of gone quiet lately too, cos it sort of destroys the pathetic 'never got off the canvas to win a fight' line :nut

[kg0208]

Arrogance rears it's ugly head again.

You should stick to the facts. Just make sure you look at the facts in the right context and don't place higher value on the set of facts that make your argument appear stronger.

If Fighter A has been hit by weaker shots than Fighter B, gone down from said shots numerous times and been stopped more than Fighter B, he most likely has a shakier chin. Fighter B may have been stopped by single shots, but it is likely from video evidence, that those shots were harder than the shots that dropped fighter A over and over.

[DanePugilist]

Arrogance rears it's ugly head again. If you don't agree with him, he always has his "I'm a writer" trump card.

Sorry, he is right. You should stick to the facts. Just make sure you look at the facts in the right context and don't place higher value on the set of facts that make your argument appear stronger.

If Fighter A has been hit by weaker shots than Fighter B, gone down from said shots numerous times and been stopped more than Fighter B, he most likely has a shakier chin. Fighter B may have been stopped by single shots, but it is likely from video evidence, that those shots were harder than the shots that dropped fighter A over and over.Couldn't have said it better, but then again it makes it a far more complicated process to consider so many abstracts to ones argument, when you wanna "win".

Its so much easier to look at one side of the coin and assume the flipside is the same.

[Zakman]

Compared to Jones he may have.

Compared to virtually any other perspective-ATG (especially at HW) his chin is atrocious, particularly for such a large man. Bowe, Holyfield, Tyson, Foreman, and both Klitschkos all had superior chins to Lewis, and that's just some of the HW's who held belts in the last 15 or so years. Of that group, only the Klitschkos can claim to be as large as Lewis.

Bingo. Lewis' chin is worse than Jones' too. Jones' chin only got bad towards end of his career, then he started getting starched. Lewis got starched twice in the heart of his career, and at younger ages, than Jones.:yep

[DanePugilist]

Yeah , He also beat Griffin the guy you just said was better then him and Hill was way past his prime so cut the shit . Tarver was the best he fought ..Tarver was past prime as well.

[Mind Reader]

Yeah , He also beat Griffin the guy you just said was better then him and Hill was way past his prime so cut the shit . Tarver was the best he fought ..

Here you go with your double standards...... You say Roy had to be in his prime because he was 34 right??? Guess how hold Hill was when Roy fought him???? 34, and you say he was WAY past his prime... didn't think about that did you idiot...:hi:

[kg0208]

Yeah , He also beat Griffin the guy you just said was better then him and Hill was way past his prime so cut the shit . Tarver was the best he fought ..
He beat Griffin 6 years AFTER Jones. And Hill was so past it, he went on to win ANOTHER title in a higher weight class. Hill wasn't way past his prime, he wasn't prime though.

Even that past his prime Hill wouild have beaten Tarver. He would have beaten that version of Jones too.

[Fighting Weight]

Bingo. Lewis' chin is worse than Jones' too. Jones' chin only got bad towards end of his career, then he started getting starched. Lewis got starched twice in the heart of his career, and at younger ages, than Jones.:yep

He was 35 when he lost to Rahman I think....round about the same age that Jones lost to Tarver. How old was Holy when little Bert Cooper nearly sent him through the ropes??

Let's also not forget that Lewis took all Holyfields shots, and nothing. No effect whatsoever....so either Lewis's chin is better than you say, or Holy can't punch for shit :deal

I won't even get into the '********* and stopped by a fat ex middleweight' either, just to be kind to you :good

[Mind Reader]

He beat Griffin 6 years AFTER Jones. And Hill was so past it, he went on to win ANOTHER title in a higher weight class. Hill wasn't way past his prime, he wasn't prime though.

Even that past his prime Hill wouild have beaten Tarver. He would have beaten that version of Jones too.

He says there is no way Roy was out of his prime at age 34 because its not that old, and then says Hill is way past his prime when Hill himself was 34 when Roy fought him... seems like he is bias.:lol:

[kg0208]

He says there is no way Roy was out of his prime at age 34 because its not that old, and then says Hill is way past his prime when Hill himself was 34 when Roy fought him... seems like he is bias.:lol:

Quite apparent that he doesn't like Jones much.

Fighters all age differently. Jones coming down in weight, no matter whether it was 15lbs of muscle or 25, certainly accelerated his demise. But Jones had been declining for years....just not losing.

[Mind Reader]

Quite apparent that he doesn't like Jones much.

Fighters all age differently. Jones coming down in weight, no matter whether it was 15lbs of muscle or 25, certainly accelerated his demise. But Jones had been declining for years....just not losing.

Jones was old for his age after cutting that weight... I don't care what anyone says, that can permenantly damage a body, especially when they are already on the decline.

[Carlos Primera]

how come tarver never gets any credit for ktfo rjj? it's always he was shot or faded or he was affected by the weight drain.

[A-50]

Jones was old for his age after cutting that weight... I don't care what anyone says, that can permenantly damage a body, especially when they are already on the decline.



:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol: permanant damage? LOL.

[kg0208]

how come tarver never gets any credit for ktfo rjj? it's always he was shot or faded or he was affected by the weight drain.

He gets credit. Just not credit for KOing a prime Jones. He certainly was not prime and hadn't been for a couple of years. However he deserves his credit for being the first man to beat Jones in the ring. He is also the only man to ever decision Jones.

[Mind Reader]

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol: permanant damage? LOL.

Yep... especially when you are older. Its easy to see that Roy lost something he will never get back, and I feel the weight loss contributed.

[Mind Reader]

how come tarver never gets any credit for ktfo rjj? it's always he was shot or faded or he was affected by the weight drain.

I give Tarver credit, but not exactly the credit he wants. He wants credit for being in the ring with the best Roy Jones there ever was... He will never get credit for that. I give him credit for calling out and beating Roy, even a non prime Roy is still a major accomplishment to have on your record.

[Mind Reader]

McLovin also thinks that Tarver beat the best Roy Jones.

[Zakman]

He was 35 when he lost to Rahman I think....round about the same age that Jones lost to Tarver. How old was Holy when little Bert Cooper nearly sent him through the ropes??

Let's also not forget that Lewis took all Holyfields shots, and nothing. No effect whatsoever....so either Lewis's chin is better than you say, or Holy can't punch for shit :deal

I won't even get into the '********* and stopped by a fat ex middleweight' either, just to be kind to you

Not sure what yer talkin' about on that last one!:lol:

For whatever it's worth - Jones was a couple of months YOUNGER when he got starched the FIRST time, than when Lewis was laid out the LAST time. And, he was about 6 years older when he got starched the first time than Lewis was for his first. Jones showed greater durability throughout his career, while Lewis was stopped when he was in his late 20s and then again in his mid-thirties.

As far as Holyfield, who ever said he was a thunderous puncher at HW?? And he was 37 when he faced Lewis, and had already shown noticeable decline.

[BlueApollo]

Acting superior doesn't make you superior. Your argument is full of holes. You remove certain factors from the equation for Lewis while adding others for Klitscho.

I am not going to get into this childish rhetoric. Bottom line, Klitscho has been down more times and stopped more times than Lewis. You can add in all the factors you like and manipulate them all you like. Doesn't matter to me.

:good

All the argumentation in the world can not get around specious premises. Your first is that the ability to absorb force exists independently from conditioning and the abilities to relax and recover. Your second is that a TKO loss is somehow less indicative of a weak chin than a KO. If anything it should be the other way around. In the former instance, a fighter is deemed to be in such physical danger that he must not be allowed to continue. In the latter, the fighter retains enough possession of his faculties that matters are in his own hands to the end.

On a more speculative note, look at the hard punchers Lennox beat. How can you compare a raw Sam Peter (easily Wlad's most dangerous fight since losing to Brewster) to 90's versions of Mercer, Tua, or even Golota and Briggs? We haven't seen Wlad in with this caliber of puncher recently, and with the way the division looks, we probably never will. I doubt I'm alone in picking at least one of those four to put Wlad into, to quote Phil Liggett, "severe difficulties."

Also, I'd love to see Wlad simply "walk through" the right hand Rock threw to put down Lennox. I guess since he'd get up only to fall like a dictator's statue over and over again until the ref spared him a possibly life threatening blow, it would prove to you he has a better chin. Debate class is a hell of a drug.

The first Tarver fight proves Roy had at least something of a chin. But he was hit so rarely in his prime, who really knows what kind of chin he had then?