Does Frochs win over Taylor beat any victory on Calzaghes resume?

[draw99]

Personally I think its pretty close. I think you can probably say that Calzaghes best victories are:

Kessler
Lacy
Hopkins

Kessler and Lacy both very good fighters, but neither has proved themselves as anything special at all since their respective losses to Calzaghe, and these victories dont look as impressive now as they did at the time. I'd take Frochs victory over Taylor as a better scalp than Kessler or Lacy fairly comfortably.

Which leaves Hopkins. Hopkins didnt fight at all well by his standards on the night and yet Calzaghe only scrapped the win. Talyor looked very good against Froch, stamina issues at the end notwithstanding, and I actually think was a marginally tougher fight for his opponent than the Hopkins that faced Calzaghe.

For the record, I would still back Calzaghe over Froch in a head to head, but I'd back Taylor to beat Calzaghe.

Anyone agree?!

[slapsSOgood]

No.

[slapsSOgood]

Plus the Kessler victory definitely overshadows the Taylor victory. Kessler was a big strong undefeated SMW, Taylor came up from Middleweight and was the smaller man. JC looked in control for over half of that fight, Froch didnt look in control until the final two rounds, really.

I think Kessler would destroy Taylor, and probably take Froch to a UD win.

[threethirteen]

What a wonderfully selective way to look at the Hopkins performance. You could say that, despite Hopkins going out of his way to nullify Calzaghe's offence, Joe managed to pull out the win. It was a godawful fight, with Joe being sloppy early and Hopkins avoiding actually fighting late on. Even then, Hopkins battered Pavlik around for 12 rounds in his next fight, which tells you a lot about Joe's performance to even scrape that win.

His best victories are:

Kessler
Lacy
Hopkins
Eubank
Jones Jr

You're wrong about Taylor beating Joe. Taylor doesn't have the fortitude or stamina to keep up with a guy who's always throwing shots at him. Taylor dislikes pressure and, every time he throws, Calzaghe would be firing multiple shots, cutting Jermain up before finishing him through exhaustion.

[Grant1]

No.

[GazOC]

No.

[Neverchair]

A big part of judging this is how well Taylor does in future.

Yes Lacy was never the same after the Calzaghe fight and Kessler hasnt been up to much but if Taylor doesnt fight or beat anyone of high calibre now he's not going to look good and it may devalue Froch's victory.

In terms of importance i'd say:

1. Calzaghe vs Kessler
2. Calzaghe vs Lacy
3. Froch vs Taylor

......but what a fight that was!

[widdy]

What a wonderfully selective way to look at the Hopkins performance. You could say that, despite Hopkins going out of his way to nullify Calzaghe's offence, Joe managed to pull out the win. It was a godawful fight, with Joe being sloppy early and Hopkins avoiding actually fighting late on. Even then, Hopkins battered Pavlik around for 12 rounds in his next fight, which tells you a lot about Joe's performance to even scrape that win.

His best victories are:

Kessler
Lacy
Hopkins
Eubank
Jones Jr

You're wrong about Taylor beating Joe. Taylor doesn't have the fortitude or stamina to keep up with a guy who's always throwing shots at him. Taylor dislikes pressure and, every time he throws, Calzaghe would be firing multiple shots, cutting Jermain up before finishing him through exhaustion.

well out of them 5 you got
1 real good un -kessler
1 vastly overated-lacy
1 supergrandad-hopkins
1 past it -eubanks
1 way past it-RJJ

kessler win is by far the best,lacy,well, is well overated,hopkins,only a good win off the back of his win over pavlik
eubanks was well past it,and he giv JC a hard time
and RJJ fight,more of a spar if you ask me,it was a joke fight.

so in my eyes theres only kessler who stands out more on JC record,and ofcourse taylor has beat hopkins and lacy:hey:hey:hey

[LiamE]

I'd rank the Taylor win equal with the Eubank win. Taylor is 30, Eubank was 31, both were world class at their best but had lost a couple of times previously. Taylor has never proved much at 168, Eubanks 168 pedigree unquestioned but Eubanks was a bit further removed from his best. Froch is in his prime for Taylor, Joe was still green for Eubank. Joe was always winning, Carl showed huge grit to win from behind. Both very good wins and difficult to split in my opinion.

[robpalmer135]

its a better win than Jones Jnr.

[mryeags]

Kessler win was by far JC's best performance ...but lets put this in comparison with Frochs win !

Froch fought away from home , Calzaghe was in cardiff ! ..... Froch fought a fighter who has been in and beaten top quality opponents - Hopkins in his prime and Winky Wright who he drew with !

This was Frochs first defence which makes the performance and enormity of the task even greater - ... fair play to froch this victory was better than any of Calzaghes wins .... it doesnt make him a greater fighter just this shows the character of the man to go stateside against a true world class opponent for a first defence of his world title ... quality Mr Froch may i wish you well cos in this age of boxers ducking big fights froch went out and demanded a big fight to show the boxing world he is the real deal !

In fairness Calzaghe beat a few contenders after Eubank , Lacy may not have been that good anyway , Kessler was a brilliant victory as I believe Kessler could be something special if he ever gets a meaningful fight , Hopkins and Jones were poor fights all in all .. both seemingly over the hill despite Hoppos brilliant victory over Pavlik ....

[Mike_S]

It could be better, he went over to the states as the underdog for his first defence against an opponent more proven than Lacy and even Kessler (although I think Kessler is a better fighter) and much closer to his prime than Hopkins and Jones.

[almsn]

No chance , shouldn't even be mentioned as beating Calzaghe's resume .

[TFFP]

It's funny people like to mention Taylor "beat" Hopkins. I'd like to remind them that Hop beat the shit out of Pavlik, who beasted Taylor. This A B type logic is bullshit.

"At the end of the day" Hopkins is a legend of the sport, a top 50 great, and p4p top 5 as we speak. Taylor just ain't.

[threethirteen]

TFFP, your reason and clarity always do make me laugh. In a good way, though.

[icemax]

No chance , shouldn't even be mentioned as beating Calzaghe's resume .

Firstly, shut the fuck up noob :thumbsup

Secondly, Enzo is that you fucking about on the computer again?

[Carnage]

Def bigger win than Calzaghe vs Kessler, I mean I was more in this behind this point before less so now, but still bigger. Taylor would beat Kessler in my opinion. If Froch beats Kessler, then what do you think, better than any of Calzaghe's fights??

[brown bomber]

Bigger then Lacy and bigger then Kessler... not as big as the Hopkins win. Pavliks wins over Taylor aren't going to go down well in the history books but to draw with Winky and beat Hopkins is more then anything Lacy or Kessler have managed thus far. Personally I think Kessler would nick a tight one on points over Jermain and Froch but he's no great shakes.

[Fat Joe]

Def bigger win than Calzaghe vs Kessler, I mean I was more in this behind this point before less so now, but still bigger. Taylor would beat Kessler in my opinion. If Froch beats Kessler, then what do you think, better than any of Calzaghe's fights??

:huh

[TFFP]

:huh
:lol:

The new breed of Froch hugger is going to be entertaining.

[brown bomber]

:lol:

The new breed of Froch hugger is going to be entertaining.

:DCarnage - that has to be the single most intranslatable post i've ever seen- WTF.

[brown bomber]

If Kessler went to the states and KO'd Taylor TFFP would have one of the greatest hard ons in the history of iceland.

[zulander]

hahahaha
Its a damm good win. JC over hopkins was a better win. If Froch can build on this fight the likes of Bute and Kessler or who ever else is top dog at super middle then the discussion will be who had the better career. slightly OT but why does no one ever mention Robin Reid as one of JC's better wins?

[Carnage]

:DCarnage - that has to be the single most intranslatable post i've ever seen- WTF.
I do not actually know what I supposed to write there, sorry momentary lapse in normality there!

[icemax]

If Kessler went to the states and KO'd Taylor TFFP would have one of the greatest hard ons in the history of iceland.

:rofl:rofl We know its true...great poster, but as biased as fuck.

[Carnage]

:lol:

The new breed of Froch hugger is going to be entertaining.
New breed?!I might be new on this site, but have been here since Jan, same pic, same everything....

[jcrh22]

Joe's win over Hopkins was the best (even if the worst fight) as Hopkins was p4p top 5 and still is and prior to Joe beat Tarver and Winky and Post Joe beat Pavlik (all 3 of those at the time hopkins fought them were p4p top 15).

2nd I would say was Joe vs Kessler, manner of the fight and Kessler would beat Taylor quite comfortably in my eyes, just too strong with a good stamina and good boxing skills to boot.

3rd is Froch vs Taylor, very tight fight, with Taylor out boxing Froch for the first 4 rounds easily but Froch started working off his Jab and pressured him and won in emphatic style.

and 4th is Calzaghe vs Lacy although that was easily the best fight Joe ever fought and his timing, footwork and speed would of given anyone trouble on that night.

Also I think Calzaghe's style is all wrong for Froch if they ever fought.

[threethirteen]

Let's also not forget:

Froch had no choice. If he wanted the money and if he wanted to make a legacy of his own he HAD to go to the US. there was no one else for him to fight.

[LiamE]

Def bigger win than Calzaghe vs Kessler, I mean I was more in this behind this point before less so now, but still bigger.

7Dza6CaReV4

[Grant1]

I do not actually know what I supposed to write there, sorry momentary lapse in normality there!

That was quality :lol:

[Carnage]

Let's also not forget:

Froch had no choice. If he wanted the money and if he wanted to make a legacy of his own he HAD to go to the US. there was no one else for him to fight.
What difference does it make?Doesn't make him less of a fighter just because he fought a difficult fight earlier (even though he isn't young) in his career. This shows that Froch will have to fight quality fighters now where Calzaghe could afford to fight poor fighters just for an easy pay day.

["TKO"]

I personally think it's beats all Joe's wins excluding the Hopkins fight...

To be honest I think Kessler is overrated, yes he gave Joe a good fight in Cardiff but most of his fights have been at home in Copenhagen against so-so oppostion..

This is where Froch's win should come into perspective, he travelled into a renowed world class operators territory who had more experience than him for his 1st defence like Froch or not you have cannot take that away for him & thus he deserves imo great respect..

Between 1997 - 2006 - did you see Joe going into a Strong contenders backyard to unify titles...

Froch didn't unify titles either, and whilst I give him credit for going to the U.S. to fight Taylor, his own low profile probably dictated the circumstances. You can't blame Calzaghe for not doing though, there was simply no super middle out there with whom a fight could be made and who was a big enough fight to warrant Calzaghe going abroad for it.

[TFFP]

If Kessler went to the states and KO'd Taylor TFFP would have one of the greatest hard ons in the history of iceland.
I'd have a hard on if an actual fight was announced. It's slim pickings at the moment.

[Bodysnatcher]

It doesn't beat Calzaghe's win over Kessler.

It may well rank higher than any of the rest of Joe's wins.

[p.Townend]

It beats the wins over Jones and Hopkins but not Kessler or Lacy.

[46and0]

Give Froch a chance ! Perhaps in his next 2 fights he will have a unification fight..

Re Calzaghe & unification - surely there were oppurtunites within that roughly 10 yr period for big fights & unify titles ????
Ottke didn't want to know.

[almsn]

Firstly, shut the fuck up noob :thumbsup

Secondly, Enzo is that you fucking about on the computer again?

Kessler's better that Taylor I think . I think Hopkins would do to Froch what he done to Pavlik as well .

[almsn]

I think it would be a bit harsh on Calzaghe saying that plus I don't think it's true . Froch's fought twice above domestiv level , Pascal and Taylor . Calzaghe's 46-0 , something like 20 plus defences of his wbo belt . Kessler , Hopkins , Eubank , Lacy who Calzaghe ruined . Not to mention the two defeats Taylor had to Pavlik which could have took him out his prime .Kessler was a young undefeated champion so I don't think Froch beating Taylor was as good as Calzaghe beating Kessler so the answer for me is defintley no .

[El Cepillo]

It's funny people like to mention Taylor "beat" Hopkins. I'd like to remind them that Hop beat the shit out of Pavlik, who beasted Taylor. This A B type logic is bullshit.

"At the end of the day" Hopkins is a legend of the sport, a top 50 great, and p4p top 5 as we speak. Taylor just ain't.

Yeah true. But knocking a guy out is a better result than winning a disputed split decision.

[El Cepillo]

I think Froch's knock out victory over Taylor is better than anything on Calzaghe's resume.

Despite the H2H's, Hopkins is a better fighter than Taylor, but Hopkins was approaching his mid-40's, and it wasn't a clear or clean win for Calzaghe.

At the end of the day (:hey) Taylor was a former undisputed champion, who had beaten Hopkins twice. Kessler, Lacy and Tocker Pudwill just don't compare to the level of prestige that Taylor has.

[JonOli]

"As good as the Eubank win". :lol:

Personally I'd rank it below the Kessler and Hopkins wins slightly. If Kessler does nothing, prove nothing of real note, as he continues to do - I think it's possibly fair to move it above that.

[Diablo]

I think Froch's knock out victory over Taylor is better than anything on Calzaghe's resume.

Despite the H2H's, Hopkins is a better fighter than Taylor, but Hopkins was approaching his mid-40's, and it wasn't a clear or clean win for Calzaghe.

At the end of the day (:hey) Taylor was a former undisputed champion, who had beaten Hopkins twice. Kessler, Lacy and Tocker Pudwill just don't compare to the level of prestige that Taylor has.

Taylor lost his "prestige" when Pavlik beat the shit out of him twice. His flaws had been exposed and exploited in previous fights.

Lacy and Kessler were coming in as super confident undefeated champions (and highly fancied to win).

So heres another person trying to downplay the Hopkins win by typing his age.....sigh... why not ask Tarver, Wright and Pavlik if hes past it? Hes still a p4p level fighter and made the fight very ugly..but Calzaghe found a way to win. Credit to Froch for also finding a way to win but it wasnt exactly convincing either.

The win is on par with Calzaghe vs Eubank imo.

[debaser]

You can devalue any fighter's achievements if you set out to. Eg - Taylor's entire reputation was built upon two highly disputable decisions against a 40 year old Bernard Hopkins. He achieved nothing else.

[JonOli]

Eubank wasn't even a top ten contender at the time Joe fought him and took the fight at 11 days notice (could be wrong on that but it was very short notice). How can you compair? People like Steve Collins was saying Eubank was a madman to take the fight. It's insulting to suggest the great victory for Froch over Taylor, in the US, is on a par with Calzaghe's Eubank win.

Speaking of that fight, I watched that fight again the other day actually, it's on You tube. The commentators repeatedly state how past his best Eubank is and expect a reletive unknown to win the fight.

Also, I was quite surprised, they refer to Calzaghe as a light arm puncher, and slapper. They comment on his cuffing style and say its illegal. I was quite surprised to be honest, I didn't remember people making those sort of comments back then - even in his first ever title fight. It's on youtube if you don't believe me, they pass the comments in the first few rounds.

[JonOli]

Here's part of a newspaper artical from the time

EU ARE MAD!; Collins calls `shot' Chris *******s to fight kid Joe.

Chris Eubank heads back into the big-time branded "a shot fighter" by the man who destroyed him.
Steve Collins reckons Eubank is *******s to take on hungry youngster Joe Calzaghe.
They meet in Sheffield next Saturday night for the WBO super-middleweight world title made vacant by Dubliner Collins' decision to retire from the ring

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[LiamE]

Eubank wasn't even a top ten contender at the time Joe fought him and took the fight at 11 days notice. How can you compair. People like Steve Collins was saying Eubank was a madman to take the fight. It's insulting to suggest the great victory for Froch over Taylor, in the US, is on a par with Calzaghe's Eubank win.

Speaking of that fight, I watched that fight again the other day actually, it's on You tube. The commentators repeatedly state how past his best Eubank is and expect a reletive unknown to win the fight.

Also, I was quite surprised, they refer to Calzaghe as a light arm puncher, and slapper. They comment on his cuffing style and say its illegal. I was quite surprised to be honest, I didn't remember people making those sort of comments back then - even in his first ever title fight. It's on youtube if you don't believe me, they pass the comments in the first few rounds.

The Eubank that fought calzage would have beaten the Taylor of Saturday night without question. Floyd Mayweather is not a top ten fighter on current rankings. I guess beating him wouldnt mean much now either.

As for the arm punch comments listen to it again.... the commentators say some have said it and Calzaghe has proved them wrong.

And last but not least Eubank was in traning for a fight, same as Joe was. They BOTH took the fight at 11 days notice. Clearly they were both in excellent condition and the late opponent swaps mean little if anything.

[KCD]

Personally I think its pretty close. I think you can probably say that Calzaghes best victories are:

Kessler
Lacy
Hopkins

Kessler and Lacy both very good fighters, but neither has proved themselves as anything special at all since their respective losses to Calzaghe, and these victories dont look as impressive now as they did at the time. I'd take Frochs victory over Taylor as a better scalp than Kessler or Lacy fairly comfortably.

Which leaves Hopkins. Hopkins didnt fight at all well by his standards on the night and yet Calzaghe only scrapped the win. Talyor looked very good against Froch, stamina issues at the end notwithstanding, and I actually think was a marginally tougher fight for his opponent than the Hopkins that faced Calzaghe.

For the record, I would still back Calzaghe over Froch in a head to head, but I'd back Taylor to beat Calzaghe.

Anyone agree?!





A definitive NO:lol:

Froch was behind on the cards, been put down, and was being outboxed and outpunched.

Also Taylor was a guy who was known for struggling in the championship rounds, but Froch did what he had to do.

Froch needs to take along look at his technique and tighten up because i cant see him going undefeated for long with the way he fought last night.

[LiamE]

Here's part of a newspaper artical from the time

EU ARE MAD!; Collins calls `shot' Chris *******s to fight kid Joe.

Chris Eubank heads back into the big-time branded "a shot fighter" by the man who destroyed him.
Steve Collins reckons Eubank is *******s to take on hungry youngster Joe Calzaghe.
They meet in Sheffield next Saturday night for the WBO super-middleweight world title made vacant by Dubliner Collins' decision to retire from the ring

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Collins bricked it. He knew Calzaghe would have done a number on him.

Eubanks comments after the fight sum it.... "Now I know why Collins didnt want to fight him"

[JonOli]

The Eubank that fought calzage would have beaten the Taylor of Saturday night without question. Floyd Mayweather is not a top ten fighter on current rankings. I guess beating him wouldnt mean much now either.

As for the arm punch comments listen to it again.... the commentators say some have said it and Calzaghe has proved them wrong.

And last but not least Eubank was in traning for a fight, same as Joe was. They BOTH took the fight at 11 days notice. Clearly they were both in excellent condition and the late opponent swaps mean little if anything.


Well we shall have to disagree to agree, no way on earth do I think Joes win over Eubank is better than Froch's triumph the other night. For a start off a faded Eubank didn't even have a proper training camp due to the short notice given...

By the way Eubank wasn't in the rankings because he was getting his arse beat, or fighting exceedingly diabolical level oponents and fighting them once in a blue moon. Not becaue he had retired (like Floyd) - he'd dropped out the ranking for a long while.

Anyway, just been looking at the news from back then, Ray Close was kicking up a fuss because he was ranked above Eubank and should have really got the fight. Don't remember that...

[TFFP]

What is clear is that Kessler and Hopkins are vastly superior wins. Neither demonstrates the horrible flaws of Taylor in the ring. The guy got whooped by Pavlik, jesus.

[JonOli]

As for the arm punch comments listen to it again.... the commentators say some have said it and Calzaghe has proved them wrong.



To be fair I think they do, but I was just surprised that he was tagged with that even back then.

[KCD]

What is clear is that Kessler and Hopkins are vastly superior wins. Neither demonstrates the horrible flaws of Taylor in the ring. The guy got whooped by Pavlik, jesus.

Plus he struggled in his victories over much smaller men in Ouma and Spinks.

Taylor is a good fighter but he isnt elite, plus he was winning the fight and Froch was struggling the whole fight.

[JonOli]

A definitive NO:lol:

Froch was behind on the cards, been put down, and was being outboxed and outpunched.

Also Taylor was a guy who was known for struggling in the championship rounds, but Froch did what he had to do.

Froch needs to take along look at his technique and tighten up because i cant see him going undefeated for long with the way he fought last night.


Well Joe hardly looked like Mr Technique against Hopkins. You know Hopkins the guy Taylor "beat" twice.

*Cue... "no one looks good against Hopkins etc : )*

[icemax]

For a first defence of his legit WBC title Froch picked a tough nut in Taylor and travelled to the US, in the first defence of his less than stellar WBO strap Calzaghe caught the bus to Cardiff and took on the 14-1 HoF candidate Branko Sobot.....I wonder whatever happened to him

[Diablo]

Even a late notice Eubank has a FAR better gas tank than Taylor.

It was a great win for Froch.......but if posters want to be ultra critical - Taylor was damaged goods, with no stamina and was moving up in weight.

[TFFP]

Yup. It demonstrated quite well the gulf between Froch's heart, will and strength in comparison to his boxing ability. He has little to speak of in the latter department. One of the worst boxers around at the moment holding a world title.

I think his winning run will come to an abrupt halt shortly considering the names they are calling out. Sheer guts will not always win the day, if there is somebody nearly equally as determined in training camp and then the ring.

[LiamE]

Well we shall have to disagree to agree, no way on earth do I think Joes win over Eubank is better than Froch's triumph the other night. For a start off a faded Eubank didn't even have a proper training camp due to the short notice given...

By the way Eubank wasn't in the rankings because he was getting his arse beat, or fighting exceedingly diabolical level oponents and fighting them once in a blue moon. Not becaue he had retired (like Floyd) - he'd dropped out the ranking for a long while.

Anyway, just been looking at the news from back then, Ray Close was kicking up a fuss because he was ranked above Eubank and should have really got the fight. Don't remember that...

Eubank was out of the rating because he retired in 95 and had only fought a couple of bums since.

Its interesting that Collins called Eubank shot... shows a lack of class IMO. Especially when he was talking about a guy that clearly could have KO'ed in the 10th in their first fight and many thought beat him in their second.

Shot guys dont jump up 2 divisions and go 12 rounds with a champ, who later beat David Haye lest we forget ,and lose VERY narrowly once and get stopped on an injury while ahead on the second try. Had they left it more than 3 months between the figths so that Eubanks eye could have healed prperly after the first bout he most likely would have won the second.

Eubank clearly was a guy that rose to the occasion, put him in with a bum and he won but looked ordinary, put him in with a champ and he looked world class. He looked shit in many fights through his career - remember the Thornton fight or the Costa fight? You could say he was shot after either of those. But his performances after proved otherwise. Same with him after Collins and Calzaghe. He proved after that he still had a lot left, despite some people at the time thinking he was past it.

Eubank has never bitched about his loses. It seems people like to do the bitching for him sometimes though.

[UndisputedUK]

Look at it this way........

Froch beat Pascal for the vacant title whilst Calzaghe beat Eubank.
Pascal was undefeated at the time. Eubank was weight drained and had lost to Collins twice. Pascal could go on to beat WBC lightheavyweight champion Adrian Diaconu. That would increase Froch's standing greatly, if Pascal was to achieve something with his career.

Calzaghe struggled with Hopkins and beat Lacy big. However, Taylor beat Hopkins twice and beat Lacy recently. Froch Ko'ed Taylor.

I think it's unfair to criticise Froch for what he has done so far. He's paid his dues and taken risks to progress his career. His fights are highly entertaining too. They will want to see more of him in the USA after that fight.

I cannot wait for his next fight, after all he is the UK's only World Champion at the moment.

["TKO"]

Well we shall have to disagree to agree, no way on earth do I think Joes win over Eubank is better than Froch's triumph the other night. For a start off a faded Eubank didn't even have a proper training camp due to the short notice given...

By the way Eubank wasn't in the rankings because he was getting his arse beat, or fighting exceedingly diabolical level oponents and fighting them once in a blue moon. Not becaue he had retired (like Floyd) - he'd dropped out the ranking for a long while.

This is incorrect. Eubank retired after the second Collins fight and dropped out of the magazine rankings due the the fact that most of them drop a fighter when they have been inactive for at least a year. Once he came back, he fought twice at light heavy so couldn't get back into the 168 rankings.

[draw99]

Lots of good arguments here -thanks :good

I expected to get gunned down regarding Hopkins - general consensus seems to be that Calzaghes victory over Hopkins was superior.

The Kessler victory seems to be getting a lot more kudos than I expected.

I'm still a bit undecided as to how to judge Kessler really. He needs to get himself on a plane and go and fight some yanks!

[JonOli]

This is incorrect. Eubank retired after the second Collins fight and dropped out of the magazine rankings due the the fact that most of them drop a fighter when they have been inactive for at least a year. Once he came back, he fought twice at light heavy so couldn't get back into the 168 rankings.


Eubank did not make the Ring annual 1995 top ten SMW rankings (the year of the Collins defeats). Whether they booted him out for losing and beating no one of note that year or for announcing his semi retirement a few months earlier - I don't know for sure.

It's strange how few give Collins much credit for beating a two and a half years fresher version of Eubank.

["TKO"]

Eubank did not make the Ring annual 1995 top ten SMW rankings (the year of the Collins defeats). Whether they booted him out for losing and beating no one of note that year or for announcing his semi retirement a few months earlier after the Collins fight - I don't know for sure.

It's strange how few give Collins much credit for beating a two and a half years fresher version of Eubank.

Maybe but that's a separate issue. My logical view would be that dropping a fighter from the rankings would be a logical response to his announcing his retirement but who knows...

[El Cepillo]

Taylor lost his "prestige" when Pavlik beat the shit out of him twice. His flaws had been exposed and exploited in previous fights.

Lacy and Kessler were coming in as super confident undefeated champions (and highly fancied to win).

So heres another person trying to downplay the Hopkins win by typing his age.....sigh... why not ask Tarver, Wright and Pavlik if hes past it? Hes still a p4p level fighter and made the fight very ugly..but Calzaghe found a way to win. Credit to Froch for also finding a way to win but it wasnt exactly convincing either.

The win is on par with Calzaghe vs Eubank imo.

At the risk of sounding like a broken record....Taylor was the undisputed middleweight champion and he did beat Bernard Hopkins twice. These facts are not erased from our collective memory just because he subsequently loses a couple of fights. You talk about Taylor's "flaws" being "exposed and exploited", and then go on to suggest that Calzaghe beating Lacy is somehow a better win....

Lacy was clearly never that great, it debatable whether he was even any good. He had a belt, but had beaten no one of any great consequence. He also lost to Taylor in his last fight incidentally (which in itself is not particularly relevant). The fact that you mention him being "super confident" is really amusing, like this is somehow a legitimate criteria for measuring the quality of a win. Hamed was "super confident" he would beat Barrera, and we all know how that turned out.

What it comes down to is this: Had Kessler and Lacy ever beaten a fighter as good as Bernard Hopkins (twice)? Had they achived anything vaguely comprable to being the undisputed Middleweight Champion? The answer to both these questions is clearly a resounding 'no'.

Like it or not, age is relevant. And Hopkins was 43 when Calzaghe fought him. Can you not see the signifigance of this fact, given the way Calzaghe "won" the fight?

Hopkins clearly had the stamina of a 43 year old man, Calzaghe "won" because he had better stamina which meant a higher workrate. Put Calzaghe in with the Hopkins that fought Tito and Hopkins running out of steam mid-fight would not have been an issue.

You say that Froch's win "wasn't convincing", which in itself is a bizzare position to take. His performance for much of the fight might not have been convincing, but knocking your opponent out is clearly a very convincing way to win. It's also a "way to win" that is much more "convincing" than Calzaghe winning a highly disputed split decision, in a fight that many people feel he actually lost (including one of the judges).

I think Calzaghe's win over Eubank is a good one. Mostly because Calzaghe was green as hell and Eubank was still a very tough competitor despite being about 7 years past his absolute prime. However, it is not better than Froch's win over Taylor for the following reasons: Eubank was extemly shop worn, on a losing streak at the end of his career and struggling to make the weight for a fight he took at short notice. All these factors are clearly important in adding context to what remains a good win for Calzaghe.

Overall, the only win on Calzaghe's record which can be credibley argued as being better than Froch's win over Taylor, is Calzaghe's "win" over Hopkins, for the simple fact that Hopkins is a better fighter than Taylor. But givem the close nature of the fight, the poor performance and unconvincing "victory", I think all things considerd Froch beating Taylor is a better win.

[BremnerBomber]

On paper Joe's win over Hopkins looks better........... but damn that fight was awful, and Hopkins made Joe look awful.

Call me old fashioned but I can not give someone a win by slapping thier opponent for 12 rounds on his gloves and arms without landing a meaningful punch. like the guy above said, Joe didn't win because he was the superior boxer in my opinion Joe was made a fool of by B-Hop.... Joe was made look like an ametuer at times

[Guy]

Carl looked pretty awful at times last night, if he hadn't got come on in the last couple and got the KO it would have been a Clinton Woods/Antonio Tarver type performance.

Joe's great performances have been just that....Great.

Joe's beating of Lacy was far classier than Carl's bangathon against Pascal and against Kessler he oozed class and intelligence, adapting and bamboozling Kessler.

Mikkel Kessler "I knew he was good, just not that good...!"

[dwilson]

Froch went to America and beat a top American fighter close to his prime.

Calzaghe never even tried to achieve this.

Froch has already achieved more than JC did.


JC made 20 defences of his Eurobum belt.

[Championship]

I'd agree with the original poster that the Taylor win is better then the Lacy or Kessler win. Taylor has had a better career then Kessler or Lacy.

With the Hopkins win its hard to compare. The subtracting points are that Hopkins was about 42 and it was only a SD and he had 2 losses to Taylor, but then again Hopkins was highly rated in the P4P rankings and went on to beat Pavlik (albeit at 170).

I'd have to rate the Hopkins win higher then the Taylor, especially considering that Hopkins showed that he wasn't shot by thrashing Pavlik afterwards. But I'd say that Froch's win over Taylor is superior to any of Calzaghes's other wins.

[P4PNo.1]

The Hopkins and Kessler wins are better except for them it's better than the rest of his wins.

[Farmboxer]

Calzahge had the better wins, but Froch has gotten everyone's eye now, he will be so much better after that fight.

[threethirteen]

Froch won't improve. He looked worse than he did against Pascal and that was pretty awful too.

["TKO"]

IMHO, though there's no doubt it was a superb win for Froch, Taylor is one of the most overrated fighters on this board. There's no doubt he's athletivcally gifted but he has basically been dining out on the Hopkins wins for four years now. Since then he has beaten up on two junior middleweights (unconvincingly) and the shell of Jeff Lacy whilst getting knocked cold and then beaten again by Pavlik. All the time never daring to leave the cosy confines of the United States. There's a limit to how far you can take the Hopkins fights. Junior Jones beat Barrera twice, Shane Mosley beat Forrest twice. Sometimes it's just a case of styles and the rest of Taylor's resume is not that impressive for mine. He was unproven at super middle and 3-2-1 in his last 6 bouts. Not trying to take the credit from Froch as I was cheering him on big time, but I think beating the undefeated Kessler, a proven super middle who was destroying everyone, is a better victory especially in the manner it was achieved. Hopkins is arguable as that was a shit fight and not a good performance by either man.

[Guy]

He looked worse than he did against Pascal .

Agreed.

How people are lauding this performance better than any Joe Calzaghe win is pathetic.

Carl Froch was getting outclassed and well beaten for almost all of the fight, he didn't adjust his game once.

He walked Taylor down and banged him out, the skill was not plain to see, the will to win, chin, heart and power was.

Joe Calzaghe would outpoint Froch any day of the week if he wasn't totally retired and out of the game.

Forget all your eurobum/slapping GF BS!!

Joe Calzaghe was a different class :deal

[dwilson]

Calzaghe never beat a top class opponent or anyone near the average Taylors ability.

["TKO"]

Calzaghe never beat a top class opponent or anyone near the average Taylors ability.

Did Calzaghe steal your missus or something? Or are you just attention seeking while school's out?

[dwilson]

Did Calzaghe steal your missus or something? Or are you just attention seeking while school's out?



Nah he just built a career on being a coward cunt. He would probably beat Froch. He could have pushed Hopkins and RJJ close when they were good but the fact he hid for so long fighting shit and eurobums and shouting about who he beat makes him a twat and another manufactured WBO ****** champ. He is just a super middle version of Khan but without the bottle.

[Ricjkards]

It's not a good won because Taylor basically beat the sh@t out of him for 9 rounds, made him look like a chump and knocked him down. Froch did nothing special, remember Pascal wasn't even hurt in his fight with Froch and went 12 rounds. Difference being he didn't gas out. Froch is being vastly ovverated. I doubt Taylor will ever win a meaningful fight again. He can't go 12 rounds so this win won't look so good in the future when Taylor achieves nothing more.

[icemax]

He can't go 12 rounds so this win won't look so good in the future when Taylor achieves nothing more.

Taylor has been the championship distance 10 times...a phantom stamina issue is mentioned once by one of the fight commentators and all of a sudden Taylor has less stamina than Fatty McDermot climbing stairs. Its bullshit and just an excuse to degrade Frochs achievement.

[Grant1]

Anybody know who Eubank was training for, and at what weight, when he took the Calzaghe fight?

[LiamE]

Anybody know who Eubank was training for, and at what weight, when he took the Calzaghe fight?

It was at 175 iirc. And it was Mark Prince.

[Grant1]

It was at 175 iirc. And it was Mark Prince.

Cheers mate.

So he had to cut an extra 7lb, that's what I was trying to ascertain.

[LiamE]

Cheers mate.

So he had to cut an extra 7lb, that's what I was trying to ascertain.

Yup. Had 2 weeks to do it. Although many people say he was weight drained Eubank himslef never did. In fact if you look here Eubank was thinking his best chances would come late which doesnt sound like the thinking of a guy that was weight drained...

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Of course at the time JC's stamina was an unknown. Had he known that Joe never has a problem with 12 fast rounds he might have gone with diferent tactics.

[Grant1]

Bunce get's his name in everywhere :lol:

[Olu G. Rotimi]

The quality of opponent Froch's is taking out is superior and the method of fighting is leaving no room for doubt. We all knew going in that Taylor had some significant advantages in term of speed, athletic talent etc. Froch prevailed and stopped the favoured and more naturally gifted Taylor away from home. That says it all really. The fight before he beat another undefeated talented and hungry fighter in Paschal. I have liked Froch for quite a while and even though he sometimes fights within himself there is an X-Factor there. Had it been him in with Calzaghe instead of Kessler then Calzaghe would not have an unbeaten record that is for sure.

When I look at Calzaghe's career I cannot think of a great fighter or what I would call the real deal e.g. beating such a fighter at their peak the way Marlon Starling destroyed another of my heroes Lloyd "Raggamuffin man" Honeyghan or the manner in which Honeyghan destroyed another favourite of mine the then unbeaten pound for pound Don "the Lone Star Cobra" Curry.

[threethirteen]

Olu,

That is possibly the silliest post you've made. Froch would beat Calzaghe? Calzaghe who has a chin of steel, fights hard for all 12 rounds, uses movement and timing to baffle opponents?

Froch who telegraphs every punch and ONLY caught Taylor because he got tired?

Be realistic here. Kessler would beat Froch, Calzaghe would beat Froch. Froch was woeful against Taylor and his victory was LUCKY. 14 seconds more and he'd have lost the belt.

[brown bomber]

The Eubank that fought calzage would have beaten the Taylor of Saturday night without question. Floyd Mayweather is not a top ten fighter on current rankings. I guess beating him wouldnt mean much now either.Liam, don't often disagree with you but thats simply not the case.

[threethirteen]

Eubank would have outlasted Taylor and more than likely caught him with a quick counter much earlier on. I could see Eubank stopping a limited fighter like Taylor.

In fact, where has this sudden respect for Taylor come from? Prior to the first Pavlik fight he was acclaimed as being "the worst MW champion of the last thirty years". Which he was. He looked crap against every opponent since Hopkins. Then Froch made him look like a boxing guru because Froch is so dreadful.

[brown bomber]

Eubank would have outlasted Taylor and more than likely caught him with a quick counter much earlier on. I could see Eubank stopping a limited fighter like Taylor.

:patsch Name one fighter that Eubank beat other then Benn with any form at top championship level?

[Grant1]

Olu,

That is possibly the silliest post you've made. Froch would beat Calzaghe? Calzaghe who has a chin of steel, fights hard for all 12 rounds, uses movement and timing to baffle opponents?

Froch who telegraphs every punch and ONLY caught Taylor because he got tired?

Be realistic here. Kessler would beat Froch, Calzaghe would beat Froch. Froch was woeful against Taylor and his victory was LUCKY. 14 seconds more and he'd have lost the belt.

Worse than Ajose needing to fight PBF for us all to realise how great he is? :lol:

[dwilson]

Eubank is another fighter the Brits got duped into believing was great but without achieving anything. Amazing how tarded the Brit public is most of the time.

[threethirteen]

:patsch Name one fighter that Eubank beat other then Benn with any form at top championship level?

Do the same for Taylor. He's lost to every body who was conceivably elite or top level, whatever the scorecards say:

Hopkins - lost twice
Wright - lost
Pavlik - KO then by decision

And now the limited, sloppy Froch. yes, great argument you provided there, jeff.

[BremnerBomber]

Beating that Graciano Rocchigiani was a very solid win

[widdy]

Eubank would have outlasted Taylor and more than likely caught him with a quick counter much earlier on. I could see Eubank stopping a limited fighter like Taylor.

In fact, where has this sudden respect for Taylor come from? Prior to the first Pavlik fight he was acclaimed as being "the worst MW champion of the last thirty years". Which he was. He looked crap against every opponent since Hopkins. Then Froch made him look like a boxing guru because Froch is so dreadful.

what a load of bollocks,the eubank who was beaten of JC would not of beaten taylor,steve collins finished eubanks on there 1st fight,nealy 3 years b4,FFS
can't beleive the shit some people are saying about froch,25 fights,20ko's,wbc world champ,just been and beaten a v good yank in his own backyard,christ if you all know and watch boxing,that fight was a lot closer than 2 of the score cards would have you beleive.

do u remember when mosley was getting twated off that chainsmoking morayago and he ko'ed him in the last sec's,most people hailed that as great,but not that little old english fellow froch,the bum:patsch

[brown bomber]

Do the same for Taylor. He's lost to every body who was conceivably elite or top level, whatever the scorecards say:

Hopkins - lost twice
Wright - lost
Pavlik - KO then by decision

And now the limited, sloppy Froch. yes, great argument you provided there, jeff.What about Cory Spinks? Your not thinking these arguments through pal at all. He didn't lose to Hopkins. He didn't lose to Wright... If we're using this theory then many were of the opinion Calzaghe lost to Reid and Hopkins... You should have said Graciano Rochiggiani....

[widdy]

bill joppy springs to mind as well

[brown bomber]

Beating that Graciano Rocchigiani was a very solid winSolid yes but on close observation Rocchi record doesn't stand up to well. KOing Michelzewski after the bell didn't count, Nunn was shot to pieces and was Sugar Boy Malinga anythingmore then a plodder with a good jab? Draw with Selliers not bad form and a win over James Cook never hurts but he was very much Top end Euro level IMO. But fair play- good, thought provoking argument.

[brown bomber]

bill joppy springs to mind as wellYeah that was a good performance but I think Joppy was perhaps too far gone to be counted. Just my opinion.

[dwilson]

Nice to see Jeff arguing with the Calzaghe fan boys again. Once a week at least and he always wins.

[Strike]

No.

Kessler would BATTER Froch. Every round until possibly stopping him late.
Calzaghe would have beaten Taylor by about 9 rounds to 3.

[brown bomber]

Nice to see Jeff arguing with the Calzaghe fan boys again. Once a week at least and he always wins.:dealCheers mate..... This isn't really a tough one.... TFFP's more of a challenge.

[brown bomber]

You do realise that it says ANY victory.... a lot of people have said NO..... Take a look at Calzaghes CV if you will. 46 fights, 3 opponents with world class form. Froch 25 fights, 1 world class opponent in form...... He's got 21 fights to go......

[Grant1]

You do realise that it says ANY victory.... a lot of people have said NO..... Take a look at Calzaghes CV if you will. 46 fights, 3 opponents with world class form. Froch 25 fights, 1 world class opponent in form...... He's got 21 fights to go......

with that ratio Jeff it'll take him 75 fights to get to 3 :lol:

[brown bomber]

with that ratio Jeff it'll take him 75 fights to get to 3 :lol:lol... very true.... But I mean its not bad for a first defence.... His second top tier fight.

[JonOli]

If he develops his game a bit, irons out the mistakes from the Froch fight, I think Pascal could possibly turn out to be half decent.

[Olu G. Rotimi]

Olu,

That is possibly the silliest post you've made. Froch would beat Calzaghe? Calzaghe who has a chin of steel, fights hard for all 12 rounds, uses movement and timing to baffle opponents?

Froch who telegraphs every punch and ONLY caught Taylor because he got tired?

Be realistic here. Kessler would beat Froch, Calzaghe would beat Froch. Froch was woeful against Taylor and his victory was LUCKY. 14 seconds more and he'd have lost the belt.

There seems to be a lot of trash being spoken about Calzaghe's true merits. I had identified Froch as someone who can defeat him a long time ago. People always go for the obvious. Froch has things that will derail Calzaghe. The only thing one is never quite sure of is the intangibles until truly tested which they have in Froch's last 2 fights. I have seen enough to know he can do Calzaghe definitively but Calzaghe will remain in his armchair and not risk it getting his Dad to slag off Froch.

[Olu G. Rotimi]

Worse than Ajose needing to fight PBF for us all to realise how great he is? :lol:

I would not expect anything else from you. You know who you are.

[El Cepillo]

Some of you Calzaghe fans live in fantasy land.

[Olu G. Rotimi]

Some of you Calzaghe fans live in fantasy land.

That is an understatement Sir. It really is.

[Guy]

There seems to be a lot of trash being spoken about Calzaghe's true merits. I had identified Froch as someone who can defeat him a long time ago. People always go for the obvious. Froch has things that will derail Calzaghe. The only thing one is never quite sure of is the intangibles until truly tested which they have in Froch's last 2 fights. I have seen enough to know he can do Calzaghe definitively but Calzaghe will remain in his armchair and not risk it getting his Dad to slag off Froch.


Wrong [Only registered and activated users can see links]

Calzaghe UD's Froch seven days a week:good

[dwh103]

Guess this thread just shows what a lot of people think of Calzaghe's career. Talent and attribute wise he is light years ahead of the Cobra. Joe wins 9.9/10 for me head to head, the fact that Froch's resume could conceivably surpass him shows how badly he's managed his career.

That being said I do think the manner of Joe's wins are being ignored. Yes Lacy did nothing since, and Jones Jr was shot, but he absolutely dominated them. That's a big difference to looking poor for 10 rounds and getting 'lucky'. A win is a win though, and Froch beat a big name in his own backyard, though unless he improves he'll fade away into obscurity and it'll remain just that - a lucky win.

[Olu G. Rotimi]

Wrong [Only registered and activated users can see links]

Calzaghe UD's Froch seven days a week:good

Calzaghe sounds scared.

[Beeston Brawler]

Calzaghe will probably come back and fight Gary Lockett.

[Guy]

Calzaghe will probably come back and fight Gary Lockett.


Only In your dreams Beeston :scaredas:

[LiamE]

Liam, don't often disagree with you but thats simply not the case.

Have a look at the last round of Calzaghe/Eubank. Chris was still strong and caught Joe with a great shot near the end. If that was a tired JT in there instead of JC I honestly reckon it would have been over. I also think there would be a near zero chance that JT would stop chris.... lets face it no one ever did till his last fight and that was only on a swollen eye. And I just cant see Chris being outboxed by JT in the way Carl was. Boxing skillwise I think everyone would agree that Eubank was a far slicker oprerated than Carl is.

[Beeston Brawler]

Only In your dreams Beeston :scaredas:

Lockett needs to take his beating like a man :deal

[Guy]

Lockett needs to take his beating like a man :deal


Would Pavlik/Lockett II with no referee satisfy you :!:

[Beeston Brawler]

No.

I want someone that has a high output but not a lot of power.

Calzaghe fits the bill - can make him pay for quitting like a gutless fag.

[Guy]

Didn't Gary Lockett say he hated boxing when he retired and he had a BBC column writing about it:patsch

but subjecting him to a Calzaghe windmill....:verysad

[debaser]

I think I can understand why Froch said he didn't like fighting. Can't be much fun to eat that many shots every time you step into the ring. You'd have to worry about his healthh as well considering the punishment he has taken in his last two fights.

[BoxingFanNo1]

I don't know if Froch's win, is bigger than Kessler or Hopkins but as an achievement it outweighs anything Joe did.
I mean come on it's been said dozens of times:
First defence.
Fights a big name in his own backyard.
Knocked down for the first time ever and had the courage to shake it off.
And only got $700k for his trouble.

Calzaghe never had so much against him in any fight imo.

[TFFP]

Calzaghe had everything against him when he fought Hopkins.

He was in America.

Adelaide Byrd was judge.

If he wins he gets a Ring belt.

If he loses he loses to a 41 year old man.

If he wins he wins against a 41 year old man

If he wins he's guaranteed to look bad.

If he wins everybody will claim he didn't win.

[Grant1]

I would not expect anything else from you. You know who you are.

Yes of course I do, but the funny thing is you haven't got a fucking clue.

And what makes it funnier again is that you think you do :lol:

["TKO"]

Guess this thread just shows what a lot of people think of Calzaghe's career. Talent and attribute wise he is light years ahead of the Cobra. Joe wins 9.9/10 for me head to head, the fact that Froch's resume could conceivably surpass him shows how badly he's managed his career.

That being said I do think the manner of Joe's wins are being ignored. Yes Lacy did nothing since, and Jones Jr was shot, but he absolutely dominated them. That's a big difference to looking poor for 10 rounds and getting 'lucky'. A win is a win though, and Froch beat a big name in his own backyard, though unless he improves he'll fade away into obscurity and it'll remain just that - a lucky win.

I don't think there's that much danger of Froch's resume ever surpassing Calzaghe's. At present, they have the following in terms of world class fighters (i.e. probably top ten in the world at the time they fought them):

Calzaghe:

Eubank
Reid
Sheika
Woodhall
Brewer
Mitchell
Lacy
Bika
Kessler
Hopkins
Jones

Froch:

Pascal
Taylor

I'm being generous to both guys and including debatable fighters like Pascal and Sheika. I can't honestly see where Froch, with his style and at his age, is going to beat ten more top ten ranked opponents. And I certainly don't see him beating Kessler. He has a shot against Bute, Andrade is 50/50 and I'd favour him in a Taylor rematch. Most others he probably beats atm, not sure about other unproven prospects like Ward and Dirrell.

[icemax]

Lockett needs to take his beating like a man :deal

Zero chance of that happening...he had the chance to take it like a man when he was in against Pavlik and bottled it like a girly :D

[TFFP]

If Ward and Dirrell are the real deal as Americans claim, they should beat Froch. Don't think he'll fair well with athletic fighters, not unless they gas.

[cityofgod]

who's names does Kessler have on his record?

Kessler would never beat Hopkins. Never ever.

["TKO"]

If Ward and Dirrell are the real deal as Americans claim, they should beat Froch. Don't think he'll fair well with athletic fighters, not unless they gas.

This is not always the best indicator of how good a fighter is :yep

["TKO"]

who's names does Kessler have on his record?

Kessler would never beat Hopkins. Never ever.

Siaca, Mundine, Green, Lucas, Andrade, Beyer. Not a bad little resume, though some people who don't think a fighter counts unless he's p4p elite won't recognise any of them. Still there is no super middleweight out there with a better resume and at light heavy it's only the older guys in their late 30s and 40s who've been around decades.

[threethirteen]

Froch beat Pascal cause he gassed
Froch beat Taylor because he gassed

What happens when he meets an opponent with that level of ability who doesn't gas?

He loses.

[Guy]

Calzaghe had everything against him when he fought Hopkins.

He was in America.

Adelaide Byrd was judge.

If he wins he gets a Ring belt.

If he loses he loses to a 41 year old man.

If he wins he wins against a 41 year old man

If he wins he's guaranteed to look bad.

If he wins everybody will claim he didn't win.

They should have put that in the pre-fight programme for posterity :deal

[JonOli]

Froch beat Pascal cause he gassed
Froch beat Taylor because he gassed

What happens when he meets an opponent with that level of ability who doesn't gas?

He loses.


Maybe repeatedly clubbing them round the head partly contributed to them gassing.

[BadJuju83]

It beats most of them.

It doesnt beat Hopkins and Kessler.

[widdy]

Maybe repeatedly clubbing them round the head partly contributed to them gassing.

don't be daft mate,acording to some morons on here,froch can't punch,and very rarely hit taylor,
taylor has BIG stamina problams,even though he has been the 12 round champion distance,a dozen times,the mans a pussy:patsch

[Farmboxer]

Froch surprised a lot for so-called experts.