Frazier-Marciano

[Quick Cash]

Once and for all, who was better head-to-head?

Is it fair to say that Frazier improved on Marciano's pressure fighting style? If so, is Smokin' Joe at the pinnacle of pressure fighters?

Who could Rocky hypothetically beat that Frazier couldn't and vice versa?

No 'accomplishments' should come to consideration. We're talking strictly about styles and traits here.

[Little_Mac]

You should be asking "Which will win, a good left hook vs a good straight right?" because IMO that's all either of them had.

I like Frazier better personally, but I gotta say I think the Rock takes it.

[Dempsey1238]

Marciano also had a good left hook himself, It was the left that lay out Matthews and Charles. Marciano could bang with both punchs.

[garymcfall]

This would be brutal, neither figher would give in. I see Frazier being stopped late rounds in a match that leave both heavily injured.

[apollack]

Total pick'em. Total war. I'd pay big bucks to see it, especially if it was a fight to the finish, but a 15 rounder would suffice as well.

[Muchmoore]

Both are great fighters but Marciano is the more sturdier fighter and has the better stamina and that makes the difference. Frazier certainly had good stamina but Marciano was a freak, this is an all out war that ends with Marciano winning maybe by late KO or UD 9-6.

[apollack]

The Frazier that fought Ali in the first fight had monster stamina too. This is not that easy to pick. Remember, Marciano was no more than 190 and 5'10", so I don't think he would be able to do to Joe what Foreman did. This is a brutal inside war of attrition by two guys with great stamina, excellent pop, underrated head movement and counter skills, and could really work on the inside at a good clip.

[Sweet Science]

It could be argued that maybe Marciano had a slightly better chin which could be a factor.

[KobeIsGod]

great fight. so even in almost every area. imo, marciano's two-fisted skill and consistent late stamina narrowly offsets frazier's advantage in size and left-hook power. very late tko.

[Hank]

Marciano. Hit better and harder with both hands. Frazier through left hook so much he got known for it, and it was good one, but in match up I have to go with Marciano.

[JIm Broughton]

What a dream fight!! Two men who don't know the meaning of the word "retreat" or "surrender" and are pretty equally matched. Put a gun to my head though and I'll take a prime Frazier by a slim margin. I think his reach and speed would be the deciding factors. Look at the pace of the first Ali/Frazier fight and compare that with say Marciano/Walcott 1. Both grueling give and take battles but the speed of Ali/Frazier is just so much faster. Joe had to chase down a still very fast Ali for 15 rounds while taking hundreds of slashing combinations all night long. He would'nt have the same problem with Rocky who stood right in front of you and traded and I think this could actually favor Joe due to his greater reach and hand speed. Rocky just did'nt put his punches together fast enough to catch Joe with say 3 or 4 hard fast punches in a row to end it. At least not against the Joe of '71. And Rocky never fought a fighter who put punches together like Joe did that packed the wallop of Joe's. Different era's-different styles. If Joe does'nt get caught early by 1 or 2 haymakers and gets into his rythym then I see him stopping Rocky on cuts in a brutal slugfest late in the fight that has a lasting effect on both men.

[fists of fury]

As Apollack said, this would be total war.

Frazier is slightly bigger, but Marciano's got arguably better durability and of course uses boh fists with equal abandon, whereas Joe used primarily that Philly left hook of his.
There is always the possibility of cuts stopping things and I'm pretty sure all that slugging would lead to Rocky being quite severely cut around both eyes.

It's very tough to pick a winner, because in most departments they're very evenly matched. Marciano's strong points are Frazier's too, and their weaknesses are also similar. The only difference really is that Joe didn't cut much.
It's a 50/50 really. Just to not be accused of sitting on the fence, I'd pick Marciano because he seemed to get stronger as a fight wore on. The late rounds were where he seemed to shine.

Marciano SD 15.

[Maxmomer]

50/50, pick em fight, for no particular reason I'm going to pick Marciano. Besides the point, but Dempsey would ruin the both of them.

[Holmes' Jab]

Frazier, by late TKO (on cuts). At the time of stoppage the fight would be fairly evenly poised on the scorecards.

"War of attrition" would be about right. :good

[Mendoza]

Total pick'em. Total war. I'd pay big bucks to see it, especially if it was a fight to the finish, but a 15 rounder would suffice as well.
Amen. This fight has no losers. Boxing itself would win.

Who wins in this battle of highly entertaining swarmers? The man with the better speed and footwork, or the man with the better power, and more durability? I go with the later based on how I see the fight going down.

Marciano is my pick.

[Quick Cash]

Yeah, all the things said above are valid and welcome, but the discussion so far is only one specific aspect of the context I posted. Although I completely understand why many gravitate around the topic of a fantasy fight between these two combatants, this isn't exclusively a Marciano vs Frazier thread, guys.

[Quick Cash]

You may continue discussing Marciano vs Frazier, by the way. Just keep the other questions i posed in mind

[Sizzle]

Marciano for me.

A better two-handed puncher - Threw more consistently full forced punches than any heavyweight I can think of.

He has the better chin, and is the more patient and better conditioned of the two - With Frazier walking into him and eating his monstrous power, a la Foreman, I can only see Frazier getting stopped in the midrounds on this one.

[Minotauro]

I would favour Frazier think he would be coming forward more and putting Marciano on the back foot more often while landing the more accurate punches. Frazier via late TKO(cut) while being slightly ahead on the score cards.

[janitor]

I slightly favour Marciano for the following reasons.

1. Two hands
2. Two eyes
3. Slightly betther chin
4. Fraziers main vulnerability was to a right hand which was Marciano's forte

Having said this I am not risking any money.

[Mendoza]

I slightly favour Marciano for the following reasons.

1. Two hands
2. Two eyes
3. Slightly betther chin
4. Fraziers main vulnerability was to a right hand which was Marciano's forte

Having said this I am not risking any money.

Did Frazier have a problem with his eye? I agree with what you said. The interesting part about this match is, Frazier would far and away be the best puncher Marciano faced.

[janitor]

Did Frazier have a problem with his eye?

My understanding is that he was almost blind in one eye, certainly by the end of his career.

Makes you wonder what he could have done with two good eyes.

[janitor]

Frazier. He'd beat the snot out of Marciano.

Nobody doubts that but would he actualy win?

[Dempsey1238]

Win or lose, both will be damage goods after the fight.

[janitor]

Win or lose, both will be damage goods after the fight.

You are probably right.

[KTFO]

is Smokin' Joe at the pinnacle of pressure fighters?


Tyson.


Who could Rocky hypothetically beat that Frazier couldn't


None.



and vice versa?


:wtf

[Bummy Davis]

I love both guys in there prime, both were fierce and determaned wariors, I think the difference is Marciano had both hands and was hard to hurt, I seen him stunned but never hurt

[Jack]

I think Frazier would win a tough fight, clearly. I certainly wouldn't bet on Marciano being stopped, though I think a Frazier UD is the best choice here.

You know, it's strange when it comes to frazier threads, because he is almost always underrated. It's like Carlos Monzon. You can pick faults in both guys, and whilst they are correct, both were almost unbeatable despite those faults. Are things like "Monzon was unspectacular" and "Frazier was one handed" true reasons to pick other opponents to beat them, when both men proved time and time again that despite those weaknesses they were both elite fighters? I don't think so.

I wonder how much these faults would really affect the outcome.

What is more important is speed and defence. Frazier avoided and blocked shots better, even against lightning quick fighters like Ali. Marciano was slow, had a good defence but threw a ton of shots. Frazier was fast threw a ton of shots had a great defence, so the logic would suggest Frazier would outland Marciano.

I think that's right. Out of ten times, I'd go with Marciano maybe three times. The rest would be either TKO (cuts) or point wins for Frazier.

Head to head, I think Frazier does better against more elite opponents too.

[Luigi1985]

I think Frazier would win a tough fight, clearly. I certainly wouldn't bet on Marciano being stopped, though I think a Frazier UD is the best choice here.

You know, it's strange when it comes to frazier threads, because he is almost always underrated. It's like Carlos Monzon. You can pick faults in both guys, and whilst they are correct, both were almost unbeatable despite those faults. Are things like "Monzon was unspectacular" and "Frazier was one handed" true reasons to pick other opponents to beat them, when both men proved time and time again that despite those weaknesses they were both elite fighters? I don't think so.

I wonder how much these faults would really affect the outcome.

What is more important is speed and defence. Frazier avoided and blocked shots better, even against lightning quick fighters like Ali. Marciano was slow, had a good defence but threw a ton of shots. Frazier was fast threw a ton of shots had a great defence, so the logic would suggest Frazier would outland Marciano.

I think that's right. Out of ten times, I'd go with Marciano maybe three times. The rest would be either TKO (cuts) or point wins for Frazier.

Head to head, I think Frazier does better against more elite opponents too.



When Frazier had such a "great" defense, why did the slower than Marciano and wild-swinging Foreman TKO him twice that early and without any problems? Don´t answer now with things like "Foreman would always be the nightmare for Smokin Joe"...

[Jack]

When Frazier had such a "great" defense, why did the slower than Marciano and wild-swinging Foreman TKO him twice that early and without any problems? Don´t answer now with things like "Foreman would always be the nightmare for Smokin Joe"...
Frazier was shot by the first Foreman fight. Out of shape, badly damamged by the first Ali fight and other tough bouts throughout his career.

Whenever we get a "prime for prime" matchup involving Frazier, people mention the Foreman fight, which goes directly against the idea of "prime".

The Frazier of the late '60's was a much better defensive fighter than the one who fought Foreman. Quicker reflexes, better chin, better blocking, and better movement.

[Luigi1985]

Frazier was shot by the first Foreman fight. Out of shape, badly damamged by the first Ali fight and other tough bouts throughout his career.

Whenever we get a "prime for prime" matchup involving Frazier, people mention the Foreman fight, which goes directly against the idea of "prime".

The Frazier of the late '60's was a much better defensive fighter than the one who fought Foreman. Quicker reflexes, better chin, better blocking, and better movement.


Frazier wasn´t at his best against Foreman, but he was far away from shot. Lame excuse...

[Luigi1985]

Marciano would have gotten brutalized in similar fashion from Foreman.


I wouldn´t be that death-sure when I think at the Lyle- fight...

[Jack]

Frazier wasn´t at his best against Foreman, but he was far away from shot. Lame excuse...
Bollocks.

Look at Frazier's medical condition after the Ali fight. Not nessecarily just his injuries in that fight, but his back, eyes and whatever else. He was a wreck.

Watch Frazier struggle with Ron Stander and tell me he wasn't shot.

I actually think he imroved after the Foreman and Stander fights, but on those very nights, I would genuinly consider him done.

I suppose "shot" is subjective though.

[Quick Cash]

I wouldn´t be that death-sure when I think at the Lyle- fight...

Marciano fought nothing like Lyle, and they were built dissimilarly also. Big George from the Foreman-Frazier fights would mow over Marciano. George from the Lyle fight, fresh from a long time-off, probably would have been troubled by Marciano, I agree.

[Luigi1985]

Marciano fought nothing like Lyle, and they were built dissimilarly also. Big George from the Foreman-Frazier fights would mow over Marciano. George from the Lyle fight, fresh from a long time-off, probably would have been troubled by Marciano, I agree.



Walcott had a harder one-punch for example, and he couldn´t KO Marciano, although he nailed him with multiple good and hard shots...

[Quick Cash]

Walcott had a harder one-punch for example, and he couldn´t KO Marciano, although he nailed him with multiple good and hard shots...

I totally disagree. Walcott was a hard and wiley puncher, but the emphasis should be on wiley. No one, excepting maybe Earnie Shavers, approaches the power of George Foreman. It was his one thing. No one should take that away from him.

I say, if Joe Walcott could floor Rocky Marciano with one shot, Foreman could probably knock him out for the count with a series of uppercuts.

[Luigi1985]

I totally disagree. Walcott was a hard and wiley puncher, but the emphasis should be on wiley. No one, excepting maybe Earnie Shavers, approaches the power of George Foreman. It was his one thing. No one should take that away from him.

I say, if Joe Walcott could floor Rocky Marciano with one shot, Foreman could probably knock him out for the count with a series of uppercuts.


You wrote that Marciano never fought a fighter like Lyle, and I answered with Walcott as an example, now you´re coming with Foreman...

[Nick Balsamo]

Marciano is stronger, more powerful, had a better chin and relied on both hands to get some KO's.

Frazier punches with more volume, was faster, had the better left hook and was a bit harder to hit.

I guess Marciano takes it by a hair.

[Dempsey1238]

Or so we assume, and base on a past it Fraizer?? Was Louis tailor made for Marciano?? Or Dempsey Tunney?? Or even Tyson Lewis?

[Quick Cash]

You wrote that Marciano never fought a fighter like Lyle, and I answered with Walcott as an example, now you´re coming with Foreman...

You misunderstood. I said Marciano fought nothing like Lyle. You were the one who brought Lyle into the discussion in the first place. I fail to see how he's a relevant example as George was clearly under-prepared for that fight. I wasn't the one who mentioned George either, by the way.

Or so we assume, and base on a past it Fraizer?? Was Louis tailor made for Marciano?? Or Dempsey Tunney?? Or even Tyson Lewis?

It's true Frazier was past it when he fought Foreman, but he didn't do himself any favors by fighting low like he did, and you know Frazier always fought low. His whole style was built on fighting low.

When you're past peak, typically reaction slows gradually, but Frazier, even with the full use of his cognitive abilities, would fight low prime or no. It's a styles thing: Foreman beats Frazier.

[Ted Stickles]

Rocky would win by middle to late round stoppage because joe was always vulnerable to a right hand and Rockys was one of the best

[Hank]

Did Frazier have a problem with his eye? I agree with what you said. The interesting part about this match is, Frazier would far and away be the best puncher Marciano faced.

I got to disagree on punchers he faced. Layne was not great, but good, and hit hard. Charles was not big, but hit hard and sharper, and Archie Moore could bang. Vingo was supposedly one of hardest hitters coming up when he faced Marciano, although due to bad match ups his record was not as ko heavy.

[Hank]

Walcott was able to take clean pot shots at a blinded Marciano in middle rounds, and marciano never wavered, buckled, or stopped going at Walcott. Oe punch in 11th would have ko'd almost anyone, Marciano took it and did not blink.

Frazier was tough as Marciano, and it would be war, but Marciano was just better head to head or overall. No knock on Frazier. It's tough matching up champs, cause it sometimes sounds like one guy is being put down.

[Blacc Jesus]

Frazier by TKO in the 7th.

[KTFO]

Frazier by TKO in the 7th.



Wow, that's harsh. Frazier would be offended.

Frazier decapitates this slow bleeder within 3.

[JohnThomas1]

I've always gone for Frazier in this one but concede Marciano could quite possibly knock him out. What a fierce encounter.

[Bummy Davis]

Frazier himself conceded that Marciano was the greatest under Joe Louis and that he himself was 3rd, He stated that Marciano punched the arms and shoulders and he felt would Ko Ali also. A beautiful matchup and a fight fans fantasy, Marciano KO's Frazier by the 10th in a blazing battle

[Street Lethal]

Total pick'em. Total war.
That sums it up for me.

[dav8d777]

[quote=Holmes' Jab]Frazier, by late TKO (on cuts). At the time of stoppage the fight would be fairly evenly poised on the scorecards.


Both men might go down from accidental head-butts. :yep

I think the ref should stop the fight before it starts. It would be a crime scene.