Prime Sonny Liston vs Muhammad Ali (1967)

[ChrisPontius]

We're not talking about an undertrained Liston who thought he was immortal, but a younger version of him who will live in the gym to beat Ali. Ali of course, trains his ass off too.

Anyone here seeing Liston taking it? And how?

I think Ali has Listons number in the sense that he has too much speed of hand and foot and the chin/recuperative ability to save him from the moment that Liston does land.

15 rounds.




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[Luigi1985]

Prime Liston was in the ring against Ali yet...


I´ve seen almost all of the available Sonny- fights, and he didn´t look better there, he was only in the ring against mediocre fighters, that´s why he looked so "special", Liston would lose 10 times out of 10...

[Sweet Science]

We're not talking about an undertrained Liston who thought he was immortal, but a younger version of him who will live in the gym to beat Ali. Ali of course, trains his ass off too.

Anyone here seeing Liston taking it? And how?

I think Ali has Listons number in the sense that he has too much speed of hand and foot and the chin/recuperative ability to save him from the moment that Liston does land.

15 rounds.




[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Under those conditions I think the best possible Liston would do better against Ali. Who knows he could even last 15 rounds. However, Ali's speed would always be a big problem for Liston. At best I see Liston losing a UD. I'm not one of those who think either of the Liston-Ali fights were fixed.

[Luigi1985]

Liston jabs the fuck out of ali and wins a SD. Ali is so vastly overrated it makes me want to club the shit out of someone.


I agree that Ali is overrated, but Liston is more overrated. People like Clay II have him at their 2nd best HW ever in their ATG´s list... :lol:

[Sweet Science]

Liston jabs the fuck out of ali and wins a SD. Ali is so vastly overrated it makes me want to club the shit out of someone.

:nut Hmm, your funny and yet tragic at the same time, thats quite an achievement.

[Manassa]

Liston KO12. A different animal to what Ali faced in '64, the '59 Liston would have stalked, applied subtle pressure and paced himself en route to a left hook knockout.

[Muchmoore]

Ali is far too fast. Liston even though he was slower than he was at his peak wasn't shot and he couldn't even come CLOSE to landing on Ali. Peak Liston makes a better fight out of it but still loses by decision.

[Minotauro]

Ali would win a fairly competitive UD his speed will always be a problem as he would have Liston chasing throughout.

[TBooze]

Prime Liston had trouble with cutie Manchen, and Eddie was no Ali. Liston would go 15 rounds if he was in his pomp, but he would lose comfortably.

Ali WU15 (10-5)

[McGrain]

There are no two heavyweights in my top ten with more distance between them in terms of head to head. I think Liston has close to no chance.

I just don't think he can make Ali fight fast enough.

Wide UD.

[janitor]

I am going to go against the grain and pick Liston here. Remember that Ali was taking a big step up in competition and had not yet reached his peak. Liston should be able to capitalize on this.

[TBooze]

I am going to go against the grain and pick Liston here. Remember that Ali was taking a big step up in competition and had not yet reached his peak. Liston should be able to capitalize on this.

But the question was 67 Ali against 60ish Liston.... Ali had reached his peak;)

[janitor]

But the question was 67 Ali against 60ish Liston.... Ali had reached his peak;)

Then I will go with Ali.

[Manassa]

Edit!

[Muchmoore]

A peak Liston was only a shade behind Ali in terms of speed and agility.

He was miles behind.

[Manassa]

A peak Liston was only a shade behind a '79 Ali in terms of speed and agility.

Yes.

[Manassa]

He was miles behind.

Nope.

[Sweet Science]

Originally Posted by Manassa
A peak Liston was only a shade behind Ali in terms of speed and agility.

I don't think theres anyone in the world who would agree with that statement.

[Manassa]

I don't think theres anyone in the world who would agree with that statement.

Oh, I think anyone who reads it carefully will agree.

[Sweet Science]

Oh, I think anyone who reads it carefully will agree.

I read it very carefully, as I couldn't believe what you wrote the 1st time. Even noticed the word 'shade'. Still doesn't make much sense. I would put it in the same ballpark as "Audley Harrison is only a shade behind Oliver McCall in terms of his chin".

[Manassa]

I read it very carefully, as I couldn't believe what you wrote the 1st time. Even noticed the word 'shade'. Still doesn't make much sense. I would put it in the same ballpark as "Audley Harrison is only a shade behind Oliver McCall in terms of his chin".

So you think a prime Liston was much slower than the Ali who beat Leon Spinks?

[Sweet Science]

So you think a prime Liston was much slower than the Ali who beat Leon Spinks?

The thread matches a prime Liston vs a prime Ali. The Ali who beat Leon Spinks in 1978 wasn't prime. Was he? He was over 10 years past his best.

[Manassa]

The thread matches a prime Liston vs a prime Ali. The Ali who beat Leon Spinks in 1978 wasn't prime. Was he? He was over 10 years past his best.

Ali was in his prime when he faced Spinks. Though less hasty and agile, he was much more experienced than the '60s version.

[Sweet Science]

Ali was in his prime when he faced Spinks. Though less hasty and agile, he was much more experienced than the '60s version.

You're doing quite well at this. Another laughable statement that no one else in the world, apart from you would agree with.

Ali in 1978 was nowhere near his prime. Most people would agree Ali was in his prime 1966-67. There is a very small minority of people who say Ali post exile (no later than 1975) was better due to greater experience and developing better power. I don't know anyone who says Ali from 1978 was prime. You are unique in this respect, please don't take that as a compliment.

[Manassa]

Robinson was much more experienced vs Joey Archer than he was against LaMotta, does that mean he was still in his prime then? And again, the thread is about a '67 Ali.

No, Robinson was different. He had far more fights.

P.S. - Ali didn't even fight in '67.

[Manassa]

You're doing quite well at this. Another laughable statement that no one else in the world, apart from you would agree with.

Ali in 1978 was nowhere near his prime. Most people would agree Ali was in his prime 1966-67. There is a very small minority of people who say Ali post exile (no later than 1975) was better due to greater experience and developing better power. I don't know anyone who says Ali from 1978 was prime. You are unique in this respect, please don't take that as a compliment.

You have a painting of Ali in your avatar, so I think we can safely say your opinion doesn't count.

[Sweet Science]

You have a painting of Ali in your avatar, so I think we can safely say your opinion doesn't count.

Oh ofcourse, I have a painting of Ali in my avatar. This must mean I have absolutley no idea when Ali was in his prime. Great reasoning.:good

[Manassa]

Oh ofcourse, I have a painting of Ali in my avator. This must mean I have absolutley no idea when Ali was in his prime. Great reasoning.:good

You can't spell either so I think that confirms my reasoning.

[Sweet Science]

You can't spell either so I think that confirms my reasoning.

Yes, my spelling leaves a lot to be desired but so does your poor argument.

[Manassa]

Yes, my spelling leaves a lot to be desired but so does your poor argument.

I'm right and you know it. Ali was just a little boy in the '60s, whereas by '77 he was mature and experienced.

[Sweet Science]

I'm right and you know it. Ali was just a little boy in the '60s, whereas by '77 he was mature and experienced.

The "little boy" from the 60's is universally recognised as the best version of Ali and arguably the best heavyweight in history. 70's Ali was great too, but '77-'78 was substantially slower, less mobile and had become too reliant on taking punishment on the ropes. If I thought you were right I'd agree with you, unfortunatley you're just plain wrong.

I hope my pathetic spelling is up to your fine standards.

[Manassa]

The "little boy" from the 60's is universally recognised as the best version of Ali and arguably the best heavyweight in history. 70's Ali was great too, but '77-'78 was substantially slower, less mobile and had become too reliant on taking punishment on the ropes. If I thought you were right I'd agree with you, unfortunatley you're just plain wrong.

I hope my pathetic spelling is up to your fine standards.

Ropes? I was talking about sexual maturity. Unless there is something kinky about Ali I did not know about.

[Sweet Science]

Ropes? I was talking about sexual maturity. Unless there is something kinky about Ali I did not know about.

Oh sorry, I was talking about boxing. You're probably in the wrong place if you want to discuss a boxers sex life.

[Manassa]

Oh sorry, I was talking about boxing. You're probably in the wrong place if you want to discuss a boxers sex life.

... But it goes for boxing too. Ali was better in the late '70s - he was just more confident. In the '60s, he was a quivering wreck and couldn't take a punch.

[Sweet Science]

... But it goes for boxing too. Ali was better in the late '70s - he was just more confident. In the '60s, he was a quivering wreck and couldn't take a punch.

Hmm, I'm starting to get bored now. I better leave you to your own devices.
Have fun in your world & don't forget to take your medication. :hi:

[Holmes' Jab]

Liston's peak lasted from around '58-61-ish I reckon. Despite destroying Patterson (twice) the very next year he was beginning to slip slightly by this stage. By the time Liston faced Ali his training had be in slacker mode for the best part of a year, his boozing tendancy had taken hold and he turned up in the ring more ponderous and rusty than previously.

Still, that said you've still got to favour Ali here- most likely by clear yet pretty competitive UD; he'd find a way to edge out the tight rounds. Something like 9-6 sounds fair.

[groove]

Ali was in his prime when he faced Spinks. Though less hasty and agile, he was much more experienced than the '60s version.

1. Ali fought Terrell and Folley in 1967.
2. The Ali of 1978 wouldn't win one round against 1967 Ali. The comparison is one fucking bad joke. Ali 67 would knock Spinks out with no problems.

[fists of fury]

Ali was in his prime when he faced Spinks. Though less hasty and agile, he was much more experienced than the '60s version.

:lol:

Liston just could never beat Ali.

[Maxmomer]

Ali was in his prime when he faced Spinks. Though less hasty and agile, he was much more experienced than the '60s version.

Are you just fucking with people?

[Duodenum]

In 1964, Lisron was already past his prime, while Ali was still three years away from his peak. One sided UD over Liston. Ali would effortlessly slip and counter Sonny's jab throughout the match. Liston would find it very hard to land solidly on Muhammad. Whenever he managed to succeed, the result would prove to not have been worth the effort. In frustration Sonny may well have quit on his stool between rounds.

[Manassa]

1. Ali fought Terrell and Folley in 1967.

Erm, no he didn't.

[groove]

1967-03-22 211½ Zora Folley 202½ 74-7-4
Madison Square Garden, New York City, New York, United States W KO 7 15
~ time: 1:48 | referee: Johnny LoBianco | judge: Frank Forbes | judge: Tony Castellano ~
~ WBA heavyweight title ~
Due to legal troubles, Ali would not fight for the next three years.
He officially retired on 1970-02-01 to allow the winner of the upcoming Joe Frazier-Jimmy Ellis unification bout to be considered the undisputed champion

1967-02-06 212¼ Ernie Terrell 212¼ 38-4-0
Astrodome, Houston, Texas, United States W UD 15 15
~ referee: Harry Kessler 148-137 | judge: Jimmy Webb 148-133 | judge: Ernie Taylor 148-137 ~
~ WBA heavyweight title ~

[My dinner with Conteh]

Ali UD, fairly obvious if you ask me.

[Manassa]

1967-03-22 211½ Zora Folley 202½ 74-7-4
Madison Square Garden, New York City, New York, United States W KO 7 15
~ time: 1:48 | referee: Johnny LoBianco | judge: Frank Forbes | judge: Tony Castellano ~
~ WBA heavyweight title ~
Due to legal troubles, Ali would not fight for the next three years.
He officially retired on 1970-02-01 to allow the winner of the upcoming Joe Frazier-Jimmy Ellis unification bout to be considered the undisputed champion

1967-02-06 212¼ Ernie Terrell 212¼ 38-4-0
Astrodome, Houston, Texas, United States W UD 15 15
~ referee: Harry Kessler 148-137 | judge: Jimmy Webb 148-133 | judge: Ernie Taylor 148-137 ~
~ WBA heavyweight title ~

Boxrec? Surprise, surprise. Didn't you know that site is almost never correct? Ali never fought in '67, he retired in '66.

[My dinner with Conteh]

He retired in 1966 but his secret twin brother stepped in for him in 1967. ;)

[Holmes' Jab]

Ali UD, fairly obvious if you ask me.

I don't think many would dispute that at all. It would most definitely be closer than what would have happened had their two actual fights lasted longer (ie: had Liston not quit X2)

A 58-61-ish Liston would most definitely be more competitive and at least would have that slight punchers chance vs pre-exile Ali (who's punch resistance was way more unproven against heavy hitters at this stage). Should Liston catch Ali flush, ala Cooper fight- it's all over. Despite that, I don't think Ali would allow himself to be too complacent in this one.

I'd still expect to see Ali previal- by at least three-four rounds on the cards, but this Liston would make a better fist of it than the '63 version. :yep

[ChrisPontius]

Boxrec? Surprise, surprise. Didn't you know that site is almost never correct? Ali never fought in '67, he retired in '66.

Was this your ultimate revenge from the hate you carry for heavyweights or are you just in a funny mood?:shock:

[Manassa]

Was this your ultimate revenge from the hate you carry for heavyweights or are you just in a funny mood?:shock:

Nope and nope, I'm serious. It's a myth that Ali fought and retired in '67.

[Addie]

"Ali was in his prime when he faced Spinks."

That's hilarious.

[Drew101]

Nope and nope, I'm serious. It's a myth that Ali fought and retired in '67.

Well done, Manassa. This is one of your better piss-takes.

:smoke

[Duodenum]

Boxrec?Now Manassa, you know darned well it's boxWRECK! (Get it right already, willya?)

[tommygun711]

quite possible for Liston to win this: Ali wasn't as tough as he was in the 70s. I banks and Cooper can floor Ali then I wouldn't put it past a much more dangerous Liston. Ali went on to win, but I think It would be very close. Liston would NOT get blown away.

[hhascup]

quite possible for Liston to win this: Ali wasn't as tough as he was in the 70s. I banks and Cooper can floor Ali then I wouldn't put it past a much more dangerous Liston. Ali went on to win, but I think It would be very close. Liston would NOT get blown away.

What really is at your best or prime. When Liston stopped Patterson twice in the 1st round, most of the experts were comparing him with all the all-time Greats, then 7 months later some say that he was passed his prime. If Liston fought anyone else in the top 10 that night he would have won. Ali just had the style to beat him, period.

[djanders]

What really is at your best or prime. When Liston stopped Patterson twice in the 1st round, most of the experts were comparing him with all the all-time Greats, then 7 months later some say that he was passed his prime. If Liston fought anyone else in the top 10 that night he would have won. Ali just had the style to beat him, period.

I agree!

Muhammad Ali had Sonny Liston's number. 1967 Ali would beat 1959 Liston by KO/TKO...in my opinion.

[tommygun711]

What really is at your best or prime. When Liston stopped Patterson twice in the 1st round, most of the experts were comparing him with all the all-time Greats, then 7 months later some say that he was passed his prime. If Liston fought anyone else in the top 10 that night he would have won. Ali just had the style to beat him, period.

I disagree with this because Liston didn't train as hard as he did with his other fights and well I don't think Liston was as in shape or fast as he was against maybe whitehurst or even Williams.
I would favor Ali any time anyway. except if this is 72' Liston vs 78 Ali. in that case Liston would beat Ali.

[hhascup]

I disagree with this because Liston didn't train as hard as he did with his other fights and well I don't think Liston was as in shape or fast as he was against maybe whitehurst or even Williams.
I would favor Ali any time anyway. except if this is 72' Liston vs 78 Ali. in that case Liston would beat Ali.

Maybe he looked slower because of the speed of Ali. By the way, I have the boxing gloves that Liston used in his last bout against Wepner.

[tommygun711]

Maybe he looked slower because of the speed of Ali. By the way, I have the boxing gloves that Liston used in his last bout against Wepner.
he didn't train though, so he was not the best liston that ever fought.
seriously? That's awesome.

[PetethePrince]

Tommy you're an asshole for bumping this.

[itrymariti]

ESB Classic is really not very good at detecting sarcasm.

[mcvey]

Ali was in his prime when he faced Spinks. Though less hasty and agile, he was much more experienced than the '60s version.
Are you pissed ,or on the evostik?

[madballster]

Liston could spend 24 hours a day in the gym, how would that improve his chin? Ali would stop him over and over again, no matter how well trained Liston is.

[mcvey]

Boxrec? Surprise, surprise. Didn't you know that site is almost never correct? Ali never fought in '67, he retired in '66.

Puberty can do strange things to the system,even, give you the illusion you are humorous .
We have enough twoddle with Frankenfrank,your return has been distinctly underwhelming , why not try skate boarding?:hi:

[tommygun711]

Tommy you're an asshole for bumping this.
;)

[Stevie G]

Peak Ali beats peak Liston. Either by clear points verdict or late round tko. Liston would have his moments,sure enough,but Ali would handle anything Liston threw at him.

[Bokaj]

Must say that line "he looked unusually slow when he faced Ali" isn't really the most clever one. The same is said is said of Patterson, Quarry, Terrell etc. The easy answer is that you tend to look slow when you're in with a much faster fighter, a fighter with great footwork who controls space and distance supremely well.

While Clay didn't face the best Liston, his decline has been exagerrated after the fact. Just as Duran's in New Orleans, Toney's weight drain, Hopkins "greeness" and every excuse for Mosley that is bound to pop up. I'm not saying that there is nothing to it in all of these cases, but it gets very overstated.

Ali wins easily in this scenario as well. Perhaps even clearer. Liston probably wouldn't or couldn't stick around for the final bell.

[Hookie]

Ali everytime. Liston is more overrated than Ali. Ali went 22-3 in HW World Title fights for God's sake! Liston went 2-0 (2) vs. Patterson... big difference. I don't even think Liston is top 10, but he's close.

[Hookie]

Must say that line "he looked unusually slow when he faced Ali" isn't really the most clever one. The same is said is said of Patterson, Quarry, Terrell etc. The easy answer is that you tend to look slow when you're in with a much faster fighter, a fighter with great footwork who controls space and distance supremely well.

While Clay didn't face the best Liston, his decline has been exagerrated after the fact. Just as Duran's in New Orleans, Toney's weight drain, Hopkins "greeness" and every excuse for Mosley that is bound to pop up. I'm not saying that there is nothing to it in all of these cases, but it gets very overstated.

Ali wins easily in this scenario as well. Perhaps even clearer. Liston probably wouldn't or couldn't stick around for the final bell.

good post

[MMJoe]

:nut Hmm, your funny and yet tragic at the same time, thats quite an achievement.

repulsive, yet somehow alluring...quite a dichotimy.

[McGrain]

Tommy you're an asshole for bumping this.

:lol: