Marciano vs. Norton

[MRBILL]

Rocky can be beating, any one can.
But at the same time, try not to underated the Rock when you mention guys like Willams, Bone Smith, Berbick, Thomas, Tucker ete would walk though Marciano if he was nothing.

I relly do belive had Marciano been in Tyson's era, He would have sweep Tysons foes, and even beat Douglas to boot.

I NEVER claimed that the 80s paper chumps would beat or walk through Marciano in a time machine... I did say that those paper chumps upon WINNING their titles, were pretty focused and ready to rumble.... I think them 80s chumps were good but also lazy and unmotivated... That's why they BLEW their titles within one or two defenses, etc..... But upon WINNING their paper titles, yes, "Weaver, Dokes, Coetzee, Page, Tubbs, Spoon, Thomas, Berbick & Bonecrusher Smith" were capable of giving Marciano problems or beating him..... I seriously doubt that Marciano would've smoked the whole lot in a time machine....... That's hard to digest.... Cheers....
:deal:thumbsup:bbb:yep:-(:D:shock:

MR.BILL:rasta

[Dempsey1238]

I think he do what Tyson did, may take a few rounds more, since Rocky started slower, but thats how I see it.

[groove]

All of Marciano's championship opponents were light heavyweights apart from an old Louis. Wowee! Marciano the best light heavyweight ever! Ali had more defences than Rocky before exile and yes he was also undefeated BUT came back to get the title at the same age as when Marciano retired. Young, Shavers were all at the end of his career. It really pisses me off that every ali hater brings these same fights up over and over again. You wanna see peak ali fighting then watch his fights in the 60s before exile.

[MRBILL]

All of Marciano's championship opponents were light heavyweights apart from an old Louis. Wowee! Marciano the best light heavyweight ever! Ali had more defences than Rocky before exile and yes he was also undefeated BUT came back to get the title at the same age as when Marciano retired. Young, Shavers were all at the end of his career. It really pisses me off that every ali hater brings these same fights up over and over again. You wanna see peak ali fighting then watch his fights in the 60s before exile.

I hear that, Groove....:yep

Ali was washed up after 1975 / '76, but he had one great effort left for 1977 against Earnie Shavers........ Shavers was in good shape and pumped for that shot..... Ali was in shape too, and had to really dig deep to fend off Shavers for 15 rds.... Earnie Shavers really raised his game in '77 for the fight with Ali / the title.....:yep:D

By 1978, I firmly believe Ali was in the early stages of Parkinson's syndrome... Ali was not right or the same in either fight with Leon Spinks... Ali was afflicted by 1978 with his illness.....

By 1980, prior to his fight with Larry Holmes, it was obvious as all hell Ali was ill....... How the hell did Ali pass the physical exam in Vegas?? That had to be a payoff right there.... Ali's motor skills had slown and his words were slurred..... Angelo Dundee said he thought Ali had caught a punch in the throat during sparring and that was why Ali's voice / speech seemed sloppy.... What a load of crap.....:twisted:

MR.BILL:bbb

[JIm Broughton]

Give Marciano credit for what he did in his own era but let's not get carried away here. If we dropped Rock's opponents smack dab in the late 60's-early 70's they would be brutalized. Walcott and Moore would be the only ones that would be competitive. Matthews and Cockell would be annihillated by the likes of Liston, Foreman and smokin' Joe. Charles was a light heavy albeit a great one. He could win a belt in that division in the 60's-70's but not at HW. Rocky fought in an era when heavyweights were quite a bit smaller than heavies of later years. Hell most of Marciano's best opponents were blown up middleweights or light heavyweights. Nothing like the big athletic heavyweights that would come later on, Ali being the best example of course. I'm a monster Marciano fan but even I have to be realistic here. It's not his weight that would be detrimental. I'm sure Rocky could hurt anyone but it's his overall dimensions(Height and reach) along with his relative lack of speed and style that would do him in. He would just have too hard a time getting close enough to do any real damage. That 69" reach would be inneffective against a bigger and faster moving HW with a long reach and a good jab ala Ali, Holmes, Foreman(Yes Foreman) Lewis and the Douglas that beat Tyson. He would be eating leather all night just trying to close the gap. Like I've said before, these men would have the advantage of landing thier shots from far away and then getting out of there before Marciano counters. All of Marciano's opponents were there to be hit. Ali, Holmes, Lewis, Bowe et al wouldn't be. And while Rocky could punch, hitting a 175-190lb man isn't quite the same as hitting a 220lb man, assuming of course that he's good. One or two shots from Rocky aren't going to KO Ali or Foreman or Holmes period. So how else is he going to win, outbox them with his exceptional speed? outjab them from a distance. The fact is that as the 60's and 70's came along athletes in all sports got bigger and faster and more athletic and boxing was no different. Marciano is an all time great who was the best HW of his era. I feel it's a bit over the top however to say that he would easily defeat the HW's of subsequent eras. Men who were quite a bit larger and often times faster than the type of opponent Rocky was used to fighting.

[MRBILL]

I think we finally beat this topic into the ground like a dead horse....:D:patsch:blood:admin

SR.BILLARDO:bbb

[Dempsey1238]

Well thsos bigs heavyweights should lost to old Archie Moore didnt they?? I mean he was still whipping the big boys when he fought Ali.
I guess the 1960's were a weaker breed of men than the 50's.

[Dempsey1238]

Give Marciano credit for what he did in his own era but let's not get carried away here. If we dropped Rock's opponents smack dab in the late 60's-early 70's they would be brutalized. Walcott and Moore would be the only ones that would be competitive. Matthews and Cockell would be annihillated by the likes of Liston, Foreman and smokin' Joe. Charles was a light heavy albeit a great one. He could win a belt in that division in the 60's-70's but not at HW. Rocky fought in an era when heavyweights were quite a bit smaller than heavies of later years. Hell most of Marciano's best opponents were blown up middleweights or light heavyweights. Nothing like the big athletic heavyweights that would come later on, Ali being the best example of course. I'm a monster Marciano fan but even I have to be realistic here. It's not his weight that would be detrimental. I'm sure Rocky could hurt anyone but it's his overall dimensions(Height and reach) along with his relative lack of speed and style that would do him in. He would just have too hard a time getting close enough to do any real damage. That 69" reach would be inneffective against a bigger and faster moving HW with a long reach and a good jab ala Ali, Holmes, Foreman(Yes Foreman) Lewis and the Douglas that beat Tyson. He would be eating leather all night just trying to close the gap. Like I've said before, these men would have the advantage of landing thier shots from far away and then getting out of there before Marciano counters. All of Marciano's opponents were there to be hit. Ali, Holmes, Lewis, Bowe et al wouldn't be. And while Rocky could punch, hitting a 175-190lb man isn't quite the same as hitting a 220lb man, assuming of course that he's good. One or two shots from Rocky aren't going to KO Ali or Foreman or Holmes period. So how else is he going to win, outbox them with his exceptional speed? outjab them from a distance. The fact is that as the 60's and 70's came along athletes in all sports got bigger and faster and more athletic and boxing was no different. Marciano is an all time great who was the best HW of his era. I feel it's a bit over the top however to say that he would easily defeat the HW's of subsequent eras. Men who were quite a bit larger and often times faster than the type of opponent Rocky was used to fighting.

He wont ko Ali or Holmes with one punch. He would beat Ali and Holmes by OUTSWARMING them. Marciano ant no Shavers that thowns one good punch and hope for the best. Rocky would be on top of em like Pac was on Hatton.

[hhascup]

Give Marciano credit for what he did in his own era but let's not get carried away here. If we dropped Rock's opponents smack dab in the late 60's-early 70's they would be brutalized. Walcott and Moore would be the only ones that would be competitive. Matthews and Cockell would be annihillated by the likes of Liston, Foreman and smokin' Joe. Charles was a light heavy albeit a great one. He could win a belt in that division in the 60's-70's but not at HW. Rocky fought in an era when heavyweights were quite a bit smaller than heavies of later years. Hell most of Marciano's best opponents were blown up middleweights or light heavyweights. Nothing like the big athletic heavyweights that would come later on, Ali being the best example of course. I'm a monster Marciano fan but even I have to be realistic here. It's not his weight that would be detrimental. I'm sure Rocky could hurt anyone but it's his overall dimensions(Height and reach) along with his relative lack of speed and style that would do him in. He would just have too hard a time getting close enough to do any real damage. That 69" reach would be inneffective against a bigger and faster moving HW with a long reach and a good jab ala Ali, Holmes, Foreman(Yes Foreman) Lewis and the Douglas that beat Tyson. He would be eating leather all night just trying to close the gap. Like I've said before, these men would have the advantage of landing thier shots from far away and then getting out of there before Marciano counters. All of Marciano's opponents were there to be hit. Ali, Holmes, Lewis, Bowe et al wouldn't be. And while Rocky could punch, hitting a 175-190lb man isn't quite the same as hitting a 220lb man, assuming of course that he's good. One or two shots from Rocky aren't going to KO Ali or Foreman or Holmes period. So how else is he going to win, outbox them with his exceptional speed? outjab them from a distance. The fact is that as the 60's and 70's came along athletes in all sports got bigger and faster and more athletic and boxing was no different. Marciano is an all time great who was the best HW of his era. I feel it's a bit over the top however to say that he would easily defeat the HW's of subsequent eras. Men who were quite a bit larger and often times faster than the type of opponent Rocky was used to fighting.

I agree with most if not all of what your saying.

He wont ko Ali or Holmes with one punch. He would beat Ali and Holmes by OUTSWARMING them. Marciano ant no Shavers that thowns one good punch and hope for the best. Rocky would be on top of em like Pac was on Hatton.

I agree with the 1st part (He wont ko Ali or Holmes with one punch) BUT disagree with the 2nd (He would beat Ali and Holmes by OUTSWARMING them).

It would be very hard for him to OUTSWARM either Ali or Holmes. They would outweigh him by 30 to 40 pounds, will have 4 to 5 inches in height and more then a foot in reach, PLUS both of them had excellent chins and stamina.

PLUS, Rocky never liked fighting on the inside, in fact several of his sparring partners stated that and he also stated that several times on his TV show "Main Event." He said tat he needed room for his powerful punches.

[Dempsey1238]

I agree with most if not all of what your saying.



I agree with the 1st part (He wont ko Ali or Holmes with one punch) BUT disagree with the 2nd (He would beat Ali and Holmes by OUTSWARMING them).

It would be very hard for him to OUTSWARM either Ali or Holmes. They would outweigh him by 30 to 40 pounds, will have 4 to 5 inches in height and more then a foot in reach, PLUS both of them had excellent chins and stamina.

PLUS, Rocky never liked fighting on the inside, in fact several of his sparring partners stated that and he also stated that several times on his TV show "Main Event." He said tat he needed room for his powerful punches.

Fight film proves otherwise, he didnt used room for Charles and Moore.
And if Ali can lose to Frazier, and have troubles with Chuvalo, who gave Ali a bad body beating, I think Rocky could repeat the effect of this guys.
Marciano didnt need room to lay waste to Rex Layne either thinking about it.

[MRBILL]

The '52 to '55 Marciano would be out-boxed and butchered by a 1960 to 1963 version of Sonny Liston in a time machine..... No doubt in my mind..... And guys like Ali and Holmes are a cut above a prime Liston in the ring........ Ali & Holmes may have a few rough rds with Ol' Rocco, but they'd get the job done and find a way to win the fight..... Again, in a 12 rounder, Marciano loses a decision to Ali & Holmes... In a 15 rounder, I see Marciano getting TKO'd late by way of cuts and blood....

I've stated it time and time again, Rocco Marciano would do very well with all the heavyweight champs from 1887 to 1960..... But I do see Jack Johnson and Joe Louis being the ultimate cream of the crop during that time frame..... Post 1960, "Liston, Ali, Foreman, Holmes, Tyson, Holy, Bowe, Lewis & Vitali Klit" park Marciano like a Cadillac in a time machine....... Peace......

MR.BILL

[hhascup]

Fight film proves otherwise, he didnt used room for Charles and Moore.
And if Ali can lose to Frazier, and have troubles with Chuvalo, who gave Ali a bad body beating, I think Rocky could repeat the effect of this guys.
Marciano didnt need room to lay waste to Rex Layne either thinking about it.

Then your saying that Rocky wasn't telling the truth, because he stated this many times and several of his sparring partners stated the same as well, so I think I have to believe them. If you look at the films, which he himself went over on his TV show, you will see that he threw his haymakers from long range.

He might have been able to push around 180 to 190 pounders, BUT Ali and Holmes were not 180 to 190 pounders.

[OLD FOGEY]

I do want to say that if the bigger men of the future are used to put dpwm the record of one fighter, they same standard should be applied to other fighters.

Ali went 56-5 in 61 fights. Frankly, I think Lennox Lewis and Vitali Klitschko both do considerably better against those 61 opponents. Norton held his own against Ali in three fights and 39 rounds. No way I see him doing that against Lewis or Klitschko. I can't imagine either Vitali or Lennor ever losing to Leon Spinks. Nor going to a close decision with puffed up lightheavy Doug Jones. I don't see Jimmy Young giving either of them much trouble either. You might argue that some big puncher like Liston or Foreman or Shavers gets lucky against Lennox, but frankly, I think it is a long shot. Maybe the 1980 Holmes can handle aged versions of either, although I doubt it, but one thing I think is for certain. He wouldn't win every round against them like he did against Ali.

[Dempsey1238]

Then your saying that Rocky wasn't telling the truth, because he stated this many times and several of his sparring partners stated the same as well, so I think I have to believe them. If you look at the films, which he himself went over on his TV show, you will see that he threw his haymakers from long range.

He might have been able to push around 180 to 190 pounders, BUT Ali and Holmes were not 180 to 190 pounders.

Yes, he even said many times that Harry Kid Matthews was his hardest fight, and again fight film shows Marciano blow him out in 2 rounds.

Again he added Walcott, Charles and Moore to the list.

[hhascup]

The '52 to '55 Marciano would be out-boxed and butchered by a 1960 to 1963 version of Sonny Liston in a time machine..... No doubt in my mind..... And guys like Ali and Holmes are a cut above a prime Liston in the ring........ Ali & Holmes may have a few rough rds with Ol' Rocco, but they'd get the job done and find a way to win the fight..... Again, in a 12 rounder, Marciano loses a decision to Ali & Holmes... In a 15 rounder, I see Marciano getting TKO'd late by way of cuts and blood....

I've stated it time and time again, Rocco Marciano would do very well with all the heavyweight champs from 1887 to 1960..... But I do see Jack Johnson and Joe Louis being the ultimate cream of the crop during that time frame..... Post 1960, "Liston, Ali, Foreman, Holmes, Tyson, Holy, Bowe, Lewis & Vitali Klit" park Marciano like a Cadillac in a time machine....... Peace......

MR.BILL

I agree with you on most BUT I feel Ali and Holmes would not have that much trouble with Rocky. They would be too BIG (reach, height, weight), too FAST, both had a GREAT left jabs and 2 of the best chins in Heavyweight history.

[MRBILL]

Just like somebody mentioned before.... Size doesn't always matter.... BUT! It does when talking about "Ali and Holmes." Why? Because they are ALL-TIME greats of the ring who kicked ass and took names later in their primes.......

A smaller dude in shape who has the mentality of a real fighter can and will beat up and push back a pussy like a "Baby Huey." Hulks like "Carnera and Valuev" are typical Baby Huey type fighters who have got little to no clue how to be a bad ass and apply themselves in a firm manner in the ring...... Other dudes like "Jess Willard and Luis Firpo" were hulks who could punch, but really had no skill on how to deliver a wicked series of punches in a proper manner...... Again, more "Baby Huey" type of fighters........

SO! You take dudes like "Liston, Ali, Frazier, Foreman, Holmes, Tyson, Holy , Bowe & Vitali Klit" who are NOT pussy type fighters who are clueless, and put them skilled monsters with size and power up against a smaller fighter like Marciano with skill and power, I'm gonna go with the bigger and more advanced tank in the battle field...... Peace...

MR.BILL

[hhascup]

Yes, he even said many times that Harry Kid Matthews was his hardest fight, and again fight film shows Marciano blow him out in 2 rounds.

Again he added Walcott, Charles and Moore to the list.

I think you mean that he said Vingo was his toughest fight BUT I hate to keep correcting you.

[OLD FOGEY]

Just like somebody mentioned before.... Size doesn't always matter.... BUT! It does when talking about "Ali and Holmes." Why? Because they are ALL-TIME greats of the ring who kicked ass and took names later in their primes.......

A smaller dude in shape who has the mentality of a real fighter can and will beat up and push back a pussy like a "Baby Huey." Hulks like "Carnera and Valuev" are typical Baby Huey type fighters who have got little to no clue how to be a bad ass and apply themselves in a firm manner in the ring...... Other dudes like "Jess Willard and Luis Firpo" were hulks who coul;d punch, but really had no skill on how to deliver a wicked series of punches in a proper manner...... Again, more "Baby Huey" type of fighters........

SO! You take dudes like "Liston, Ali, Frazier, Foreman, Holmes, Tyson, Holy , Bowe & Vitali Klit" who are NOT pussy type fighters who are clueless, and put them skilled monsters with size and power up against a smaller fighter like Marciano with skill and power, I'm gonna go with the bigger and more advanced tank in the battle field...... Peace...

MR.BILL

And I think Lewis and Vitali handle Holmes and Ali. Holmes at 6' 3" and 209 (for Ali) is a small man compared to the other two. As a matter of fact, he is smaller compared to them than Marciano is to him. I also think Wlad would take Holmes who didn't have the really big punch to keep Wlad honest and who was also vulnerable to an overhand right.

[hhascup]

Just like somebody mentioned before.... Size doesn't always matter.... BUT! It does when talking about "Ali and Holmes." Why? Because they are ALL-TIME greats of the ring who kicked ass and took names later in their primes.......

A smaller dude in shape who has the mentality of a real fighter can and will beat up and push back a pussy like a "Baby Huey." Hulks like "Carnera and Valuev" are typical Baby Huey type fighters who have got little to no clue how to be a bad ass and apply themselves in a firm manner in the ring...... Other dudes like "Jess Willard and Luis Firpo" were hulks who could punch, but really had no skill on how to deliver a wicked series of punches in a proper manner...... Again, more "Baby Huey" type of fighters........

SO! You take dudes like "Liston, Ali, Frazier, Foreman, Holmes, Tyson, Holy , Bowe & Vitali Klit" who are NOT pussy type fighters who are clueless, and put them skilled monsters with size and power up against a smaller fighter like Marciano with skill and power, I'm gonna go with the bigger and more advanced tank in the battle field...... Peace...

MR.BILL

Agreed!

[OLD FOGEY]

I think you mean that he said Vingo was his toughest fight BUT I hate to keep correcting you.

On his TV show, he said to Jersey Joe Walcott directly that Jersey Joe was his toughest opponent.

I think many of these "you were my toughest opponent" comments are just someone being gracious at a banquet or testimonial.

[hhascup]

And I think Lewis and Vitali handle Holmes and Ali. Holmes at 6' 3" and 209 (for Ali) is a small man compared to the other two. As a matter of fact, he is smaller compared to them than Marciano is to him. I also think Wlad would take Holmes who didn't have the really big punch to keep Wlad honest and who was also vulnerable to an overhand right.


I like both of them BUT I really don't rate them until there retired. I do believe Lewis would have given Ali and real test and has the best chance of beating him BUT I also think that Ali's speed would be the telling factor.

[hhascup]

On his TV show, he said to Jersey Joe Walcott directly that Jersey Joe was his toughest opponent.

I think many of these "you were my toughest opponent" comments are just someone being gracious at a banquet or testimonial.

I think he meant fight, not fighter.

"Toughest fight of my career," according to Marciano in 1962, when he was talking about his bout with Vingo.

[OLD FOGEY]

I like both of them BUT I really don't rate them until there retired. I do believe Lewis would have given Ali and real test and has the best chance of beating him BUT I also think that Ali's speed would be the telling factor.

There are always guys out there who are smaller and faster. They have rarely been champions. The guys with the big punches usually are. Ali and Holmes were not top level punchers and I think that fact would make it very hard for them to deal with much bigger but still skilled men such as Lewis and Vitali, who also had more punching power.

Ali and Holmes were big fellows in their day, but their day is long gone. Today they would be smallish.

[Dempsey1238]

No it was Harry Kid Matthews, I have the interview in some mag. He mostly base it off of ONE punch though, but he still nameed him as one of his hardest fight.

[OLD FOGEY]

I think he meant fight, not fighter.

"Toughest fight of my career," according to Marciano in 1962, when he was talking about his bout with Vingo.

Well, I would like to see the show again, but I thought he credited Walcott with being the best boxer and the hardest puncher he fought. Of course, Walcott was sitting next to him, and perhaps he was just being gracious, but it does make more sense than Vingo.

[hhascup]

There are always guys out there who are smaller and faster. They have rarely been champions. The guys with the big punches usually are. Ali and Holmes were not top level punchers and I think that fact would make it very hard for them to deal with much bigger but still skilled men such as Lewis and Vitali, who also had more punching power.

Ali and Holmes were big fellows in their day, but their day is long gone. Today they would be smallish.

I can agree with that and that is why I say that Lewis would have the best chance of beating Ali, BUT again I think Ali would somehow come out on top. Ali was so fast when he was Champion in the 1960's. His left jab was timed faster then Robinson's. I met Lewis several years go, and I even had the pleasure of introducing him. I was very impressed by him, BUT a lot of boxing people hold his 2 KO losses against him.

[MRBILL]

And I think Lewis and Vitali handle Holmes and Ali. Holmes at 6' 3" and 209 (for Ali) is a small man compared to the other two. As a matter of fact, he is smaller compared to them than Marciano is to him. I also think Wlad would take Holmes who didn't have the really big punch to keep Wlad honest and who was also vulnerable to an overhand right.

It's all possible..... Clay was 210 1/2 for Liston and Holmes was 209 for Norton & 211 for Ali in 1980..... BOTH guys were right around 210 pounds in the initial / early going as champion..... By the end of their reigns and best days, BOTH Ali & Holmes were fighting between 220 to 225 pounds on a regular basis...... Ali and Holmes were not monsterous, yet hardly small either...... Peace....

MR.BILL:D:bbb

[hhascup]

No it was Harry Kid Matthews, I have the interview in some mag. He mostly base it off of ONE punch though, but he still nameed him as one of his hardest fight.

PLEASE find the magazine, because I have just about all of them.

Well, I would like to see the show again, but I thought he credited Walcott with being the best boxer and the hardest puncher he fought. Of course, Walcott was sitting next to him, and perhaps he was just being gracious, but it does make more sense than Vingo.

I have all the "Main Event" shows at home, BUT I am still in Florida until next Tuesday.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[OLD FOGEY]

I can agree with that and that is why I say that Lewis would have the best chance of beating Ali, BUT again I think Ali would somehow come out on top. Ali was so fast when he was Champion in the 1960's. His left jab was timed faster then Robinson's. I met Lewis several years go, and I even had the pleasure of introducing him. I was very impressed by him, BUT a lot of boxing people hold his 2 KO losses against him.

My take is despite the ko's, Lewis decisively defeated everyone he ever fought. Ali did not decisively defeat Norton in three tries and he wasn't all that old. I am hard pressed to imagine Norton ever defeating Lewis.

I think the huge size advantage for Lewis would be critical. Ali was the greatest in his time, and certainly you can make a powerful case that he was the greatest in an historical sense, but head to head, I think he has trouble with the modern giants.

[MRBILL]

I have all the "Main Event" shows at home, BUT I am still in Florida until next Tuesday.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

I like "The Main Event" Show, but I hate how they butcher most of the film footage.....:twisted:

MR.BILL:deal

[OLD FOGEY]

It's all possible..... Clay was 210 1/2 for Liston and Holmes was 209 for Norton & 211 for Ali in 1980..... BOTH guys were right around 210 pounds in the initial / early going as champion..... By the end of their reigns and best days, BOTH Ali & Holmes were fighting between 220 to 225 pounds on a regular basis...... Ali and Holmes were not monsterous, yet hardly small either...... Peace....

MR.BILL:D:bbb

225 is smallish today. And that weight is when they were old and past their best. Also, in Ali's case, most of his opponents were smaller than he was, not much larger. Even a big guy like Foreman only had 4 pounds on him. Thirty or forty pounds is going to be a different world.

[MRBILL]

My take is despite the ko's, Lewis decisively defeated everyone he ever fought. Ali did not decisively defeat Norton in three tries and he wasn't all that old. I am hard pressed to imagine Norton ever defeating Lewis.

I think the huge size advantage for Lewis would be critical. Ali was the greatest in his time, and certainly you can make a powerful case that he was the greatest in an historical sense, but head to head, I think he has trouble with the modern giants.

Lennox Lewis is a truly ALL-TIME great champion......... I get really pissed when people call him chinny............... Lewis got iced twice...... Their is NO SHAME in getting knocked into Orbit by the Right Hands of Ollie McCall and Hasim Rahman if they land flush on your jawbone..... Lewis ate a pair of Whoppers in them two fights of 1994 and 2001........... Nobody in their right mind is gonna stand there and allow McCall & Rahman to take a poke at their jaw if they can avoid it......... Both McCall and Rahman landed two sneaky bombs........ Hey, shit happens.........
:deal:bbb:yep:shock:

MR.BILL

[MRBILL]

225 is smallish today. And that weight is when they were old and past their best. Also, in Ali's case, most of his opponents were smaller than he was, not much larger. Even a big guy like Foreman only had 4 pounds on him. Thirty or forty pounds is going to be a different world.

True.... Still a dude who is 215 to 220 pounds today is still worthy and capable of being dangerous.... Take Evander Holy for instance..... As a heavyweight, he has fought between 202 to 220 pounds since 1988..... Holy is a solid Hall of Fame fighter and legit bad ass world champion....

I agree... Ali 4 outta 5 times was the bigger man in the ring......

Holmes was big at first, but by 1982 or so, he began facing new kids on the block that were heavier, but normally less skilled and green..... STILL! Holmes was great...

MR.BILL:bbb

[hhascup]

My take is despite the ko's, Lewis decisively defeated everyone he ever fought. Ali did not decisively defeat Norton in three tries and he wasn't all that old. I am hard pressed to imagine Norton ever defeating Lewis.

I think the huge size advantage for Lewis would be critical. Ali was the greatest in his time, and certainly you can make a powerful case that he was the greatest in an historical sense, but head to head, I think he has trouble with the modern giants.

True BUT styles make fights, as you know. I think Ali's speed was the best of any heavyweight and speed is Great tool. I have all the top boxing historian ratings and none of them have Lewis over Ali, BUT again, if someone can beat him, it would be Lewis.

[MRBILL]

I love Lenny Lewis, but, he never had the natural fluid movement to box and glide about the ring like Ali and Holmes........... Lewis' movements looked coached and studied to me........ Lewis did get much better as a stylist with Manny Steward at his side from 1995 upward, but Lewis still never was as fluid or as slick / spry as a youthful Ali or Holmes...... BUT! Lewis was a much better puncher........... Lewis is in my top-5 at heavyweight........

MR.BILL

[OLD FOGEY]

True BUT styles make fights, as you know. I think Ali's speed was the best of any heavyweight and speed is Great tool. I have all the top boxing historian ratings and none of them have Lewis over Ali, BUT again, if someone can beat him, it would be Lewis.

Why would you assume that Ali's style is the one to beat Lewis when the men who actually did so were the big punchers? Nobody outboxed Lewis or Klitschko. As Mendoza never tires of pointing out, Vitali has rarely even lost a round.

As for the "historians", Bert Sugar does not even have Lewis in his top ten.

[DocDevil]

To the main question,don't think Marciano would be a good match for Norton.Rocky could take a punch,go the limit, great endurance,and score a knockout.I can't imagine Norton just deciding he is gonna score a decision over the Rock.Norton's best fights were going the limit with Young,Ali,and Holmes,where he won at a 50% clip.None of these guys were great in fighters.Norton could get careless,and wasn't known for taking punishment.

[hhascup]

Why would you assume that Ali's style is the one to beat Lewis when the men who actually did so were the big punchers? Nobody outboxed Lewis or Klitschko. As Mendoza never tires of pointing out, Vitali has rarely even lost a round.

As for the "historians", Bert Sugar does not even have Lewis in his top ten.

Neither of them ever fought anyone close to Ali, with his speed, jab, defense and smarts. I do give both of them credit, as I keep saying, Lewis would of had the best chance of beating Ali. I'll even say that if anyone could beat Ali, it would be Lewis.

[sugarkills]

Marciano wins by KO in the first round.

[OLD FOGEY]

Neither of them ever fought anyone close to Ali, with his speed, jab, defense and smarts. I do give both of them credit, as I keep saying, Lewis would of had the best chance of beating Ali. I'll even say that if anyone could beat Ali, it would be Lewis.

I wouldn't be that certain that the 6' 3" Ali outjabs the taller Lewis and the much taller Klitschko. The foot speed will be negated by the sheer height of someone like Klitschko. Vitali wouldn't have to chase after him. He will be able to reach him from the outside. Most of Ali's much shorter opponents couldn't do that.

Lewis fought Holyfield and Holyfield is much closer to Ali than any of Ali's opponents are to Lewis or Vitali.

[hhascup]

I wouldn't be that certain that the 6' 3" Ali outjabs the taller Lewis and the much taller Klitschko. The foot speed will be negated by the sheer height of someone like Klitschko. Vitali wouldn't have to chase after him. He will be able to reach him from the outside. Most of Ali's much shorter opponents couldn't do that.

Lewis fought Holyfield and Holyfield is much closer to Ali than any of Ali's opponents are to Lewis or Vitali.


True, BUT Holyfield wasn't close to Ali when it comes to speed, etc. Ali's left jab was the fastest (timed) in heavyweight history. Ali had no trouble with 6'6" Terrell, even though Terrell was no Lewis or Klitschko.

[OLD FOGEY]

True, BUT Holyfield wasn't close to Ali when it comes to speed, etc. Ali's left jab was the fastest (timed) in heavyweight history. Ali had no trouble with 6'6" Terrell, even though Terrell was no Lewis or Klitschko.

"Terrell was no Lewis or Klitschko"

Henry. I agree.

You are arguing that speed overcomes size. I don't think so, or Billy Conn and Sugar Ray Robinson and Roy Jones would have been heavyweight champions. Speed only overcomes size to a degree.

[Bummy Davis]

True, BUT Holyfield wasn't close to Ali when it comes to speed, etc. Ali's left jab was the fastest (timed) in heavyweight history. Ali had no trouble with 6'6" Terrell, even though Terrell was no Lewis or Klitschko.


Terrell was no where close to Klitschko or Lewis...Terrell was not a puncher and was little else than tall for the comparison. Who did Ali fight that was a good as Lewis or Klitchko....overall

[hhascup]

"Terrell was no Lewis or Klitschko"

Henry. I agree.

You are arguing that speed overcomes size. I don't think so, or Billy Conn and Sugar Ray Robinson and Roy Jones would have been heavyweight champions. Speed only overcomes size to a degree.

Actually, Jones was, BUT not really, and Conn could have been if he played it smart, BUT I know what your saying.

Terrell was no where close to Klitschko or Lewis...Terrell was not a puncher and was little else than tall for the comparison. Who did Ali fight that was a good as Lewis or Klitchko....overall

Some people might say, Foreman, Frazier & Liston BUT the real question would be, who did they box that was as good as Ali?

Most top historians have Ali or Louis as #1, BUT that is going by their overall career. Head to head, they still have Ali, BUT Louis drops down a little. I guess it depends on how you want to rate them.

[SuzieQ49]

PLUS, Rocky never liked fighting on the inside, in fact several of his sparring partners stated that and he also stated that several times on his TV show "Main Event." He said tat he needed room for his powerful punches.


Honestly Henry,

I respect the hell out of you and your opinion, but for you to buy into that Bull is insane. Marciano had a 68" reach, HE HAD HUGE LEVAGERE on the inside with his short arms. Marciano both technically and efficiency was one of the BEST inside fighters we have ever seen on film, and his 68" reach was the reason why. HUGE LEVERAGE advantage. I dont care what Marciano said, film tells a different story than his choice of words

[OLD FOGEY]

Actually, Jones was, BUT not really, and Conn could have been if he played it smart, BUT I know what your saying.



Some people might say, Foreman, Frazier & Liston BUT the real question would be, who did they box that was as good as Ali?

Most top historians have Ali or Louis as #1, BUT that is going by their overall career. Head to head, they still have Ali, BUT Louis drops down a little. I guess it depends on how you want to rate them.


"Who did they box that was as good as Ali"

Each other.

As for Frazier, too small at 205 to handle these big men.

Liston--Also much smaller and the only men he ever beat over 220 lbs were the mediocre Zech and Wepner, it is really a shot in the dark that he handles skilled and powerful fighters this much bigger than he was.

Foreman--Perhaps the best chance, but both Vitali and Lewis are better boxers. Foreman's best victims, Frazier, Norton, and Moorer, were tiny compared to the modern giants. Cooney was close in size, but he was totally washed up and not as good to begin with.

[hhascup]

Honestly Henry,

I respect the hell out of you and your opinion, but for you to buy into that Bull is insane. Marciano had a 68" reach, HE HAD HUGE LEVAGERE on the inside with his short arms. Marciano both technically and efficiency was one of the BEST inside fighters we have ever seen on film, and his 68" reach was the reason why. HUGE LEVERAGE advantage. I dont care what Marciano said, film tells a different story than his choice of words

Thank you, BUT here's the article I was talking about:

Heavyweight: Toxey Hall: He had a piece of the Rock ... Every Day:

By Pete Ehrmann

Toxey Hall thought his boxing career had been TKO'd when he walked into Chicago's Midwest Boxing Gym one day in the spring of 1953. Although he had local Golden Gloves and Catholic Youth Organization titles on his resume, and had gone 7-2-2 as a professional boxer the year before, win or lose, Hall's face swelled up like a beach ball. It didn't take much for it to happen, either.

"I could blow my nose and swell up," said Hall, now 72. "After a while, I decided boxing was not my thing to make a living."

Born in Prentiss, Mississippi, Hall grew up helping his scharecropper father on their 180-acre farm. Good at football and baseball, he had no particular interest in boxing until he joined the Army in 1946 and had several bouts. When he was discharged, Hall decided to settle in Chicago, and began working in a cardboard box factory. On the second floor of the building was the CYO Gym, whose director was Tony Zale, the 1940s middleweight champion. Hall began working out under Zale' s tutelage.

"What really got me interested," Hall recalled, "was in 1950, when I won the Joe Louis Sportsman Trophy in the National Golden Gloves tournament, and I started getting calls. People started treating me like I was the heavyweight champion of the world. I had no intention of doing anything in boxing. I was just trying to make a living. But these guys were so nice and good to me, and finally talked me into going pro."

His manager was Ike Bernstein, who also had hard-punching Chicago light heavyweight contender Bob Satterfield. Satterfield's big drawback as a fighter was a glass jaw; Hall's was sensitive facial tissue. After fights, he sometimes had difficulty seeing out of his swollen eyes. A doctor told him there was nothing that could be done for it, and warned that Hall's vision might eventually become impaired if he fought more than once or twice a year.

So on that day in '53 at the Midwest Gym, Hall was just a box-maker trying to stay in shape when his life was changed by the appearance of the heavyweight champion of the world.

Rocky Marciano had won the title on September 22, 1952, by knocking out
Jersey Joe Walcott in the 13th round. The undefeated Marciano was scheduled to defend the title in a rematch with Walcott at Chicago Stadium on May 15. The champion brought three sparring partners with him to the gym, and in short order each of them went off in search of medical attention.

"Marciano had this right hand punch called 'Suzy-Q,' and he would bang up everybody's ribs," Hall said.

Looking for additional fodder, Marciano's trainer, Charley Goldman, spotted the 5' 11", 195-pound Hall and asked if he would be interested in sparring with the champion. Hall didn't hesitate before agreeing.

"I was a young man, and I wasn't even thinking that I was going to be 72 years old one day," Hall recalled with a laugh.

He wasn't even fazed when Marciano's introductory remarks cast that prospect in some doubt.

"Toxey, I don't mean any harm," said the champion who had knocked out 38 of his 42 opponents, "but everybody in the ring is my enemy. I don't pull no punches. Anybody who gets in the ring with me, even my friends, I'm knocking them out if I can."

"That was pretty nice of you to tell me that," Hall answered genially, "so I won't pull no punches, either."

Four rounds later, Hall was back in the fight game full-time.

"I love the way you work," Marciano told him. "Will you come to training camp with me?"

For the next three years, the Chicago fighter was paid $100 a week to help prepare Marciano-who knocked out Walcott in the first round of their second match-for five additional title defenses, and accompanied him on exhibitions around the country and overseas.

"I stayed with him until he retired," said Hall. "It was really a pleasure.

A pleasure, courting the dreaded Suzy-Q five days a week?

"That first time I was skeptical," admitted Hall. "But I would've got into the ring with the heavyweight champion of the world, even if I knowed he would knock me out. It was a thrill-and after that it was just like drinking water. He hit me good, but I don't remember him hurting me. One time he hit me above the eye, and it busted open."

To protect his vulnerable face, Marciano gave Hall one of the specially designed headgear the champion wore.

"Most of the sparring partners would get hurt in their rib cage and wore football pads to protect them," said Hall. "But for some reason, that was my toughest part, and it didn't bother me much.

"The thing is that Rocky couldn't do much if you crowded him. But if you gave him room, he'd knock you out. If he hurt me a little bit, I'd turn and run."

The one slight exception was when they were preparing for Marciano's defense against England's Don Cockell in San Francisco on May 16, 1955. Before they got into the ring to spar, Hall mentioned that the champion was carrying his right hand low and exposing his chin.

"Why don't you just hit me then?" Marciano challenged.

So, recalled Hall, "I hit him with a left hook, and down he went."

The press was there, and the incident got worldwide coverage. Marciano said nothing at the time, but the next day when they were doing roadwork together, the champion stopped and said, "Toxey, you son of a bitch, you knocked me down in front of all those guys."

But Marciano wasn't really upset. "We laughed about it," Hall said. "He liked rough stuff."

Outside the ropes, Marciano treated Hall like a brother. "He was a fantastic guy," the former sparring partner said. "We got so close, like two peas in a pod. It was really a blessing to be with him."

Hall not only gained fame as the champion's chief sparring partner, but "every time somebody gave Rocky a gift, there was one for me, too. I got all kinds of sports coats and rings."

One of Hall's most prized possessions are the cufflinks he received from Marciano after golfing great Ben Hogan presented The Rock with two sets of the specially designed pieces of jewelry.

Marciano biographers have painted him as the kind of person who felt about a dollar the way Charlton Heston does about his rifle-the only way to get it away from him is to claw it from his cold, dead hand. But that's not the Marciano that Hall knew.

"He never carried no money in his pocket," Hall acknowledged. "We'd be out there shooting dice, and he'd say, 'Let me have a dollar.' But he never forgot my birthday or my wife's birthday."

Hall often received generous bonuses, he said, including checks for $1,500 at Christmas.

In addition to his sparring duties, Hall fought on the undercards of Marciano's title defenses, and he also augmented his income by taking bouts between training camps. From 1953 to '56, Hall met some of boxing's best names, such as light heavyweight champion Archie Moore and future l75-pound champion Harold Johnson, and heavyweight contenders John Holman and Bob Baker. But without Marciano's special headgear to protect his features, Hall lost as often as he won, and finished with a 13-13-4 (7) record.

His biggest victory came on November 14, 1955, when he won a decision over former heavyweight champion Ezzard Charles in Providence, Rhode Island, though afterward Hall said his head was "swole up like two heads."

[hhascup]

"Who did they box that was as good as Ali"

Each other.

As for Frazier, too small at 205 to handle these big men.

Liston--Also much smaller and the only men he ever beat over 220 lbs were the mediocre Zech and Wepner, it is really a shot in the dark that he handles skilled and powerful fighters this much bigger than he was.

Foreman--Perhaps the best chance, but both Vitali and Lewis are better boxers. Foreman's best victims, Frazier, Norton, and Moorer, were tiny compared to the modern giants. Cooney was close in size, but he was totally washed up and not as good to begin with.

Again, I respect your opinion, BUT in my opinion, neither one of them were Ali when it comes to overall boxing skills.

[OLD FOGEY]

Again, I respect your opinion, BUT in my opinion, neither one of them were Ali when it comes to overall boxing skills.

Sugar Ray Robinson had better overall boxing skills than most or all heavyweight champions. Doesn't mean he beats them. Size matters.

[hermeneut]

"Terrell was no Lewis or Klitschko"

Henry. I agree.

You are arguing that speed overcomes size. I don't think so, or Billy Conn and Sugar Ray Robinson and Roy Jones would have been heavyweight champions. Speed only overcomes size to a degree.

Fantastic conversation, keep it up guys!

Isolating some agreed upon characteristic of a fighter like speed or even punching power seems to miss the point which is the process, the real life concrete give and take of a fight over many rounds, where every giving is meanwhile suffering with what has to be received. Speed suffers with the punches, power suffers against speed.

So I wonder about this classic matchup between Ali and the Rock, and ponder which of the two would be most likely to lose or have comprimised the very strong asset he possesses, ie, lightning speed and zip in Ali's case, steady and strong slugging power in Rock's.

In many way, I believe, these two typify what is best about boxing and it is no wonder we keep coming back to Marciano and how he might fare with the other greats like Ali, much to the amusement of some.

I, who have learned much from all of you, continue to think that if we ponder which of these styles will prevail in the course of a fight, on the one hand, quickness, speed, footwork, etc, vs, on the other hand, the determined slugging and accumulating power then one of the other will most likely have to be comprimised.

I don't know (who does and we should stop with the tone that this or that will definitely happen) but I'm inclined to think that the characteristic hehascup rightfully emphasizes in Ali (speed), will tend to be more compromised than Rock's power and aggression.

Didn't the Rock prove this with his amazing record? (Of course, I don't mean to deny both fighters didn't have other qualities, I am just settling on what many think are their major assets.) And didn't Ali suffer at the hands of fighters somewhat like Marciano?

Well, with one most important caveat, if the fight is not ended by a TKO for I don't think Ali is knocking the Rock out. This depending on where that time machine Mr. Bill vividly mentions lands us for this fight. Perhaps with more watchful do-gooders in the field of boxing in our time the fight is stopped and Ali wins by TKO as many of you think.

But meanwhlle, the Rock keeps slugging it out and surely, hehascup, you have to admit the Rock is going to somehow land some punches, inside or outside. Don't you think? Remember Ali saying that the old man Marciano hit hard, his arms hurt even after the sparring, and Ali himself said, who knew more about the game of boxing you or I know, that Rock may knock him down, and possibly beat him. But as the great fighter Ali was he thought, nevertheless, he would prevail. Of course he had the confidence, he was a fighter.

So not depending on abstractions like speed timed and measured on equipment, or even the vaunted punching power (maybe measured on scientific equipment, what a laugh!), we have the concrete reality, the fight, what will be a painful matchup between these two greats. Where I believe, I say once again, Marciano's assets, his accumulating power, are less likely to suffer over the long haul than Ali's speed and fantastic ability to move.

And it would take more than one match to decide it.

[hhascup]

Sugar Ray Robinson had better overall boxing skills than most or all heavyweight champions. Doesn't mean he beats them. Size matters.

I never said it didn't, all I am saying is that Ali with his boxing skills, chin, speed etc., would be very hard to beat for anyone. Size does matter, that's why I have a lot of big heavyweights beating Rocky. Rocky had a GREAT punch, BUT to land one against someone that weighs around 180 to 190 pounds, compared to the BIG heavyweights like Lewis and Klitschko, is a hold new ball game.

[hhascup]

Fantastic conversation, keep it up guys!

Isolating some agreed upon characteristic of a fighter like speed or even punching power seems to miss the point which is the process, the real life concrete give and take of a fight over many rounds, where every giving is meanwhile suffering with what has to be received. Speed suffers with the punches, power suffers against speed.

So I wonder about this classic matchup between Ali and the Rock, and ponder which of the two would be most likely to lose or have comprimised the very strong asset he possesses, ie, lightning speed and zip in Ali's case, steady and strong slugging power in Rock's.

In many way, I believe, these two typify what is best about boxing and it is no wonder we keep coming back to Marciano and how he might fare with the other greats like Ali, much to the amusement of some.

I, who have learned much from all of you, continue to think that if we ponder which of these styles will prevail in the course of a fight, on the one hand, quickness, speed, footwork, etc, vs, on the other hand, the determined slugging and accumulating power then one of the other will most likely have to be comprimised.

I don't know (who does and we should stop with the tone that this or that will definitely happen) but I'm inclined to think that the characteristic hehascup rightfully emphasizes in Ali (speed), will tend to be more compromised than Rock's power and aggression.

Didn't the Rock prove this with his amazing record? (Of course, I don't mean to deny both fighters didn't have other qualities, I am just settling on what many think are their major assets.) And didn't Ali suffer at the hands of fighters somewhat like Marciano?

Well, with one most important caveat, if the fight is not ended by a TKO for I don't think Ali is knocking the Rock out. This depending on where that time machine Mr. Bill vividly mentions lands us for this fight. Perhaps with more watchful do-gooders in the field of boxing in our time the fight is stopped and Ali wins by TKO as many of you think.

But meanwhlle, the Rock keeps slugging it out and surely, hehascup, you have to admit the Rock is going to somehow land some punches, inside or outside. Don't you think? Remember Ali saying that the old man Marciano hit hard, his arms hurt even after the sparring, and Ali himself said, who knew more about the game of boxing you or I know, that Rock may knock him down, and possibly beat him. But as the great fighter Ali was he thought, nevertheless, he would prevail. Of course he had the confidence, he was a fighter.

So not depending on abstractions like speed timed and measured on equipment, or even the vaunted punching power (maybe measured on scientific equipment, what a laugh!), we have the concrete reality, the fight, what will be a painful matchup between these two greats. Where I believe, I say once again, Marciano's assets, his accumulating power, are less likely to suffer over the long haul than Ali's speed and fantastic ability to move.

And it would take more than one match to decide it.


I agree with a lot of what your saying BUT if Ali could take punches from Foreman, Frazier, Liston, Lyle, Mac Foster, among others, he could take them from Rocky as well. Remember, Ali most likely had the Greatest chin or one of the Greatest chins in boxing history and Rocky only stopped 1 fighter that weighed over 200 pounds and was over 6 feet tall, that was rated in the top 10 when they fought, and that was against an aging Joe Louis.

[MRBILL]

Off Topic... But I just reviewed "Louis-Simon 2" from '42.... Abe Simon was tuff and rugged, but he lacked skills.... Simon was in the mold of a Tex Cobb or George Chuvalo; not a bad fighter, but lacking certain much needed skills and reflexes........Louis butchered Simon in the '42 rematch......

MR.BIL

[Mendoza]

Honestly Henry,

I respect the hell out of you and your opinion, but for you to buy into that Bull is insane. Marciano had a 68" reach, HE HAD HUGE LEVAGERE on the inside with his short arms. Marciano both technically and efficiency was one of the BEST inside fighters we have ever seen on film, and his 68" reach was the reason why. HUGE LEVERAGE advantage. I dont care what Marciano said, film tells a different story than his choice of words

Yes, lets look at the films. Did Marciano deliver a short punch KO, or were they mostly from a distance? The Ko's over Walcott, Layne, Louis, and others were all over hand rights or wind up shots from a distance, not short punches delivered from the inside.

Regarding what Marciano said, I have heard him comment on his own fights many times. Rocky is both insightful, honest, and modest. And Rocky knew boxing. I would not doubt his words in print.

Its a pity a plane crash ended his life, because I believe Marciano could have made an excellent commentator.

[MRBILL]

Yes, lets look at the films. Did Marciano deliver a short punch KO, or were they mostly from a distance? The Ko's over Walcott, Layne, Louis, and others were all over hand rights or wind up shots from a distance, not short punches delivered from the inside.

Regarding what Marciano said, I have heard him comment on his own fights many times. Rocky is both insightful, honest, and modest. And Rocky knew boxing. I would not doubt his words in print.

Its a pity a plane crash ended his life, because I believe Marciano could have made an excellent commentator.

I hated that heavy New England accent he had....... Kinda' like the Kennedy's....... Them accents drive me nuts.........
:patsch

MR.BILL

[hhascup]

Yes, lets look at the films. Did Marciano deliver a short punch KO, or were they mostly from a distance? The Ko's over Walcott, Layne, Louis, and others were all over hand rights or wind up shots from a distance, not short punches delivered from the inside.

Regarding what Marciano said, I have heard him comment on his own fights many times. Rocky is both insightful, honest, and modest. And Rocky knew boxing. I would not doubt his words in print.

Its a pity a plane crash ended his life, because I believe Marciano could have made an excellent commentator.

He was a commentator and I liked him BUT for some reason they didn't use him very much. On the "Main Events" TV, which he hosted, was excellent.

[Mendoza]

I wouldn't be that certain that the 6' 3" Ali outjabs the taller Lewis and the much taller Klitschko. The foot speed will be negated by the sheer height of someone like Klitschko. Vitali wouldn't have to chase after him. He will be able to reach him from the outside. Most of Ali's much shorter opponents couldn't do that.

Lewis fought Holyfield and Holyfield is much closer to Ali than any of Ali's opponents are to Lewis or Vitali.

Ali had trouble with good jabbers at all stages of his career when he was matched vs a good jabber with the lone exception being Liston. Jones, Norton, Young, Lyle, and Holmes are examples of fighters who jab scored on the outside vs Ali.

Some shorter opponents did land on Ali a bit from the outside. Mildenberger had some success vs a prime Ali on the outside, and he was maybe 6' 195 pounds.

The more I watch Ali, the more I think he's over rated in a boxing skill sense, and under rated in toughness/ mental fortitude.

But back to Marciano and Norton. This is a very intersting thread. I'm learning here. Keep the good posts comming.

[hhascup]

I hated that heavy New England accent he had....... Kinda' like the Kennedy's....... Them accents drive me nuts.........
:patsch

MR.BILL


See, that's one of the things I liked about him.

[Mendoza]

He was a commentator and I liked him BUT for some reason they didn't use him very much. On the "Main Events" TV, which he hosted, was excellent.

I agree 100%. Why didn't they use Rocky more? Maybe it was a limited network tv type of thing. In those days there were only a few TV channels. Perhaps Don Dunphy ( spelling ) had all the big fights?

[OLD FOGEY]

I never said it didn't, all I am saying is that Ali with his boxing skills, chin, speed etc., would be very hard to beat for anyone. Size does matter, that's why I have a lot of big heavyweights beating Rocky. Rocky had a GREAT punch, BUT to land one against someone that weighs around 180 to 190 pounds, compared to the BIG heavyweights like Lewis and Klitschko, is a hold new ball game.

I might be misinterpreting this slightly, but

1. If you mean Marciano would have a lot more difficulty getting a big punch over against Lewis and Klitschko versus a 190 lber. I agree.

2. If you mean the big men can take a punch better, I don't know about that. The fact is that Dempsey, Louis, and Marciano never ran into anyone who was too big to be knocked out and indeed all did better against the big men of their eras than their smaller opponents. Louis and Dempsey slaughtered 245 to 260 lb men. Marciano didn't beat a giant of any quality, but he did knock out all five opponents he fought over 210 lbs, three over 220. I think if there had been a half-way decent 250 lber around like Simon he would probably have stopped him.

[Dempsey1238]

Yes, lets look at the films. Did Marciano deliver a short punch KO, or were they mostly from a distance? The Ko's over Walcott, Layne, Louis, and others were all over hand rights or wind up shots from a distance, not short punches delivered from the inside.

Regarding what Marciano said, I have heard him comment on his own fights many times. Rocky is both insightful, honest, and modest. And Rocky knew boxing. I would not doubt his words in print.

Its a pity a plane crash ended his life, because I believe Marciano could have made an excellent commentator.

The Walcott ko was a short 6 inch punch.
It was the uppercut that did Louis in, the over head right when Joe was on the ropes was there to finish the job.
Layne was a long ko punch. But what about the little room he needed for Charles or Moore?

[hhascup]

I might be misinterpreting this slightly, but

1. If you mean Marciano would have a lot more difficulty getting a big punch over against Lewis and Klitschko versus a 190 lber. I agree.

2. If you mean the big men can take a punch better, I don't know about that. The fact is that Dempsey, Louis, and Marciano never ran into anyone who was too big to be knocked out and indeed all did better against the big men of their eras than their smaller opponents. Louis and Dempsey slaughtered 245 to 260 lb men. Marciano didn't beat a giant of any quality, but he did knock out all five opponents he fought over 210 lbs, three over 220. I think if there had been a half-way decent 250 lber around like Simon he would probably have stopped him.

Maybe, BUT Ted Lowry went the distance twice with Rocky, and he a small heavyweight. I talked to Ted several times over the last several years and he told me that he was a last minute sub., in the their 2nd match. Even Cockell took him deep.

Some of the Greatest punchers in history, couldn't go up in weight and stop the bigger boys, such was the case with Bob Foster. I just think it would be much harder to stop a great big man then a great little man.

[MRBILL]

I agree 100%. Why didn't they use Rocky more? Maybe it was a limited network tv type of thing. In those days there were only a few TV channels. Perhaps Don Dunphy ( spelling ) had all the big fights?

Accents can be the life and death of you as an announcer.......:yep

Heavy New England and Deep Southern accents do NOT go over well on national TV.... Truth to that, as well.........:D

MR.BILL:deal

[hhascup]

The Walcott ko was a short 6 inch punch.
It was the uppercut that did Louis in, the over head right when Joe was on the ropes was there to finish the job.
Layne was a long ko punch. But what about the little room he needed for Charles or Moore?


What ruler are you using?

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[MRBILL]

Height and reach on the opponent does affect a boxer with speed and a snappy jab effectiveness........... Ray Leonard was a demon in shoes when he was the taller or same size man.... But when Ray fought "Hearns & Lalonde," his defense and jab seemed somewhat neutralized and offset........ Yes, he still got the job done, but he struggled.....

I can picture Ali and Holmes having BIG problems with dudes like "Lewis & Klit."

MR.BILL

[hhascup]

Height and reach on the opponent does effect a boxer with speed and a snappy jab effectiveness........... Ray Leonard was a demon in shoes when he was the taller or same size man.... But when Ray fought "Hearns & Lalonde," his defense and jab seemed somewhat neutralized and offset........ Yes, he still got the job done, but he struggled.....

I can picture Ali and Holmes having BIG problems with dudes like "Lewis & Klit."

MR.BILL


I never said he wouldn't have trouble, because I think he would, BUT he would find someway to win.

[MRBILL]

I never said he wouldn't have trouble, because I think he would, BUT he would find someway to win.

I'll buy that...

MR.BILL:D

[MRBILL]

LOOK! I am a PROUD Ali & Holmes nut-hugger..... Them two walk on water with me....

MR.BILL

[SuzieQ49]

Give Marciano credit for what he did in his own era but let's not get carried away here. If we dropped Rock's opponents smack dab in the late 60's-early 70's they would be brutalized. Walcott and Moore would be the only ones that would be competitive. Matthews and Cockell would be annihillated by the likes of Liston, Foreman and smokin' Joe. Charles was a light heavy albeit a great one. He could win a belt in that division in the 60's-70's but not at HW. Rocky fought in an era when heavyweights were quite a bit smaller than heavies of later years. Hell most of Marciano's best opponents were blown up middleweights or light heavyweights. Nothing like the big athletic heavyweights that would come later on, Ali being the best example of course. I'm a monster Marciano fan but even I have to be realistic here. It's not his weight that would be detrimental. I'm sure Rocky could hurt anyone but it's his overall dimensions(Height and reach) along with his relative lack of speed and style that would do him in. He would just have too hard a time getting close enough to do any real damage. That 69" reach would be inneffective against a bigger and faster moving HW with a long reach and a good jab ala Ali, Holmes, Foreman(Yes Foreman) Lewis and the Douglas that beat Tyson. He would be eating leather all night just trying to close the gap. Like I've said before, these men would have the advantage of landing thier shots from far away and then getting out of there before Marciano counters. All of Marciano's opponents were there to be hit. Ali, Holmes, Lewis, Bowe et al wouldn't be. And while Rocky could punch, hitting a 175-190lb man isn't quite the same as hitting a 220lb man, assuming of course that he's good. One or two shots from Rocky aren't going to KO Ali or Foreman or Holmes period. So how else is he going to win, outbox them with his exceptional speed? outjab them from a distance. The fact is that as the 60's and 70's came along athletes in all sports got bigger and faster and more athletic and boxing was no different. Marciano is an all time great who was the best HW of his era. I feel it's a bit over the top however to say that he would easily defeat the HW's of subsequent eras. Men who were quite a bit larger and often times faster than the type of opponent Rocky was used to fighting.
Its my hope that both you and my buddy Henry address each of my posts

Give Marciano credit for what he did in his own era but let's not get carried away here


He gets plenty of credit here. The credit he does not get enough of is his capabilities of being succesful in OTHER eras


If we dropped Rock's opponents smack dab in the late 60's-early 70's they would be brutalized.

Thats highly questionable. For one, One of Marcianos victims, Archie Moore, was a top 10 heavyweight contender all the way through 1963 at age 45! so he automatically qualifies as a shoe in. 2ndly, If past there prime 1950s boxers like Patterson, Folley, Machen could be succesful enough to earn title shots in the late 1960s past there best days and if blown up middleweight jimmy ellis had enough to be WBA champion during that time, It is safe to say top master technician stylists like Jersey Joe Walcott and Ezzard Charles could defintley compete at the highest level of that era and pick up a scrap of the belt. 3rdly, If fighters like Chuck Wepner and Scott Ledoux could crack the top 10 in the 1970s, I am more than 100% sure Yound Studs like both Rex Layne and Roland Lastarza could have cracked the top 10 in the 1970s and been very competitive. If 37 year old Patterson could crack the top 10 in the early 1970s, I have no doubt a much bigger more powerful 37 year old Joe Louis could crack the top 10 in the 70s too.


Rocky fought in an era when heavyweights were quite a bit smaller than heavies of later years.


I wouldn't say that. Marciano did fight alot of heavyweights in the 190lb range, but there were alot of well sized top rated heavyweights of that era. 6'2 215lb Joe Louis, 6'3 215lb Nino Valdes, 6'2 215lb Bob Baker, 6'3 200lb Earl Walls, 7'2 335lb Ewart Potgeiter, 6'2 210lb Heinz Neuhas, 6'3 210lb James J Parker, 6'3 205lb John Holman, 6'3 200lb Coley Wallace, 6'3 195lb 80" reach Hurricane Jackson..... All(except Potgeiter who was forced to retire early) were men who were in the Ring Magazine top 10 during Marciano's era.

Hell most of Marciano's best opponents were blown up middleweights or light heavyweights

By your definition, Vitali Klitschko lost to a blown up supermiddleweight, Larry Holmes twice lost to a lightheavyweight, Sonny Liston lost to a lightheavyweight journeyman, George Foreman was taken 20 rounds by a lightheavyweight, and Muhammad Ali was lucky to escape with a win over a lightheavyweight in 1963. All of Marcianos best opponents were well above 180lb when they fought him. I don't think its fair to use the "middleweights/light heavyweights level" without applying the same standard to other champions.

Nothing like the big athletic heavyweights that would come later on

What big athletic heayvweights are you talking about? Because I have seen alot of fat overweight Huff and Puff "big" heavyweights of the past 10 years I would not call athletic. I would also argue that there is only so athletic a 6'5 240lb man can get, I believe most of marcianos top opponents possess more athletiscm than most 6'5 240lbers through history. You might say Lennox Lewis and Riddick Bowe, but how many other men that size through history possessed even close to the abilities those two had? Maybe Zero.

I'm a monster Marciano fan but even I have to be realistic here


I'm a Marciano fan too, and I am being realistic too. you need to go check out the tape against and watch more closely, I personally think the best version of Marciano came against Louis, Layne, and Walcott. Maybe that will help.

I'm sure Rocky could hurt anyone but it's his overall dimensions(Height and reach) along with his relative lack of speed and style that would do him in.



This is where we disagree strongly. First of all, Rocky at 5'11 was no shorter than Mike Tyson who had alot of success fighting in a Tall 1980s era, not comparing the two skills levels but I am comparing the height issue since that is what we are discussing. I think Marciano's lack of height and reach COMBINED with his style that would be very helpful fighting a man much taller. Charlie Goldman taught rocky, if your short we make you might shorter. Thats exactley what he did. He taught Rocky to get low in a crouch with his hands high, and Rock a very athletic guy developed a keen ability to roll his torso around at all unpredictable oncopyable angles and what made him special was while he was down there in the crouch he was very dangerous because he could leap up at any moment and go on the offensive...making him a very difficult fighter to hit with a clean punch when those 6'4 fighters had to bend down and punch all the way down, it is very ackward and unpleasant for them..it leaves them off balance and open for counters.

He would just have too hard a time getting close enough to do any real damage.

Disagree. Marciano was very good at cutting off the ring. He knew how to cut off angles, he was very mechanical the way he slowly but surely cut his opponents air supply. Rocky knew how to work his crouch to get in close, and he would weave duck slip under punches and slowly creep his way in...not to mention Rocky DID have a good enough chin where he could afford to take a punch or two if needed to get in close quarters...

Speed is debatable, but I think more important attributes than speed against bigger men is Stamina and Strength. Rocky rates top at both categories...Most big men in history simply did not have the stamina or mental toughness to fight 15 excrutiating rounds with Marciano without quitting on themselves somewhere during the fight. Most big men did not have the workrate to match Marciano's. Rocky had the ability to break big men, he would pound away everywhere arms head body shoulders, these shots would have signifigant effect as the fight grew on...and of course rocky always had the suzy Q to end things early if landed flush. Strength is a big deal here, more important than speed with Rockys style. Archie Moore who fought 23 opponents above 200lb said Rocky was far and away the strongest hes ever faced. If your not strong enough, then you are going to get worn down by the big men in the clinches...but rocky had super human strength for his size...and he had the strength to not get pushed around by 220lbers. So imagine a style where you a 220lb powerful but flawed fighter has to fight a 185lb Human Windmill who you know his strong enough not to get controlled in clinches, whom you know is very ackward and difficult to hit with a clean punch in his crouch, whom you know hits hard enough to knock you out with one punch, whom you know has the chin to take a couple of your big bombs, and whom you know has the stamina and workrate to punch non stop for 15 rounds....That is a very tough fight for anyone.

I would also like to add against a man like lennox lewis, rocky would get the use of modern supplements/ weight training/nutrition and I suspect with proper training Rocky would be able to develop his fast twitch fiber muscles more, allowing himself more explosiveness in the speed of his punches the way Tyson had. You get this from doing power or explosive type weight lifts.

[SuzieQ49]

That 69" reach would be inneffective against a bigger and faster moving HW with a long reach and a good jab ala Ali, Holmes, Foreman(Yes Foreman) Lewis and the Douglas that beat Tyson

I really don't think reach would be a big deal....Mike Tyson had a 71" reach just 2" more, yet he had no trouble landing flush on numerous talented 6'5 opponents. For what its worth, the most brutal knockout Marciano ever laid on an opponent knocking him into a coma was when he fought Young Prospect 6'4 Carmine Vingo. There is a brief clip on youtube of Marciano-Vingo I sent to DMT sometime ago and he uploaded it. Vingo obviosely does not compare to some of the later 6'4 champions, but it does show Marciano has the ability to land on very tall heavyweights and do QUITE A BIT OF DAMAGE.

, Holmes, Foreman(Yes Foreman) Lewis and the Douglas that beat Tyson

But these guys had there own stylistic problems. Holmes was a sucker for right hands his whole career, had a bad habit of trying to brawl his way out of trouble when hurt, and was knocked out by 5'11 Nick Wells and 5'11 Mike Tyson both by right hands

Muhammad Ali was taken near death 3 times by 5'11 Swarmer Joe Frazier

If foreman could not kayo you by round 5, he was going to lose especially against a fighter would could make you tire yourself out mentally and physically like the Rock.

Buster Douglas showed up out of shape all the time, and cruiserweight non big puncher Holyfield knocked Douglas out with 1 punch


Lennox Lewis was twice knocked out by one punch by two B level heavyweights, and never proved his recup powers when under major distress

He would be eating leather all night just trying to close the gap.


You see, I dont think so. Rocky Marciano was very adapt and well schooled on dealing with Jabs. Rocky knew how to parry very well with his right hand protecting his left cheeck, he would get low in his crouch and roll around with his torso and its alot harder in that crouch for those tall jabbers to bend down and hit him there, its ackward as hell for a holmes who loved to fight tall fighters..... Also I don't care how past his prime Joe louis was in 1951, He was still 6'2 and still had a very good jab in any era regardless of age. It was sharp, powerful, and accurate. It was pretty much the reason why he beat all those contenders in his comeback. I thought Rocky did a very good job in this fight slipping Louis jab multiple times, and even though he did get busted up with it a little, he did not let it become a major factor dictating the fight. Jersey Joe Walcott Rex Layne*75 reach) and Archie Moore(78 reach) all had very good jabs and rocky showed a very good slip ratio in these fights....if anything rocky was very proven vs good jabbers in his career, and even though guys like holmes ali and lennox were a step above I think he showed he was capable of not letting these guys control him with there jabs. Just like Marcianos opponents, it seems you fell in the trap of thinking marcianos easy to hit with a jab, then they get in the ring with him and all of a sudden hes not so easy to hit cleanly anymore, even by the best sharpshooters this sport has ever seen.

Muhammad Ali who sparred with a 46 year old Rocky Marciano told Angelo Dundee in PRIVATE behind closed doors "Ange this guys alot harder to hit with a jab than he looks." Now Ali if anything never sugar coated anything, I really do believe Ali was honest when he said this, and I trust Muhammad's view.

Like I've said before, these men would have the advantage of landing thier shots from far away and then getting out of there before Marciano counters.

I disagree for reasons stated above. Marciano knew how to use his leverage, he knew how to work inside and find his leverage, and once he was in close, he had the full advantage become of his dimensions and extra leverage.

All of Marciano's opponents were there to be hit.

Since when? Jersey Joe Walcott after an aggresive first 3 rounds, chose to stick move and jab during the mid rounds and in the dreadful 13th round you could see him backpedaling until the final punch. Archie Moore one of the better technicians of all time was certainly not there to be hit with his shoulder rolls, upperboddy movement. Roland Lastarza certainly was not there to be hit behind his high gaurded defensive style and rocky had to break through that gaurd to get in, and Ezzard Charles fought a boxing counterpunching style early in the first fight and it wasnt until rocky started wearing him down did Charles become there to bit hit by round 6, but early on charles was on his toes countering with sharp right hands.

Ali, Holmes, Lewis, Bowe et al wouldn't be

Riddick Bowe certainly would be. Bowe had leaky defense, Holyfield a former cruiserweight teed off on him. Bowe loved to fight on the inside and though he was very good at it, this might be his demise against Marciano. Ali wasnt there to be hit, you got that right, but then again George Chuvalo was able to work in close and pound away enough at ali that he made him piss blood, Larry Holmes would ALWAYS be there to be hit by right hands, He never EVER escaped this problem and in practically every one of his big title fights he was hit by big right hands.

And while Rocky could punch, hitting a 175-190lb man isn't quite the same as hitting a 220lb man

Are you sure? when is it proven that a 220lb has a better chin than a 190lb man? For the record, Marcianos record against men above 200lb is 11-0 with 11 knockouts.

One or two shots from Rocky aren't going to KO Ali or Foreman or Holmes period

We don't know for sure, but I also suspect that Holmes or Ali simply would not be able to keep Rocky on the end of a jab for 15 rounds without rocky getting in close or troubling him once. Don't forget, if Rocky didn't knock you out with 1 or 2 punches(which he was very capable of doing) he would just hammer away at you with 80-100 power punches a round breaking your body down physically and mentally.


So how else is he going to win, outbox them with his exceptional speed? outjab them from a distance. .

Rocky is a puncher/Swarmer which means he has alot of different ways of Winning. He can knock you out with one punch, he can break you down with a swarm of punches stopping you, or he can outwork you with effective aggresion and higher volume of punches and win on the judges cards.

It depends on the style. against a holmes, he will attempt to work inside and hurt larry and outswarm and outslug larry capitilizing on larrys major flaws, against a foreman he will have to some punishment early in order to outlast him and if the 6th round shows up then Marciano knows hes in position to win. Against an Ali, he will attempt to outswarm him and win on points with effective aggresion, against a bowe he will try to outwork him outslug him on the inside and break him down, against a lennox he will try attack the body and setup a big sunday Roundhouse Right hand Home run shot, against a tyson he will attempt to bully him back and be rough and physical on the inside with him. Will it work out everytime? No, but Rocky will have success and defintley beat some of these men.

The fact is that as the 60's and 70's came along athletes in all sports got bigger and faster and more athletic and boxing was no different

Not true. I believe Modern Boxing style started around the 1940s, Watch the film closely. Stances and basic fundamentals in the 1940s were started by some boxers during that era that happened to be the same stance and basic fundamentals fighters fought with in the modern era...Boxing made a big leap in the 1940s, and by the 50s pretty much everyone fought that way.

I dont see what your obbsession with the 60s is. PLENTY of 1950s heavyweights Liston, Patterson, Machen, Folley, Williams, Moore ALL had quite a bit success while over the hill in the mid 1960s.

. Marciano is an all time great who was the best HW of his era. I feel it's a bit over the top however to say that he would easily defeat the HW's of subsequent eras.

I wouldn't say so, but its a matter of opinion

Men who were quite a bit larger and often times faster than the type of opponent Rocky was used to fighting

I don't think many 220lbers were faster than a Walcott, Charles or Moore...Except Maybe Ali. I think Rocky showed he was very capable of fighting competitivley with 220lb ATG fighters.

[OLD FOGEY]

Maybe, BUT Ted Lowry went the distance twice with Rocky, and he a small heavyweight. I talked to Ted several times over the last several years and he told me that he was a last minute sub., in the their 2nd match. Even Cockell took him deep.

Some of the Greatest punchers in history, couldn't go up in weight and stop the bigger boys, such was the case with Bob Foster. I just think it would be much harder to stop a great big man then a great little man.

"much harder to stop a great big man than a great little man"

The 230 or more pounders of history were not great. Foster could not beat big men, but Langford, Dempsey, Louis, Satterfield, Moore, etc could. All we know about Marciano is that he knocked out every 200 plus pounder he fought, including Louis, and convincingly. My opinion is Marciano punched as hard for his size as anyone.

And don't get me wrong. I think Lewis and Vitali would be too big for Marciano. I think he could stop Simon (and also Willard and Carnera). These giants were more defined by big than by great or even good.

As for Ted Lowry, he hardly proves that big heavyweights take punches better. The opposite, in fact. I don't think you can carry one opponent too far. Look at Sonny Liston going the distance twice with Burt Whitehurst.

[SuzieQ49]

Janitor, did I hear you say You don't have Marciano in your top 10 all time heavyweight head to head list yet you have evander holyfield in there? I do think you vastly overrate Vitali Klitschkko. He quit on his stool vs a feather fisted cruiserweight with 2 rounds to go when all he neeeded to do was hold him off with 1 arm and and byrd was no threat to hurt him. ...Other fighters have fought 12 round fights and lasted the ditance with the same exact injury...if Vitali can't fight through the pain of 2 rounds vs harmless opponent, then how is he going to react if put through deep waters late in the fight by a Pitbull like Rocky?

[hhascup]

I really don't think reach would be a big deal....Mike Tyson had a 71" reach just 2" more, yet he had no trouble landing flush on numerous talented 6'5 opponents. For what its worth, the most brutal knockout Marciano ever laid on an opponent knocking him into a coma was when he fought Young Prospect 6'4 Carmine Vingo. There is a brief clip on youtube of Marciano-Vingo I sent to DMT sometime ago and he uploaded it. Vingo obviosely does not compare to some of the later 6'4 champions, but it does show Marciano has the ability to land on very tall heavyweights and do QUITE A BIT OF DAMAGE.



But these guys had there own stylistic problems. Holmes was a sucker for right hands his whole career, had a bad habit of trying to brawl his way out of trouble when hurt, and was knocked out by 5'11 Nick Wells and 5'11 Mike Tyson both by right hands

Muhammad Ali was taken near death 3 times by 5'11 Swarmer Joe Frazier

If foreman could not kayo you by round 5, he was going to lose especially against a fighter would could make you tire yourself out mentally and physically like the Rock.

Buster Douglas showed up out of shape all the time, and cruiserweight non big puncher Holyfield knocked Douglas out with 1 punch


Lennox Lewis was twice knocked out by one punch by two B level heavyweights, and never proved his recup powers when under major distress




You see, I dont think so. Rocky Marciano was very adapt and well schooled on dealing with Jabs. Rocky knew how to parry very well with his right hand protecting his left cheeck, he would get low in his crouch and roll around with his torso and its alot harder in that crouch for those tall jabbers to bend down and hit him there, its ackward as hell for a holmes who loved to fight tall fighters..... Also I don't care how past his prime Joe louis was in 1951, He was still 6'2 and still had a very good jab in any era regardless of age. It was sharp, powerful, and accurate. It was pretty much the reason why he beat all those contenders in his comeback. I thought Rocky did a very good job in this fight slipping Louis jab multiple times, and even though he did get busted up with it a little, he did not let it become a major factor dictating the fight. Jersey Joe Walcott Rex Layne*75 reach) and Archie Moore(78 reach) all had very good jabs and rocky showed a very good slip ratio in these fights....if anything rocky was very proven vs good jabbers in his career, and even though guys like holmes ali and lennox were a step above I think he showed he was capable of not letting these guys control him with there jabs. Just like Marcianos opponents, it seems you fell in the trap of thinking marcianos easy to hit with a jab, then they get in the ring with him and all of a sudden hes not so easy to hit cleanly anymore, even by the best sharpshooters this sport has ever seen.

Muhammad Ali who sparred with a 46 year old Rocky Marciano told Angelo Dundee in PRIVATE behind closed doors "Ange this guys alot harder to hit with a jab than he looks." Now Ali if anything never sugar coated anything, I really do believe Ali was honest when he said this, and I trust Muhammad's view.



I disagree for reasons stated above. Marciano knew how to use his leverage, he knew how to work inside and find his leverage, and once he was in close, he had the full advantage become of his dimensions and extra leverage.



Since when? Jersey Joe Walcott after an aggresive first 3 rounds, chose to stick move and jab during the mid rounds and in the dreadful 13th round you could see him backpedaling until the final punch. Archie Moore one of the better technicians of all time was certainly not there to be hit with his shoulder rolls, upperboddy movement. Roland Lastarza certainly was not there to be hit behind his high gaurded defensive style and rocky had to break through that gaurd to get in, and Ezzard Charles fought a boxing counterpunching style early in the first fight and it wasnt until rocky started wearing him down did Charles become there to bit hit by round 6, but early on charles was on his toes countering with sharp right hands.



Riddick Bowe certainly would be. Bowe had leaky defense, Holyfield a former cruiserweight teed off on him. Bowe loved to fight on the inside and though he was very good at it, this might be his demise against Marciano. Ali wasnt there to be hit, you got that right, but then again George Chuvalo was able to work in close and pound away enough at ali that he made him piss blood, Larry Holmes would ALWAYS be there to be hit by right hands, He never EVER escaped this problem and in practically every one of his big title fights he was hit by big right hands.



Are you sure? when is it proven that a 220lb has a better chin than a 190lb man? For the record, Marcianos record against men above 200lb is 11-0 with 11 knockouts.



We don't know for sure, but I also suspect that Holmes or Ali simply would not be able to keep Rocky on the end of a jab for 15 rounds without rocky getting in close or troubling him once. Don't forget, if Rocky didn't knock you out with 1 or 2 punches(which he was very capable of doing) he would just hammer away at you with 80-100 power punches a round breaking your body down physically and mentally.




Rocky is a puncher/Swarmer which means he has alot of different ways of Winning. He can knock you out with one punch, he can break you down with a swarm of punches stopping you, or he can outwork you with effective aggresion and higher volume of punches and win on the judges cards.

It depends on the style. against a holmes, he will attempt to work inside and hurt larry and outswarm and outslug larry capitilizing on larrys major flaws, against a foreman he will have to some punishment early in order to outlast him and if the 6th round shows up then Marciano knows hes in position to win. Against an Ali, he will attempt to outswarm him and win on points with effective aggresion, against a bowe he will try to outwork him outslug him on the inside and break him down, against a lennox he will try attack the body and setup a big sunday Roundhouse Right hand Home run shot, against a tyson he will attempt to bully him back and be rough and physical on the inside with him. Will it work out everytime? No, but Rocky will have success and defintley beat some of these men.



Not true. I believe Modern Boxing style started around the 1940s, Watch the film closely. Stances and basic fundamentals in the 1940s were started by some boxers during that era that happened to be the same stance and basic fundamentals fighters fought with in the modern era...Boxing made a big leap in the 1940s, and by the 50s pretty much everyone fought that way.

I dont see what your obbsession with the 60s is. PLENTY of 1950s heavyweights Liston, Patterson, Machen, Folley, Williams, Moore ALL had quite a bit success while over the hill in the mid 1960s.



I wouldn't say so, but its a matter of opinion



I don't think many 220lbers were faster than a Walcott, Charles or Moore...Except Maybe Ali. I think Rocky showed he was very capable of fighting competitivley with 220lb ATG fighters.


You make some Great points BUT I am still in Florida on vacation and it would take too long to answer each one right now.

[hhascup]

"much harder to stop a great big man than a great little man"

The 230 or more pounders of history were not great. Foster could not beat big men, but Langford, Dempsey, Louis, Satterfield, Moore, etc could. All we know about Marciano is that he knocked out every 200 plus pounder he fought, including Louis, and convincingly. My opinion is Marciano punched as hard for his size as anyone.

And don't get me wrong. I think Lewis and Vitali would be too big for Marciano. I think he could stop Simon (and also Willard and Carnera). These giants were more defined by big than by great or even good.

As for Ted Lowry, he hardly proves that big heavyweights take punches better. The opposite, in fact. I don't think you can carry one opponent too far. Look at Sonny Liston going the distance twice with Burt Whitehurst.

Foster was just an example. I agree that Rocky would stop Simon, Willard and Carnera too, BUT wouldn't stop guys like Ali or Holmes.

When he stopped Vingo, Vingo was only 2 days past his 20th birthday and he never fought a bout that was scheduled for more then 6 rounds before he fought Rocky, PLUS he only had 1 KO in his last 7 bouts and that was to a boxer making his pro debut.

[SuzieQ49]

When he stopped Vingo, Vingo was only 2 days past his 20th birthday and he never fought a bout that was scheduled for more then 6 rounds before he fought Rocky, PLUS he only had 1 KO in his last 7 bouts and that was to a boxer making his pro debut.


Henry,

I don't think its fair to primarily rely on Vingos Record(which boxrec states at a very good 16-1 with lone loss to top prospect Joe Lindsay by close decision). I used to have a emailed newspaper clip of Marciano-Vingo fight(I think I lost it unfortunetley) and they described Vingo's record at closer to 25-3 I believe. Boxrec still may not have found all of Vingo's bouts yet, but maybe they have.

Though Vingo had not fought past 6 rounders, he was still considered one of the contries best young prospects(along with Joe Lindsay Bob Baker and Clarence Henry) at 6'4 195lb 20 years old who was good enough to be fighting at the Garden and whom his handlers most likely expected to grow out to a solid 220lb by age 25 and be a threat to the heavyweight champion with his size, punching power, and skills. Charlie Goldman specifully told Rocky before the fight that Vingo could punch very hard, and Reg Gutteridge a marciano critic, suprisingly said that Carmine Vingo was an extremley hard hitter.

I think this rates as a good win for a Young Rocky. When you look at his record you see alot of old names Walcott, Louis, Moore, Charles that he gets critisized for because of age....and this win completled defied the norm, because it was a win over a YOUNG hot shot 6'4 Prospect(which marciano mostly gets critisized for failing to facing Young/Tall/Prospect) in a fearsome slugfest that both men got in there licks and the winner of this fight was promised to get a main even against Roland Lastarza in the Garden next. Vingo was no experienced world class contender, but he was another James Shueler, Henry Snow Flakes...All top young prospects with huge potential having there career cut short.

[hhascup]

Henry,

I don't think its fair to primarily rely on Vingos Record(which boxrec states at a very good 16-1 with lone loss to top prospect Joe Lindsay by close decision). I used to have a emailed newspaper clip of Marciano-Vingo fight(I think I lost it unfortunetley) and they described Vingo's record at closer to 25-3 I believe. Boxrec still may not have found all of Vingo's bouts yet, but maybe they have.

Though Vingo had not fought past 6 rounders, he was still considered one of the contries best young prospects(along with Joe Lindsay Bob Baker and Clarence Henry) at 6'4 195lb 20 years old who was good enough to be fighting at the Garden and whom his handlers most likely expected to grow out to a solid 220lb by age 25 and be a threat to the heavyweight champion with his size, punching power, and skills. Charlie Goldman specifully told Rocky before the fight that Vingo could punch very hard, and Reg Gutteridge a marciano critic, suprisingly said that Carmine Vingo was an extremley hard hitter.

I think this rates as a good win for a Young Rocky. When you look at his record you see alot of old names Walcott, Louis, Moore, Charles that he gets critisized for because of age....and this win completled defied the norm, because it was a win over a YOUNG hot shot 6'4 Prospect(which marciano mostly gets critisized for failing to facing Young/Tall/Prospect) in a fearsome slugfest that both men got in there licks and the winner of this fight was promised to get a main even against Roland Lastarza in the Garden next. Vingo was no experienced world class contender, but he was another James Shueler, Henry Snow Flakes...All top young prospects with huge potential having there career cut short.

I just think that Vingo was rushed a little. He never fought anyone that was close to Rocky's class. With only 7 KO's in a career of 18, and 1 out of his last 8, doesn't really say that he was a Great puncher. He should have never fought Rocky at that early stage of his career. As far as Snowflakes goes, he was by far a better fighter then Vingo.

[Bummy Davis]

Maybe, BUT Ted Lowry went the distance twice with Rocky, and he a small heavyweight. I talked to Ted several times over the last several years and he told me that he was a last minute sub., in the their 2nd match. Even Cockell took him deep.

Some of the Greatest punchers in history, couldn't go up in weight and stop the bigger boys, such was the case with Bob Foster. I just think it would be much harder to stop a great big man then a great little man.

Levi Billups who was 6 ft. and not so well conditioned went the distance with Lennox Lewis and a few fight after Michael Moorer Ko'd him in 3, he was also Ko'd in 1 by Orlin Norris and in 2 by Jeremy Williams and 1 by Corrie Sanders...he was able to survive against Lewis should that reflect on Lennox's all time power...also Lewis had 30 lbs on Zelco Marovic and could not stop him (styles make fights but neither of these men came close to winning.

Suprised that you would compare Bob Foster who was notorious frail against Heavys ( and was Smoked against smallish Frazier in 2) with Marciano....The better men of Marciano's era dominated the bigger men but Foster was Ko'd by small Doug Jones who gave Ali (big for that time fits)

As for Ted Lowry he was a durable man who also went the distance with Archie Moore and Jimmy Bivens( Lowrey was stopped 2 times, Harry "Kid Matthews and Lee Q Murry in his career. In his 1st fight with Rocky Marciano was 3 lbs heavier than Tedd at 180 (Rocky's 20th pro fight)and 6 lbs heavier for the next ...Lowry was also a sparring partner and was a gym rat so he was always in condition and was a surviver but Marciano beat him 2 times so to say he was called in with 2 weeks notice, so what ,he was always fit.

Do you really think Cockell had Rocky in deep...Rocky bounced him all over the ring...You call that DEEP come on...Peralta had Foreman deep, Mercer had Lewis Deep, Jones had Ali deep

[hhascup]

Levi Billups who was 6 ft. and not so well conditioned went the distance with Lennox Lewis and a few fight after Michael Moorer Ko'd him in 3, he was also Ko'd in 1 by Orlin Norris and in 2 by Jeremy Williams and 1 by Corrie Sanders...he was able to survive against Lewis should that reflect on Lennox's all time power...also Lewis had 30 lbs on Zelco Marovic and could not stop him (styles make fights but neither of these men came close to winning.

Suprised that you would compare Bob Foster who was notorious frail against Heavys ( and was Smoked against smallish Frazier in 2) with Marciano....The better men of Marciano's era dominated the bigger men but Foster was Ko'd by small Doug Jones who gave Ali (big for that time fits)

As for Ted Lowry he was a durable man who also went the distance with Archie Moore and Jimmy Bivens( Lowrey was stopped 2 times, Harry "Kid Matthews and Lee Q Murry in his career. In his 1st fight with Rocky Marciano was 3 lbs heavier than Tedd at 180 (Rocky's 20th pro fight)and 6 lbs heavier for the next ...Lowry was also a sparring partner and was a gym rat so he was always in condition and was a surviver but Marciano beat him 2 times so to say he was called in with 2 weeks notice, so what he was always fit.

Do you really think Cockell had Rocky in deep...Rocky bounced him all over the ring...You call that DEEP come on...Peralta had Foreman deep, Mercer had Lewis Deep, Jones had Ali deep

Like I stated before, I just used Foster as an example. When he tried boxing heavier opponents, he did not have the same succes as he did against lighter ones, some goes for Duran.

Foreman was still learning when he fought Peralta and Rocky was in his prime when he fought Cockell. In his title bouts, I think Rocky looked his worse when he fought Cockell. Ted also told me that Rocky never hurt him in the 20 rounds they fought.

[SuzieQ49]

I just think that Vingo was rushed a little. He never fought anyone that was close to Rocky's class. With only 7 KO's in a career of 18, and 1 out of his last 8, doesn't really say that he was a Great puncher.


Perhaps he was not much of a finisher, because according to both the newspapers, Charlie Goldman, and Reg Gutteridge, and most importantly Marciano....Vingo could really tag hard with 1 punch. Marciano said in between rounds 1 and 2 "I have never been hit so hard in my entire life"

As far as Snowflakes goes, he was by far a better fighter then Vingo.

Quite Possibly, Snowflakes had the goods and defeated Ring Magazine top 10 in his firs couple years pro. but Vingo was on the same direction of path Snowflakes was in, even if Snowflakes did fight and beat more experienced contenders than Vingo was fighting....Vingo certainly had alot of upside and huge potential with his youth, Size, Power, and Skills. If Vingo had beaten Marciano, his next fight would have been a main event in the Garden vs a Ring Magazine top 10 opponent. How much do you know about SnowFlakes's talent and how much have you studied Vingo's talent for proper comparison?

He should have never fought Rocky at that early stage of his career

Your quite possibly right, but he did fight a very close fight with Joe Lindsay who went on to beat Earl Walls, Jimmy Slade, and Bob Satterfield....But then again how much more experienced and better was Rocky? Rocky had 24 fights, but against no one in ring magazine top 10.....This to me was a big fight for both of them two young prospects fighting in the garden for a main event. Vingo certainly showed in this fight he was near Rocky's class as a prospect, as he hurt rocky mutiple times, came close to flooring him, and had him buzzed throughout the fight....If he doesnt end up in a coma...who knows how his career turns out...Maybe he retires early, maybe he drifts off into life as a clubfighter, or maybe he bounces back gets more mature and comes back as a top contender and him and Rocky had a huge legacy defining Trilogy in the mid 1950s


Btw, Was Johnny Skhor ever rated in Ring Magazine monthly top 10 in the 1940s after his big uspet win over Tami Mauriello in 47?

[SuzieQ49]

Rocky was in his prime when he fought Cockell.

I don't think so. He looked on the decline to me. I think Rockys prime was 1951-1953, although he did have one last good performance against moore in 55...but he was really slowing down by that time, all that wear and tear was breaking his 32 year old body down especially with his style.

[Bummy Davis]

"much harder to stop a great big man than a great little man"

The 230 or more pounders of history were not great. Foster could not beat big men, but Langford, Dempsey, Louis, Satterfield, Moore, etc could. All we know about Marciano is that he knocked out every 200 plus pounder he fought, including Louis, and convincingly. My opinion is Marciano punched as hard for his size as anyone.

And don't get me wrong. I think Lewis and Vitali would be too big for Marciano. I think he could stop Simon (and also Willard and Carnera). These giants were more defined by big than by great or even good.

As for Ted Lowry, he hardly proves that big heavyweights take punches better. The opposite, in fact. I don't think you can carry one opponent too far. Look at Sonny Liston going the distance twice with Burt Whitehurst.

Right and Archie Moore stopped Burt ...I think the size factor can come in to play and be a factor with a great big man ( but how many have we had)..Lennox Lewis...I think the Klitschko's are good fighters and quite Large for Marciano but the question could be can they go 15 rds and have there body's endure at a Marciano pace....also do they really hit harder than Marciano..I think test proved the power including weight factor was close.....and if we are going to go with the size thing than we have to say Ali, Foreman,Holmes and the rest of the 6'2-6"3 crew and a lot of the 6'3 heavies would have trouble with the size and skills and power of the Klitschko's as well...so if we go with the size makes a difference theory, we have to say Lewis,Klitschko's( Ill leave Valuev out) nay be the best ever...I think Lewis used his height well and rate him high but he also had weakness ( never KO'd a man past 8 rds) and had a solid chin but he was KOable, size was a big tool he had but when I watch the Ray Mercer(6"1 fight ( if I replace it with Joe Louis, I can see Louis stopping Lewis

[hhascup]

Perhaps he was not much of a finisher, because according to both the newspapers, Charlie Goldman, and Reg Gutteridge, and most importantly Marciano....Vingo could really tag hard with 1 punch. Marciano said in between rounds 1 and 2 "I have never been hit so hard in my entire life"



Quite Possibly, Snowflakes had the goods and defeated Ring Magazine top 10 in his firs couple years pro. but Vingo was on the same direction of path Snowflakes was in, even if Snowflakes did fight and beat more experienced contenders than Vingo was fighting....Vingo certainly had alot of upside and huge potential with his youth, Size, Power, and Skills. If Vingo had beaten Marciano, his next fight would have been a main event in the Garden vs a Ring Magazine top 10 opponent. How much do you know about SnowFlakes's talent and how much have you studied Vingo's talent for proper comparison?



Your quite possibly right, but he did fight a very close fight with Joe Lindsay who went on to beat Earl Walls, Jimmy Slade, and Bob Satterfield....But then again how much more experienced and better was Rocky? Rocky had 24 fights, but against no one in ring magazine top 10.....This to me was a big fight for both of them two young prospects fighting in the garden for a main event. Vingo certainly showed in this fight he was near Rocky's class as a prospect, as he hurt rocky mutiple times, came close to flooring him, and had him buzzed throughout the fight....If he doesnt end up in a coma...who knows how his career turns out...Maybe he retires early, maybe he drifts off into life as a clubfighter, or maybe he bounces back gets more mature and comes back as a top contender and him and Rocky had a huge legacy defining Trilogy in the mid 1950s


Btw, Was Johnny Skhor ever rated in Ring Magazine monthly top 10 in the 1940s after his big uspet win over Tami Mauriello in 47?


It was Lindsay's 4th pro bout.

Johnny Shkor I think so BUT I will check it out when get back home next week. This is what I wrote some time ago:

Rocky fought 254 pound Jerry Humphrey Jackson in his 7th, not 2nd, Pro bout, and Jackson was no Lennox Lewis. He had a Pro record of 2-2. Layne was only 6'1", some sources have him less then that.

Rocky did fight 6'5" Pat Connolly who 8-5 when he fought Rocky, 6'5" Johnny Shkor who was 29-18-2 when he fought Rocky. Connolly didn't last a round while Shkor was able to survive until the 6th before being KO'd.

It's late so I am calling it a night.

[OLD FOGEY]

Foster was just an example. I agree that Rocky would stop Simon, Willard and Carnera too, BUT wouldn't stop guys like Ali or Holmes.

When he stopped Vingo, Vingo was only 2 days past his 20th birthday and he never fought a bout that was scheduled for more then 6 rounds before he fought Rocky, PLUS he only had 1 KO in his last 7 bouts and that was to a boxer making his pro debut.

I never mentioned Vingo, but he was viewed as a prospect and a solid opponent for Marciano. He had beaten fair fighters in Joe Modzele and Don Mogard and apparently had impressed some as a comer. Who knows now and who knows if the record at Boxrec is complete.

This is from the New York Times, 12-30-1949, the morning of the fight, which after explaining that the main event between Nick Barone and Dick Wagner had stirred little interest, goes on to talk about the far more exciting matchup between Marciano and Vingo.

New York Times 12-30-1949, page 23, Joseph Nichols reporting

"The speculation in the fight between Marciano and Vingo revolves around the probablility of the Brockton battler scoring a knockout. Marciano, victorious in all twenty-five fights, twenty-three by knockouts, is the 5 to 7 choice to win, but the Vingo fans are confident their man has the punch to put the first dent in Rocky's flawless record."

Considering that Marciano had won all 25 of his fights and was coming off a crushing knockout of Phil Muscato, a former top ten fighter, the 7 to 5 odds seem close to me. Vingo was clearly viewed as a live underdog. Perhaps he was more impressive in action than you acknowledge.

[MRBILL]

GODDAMN! These are the BEST and most HEATED exchanges' that I have ever dealt with.......... Good / Great shit........... I am worn out........ It's all good...............:shock:

MR.BILL:yep::bbb:deal

[MRBILL]

Jesus H. Christ!:good:scaredas::patsch:shock::rasta

MR.BILL:hey

[MRBILL]

Marciano was GREAT! But, he is still only # 10 on my ALL-TIME list of heavy greats....... Marciano CANNOT beat "Ali & Holmes" in my book............. NO!!!! Marciano CANNOT beat "Johnson or Louis" in a PRIME time machine, either............ NO WAY!!! Come the POST 1960 dudes like "Liston, Frazier & Foreman," I think Marciano is dead meat as well..... Marciano also cannot beat modern dudes like a prime "Tyson, Holy, Bowe, Lewis & Vitali Klit." No FUCKING way....... Marciano at # 10 is fair with me............. Okay, let the arrows fly...........:yep:scaredas::smoke:shock::admin

MR.BILL:bbb:hat:deal:nono

[Dempsey1238]

What ruler are you using?

[Only registered and activated users can see links]
Its pretty short, Marciano was charging up so to speak when he corner Walcott to the ropes.


[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[hhascup]

I never mentioned Vingo, but he was viewed as a prospect and a solid opponent for Marciano. He had beaten fair fighters in Joe Modzele and Don Mogard and apparently had impressed some as a comer. Who knows now and who knows if the record at Boxrec is complete.

This is from the New York Times, 12-30-1949, the morning of the fight, which after explaining that the main event between Nick Barone and Dick Wagner had stirred little interest, goes on to talk about the far more exciting matchup between Marciano and Vingo.

New York Times 12-30-1949, page 23, Joseph Nichols reporting

"The speculation in the fight between Marciano and Vingo revolves around the probablility of the Brockton battler scoring a knockout. Marciano, victorious in all twenty-five fights, twenty-three by knockouts, is the 5 to 7 choice to win, but the Vingo fans are confident their man has the punch to put the first dent in Rocky's flawless record."

Considering that Marciano had won all 25 of his fights and was coming off a crushing knockout of Phil Muscato, a former top ten fighter, the 7 to 5 odds seem close to me. Vingo was clearly viewed as a live underdog. Perhaps he was more impressive in action than you acknowledge.


I agree he was a prospect, BUT I think he was far from being a contender at that time of his career. If he fought some 8 and then 10 round fighters before he fought Rocky, I might have done a lot better.

I hate to bring this up BUT, I think being a young good looking 6′ 4″ Italian White guy, that had some talent, actually might have hurt him some. Remember, the last White heavyweight champion was back in 1937, and that was 12-1/2 years ago.

If they took their time with him, I just might have become more then just a contender, he might have gone all the way, BUT we will never know for sure.

[Mendoza]

I just think that Vingo was rushed a little. He never fought anyone that was close to Rocky's class. With only 7 KO's in a career of 18, and 1 out of his last 8, doesn't really say that he was a Great puncher. He should have never fought Rocky at that early stage of his career. As far as Snowflakes goes, he was by far a better fighter then Vingo.

Vingo was not a puncher, but I think he did stun Marciano. The Vingo vs Marciano match was marketing draw in the North East because it had two top Italians meeting each other. Boxing in those days had great match up between city gyms. This was NY vs Boston...well almost.

I agree Vingo was rushed. Marciano people slowly built him up the right way.

[Bummy Davis]

I never mentioned Vingo, but he was viewed as a prospect and a solid opponent for Marciano. He had beaten fair fighters in Joe Modzele and Don Mogard and apparently had impressed some as a comer. Who knows now and who knows if the record at Boxrec is complete.

This is from the New York Times, 12-30-1949, the morning of the fight, which after explaining that the main event between Nick Barone and Dick Wagner had stirred little interest, goes on to talk about the far more exciting matchup between Marciano and Vingo.

New York Times 12-30-1949, page 23, Joseph Nichols reporting

"The speculation in the fight between Marciano and Vingo revolves around the probablility of the Brockton battler scoring a knockout. Marciano, victorious in all twenty-five fights, twenty-three by knockouts, is the 5 to 7 choice to win, but the Vingo fans are confident their man has the punch to put the first dent in Rocky's flawless record."

Considering that Marciano had won all 25 of his fights and was coming off a crushing knockout of Phil Muscato, a former top ten fighter, the 7 to 5 odds seem close to me. Vingo was clearly viewed as a live underdog. Perhaps he was more impressive in action than you acknowledge.

One of my Uncles told me about Carmine Vingo, he had a reputation as a Big puncher, his record does not reflec it but a lot of his fights were not the 10 rd route...I think at that stage of there career it was a who wins goes on fight, unfortunatly Vingo's heart almost got him Killed but Rocky came out victorious over the 6"4 Vingo...I heard Vingo carried a lot of power but ofcourse this was an after prelim state and not at the level of Marciano/Lastarza 1, still a competitve fight for upcoming prospects but I heard Vingo had a lot of potential

[Bummy Davis]

Marciano was GREAT! But, he is still only # 10 on my ALL-TIME list of heavy greats....... Marciano CANNOT beat "Ali & Holmes" in my book............. NO!!!! Marciano CANNOT beat "Johnson or Louis" in a PRIME time machine, either............ NO WAY!!! Come the POST 1960 dudes like "Liston, Frazier & Foreman," I think Marciano is dead meat as well..... Marciano also cannot beat modern dudes like a prime "Tyson, Holy, Bowe, Lewis & Vitali Klit." No FUCKING way....... Marciano at # 10 is fair with me............. Okay, let the arrows fly...........:yep:scaredas::smoke:shock::admin

MR.BILL:bbb:hat:deal:nono

You are stuck on a poor vision of Marciano and size is a large factor in your opinion...Lets take a 37 yr old JJWalcott and put in in the Johnson era...who would he not beat more decisively than Johnson a 36 yr old Jim Jeffies, Stanley Ketchel, tOMMY bURNS?....DO YOU REALLY THINK jOHNSON FOUGHT ANYON EWITH AS MUCH POWER, STAMINA,DETERMINATION as Marciano....Oscar Bonevena had Frazier down 2 times and held his own well for 20 or so rounds,,,why would Marciano who was bigger,more stamina,better chin, and MUCH more power do worse.,..Liston looked good against scared fighter but other than Big Cat (who was already KO'd in 3 by 174lb Bob Satterfield) who went at him without fear...I think it is fair to say Marciano would NOT have feared Liston....Tyson another one, who when he smelled bigger balls than he had and someone without fear changed his dance step...Holyfield,Williams,Lewis,McBride....Foreman went down and could have been stopped ( I have seen quicker stops) vs Lyle who was big but was not a puncher in the Marciano catagory...I see you are fixed on your opinion and are stuck on size and do not bring factors like heart, stamina, determination and courage and lb for lb POWER into consideration.

[zadfrak]

Plus another big factor==to me anyway==on the size thing; they are the bigger targets in there. Too big. A precision puncher like a Joe Louis can be smaller alright but when it's time for him to let his punches go against the big targets he sure didn't catch air and fall off balance. It's almost always the big guy falling off balance trying to catch the smaller and quicker elusive target. The good one's have the ability to hit torso or arms or shoulders with their shots and those big targets. And usually you'll almost always see things like better footwork and much better upper body movement with the guys that weigh less.

[SuzieQ49]

Vingo was not a puncher


Thats not what contemporary sources and newspapers said.

[Mendoza]

Thats not what contemporary sources and newspapers said.

Which Newspaper, the local one covering NY boxing? Bottom line is Vingo had a low KO%, and faced plenty of journeyman. He wasn't a puncher at all. If Vingo had better power, he have more Ko's on his resume.

[hhascup]

I read some sources that stated that he was a big powerful puncher too, BUT like Mendoza said, his record doesn't show it and that is all we have to go by. With only 7 KO's in his 18 bouts and 1 in his last 8, really doesn't show that much punching power.

[hhascup]

Here's what Emanuel Steward had to say about Ali and Lewis.

Question: When he was at his best, do you think there was any heavyweight in history who could beat him?

Steward: "When Lewis was at his very best he'd have been very difficult for anyone to beat. And I've said this a lot. The greatest heavyweight of all time was Muhammad Ali. And I will say Ali would have had problems with Lennox. Lennox was still taller than Ali. And Lewis had a very good left jab himself. But that's the closet anybody-not that he might have beaten Ali-but I think Ali would have beaten all the heavyweights in history, that I saw, still. But I think the ones he would have had the most trouble with were Lennox and Larry Holmes. Ali would have problems with Holmes-in his prime. All of them in their prime. And he would have problems with Lennox Lewis.

[ChrisPontius]

Here's what Emanuel Steward had to say about Ali and Lewis.

Question: When he was at his best, do you think there was any heavyweight in history who could beat him?

Steward: "When Lewis was t his very best he'd have been very difficult for anyone to beat. And I've said this a lot. The greatest heavyweight of all time was Muhammad Ali. And I will say Ali would have had problems with Lennox. Lennox was still taller than Ali. And Lewis had a very good left jab himself. But that's the closet anybody-not that he might have beaten Ali-but I think Ali would have beaten all the heavyweights in history, that I saw, still. But I think the ones he would have had the most trouble with were Lennox and Larry Holmes. Ali would have problems with Holmes-in his prime. All of them in their prime. And he would have problems with Lennox Lewis.

Sounds like an honest assessment from one of the best trainers in boxing history. I heard he's a personal friend of yours and that you announced him several times in the ring?

[Bokaj]

Here's what Emanuel Steward had to say about Ali and Lewis.

Question: When he was at his best, do you think there was any heavyweight in history who could beat him?

Steward: "When Lewis was t his very best he'd have been very difficult for anyone to beat. And I've said this a lot. The greatest heavyweight of all time was Muhammad Ali. And I will say Ali would have had problems with Lennox. Lennox was still taller than Ali. And Lewis had a very good left jab himself. But that's the closet anybody-not that he might have beaten Ali-but I think Ali would have beaten all the heavyweights in history, that I saw, still. But I think the ones he would have had the most trouble with were Lennox and Larry Holmes. Ali would have problems with Holmes-in his prime. All of them in their prime. And he would have problems with Lennox Lewis.

Thanks. Good info! I think he's on to something, too.

[MRBILL]

Bum,

To cut it short, yes, Johnson fought some guys who were as strong or even stronger than Marciano....... Jimmy J. Jeffries was 35 and faded in skills in 1910, but the man was in-shape and physically strong as an Ox at 227 pounds upon his training / fight with Jack Johnson in Reno....... Yes, I know Jeffries reduced a shitload of fat during training, but he did it over a full 6 month period; so he was not weakened or drained on July 4, 1910..... BUT! Johnson, inactivity & the heat played a major factor and took his toll on Jeffries.... By rd 15, Jim Jeffries had his goose cooked............

ALSO! I know goddamn well Fireman Jim Flynn is no Marciano.... However, Flynn was a rugged & strong fighter who fought dirty as hell..... He had good bulky muscle for a white boy....... Was he the fighter Marciano was? NO!! But he was strong.... Very strong....

SO! I can keep a straight face when I say Jack Johnson could handle and whip Marciano in a time machine.......

I also have no doubt that a primed Joe Louis from 1937 to 1942 would and could hammer the '52 to '55 version of Marciano in a time machine..... The fight of 1951 was a great scrape at the Garden in New York, but Louis was well past it by then...... We all know that, too....

Prior to '60, Marciano ranks # 3 on my list..... Behind "Johnson & Louis."

MR.BILL

[Sardu]

Hmmmmm.... Norton looked pumped and sharp in hammering a 207 pound Jerry Quarry into submission up in New York in 1975...... Christ, Ol' Norton was a ripped solid 218 1/2 pounds......... I think Norton handles the smaller Marciano....... You know, Marciano would've thought Jerry Quarry was a monster.... I think the Norton of 1975 / '76 beats the ever lovin' piss outta the 1954 version of Marciano....... Cheers.....

MR.BILL

Quarry was washed up and in lousy shape for Norton. He took the fight on 2 weeks notice. Quarry even at his best was not strong enough to hold off Marciano for more than a few rounds.

Marciano KO 6 Quarry
Marciano KO 3 Norton

[MRBILL]

Quarry was washed up and in lousy shape for Norton. He took the fight on 2 weeks notice. Quarry even at his best was not strong enough to hold off Marciano for more than a few rounds.

Marciano KO 6 Quarry
Marciano KO 3 Norton

Week or two notice or not, Quarry at 207 pounds put forth a great effort and took some serious blows from Norton.... Quarry was beat / TKO'd, but he was gallant...... Quarry at least tried for Christ Sake.... Quarry may have been suckin' down beers and sniffin' Coke lines prior the fight, but he still could've kicked a lot of dudes' ass' in '75....

MR.BILL:deal

[Chris Warren]

Let me see, Marciano struggled like hell to knock out the 40 year old blown up middleweight Archie Moore, Marciano lost to the 175 pound Ted Lowry, Marciano lost to the 185 pound Roland LaStarza, Struggled against the middleweight/light heavyweight Ezzard Charles and struggled against the 190 pound 40 year old Jersey Joe Walcott. Moore was knocked out more times than Norton, Walcott was knocked out more times than Norton. Norton fought the bigger and better opponents but Marciano would knock him out?

Simply amusing, I can tell most of you forum members are white. If the boxers I just mentioned who were smaller than Ken Norton gave Marciano trouble then the bigger, stronger Ken Norton would knock Marciano out. Jeesh you people are slow!!!!

[MrMarvel]

Let me see, Marciano struggled like hell to knock out the 40 year old blown up middleweight Archie Moore, Marciano lost to the 175 pound Ted Lowry, Marciano lost to the 185 pound Roland LaStarza, Struggled against the middleweight/light heavyweight Ezzard Charles and struggled against the 190 pound 40 year old Jersey Joe Walcott. Moore was knocked out more times than Norton, Walcott was knocked out more times than Norton. Norton fought the bigger and better opponents but Marciano would knock him out?

Simply amusing, I can tell most of you forum members are white. If the boxers I just mentioned who were smaller than Ken Norton gave Marciano trouble then the bigger, stronger Ken Norton would knock Marciano out. Jeesh you people are slow!!!!

Thanks for this huge dose of realism.

Wasn't Lowry around .500 when he beat Marciano? I think Lowry retired .500 on the nose.

Walcott is massively overrated on this web site and he dumped Marciano and had him going. The journeyman (sorry, but that's how everybody back in the day described him) was winning over 12 rounds.

But you forgot Marciano's inability to knock out Don Cockell. He hit Cockell with everything he had, yet he couldn't knock the man out, a man whom Jimmy Slade dropped five times and stopped in the fourth round, a man whom Randy Turpin dropped three times and stopped in the 11th--and Turpin weighed 162 that night!

Marciano was an exciting fighter. I think we all agree to this. But he became champion because of the state of the heavyweight division during those years. People who think Marciano would be competitive in the 1970s are seeing the world through distorted glasses. And, yes, I think race has a lot to do with that.

In fact, the main reason I think people build up Walcott and other fighters of that era is to make Marciano look better. They recognize that the facts get in the way of the collective fantasy.

[SuzieQ49]

Pontius care to take a nab at those two ridiculous posts above or should we just sit back and laugh?

[Holmes' Jab]

I've got a feeling Norton could make it out of the early rounds, but I think he'd be stopped via accumulation around the 5th or 6th maybe. Marciano was a heavyhanded punchers, sure, especailly given his weight, but I don't think he possessed quite the single puch concussive power of a Foreman or Shavers. I think that's a fair comment.

[BITCH ASS]

Struggled to knock out Moore?

Moore had skill.

See, that's where ya'll are lost. Some of ya'll think boxing is all about size. Why was Moore able to beat people that outweighed him by 40 lbs?

It's called skill.

Like I said, show me Klitschko bending at the waist, and I'll give somebody 5 bucks.

[Dempsey1238]

Marciano mostly walk over Moore, outside of round 2, the fight was pretty one sided.

As for Jeff, Johnson control the fight from round 1.

I have round 1, unknown round, 4, 12, 13, `14, and 15. And Johnson was strong in the clichs in the fight. I did not score any round for Jeff. Johnson did what ever he wanted in that fight. Jeff was a shell, and all that happen was he got clich and pounded on, back off, clich and pounded on, repeat.

[ChrisPontius]

Pontius care to take a nab at those two ridiculous posts above or should we just sit back and laugh?

Nah, those two are aliases from the same person (Pepping it etc). After that glitch in the system when he got caught, he was embarrassed too much and basically got laughed at every time whenever he spilled his drool, but now he's back with a new name (or two), apparently, dumping the same, repetitive "Walcott was a journeyman" shit over and over and getting some reactions. The fact that both have a similar, low number of posts is no coincidence.

Basically, he wants you to get upset and make a long, serious reply. Ignoring him is what keeps him from reaching his goal, so that's the best thing to do. It's actually called an "Internet troll", read up on it here: [Only registered and activated users can see links]

[SuzieQ49]

My favorite line up above is this "I can tell most of you forum members are white"

[MrMarvel]

My favorite line up above is this "I can tell most of you forum members are white"

You don't think this is true? Are most people here black?

[MrMarvel]

Not only did the newspapers of the day describe Walcott as a "journeyman," they used the same term to describe Charles. Charles was at the end of a long light heavyweight career. WWII left an opening for him to make some money at the end. Tragic, actually, given how he wound up. The media described Charles as an "inflated light heavyweight" and Walcott as a "superannuated heavyweight." Look up "superannuated." You should understand why the term was used. Walcott was also described as geriatric, if that gives you a clue. Walcott and Charles fights were generally regarded as exceedingly dull affairs with two of the best in an era short on talent. Sorry, but thems the facts.

Do you people ever actually read the historical record, or do you just live in the self-referential fantasy worlds where the obvious becomes obscure? Since everybody in the day knew this, why don't you guys take a look at the actual past and base your judgment on this? Walcott was a journeyman. A proper illustrated encyclopedia of boxing would have Walcott's picture by the entry "journeyman." They would use JJ Braddock's photo, but they would reserve his picture for "Cinderella boxer." Of course, if you guys were editor it wouldn't be the picture of Braddock putting Louis on his hindquarters.

[MrMarvel]

Nah, those two are aliases from the same person (Pepping it etc). After that glitch in the system when he got caught, he was embarrassed too much and basically got laughed at every time whenever he spilled his drool, but now he's back with a new name (or two), apparently, dumping the same, repetitive "Walcott was a journeyman" shit over and over and getting some reactions. The fact that both have a similar, low number of posts is no coincidence.

Basically, he wants you to get upset and make a long, serious reply. Ignoring him is what keeps him from reaching his goal, so that's the best thing to do. It's actually called an "Internet troll", read up on it here: [Only registered and activated users can see links]

Sounds like you had no answer for the Pepping It character, either.

[MRBILL]

Neither "Charles or Walcott" was appreciated during their tenure in boxing...... Charles was bland, and Walcott lost some early fights he should've won........ Both were great overall boxers, however, they were both gapped between greats like "Louis & Marciano." Cheers.....

MR.BILL

[Dempsey1238]

Lets rember the media also never forgave Charles for beating Louis. So they still said some unfair remarks up until the Charles fight with Marciano
were he would "redeem" himself in the eyes of the media for his effort vs the Rock.

[MRBILL]

Lets rember the media also never forgave Charles for beating Louis. So they still said some unfair remarks up until the Charles fight with Marciano
were he would "redeem" himself in the eyes of the media for his effort vs the Rock.

I have the entire 15 rds from 1950 on video.... It's in good shape as well.... HOWEVER! The overall fight is painfully slow......... poor Louis was 218 pounds, balding, and fought like he was 136 yrs old....... The 30 year old Charles at 183 clearly schooled Louis with ease.......... Pabst Blue Ribbon was the beer sponsor........... Hey, I still drink that shit to this very day..... Ice cold in the bottle; not too bad......
:deal:thumbsup:good:D

MR.BILL

[Seamus]

My favorite line up above is this "I can tell most of you forum members are white"

I always wondered why I thought Marciano was a great fighter.

[Dempsey1238]

I have the entire fight also, it was a slow fight, but Charles did beat Louis. Louis still had power with that jab though, look at Charles face at the end lol.

Charles got his licks in also.
I might do a round by round score of it. Not action type of fight, but regardless, as with Corbett beating Sullivan, the media were pretty hard on Charles for this win.

[MRBILL]

I have the entire fight also, it was a slow fight, but Charles did beat Louis. Louis still had power with that jab though, look at Charles face at the end lol.

Charles got his licks in also.
I might do a round by round score of it. Not action type of fight, but regardless, as with Corbett beating Sullivan, the media were pretty hard on Charles for this win.

Louis was a SHELL by Sept. '50................ He looked old, slow, bald & nonresponsive..... YES! His jab was all that remained..... SAD!! Ezzard Charles was too young and fresh for Louis in '50.....:mad:
:patsch

Amazing, Joe Louis was actually a better fighter with more sharpness in 1951 when he fought Marciano............... Why? Because he had a dozen fights to prepare himself.... But, at age 37, Louis could NOT withstand the wicked power of Marciano..... STILL! Louis was game for the first 6 rds against Marciano.........:|

MR.BILL:bbb:deal

[MAG1965]

Norton would win. Marciano fought guys when it was good to fight them.

[Sardu]

Week or two notice or not, Quarry at 207 pounds put forth a great effort and took some serious blows from Norton.... Quarry was beat / TKO'd, but he was gallant...... Quarry at least tried for Christ Sake.... Quarry may have been suckin' down beers and sniffin' Coke lines prior the fight, but he still could've kicked a lot of dudes' ass' in '75....

MR.BILL:deal

Quarry was before my time but was my father's favorite fighter. I later became a big Quarry fan. Looking at it objectively though he would have had zero chance of defeating Marciano at any point in his career. You are lighthearted about Quarry's partying and self-immolation before the Norton fight but it actually is not funny at all. He was in no condition - mentally, physically, emotionally, etc. to be in that fight and suffered a tremendous beating and probably permanent damage as a result. Marciano, incidently, was interested in purchasing Quarry's contract about 10 years before and decided against it. He saw how JQ ran hot and cold and actually left the Quarry-Machen fight early when he saw how listless Jerry looked in there.

[Sardu]

Let me see, Marciano struggled like hell to knock out the 40 year old blown up middleweight Archie Moore, Marciano lost to the 175 pound Ted Lowry, Marciano lost to the 185 pound Roland LaStarza, Struggled against the middleweight/light heavyweight Ezzard Charles and struggled against the 190 pound 40 year old Jersey Joe Walcott. Moore was knocked out more times than Norton, Walcott was knocked out more times than Norton. Norton fought the bigger and better opponents but Marciano would knock him out?

Simply amusing, I can tell most of you forum members are white. If the boxers I just mentioned who were smaller than Ken Norton gave Marciano trouble then the bigger, stronger Ken Norton would knock Marciano out. Jeesh you people are slow!!!!


Ali - Disputed decision agaisnt Doug Jones in 1962. Ali was much more badly hurt by the Henry Cooper knockdown then Maricano was in flash knockdowns against Walcott and Moore. Rocky did not need a split glove to save him from possible defeat in those fights.

Ali definately lost the first and third Norton fights and possibly all three.

The second Frazier fight was very close, Ali lost the first one, and had to suffer the closest thing to death (his own words) to defeat 'Smokin' Joe in the Thrilla in Manila.

Yes, Ali was one the best heavyweights ever but he had some questionable decisions that went in his favor. Why do the people who try to sully the record and accomplishments of Rocky Marciano conviently forget to do the same to others like Ali? Perhaps they have an agenda?

[janitor]

[quote=MrMarvel;3974113]Not only did the newspapers of the day describe Walcott as a "journeyman," they used the same term to describe Charles.

Well that hardly strengthens your case because most people agree that Charles has one of the greatest resumes of all time.

I read a newspaper after Glen Johnson won the ring magazine title that called him "a journeyman for who the journey finaly paid off". While we all know about Glen Johnsons past we presumably respect him as a world class fighter.

Hell you can find a newspaper that says anything about any fighter if you look hard enough.

In Walcotts days a journeyman was any black fighter who didnt have a powerful manager.


Charles was at the end of a long light heavyweight career. WWII left an opening for him to make some money at the end. Tragic, actually, given how he wound up. The media described Charles as an "inflated light heavyweight" and Walcott as a "superannuated heavyweight." Look up "superannuated." You should understand why the term was used. Walcott was also described as geriatric, if that gives you a clue. Walcott and Charles fights were generally regarded as exceedingly dull affairs with two of the best in an era short on talent. Sorry, but thems the facts.


Again you can hand pick a newspaper acount to give any impression you want.

Would you be so quick to quote a source that was complimentary about Walcott or Charles or are these obscure articles that paint them in a bad light the only ones you have been able to find?

Do you people ever actually read the historical record, or do you just live in the self-referential fantasy worlds where the obvious becomes obscure? Since everybody in the day knew this, why don't you guys take a look at the actual past and base your judgment on this? Walcott was a journeyman. A proper illustrated encyclopedia of boxing would have Walcott's picture by the entry "journeyman." They would use JJ Braddock's photo, but they would reserve his picture for "Cinderella boxer." Of course, if you guys were editor it wouldn't be the picture of Braddock putting Louis on his hindquarters.

I have drawn you and your various aliases on this question more than once and have never got an answer:

If Walcott was a journeyman then it follows that their were a teir of fighters at the time who were of a higher calibre.

Who were they?

The term journeyman is relative to the era in question.

Who are the teir of fighters who are better than Walcott and therfore the contenders of that era.

If you have no answer for this then your repeated use of the term "journeyman" is nothing more than an imature soundbite aimed at making Walcott look bad or getting a reaction from other posters.

[janitor]

You don't think this is true? Are most people here black?

How the should I know?

We cant even see eachothers faces.

Personaly I am white but my favourite fighter is Sam Langford, not because of his race but because I am fascinated by his story as a fighter.

By the same token you dont have to be white for Rocky Marciano to be your favourite fighter. Danny Williams is a huge Rocky Marciano fan as is Howard Eastman. Eastman even ran allong the same route as Rocky Marciano used while training for his fight with Bernard Hopkins.

Joe Frazier and George Foreman both name Marciano as the second greatest heavyweight that ever lived.

There is something raw about tha man that can apeal to any fighter or fight fan.

[Dempsey1238]

How the should I know?

We cant even see eachothers faces.

Personaly I am white but my favourite fighter is Sam Langford, not because of his race but because I am fascinated by his story as a fighter.

By the same token you dont have to be white for Rocky Marciano to be your favourite fighter. Danny Williams is a huge Rocky Marciano fan as is Howard Eastman. Eastman even ran allong the same route as Rocky Marciano used while training for his fight with Bernard Hopkins.

Joe Frazier and George Foreman both name Marciano as the second greatest heavyweight that ever lived.

There is something raw about tha man that can apeal to any fighter or fight fan.

When I listen to Joe Louis in the Marciano Ali superfight, and the radio computer fights.
IT seem evey time Louis pick Rocky Marciano. Over Ali, Dempsey and any one else he face.

I suppose Louis became a fan of Marciano lol.

[SuzieQ49]

Norton would win. Marciano fought guys when it was good to fight them.

You mean like fighting Champion Jersey Joe Walcott after Walcott won the title with a devastating knockout victory over Prime Ezzard Charles?

or fighting Ezzard Charles, the # 1 heavyweight contender who was coming off a two dominating knockout victories over Ranked contenders Bob Satterfield and Colley Wallace..... and winner of 11 out of his last 13?

or fighting Archie Moore, # 1 heavyweight contender winner of 45 out of his last 46 fights and winner of title eliminator over Huge Cuban nino valdez?


or fighting Joe Louis, # 2 heavyweight contender winner of last 8 in a row?

or fighting 22 year old Rex Layne, # 6 heavyweight contender winner of 34 out of his first 35 including 25 by knockout?

or fighting 23 year old Roland Lastarza, # 10 heavyweight contender, Winner of all 37 fights in a row??

or fighting 29 year old Harry Kid Matthews, # 5 heavyweight contender, winner of 81 out of 84 fights including his last 50 in a row?



Ya they sure picked a cupcake of a schedule for him :roll:



* the only criticism you can make of marciano is his management taking on a washed up Lee Savold instead of a young prime top contneder like Clarence Henry, Coley Wallace, Rematch Lastarza or Bob Baker who were all interested in fighting Marciano on that date. I would have liked to seen Marciano taken on either Baker or Henry in 51-52. That is my only criticism. Marciano cannot be criticised for taking on Cockell instead of Valdez, since marcianos management came to agreement to fight Valdez in the winter of 1955 in Miami so they already planned ahead to use cockell as a tuneup for a big fight with Valdez. Then Archie Moore made alot of noise how he deserved the megafight over Valdez, so Moore and Valdez squared off in the Final Title Eliminator to determine true # 1 contender and Moore clearly won a close but well deserved decision.

[natonic]

Louis was a SHELL by Sept. '50................ He looked old, slow, bald & nonresponsive..... YES! His jab was all that remained..... SAD!! Ezzard Charles was too young and fresh for Louis in '50.....:mad:
:patsch

Amazing, Joe Louis was actually a better fighter with more sharpness in 1951 when he fought Marciano............... Why? Because he had a dozen fights to prepare himself.... But, at age 37, Louis could NOT withstand the wicked power of Marciano..... STILL! Louis was game for the first 6 rds against Marciano.........:|

MR.BILL:bbb:deal

Mr. Bill, I like your posts. You're not afraid to put your opinions out there, you take a lot of shit and I haven't seen you attack anybody. Very thicked skinned which is cool. BUT, Vitali Klitschko at #6 all time. Bill, pass me that crack pipe ;-)
I'm not a Marciano nut hugger by any means. I lean toward the mid 60's Ali as the be all and end all for Heavyweights. Like you, I think highly of a prime Holmes. But some things about Marciano that are underrated are his craftiness in closing the gap and dare I say it, his defensive aillity. Now as far as Norton, did Norton ever win a really big fight? I mean a chapionship fight? Yeah he upset Ali but he had clear deficiencies against certain types of fighters. Fighters who could put power shots on his delicate chin. He could be beating Marciano, but at some point Marciano would catch him (and that's a worst case scenario, assuming Marciano just didn't administer a severe beatdown from the start). You've mentioned Norton's jab (which was good), but I think Marciano slips that jab more often than not. Marciano by mid-round KO.

[hhascup]

Ali - Disputed decision agaisnt Doug Jones in 1962. Ali was much more badly hurt by the Henry Cooper knockdown then Maricano was in flash knockdowns against Walcott and Moore. Rocky did not need a split glove to save him from possible defeat in those fights.

Ali definately lost the first and third Norton fights and possibly all three.

The second Frazier fight was very close, Ali lost the first one, and had to suffer the closest thing to death (his own words) to defeat 'Smokin' Joe in the Thrilla in Manila.

Yes, Ali was one the best heavyweights ever but he had some questionable decisions that went in his favor. Why do the people who try to sully the record and accomplishments of Rocky Marciano conviently forget to do the same to others like Ali? Perhaps they have an agenda?

I gave the film to several big time boxing judges and they all had Ali winning against Jones, most had 7-3 and some even had it 8-2.

Ali was dropped by Cooper BUT the time between rounds was not much more then 1 minute.

My good friends, Harold Lederman and Arthur Mercante both had Ali winning the 3rd bout with Norton.
referee: Arthur Mercante 8-6 | judge: Harold Lederman 8-7 | judge: Barney Smith 8-7

[janitor]

Norton would win. Marciano fought guys when it was good to fight them.

You are wrong there.

Marciano got some bad breaks early in his career.

As champion he never fought anybody ranked outside the top2 and only fought one oponent who was not the No1 contender at the time (Cockle).

How many champions through history have such a consistant record of fighting the top ranked challengers?

[MRBILL]

Quarry was before my time but was my father's favorite fighter. I later became a big Quarry fan. Looking at it objectively though he would have had zero chance of defeating Marciano at any point in his career. You are lighthearted about Quarry's partying and self-immolation before the Norton fight but it actually is not funny at all. He was in no condition - mentally, physically, emotionally, etc. to be in that fight and suffered a tremendous beating and probably permanent damage as a result. Marciano, incidently, was interested in purchasing Quarry's contract about 10 years before and decided against it. He saw how JQ ran hot and cold and actually left the Quarry-Machen fight early when he saw how listless Jerry looked in there.

Hmmmmm.... I just don't know..... Yeah....... Hmmmmmmm..... I did a recent review of "Quarry-Frazier" of 1974 & "Quarry-Norton" of 1975.... In doing so, I noticed that J.Q. weighed 207 pounds for BOTH fights and looked exactly the same in BOTH fights........ At 207 pounds, Quarry had some small love handles off his hips and lower back...... STILL! He looked in pretty good shape........ This utter horseshit about being totally outta shape wasn't until around 1977 when he came back to fight Lorenzo Zanon..... I'm sure Quarry sucked down a few beers and perhaps smoked a little weed in the early 1970s, but his fondness for partying really wasn't a huge factor until he barely beat Zanon in a sloppy effort.......
:deal:bbb:hey

MR.BILL:bbb

P.S.

I never said Quarry could beat Marciano..... I just said Quarry could extend and test Ol' Rocco in a fierce fight in a time machine....:thumbsup

[MRBILL]

Mr. Bill, I like your posts. You're not afraid to put your opinions out there, you take a lot of shit and I haven't seen you attack anybody. Very thicked skinned which is cool. BUT, Vitali Klitschko at #6 all time. Bill, pass me that crack pipe ;-)
I'm not a Marciano nut hugger by any means. I lean toward the mid 60's Ali as the be all and end all for Heavyweights. Like you, I think highly of a prime Holmes. But some things about Marciano that are underrated are his craftiness in closing the gap and dare I say it, his defensive aillity. Now as far as Norton, did Norton ever win a really big fight? I mean a chapionship fight? Yeah he upset Ali but he had clear deficiencies against certain types of fighters. Fighters who could put power shots on his delicate chin. He could be beating Marciano, but at some point Marciano would catch him (and that's a worst case scenario, assuming Marciano just didn't administer a severe beatdown from the start). You've mentioned Norton's jab (which was good), but I think Marciano slips that jab more often than not. Marciano by mid-round KO.

Fellas,

When I place Vitali Klit at # 6 on my all-time list it is not in context to his vast accomplishments....... I say that because I feel Vitali Klit has / had the real potential within himself to KO or KILL somebody at any givin time in the ring..... He is HUGE and GOOD!! Vitali Klit is NOT a typical "Baby Huey" type lummox..... Therefore, I see him as a serious threat in a time machine against anybody from 1887 to 2009.........

I've never seen Vitali Klit down or seriously rocked in a fight..... His worst injuries have been a torn rotor cuff in 2000 & a wicked cut / cuts in 2003 against Lenny Lewis.... That's it...... He has been tagged by dudes like "Lewis & Corrie Sanders." I see the determination, focus, training, power & scaryness in Vitali Klit that I fail to see in a lot of other dudes past or present........

The only real downside I see with Vitali Klit is that he didn't really burst onto the scene and take the boxing world by a storm until he was 30 goddamn yrs old....... Now, at age 37, his clock is ticking downward..... Still, the man is for real.......
:deal:thumbsup:bbb:hey:good

MR.BILL:D

[MRBILL]

I just reviewd "Louis-Simon 2" from '42..... Abe Simon was a huge dude at 255 pounds.... BUT! His skills sucked, as did his speed......... Simon was a classic example of Louis kayoing a bartender........ I like the fight, and I was happy for Louis, but kayoing the easy to hit Simon was no biggie....... Cheers.....

MR.BILL

[beecho1988]

Marciano UD

[natonic]

Fellas,

When I place Vitali Klit at # 6 on my all-time list it is not in context to his vast accomplishments....... I say that because I feel Vitali Klit has / had the real potential within himself to KO or KILL somebody at any givin time in the ring..... He is HUGE and GOOD!! Vitali Klit is NOT a typical "Baby Huey" type lummox..... Therefore, I see him as a serious threat in a time machine against anybody from 1887 to 2009.........

I've never seen Vitali Klit down or seriously rocked in a fight..... His worst injuries have been a torn rotor cuff in 2000 & a wicked cut / cuts in 2003 against Lenny Lewis.... That's it...... He has been tagged by dudes like "Lewis & Corrie Sanders." I see the determination, focus, training, power & scaryness in Vitali Klit that I fail to see in a lot of other dudes past or present........

The only real downside I see with Vitali Klit is that he didn't really burst onto the scene and take the boxing world by a storm until he was 30 goddamn yrs old....... Now, at age 37, his clock is ticking downward..... Still, the man is for real.......
:deal:thumbsup:bbb:hey:good

MR.BILL:D

I get where you're coming from Mr. Bill, but I think Heavyweight is the one division where you have to make allowances. We can compare Ray Robinson vs Ray Leonard at 147 and feel fairly comfortable that it's a fair comparison. I agree that Marciano vs Vitali is like a Mutt and Jeff type deal. But again, with Heavyweights, because of the vast disparity in size I think you have to go more on accomplishments and leave the time machine in the garage. I don't think you can say Vitali is the 6th greatest Heavy ever. Could he beat Marciano? It's possible Marciano would get DQ'd from hitting Vitali in the nuts and knee caps. To each his own, but I think you have to be more lenient when comparing a 185 lb man to a 250 lb man.

[MRBILL]

I get where you're coming from Mr. Bill, but I think Heavyweight is the one division where you have to make allowances. We can compare Ray Robinson vs Ray Leonard at 147 and feel fairly comfortable that it's a fair comparison. I agree that Marciano vs Vitali is like a Mutt and Jeff type deal. But again, with Heavyweights, because of the vast disparity in size I think you have to go more on accomplishments and leave the time machine in the garage. I don't think you can say Vitali is the 6th greatest Heavy ever. Could he beat Marciano? It's possible Marciano would get DQ'd from hitting Vitali in the nuts and knee caps. To each his own, but I think you have to be more lenient when comparing a 185 lb man to a 250 lb man.

I hear that.... I do..... However, I can easily see Marciano shitting his pants if he were in that ring facing either "Lewis or Klit" in 2003 on HBO..... Of course we are talking about a 29 or 30 year old Marciano from 1952 or '53.....:hey

The punches that Lewis and Klit threw and landed on each other would park lesser men with less size and strength.... I cannot see Marciano handling that type of action......:-(

MR.BILL:deal

[Dempsey1238]

Marciano fear no man, Win or lose, he would not be shitting his pants.

[janitor]

[quote=MRBILL;3983162]I hear that.... I do..... However, I can easily see Marciano shitting his pants if he were in that ring facing either "Lewis or Klit" in 2003 on HBO..... Of course we are talking about a 29 or 30 year old Marciano from 1952 or '53.....:hey


Some fighters will simply never get scared whatever you put them in with.

You would never find a fighter who would scare Jimmy Braddock or Billy Conn for example.

If a fighter is afraid of his oponents simply because they are tall and have big biceps then he is probably fighting in the amateures.


The punches that Lewis and Klit threw and landed on each other would park lesser men with less size and strength.... I cannot see Marciano handling that type of action......:-(


They would hit harder but they would also land slower.

The slicksters somtimes test the chin harder than the punchers.

[SuzieQ49]

However, I can easily see Marciano shitting his pants if he were in that ring facing either "Lewis or Klit" in 2003 on HBO

Now you crossed the line Bill. A grizzly bear would not scare Rocky Marciano. Marciano would get in the ring with anybody, no matter who it was.

[OLD FOGEY]

Hmmmmm.... I just don't know..... Yeah....... Hmmmmmmm..... I did a recent review of "Quarry-Frazier" of 1974 & "Quarry-Norton" of 1975.... In doing so, I noticed that J.Q. weighed 207 pounds for BOTH fights and looked exactly the same in BOTH fights........ At 207 pounds, Quarry had some small love handles off his hips and lower back...... STILL! He looked in pretty good shape........ This utter horseshit about being totally outta shape wasn't until around 1977 when he came back to fight Lorenzo Zanon..... I'm sure Quarry sucked down a few beers and perhaps smoked a little weed in the early 1970s, but his fondness for partying really wasn't a huge factor until he barely beat Zanon in a sloppy effort.......
:deal:bbb:hey

MR.BILL:bbb

P.S.

I never said Quarry could beat Marciano..... I just said Quarry could extend and test Ol' Rocco in a fierce fight in a time machine....:thumbsup

You get your weights wrong with Quarry. He weighed 197 for Frazier in 1974, ten pounds lighter than he did for Norton.

[MRBILL]

You get your weights wrong with Quarry. He weighed 197 for Frazier in 1974, ten pounds lighter than he did for Norton.

I'll check into that.....:huh Sometimes its hard to hear the goddamn ring announcer through the roar of the crowd.... And also them older fights don't always give you all the stats like today's HBO / Showtime cards do.... You know what I'm saying??:good

MR.BILL:hey

[MRBILL]

Okay... I just checked..... Ol' Jerry Boy was 197 1/4 pounds in '74 for Frazier.........

MR.BILL:bbb:deal

[MrMarvel]

I just reviewd "Louis-Simon 2" from '42..... Abe Simon was a huge dude at 255 pounds.... BUT! His skills sucked, as did his speed......... Simon was a classic example of Louis kayoing a bartender........ I like the fight, and I was happy for Louis, but kayoing the easy to hit Simon was no biggie....... Cheers.....

MR.BILL

Abe Simon knocked out Jersey Joe Walcott inside of six rounds. You must have been mistaken. Walcott was the Willie Pep of the heavyweight division. Simon must have been a genius to knock out Walcott.

[SuzieQ49]

Let me set the record straight. Walcott was a late bloomer. When he fought Simon, he was nowhere near his prime. He had not even met up with Felix Bocchichio yet, and had not begun training with Dan Florio yet. Walcotts first career prior to 1944 should not be held against him given the extreme circumstances.

Mr. Marvel Did you ever bother to read a Walcott-Simon fight report? Well I got one from Ted Spoon.


What happened was Walcott, who took the fight on 24 hr notice, for a payday to support his family had little to no training, and little to no food in his belly in the past 48 hours. Still, the naturally talented Walcott beat the hell out of simon for 6 rounds. Outboxing him, Outmaneuvering him, Outslugging him, basically having his way with Simon. Then in the 6th round Walcotts lack of condition gave out on him...Walcott was stumbling around the ring out of gas and Simon finished him off. Walcott did not go down from simons punches, but from being exhausted.


Simon doesn't stand a chance against a Walcott post 1945

[MRBILL]

Let me set the record straight. Walcott was a late bloomer. When he fought Simon, he was nowhere near his prime. He had not even met up with Felix Bocchichio yet, and had not begun training with Dan Florio yet. Walcotts first career prior to 1944 should not be held against him given the extreme circumstances.

Mr. Marvel Did you ever bother to read a Walcott-Simon fight report? Well I got one from Ted Spoon.


What happened was Walcott, who took the fight on 24 hr notice, for a payday to support his family had little to no training, and little to no food in his belly in the past 48 hours. Still, the naturally talented Walcott beat the hell out of simon for 6 rounds. Outboxing him, Outmaneuvering him, Outslugging him, basically having his way with Simon. Then in the 6th round Walcotts lack of condition gave out on him...Walcott was stumbling around the ring out of gas and Simon finished him off. Walcott did not go down from simons punches, but from being exhausted.


Simon doesn't stand a chance against a Walcott post 1945

I'll buy that myself......:deal:bbb:good

MR.BILL:yep

[Seamus]

wow, it must be fun to have an agenda.

perhaps, douchebagery is not enough to strive for.

[MRBILL]

wow, it must be fun to have an agenda.

perhaps, douchebagery is not enough to strive for.

The hell?

SR.BILL:huh

[MrMarvel]

Simon would have trouble with the Walcott who barely defeated Maxim two out of three times and lost to a ringworn Charles three of four times.

By the way, Walcott's win-loss ratio was virtually identical after his return to the ring to that before his first retirement. He was knocked out three times first time around and three times second time around. He wasn't a late bloomer. He was a journeyman lucky enough to still be carrying on in a small sea of little fishes.

[MRBILL]

Wlacott only lost to Charles 2 X....... Walcott won fights 3 & 4.....

MR.BILL

[MRBILL]

Walcott only lost to Charles 2 X....... Walcott won fights 3 & 4.....

MR.BILL:yep

[MrMarvel]

Walcott got a decision over Charles, but those in attendance recognized that Charles was robbed.

[MRBILL]

Walcott got a decision over Charles, but those in attendance recognized that Charles was robbed.

That ain't gonna fly in the books........:-(

MR.BILL

[Seamus]

The hell?

SR.BILL:huh

exactly.

[janitor]

Walcott got a decision over Charles, but those in attendance recognized that Charles was robbed.

As far as I can see ringsiders were split more or less 50/50 on who won.

That hardly amounts to a bobery.

At the end of the day you cant just cherry pick the contemporary aqcounts that suport your view.

[SuzieQ49]

By the way, Walcott's win-loss ratio was virtually identical after his return to the ring to that before his first retirement

Then why did Walcott defeat 12 different Ring Magazine top 10 rated Heavyweight contenders upon his return to the ring in 1944 compared to his ZERO defeats of Ring Magazine top 10 pre 1940?


Pre 1940 Walcott's best fighters he beat

Lorenzo Pack- great kayo percentage, not top 10
Willie Reddish- not top 10
Elmer Ray- Rays record was 3-4 when this fight took place

post 1944 Walcotts best fighters he beat

Joe Baksi- # 4 rated by Ring Magazine, 6'1 218lb
Joe Louis*- Hall of fame ATG heavyweight champion, undefeated past 11 years
Ezzard Charles- Hall of Fame Heavyweight Champion, undefeated in the past 4 years
Harold Johnson- Hall of Famer winner of 28 of first 29 fights, top 10 rated by Ring Magazine
Lee Q Murray- # 3 rated by Ring Magazine, 6'3 208lb Top 50 heavyweight of all time
Jimmy Bivins- # 1 rated by Ring Magazine, won his last 40 in a row as Duration Champion
Elmer Ray 2x- #2 rated by Ring Magazine, on a 66-1 winning streak
Joey Maxim 2x- Hall of Famer, top 10 by Ring Magazine both times
Hein Ten Hoff- Undefeated European Champion. 6'6 220lb with high knockout percentage
Tommy Gomez- top 10 by Ring Magazine, rated # 44 in Ring's greatest punchers of all time
Hatchetman Sheppard- top 10 by Ring Magazine, Rated in Ring's greatest punchers of all time
Omelio Agramonte- Top 10 by Ring Magazine who twice went the distance with Joe Louis

* Louis got the decision, but the consensus still remains to this day it is one of the top 10 worst robberies of all time




I would say the difference once he had Bocchichio and Florio as his Manager and Trainer compared to pre 1940 when he was a working hungry sick father trying to support a family is remarkable.

[Mendoza]

* the only criticism you can make of marciano is his management taking on a washed up Lee Savold instead of a young prime top contneder like Clarence Henry, Coley Wallace, Rematch Lastarza or Bob Baker who were all interested in fighting Marciano on that date. I would have liked to seen Marciano taken on either Baker or Henry in 51-52. That is my only criticism. Marciano cannot be criticised for taking on Cockell instead of Valdez, since marcianos management came to agreement to fight Valdez in the winter of 1955 in Miami so they already planned ahead to use cockell as a tuneup for a big fight with Valdez. Then Archie Moore made alot of noise how he deserved the megafight over Valdez, so Moore and Valdez squared off in the Final Title Eliminator to determine true # 1 contender and Moore clearly won a close but well deserved decision.

Not so. Why did Marciano give Charles a second title shot over a 1st title shot to a then hot Valdez? If you check the ring records of the fighters just before Charles vs Marciano II, it is clear Valdez was the better choice. As it was Valdez ascended to the rank of #1 Ring Magazine contender, but did not get his shot.

Marciano could have given Valdez his shot, but didn't. Instead they gave the shot to Charles again...even though Valdez had recently beaten Charles. In essense, Charles backed into a title shot, and was 2-2 ( I think ) in his last four fights leading up to the re-match with Rocky.

Had Charles beaten Valdez, I would have been fine with the selection of Charles. It seems Marciano's camp was not so eager to give Valdez a shot when he was hot.

[MrMarvel]

Valdes had his problems, but he was too great a risk for Marciano. Marciano needed fighters closer to his size, preferably smaller, because he didn't have the skills and size to deal with big men with adequate skills. Moore could deal with a Valdes because of superior skill and smarts. Moore was a much better boxer than Marciano and a lot smarter in the ring. Marciano could impose his will on a small smart boxer like Moore, but against a big adequate boxer like Valdes this becomes problematic. It seems clear to me that giving Charles a rematch was part of a strategy to avoid Valdes.

[MRBILL]

Valdes had his problems, but he was too great a risk for Marciano. Marciano needed fighters closer to his size, preferably smaller, because he didn't have the skills and size to deal with big men with adequate skills. Moore could deal with a Valdes because of superior skill and smarts. Moore was a much better boxer than Marciano and a lot smarter in the ring. Marciano could impose his will on a small smart boxer like Moore, but against a big adequate boxer like Valdes this becomes problematic. It seems clear to me that giving Charles a rematch was part of a strategy to avoid Valdes.

I don't know much about Valdez, but I know Marciano was only interested in fighting names that would draw good bank by 1954.... Charles was indeed slipping, but still capable in '54..... And, point being, Marciano earned damn good bank with them two fights with Ol' Buzzard Charles.....:yep

How Rocco got stuck defending against Don "The Cock" Cockell in '55 is anyone's guess.?.?:huh

"Marciano vs. Moore" was a great fight......:thumbsup

MR.BILL:hey

[Dempsey1238]

People seem to forget that Valez had a very poor showing in the next fight, (And he refuse the rematch with Charles) while Charles rebounded with kos over Shatterfiled and Wallace.

Marciano didnt duck Valez. Valez just had a few months in 1954, and other few in 55, before poor showings, and Archie Moore knock him off for good in 55.

It was relly nothing compare to say Harry Wills being number 1 for 7 years in a row.

[SuzieQ49]

Not so. Why did Marciano give Charles a second title shot over a 1st title shot to a then hot Valdez?

Because the first fight was such a close gruelling crowd pleasing battle, that they were forced to put on a show again a couple months later. and marciano wanted too prove he could knock charles out. You see, Marciano actually gave rematches after close fights, unlike larry holmes who ran away from rematches. Rematches are VERY important.

If you check the ring records of the fighters just before Charles vs Marciano II, it is clear Valdez was the better choice

So you want Marciano to fight Charles in June, then 2 months later in August take on Nino Valdez? what kind of hectic schedule is that? Give the man some time to train for Valdez. By the way Marciano's management SCHEDULED a fight between Marciano and Valdez for the winter of 1955 in MIAMI where it would draw because of the large Latino crowd. However, this drew huge criticism from Archie Moore, who had beaten valdez in 53 and had been calling out marciano for years. So the IBC reluctantly gave in and proposed a FINAL title eliminator between Moore vs Valdez winner a GAURANTEED shot to fight Marciano. However Valdez could not beat a overweight 38 year old man Archie Moore who outworked Valdez down the stretch for the close but clear decision. So Marciano fought his MANDATORY archie moore instead. Unlike holmes who dumps his WBC belt in the trash to avoid Page. Because of the loss to Archie, Valdez lost his winter date in Miami. HOWEVER, in November 20th of 1955 Rocky told the Chicago Daily Tribune he "wants a title fight with Valdez in june". Rocky wanted to have one more fight to get to # 50, then quit. HOWEVER, Valdez subsequetly lost a 12 round stinker with baker, then got shutout by a 180lb bob satterfield on the cards and once again BLEW HIS CHANCE at Marciano.



Marciano could have given Valdez his shot, but didn't. Instead they gave the shot to Charles again...even though Valdez had recently beaten Charles. .

Once again...If you just beat your #1 rated challenger in a 15 round gruelling fight that is CLOSE on the cards, then your pretty much expected to give a rematch and prove your superiority over him. It may be hard for you to understand because your boy larry holmes NEVER gave rematches after controversial decisions....but Rocky wanted to show the the world he could knock charles out. Plus the fans were calling for a rematch after a great first fight.

Valdez after the upset win over charles was still 1-4 in his last 5 fights...How could Marciano give a title shot to a man who was 1-4 in his last 5 fights? Valdez did not really establish himself as a true title challenger until early 1955 and at that point Marcianos management began negotiations with Gleason, Valdez manager and they came to a agreement for a winter date in Miami.



In essense, Charles backed into a title shot, and was 2-2 ( I think ) in his last four fights leading up to the re-match with Rocky

Your spinning facts around. You could say Charles won 11 out of his last 13 when he fought Rocky. Also if you want to go by numbers, when Valdez beat Charles...Nino was coming off a 1-4 record. So you want marciano to give a title shot to a man who went 1-4 in his last 5 fights?

After Charles win over top 10 rated Bob Satterfield in 1954 here is what the IBC had to say about Ezzard Charles....."Charles has earned the chance. It will not be necessary for him further to prove his right as the No. 1 contender." -Truman Gibson, IBC secretary, regarding Charles' shot at the title.




Ultimatley, I think history shows us Marciano gets far more credit for beating hall of fame # 1 rated Ezzard Charles than he would have if he beaten Nino Valdez. Perhaps your the only exception. Historians certainly agree with me.



but didn't. Instead they gave the shot to Charles again...even though Valdez had recently beaten Charles

If your going to be picky like this...then why don't you try to make a case for harold johnson. afterall, he beat BOTH ezzard charles AND nino valdez in 1953. Why should valdez and charles get a shot over johnson?

[Dempsey1238]

I don't know much about Valdez, but I know Marciano was only interested in fighting names that would draw good bank by 1954.... Charles was indeed slipping, but still capable in '54..... And, point being, Marciano earned damn good bank with them two fights with Ol' Buzzard Charles.....:yep

How Rocco got stuck defending against Don "The Cock" Cockell in '55 is anyone's guess.?.?:huh

"Marciano vs. Moore" was a great fight......:thumbsup

MR.BILL:hey

The Cockell fight was more a test run for the nose to see how it would hold up. If it came undone vs Cockell, Marciano at least could gamble with Cockell.

Besides, you would think after 2 fights with Walcott, one with LarSarza, and back to back wars with Charles, you think he was allow one of thsos give me title defenses.

Its like asking why did Ali defend against Wepner(After Foreman)
It was not like Patterson, one softy after other, while Machen and Folley were left in the cold.

[SuzieQ49]

Valdes had his problems, but he was too great a risk for Marciano. Marciano needed fighters closer to his size, preferably smaller, because he didn't have the skills and size to deal with big men with adequate skills. Moore could deal with a Valdes because of superior skill and smarts. Moore was a much better boxer than Marciano and a lot smarter in the ring. Marciano could impose his will on a small smart boxer like Moore, but against a big adequate boxer like Valdes this becomes problematic. It seems clear to me that giving Charles a rematch was part of a strategy to avoid Valdes.


Then can you explain to me why 5'10 185lb glass chinned Bob Satterfield outslugged Nino Valdez for 10 rounds, yet Marciano wouldn't be able too?


Marciano needed fighters closer to his size, preferably smaller, because he didn't have the skills and size to deal with big men with adequate skills


Then why did he take on and knockout 6'2 214lb Joe Louis? Was Nino Valdez better than Louis? I dont think so. Especially since Louis knocked out Valdez in one round in a live exhibition in 1950.

[MRBILL]

Marciano deserved a "Gimmie" defense by 1955........ Though Cockell was a stubborn son of a bitch.... I got that fight laying around here....

MR.BILL

[SuzieQ49]

Dont watch it Bill. Probably the rocks worst fight. You want to see rocky at his best, pop in his fights with Louis, Layne, and Walcott

[SuzieQ49]

Which Newspaper, the local one covering NY boxing? Bottom line is Vingo had a low KO%, and faced plenty of journeyman. He wasn't a puncher at all. If Vingo had better power, he have more Ko's on his resume.


New York Times for one. Also the Lowell Sun. and others. Also Reg Gutteridge described Vingo as a "very hard hitter". I have a great vingo article from new york times before the marciano fight sent to me by boxing historiand barry deskins. its great! Charlie Goldman told rocky specificully before the fight to watch Vingos power. Marciano claimed Vingo was the hardest hitter he'd faced. Does that not have merit?

Bob Satterfield had a low KO percentage, could he hit??? low ko percentage can be attributed to many things. Even Henry mentions he read newspaper articles that stated Vingo was a big puncher.

[hhascup]

New York Times for one. Also the Lowell Sun. and others. Also Reg Gutteridge described Vingo as a "very hard hitter". I have a great vingo article from new york times before the marciano fight sent to me by boxing historiand barry deskins. its great! Charlie Goldman told rocky specificully before the fight to watch Vingos power. Marciano claimed Vingo was the hardest hitter he'd faced. Does that not have merit?

Bob Satterfield had a low KO percentage, could he hit??? low ko percentage can be attributed to many things. Even Henry mentions he read newspaper articles that stated Vingo was a big puncher.


Yes, I read it in several places. Here's the facts

Of the 7 bouts Vingo won by knocked out, their combined record was 45-107-4 and was stopped a total of 65 times by the end of their career.

Of the 9 bouts that Vingo won by decision, their combined record was 71-96-4 and was stopped a total of 39 times by the end of their career.

Of the 2 fighters (Marciano & Lindsay) that beat him, their combined record was 77-7-2 and was stopped only once.

Maybe he was a powerful puncher BUT wasn't a good finisher. I really can't explain why he didn't have a lot more KO's if he was such a powerful puncher. He fought Washington twice, and failed to KO him either time. Washington was KO'ed 17 times during his career.

As far as Satterfield goes, he was an outstanding puncher, he had 35 KO's in his 50 wins and 79 bouts and he also fought a lot better competition then Vingo did.

[SuzieQ49]

Maybe he was a powerful puncher BUT wasn't a good finisher

Thats my interpretation. Marciano had a steel chin, and it seems to me Vingo was the closest to floor Marciano before Walcott. Hit marciano with a right hand that send rocky roaring backwards shaking his head apparently.

As far as Satterfield goes, he was an outstanding puncher, he had 35 KO's in his 50 wins and 79 bouts and he also fought a lot better competition then Vingo did.

Obviously, but satterfield DID have a low knockout percentage for such a devastating puncher. Same with Hatchetman Sheppard.

[hhascup]

Thats my interpretation. Marciano had a steel chin, and it seems to me Vingo was the closest to floor Marciano before Walcott. Hit marciano with a right hand that send rocky roaring backwards shaking his head apparently.



Obviously, but satterfield DID have a low knockout percentage for such a devastating puncher. Same with Hatchetman Sheppard.

Agreed

[MRBILL]

Dont watch it Bill. Probably the rocks worst fight. You want to see rocky at his best, pop in his fights with Louis, Layne, and Walcott

"Marciano-Louis" is my favorite and most painful to review of my tapes.... Every time I review my tape / tapes, I hope Louis can pull-it-out and win.... But he never does..... Louis keeps getting stopped / parked in the 8th stanza.....
:|

"Marciano-Walcott 1" is my # 2 fight I like of Rocco's...... Jesus, being ringside for that fight back in '52 would've been a major woody popper for me.......
:hey

I suppose "Marciano-Moore" from '55 is my # 3 fight of Rocco's to review.... I always liked Moore, but he was out-gunned in a classic fight...
:bbb

I never cared for Ol' Buzzard Charles..... I respected him, but he was too bland for me..... He lacked imagination..... Though a good boxer with skill...
:deal

SR.BILLARDO:rasta

[SuzieQ49]

Good stuff Billl! you seem to be a 1970s fan. What do you think about Mac Foster?

[HomicideHenry]

Cockell sure as hell was game. But man oh man, he was knocked from pillar to post. I recall Marciano hitting Cockell with a forearm smash, and Cockell fell into the ropes, saved by the bell. I forget which round it was. In later years Marciano would joke during his television series that he didn't expect a fat guy like Cockell to actually come and give him a fight.

[HomicideHenry]

Btw, Brocky wasnt it true, though, that Marciano was also set to fight Earl Walls? But, of course, Marciano retired and named his top challengers to face off for his vacant crown.

[MRBILL]

Good stuff Billl! you seem to be a 1970s fan. What do you think about Mac Foster?

I never really knew a whole lot about Big Mac Foster..... I know Ali worked him over in '72 pretty well....... By the time, I was watching fights like "Ali-Young" on the tube in '76, Big Mac Foster was pretty much outta the picture....

However, yes, I am a 70s freak...... All my heavyweights performed then and the tube had the best TV shows of all-time.... Boxing was free on Wide World of Sports except for certain "Ali" fights...:nut

"Columbo, Kung Fu, Starsky & Hutch, Baretta, McCloud, Rockford Files, Emergency, Quincy, Night Gallery, Barney Miller, Sanford and Son, McMillan and Wife & Streets of San Francisco" is what I liked to watch....
:good
Of course my Rock bands were really young and rockin' out back then, too.... Today, I still listen to all the Dinosaur bands from the 60s and 70s............:D

I like the "Retro" era.....:yep

MR.BILL:bbb

[JIm Broughton]

Suzie Q brought up some good points while dissecting my previous post but I still maintain that rocky would have a very tough time with the more modern bigger and skilled HW's of the later years. As for the fact that there were big heavies such as Baker,Valdez etc. during Rocky's time raises the question, why didn't Rocky fight them? Regardless of rank it would've been interesting to see how Rocky would've done against these more modern sized HW's wouldn't it? I may be wrong but wasn't Valdez a ranked contender at the time Marciano was champ? If so then why didn't Marciano take him on? Or Baker or some of the other big boys? Maybe Al Weil knew better. The man was shrewd after all and certainly wouldn't risk losing his greatest asset. Pure speculation but it does make you wonder. And while Rocky was good at slipping a jab, could he slip a good consistent jab from a skilled HW with an 80"reach. Ali, Holmes, Norton all had good jabs and a reach that long plus they utilized it to a greater extent than Rocky's opposition did. I've yet to see on film Rocky slipping 3 or 4 good hard fast jabs in a row from a skilled big tall HW the size of Ali or Holmes or Norton. Slipping an occasional jab from a 6' 185-190lb 74" (Or thereabout) opponent is a quite a bit different ball of wax than slipping Ali's much faster jab or Holmes' ramrod jab or Norton's vastly underrated jab. Tyson didn't have a long reach but his upper body movement was light years faster than Rocky's was, in his prime anyway as were his handspeed and combination punching. This enabled him to close the gap quickly and land blisteringly fast combinations on his taller opponents.I'm not saying that Rocky would have no chance against these men but I think his overall dimensions and relative lack of speed would certainly make it difficult. Rocky would be absorbing a lot of shots from these men while trying to close the gap. And these punches would come faster than what he was accustomed to dealing with. The overall quality of good big men generally improved from the 50's to the 70's. There were no Ali's or Holmes' or Norton's or Foreman's in the 50's (Or Frazier's either. Can't leave out Smokin' Joe). That's not a rap on Marciano who is certainly an all time great. It's just an honest assesment of the times.

[Bummy Davis]

Suzie Q brought up some good points while dissecting my previous post but I still maintain that rocky would have a very tough time with the more modern bigger and skilled HW's of the later years. As for the fact that there were big heavies such as Baker,Valdez etc. during Rocky's time raises the question, why didn't Rocky fight them? Regardless of rank it would've been interesting to see how Rocky would've done against these more modern sized HW's wouldn't it? I may be wrong but wasn't Valdez a ranked contender at the time Marciano was champ? If so then why didn't Marciano take him on? Or Baker or some of the other big boys? Maybe Al Weil knew better. The man was shrewd after all and certainly wouldn't risk losing his greatest asset. Pure speculation but it does make you wonder. And while Rocky was good at slipping a jab, could he slip a good consistent jab from a skilled HW with an 80"reach. Ali, Holmes, Norton all had good jabs and a reach that long plus they utilized it to a greater extent than Rocky's opposition did. I've yet to see on film Rocky slipping 3 or 4 good hard fast jabs in a row from a skilled big tall HW the size of Ali or Holmes or Norton. Slipping an occasional jab from a 6' 185-190lb 74" (Or thereabout) opponent is a quite a bit different ball of wax than slipping Ali's much faster jab or Holmes' ramrod jab or Norton's vastly underrated jab. Tyson didn't have a long reach but his upper body movement was light years faster than Rocky's was, in his prime anyway as were his handspeed and combination punching. This enabled him to close the gap quickly and land blisteringly fast combinations on his taller opponents.I'm not saying that Rocky would have no chance against these men but I think his overall dimensions and relative lack of speed would certainly make it difficult. Rocky would be absorbing a lot of shots from these men while trying to close the gap. And these punches would come faster than what he was accustomed to dealing with. The overall quality of good big men generally improved from the 50's to the 70's. There were no Ali's or Holmes' or Norton's or Foreman's in the 50's (Or Frazier's either. Can't leave out Smokin' Joe). That's not a rap on Marciano who is certainly an all time great. It's just an honest assesment of the times.

I dont know Doug Jones did pretty good vs Ali and Doug was not Ezzard Charles or JJWalcott...I think it boils down to talent power,conditioning and will...A great big man( How many were there in the last 100 yrs ?) can beat a Great small man but some small men like Marciano,Sam Langford are not short in power or the other virtues I listed above, yes they were freaks of nature. Marciano was one of the hardest punching heavyweights dispite his size....There were no Charles, Walcotts, Moores in the 70's had there been the may have not been Nortons or Foremans and Frazier and Ali would have had there hands full.

[MRBILL]

:D:roll::bbb

[MRBILL]

Off topic.... But I just recorded the new 2007 remake of "Halloween." Rocker 'Robert Zombie' did a fine job with the Michael Myers tale........... Good stuff..... I crave brutality and gore........ Cheers.....

MR.BILL:yikes:deal:bbb:rasta:admin:good:scaredas:

[SuzieQ49]

As for the fact that there were big heavies such as Baker,Valdez etc. during Rocky's time raises the question, why didn't Rocky fight them? Regardless of rank it would've been interesting to see how Rocky would've done against these more modern sized HW's wouldn't it? I may be wrong but wasn't Valdez a ranked contender at the time Marciano was champ? If so then why didn't Marciano take him on? Or Baker or some of the other big boys?


Rocky Marciano fought # 2 rated 6'2 214lb Joe Louis. Same size as Baker and Valdez. Is Louis not a good enough opponent for you? Louis was just as big and rated just as high as those guys, except a better fighter.

You want an explanation on Marciano-Valdez?

Marciano's management SCHEDULED a fight between Marciano and Valdez for the winter of 1955 in MIAMI where it would draw because of the large Latino crowd. However, this drew huge criticism from Archie Moore, who had beaten valdez in 53 and had been calling out marciano for years. So the IBC reluctantly gave in and proposed a FINAL title eliminator between Moore vs Valdez winner a GAURANTEED shot to fight Marciano. However Valdez could not beat a overweight 38 year old man Archie Moore who outworked Valdez down the stretch for the close but clear decision. So Marciano fought his MANDATORY archie moore instead. Unlike holmes who dumps his WBC belt in the trash to avoid Page. Because of the loss to Archie, Valdez lost his winter date in Miami. HOWEVER, in November 20th of 1955 Rocky told the Chicago Daily Tribune he "wants a title fight with Valdez in june". Rocky wanted to have one more fight to get to # 50, then quit. HOWEVER, Valdez subsequetly lost a 12 round stinker with baker, then got shutout by a 180lb bob satterfield on the cards and once again BLEW HIS CHANCE at Marciano.



I've yet to see on film Rocky slipping 3 or 4 good hard fast jabs in a row from a skilled big tall HW the size of Ali or Holmes or Norton. Slipping an occasional jab from a 6' 185-190lb 74" (Or thereabout) opponent is a quite a bit different ball of wax than slipping Ali's much faster jab or Holmes' ramrod jab or Norton's vastly underrated jab.


Ive seen him slip 3 jabs in a row vs a 6'2 214lb # 2 rated contender, some guy named joe louis. Louis had a fantastic jab.

[MRBILL]

I love this thread / piece.......

MR.BILL:hey:good:bbb

[MRBILL]

Cockell sure as hell was game. But man oh man, he was knocked from pillar to post. I recall Marciano hitting Cockell with a forearm smash, and Cockell fell into the ropes, saved by the bell. I forget which round it was. In later years Marciano would joke during his television series that he didn't expect a fat guy like Cockell to actually come and give him a fight.

I saw the "Main Event" version in which Rocco stated that some asshole entered his dressing room upon the ring entrance claiming that Don "The Cock" Cockell was a bum, and then Rocco Marciano claimed that statement fucked with his head / focus... Maybe it was true, but, I smelled some bullshit there.... I agree with many that R.M. was slipping by 1955, and Marciano knew it, as well.....:hey

Rocky Marciano was wise to retire in 1956........:hey

MR.BILL:deal:bbb

Note:

I have been scoffed at for claiming that Floyd Patterson "MIGHT" have done in Marciano in late '56 or 1957, had Marciano carried onward with boxing......:D Just a thought........
:deal:yikes

[HomicideHenry]

There was talk of having Patterson/Marciano fight actually. At the time it was to be scheduled as an exhibition only, two or three rounds, and be broadcast on Tuesday Night Fights. But, nobody bought it, was no interest, unless it was a real fight, if not for the championship. Patterson at the time, I think, had just had a handful of fights at HW.

After his retirement Marciano was asked by a group of school children how he would fair against the new champ Floyd Patterson. Marciano's answer was both humble and blunt:

"If I said I could beat him, you would think I was bragging. If I said I couldn't, then I would be lying."

For a man who easily hammered Tommy Jackson in training camp, who would later give Patterson trouble in the ring, I think in my honest to God opinion, Marciano would have eventually gotten to Floyd and would have knocked him out, probably in 10-12 rounds.

[Mendoza]

Yes, I read it in several places. Here's the facts

Of the 7 bouts Vingo won by knocked out, their combined record was 45-107-4 and was stopped a total of 65 times by the end of their career.

Of the 9 bouts that Vingo won by decision, their combined record was 71-96-4 and was stopped a total of 39 times by the end of their career.

Of the 2 fighters (Marciano & Lindsay) that beat him, their combined record was 77-7-2 and was stopped only once.

Maybe he was a powerful puncher BUT wasn't a good finisher. I really can't explain why he didn't have a lot more KO's if he was such a powerful puncher. He fought Washington twice, and failed to KO him either time. Washington was KO'ed 17 times during his career.

As far as Satterfield goes, he was an outstanding puncher, he had 35 KO's in his 50 wins and 79 bouts and he also fought a lot better competition then Vingo did.

This is how I see it too. Vingo wasn't a puncher at all. Case closed here.

Satterfield could hit, but his competition level was much higher.

[Mendoza]

Valdes had his problems, but he was too great a risk for Marciano. Marciano needed fighters closer to his size, preferably smaller, because he didn't have the skills and size to deal with big men with adequate skills. Moore could deal with a Valdes because of superior skill and smarts. Moore was a much better boxer than Marciano and a lot smarter in the ring. Marciano could impose his will on a small smart boxer like Moore, but against a big adequate boxer like Valdes this becomes problematic. It seems clear to me that giving Charles a rematch was part of a strategy to avoid Valdes.

Archie Moore was a good boxer and had a reach of at least 76". Thus he and could employ a strategy of boxing a bigger fighter like Valdez from the outside far better than Marciano could. It is obvious Marciano did not select Valdez for reasons, and I think part of it was Valdes size and style, easy win over Charles, and perhaps lack of drawing power.

Valdez was big for this time. He had some skills, but was also a bit soft hearted at times, and tended to shy away from the rougher parts of boxing. I tend to think Marciano would defeat Valdes the same way Sattefield did on film. Then again, Rocky appeared to be slipping on film vs Cockell and Moore, and was behind on points vs a good boxer in LaStarza until round 6 when a mix of fouls, and legal blows started to limited LaStarza mobility and activity.

So perhaps Valdes would be have a chance of either looking good or pulling off the upset vs the 1954 Marciano, or 1955 Marciano.

[he grant]

Two questions:

Who says Marciano would have remained unbeaten if he fought say 1965 - 1975 ?

Who says Marciano remains unbeaten if he fought 1988 - 1998 ?

I say he has a completely different career ....

[Bummy Davis]

Archie Moore was a good boxer and had a reach of at least 76". Thus he and could employ a strategy of boxing a bigger fighter like Valdez from the outside far better than Marciano could. It is obvious Marciano did not select Valdez for reasons, and I think part of it was Valdes size and style, easy win over Charles, and perhaps lack of drawing power.

Valdez was big for this time. He had some skills, but was also a bit soft hearted at times, and tended to shy away from the rougher parts of boxing. I tend to think Marciano would defeat Valdes the same way Sattefield did on film. Then again, Rocky appeared to be slipping on film vs Cockell and Moore, and was behind on points vs a good boxer in LaStarza until round 6 when a mix of fouls, and legal blows started to limited LaStarza mobility and activity.

So perhaps Valdes would be have a chance of either looking good or pulling off the upset vs the 1954 Marciano, or 1955 Marciano.


I remember Joe Frazier beating Terry Daniels and Ron Stander all over the ring and he was critisized for not KOing them quicker or more impressive and theses guys were not top 20 contenders...Cockel fought to survive but he got hammered...it was not an impressive fight for Marciano but those fight are hard to get up for. As far as Valdez Marciano wanted to fight him but Valdez lost 2 times to Archie Moore, lost to Baker,Johnson,Moore and Billy Gilliam in 53 4 in a row, then had a decent 54, although most felt he lost the fight to Archie McBride ...Moore deserved the title shot over Valdez and was the tougher of the 2...then Marciano wanted to end his career with his 50th win but Valdez was soundly beaten by 180 lb Bob Satterfield and dropped for a 9 count in the 10th rd...making him unmarketable for a title shot...Satterfeild was already destoyed in 2 rds by Ezzard Charles

[Mendoza]

I remember Joe Frazier beating Terry Daniels and Ron Stander all over the ring and he was critisized for not KOing them quicker or more impressive and theses guys were not top 20 contenders...Cockel fought to survive but he got hammered...it was not an impressive fight for Marciano but those fight are hard to get up for. As far as Valdez Marciano wanted to fight him but Valdez lost 2 times to Archie Moore, lost to Baker,Johnson,Moore and Billy Gilliam in 53 4 in a row, then had a decent 54, although most felt he lost the fight to Archie McBride ...Moore deserved the title shot over Valdez and was the tougher of the 2...then Marciano wanted to end his career with his 50th win but
Valdez was soundly beaten by 180 lb Bob Satterfield and dropped for a 9 count in the 10th rd...making him unmarketable for a title shot...Satterfeild was already destoyed in 2 rds by Ezzard Charles

Frazier had his knees buckled by Stander. I never saw the Daniels match, but I did read that Frazier did not look good here.

If you look at Valdez winning streak and record prior to the 2nd match with Charles, there is no doubt he deserved that title shot.

I agree that Vladez did tail off after Moore beat him, but surely he was more worthy than the 2nd match with Charles, or the Cockell defense in that time line.

[he grant]

Frazier did not have his kneesbuckled against Stander ... I have the fight, have watched it many times and Frazier crushed him in a one sided affair .. where exactly did Ron buckle Joe's knees ?

[MRBILL]

Ron Stander kinda' reminded me of a 70s version of Scott Frank..... A big white boy with a chin, but not much skill..... "Frazier-Stander" fought in Stander's backyard in Nebraska... I too, own a copy.........

Myself, I never saw Frazier fight Terrence Daniels.... Wasn't Daniels a blown-up Middleweight?

MR.BILL

[HomicideHenry]

Two questions:

Who says Marciano would have remained unbeaten if he fought say 1965 - 1975 ?

Who says Marciano remains unbeaten if he fought 1988 - 1998 ?

I say he has a completely different career ....

1960's-1970's Marciano's career would have been different, but imo, he would have been up there right alongside Ali, Liston, Frazier, Foreman and Norton. Even if you disagree, being #6 behind those five isn't bad at all.

1980's I think Marciano would have gotten the same 48-0-0 that Holmes did. The era was one of the worst in history, though imo, not as bad as the era today post Lewis. 1990's would have been the same as the 1960's and 1970's, with Marciano alongside Tyson, Holyfield, Bowe and Lewis. Again, being #5 isnt too bad behind those four.

[SuzieQ49]

This is how I see it too. Vingo wasn't a puncher at all. Case closed here.

How is this case closed? you have never named me a source that stated vingo was not a puncher. I have named 3 sources that claimed vingo was a very hard hitter.

[SuzieQ49]

Let me first say I do find it very interesting you seem to really harp on this Valdez issue, while you never bring up Bob Baker. Bob Baker vs Nino Valdez I I have on film, and Baker showed to me he was the better of two big men. Not suprisingly, baker beat valdez again by WIDE decision 2 years later. I would be more interested in hearing how Bob Baker would have given Rocky Marciano a tough fight in 1951-1952 rather than Rocky not fighting Nino Valdez, who did not pocess the qualities baker did to trouble rocky.

Lets Start: How exactley is Valdez going to pull off the upset vs Marciano? what he have outside of his jab that could give rocky major problems? I would say rocky has many assets that would give Valdez major issues. Valdez is going to be coming right into to Marciano and trade, not exactley a wise stradegy.


Archie Moore was a good boxer and had a reach of at least 76". Thus he and could employ a strategy of boxing a bigger fighter like Valdez from the outside far better than Marciano could.

Did you read a fight report? Moore didn't box Valdez. he outslugged him. This was a war both trading blows, moore showed up out of shape at 196lb but still outfought Nino down the stretch and won the 13-15th rounds going away. Valdez got outworked by a 38 year old puffed up lightheavyweight down the stretch. Can you imagine what kind of mess Marciano would do to Valdez down the stretch? Don't forget Marciano absolutey hammred this same version of Moore months later.

It is obvious Marciano did not select Valdez for reasons

Marciano stated on June 20th November of 1955 in Chicago Tribune "I want to fight Nino Valdez in June for my 50th fight". What is this about marciano not selecting Valdez?


and I think part of it was Valdes size and style


1. Size- Rocky already fought 6'2 214lb Hall of Fame Joe Louis, you think he would be scared to fight someone of equal size who had nowhere near the reputation of Louis?

2. Style- Valdez lost to 5'10 Satterfield, 5'10 Johnson, 5'11 Moore, and was lucky to escape out a decision over 5'10 Mcbride. I would have to say that a 5'11 Marciano with his low crouch, Top Power in both hands, amazing workrate, Steel chin, great stamina would have the style advantage over Valdez who had a history of losing to short fighters. Don't forget, Marciano never lost.

* On a side note, John Garfield once told me about a sparring session between Marciano and Valdez he witnessed. According to him, when the bell rang to end the sparring session, Valdez walked out of the ring with a look on his face like he had just been through hell. This is exactley what he would have had to go through to beat Marciano, and Valdez just didn't have IT.

easy win over Charles

whats ur definition of an "easy" win? If one round gets changed on two of the judges scorecards, then the fight is a majority draw. I would hardly call that an easy victory, especially since charles swept the early rounds. When you take into account, Valdez was an unheralded journeyman at the time and charles showed up to the fight at a career high soft 192lb, then it would not be out of the world to say Charles took Valdez lightly. This was such a big upset, that NBA issued a rematch IMMEDIATELY for charles and valdez to fight again. Charles accepted, while Valdes declined. Lastly, what does you talk about styles, but what does ezzard charles stylistically have in similiar with Marciano? Probably nothing. Charles was a slick defensive counterpuncher, while Rocky was a puncher-Swarmer. A Valdez win over charles, shows nothing what a fight with Rocky would be like. Besides, Rocky beat up a 185lb Trimmer Ezzard Charles just as badly on the cards, and knocked out Ezzard Charles something Nino was unable to do.




Ezzard Charles said in retirement "I fought the worst fight of my career when I fought Valdez and he gave me a licking. I wanted a rematch but never got one."

Nino Valdez said in his interview on cyberboxing "Charles was really something special in the ring".


and perhaps lack of drawing power.

Well Valdez drew well in the Miami area, where there was a large latino crowd which is why a winter date in 1955 was scheduled between marciano and valdes. In fact, if you want to go earlier, Charlie Goldman went to Al Weill in Early 1954 and told Weill he wanted Rocky Marciano to fight Nino Valdez as a TUNEUP for his june date with Ezzard Charles, so he wouldnt go in the ring rusty for Ezz. Weill said "No". I got this source from Boxing Historian who's name wishs to be kept secret, he posts here under the name "Albinored".

Valdez was big for this time

So was Joe Louis in 1951. Louis actually knocked Nino Valdez out in 1 round.


He had some skills, but was also a bit soft hearted at times, and tended to shy away from the rougher parts of boxing

Yet you think he has a chance against a ruthless skilled puncher-swarmer like Marciano who did nothing but take your heart and soul away in the championship rounds?

I tend to think Marciano would defeat Valdes the same way Sattefield did on film.

Marciano was alot better than Satterfield. I think Nino would be competitive early on with his jab and long reach, but a big slugger like valdez was made in order for the Rock because he would be standing there for the rock to be hitting him and rock has too much firepower in a ******* for Valdez. Valdez was given huge problems when satterfield would get low in a crouch and slip the jab and counter with a huge overhand right. This was Rockys forte, he might knock valdez out with one punch if this happens in the fight. Also what happens as the fight goes into the championship rounds, how is valdez going to deal with tha kind of workrate aggresion and stamina? Valdez was not strong mentally. he could be broken down in that regard.

Then again, Rocky appeared to be slipping on film vs Cockell and Moore, and was behind on points vs a good boxer in LaStarza until round 6 when a mix of fouls, and legal blows started to limited LaStarza mobility and activity.



You say hes slipping in these fights which may be true, but dont forget even the "slipping" marciano absolutley dominated a fighter(Archie Moore) who beat Valdez a couple months prior.


and was behind on points vs a good boxer in LaStarza until round 6 when a mix of fouls, and legal blows started to limited LaStarza mobility and activity.

It wasn't fouls, it was just a bunch of legal punch after punch which would hit lastarza anywhere and everywhere breaking him down. Lastarza suffered broken blood vessels and chipped bones in his forearms. Lets remember, Lastarza was a defensive counterpuncher. he fought on the backfoot backing away from marciano. Valdez was a standup slugger who would come right into marciano. I dont see how Valdez can come into marciano and survive that assualt. Marciano is not a good matchup for Nino, especially as the fight goes to the latter rounds where Nino had a history of folding.

So perhaps Valdes would be have a chance of either looking good or pulling off the upset vs the 1954 Marciano, or 1955 Marciano

This is a very bold statement. Valdez only chance is an early knockout, and this is not happening because marciano was too strong and durable. Also if Valdez comes into marciano, he might find himself on the floor right away. This is playing into Rock'y strengths. If the fight goes into the championship rounds, no way can valdez keep up with the humanwindmill Marciano of round 15 vs Charles or round 6 vs Moore. Valdez would break mentally and physically. If Valdez fights smart and uses his awesome left jab, and picks his shots he will find success vs rocky early, but how long can this last? Rocky eventually will find his way in and start wearing Nino down. Rocky had a very good jab slipping rate, so Nino's jab is not going to be able to control rocky. I think Rocky can take Nino's best stuff(I doubt visa verca). It was the fast pinpoint shots that you didnt see coming rocky was more susceptible too. Even if we compare common opponents during 1954-1955 Rocky performed better against Charles and Moore than Valdez did. I dont see how anyone could make a case for a Valdez upset. But please I would love to hear how he would be able to upset rocky?

[mr. magoo]

Off topic.... But I just recorded the new 2007 remake of "Halloween." Rocker 'Robert Zombie' did a fine job with the Michael Myers tale........... Good stuff..... I crave brutality and gore........ Cheers.....

MR.BILL:yikes:deal:bbb:rasta:admin:good:scaredas:

Agreed,

I was skeptical when I first went to go see it in the theatre in the fall of '07. But, I left pleasantly surprised. There were some brutal scenes in there that I could have done without, such as that kid getting beat to death with a stick. Overall though, I thought it was masterfully done and most entertaining. He basically summed up everything in one film, that John Carpenter took two films to do.

[markedwardscott]

The Rock by kayo. Norton was good against boxers, not sluggers.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[HomicideHenry]

Ron Stander kinda' reminded me of a 70s version of Scott Frank..... A big white boy with a chin, but not much skill..... "Frazier-Stander" fought in Stander's backyard in Nebraska... I too, own a copy.........

Myself, I never saw Frazier fight Terrence Daniels.... Wasn't Daniels a blown-up Middleweight?

MR.BILL

Stander/Frazier is one of my favorite fights tbh. While I think many truly believed he had no chance, Stander was game as hell and was one of the few men I seen who could stand toe to toe with Joe Frazier. Even busted up, the man still kept coming forward. I think if he was allowed to continue on, he would have fought until he couldn't no more. Stander was a true warrior. I hate that he is seldom brought up in heavyweight discussions.

As for Terry Daniels, I know little about him, and the only fight I ever seen him on film was him taking part in the 'Toronto Five' exhibition against George Foreman. Unfortunately for him, Foreman was a man lost but on a mission that night, I dont think anyone involved in the contest won a single round against Foreman.

BUT, no he wasnt a blown up middleweight, for most of his career he fought at around 195. Small for a heavyweight then, but, he certainly wasnt coming up from a smaller division to fight heavyweights.

[HomicideHenry]

Frazier did not have his kneesbuckled against Stander ... I have the fight, have watched it many times and Frazier crushed him in a one sided affair .. where exactly did Ron buckle Joe's knees ?

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Take a look at five minutes, four seconds...

Ron Stander said once, when asked if Frazier's knees buckled: "All I am saying is he got hit, yeah."

[red cobra]

Marciano would have eventually, after battering the shit out of his arms, and breaking MILLIONS of blood vessels, ko'ed COLD Ken Norton. Norton, the guy who never dealt well with a puncher, a guy who he knew could hurt him...meet the guy who could REALLY hurt you.

[Bummy Davis]

Let me first say I do find it very interesting you seem to really harp on this Valdez issue, while you never bring up Bob Baker. Bob Baker vs Nino Valdez I I have on film, and Baker showed to me he was the better of two big men. Not suprisingly, baker beat valdez again by WIDE decision 2 years later. I would be more interested in hearing how Bob Baker would have given Rocky Marciano a tough fight in 1951-1952 rather than Rocky not fighting Nino Valdez, who did not pocess the qualities baker did to trouble rocky.

Lets Start: How exactley is Valdez going to pull off the upset vs Marciano? what he have outside of his jab that could give rocky major problems? I would say rocky has many assets that would give Valdez major issues. Valdez is going to be coming right into to Marciano and trade, not exactley a wise stradegy.




Did you read a fight report? Moore didn't box Valdez. he outslugged him. This was a war both trading blows, moore showed up out of shape at 196lb but still outfought Nino down the stretch and won the 13-15th rounds going away. Valdez got outworked by a 38 year old puffed up lightheavyweight down the stretch. Can you imagine what kind of mess Marciano would do to Valdez down the stretch? Don't forget Marciano absolutey hammred this same version of Moore months later.



Marciano stated on June 20th November of 1955 in Chicago Tribune "I want to fight Nino Valdez in June for my 50th fight". What is this about marciano not selecting Valdez?





1. Size- Rocky already fought 6'2 214lb Hall of Fame Joe Louis, you think he would be scared to fight someone of equal size who had nowhere near the reputation of Louis?

2. Style- Valdez lost to 5'10 Satterfield, 5'10 Johnson, 5'11 Moore, and was lucky to escape out a decision over 5'10 Mcbride. I would have to say that a 5'11 Marciano with his low crouch, Top Power in both hands, amazing workrate, Steel chin, great stamina would have the style advantage over Valdez who had a history of losing to short fighters. Don't forget, Marciano never lost.

* On a side note, John Garfield once told me about a sparring session between Marciano and Valdez he witnessed. According to him, when the bell rang to end the sparring session, Valdez walked out of the ring with a look on his face like he had just been through hell. This is exactley what he would have had to go through to beat Marciano, and Valdez just didn't have IT.



whats ur definition of an "easy" win? If one round gets changed on two of the judges scorecards, then the fight is a majority draw. I would hardly call that an easy victory, especially since charles swept the early rounds. When you take into account, Valdez was an unheralded journeyman at the time and charles showed up to the fight at a career high soft 192lb, then it would not be out of the world to say Charles took Valdez lightly. This was such a big upset, that NBA issued a rematch IMMEDIATELY for charles and valdez to fight again. Charles accepted, while Valdes declined. Lastly, what does you talk about styles, but what does ezzard charles stylistically have in similiar with Marciano? Probably nothing. Charles was a slick defensive counterpuncher, while Rocky was a puncher-Swarmer. A Valdez win over charles, shows nothing what a fight with Rocky would be like. Besides, Rocky beat up a 185lb Trimmer Ezzard Charles just as badly on the cards, and knocked out Ezzard Charles something Nino was unable to do.




Ezzard Charles said in retirement "I fought the worst fight of my career when I fought Valdez and he gave me a licking. I wanted a rematch but never got one."

Nino Valdez said in his interview on cyberboxing "Charles was really something special in the ring".




Well Valdez drew well in the Miami area, where there was a large latino crowd which is why a winter date in 1955 was scheduled between marciano and valdes. In fact, if you want to go earlier, Charlie Goldman went to Al Weill in Early 1954 and told Weill he wanted Rocky Marciano to fight Nino Valdez as a TUNEUP for his june date with Ezzard Charles, so he wouldnt go in the ring rusty for Ezz. Weill said "No". I got this source from Boxing Historian who's name wishs to be kept secret, he posts here under the name "Albinored".



So was Joe Louis in 1951. Louis actually knocked Nino Valdez out in 1 round.




Yet you think he has a chance against a ruthless skilled puncher-swarmer like Marciano who did nothing but take your heart and soul away in the championship rounds?



Marciano was alot better than Satterfield. I think Nino would be competitive early on with his jab and long reach, but a big slugger like valdez was made in order for the Rock because he would be standing there for the rock to be hitting him and rock has too much firepower in a ******* for Valdez. Valdez was given huge problems when satterfield would get low in a crouch and slip the jab and counter with a huge overhand right. This was Rockys forte, he might knock valdez out with one punch if this happens in the fight. Also what happens as the fight goes into the championship rounds, how is valdez going to deal with tha kind of workrate aggresion and stamina? Valdez was not strong mentally. he could be broken down in that regard.



You say hes slipping in these fights which may be true, but dont forget even the "slipping" marciano absolutley dominated a fighter(Archie Moore) who beat Valdez a couple months prior.




It wasn't fouls, it was just a bunch of legal punch after punch which would hit lastarza anywhere and everywhere breaking him down. Lastarza suffered broken blood vessels and chipped bones in his forearms. Lets remember, Lastarza was a defensive counterpuncher. he fought on the backfoot backing away from marciano. Valdez was a standup slugger who would come right into marciano. I dont see how Valdez can come into marciano and survive that assualt. Marciano is not a good matchup for Nino, especially as the fight goes to the latter rounds where Nino had a history of folding.



This is a very bold statement. Valdez only chance is an early knockout, and this is not happening because marciano was too strong and durable. Also if Valdez comes into marciano, he might find himself on the floor right away. This is playing into Rock'y strengths. If the fight goes into the championship rounds, no way can valdez keep up with the humanwindmill Marciano of round 15 vs Charles or round 6 vs Moore. Valdez would break mentally and physically. If Valdez fights smart and uses his awesome left jab, and picks his shots he will find success vs rocky early, but how long can this last? Rocky eventually will find his way in and start wearing Nino down. Rocky had a very good jab slipping rate, so Nino's jab is not going to be able to control rocky. I think Rocky can take Nino's best stuff(I doubt visa verca). It was the fast pinpoint shots that you didnt see coming rocky was more susceptible too. Even if we compare common opponents during 1954-1955 Rocky performed better against Charles and Moore than Valdez did. I dont see how anyone could make a case for a Valdez upset. But please I would love to hear how he would be able to upset rocky?


very facual....Valdes lost 4 in a row in 53 Moore,Baker,Johnson,Gilliam...he went on to win a few and got a close nod of a less the in shape Charles...Charles went on to beat Gilliam and then KO Coley Wallace and Satterfeild who owned Valdes. So overcoming 4 stait losses in 53 then having a winning year in 54 ( although most felt he lost to Archie McBride) then Valdes lost badly to Archie Moore who jumped to # 1 for title shot.. then Valdes lost badly to Satterfeild...Rocky wanted to make him # 50 but fight would not have been marketable....Rocky would have KO'd Valdes and Norton as well....Marciano was all wrong for Ken

[Bummy Davis]

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Take a look at five minutes, four seconds...

Ron Stander said once, when asked if Frazier's knees buckled: "All I am saying is he got hit, yeah."

Stander landed some good ones on Frazier and Stander did ko an unknown Earnie Shavers in war slugfest when both were young...Shame Stander never really trained or had the teaching or training to be the best he could be...he never took boxing serious

[SuzieQ49]

Mendoza has still not commented on my above post. I just found an old Quote of Mendoza's

Jeffries actually gave fighters who put up good fights vs him re-matches in title fights.


Now Mendoza you said this quote a year ago, but I trust you stand by it. Here is my response to one of your other qotes.....


"but surely Valdes was more worthy than the 2nd match with Charles,"


My response to this is Marciano actually gave fighters who put up good fights vs him re-matches in title fights

[SuzieQ49]

Btw, Brocky wasnt it true, though, that Marciano was also set to fight Earl Walls? But, of course, Marciano retired and named his top challengers to face off for his vacant crown.

YES! this was some talk in 1955 but there was more talk of a Archie Moore-Earl Walls fight in 1955. They couldnt come to an agreement, and walls claiming moore ducked him suddenly retired. Walls had not looked good in his recent fight. Now that he was out of the picture, Marciano-Valdez began negotiations for a title fight. Walls vs Marciano would have been a war until rock knocked him out. Walls was a 6'3 200lb boxerpuncher with a heavy violent right hand and he was a great finisher. Walls embarrasingly enough though, did lose to Marcianos sparring partner tommy harrison in 1953(avenged by devastating 1 round knockout)

[SuzieQ49]

Two questions:

Who says Marciano would have remained unbeaten if he fought say 1965 - 1975 ?

Who says Marciano remains unbeaten if he fought 1988 - 1998 ?

I say he has a completely different career ....


I think people would give his career more respect. If he had fought 1965-1975 he probably would have knocked out an old liston in the late 1960s similiar to louis...then picked off a couple of the crop of good contenders Quarry, Bonavena, Ellis, Patterson, mac foster Terell, then probably would have had an exciting trilogy either ali and frazier maybe winning 2 out of 3 vs frazier ruining eachother and losing a very competitive fight with ali...I could see Rock retiring early by 1971 because with his style, his prime would not last too long.

Who says Marciano remains unbeaten if he fought 1988 - 1998 ?

If 44 year old Larry Holmes and 42 year old George Foreman can fight there way into the top of the rankings during this time, I am sure a Prime Rocky Marciano could do very well and be champion fighting wars with tyson, holyfield, bowe, lennox beating some of them and losing some. Also I would expect marciano would enter the ring during this era at a solid 205lb with modern nutrition/weight training/supplement benefits .


My point is, though ur taking away his undefeated record...your also giving him a greater win resume than the one he had in the 1950s...So i would think many modern critics would rank rock much higher.

[MRBILL]

The 'Stander' fight is NOTHING to get all excited about.......... Joe Frazier was just looking to stay busy........ Stander was game, but over matched.......... Even a limited brawler can sometimes land a good punch every now and then..... I have a clean copy of that fight, but I rarely look it over anymore....

MR.BILL

[SuzieQ49]

Earl Walls: A Career To Short


17.11.03 - By Keith Terceira: I began this article with the intentions of giving a cliquey on the boxing career of Canadian Champion Earl Walls, but became intrigued by the entire Walls family. One can only imagine the trials and tribulations endured by the Walls family founder Jon Freeman Walls. I highly recommend readers to take a moment and explore the Walls Family History located at [Only registered and activated users can see links]

It is not often I add links and such to my work but this is a special occasion for a unique fighter.

Earl Walls was born in 1928 the second eldest of ten children in the Township of Maidstone. He attended Essex District High School leaving to work at Ford's with father Frank. At 19 Earl Walls came under the wing of Jimmy Jones a Toronto fight promoter. Training took him eventually to Stillman's Gym in New York City. A two fisted fighter Earl displayed a great left hook and powerful right.

May 5, 1948 in his pro debut Earl took on Dick Lee and it ended in a 1st round KO. In fact 17 of Walls 43 fights ended in one round. More 1st round knockouts than the great Joe Louis who was going strong at the onset of Walls career.

Some victims of the Earls Power were Kurt Schiegl, Rex Layne (twice), George Parmentier, Vern Escoe, Joe Kahut, Tommy Harrison, Bernie Reynolds . Earl had wins over Freddie Beshore, Henry Hall, Billy Gilliam. Just as things were coming together for Walls, at age 27, on November 2, 1955 he retires from the ring.

Nicknamed the "Hooded Terror" Walls blinded sided the sport by his announced departure while in training to Ewart "ED" Potgieter the South African gargantuan who demolished and dismantled opponents. 1957 Bruce Olson died as a result of injuries sustained in match bout with the 7 foot 2 inch 325 pound giant. This had nothing to do with Earls retirement. I suspect injuries and the birth of his first child led to the decision.

Perhaps it was the frustration of not receiving a shot at the title from Rocky Marciano, though plans were attempted by former world champion Henry Armstrong and promoter Vic Tanny. It was even reported in the L.A. Times as headline read "L.A. Scribe Says Armstrong Trying to Promote Marciano-Walls Fight".

Archie Moore considerd Walls as he started his run at Rocky but used the excuse that Walls didn't have the drawing power. More likely that Walls power was such that Moore couldn't gamble on being stopped short of his goal to meet Marciano. What resulted was the undignified suspect match-up of Valdez-Moore.

In 1954 when Harrison vs. Walls II occurred Walls was running a streak of 13 wins by KO before the sixth round and 2 losses on points to Joe Kahut and Tommy Harrison. He would avenge the loss to Joe six months later with a second round KO. April of 54 he walked into the ring and crushed Harrison in the first round.

It was also the last KO Earl would ever have. Injury could have possible stopped the power display that fans were used to from Walls. When he fought Edgardo Romero of Argentina ,a man who managed only a 6-12 career record the power had left. Edgardo pulled out a points win in 10 in Canada. Four months later Walls would return the favor, but Romero was notorious for having a weak chin, why either fight would go the distance is perplexing. Fact is that the last seven fights of his life, Earl went to the scorecards.

Points wins over Jimmy Slade . James J. Parker, Henry Hall and Billy Giliam put Earl in the #5 spot in the division . Maybe it was divine intervention. Perhaps the lure of family life that lead to the end of the beginning. Earl Walls after boxing became a force in real estate, a force in life, and an contributing bard on the Walls Family and the Underground Railroad.

[hhascup]

Btw, Was Johnny Skhor ever rated in Ring Magazine monthly top 10 in the 1940s after his big upset win over Tami Mauriello in 47?


Skhor was rated from May 1947 to August 1947, a total of 4 months and his highest rating was #8.

[SuzieQ49]

Awesome Thanx alot!!! I figured that huge win over mauriello boosted him in there. Skhor also had a very nice win over borderline top 10 Rusty Payne in 1950 shortly before fighting Walcott and Marciano.

[SuzieQ49]

[Only registered and activated users can see links]
[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[groove]

that's a pretty sad report if they were scared of fighting marciano. shows that these so-called big 50s heavies are overrated - that's why light heavy Patterson (182 pounds) could smash the no.1 contenders like Moore. you think a ron lyle was afraid of facing george foreman or he would be afraid of fighting a marciano. i don't think so. if norton could choose - to fight foreman or marciano - i can guess which one he would pick :)

[janitor]

that's a pretty sad report if they were scared of fighting marciano. shows that these so-called big 50s heavies are overrated - that's why light heavy Patterson (182 pounds) could smash the no.1 contenders like Moore. you think a ron lyle was afraid of facing george foreman or he would be afraid of fighting a marciano. i don't think so. if norton could choose - to fight foreman or marciano - i can guess which one he would pick :)

You can find a fight from any era where two of the top contenders fought a snorefest and were acused of being timid.

It should be noted that some contenders of this period like Harold Johnson did better against common oponents than Sonny Liston or Muhamad Ali.

To be honest with you I think the 50s contenders were somewhat better than those of the 60s excluding Liston and Ali.

[MRBILL]

Shit, I recall two champs named "Tyson" and "Bonecrusher Smith" were suppose to clash in the ring in 1987 and start a fire..... I was foaming at the mouth for that fight on FREE / Regular HBO.......... It was a wet dream made in heaven on paper..... Then the fight began, and after a few rds, I became bummed that the fire was a dud....... By round 10, Larry Merchant was questioning how the ringsiders who had paid 750 dollars per seat were feeling.... I have the fight on tape, but I rarely ever review the tape...... The fight / event stunk........

MR.BILL

[MRBILL]

Contenders / Champions...... It's the same ol' song and dance........ What about the recent "Holy-Valuev" WBA title fight in Europe last December?? That has to be ONE of the all-time title fight stinkers the boxing world has ever seen before........

I must add that I am NOT impressed with the recent efforts by title challengers like DaVarryl Williamson or Tony Thompson....... Nobody is really screaming for their return...... I know I am NOT in any hurry to see them fight again......

And, Hasim Rahman is more shot than a target at a Police firing-line....

MR.BILL

[MRBILL]

Going back to 1960.... I have "Liston vs. Ed Machen" on tape........ A slow-paced heavyweight bout that Liston wins, but fails to impress....... ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzz....... I hardly ever look that fight over.... Way too boring...... Peace...

MR.BILL

[SuzieQ49]

that's a pretty sad report if they were scared of fighting marciano. shows that these so-called big 50s heavies are overrated - that's why light heavy Patterson (182 pounds) could smash the no.1 contenders like Moore.

Cus Damato turned down fights with bob baker in 1955 and Nino Valdez in 1958. He was afraid of sending patterson in the ring with them because he didnt feel patterson matched up well with skilled big heavyweights. Baker and Valdez did have skills and Power

[janitor]

that's a pretty sad report if they were scared of fighting marciano. shows that these so-called big 50s heavies are overrated - that's why light heavy Patterson (182 pounds) could smash the no.1 contenders like Moore. you think a ron lyle was afraid of facing george foreman or he would be afraid of fighting a marciano. i don't think so. if norton could choose - to fight foreman or marciano - i can guess which one he would pick :)

Furthermore:

While the 70s is a marvelous era, IT IS NOT THE ONLY ERA!!!!!

[MRBILL]

The 70s and the 90s were the BEST era / days though.......

MR.BILL