What does Couture have to do to surpass Fedor?

[achillesthegreat]

Is it possible? His record is so chequered early on. Later when he lost to Chuck and Vitor, he also won against them.

What does he have to do? What if he beats Nog and Cro?

For me he has to avenge some losses.

Thoughts?

[rushman]

Nog and Cro are decent scalps. But maybe not what they once were.

I think the only way to surpass fedor is to beat him in the ring. Trying to that fight happen would be fun though....

[jimmie]

If he wants to pass him he needs to beat him enough said.

[WiDDoW_MaKeR]

I don't think that he needs to avenge any losses. None of his losses are really worthwhile. He has already dominated Liddell before, so we already know that he can do it. The Belfort loss, wasn't even a loss. Other than that, chalk it up as learning experience that molded him into what he is today. MMA being as young as it is, and the type of fighting that it is. Fighters have so much room for improvement that you can't really look down upon early losses if they have clearly overcome them and grown.

[BewareofDawg]

Pass him in an overall standing or at Heavyweight. Remember, Coutures wins over Belfort, Tito and Chuck weren't at Heavyweight. His Heavyweight resume isn't really that impressive (although he did beat Randelman and Rizzo). Really, who at Heavyweight has Couture beaten that is anywhere the same league as Nog or Cro?

[jimmie]

Pass him in an overall standing or at Heavyweight. Remember, Coutures wins over Belfort, Tito and Chuck weren't at Heavyweight. His Heavyweight resume isn't really that impressive (although he did beat Randelman and Rizzo). Really, who at Heavyweight has Couture beaten that is anywhere the same league as Nog or Cro?

How about Gonzaga and Randleman the guy that brutally KOed Cro Cop ?

[achillesthegreat]

I don't think that he needs to avenge any losses. None of his losses are really worthwhile. He has already dominated Liddell before, so we already know that he can do it. The Belfort loss, wasn't even a loss. Other than that, chalk it up as learning experience that molded him into what he is today. MMA being as young as it is, and the type of fighting that it is. Fighters have so much room for improvement that you can't really look down upon early losses if they have clearly overcome them and grown.
So you're look at his early losses like someone would look at the early losses of a great like Armstrong.

Problem is Couture has a chance to overcome those losses because those fighters are still active i.e. JB!

[boxingcar]

Couture already got beat by Barnett in his prime...
barnett lost to crocop and nogueira...(though barnett did beat nogueira the first time)...

Couture got beat by liddell and a bunch of other opponents in the past...
Fedor already passed all the tests...

having said that , i think there's a chance for couture to possibly beat nogueira. especially now...he wasn't looking good against heath herring either..

[BewareofDawg]

How about Gonzaga and Randleman the guy that brutally KOed Cro Cop ?
Didn't I mention Randleman and Rizzo? I really think Gonzaga was very overrated. He showed fear and a lack of heart in there against Couture. I just don't think he was as good as many made him out to be.

Look I am in no way bashing Couture, I f'ing love the guy. But "at Heavyweight" he certainly has not done as much as Fedor has.

[WiDDoW_MaKeR]

Pass him in an overall standing or at Heavyweight. Remember, Coutures wins over Belfort, Tito and Chuck weren't at Heavyweight. His Heavyweight resume isn't really that impressive (although he did beat Randelman and Rizzo). Really, who at Heavyweight has Couture beaten that is anywhere the same league as Nog or Cro?
Well, without being able to directly link Couture against those fighters, we can look at this way. As far as someone that Couture beat at heavyweight he completely dominated Sylvia, who knocked out Ricco, (who really beat Nog without a doubt and was robbed), that at least has to show that they are in the same league. He just dominated Gonzaga, who dominated Cro-Cop, so obviously Gonzaga is in the same league as Cro-Cop... one would suspect. Randy beat Rizzo twice, and Rizzo knocked out Barnett, and Arlovski... so there is Champion that he beat who beat guys at the top level. As you pointed out, he beat Randleman, who beat Cro-Cop as well.

So, remember this isn't using the A beats B, B beats C, so A obviously beats C routine. This is pointing out the guys that Couture beat are on, or above the level of the ones you mentioned.

[BewareofDawg]

Well, without being able to directly link Couture against those fighters, we can look at this way. As far as someone that Couture beat at heavyweight he completely dominated Sylvia, who knocked out Ricco, (who really beat Nog without a doubt and was robbed), that at least has to show that they are in the same league. He just dominated Gonzaga, who dominated Cro-Cop, so obviously Gonzaga is in the same league as Cro-Cop... one would suspect. Randy beat Rizzo twice, and Rizzo knocked out Barnett, and Arlovski... so there is Champion that he beat who beat guys at the top level. As you pointed out, he beat Randleman, who beat Cro-Cop as well.

So, remember this isn't using the A beats B, B beats C, so A obviously beats C routine. This is pointing out the guys that Couture beat are on, or above the level of the ones you mentioned.
Nog and CroCop were both in the top 3 when Fedor beat them, were they not?

And no, I don't think Gonzaga is in the same league as CroCop...even though he beat him. Just like GSP is a league above Serra.

[boxingcar]

Didn't I mention Randleman and Rizzo? I really think Gonzaga was very overrated. He showed fear and a lack of heart in there against Couture. I just don't think he was as good as many made him out to be.

Look I am in no way bashing Couture, I f'ing love the guy. But "at Heavyweight" he certainly has not done as much as Fedor has.

Randleman was also extremely overrated in 2004..(after his huge win against crocop...)...

having said that...Randleman has overall accomplished much more than Gonzaga in his career.

but beating crocop like gonzaga did (or randleman) is a bit like winning the lottery...same as hasim vs lennox lewis...i'm repeating myself but it's true...

that's why i no longer like crocop...
i feel brtrayed by that guy...he doesnt own me anything but as a fan , or should i say ex-fan....at the time , i felt totally betrayed.

Especially when you know what the guy is capable of.

[BewareofDawg]

Randleman was also extremely overrated in 2004..(after his huge win against crocop...)...

having said that...Randleman has overall accomplished much more than Gonzaga in his career.

but beating crocop like gonzaga did (or randleman) is a bit like winning the lottery...same as hasim vs lennox lewis...i'm repeating myself but it's true...

that's why i no longer like crocop...
i feel brtrayed by that guy...he doesnt own me anything but as a fan , or should i say ex-fan....at the time , i felt totally betrayed.

Especially when you know what the guy is capable of.
I never bought into the "Gonzaga Hype". He is a solid fighter and deserves all the credit in the world for beating Crocop, although Cro didn't look like himself, that's not Gonzaga's fault....he went out and did his job. That all being said. I think he showed his limitations and weaknesses Saturday night. We saw the heart sucked right out of him, and in a sense his will to win was taken too. He made no adjustments, and I really feel he just gave up. :deal

[WiDDoW_MaKeR]

So you're look at his early losses like someone would look at the early losses of a great like Armstrong.

Problem is Couture has a chance to overcome those losses because those fighters are still active i.e. JB!
I don't even see why the Barnett win is still counted over Couture. Barnett tested positive for Anabolic Steroids after that fight. Other than that, Couture has beat the man, who beat the man sort of revenge. Beat Sylvia who knocked out Ricco.

Wouldn't make any sense for Couture to rematch the 23-20 Valentijn Overeem, or Illoukhine who hasn't fought in a couple years and is a weight class below. Enson doesn't fight anymore either, and that fight doesn't make sense. Those are fights that led to Couture training like an animal at submission defense. Now, he fights the best BJJ guys in the world, and doesn't come close to getting subbed. So, we can't even put the Couture of back then up with the Couture of now. It is two completely different fighters.

I don't think that any rematches would make sense for Couture right now. I don't even really think that Liddell could deal with Couture at heavyweight. Couture is so much more fresh, has more strenth, and takes a much greater shot at heavyweight.

[jimmie]

I don't even see why the Barnett win is still counted over Couture. Barnett tested positive for Anabolic Steroids after that fight. Other than that, Couture has beat the man, who beat the man sort of revenge. Beat Sylvia who knocked out Ricco.

Wouldn't make any sense for Couture to rematch the 23-20 Valentijn Overeem, or Illoukhine who hasn't fought in a couple years and is a weight class below. Enson doesn't fight anymore either, and that fight doesn't make sense. Those are fights that led to Couture training like an animal at submission defense. Now, he fights the best BJJ guys in the world, and doesn't come close to getting subbed. So, we can't even put the Couture of back then up with the Couture of now. It is two completely different fighters.

I don't think that any rematches would make sense for Couture right now. I don't even really think that Liddell could deal with Couture at heavyweight. Couture is so much more fresh, has more strenth, and takes a much greater shot at heavyweight.

Im not sure how many have seen Couture-Barnett even Boxingcar says Barnett owned him which is incredibly retarted to say.

[achillesthegreat]

I don't even see why the Barnett win is still counted over Couture. Barnett tested positive for Anabolic Steroids after that fight. Other than that, Couture has beat the man, who beat the man sort of revenge. Beat Sylvia who knocked out Ricco.

Wouldn't make any sense for Couture to rematch the 23-20 Valentijn Overeem, or Illoukhine who hasn't fought in a couple years and is a weight class below. Enson doesn't fight anymore either, and that fight doesn't make sense. Those are fights that led to Couture training like an animal at submission defense. Now, he fights the best BJJ guys in the world, and doesn't come close to getting subbed. So, we can't even put the Couture of back then up with the Couture of now. It is two completely different fighters.

I don't think that any rematches would make sense for Couture right now. I don't even really think that Liddell could deal with Couture at heavyweight. Couture is so much more fresh, has more strenth, and takes a much greater shot at heavyweight.
Ricco and JB are matches I think he needs to avenge.

[WiDDoW_MaKeR]

Nog and CroCop were both in the top 3 when Fedor beat them, were they not?

And no, I don't think Gonzaga is in the same league as CroCop...even though he beat him. Just like GSP is a league above Serra.Yea sure, if we are still going by the old rankings were everyone was under the impression that Pride fighters were all better than UFC fighters. I mean, Ricco came from being knocked out in the UFC, and was robbed against Nog. Cro-Cop walked through Pride's best (outside of Fedor) in the Open weight Tourny, and then came over to the UFC and got demolished by Gonzaga.

I think that any old rankings that were based off of the myth of Pride being so much better are pretty pointless.

I am not knocking on Fedor, I love watching him fight, and I am a huge fan. The man is a beast, and the best in the division until proven otherwise. However, people need to stop falling back on the old Pride's fighters are the greatest nonsense, because that has been proven false over and over again. Fedor stands alone though, and I would love to see him fight in the UFC. I would not be so sure that he wins though, if he fights the best guys in the UFC, in an octagon. I can definitely see him losing by cuts due to elbows, and I can definitely see him being taken down and controlled much easier in a cage.

To be honest, I think that Couture matches up GREAT against Fedor.

[WiDDoW_MaKeR]

Ricco and JB are matches I think he needs to avenge.
It isn't like that in MMA though. Not only are neither of those guys under contract by the UFC, but Couture doesn't get to choose his opponents, the UFC does.

[boxingcar]

Im not sure how many have seen Couture-Barnett even Boxingcar says Barnett owned him which is incredibly retarted to say.


i've seen it...he owned him imo...he actually defeated the guy at his own game.
but hey that's just my point of view...

[achillesthegreat]

It isn't like that in MMA though. Not only are neither of those guys under contract by the UFC, but Couture doesn't get to choose his opponents, the UFC does.
Agreed, but I'm not talking from a business perspective.

I'm saying if he avenged those two losses then his early losses can be discarded as a learning curve. Avenging those two losses will show he is a different fighter. JB is still a player, so I'd like to see it.

[boxingcar]

Gonzaga already got beat by Werdum in 2003
Werdum got beat by Nogueira , Arlovski , Kharitonov...

Arlovski once got owned by a half mentally challenged opponent (Datsik).
Got beat by Rizzo and sylvia & ricco.

Barnett convincingly defeated couture at his own game (in HIS PRIME)...
(btw yeat , Barnett also tested positive after that fight...)..but still..as far as technic goes...Barnett had couture's number that day.

Barnett was only defeated by Nogueira , rizzo & Crocop.

Rizzo , should've won his first fight against couture (he got robbed)
But that's irrelevant because couture owned Rizzo in the rematch anyway..

As far as Rizzo's case is concerned...
when the guy made his come back...he got beat by Kharitonov and Zentsov..

(btw zentsov also lost to arlovski lol)..

YEAH , MMATH is stupid...

but the point in all this is that emelianenko was tested several times in his career...and proved many times that he was THE man.

They all had to have a start in their careers...whether they're fighting cans , b level fighters or top fighters...it's always a test...

and couture failed these tests several times before..
His 3 first losses all happened in japan against the likes of Enson , Illoukhine & overeem's brother..

then he also got beat twice by Liddell..
I'm not counting his loss against Belfort cause that one was a fluke...

Couture was also struggling against randleman but he still won that fight...
(because kev was totally drained and had no energy to continue the fight)..

but stamina is also part of a fighter's skills...so a win is a win..

so WHAT does couture has to do to surpass fedor?
well....it's a bit late...too late actually...
the final solution would be to directly have him fight emelianenko...that's the only way.

[Beebs]

Im not sure how many have seen Couture-Barnett even Boxingcar says Barnett owned him which is incredibly retarted to say.

Exactly it was a back and forth fight until Barnett finally wore him down late, which im sure the steroids he tested postive for had at least a little to do with.

[Shareef]

I don't think he can surpass Fedor at this point. Suppose Couture beat Fedor we can't hold one loss against Fedor and say he isn't the best. He has accomplished so much up till now even if he lost he would/should be higher than couture historically. Obviously a win for Couture would elevate him to very high standards #2 in my opinion. Although if Couture keeps proving people wrong and beats fedor and who ever is the next biggest baddest guy around after he can possible become #1.

[ufoalf]

I dont think he can surpass Fedor without Fedors help. Fedor will need to start losing everyfight while Couture keep winning against solid opponents.

Also, I've said it before and i'll say it again you CANNOT make a connection A>B, and B>C therefore A>C. It is not transitive in MMA. Even in boxing i dont like to make such a connections. One of the reason you shouldn't do it is because you'll always find a C>A connection.

IMHO in MMA you have to take a fighter and look at his resume and look at what kind of stylistic fighters he has beaten. The more styles and the more rounded opponents he's beaten the stronger his resume is. Mind you going 1-1 vs some style isn't that great.

For me, in that category no one overtakes Fedor.

P.S Fedor vs Couture... Do it.

[Beebs]

I don't think he can surpass Fedor at this point. Suppose Couture beat Fedor we can't hold one loss against Fedor and say he isn't the best. He has accomplished so much up till now even if he lost he would/should be higher than couture historically. Obviously a win for Couture would elevate him to very high standards #2 in my opinion. Although if Couture keeps proving people wrong and beats fedor and who ever is the next biggest baddest guy around after he can possible become #1.

Thats a little silly, if Couture beats Fedor, he's number one, he will have had a similar quality of wins, and a win over Fedor, impossible not to rank him above Fedor at that point.

[AJAX]

anyone have any news on Fedor? Is he still talking with UFC or has it hit a wall

[Donut62]

Acutally, according to Josh Gross, Fedor and his managment arrived in Las Vegas today by invitation of Dana White to hammer this thing out.

[Shareef]

Thats a little silly, if Couture beats Fedor, he's number one, he will have had a similar quality of wins, and a win over Fedor, impossible not to rank him above Fedor at that point.

Thats not what i meant. I meant i wouldn't rank couture higher in an all time ranking but if he were to beat fedor he would obviously be the current #1.

[elixirvtec]

Couture beat the 2 guys that KO crocop. I am sure Randy can beat crocop and crocop could knock out randy. It can be anyones game. Both are great fighters and it would be a fight I wouldn't miss for the world

[Mob]

Fedor,....on paper, might be everyone's "P4P" guy.

But he hasn't accomplished what Randy Couture has accomplished. And Randy may be 16-8........but his opposition has been far more dangerous than Fedor's.

Accomplishment-wise,...Couture has surpassed Fedor at this point...by a mile.


Skill for skill? Fedor clearly looks like the superior MMA fighter.

Pure speculation.

DOn't be surprised if Fedor's legitimate first loss is against "The Natural".

[ufoalf]

Accomplishment-wise,...Couture has surpassed Fedor at this point...by a mile.

No.

[Koa]

Fedor has a superior style, superior mind. He is a walking contingency who has beaten far better opposition than Couture. Lets not forget, Fedor beat the shit out of Crocop STANDING. Not because he's a better striker, but because he's very intelligent and was able to keep Crocop hesitant. Fedor is both very technical and cerebral.

I'm a big fan of Couture as well. To be honest I think Gonzaga is over-rated. A victory against a complacent Crocop isn't a big thing, and is actually a commonality when it comes to Crocop. Losing in the past to guys like McDonald by KO for example, Randleman by KO.

Randy, IMO is an extremely talented, blown up light heavy. He's awesome, I love the guy, but Fedor would shred him.

[robert ungurean]

He has to beat him.