Marvin Hagler vs Floyd Patterson & Michael Spinks

[ChrisPontius]

How do you see these two interesting matchups unfold?

Would Patterson vs Hagler be decided within a few rounds as both were pretty much (educated) come forward fighters? Could Hagler take Spinks' power shots?

The interesting thing is that Spinks vs Hagler could actually have happened.

[janitor]

I don't give him much chance against either to be honest.

[JohnThomas1]

Against the grain i can see Marvin being a chance of losing by stoppage in both. If Marvin's competitiveness dictates that he takes the chances against Spinks he would need to to be in the fight then Spinks stops him IMO. He is one sick banger. If Marvin tastes the MAD POW and eases back he might survive depending on how many rounds the battle is over.

Patterson's extreme speed, class, stamina and style would put Marvin under extreme pressure. There would be no taxing clinches against a bigger man. Marvin's power would also not be a threat.

For whatever reason i just can't see Marvin as the sort of fighter who could successfully move up to 175. A great great fight would be he and Qawi, but Qawi is a monster really and again would be a frightening prospect.

[McGrain]

I pick Floyd to beat Hagler. I just don't think a natural WM can counter the power/accuracy/speed combo that Floyd brings, regardless - and that stands for every MW.

[JohnThomas1]

Hagler defeated a lot of big middleweights who did well at light heavyweight. Hearns twice claimed the light heavyweight title. Obel, Hamsho, and Roldan competed over the limit. At middleweight, Hagler dissects Patterson. Spinks is a different matter.

Since when did Patterson compete at 160?

[McGrain]

Hagler defeated a lot of big middleweights who did well at light heavyweight. Hearns twice claimed the light heavyweight title. Obel, Hamsho, and Roldan competed over the limit. At middleweight, Hagler dissects Patterson. Spinks is a different matter.

At LHW how does Hagler do V Patterson?

[dmt]

according to Hank Hagler could move up to beat Charles and Moore

[ChrisPontius]

At middleweight, Hagler dissects Patterson. Spinks is a different matter.

I'm talking about a prime Patterson here, at heavyweight. Close to or over 175 anyway.

[McGrain]

I would go so far as to say: any version of Patterson (within reason) beats any version of Hagler.

[McGrain]

There's one version of Hagler.


You'd make no distinction pre-title and post-title?

How about pro debut and Duran?

[Duodenum]

If Hagler came in at around 168 lbs, I would favor him over Patterson.Interestingly, the supposition was that Hagler's true competitive weight when fully hydrated was indeed around 168. This was an early bone of contention when trying to arrange a match with SRL. Ray's camp wanted Marv weighing in at 160 at fight time, virtually in the ring itself. (They probably would have preferred Hagler to weigh in at the divison limit, gear included, as Gans had to before facing Nelson in Goldfield. They also wanted thumbless gloves to be mandated for a prospective superfight.)

The Patterson who was decisioned by Maxim would have a rough time with peak Hagler. A southpaw whose power is concentrated in the right would be a logistical hassle for anybody of comparable reach. Records indicate that Hagler outreached the taller Patterson, 75" to 71", but we all know how misleading these statistics can sometimes be.

If Mike Spinks could weigh in at 170 for David Sears, then if I was Hagler, I would have insisted on a contractual limit of 168 for a matchup, before agreeing to face him. Although the record indicates that Spinks has a 76" reach (remembering again how inaccurate this could be), at 6'3," this actually would give the 5'9-1/2" Hagler an edge, as he would be jabbing straight across, while Spinks would be going in a downward arc.

Simply to think of these things strains credulity, but doesn't Duran/Hagler, Duran Barkley, Barkley/Coetzee, old fat Toney's 24 complete rounds against Peter, or a number of other leaps against larger competition? (SRR's domination of Maxim before succumbing, or his victimization of many other far heavier ATG's included.)

[redrooster]

actually, Floyd was a natural middleweight who was able to compete as a heavyweight in the days of the smallish heavyweights (Charles, Walcott) and was often kayoed as both professional and amateur.

every Floyd Patterson fight was a rush to viewers because it was like witnessing a russian roulette contest. I loved the way Floyd let it all hang out in his fights as his extroverted side came out. what was Floyd's height anyhow?

Anyhow, if Marvin had the luxery of fighting in the days of the 185 pound heavyweight and Brian London it's very possible he would have held the title but it's hard to say. I never saw marvin above 160.

[McGrain]

We are talking about overall styles and size. Hagler didn't grow into middleweight. He was always a middleweight. Patterson was a middleweight who grew into heavyweight. It's a huge difference. When you say "Hagler against Patterson" you have to specify, "Which Patterson?" (Why is this a difficult concept to grasp, mcGrain?) Of course Hagler was different with Duran than he was in his pro debut because he was vastly more experience. But with few exception he has always fought using the same style.

Why are you nit picking? You believe a middleweight Patterson would beat Marvin Hagler? I don't. Hagler would take Patterson apart with Floyd's leaping in style. Hagler's hooks from either side would be devastating. I think Floyd has his hands full with Hagler around light heavyweight. But a 200 lbs Patterson would be difficult for Hagler. Size matters. That's all I'm saying.

I'm not nit-picking - i really think it's important. I know you're not keen on him but a fine example is Joe Louis, I would distinguish quite heavily between the post and pre-title fighter, they are different prospects as far as fighting goes.

I would give the Hagler a better chance, strangely, right at the end of his career, maybe slightly less quick, but seen it all, done it all, got the t-shirt.

Anyway, for me, I think the fighter Patterson was at around 160 would get his head handed to him by Hagler, Patterson just hasn't been around, but at a catchweight (you've mentioned 168), peak for peak, I see Patterson as too busy, quick of hand and powerful to allow Hagler to dominate him.

On the other hand I can't see him KO ing Marvin, so i'll go for a UD, Patterson.

[Manassa]

Against the grain i can see Marvin being a chance of losing by stoppage in both.

Maybe against Patterson, but not Spinks. I think it's a terrible misjudgement to assume Hagler would go from being invincible at middleweight to stoppable at light heavyweight. Hagler took some real hard shots in his career - Spinks probably hit harder than all of them, but not by some astronomical amount. We're talking Marvin Hagler - stunning him even briefly causes mass shock and discussion - the toughest fighter of all time? Maybe. I think he would be a far better light heavyweight than most people can imagine. Spinks would beat him, Mustafa, Saad and Qawi probably would have as well, but Hagler would be as good as Johnson or Davis, easily. He was a genuine great. Physicalities like height and weight wouldn't get in the way of a man like Hagler, who would give everything within his power to win a fight. Spinks was a great puncher, but he's not stopping Hagler - hell, Foster was more offensive minded than Spinks and chased the knockout, but I still can't see him stopping Hagler. Patterson is a different story, although it wouldn't surprise me if the slightly timid Patterson took a cautious approach against Hagler and didn't go for the knockout.

[mcvey]

I don't give him much chance against either to be honest.
Me neither!

[JohnThomas1]

actually, Floyd was a natural middleweight who was able to compete as a heavyweight in the days of the smallish heavyweights (Charles, Walcott) and was often kayoed as both professional and amateur.


Absolute rubbish, Floyd never ever fought at middleweight in the pro's even when 17 and 18 years of age.

[JohnThomas1]

Like Hagler, he fought a few pounds over the middleweight limit for much of his early career. Many of his early opponents were middleweights. He could have easily lost down and fought at middleweight. He wasn't even a full-fledged light heavyweight until several years after the debuted. He fought 17 fights before he ever broke 170 lbs. Floyd didn't break 180 lbs until he faced Archie Moore for the vacant title in 1956.

By the time he was just 21 he never fought under 178. Don't tell me he was a middleweight. He never fought there at any stage ever - period. It's utter crap. Once he hit his peak the debate is whether he could have been fighting at 175 or not. You and red seem to think everybody could easily fight a full division lower. These boxers aren't stupid.

[redrooster]

Absolute rubbish, Floyd never ever fought at middleweight in the pro's even when 17 and 18 years of age.

Floyd started out as a middleweight and moved up. he wasn't much of a heavyweight tho because he took on the challenge of Pete Rademacher and the Liston Blowouts. Not to mention he offered no challenge whatsoever to Muhammud Ali. What makes a guy like Floyd think he can compete with the likes of Muhammud. He was one of thw worst heavyweights in history.

i thought leonard was bad but Floyd probably set the bar lower than anyone I know of. At middleweight I don't see how Floyd can survive the wrath of someone like Hagler.

[JohnThomas1]

Anybody can go to boxrec and see how wrong you are. Do you think people are too stupid to go check it out?

Hey, i'll even give you the link

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

He was 21 the first month of 1956 right?

[JohnThomas1]

Floyd started out as a middleweight and moved up.

So what pro fights did he have weighing under 160? Enlighten me.

[JohnThomas1]

I never said he did. I said he weighed what Hagler did in non-title fights. Was Hagler ever considered a light heavyweight? No, of course not. Middleweights typically fight at around 163 or 166 lbs. That's what Patterson was fight at. He wasn't fighting at the light heavyweight limit. Like I said, he fought 17 before before breaking 170 lbs.

You need to think more, John, and relax more. Every interaction with you is like dealing with some punk kid who goes off whenever somebody suggests something to him. It's really unpleasant. Why do you always want to be a jerk? Do you just have one of those dispositions?

Well after your big speech half a brain would show you i wasn't even addressing you :lol:

What is a bit more telling is that the times i have now seen you answer for redrooster as if you were him border on double figures.

Wierd that, huh?

;)

[DocDevil]

Hagler was tough,but don't see him beating a heavyweight champ or ex champion.Always felt Floyd after his losses to Liston,Ali and the likes,he shoulda went permanent light heavyweight.Think it woulda been tough to make weight but he coulda been champ again.Him and Bob Foster woulda been interesting.

[Fedor Em]

I think there is a good chance Patterson would stop him middle to late rounds, and Spinks would probally win a decision. 15 round fights of course, that is how these old school greats did it. We don't know how Hagler would he carry the weight since he stayed at 160 but he was only about 5'9".

[ChrisPontius]

Well after your big speech half a brain would show you i wasn't even addressing you :lol:

What is a bit more telling is that the times i have now seen you answer for redrooster as if you were him border on double figures.

Wierd that, huh?

;)

I think we have another glitch in the system here.

O dear, probably his other next-door neighbour happens to be good old Red, called him on the phone "Hey Hank, you gotta answer this John Thomas guy for me, he really hurt my feelings, just pretend to be me and answer that bastard :| i'm busy re-designing that Leonard shrine i was telling you about"

[JohnThomas1]

Maybe against Patterson, but not Spinks. I think it's a terrible misjudgement to assume Hagler would go from being invincible at middleweight to stoppable at light heavyweight. Hagler took some real hard shots in his career - Spinks probably hit harder than all of them, but not by some astronomical amount. We're talking Marvin Hagler - stunning him even briefly causes mass shock and discussion - the toughest fighter of all time? Maybe. I think he would be a far better light heavyweight than most people can imagine. Spinks would beat him, Mustafa, Saad and Qawi probably would have as well, but Hagler would be as good as Johnson or Davis, easily. He was a genuine great. Physicalities like height and weight wouldn't get in the way of a man like Hagler, who would give everything within his power to win a fight. Spinks was a great puncher, but he's not stopping Hagler - hell, Foster was more offensive minded than Spinks and chased the knockout, but I still can't see him stopping Hagler. Patterson is a different story, although it wouldn't surprise me if the slightly timid Patterson took a cautious approach against Hagler and didn't go for the knockout.

Personally i can definitely see these guys being stoppage chances over 15, but each to their own. At the end of the day either is possbile i guess.

[JohnThomas1]

I think we have another glitch in the system here.

O dear, probably his other next-door neighbour happens to be good old Red, called him on the phone "Hey Hank, you gotta answer this John Thomas guy for me, he really hurt my feelings, just pretend to be me and answer that bastard :| i'm busy re-designing that Leonard shrine i was telling you about"

:rofl

Yet another lil glitch in the system. Personally one wonders if Hank's house isn't totally enclosed from all four sides with all the neighbours he seems to have. All pertinent peeps too of course lol.

[My dinner with Conteh]

I never said he did.



Oops. Careful with that Glitch, Eugene. :yep

[My dinner with Conteh]

I understand why you guys need to divert the attention of others with all this hassling Pep.


We haven't seen 'Pep' in this thread, have we? :hi:

[Stonehands89]

Maybe against Patterson, but not Spinks. I think it's a terrible misjudgement to assume Hagler would go from being invincible at middleweight to stoppable at light heavyweight. Hagler took some real hard shots in his career - Spinks probably hit harder than all of them, but not by some astronomical amount. We're talking Marvin Hagler - stunning him even briefly causes mass shock and discussion - the toughest fighter of all time? Maybe. I think he would be a far better light heavyweight than most people can imagine. Spinks would beat him, Mustafa, Saad and Qawi probably would have as well, but Hagler would be as good as Johnson or Davis, easily. He was a genuine great. Physicalities like height and weight wouldn't get in the way of a man like Hagler, who would give everything within his power to win a fight. Spinks was a great puncher, but he's not stopping Hagler - hell, Foster was more offensive minded than Spinks and chased the knockout, but I still can't see him stopping Hagler. Patterson is a different story, although it wouldn't surprise me if the slightly timid Patterson took a cautious approach against Hagler and didn't go for the knockout.

I tend to agree.

There seems to be a long-term fad on ESB of just writing off Hagler's chances against LHWs simply because he decided to dominate his own division instead of moving up.

He declined the challenges of Spinks and Qawi and so the implication is ... Hagler would have been horizontal or otherwise whipped? I just don't think so.

Most people think of Hagler-Hearns, Hagler-Mugabi, and Hagler-Leonard, when they think of him -and that is unrepresentative of what he was. Hagler relied on brute strength and a granite chin in the former 2 and boxed in slow motion and while relatively shot against Leonard.

Between 1978 and 1982 Hagler was a complicated matter in the ring. He was a boxer-puncher who could move well, punch well, switch positions in the middle of a combination, etc. He was faster and just as strong as the later version. That chin must be given the benefit of the doubt. And the man's fierce dedication was extreme by any measure.

This is not a man you want to underestimate.

[Duodenum]

For Hagler, there was no real incentive to go after a light heavyweight title. Don't forget, that for most of Marv's reign, the MW Title was the ONLY undisputed championship in boxing. Why should he choose to accept a demotion to contender status, or partial recognition, when he wasn't having any weight related issues? It was difficult enough for him to secure the MW Championship he felt he was long overdue for. Finally, he did have a milestone to aim for, Monzon's all-time record for successful defenses. He fell just short, but in the process, he's probably better remembered than he might be for abandoning his natural weight to campaign in a heavier division. When was the last time a world champion successfully defended a universally recognized title as many consecutive times as Hagler? Most of them just collect multiple partial titles in frequently bastard divisions like others gather baseball cards.

[bigjake]

How do you see these two interesting matchups unfold?

Would Patterson vs Hagler be decided within a few rounds as both were pretty much (educated) come forward fighters? Could Hagler take Spinks' power shots?

The interesting thing is that Spinks vs Hagler could actually have happened.

hagler said he didn't want to fight spinks i remember him sayin that,hes really a heavyweight that can make the light heavyweight limit he said.

both patterson and spinks would beat hagler a natural middleweight

[ChrisPontius]

We haven't seen 'Pep' in this thread, have we? :hi:

Another embarrasing episode of this confused individual.

[JohnThomas1]

We haven't seen 'Pep' in this thread, have we? :hi:

And then there were 3

:lol:

[JimmyShimmy]

I tend to agree.

There seems to be a long-term fad on ESB of just writing off Hagler's chances against LHWs simply because he decided to dominate his own division instead of moving up.

He declined the challenges of Spinks and Qawi and so the implication is ... Hagler would have been horizontal or otherwise whipped? I just don't think so.

Most people think of Hagler-Hearns, Hagler-Mugabi, and Hagler-Leonard, when they think of him -and that is unrepresentative of what he was. Hagler relied on brute strength and a granite chin in the former 2 and boxed in slow motion and while relatively shot against Leonard.

Between 1978 and 1982 Hagler was a complicated matter in the ring. He was a boxer-puncher who could move well, punch well, switch positions in the middle of a combination, etc. He was faster and just as strong as the later version. That chin must be given the benefit of the doubt. And the man's fierce dedication was extreme by any measure.

This is not a man you want to underestimate.

Fair play, but Foster is where I'd draw the line. Bob would knock Hagler out, no sweat. You're looking at a natural Hearns at LH.

[C. M. Clay II]

Floyd started out as a middleweight and moved up. he wasn't much of a heavyweight tho because he took on the challenge of Pete Rademacher and the Liston Blowouts. Not to mention he offered no challenge whatsoever to Muhammud Ali. What makes a guy like Floyd think he can compete with the likes of Muhammud. He was one of thw worst heavyweights in history.

i thought leonard was bad but Floyd probably set the bar lower than anyone I know of. At middleweight I don't see how Floyd can survive the wrath of someone like Hagler.

:rofl

[C. M. Clay II]

Hagler blatanly avoided Spinks, so that's a clear sign, IMO. Spinks would probably have stopped him late. And Patterson? forget about it. No middleweight is standing up to a 190lb man with the conbination of power and speed that Floyd has, I don't care how good Haglr's chin is. Floyd ko's Marv in about 5 rounds.

Michael Spinks TKO 12 Marvin Hagler:good

Floyd Patterson KO 5 Marvin Hagler:good

[Duodenum]

Hagler blatanly avoided Spinks, so that's a clear sign, IMO. Spinks would probably have stopped him late. And Patterson? forget about it. No middleweight is standing up to a 190lb man with the conbination of power and speed that Floyd has, I don't care how good Haglr's chin is. Floyd ko's Marv in about 5 rounds.

Michael Spinks TKO 12 Marvin Hagler:good

Floyd Patterson KO 5 Marvin Hagler:good

The outcomes you estimate are completely viable results.

Please keep in mind however, that SRL also blatantly avoided Hagler for years as well. Yet he stood up to Marv extremely well for 12 rounds, coming off a virtual five year layoff. This was at a time when Hagler seemed an awesome P4P best in the world, coming off the Mugabe kayo win. So I don't put too much stock in the assumption that Hagler avoided Mike because he didn't think he could win.

[bill poster]

Hagler was 6 ibs below his normal weight against leonard..infact probably more like 15 lbs below his normal fighting weight at least(had to be 160 on evening of fight)

[Stonehands89]

Fair play, but Foster is where I'd draw the line. Bob would knock Hagler out, no sweat. You're looking at a natural Hearns at LH.

"...knock Hagler out, no sweat" -see, that's where I'd draw the line.

This kind of casual assertion is exactly what bothers me. Now, I'm not denying that Hagler could be knocked out by large men with vicious hand speed and power, but Hearns did not come close to knocking out Hagler and he landed flush several times. Hagler could take the best shots of prime Hearns. So your analogy reveals nothing.

Did you know that Hagler was ruining HWs when sparring in Provincetown?

Let's say that Toney never left the MW division. Would you have believed that he could take Sam Peter's shots? Peter makes Foster look like a breadstick.

There's some perspective for everyone... So as per Hagler... who's to say?

[Jear]

"...knock Hagler out, no sweat" -see, that's where I'd draw the line.

This kind of casual assertion is exactly what bothers me. Now, I'm not denying that Hagler could be knocked out by large men with vicious hand speed and power, but Hearns did not come close to knocking out Hagler and he landed flush several times. Hagler could take the best shots of prime Hearns. So your analogy reveals nothing.

Did you know that Hagler was ruining HWs when sparring in Provincetown?

Let's say that Toney never left the MW division. Would you have believed that he could take Sam Peter's shots? Peter makes Foster look like a breadstick.

There's some perspective for everyone... So as per Hagler... who's to say?

Hagler only took Tommys best for 3/4 of a round and was shaken in that time. Foster and Peter are very different punchers so the comparison is irrelevant, also Toney weighed 230 against Peter, Marv wouldnt be much over 165-170.
I think the big thing is Floyd and Spinks would land hard and often on Marv, could he stand up to a sustained barrage...maybe, could he win the fight I very much doubt it.

[redrooster]

:rofl

Everything I say is based on observation-and logic.

Patterson was the lightest heavy since Gene Tunney and the most protected. He was nothing more than a kill or be killed type-either the opponent or himself would be lying unconscious.

Haven't you seen his bouts? He was a small boned heavyweight who got massacred by the first good black man he met-twice in the first round.

Patterson was one of the luckiest men to ever fight for the heavyweight title. Look at who he had to get by to win it-Archie Moore, a light heavyweight beaten to a pulp in his previous title try for the title.

The lack of credible competition also helped him hold onto it longer than expected and if that wasn't enough, was carefully matched with unqualified opponents Pete Rademacher fighting for Patterson's title in his pro debut. :oops: :rofl :roll:

I also say you're wrong about Hagler. When did Hagler ever express an interest in meeting with any title holder at 175 whether weak or strong? Bobby Czyz? Dennis Andries? Leslie Stewart? Marvin Johnson? Don lalonde?

Had he expressed interest after Spinks left the division in 85 and then moved up I'd go along with you but with his last two fights at 160 I'd say you have no case.

[redrooster]

Yes, but you have to admit that his post-Liston career was pretty good. He wasn't a threat to win the title from an Ali or a Frazier, but he was a credible contender.

After the Liston fights I got a better idea of what he could do with some real competition. Before Liston, I didn't because I didn't know who those guys were.

[Stonehands89]

Hagler only took Tommys best for 3/4 of a round and was shaken in that time. Foster and Peter are very different punchers so the comparison is irrelevant, also Toney weighed 230 against Peter, Marv wouldnt be much over 165-170.
I think the big thing is Floyd and Spinks would land hard and often on Marv, could he stand up to a sustained barrage...maybe, could he win the fight I very much doubt it.

The point remains: Hearns did not come close to knocking out Hagler.

Foster is more similar to Hearns in terms of punching than Peter, but the argument against Hagler revolves around the size differential.

Toney was 230 pounds of lard covering a 160 pound frame. He was obese. And the point remains anyway. NO ONE would have made the argument in 1991 that Toney could take the shots of a heavyweight, much less a monster like Peter.

[Stonehands89]

Hagler fighting at light heavyweight is roughly analogous to Duran fighting at welterweight. When you have a fighter that talented and dominant he can rule two weight classes. A prime Hagler would be a nightmare for any fighter from middleweight through light heavyweight.

The Duran and Toney phenomena hurt the arguments against Hagler. When Duran was in the midst of beating on Monroe Brooks, Gil Clancy had this to say:

"Duran can handle WWs, but he is too short and box-shaped to compete in any higher divisions."

Duran went on to blow this up. He destroyed Moore at 152, gave Hagler more of competitive fight than anyone since Vito Antuofermo, and beat Iran Barkley 11 years after the Brooks win. (Gil Clancy was commentating on that one too: "I just cannot believe this man!")

[JimmyShimmy]

"...knock Hagler out, no sweat" -see, that's where I'd draw the line.

This kind of casual assertion is exactly what bothers me. Now, I'm not denying that Hagler could be knocked out by large men with vicious hand speed and power, but Hearns did not come close to knocking out Hagler and he landed flush several times. Hagler could take the best shots of prime Hearns. So your analogy reveals nothing.

Did you know that Hagler was ruining HWs when sparring in Provincetown?

Let's say that Toney never left the MW division. Would you have believed that he could take Sam Peter's shots? Peter makes Foster look like a breadstick.

There's some perspective for everyone... So as per Hagler... who's to say?

I agree with the theme of your post. Foster is just a different case. Dick Tiger was rock at MW, Foster made him look like putty.

I think any MW has seriously got his work cut out for him against the gangly Foster with his whipping shots. Sam Peter is a big dude, but is nowhere near the puncher Foster was. Bob threw slicing haymakers.

Can't see that left hook bounce off Hagler skull.

[Stonehands89]

I agree with the theme of your post. Foster is just a different case. Dick Tiger was rock at MW, Foster made him look like putty.

I think any MW has seriously got his work cut out for him against the gangly Foster with his whipping shots. Sam Peter is a big dude, but is nowhere near the puncher Foster was. Bob threw slicing haymakers.

Can't see that left hook bounce off Hagler skull.

Haha, Well, I can't say... although I can't see Emile Griffith knocking Hagler down unless Emile was wielding a baseball bat. Hagler would probably be the physically stronger of the two against Foster and gangly Bob would have rough stuff if Hagler gets inside. I see that happening more than I see Hagler getting blown out early.

[Jear]

The point remains: Hearns did not come close to knocking out Hagler.

Foster is more similar to Hearns in terms of punching than Peter, but the argument against Hagler revolves around the size differential.

Toney was 230 pounds of lard covering a 160 pound frame. He was obese. And the point remains anyway. NO ONE would have made the argument in 1991 that Toney could take the shots of a heavyweight, much less a monster like Peter.


I think you missed the point of my post, It was in the short period of time Tommy had with two good hands he did manage to shake Marv up. I also stated Hagler may hold up against Spinks and Patterson but that I didnt think he could win and that they would land hard and often enough to test Marvins durability like never before.

As for Toney to say he had a 160lb frame I feel is erroneous, I believe he was more like a light heavy who could make 160 for a short period, yet your are quite right that had it been suggested he could stand up to a heavyweight banger when he was campaigning as a middle it would have seemed incredulous.

[Stonehands89]

I think you missed the point of my post, It was in the short period of time Tommy had with two good hands he did manage to shake Marv up. I also stated Hagler may hold up against Spinks and Patterson but that I didnt think he could win and that they would land hard and often enough to test Marvins durability like never before.

As for Toney to say he had a 160lb frame I feel is erroneous, I believe he was more like a light heavy who could make 160 for a short period, yet your are quite right that had it been suggested he could stand up to a heavyweight banger when he was campaigning as a middle it would have seemed incredulous.

No, I got the point of your Hearns' assertion, but disagree. I think that Hagler could take the best shots that Hearns had and demonstrated it. Remember, Hearns was not the most durable of guys and so if he didn't hurt his hand, he was still under hellish pressure and his power would diminish as rounds went on. Hagler put hellish pressure on guys. I think that his physical presence in the ring is underated here on ESB. Fighting him was like fighting lead. Foster was not stronger than Hagler.

I've been in the ring with guys with that kind of strength and its an absolute unmitigated nightmare. They sap you on the inside and the pressure they put at any distance also saps you -at least emotionally.

As for Toney, well, he claimed that he was more functional at 168 and then he claimed the same at LHW, and Cruiser. I think his problem wasn't that he was too big for MW, it was his appetite that was too big. Toney was the cardinal sin of gluttony on gams. That's a great fighter with serious issues. An eating disorder to begin with!

[Jear]

No, I got the point of your Hearns' assertion, but disagree. I think that Hagler could take the best shots that Hearns had and demonstrated it. Remember, Hearns was not the most durable of guys and so if he didn't hurt his hand, he was still under hellish pressure and his power would diminish as rounds went on. Hagler put hellish pressure on guys. I think that his physical presence in the ring is underated here on ESB. Fighting him was like fighting lead. Foster was not stronger than Hagler.

I've been in the ring with guys with that kind of strength and its an absolute unmitigated nightmare. They sap you on the inside and the pressure they put at any distance also saps you -at least emotionally.

As for Toney, well, he claimed that he was more functional at 168 and then he claimed the same at LHW, and Cruiser. I think his problem wasn't that he was too big for MW, it was his appetite that was too big. Toney was the cardinal sin of gluttony on gams. That's a great fighter with serious issues. An eating disorder to begin with!

No Foster is not stronger than Hagler but is stronger than Hearns and hit with power behind a long snapping jab. Dick Tiger was very strong.

You could use Qawi as an example of how Hagler may go at light Heavy but I think Qawi was stronger than Marvin and I would favour Dwight if these two met.

It may seem that I dont rate Hagler highly, I do, I just feel he was right at 160 and would give away too many intangibles at 175

[Stonehands89]

No Foster is not stronger than Hagler but is stronger than Hearns and hit with power behind a long snapping jab. Dick Tiger was very strong.

You could use Qawi as an example of how Hagler may go at light Heavy but I think Qawi was stronger than Marvin and I would favour Dwight if these two met.

It may seem that I dont rate Hagler highly, I do, I just feel he was right at 160 and would give away too many intangibles at 175

Qawi was stronger, but Hagler brings more of everything else. Tiger was indeed very strong.

In the end, I like that Hagler stayed put to dominate his division. It was the smart move in every direction. If there is plenty to do in consolidating your own kingdom, why invade another? Bush could have learned from Hagler.

[Jear]

Qawi was stronger, but Hagler brings more of everything else. Tiger was indeed very strong.

In the end, I like that Hagler stayed put to dominate his division. It was the smart move in every direction. If there is plenty to do in consolidating your own kingdom, why invade another? Bush could have learned from Hagler.

All valid points no arguements here

[combatesdeboxeo]

no offence but this thread is just stupid.... patterson and spinks would absolutely destroy hagler. these people give no shit for patterson.... floyd would destroy lhw as bob foster, archie moore,antonio tarver... and these men would beat marvin.... floyd patterson was a hell of fighter he destroyed archie moore much faster than marciano did. patterson would murder hagler. in your next thread you might say that sugar ray robinson would outbox george foreman or floyd mayweather would beat joe frazier by ud. lmao

[Son of Gaul]

How do you see these two interesting matchups unfold?

Would Patterson vs Hagler be decided within a few rounds as both were pretty much (educated) come forward fighters? Could Hagler take Spinks' power shots?

The interesting thing is that Spinks vs Hagler could actually have happened.

Really? When? After the Hearns fight?

[Son of Gaul]

I'm sure that I'm not the first to say this but...I have a really difficult time seeing Hagler at 175. I mean the guy was already considered really muscular for a MW. It's like asking Gamboa to move up and fight at 147 or Mancini to fight at 160.

[bck620]

I can't see anyone at or near 160 stopping Marvin. In any era, on any planet. The guy was never even seriously hurt as a pro or ametuer... never. And look who he tangled with. Top 3 chins of all time. Plus, his workrate was insane. Marvin takes both of these guys. And Tarver beating Marvin?

[MRBILL]

"Patty and Spinks" are too big and powerful for the great 160 pounder Hagler if they were to fight anywhere between 165 to 175 pounds.... Hagler doesn't do well with them dude's..... NO!
:-(:deal

MR.BILL:hat

[combatesdeboxeo]

I can't see anyone at or near 160 stopping Marvin. In any era, on any planet. The guy was never even seriously hurt as a pro or ametuer... never. And look who he tangled with. Top 3 chins of all time. Plus, his workrate was insane. Marvin takes both of these guys. And Tarver beating Marvin?
LIKE OTHER FRIEND SAID , MARVIN WAS MUSCULAR FOR A MIDDLEWEIGHT, HE VERY DIFFICULTLY COULD FIGHT AT SUPERMIDDLE, ANTONIO TARVER WAS A LHW AND HE DID HIT VERY HARD, OF COURSE HE WOULD BEAT MARVIN HAGLER, MARVIN WAS GOOD IN HIS WEIGHT. MAYBE YOU THINK THAT HAGLER WOULD TAKE ALI´S SHOTS BECAUSE ALI DIDN´T HIT SO HARD FOR A HW.

THE MARVIN FANS THINK THAT HE WAS SUPERMAN. MARVIN HAGLER WAS A GREAT MIDDLE WEIGHT, END OF THE HISTORY. HE WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN MARVELOUS IN THE LHW. MAYBE YOU THINK THAT SUGAR RAY ROBINSON WOULD BEAT RON LYLE:rofl

[mcvey]

How do you see these two interesting matchups unfold?

Would Patterson vs Hagler be decided within a few rounds as both were pretty much (educated) come forward fighters? Could Hagler take Spinks' power shots?

The interesting thing is that Spinks vs Hagler could actually have happened.

I see Marvin being stopped in both fights.