What if Bowe had faced Lewis in his first defense

[lefthook31]

A lot of speculation on who would have won this fight, mostly based on their meeting in the olympic finals. One must take into consideration what happened once both fighters went pro. Bowe hooked up with the legendary Eddie Futch, who often said Bowe had the physical talent and potential better than any fighter he had seen or worked with. He developed a complete fighting machine, capable of infighting, and boxing beautifully behind an excellent left jab. His style was worked perfectly to adjust to the pro game, and he was one of the first big men who could fight well on the inside and outside.
Lewis on the other hand turned pro under the guidance of Pepe Correa, who was a less experienced trainer. Lewis simply didnt improve much as a pro. His jab was decent, but he relied solely on the big right hand that was often telegraphed and left him grossly off balance. His technique was sloppy, and he never looked like the technically sound fighter Bowe was, until much further in his career once Emanuel Steward took over as his chief trainer. Sure Lewis improved tremendously after hooking up with Steward, while Bowe got lazier and worse as a fighter, but had Bowe faced Lewis after beating Evander Holyfield, he most likely would have exposed Lewis and beat him badly.

[lefthook31]

He would've been KO'd. :yep
Boy thats a very informative post, please explain why?

[Drexl]

We'll never know because Bowe bitched-out and fought Mike Dokes and Jesse Ferguson (9 losses in his previous 15 fights) instead of Lewis, who he had already agreed to fight before Evander-Bowe and Lewis-Ruddock even happened.

[lefthook31]

Bowe had a very big size advantage over Holyfield. 6'5" versus a former cruiserweight (but a great one) that is 6'2"-6'2"1/2 and he had a big weight advantage - 235 versus 205 - and he had a three inch reach advantage. Lennox on the other hand, is a big, strong heavyweight who holds a reach advantage over Bowe, same height and is around the same weight. Bowe won't be able to outjab Lennox. Lennox's defense is better, and he is IMO by far a harder puncher.

Lennox also does very good when he's fighting bigger heavyweights and seems to fight more aggressively.

Not really at that time. Both were similar physically, and Bowe at that time possessed the better jab, and also liked to mix it up on the inside using his jab and right hand to get inside. Lewis on the other hand was lost on the inside usually getting very sloppy and amatuerish.
Later Bruno who didnt possess a jab as good as Bowes at the time, easily oujabbed Lewis before getting caught trying to finish Lewis in the corner when he hurt him. Bowe was a much better fighter and finisher than Bruno.

[cuchulain]

Boy thats a very informative post, please explain why?


You would have to get Bowe top explain it to you.

He's the dude who didn't figure he could take Lewis.

[Steve Fox]

Bowe's trainer is hardly likely to say that his new money-spinner is going to be nothing more than average, is he?

[lefthook31]

You would have to get Bowe top explain it to you.

He's the dude who didn't figure he could take Lewis.

I dont know about that. I dont think Bowe had very much to do with the decision at all. Lewis was always going to be out there. If you were Bowes manager and you just got the title, and you had a chance at two easy fights with big paydays, one being in his hometown, would you take it or go right into another tough fight against Lewis? Sure Lewis was a bigger payday but not that much bigger that is was worth the risk at that time after just winning the title. Most fighters try to do that when they win the title, just as Vitali did with Williams and Sanders, Holyfield and Moorer took Foreman, not knowing how tough he would be, Tyson took Holyfield. Fighters have a brief time period at the top and their managers if they're smart, take adavantage as long as they can. If Im not mistaken the fight was signed before the Mcall fight but Lewis was knocked out.

[barneyrub]

A lot of speculation on who would have won this fight, mostly based on their meeting in the olympic finals. One must take into consideration what happened once both fighters went pro. Bowe hooked up with the legendary Eddie Futch, who often said Bowe had the physical talent and potential better than any fighter he had seen or worked with. He developed a complete fighting machine, capable of infighting, and boxing beautifully behind an excellent left jab. His style was worked perfectly to adjust to the pro game, and he was one of the first big men who could fight well on the inside and outside.
Lewis on the other hand turned pro under the guidance of Pepe Correa, who was a less experienced trainer. Lewis simply didnt improve much as a pro. His jab was decent, but he relied solely on the big right hand that was often telegraphed and left him grossly off balance. His technique was sloppy, and he never looked like the technically sound fighter Bowe was, until much further in his career once Emanuel Steward took over as his chief trainer. Sure Lewis improved tremendously after hooking up with Steward, while Bowe got lazier and worse as a fighter, but had Bowe faced Lewis after beating Evander Holyfield, he most likely would have exposed Lewis and beat him badly.He didnt turn pro under pepe correa, but when he did change to Correa his progress stagnated.

[lefthook31]

Bowe's trainer is hardly likely to say that his new money-spinner is going to be nothing more than average, is he?
I dont think Futch had any reason to make Bowe out to be something he wasnt. He was an old well respected non BS type of trainer.

[Steve Fox]

I dont think Futch had any reason to make Bowe out to be something he wasnt. He was an old well respected non BS type of trainer.I consider myself a non BS sort of a person, but if I'd just got a new job, I'm hardly going to come out and say my new boss is a C, am I?

[lefthook31]

I consider myself a non BS sort of a person, but if I'd just got a new job, I'm hardly going to come out and say my new boss is a C, am I?
Your not going to say hes a great guy either if hes a-hole or a worthless piece of sh*t, are you? Im sure Futch wouldnt have been so high on Bowe if he thought otherwise.

[Steve Fox]

Your not going to say hes a great guy either if hes a-hole or a worthless piece of sh*t, are you? Im sure Futch wouldnt have been so high on Bowe if he thought otherwise.If I was being asked questions knowing full well my new employer would hear my comments, I probably would.

[lefthook31]

If I was being asked questions knowing full well my new employer would hear my comments, I probably would.
Well then I wouldnt consider you a no BS type of guy.:good Bowe was certainly backing it up in the ring.

[Steve Fox]

Well then I wouldnt consider you a no BS type of guy.:good Bowe was certainly backing it up in the ring.If he had said that Bowe was potentially mentally unstable and destined for prison, you'd have a better case.

[lefthook31]

If he had said that Bowe was potentially mentally unstable and destined for prison, you'd have a better case.

I think if you watch the postfight interview after the Gonzalez fight you will see what kind of person Futch was. The fact that he left Bowe for not staying focused, shows me he wasnt there just for a payday.

[Steve Fox]

I think if you watch the postfight interview after the Gonzalez fight you will see what kind of person Futch was. The fact that he left Bowe for not staying focused, shows me he wasnt there just for a payday.Manny Steward said part of the reason he wanted to train Lewis, was to help make the greatest all-round fighting machine ever.

[sst]

Bowe was a pretty good fighter but Lewis was a great one. Ko win for Lewis.

[Bigcat]

i dont really like to predict outcomes in fights of this nature, but it sure would have been a very competetive fight.. Bowe may at that time have had an edge over Lewis, He also was the more proven heavy atthe time which can play a role in confidence for the Brooklyn man.. Lennox would never havebeen anyones pushover but became a more whole heavyweight years later after regaining the title.. Losing to Oliver was the best thing to have happened to Lennox..

[Sonny Carson]

Bowe was a pretty good fighter but Lewis was a great one. Ko win for Lewis.
Bowe was better than him in 92. I would go with Bowe taking on the younger Lewis. I would go with the later Lewis to beat Bowe though.

[Bummy Davis]

Lewis was the better fighter

[Sonny Carson]

Lewis was the better fighter
Yeah but not until he got Manny Stewerd as his trainer.

[Steve Fox]

i dont really like to predict outcomes in fights of this nature, but it sure would have been a very competetive fight.. Bowe may at that time have had an edge over Lewis, He also was the more proven heavy atthe time which can play a role in confidence for the Brooklyn man.. Lennox would never havebeen anyones pushover but became a more whole heavyweight years later after regaining the title.. Losing to Oliver was the best thing to have happened to Lennox..Had Bowe had any confidence of beating Lewis, they may actually have fought.

[thesandman]

I think that Steward summed up what happened in the ams, and said it would have happend in the pros.

He said Bowe outboxed Lewis early. After that, Lewis got more physical, and tried to rough Bowe up - who didn't like it.

Same thing in the pros around that time IMO. Bowe was probably the more complete fighter at that stage, but I think Lewis eventually gets to him and stops him. Bowe wasn't hard to hit really.

IMO, Lewis (at that point in his career) turns it into a brawl, and takes it by TKO.

[barneyrub]

Lewis was a better fighter under John Davenport than Pepe Correrra, he looked good aginst Ruddock in the early days of pepe but once Pepe`s influence took effect Lewis`s progress stagnanted a bit and his jab wasnt half as snappy as it was under Davenport.

[lefthook31]

I think that Steward summed up what happened in the ams, and said it would have happend in the pros.

He said Bowe outboxed Lewis early. After that, Lewis got more physical, and tried to rough Bowe up - who didn't like it.

Same thing in the pros around that time IMO. Bowe was probably the more complete fighter at that stage, but I think Lewis eventually gets to him and stops him. Bowe wasn't hard to hit really.

IMO, Lewis (at that point in his career) turns it into a brawl, and takes it by TKO.
Yeah but Bowe became a mean snarling heavyweight after winning the title. He puched out larry Donald at the press conference for talking shit, and absolutely destroyed Gonzalez, one of the worst beatings Ive seen. It would have been a good fight,but Bowe just had too many weapons at that time compared to lewis.

[thesandman]

Yeah but Bowe became a mean snarling heavyweight after winning the title. He puched out larry Donald at the press conference for talking shit, and absolutely destroyed Gonzalez, one of the worst beatings Ive seen. It would have been a good fight,but Bowe just had too many weapons at that time compared to lewis.

Who gives a fuck what he did at press conferences?

Lewis had just about taken Ruddocks head off in the ring. So what? Tyson bit Lewis on the leg in a press conference, didn't seem to do him much good in the ring.

Bowe may have been mean and snarling against guys he was bigger than. I really don't see that counting for much against Lewis. And it certainly woudln't have helped his already average defence.

In fact, it just proves my point that the fight would have become a brawl, which at that point in time, I would favour Lewis in.

[Zakman]

had Bowe faced Lewis after beating Evander Holyfield, he most likely would have exposed Lewis and beat him badly.

Agree completely, and for all the reasons you covered. The early 90s Bowe was simply a more developed fighter than the early 90s Lewis. Believe me, no one is more disappointed that they did not meet than I, for I think they would be both be viewed quite differently had this occurred.

[lefthook31]

Who gives a fuck what he did at press conferences?

Lewis had just about taken Ruddocks head off in the ring. So what? Tyson bit Lewis on the leg in a press conference, didn't seem to do him much good in the ring.

Bowe may have been mean and snarling against guys he was bigger than. I really don't see that counting for much against Lewis. And it certainly woudln't have helped his already average defence.

In fact, it just proves my point that the fight would have become a brawl, which at that point in time, I would favour Lewis in.
You said he didnt like a rough fight, which was clearly not true after he won the title. Also if it became a brawl, Bowe was much better equipped to brawl at that point. He had an awesome uppercut and right hand.

[Stinky gloves]

Bowe would lost then we would have 3logy between Holyfield - Lewis,
then Lewis would won, then Golota would bounce Lewis nuts for a while.

[thesandman]

You said he didnt like a rough fight, which was clearly not true after he won the title. Also if it became a brawl, Bowe was much better equipped to brawl at that point. He had an awesome uppercut and right hand.

I guess we agree to disagree then. Bowe liked a rough fight IMO when the other guy was smaller than him eg Holy. I don't think he would have liked it as much when the other guy was just as big as him.

In a battle of right hands, I think Lewis's is harder, and would have landed more. Of course Bowe could have won, but I think Lewis was more likely to win.

Of course with 2 guys like that, both are very good fighters so nothing is certain.

[lefthook31]

Bowe would lost then we would have 3logy between Holyfield - Lewis,
then Lewis would won, then Golota would bounce Lewis nuts for a while.

Please take into consideration the event leading up to the Golota fight. At that point Bowe was in horrible shape from gaining so much weight between the previous fights. Eddie Futch had just about had it with Bowe and really wanted to leave Bowe at that point. Bowe spent his entire camps dropping weight, and his skills had eroded terribly. He abandoned his jab and his right hand became a looped mess. Bowe vastly underated Golota at the time calling him a chump and a robot. That was pretty much the beginning of the end for Bowe.
The purpose of this thread was to discuss how a greener Lewis would have faced against a well conditioned well seasoned Bowe, coming off a huge win with Evander Holyfield, and Lewis demolition of a twice Tyson brutalized Ruddock.

[Irländsk]

Shit that would've been a good fight. I also give the advantage to Bowe as I feel he was the more complete fighter at that time. And he was a much better infighter than Lewis by a wide margin, which i think is where the fight would've been won as they were evenly matched from a jabbing distance. Many people forget how good Bowe was at that time because he went downhill so quickly after the title binning incident.

[bigG]

i have posted re this fight several times...i actually believe that bowe would have won wether it was a boxing match or a brawl....bowe had better movement, better jab and loved the roughhouse infighting with that big upercut of his...it is intriguing cos he would be facing a man more than physically his match, but at that point i dont think lewis had the sheer ability, or belief of bowe...could you ever see bowe gettin ko'd by oliver mcall...at any point in his career..??..everyone always says bowe ducked lewis....bowes managemant perhaps ducked lewis with their eye on a bigger paycheck later, but bowe, at that point in his career would have had too much for lewis.....lewis became a better fighter later, for sure, but at that point, bowe had all the tools and would have stopped lewis around 8 or 9......and all this shit re tha amatures......diffrent fighters...henry tillman beat tyson...duane bobick beat holmes...gonzales was ko'ing guys left and right.....none of them made a big noise in the pros......bowe right after holyfield with futch training him was no easy ride for any hw...

[Vanboxingfan]

Please take into consideration the event leading up to the Golota fight. At that point Bowe was in horrible shape from gaining so much weight between the previous fights. Eddie Futch had just about had it with Bowe and really wanted to leave Bowe at that point. Bowe spent his entire camps dropping weight, and his skills had eroded terribly. He abandoned his jab and his right hand became a looped mess. Bowe vastly underated Golota at the time calling him a chump and a robot. That was pretty much the beginning of the end for Bowe.
The purpose of this thread was to discuss how a greener Lewis would have faced against a well conditioned well seasoned Bowe, coming off a huge win with Evander Holyfield, and Lewis demolition of a twice Tyson brutalized Ruddock.

I personally think that since Bowe was legally bound to fight Lewis and gave up his title rather than fight him, HE felt he would have lost. Certainly the demolishing of Ruddock along with his loss to Lewis played big roles in this. And having already felt Lewis' power in the amateurs he likely didn't think he could have dealt with it. There really isn't another way to interprete his decision to dump the belt rather than fight Lewis. It's not like they never had the chance to fight.

[Vanboxingfan]

i have posted re this fight several times...i actually believe that bowe would have won wether it was a boxing match or a brawl....bowe had better movement, better jab and loved the roughhouse infighting with that big upercut of his...it is intriguing cos he would be facing a man more than physically his match, but at that point i dont think lewis had the sheer ability, or belief of bowe...could you ever see bowe gettin ko'd by oliver mcall...at any point in his career..??..everyone always says bowe ducked lewis....bowes managemant perhaps ducked lewis with their eye on a bigger paycheck later, but bowe, at that point in his career would have had too much for lewis.....lewis became a better fighter later, for sure, but at that point, bowe had all the tools and would have stopped lewis around 8 or 9......and all this shit re tha amatures......diffrent fighters...henry tillman beat tyson...duane bobick beat holmes...gonzales was ko'ing guys left and right.....none of them made a big noise in the pros......bowe right after holyfield with futch training him was no easy ride for any hw...

Well if Bowe actually believed what you do, why didn't they fight? In addition to Bowe being obligated to fight it was bigger than any fight he ended up taking and if he thought he could win, why wouldn't he have wanted to avenge his loss in the Olympics. Most people aiming for a Gold metal in the Olympics take winning it very very seriously, I would assume he would have loved to knock Lewis out for taking it from him if he thought he could. And the only reason we didn't see them fight was because Bowe refused to let it happen.

[lefthook31]

i have posted re this fight several times...i actually believe that bowe would have won wether it was a boxing match or a brawl....bowe had better movement, better jab and loved the roughhouse infighting with that big upercut of his...it is intriguing cos he would be facing a man more than physically his match, but at that point i dont think lewis had the sheer ability, or belief of bowe...could you ever see bowe gettin ko'd by oliver mcall...at any point in his career..??..everyone always says bowe ducked lewis....bowes managemant perhaps ducked lewis with their eye on a bigger paycheck later, but bowe, at that point in his career would have had too much for lewis.....lewis became a better fighter later, for sure, but at that point, bowe had all the tools and would have stopped lewis around 8 or 9......and all this shit re tha amatures......diffrent fighters...henry tillman beat tyson...duane bobick beat holmes...gonzales was ko'ing guys left and right.....none of them made a big noise in the pros......bowe right after holyfield with futch training him was no easy ride for any hw...

THis is exactly what I believe. Too many people read into the hype and BS that surrounds a fight by managers, promoters, and media, that have their own agenda. The fight didnt happen because of the greed of the sanctioning bodies and management of the fighters, not because Bowe was scared of Lewis.

[lefthook31]

Well if Bowe actually believed what you do, why didn't they fight? In addition to Bowe being obligated to fight it was bigger than any fight he ended up taking and if he thought he could win, why wouldn't he have wanted to avenge his loss in the Olympics. Most people aiming for a Gold metal in the Olympics take winning it very very seriously, I would assume he would have loved to knock Lewis out for taking it from him if he thought he could. And the only reason we didn't see them fight was because Bowe refused to let it happen.

Lets flip it around. If Lewis had just won the title from Holyfield, and Bowe was the #1 contender, would Bowe have just kept his mouth shut and fought someone else avoiding his title shot? Or would he tell everyone who listened he wanted the fight and Lewis was avoiding him if Lewis looked to make two other defenses?

[bigG]

Well if Bowe actually believed what you do, why didn't they fight? In addition to Bowe being obligated to fight it was bigger than any fight he ended up taking and if he thought he could win, why wouldn't he have wanted to avenge his loss in the Olympics. Most people aiming for a Gold metal in the Olympics take winning it very very seriously, I would assume he would have loved to knock Lewis out for taking it from him if he thought he could. And the only reason we didn't see them fight was because Bowe refused to let it happen.

c'mon bro..now your suggesting that fighters get to fight who they want when they want.....like it or not, its the management/moneymen who control the fighters.....a coupla impressive wins for em both then a unification and the public clamour for the fight would have been huge, and it would have been financially massive......this didnt happen, so you gotta say that bowes handlers gave him the wrong advice.....but hey, we will never know, but my opinion, seing as i was asked for it, is that bowe would have beat lewis at that point in their careers..and as another poster suggested, history would judge em both differently.....bowe was, literally, a huge waste of talent.....lewis was a great champion who has beaten every man he ever faced in a ring......i prefer bowes gung ho style of fighting so my judgement may be clouded.....i remember thinking holy would mullah bowe in their first fight and that was the fight that made a beleiver of me........the kid had huge natural talent and could fight...

[markclow]

Link or STFU

[PATSYS]

There must be good reasons why Bowe dicked Lewis.

I can only base on what we all saw:

1. Lewis kod Bowe in the Olympics
2. Golota (the first big skilled Bowe fought) beat up Bowe
3. Lewis disposed Golota like a bum

Feel free to draw your rational conclusions...

[sean]

Barry McGuigan strongly fancied Lennox Lewis to beat Riddick Bowe in 93 until he sat in the SKY TV watching Bowe vs Ferguson....McGuigan then changed his mind saying he though Bowe looked Awsome and that he did not think Lennox Lewis could handle Riddick Bowe and that Bowe`s performance had completly changed his opinion of who would win should they ever meet

bowe after beating ferguson 23 wins 137 losses (10 ko`s)
in hugely impressive fashion shocking the bookies who had made bowe a 1,000,356,000 to 1 on favourite duly went on a few months later to lose to evander holyfield.

mcguigan said after the second holyfield fight

" i cannot beleive i picked that fat/unmotivated /slow tub of lard to have beaten lewis "

[bigG]

yeah...but we are debating if lewis had fought bowe before golata aint we??....hell, i coulda beat bowe after golota mugged him...

[bigG]

..ok so maybe i couldnt have beaten bowe, but y'all catch my drift...we are taking about a prime, peak condition bowe vs a ll who was still to realise his potential.......

[lefthook31]

..ok so maybe i couldnt have beaten bowe, but y'all catch my drift...we are taking about a prime, peak condition bowe vs a ll who was still to realise his potential.......
Thats right.:good

[lefthook31]

bowe after beating ferguson 23 wins 137 losses (10 ko`s)
in hugely impressive fashion shocking the bookies who had made bowe a 1,000,356,000 to 1 on favourite duly went on a few months later to lose to evander holyfield.

mcguigan said after the second holyfield fight

" i cannot beleive i picked that fat/unmotivated /slow tub of lard to have beaten lewis "
stupid post as always from a career (old boxing.com) Lewis nuthugger.

[Sonny's jab]

There must be good reasons why Bowe dicked Lewis.

I can only base on what we all saw:

1. Lewis kod Bowe in the Olympics
2. Golota (the first big skilled Bowe fought) beat up Bowe
3. Lewis disposed Golota like a bum

Feel free to draw your rational conclusions...

You forgot to compare what Bowe did to a prime Holyfield in 1992 against what Lewis did against an aging Holyfield in 1999.

Bowe beat Holyfield BADLY, knocked him down, had him in all sorts of trouble.
Lewis certainly didn't.

[lefthook31]

You forgot to compare what Bowe did to a prime Holyfield in 1992 against what Lewis did against an aging Holyfield in 1999.

Bowe beat Holyfield BADLY, knocked him down, had him in all sorts of trouble.
Lewis certainly didn't.

Patsy is really looking like a patsy now. :yep

[Drexl]

Patsy is really looking like a patsy now. :yep

A+B does not = C in boxing. As Patsys, Sonny's Jab and you should all know.

The only semi-relevant argument was when Patsys pointed out that Lewis beat Bowe in the ams. What either did to another fighter has no bearing on anything.

[Loufatski]

bowe after beating ferguson 23 wins 137 losses (10 ko`s)
in hugely impressive fashion shocking the bookies who had made bowe a 1,000,356,000 to 1 on favourite duly went on a few months later to lose to evander holyfield.

mcguigan said after the second holyfield fight

" i cannot beleive i picked that fat/unmotivated /slow tub of lard to have beaten lewis "

I've seen Lewis step into the ring overweight also, except he did a better job hiding it wearing his trunks at his nipples. We'll never know if Bowe would have conquered Lewis. When Bowe got schooled by Golota everyone blamed it on his weight, etc., but that same Bowe would have probably schooled Oliver McCall at the time, the same bum that KO'ed Lewis. Boxing works in strange ways. Brewster KO'ed Wlad and Golota, big deal! Look at what Wlad did to Brewster in the rematch.

[lefthook31]

A+B does not = C in boxing. As Patsys, Sonny's Jab and you should all know.

The only semi-relevant argument was when Patsys pointed out that Lewis beat Bowe in the ams. What either did to another fighter has no bearing on anything.
Then why do people like you put so much emphasis on Lewis beating Razor Ruddock, and using that as the prime example Lewis would beat Bowe. Because he fought more competitively against Tyson maybe? Well if thats the case, you must use the arguement, that an older Holyfield fought competively with a better lennox Lewis, and a prime Holyfield was battered by Bowe. Remember we are talking about this fight taking place shortly after Bowe dismantled Holyfield, and Lewis was still under the guidance of Pepe Correa.

[Loufatski]

yeah...but we are debating if lewis had fought bowe before golata aint we??....hell, i coulda beat bowe after golota mugged him...

Nonsense. If Golota hadn't entered the scene Bowe would eventually fought Lewis and probably still be an active fighter. Golota thoroughly beat and humiliated Bowe, and rightfully so, after Bowe showed absolutely no respect for the man, not even as a pro athlete.

[Drexl]

Then why do people like you put so much emphasis on Lewis beating Razor Ruddock, and using that as the prime example Lewis would beat Bowe.

Show me where I said that.

:deal

[lefthook31]

Nonsense. If Golota hadn't entered the scene Bowe would eventually fought Lewis and probably still be an active fighter. Golota thoroughly beat and humiliated Bowe, and rightfully so, after Bowe showed absolutely no respect for the man, not even as a pro athlete.
While I agree Bowe showed Golota no respect, in fact it was embarrasing as I knew Bowe was going to get his head handed to him, I can say that Lewis never let himself get into the condition Bowe did between fights. He would look like the present day Buster Douglas between fights at that time, hardly recognizeable. He killed himself to lost weight, weakening himself terribly by fight time.

[lefthook31]

Show me where I said that.

:deal

Admit your guilt, I dont want to go back through all your posts to prove a point.:hey

[Drexl]

Admit your guilt, I dont want to go back through all your posts to prove a point.:hey

Go for it champ!

:deal

[lefthook31]

Go for it champ!

:deal
:lol:

[El Bombasto]

He would've been KO'd. :yep

:yep

[Shotgun]

Bowe would've lost. Rock Newman knew this and steered his cash cow away from fighting Lewis. Bowe was very carefully managed his whole career and there's a reason he was kept away from big punchers. There's also a reason he got manhandled by the only big and skilled heavyweight he ever fought

Bowe was a very limited fighter who is ridiculously overrated due to matching up almost perfectly against Holyfield. Aside from Holyfield he never beat anyone else worth noting

[Steve Fox]

Riddick Bowe's career ammounted to nothing more than the Holyfield fights. He hand-picked non-entities and then went off the radar. As a champion he was poor. Lewis is an all time great and Bowe was clearly not interested in fighting him, as just like anyone who has the slightest clue about boxing, he knew Lewis was too good for him.

[Vanboxingfan]

Lets flip it around. If Lewis had just won the title from Holyfield, and Bowe was the #1 contender, would Bowe have just kept his mouth shut and fought someone else avoiding his title shot? Or would he tell everyone who listened he wanted the fight and Lewis was avoiding him if Lewis looked to make two other defenses?

I think Lewis would fight who he was legally obligated to fight. Talk is cheap but when legal contracts are signed they have meaning and should be honored. Certainly if Lewis had a legal contract to give Vitali a rematch I would have expected him to honor it and critized him profusely if he didn't.

[Vanboxingfan]

c'mon bro..now your suggesting that fighters get to fight who they want when they want.....like it or not, its the management/moneymen who control the fighters.....

That was true until they signed a contact saying they'd fight the winner of the Ruddock - Lewis fight, then their choices were eliminated. They did have the choice not to sign the agreement, but They CHOSE to and which time their option to fight other fighters was voluntarily surrendered. After that fight they could have fought whomever they wished.

[Vanboxingfan]

There must be good reasons why Bowe dicked Lewis.

I can only base on what we all saw:

1. Lewis kod Bowe in the Olympics
2. Golota (the first big skilled Bowe fought) beat up Bowe
3. Lewis disposed Golota like a bum

Feel free to draw your rational conclusions...

Add the Ruddock blow out and that's my take on it too.

[Shotgun]

Anyone who remembers the Lewis-Dixon fight? Lewis took a stay busy fight against an opponent named Mike Dixon a couple months before the Ruddock fight. They had Bowe as a guest commentator on there and he talked a lot of trash about Lewis and how Ruddock was going to kill him. Anyone who saw that interview knows that Bowe thought very highly of Ruddock and not much of Lewis prior to the fight, it's not hard to imagine Bowe wanted no part of Lewis after seeing him demolish Ruddock the way he did

[lefthook31]

Anyone who remembers the Lewis-Dixon fight? Lewis took a stay busy fight against an opponent named Mike Dixon a couple months before the Ruddock fight. They had Bowe as a guest commentator on there and he talked a lot of trash about Lewis and how Ruddock was going to kill him. Anyone who saw that interview knows that Bowe thought very highly of Ruddock and not much of Lewis prior to the fight, it's not hard to imagine Bowe wanted no part of Lewis after seeing him demolish Ruddock the way he did
You guys are getting this thread confused with the other one. This thread is to determine how badly Bowe would have knocked Lewis out if he fought Lewis as his first defense of the undisputed title. :hey

[thesandman]

You guys are getting this thread confused with the other one. This thread is to determine how badly Bowe would have knocked Lewis out if he fought Lewis as his first defense of the undisputed title. :hey

Riddick Bowe IMO had the shortest peak of any guy rated so highly.

He had a peak (or prime) of 12 rounds. That's what his legacy is based on. He had potential, but end product of 1 night.

He was badly out of condition when losing to Holy in the 2nd fight, but still should have won, but for fan-man (or Para-glider man as the self proclaimed boxing expert called him in another thread....)

[lefthook31]

Riddick Bowe IMO had the shortest peak of any guy rated so highly.

He had a peak (or prime) of 12 rounds. That's what his legacy is based on. He had potential, but end product of 1 night.

He was badly out of condition when losing to Holy in the 2nd fight, but still should have won, but for fan-man (or Para-glider man as the self proclaimed boxing expert called him in another thread....)

He had four fights as champion, and had a few wins after losing to Holy against Donald Mathis and Hide(winning the WBO title) , but looked sloppy. He seemed to get it all together when he was motivated to fight Gonzales, and that was a great fight to watch if you havent seen it, but then he went back to his sloppy self and really let himself go for the Golota fights. I would say his prime was pretty much over after the Gonzales fight. His prime was very short, but for a time, he showed some real stuff, and I think he would have taken Lewis to school if they fought around the time I mention. Lewis was always cocky, and with the win over Bowe, i dont think he realized how much better Bowe had gotten than him as a pro during that time.

[Vanboxingfan]

He had four fights as champion, and had a few wins after losing to Holy against Donald Mathis and Hide(winning the WBO title) , but looked sloppy. He seemed to get it all together when he was motivated to fight Gonzales, and that was a great fight to watch if you havent seen it, but then he went back to his sloppy self and really let himself go for the Golota fights. I would say his prime was pretty much over after the Gonzales fight. His prime was very short, but for a time, he showed some real stuff, and I think he would have taken Lewis to school if they fought around the time I mention. Lewis was always cocky, and with the win over Bowe, i dont think he realized how much better Bowe had gotten than him as a pro during that time.

What an imagination! Even Bowe never dreamed of actually beating Lewis.........:lol: :lol: :lol:

[thesandman]

He had four fights as champion, and had a few wins after losing to Holy against Donald Mathis and Hide(winning the WBO title) , but looked sloppy. He seemed to get it all together when he was motivated to fight Gonzales, and that was a great fight to watch if you havent seen it, but then he went back to his sloppy self and really let himself go for the Golota fights. I would say his prime was pretty much over after the Gonzales fight. His prime was very short, but for a time, he showed some real stuff, and I think he would have taken Lewis to school if they fought around the time I mention. Lewis was always cocky, and with the win over Bowe, i dont think he realized how much better Bowe had gotten than him as a pro during that time.

At that time, Lewis was only better than Bowe in a few areas. Right hand power, defence but much more important - mentality. (Call it arrogance if you like, it is really).

Lewis thought nobody could beat him. Bowe didn't think like that. That is the main difference between them in a head to head fight, and career wise IMO.

[bigG]

has anyone actually read the question....no one is saying bowe is a better fighter than lewis, that would be ridiculous....what the original question was was if bowe fought lewis after he beat holyfield would he have beat him.....yup, bowe had a ridiculously short prime, yup, he squandered his talent, yup, he ate his way out of contention......my opinion is that in that very samll window of opportunity he beats lewis....WHO NONETHELESS WENT ON TO BECOME A FAR GREATER FIGHTER/CHAMPION THAN BOWE.....but hell, we will never know..but thats what makes debating these things so enjoyeable....

[Vanboxingfan]

has anyone actually read the question....no one is saying bowe is a better fighter than lewis, that would be ridiculous....what the original question was was if bowe fought lewis after he beat holyfield would he have beat him.....yup, bowe had a ridiculously short prime, yup, he squandered his talent, yup, he ate his way out of contention......my opinion is that in that very samll window of opportunity he beats lewis....WHO NONETHELESS WENT ON TO BECOME A FAR GREATER FIGHTER/CHAMPION THAN BOWE.....but hell, we will never know..but thats what makes debating these things so enjoyeable....

Oh well if you put it that way of course Bowe Ko him in two...Actually I'm just kidding, of course I read the question but I think Bowe, who beat nobody of note besides Holyfield, who could be inconsistent, would loose to Lewis, the one who blew out Ruddock, and in fact was scared to fight him. The ONLY reason we are even debating this question is because BOWE REFUSED TO FIGHT LEWIS WHEN IT MATTERED and was under contract to do so.

[PATSYS]

You forgot to compare what Bowe did to a prime Holyfield in 1992 against what Lewis did against an aging Holyfield in 1999.

Bowe beat Holyfield BADLY, knocked him down, had him in all sorts of trouble.
Lewis certainly didn't.

Huh? :huh

Lewis had Holyfield in all sorts of trouble in their 1st fight. In their second fight, Lewis still won.

Holyfield had his moments on Bowe in their first fight. Then Holyfield beat Bowe in the 2nd fight.

[thesandman]

Huh? :huh

Lewis had Holyfield in all sorts of trouble in their 1st fight. In their second fight, Lewis still won.

Holyfield had his moments on Bowe in their first fight. Then Holyfield beat Bowe in the 2nd fight.

If you follow their logic, then Lewis has a better chin than Bowe, because Holy dropped Bowe, and not Lewis - even though he landed on Lewis.

therefore Lewis has a better punch than Bowe, AND a better chin, so he would have murderised him in a brawl (which no doubt this fight would have turned into!!)

[lefthook31]

Oh well if you put it that way of course Bowe Ko him in two...Actually I'm just kidding, of course I read the question but I think Bowe, who beat nobody of note besides Holyfield, who could be inconsistent, would loose to Lewis, the one who blew out Ruddock, and in fact was scared to fight him. The ONLY reason we are even debating this question is because BOWE REFUSED TO FIGHT LEWIS WHEN IT MATTERED and was under contract to do so.

Bowe beat nobody besides Holyfield at the time.:yep Are you that clueless?? Who did Lewis beat AT THAT TIME that makes him look better than beating the undisputed heavyweight champion??? Please dont tell me the great Razor Ruddock who was brutalized by Tyson in two previous fights, and went on to accomplish so much in the division was a better opponent than Holyfield at that time.

[DamonD]

Bowe would've lost. Rock Newman knew this and steered his cash cow away from fighting Lewis. Bowe was very carefully managed his whole career and there's a reason he was kept away from big punchers. There's also a reason he got manhandled by the only big and skilled heavyweight he ever fought

Bowe was a very limited fighter who is ridiculously overrated due to matching up almost perfectly against Holyfield. Aside from Holyfield he never beat anyone else worth noting
QFT.
Bowe's record is notably light on genuine HW punchers. Herbie Hide is about the only one (I would love someone to try to argue Gonzalez...)

[Drexl]

QFT.
Bowe's record is notably light on genuine HW punchers. Herbie Hide is about the only one (I would love someone to try to argue Gonzalez...)

What about Gonzalez?!? :twisted:












:D

[DamonD]

Well hey, seeing the Bizarro World some of the people arguing Bowe's corner seem to live in, a washed-up old Reynaldo Snipes is probably a top-level iron-jawed competitor...

[Titan1]

Probably Bowe would have stopped him.

[Vanboxingfan]

Bowe beat nobody besides Holyfield at the time.:yep Are you that clueless?? Who did Lewis beat AT THAT TIME that makes him look better than beating the undisputed heavyweight champion??? Please dont tell me the great Razor Ruddock who was brutalized by Tyson in two previous fights, and went on to accomplish so much in the division was a better opponent than Holyfield at that time.

We know you're related to Bowe in some way but we're back to your circular reasoning once again. Read the posts after mind to get a consensus of the quality of fighters Bowe fight. The only fighter of note is Holyfield who everyone agrees, is inconsistent. So to determine how good Bowe was as a fighter ask who else he beat. He certainly didn't demolish anyone along the likes of a Ruddock or a Golota, that's for damn sure. And as others have duly noted, he pretty much avoided any heavy hitters.

Otherwise you're back to saying "Bowe's has to be a great fighter because he beat Holyfield. And because he beat Holyfield he's a great fighter"

Next you'll be arguing how great Michael Moorer was.

It just doesn't hold up.

That's like saying Rahman must be a great fighter because he beat Lewis. And since only a great fighter can beat Lewis, Rahman must have been a great fighter. So therefore when Lewis avenged his loss to Rahman he beat a great, great fighter..wow..yet another feather in Lewis' cap. I like this game. :yep

[lefthook31]

We know you're related to Bowe in some way but we're back to your circular reasoning once again. Read the posts after mind to get a consensus of the quality of fighters Bowe fight. The only fighter of note is Holyfield who everyone agrees, is inconsistent. So to determine how good Bowe was as a fighter ask who else he beat. He certainly didn't demolish anyone along the likes of a Ruddock or a Golota, that's for damn sure. And as others have duly noted, he pretty much avoided any heavy hitters.

Otherwise you're back to saying "Bowe's has to be a great fighter because he beat Holyfield. And because he beat Holyfield he's a great fighter"

Next you'll be arguing how great Michael Moorer was.

It just doesn't hold up.

That's like saying Rahman must be a great fighter because he beat Lewis. And since only a great fighter can beat Lewis, Rahman must have been a great fighter. So therefore when Lewis avenged his loss to Rahman he beat a great, great fighter..wow..yet another feather in Lewis' cap. I like this game. :yep

LET ME WRITE THIS IN BOLD LETTERS AND CAPS SO MAYBE IT WILL REACH OUT AND SLAP YOU UPSIDE YOUR HEAD. THIS THREAD IS DISCUSSING WHAT WOULD HAVE HAPPENED IF BOWE FACED LEWIS IN HIS FIRST DEFENSE AFTER BEATING HOLYFIELD.
Do you honestly believe that Lewis was still a better fighter than Bowe at that time, because he beat Razor Ruddock and Bowe only beat Evander Holyfield up to that point?:huh
I dont think Bowe is a great fighter only based on the fact he beat Holyfield. If you cant see why he was a great fighter, maybe you should go and watch his earlier fights. He didnt struggle or get knocked out by Mcall or Rahman level opposition during his prime and his game was more complete than any other big man to date.
Oh by the way, Michael Moorer was a great fighter.

[Shotgun]

He didnt struggle or get knocked out by Mcall or Rahman level opposition during his prime and his game was more complete than any other big man to date.
He struggled with an out of shape Tony Tubbs and got a very narrow decision. Aside from his fights with Holyfield and Golota 99% of the opponents he fought were below McCall and Rahman's level so that isn't saying much

He wasn't a complete fighter, that's a myth that's grown with age. He's only complete if you look the other way and ignore his complete lack of defense or his very average outside game. These deficiences were exposed badly against Golota and they were also exposed against Tubbs. They would've been exposed badly if he got into the ring with Lewis, but that's why Rock Newman kept him away from that fight. Deficiences are covered up when you fight exclusively against opponents who don't have the tools or styles to expose them

[Loufatski]

If you follow their logic, then Lewis has a better chin than Bowe, because Holy dropped Bowe, and not Lewis - even though he landed on Lewis.

therefore Lewis has a better punch than Bowe, AND a better chin, so he would have murderised him in a brawl (which no doubt this fight would have turned into!!)

Doesn't work like that. To KO or drop a guy you have to catch him on the right spot at the right time. Guys with better chins (aka stronger necks) recover, while others lay there.

[Loufatski]

Bowe beat nobody besides Holyfield at the time.:yep Are you that clueless?? Who did Lewis beat AT THAT TIME that makes him look better than beating the undisputed heavyweight champion??? Please dont tell me the great Razor Ruddock who was brutalized by Tyson in two previous fights, and went on to accomplish so much in the division was a better opponent than Holyfield at that time.

This is true. I've been saying this all along. Lewis fought "OK" fighters. The fact that Bowe dominated Holyfield means a lot.

[lefthook31]

He struggled with an out of shape Tony Tubbs and got a very narrow decision. Aside from his fights with Holyfield and Golota 99% of the opponents he fought were below McCall and Rahman's level so that isn't saying much

He wasn't a complete fighter, that's a myth that's grown with age. He's only complete if you look the other way and ignore his complete lack of defense or his very average outside game. These deficiences were exposed badly against Golota and they were also exposed against Tubbs. They would've been exposed badly if he got into the ring with Lewis, but that's why Rock Newman kept him away from that fight. Deficiences are covered up when you fight exclusively against opponents who don't have the tools or styles to expose them
PLEASE READ POST 84
He didnt struggle with Tubbs allbeit one of Bowes lesser performances. You too need to read the original post, about the timing of this fight. Were not talking about the Bowe that faced Golota, or the Lewis that faced Rahman. Were talking closer to the Lewis that faced Mcall. Anyway, whats worse getting knocked out by Mcall or winning a unanimous decision against Tubbs in a somewhat competive fight? At the time this fight would have happened Bowe was a far superior professional fighter. 99% of his competition was not below Rahman and Mcall levels, not to mention he wasnt knocked out by them either.
Its ok to not like Bowe because he became a lazy slob, but to call him an average fighter with an average outside game is not even close.

[Vanboxingfan]

He struggled with an out of shape Tony Tubbs and got a very narrow decision. Aside from his fights with Holyfield and Golota 99% of the opponents he fought were below McCall and Rahman's level so that isn't saying much

He wasn't a complete fighter, that's a myth that's grown with age. He's only complete if you look the other way and ignore his complete lack of defense or his very average outside game. These deficiences were exposed badly against Golota and they were also exposed against Tubbs. They would've been exposed badly if he got into the ring with Lewis, but that's why Rock Newman kept him away from that fight. Deficiences are covered up when you fight exclusively against opponents who don't have the tools or styles to expose them

Well Lefthook, ya been schooled!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Loufatski]

PLEASE READ POST 84
He didnt struggle with Tubbs allbeit one of Bowes lesser performances. You too need to read the original post, about the timing of this fight. Were not talking about the Bowe that faced Golota, or the Lewis that faced Rahman. Were talking closer to the Lewis that faced Mcall. Anyway, whats worse getting knocked out by Mcall or winning a unanimous decision against Tubbs in a somewhat competive fight? At the time this fight would have happened Bowe was a far superior professional fighter. 99% of his competition was not below Rahman and Mcall levels, not to mention he wasnt knocked out by them either.
Its ok to not like Bowe because he became a lazy slob, but to call him an average fighter with an average outside game is not even close.

The Bowe that faced Golota is Bowe, period. It's not like it was 10 years after the Holyman fights. Boxers are in the buisiness and they come to fight. Bowe had 2 chances and he was permanently disabled. End of story.

[Vanboxingfan]

PLEASE READ POST 84
He didnt struggle with Tubbs allbeit one of Bowes lesser performances. You too need to read the original post, about the timing of this fight. Were not talking about the Bowe that faced Golota, or the Lewis that faced Rahman. Were talking closer to the Lewis that faced Mcall. Anyway, whats worse getting knocked out by Mcall or winning a unanimous decision against Tubbs in a somewhat competive fight? At the time this fight would have happened Bowe was a far superior professional fighter. 99% of his competition was not below Rahman and Mcall levels, not to mention he wasnt knocked out by them either.
Its ok to not like Bowe because he became a lazy slob, but to call him an average fighter with an average outside game is not even close.

So who are you. You're probably not Bowe, but maybe you're a kid of his, or a cousin (na you can't be that old), or a nephew.

The fact is Bowe was someone with tons of potential, similar to Douglas. Look at the hype he gets, some say the Douglas that fought Tyson would have beaten ANY other fighter, why? because he beat Tyson and Tyson's a great fighter. It doesn't matter that he didn't do anything else before or afterwards, he must of been great on that night because well he beat Tyson. It couldn't be because Tyson was out of shape and didn't train much and consequently fought like crap, now could it?

Except for the Holyfield fights, which are basically a bad style match up for Holyfield, Bowe was a lot of unrealized potential and as such he would have most assuredly have lost to Lewis if he chose to fight him in '93, and the fact he chose not even though he signed an agreement to fight the winner of the Ruddock - Lewis fight, speaks volumes about what he too felt the outcome of a match up would be. This is the same Lewis who beat him in the amateurs and took away his gold metal, which is something people dream about, and train to get, for years and years. It was the perfect time to avenge this loss. But the fact is he knew that between his loss to Lewis years earlier and Lewis' total destruction of Ruddock that he thought he too would be subject to the same experience that Ruddock faced, the same Ruddock who put up a good effort against Tyson, and so he persued a different course of action. It's pretty hard to interpret events much differently than this, given that this is what actually happened.

[lefthook31]

Well Lefthook, ya been schooled!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Way to go when you cant come up with a logical retort.:good
I have answered his post like yours.

[Vanboxingfan]

Way to go when you cant come up with a logical retort.:good
I have answered his post like yours.

Actually I did, and it was right above your post, which you conveniently chose to ignore it. Smart move. :yep

[lefthook31]

The Bowe that faced Golota is Bowe, period. It's not like it was 10 years after the Holyman fights. Boxers are in the buisiness and they come to fight. Bowe had 2 chances and he was permanently disabled. End of story.

Not really my friend. Thats like saying the Roy Jones that fought Tarver in the second fight is the same Roy Jones that was schooling LH's previous to the RUiz fight. Certain things fighters do to their bodies can drastically alter their performances, and Bowe was not a disciplined athelete on his offtime
Bowe lost his discipline to train and maintain himself as a pro fighter, and his skills went down quickly. Maybe the wars with Holyfield, and the rapid weight gains and losses, made Bowe a shot fighter a lot quicker, but its clear it wasnt the same Bowe that fought Holyfield in the first fight.
Regardless of what you think about the Bowe that faced Golota, we are not talking about that. We are talking about the Bowe,(who doesnt even physically look the same as the Bowe who faced Golota :lol: ) who beat Holyfield to win the title. Then THAT Bowe would fight Lewis. Who wins?

[lefthook31]

So who are you. You're probably not Bowe, but maybe you're a kid of his, or a cousin (na you can't be that old), or a nephew.

The fact is Bowe was someone with tons of potential, similar to Douglas. Look at the hype he gets, some say the Douglas that fought Tyson would have beaten ANY other fighter, why? because he beat Tyson and Tyson's a great fighter. It doesn't matter that he didn't do anything else before or afterwards, he must of been great on that night because well he beat Tyson. It couldn't be because Tyson was out of shape and didn't train much and consequently fought like crap, now could it?

Except for the Holyfield fights, which are basically a bad style match up for Holyfield, Bowe was a lot of unrealized potential and as such he would have most assuredly have lost to Lewis if he chose to fight him in '93, and the fact he chose not even though he signed an agreement to fight the winner of the Ruddock - Lewis fight, speaks volumes about what he too felt the outcome of a match up would be. This is the same Lewis who beat him in the amateurs and took away his gold metal, which is something people dream about, and train to get, for years and years. It was the perfect time to avenge this loss. But the fact is he knew that between his loss to Lewis years earlier and Lewis' total destruction of Ruddock that he thought he too would be subject to the same experience that Ruddock faced, the same Ruddock who put up a good effort against Tyson, and so he persued a different course of action. It's pretty hard to interpret events much differently than this, given that this is what actually happened.
So thats your excuse for why Bowe was no good, because it was a bad matchup for Holyfield? Cmon your making yourself look really bad here. How can you compare Douglas to Bowe? Douglas didnt defend his title twice, or regain another portion of the title either. Plus he was knocked out by Holyfield in three rounds. The same Holyfield that Bowe kicked the crap out of.
The fact is Bowe did realize his potential, he just couldnt sustain it, like so many other fighters in the past. Douglas besides the Tyson fight, never got any further, besides a weak post coma comeback, where he was knocked out in two fights.
As far as Ruddock, he was never the same after getting brutalized by Tyson, thats why I think too much emphasis was put on that performance to say Lewis would easily beat Bowe. Look at the events following Lewis' win over Ruddock. Lackluster performances, and a KO loss to Mcall.

[Shotgun]

PLEASE READ POST 84
He didnt struggle with Tubbs allbeit one of Bowes lesser performances. You too need to read the original post, about the timing of this fight. Were not talking about the Bowe that faced Golota, or the Lewis that faced Rahman. Were talking closer to the Lewis that faced Mcall. Anyway, whats worse getting knocked out by Mcall or winning a unanimous decision against Tubbs in a somewhat competive fight? At the time this fight would have happened Bowe was a far superior professional fighter. 99% of his competition was not below Rahman and Mcall levels, not to mention he wasnt knocked out by them either.
Its ok to not like Bowe because he became a lazy slob, but to call him an average fighter with an average outside game is not even close.
Show me where I said he was an average fighter. He did have an average outside game, and is extremely overrated because of being in the right place at the right time to fight Holyfield, who was tailor made for Bowe stylistically.

Please direct me to a fight where he defeated a decent opponent utilizing his outside game and maybe I'll believe you when you say it's above average. The Holyfield fights his best work was done on the inside and he got his ass kicked by Golota from long range. His outside game looked very average against them and they're the only top flight heavyweights he ever fought. If I'm to judge how he'd fare against Lewis in a fight contested from long distance the only fight I can really go on is his fight against Golota, because Golota's the only decent big man he ever fought against. You can say we're not talking about the Bowe that fought Golota but how am I supposed to judge how Bowe matches up against LL when he was fighting tomato cans, journeymen, glass jawed fringe contenders most of his career?

With Bowe he only fought two legit top level heavyweights, so those are the only fights I can judge him on when stacking him up against someone like LL. In his 5 fights against Golota and Holyfield he showed he had a poor defense, a low ring IQ and that he was susceptible to both the jab and the right hand from range. Bowe fans love to say he was "shot" when he fought Golota, but Holyfield never had any problem hitting him with clean shots either

[lefthook31]

Show me where I said he was an average fighter. He did have an average outside game, and is extremely overrated because of being in the right place at the right time to fight Holyfield, who was tailor made for Bowe stylistically.

Please direct me to a fight where he defeated a decent opponent utilizing his outside game and maybe I'll believe you when you say it's above average. The Holyfield fights his best work was done on the inside and he got his ass kicked by Golota from long range. His outside game looked very average against them and they're the only top flight heavyweights he ever fought. If I'm to judge how he'd fare against Lewis in a fight contested from long distance the only fight I can really go on is his fight against Golota, because Golota's the only decent big man he ever fought against. You can say we're not talking about the Bowe that fought Golota but how am I supposed to judge how Bowe matches up against LL when he was fighting tomato cans, journeymen, glass jawed fringe contenders most of his career?

With Bowe he only fought two legit top level heavyweights, so those are the only fights I can judge him on when stacking him up against someone like LL. In his 5 fights against Golota and Holyfield he showed he had a poor defense, a low ring IQ and that he was susceptible to both the jab and the right hand from range. Bowe fans love to say he was "shot" when he fought Golota, but Holyfield never had any problem hitting him with clean shots either

The Donald fight quickly comes to mind. At the time, Donald was undefeated. Would that be a fighter that meets your criteria as Rahman level, and a fighter who primarliy operates from the outside from a good leftjab?:blood
Of course not right, maybe you can come up with some concoted excuse as to why Donald sucked and had no outside game.
So the concussive power of Golota was so much greater than Holyfields that Bowe could stand up to almost three fights of punishment to Holyfield and only a couple rounds with Golota? Lets not start discussing how weak Holy was a puncher, he has dropped some iron chin guys like Mercer. Bowe was clearly a shot fighter against Golota. HMM I wonder why he his speech was so slurry, and he retired shortly after those fights?

[Shotgun]

The Donald fight quickly comes to mind. At the time, Donald was undefeated. Would that be a fighter that meets your criteria as Rahman level, and a fighter who primarliy operates from the outside from a good leftjab?:blood
Of course not right, maybe you can come up with some concoted excuse as to why Donald sucked and had no outside game

Donald was a fringe contender, a solid opponent but never even close to a top level fighter, not to mention packs little punch, so bringing him up is useless in trying figure how a fight against Lennox Lewis would pan out. Sorry but defeating a light punching fringe contender like Donald tells very little about how he'd fare against Lewis

You seem confused about what you're trying to say. You continue to mention Rahman in your posts but then you say we're talking about 1993 so which is it?

You can twist and turn all you want but the fact is Bowe was steered clear of big punchers for basically his entire career by his management. Normally there's a reason for that. And aside from Holyfield and Golota his level of opposition was so low that it's useless to bring up any of his fights aside from the Holyfield and Golota fights when talking about how he would fare against other top level heavyweights

[lefthook31]

Donald was a fringe contender, a solid opponent but never even close to a top level fighter, not to mention packs little punch, so bringing him up is useless in trying figure how a fight against Lennox Lewis would pan out. Sorry but defeating a light punching fringe contender like Donald tells very little about how he'd fare against Lewis

You seem confused about what you're trying to say. You continue to mention Rahman in your posts but then you say we're talking about 1993 so which is it?

You can twist and turn all you want but the fact is Bowe was steered clear of big punchers for basically his entire career by his management. Normally there's a reason for that. And aside from Holyfield and Golota his level of opposition was so low that it's useless to bring up any of his fights aside from the Holyfield and Golota fights when talking about how he would fare against other top level heavyweights

Your a joke, Dokes, Hide, Gonzalez, Seldon, Cooper COetzer, all feather fisted punchers right??
You asked for a fighter with a good outside game. Whose a big puncher with an excellent outside game that Lewis faced thats any better than Donald???? Oh thats right maybe Bruno and Mercer. Bruno was winning until Lewis landed the lucky haymaker, and Mercer fought him to a highly disputed loss. Donald became about as much of a fringe contender as Lewis' entire opponents did. I would say Bowe had a better jab and outside game than Bruno ever did.

[Loufatski]

Not really my friend. Thats like saying the Roy Jones that fought Tarver in the second fight is the same Roy Jones that was schooling LH's previous to the RUiz fight. Certain things fighters do to their bodies can drastically alter their performances, and Bowe was not a disciplined athelete on his offtime
Bowe lost his discipline to train and maintain himself as a pro fighter, and his skills went down quickly. Maybe the wars with Holyfield, and the rapid weight gains and losses, made Bowe a shot fighter a lot quicker, but its clear it wasnt the same Bowe that fought Holyfield in the first fight.
Regardless of what you think about the Bowe that faced Golota, we are not talking about that. We are talking about the Bowe,(who doesnt even physically look the same as the Bowe who faced Golota :lol: ) who beat Holyfield to win the title. Then THAT Bowe would fight Lewis. Who wins?

I can't stand Roy Jones and pretty much only follow heavyweights. Again, Bowe had two chances with Golota. He gave it his best and he had his moments. Bottom line, he got destroyed BOTH times. However, I believe Lewis would have had his hands full with Bowe, regardless.

[Vanboxingfan]

So thats your excuse for why Bowe was no good, because it was a bad matchup for Holyfield? Cmon your making yourself look really bad here. How can you compare Douglas to Bowe? Douglas didnt defend his title twice, or regain another portion of the title either. Plus he was knocked out by Holyfield in three rounds. The same Holyfield that Bowe kicked the crap out of.
The fact is Bowe did realize his potential, he just couldnt sustain it, like so many other fighters in the past. Douglas besides the Tyson fight, never got any further, besides a weak post coma comeback, where he was knocked out in two fights.
As far as Ruddock, he was never the same after getting brutalized by Tyson, thats why I think too much emphasis was put on that performance to say Lewis would easily beat Bowe. Look at the events following Lewis' win over Ruddock. Lackluster performances, and a KO loss to Mcall.

Well if that's the case, why couldn't one just as easily say that Douglas too achieved his potential and just couldn't sustain it. Isn't longivity one of the key components in judging a fighter?

And as far as Ruddock goes, HBO certainly has a different take on Ruddock than you do.

"Undefeated at 21-0, Lewis challenged the ferocious Donovan "Razor" Ruddock on Halloween, 1992. The winner of the bout was expected to battle the winner of the Evander Holyfield-Riddick Bowe bout in a heavyweight elimination tournament that had been agreed upon by all four combatants.

Lewis propelled himself to the top of the heavyweight class by flooring the menacing Ruddock three times to earn a second round stoppage. The victory had seemingly assured Lewis of a shot at the undisputed heavyweight championship of the world (TKO 2)."

And of course we all know that Bowe reneged on his comment to fight Lewis and potentially avenge his olympic defeat and perhaps prove to Lewis who the better pro was. Why?

The answer's so obvious that it's not worth restating. :yep

[Vanboxingfan]

I can't stand Roy Jones and pretty much only follow heavyweights. Again, Bowe had two chances with Golota. He gave it his best and he had his moments. Bottom line, he got destroyed BOTH times. However, I believe Lewis would have had his hands full with Bowe, regardless.

Too bad Bowe himself didn't believe that, then we wouldn't be guessing about the outcome.

[Shotgun]

I would say Bowe had a better jab and outside game than Bruno ever did.

Do you actually have any logical evidence or arguments to back that up?

The fact that you're even referencing glass jawed journeymen like Bert Cooper and Bruce Seldon in Bowe's defense shows how shallow his resume really is

[lefthook31]

I can't stand Roy Jones and pretty much only follow heavyweights. Again, Bowe had two chances with Golota. He gave it his best and he had his moments. Bottom line, he got destroyed BOTH times. However, I believe Lewis would have had his hands full with Bowe, regardless.

Well I was using this as an example. How about Tua. Big difference in the Tua coming up fighting often at 225, as opposed to the fat 240+ plus Tua that became slower and less active once he got his huge signing bonus with america presents.

[Vanboxingfan]

Well I was using this as an example. How about Tua. Big difference in the Tua coming up fighting often at 225, as opposed to the fat 240+ plus Tua that became slower and less active once he got his huge signing bonus with america presents.

Ya know, as a general rule, I don't think it's fair to discredit a fighter who trains stays in shape and is ready to fight against other fighter who chooses not to do so. These are PROFESSIONAL fighters THEY ARE PAID, to be in fighting shape. So if Tua, or Bowe or Douglas show up fat and out of shape and get their asses kicked in the ring, full value to the guy who did the ass kicking. That was exactly what he was suppose to do and he made the effort to train and be in shape. It's certainly not his fault if his opponent never.

[lefthook31]

Do you actually have any logical evidence or arguments to back that up?

The fact that you're even referencing glass jawed journeymen like Bert Cooper and Bruce Seldon in Bowe's defense shows how shallow his resume really is

In response to the question you asked bringing up guys like Cooper and Seldon it made sense. I would say Cooper and Seldon classify a little higher than journeymen. Seldon briefly held the title, and Cooper fought for it and almost knocked out Evander Holyfield.
The only other thing I can say is go back watch Lewis' unimpressive fights leading up to his knockout loss to Mcall and the fights after leading up to the Mercer fight. After losing the title, he had the great fights with Lionel Butler, ****** Fortune, and Tommy Morrison, then the major turning point in his career, a highly disputed win against Ray Mercer, (who I might add was coming off a loss to Evander Holyfield, was 30 pounds heavier, and the same Mercer that lost to Jesse Ferguson that Bowe destroyed in his title defense). Hardly anything outlandishly impressive to make me think Lewis was anything special at that time.
Bowe on the other hand had won the undisputed championship defended his title twice, lost a close rematch with Evander and picked up the WBO title all while Lewis was still adapting to the pro game.

[lefthook31]

Well if that's the case, why couldn't one just as easily say that Douglas too achieved his potential and just couldn't sustain it. Isn't longivity one of the key components in judging a fighter?

And as far as Ruddock goes, HBO certainly has a different take on Ruddock than you do.

"Undefeated at 21-0, Lewis challenged the ferocious Donovan "Razor" Ruddock on Halloween, 1992. The winner of the bout was expected to battle the winner of the Evander Holyfield-Riddick Bowe bout in a heavyweight elimination tournament that had been agreed upon by all four combatants.

Lewis propelled himself to the top of the heavyweight class by flooring the menacing Ruddock three times to earn a second round stoppage. The victory had seemingly assured Lewis of a shot at the undisputed heavyweight championship of the world (TKO 2)."

And of course we all know that Bowe reneged on his comment to fight Lewis and potentially avenge his olympic defeat and perhaps prove to Lewis who the better pro was. Why?

The answer's so obvious that it's not worth restating. :yep
One can say that Douglas reached his full potential, but based on what his full potential consisted of, one can also say he wasnt as good as Bowe. ;)

As far as HBO, they also promoted Mike Grant into the monster he wasnt too.

[bigG]

there is too much if x beat y he must beat z going on here..styles make fights.....you cant judge how fighters would do against each other thru results against common oposition...to take this 'argument' one stage further, and clarify things, for me anyhow...the bowe who beat holyfield first time out beats the lewis who beat ruddock........anytime thereafter, bowe loses....to ll, burger king, mcdonalds and the fucking marine corps.....burnt brightly for, oh, about two seconds...yes i still think he woulda beat lewis at that time..but the fight was never made...so lewis will be remembered as an atg, and bowe as a never was........'cept by me...i remember big daddy giving me some great nights of boxing and some great interviews too.....but hey, i always like the underdog...

[thesandman]

Bowe on the other hand had won the undisputed championship defended his title twice, lost a close rematch with Evander and picked up the WBO title all while Lewis was still adapting to the pro game.

I hate to be a boxrec warrior, but I don't have these things committed to memory, so in a time line from Lewis-Ruddock -> Bowe v Hide, we have this...

October 92
Lewis TKO 2 Ruddock

Nov 92
Bowe UD Holyfield (Undisputed champ)

Feb 03
Bowe TKO 1 Dokes (WBA, IBF)

May 93
Lewis UD Tucker (WBC)
Bowe KO 2 Ferguson (WBA, IBF)

October 93
Lewis TKO 7 Bruno (WBC)

Nov 93
Bowe LOSS MD Holyfield (WBA, IBF)

May 94
Lewis TKO 8 Jackson (WBC)

August 94
Bowe NC Mathis

Sept 94
Lewis LOSS TKO 2 McCall (WBC)

Dec 94
Bowe UD Donald

Mar 05
Bowe KO 6 Hide (WBO)


Not much difference really.

Lewis 4-1-0 with 3 title wins.
Bowe 5-1-0 + 1 NC - which by rights should have been a DQ loss. with 3 title wins. (WBO at this time not worth a *******)


And what you fail badly to mention is that Bowe only had FOUR more fights in him in that part of his career - 2 of which he was getting hammered in, and won by DQ

Bowe beats Holy, Dokes, Ferguson, Donald, Hide.
Lewis beats Ruddock, Tucker, Bruno, jackson.

Holy is better than Ruddock.
Bruno far better than any of Bowes other opponents.

The MD loss to Holy is better than the TKO loss to McCall IMO, although neither guy should really have lost either of those fights.

(one thing that did stand out, is both of these guys are FAAAAAAAAAAR more active than the guys going around today......)

[lefthook31]

there is too much if x beat y he must beat z going on here..styles make fights.....you cant judge how fighters would do against each other thru results against common oposition...to take this 'argument' one stage further, and clarify things, for me anyhow...the bowe who beat holyfield first time out beats the lewis who beat ruddock........anytime thereafter, bowe loses....to ll, burger king, mcdonalds and the fucking marine corps.....burnt brightly for, oh, about two seconds...yes i still think he woulda beat lewis at that time..but the fight was never made...so lewis will be remembered as an atg, and bowe as a never was........'cept by me...i remember big daddy giving me some great nights of boxing and some great interviews too.....but hey, i always like the underdog...

Good post.:good But Bowe was a little better than never was, he has to be considered as one of the top fighters of the early 90's, right along Tyson, Holy, and Lewis, with Lewis not really emerging as an elite fighter to late 95.

[lefthook31]

I hate to be a boxrec warrior, but I don't have these things committed to memory, so in a time line from Lewis-Ruddock -> Bowe v Hide, we have this...

October 92
Lewis TKO 2 Ruddock

Nov 92
Bowe UD Holyfield (Undisputed champ)

Feb 03
Bowe TKO 1 Dokes (WBA, IBF)

May 93
Lewis UD Tucker (WBC)
Bowe KO 2 Ferguson (WBA, IBF)

October 93
Lewis TKO 7 Bruno (WBC)

Nov 93
Bowe LOSS MD Holyfield (WBA, IBF)

May 94
Lewis TKO 8 Jackson (WBC)

August 94
Bowe NC Mathis

Sept 94
Lewis LOSS TKO 2 McCall (WBC)

Dec 94
Bowe UD Donald

Mar 05
Bowe KO 6 Hide (WBO)


Not much difference really.

Lewis 4-1-0 with 3 title wins.
Bowe 5-1-0 + 1 NC - which by rights should have been a DQ loss. with 3 title wins. (WBO at this time not worth a *******)


And what you fail badly to mention is that Bowe only had FOUR more fights in him in that part of his career - 2 of which he was getting hammered in, and won by DQ

Bowe beats Holy, Dokes, Ferguson, Donald, Hide.
Lewis beats Ruddock, Tucker, Bruno, jackson.

Holy is better than Ruddock.
Bruno far better than any of Bowes other opponents.

The MD loss to Holy is better than the TKO loss to McCall IMO, although neither guy should really have lost either of those fights.

(one thing that did stand out, is both of these guys are FAAAAAAAAAAR more active than the guys going around today......)

I dotn really want to argue much more about this, but you failed to mention that Lewis was also getting his head handed to him by Bruno before landing the lucky haymaker. Lewis got the win, but came close to being stopped himself. I didnt mention Golota, because Bowe was pretty much shot as a fighter, and Lewis was entering the part of his career where he became a "real" fighter, on par with Riddick Bowes skills, under the guidance of Emanuel Steward.
The Riddick Bowe that fought Holyfield in the first fight would have had a much tougher fight with the well schooled Emanuel Stewards Lennox Lewis.

[bigG]

its a myth that lewis was 'getting his head handed to him' by bruno......he was, possibly, loseing a close fight...till big frank got careless.......im a huge fan of bruno, and, tbh dont much care for ll style of fighting...but credit where its due, he matured into an atg and will be remembered by history much higher than bowe....i hear what your saying, yes bowe when he was 'on' was up there with tyson and lewis etc...in the early ninties....but as history will show when you pick up a book 50 years from now, he will only be remembered by casual observers as a big lump who briefly held the title......sad, but true...i was, and still am, one of the biggest holyfield fans around.....and the night bowe beat holy for the title was one of the best hw fights ever...i do however take exception to those who say that bowe 'owned' or 'bossed' holyfield that night...he clearly won a pulsating match where both fighters showed grit, heart and sheer cojones...he made a fan out of me that night for sure...one 'intangible' that isnt mentioned much in this thread is one that woulda made a helluva difference in the propsed fight...as a hw bowe had a much much better chin than lewis, and at least equal power.....

[lefthook31]

its a myth that lewis was 'getting his head handed to him' by bruno......he was, possibly, loseing a close fight...till big frank got careless.......im a huge fan of bruno, and, tbh dont much care for ll style of fighting...but credit where its due, he matured into an atg and will be remembered by history much higher than bowe....i hear what your saying, yes bowe when he was 'on' was up there with tyson and lewis etc...in the early ninties....but as history will show when you pick up a book 50 years from now, he will only be remembered by casual observers as a big lump who briefly held the title......sad, but true...i was, and still am, one of the biggest holyfield fans around.....and the night bowe beat holy for the title was one of the best hw fights ever...i do however take exception to those who say that bowe 'owned' or 'bossed' holyfield that night...he clearly won a pulsating match where both fighters showed grit, heart and sheer cojones...he made a fan out of me that night for sure...one 'intangible' that isnt mentioned much in this thread is one that woulda made a helluva difference in the propsed fight...as a hw bowe had a much much better chin than lewis, and at least equal power.....

Bowe was a very good puncher. I recently watched the Lewis Bruno fight and was amazed how badly Bruno outjabbed Lewis. He certainly outclassed him that night from a boxing standpoint. Bruno just got stupid when he had Lewis hurt in the corner and allowed Lewis to land that lunging hook. The way Lewis finished Bruno, he really should have been DQ'd too, he was holding Brunos head with his left so he could land his right. Blatant fouling.

[Vanboxingfan]

Bowe was a very good puncher. I recently watched the Lewis Bruno fight and was amazed how badly Bruno outjabbed Lewis. He certainly outclassed him that night from a boxing standpoint. Bruno just got stupid when he had Lewis hurt in the corner and allowed Lewis to land that lunging hook. The way Lewis finished Bruno, he really should have been DQ'd too, he was holding Brunos head with his left so he could land his right. Blatant fouling.

Lewis, Ali, and Holyfield all reguarly fouled blatantly. Lewis holding the head of a fighter while delivering uppercuts, best example Grant. Holyfield's numerous headbutts, a la Rahman, and Ali frequently grabbed a fighter behind the head and pulled it down, Frazier was often on the receiving end of this treatment.

[lefthook31]

Lewis, Ali, and Holyfield all reguarly fouled blatantly. Lewis holding the head of a fighter while delivering uppercuts, best example Grant. Holyfield's numerous headbutts, a la Rahman, and Ali frequently grabbed a fighter behind the head and pulled it down, Frazier was often on the receiving end of this treatment.

Oh I forgot to mention how Lewis pulled his opponents head down and put all his weight on the top of their backs to tire them out. Another cheating tactic from the great Lennox lewis.:hey

[barneyrub]

Oh I forgot to mention how Lewis pulled his opponents head down and put all his weight on the top of their backs to tire them out. Another cheating tactic from the great Lennox lewis.:heyNot something he ever employed to the level that Wlad did as shown here,

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[lefthook31]

Not something he ever employed to the level that Wlad did as shown here,

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Yes its no secret Emanuel Steward teaches them to do that, because neither one of them could ever fight inside worth a shit.

[Vanboxingfan]

Oh I forgot to mention how Lewis pulled his opponents head down and put all his weight on the top of their backs to tire them out. Another cheating tactic from the great Lennox lewis.:hey


You could start a thread on Holyfield's "third fist" I think he's KO'd more fighters with his head than with his hands. :yep

[Drexl]

I dotn really want to argue much more about this, but you failed to mention that Lewis was also getting his head handed to him by Bruno before landing the lucky haymaker.


Head handed to him??

It was a majority draw at the time of the stoppage from memory.

I actually had Bruno ahead, but Lennox was NOT getting his head handed to him. Bruno was doing better than expected, that's all. Don't let that cloud your judgement.

[lefthook31]

Head handed to him??

It was a majority draw at the time of the stoppage from memory.

I actually had Bruno ahead, but Lennox was NOT getting his head handed to him. Bruno was doing better than expected, that's all. Don't let that cloud your judgement.

Watch the fight and see for yourself. They gave Lewis a draw against Holyfield in the first fight, did you agree with that judging.:blood

[Shotgun]

Frank Bruno is far above anyone that Bowe fought besides Holy and Golota, and is a bit better than Golota was

[lefthook31]

Frank Bruno is far above anyone that Bowe fought besides Holy and Golota, and is a bit better than Golota was

Bruno was a robot. He was knocked out by every fighter he faced that could punch a little. He held for two rounds straight to survive against Mcall to win the title. Bowe would have stopped Bruno sagging against the ropes just like the other 5 guys did.

[Shotgun]

Bruno was a robot. He was knocked out by every fighter he faced that could punch a little. He held for two rounds straight to survive against Mcall to win the title. Bowe would have stopped Bruno sagging against the ropes just like the other 5 guys did.

None of that diminishes the fact that Bruno was better than anyone Bowe fought besides Holyfield. Doesn't say much for Bowe's resume does it

[Loufatski]

Frank Bruno is far above anyone that Bowe fought besides Holy and Golota, and is a bit better than Golota was

Bruno better than Golota?!? I'm leaving this thread...

[Shotgun]

Bruno better than Golota?!? I'm leaving this thread...

I said he was a bit better than Golota. If you look at the whole package, it's a pretty fair statement. Based on accomplishments he is better. He gave Lewis a lot tougher fight than Golota did, and I doubt he would've lost to Michael Grant or Lamon Brewster. He would've KO'd John Ruiz. Golota may have been more fluid and skilled but he was a mental case and also wasn't as big a puncher as Bruno. If Golota wasn't a total headcase he'd be better than Bruno but he was, although he did beat the shit out of Bowe twice which is what he'll be remembered for. It's the whole chain of events, Bowe was overrated for beating Holyfield, and Golota was overrated for beating up Bowe

[Loufatski]

I said he was a bit better than Golota. If you look at the whole package, it's a pretty fair statement. Based on accomplishments he is better. He gave Lewis a lot tougher fight than Golota did, and I doubt he would've lost to Michael Grant or Lamon Brewster. He would've KO'd John Ruiz. Golota may have been more fluid and skilled but he was a mental case and also wasn't as big a puncher as Bruno. If Golota wasn't a total headcase he'd be better than Bruno but he was, although he did beat the shit out of Bowe twice which is what he'll be remembered for. It's the whole chain of events, Bowe was overrated for beating Holyfield, and Golota was overrated for beating up Bowe

Golota never "fought" Lewis, it was a meltdown. That fight was a jerk-off. Golota would have schooled Bruno more than Bowe. Dominating Holyfield was a great thing for Bowe. Plain and simple.

[Shotgun]

Golota would have schooled Bruno more than Bowe.

Until he got caught with a big punch and either froze up, got himself DQ'd, or quit