Berto on the same track as Lacy

[lefthook31]

Rushing a fighter before they are fully developed is a big no no. Gary Shaw and Lou Dibella being the greedy guys they are, seem to be the kings of it. Berto is showing a lot of promise, but also some of the same flaws Lacy showed leading up to the Calzahge fight. In my opinions Lacy is a ruined fighter.

[HandsOfGold]

I'm gonna wait until I see Lacy fight with a 100% healed shoulder before I judge him ruined or not.

[KillerInstinct]

I'm gonna wait until I see Lacy fight with a 100% healed shoulder before I judge him ruined or not.

I agree. While Lacy did look bad at the 2nd half of the fight, he was really beating up Tyspko during the first couple of rounds and tearing a rotator cuff (or whatever he did) definately would affect his performance. I think Lacy will go on to be a titilist, I think people just refuse to admit the fact that Calzaghe is indeed a great fighter who has Lacy's number. However, Kessler will beat Calz :deal

[He Hate Me]

Berto is a future world champ, another future world champ I hope they won't throw in the fire is chavez jr.

[Illmatic]

Lacy was a top 3 super middle in the world...he just lost to a better fighter, simple as that.

[Asterion]

Lacy was a top 3 super middle in the world...he just lost to a better fighter, simple as that.


:good

[sues2nd]

Lacy was a top 3 super middle in the world...he just lost to a better fighter, simple as that.

Perfectly said (WOW ILL, you turnin over a new leaf....I find myself agreeing with ya alot as of late....Id like to think I had some influence here...:lol: ).

Seriously tho. Lacy was a good fighter and a great puncher...but he just lost to a better fighter, no more, no less.

Lets wait till he fully heals and gets back in there before we start planning his retirement party!

:good

As for Berto, I think he is gonna win this one. I like what I have seen from the kid so far....we will see tho.

[Mrboogie23]

I think Berto has the goods. I like what he's shown up to now.



As far as Lacy is concerned, like has been said, wait until he's returned healed before we say he's shot. he got beat bad by Calzaghe but Calzage is a very good fighter.

No shame in that.

[Illmatic]

Perfectly said (WOW ILL, you turnin over a new leaf....I find myself agreeing with ya alot as of late....Id like to think I had some influence here...:lol: ).

Seriously tho. Lacy was a good fighter and a great puncher...but he just lost to a better fighter, no more, no less.

Lets wait till he fully heals and gets back in there before we start planning his retirement party!

:good

As for Berto, I think he is gonna win this one. I like what I have seen from the kid so far....we will see tho.

:lol: I forget what we even used to argue about...

[sues2nd]

:lol: I forget what we even used to argue about...

:lol:

[Amsterdam]

:lol:

Berto's chin is awful. Estrada by KO.

[PR Boxing Lore]

Berto has a good future, they have to take it easy with him, step by step.Lacy, we have to wait and see! Hello from Arecibo left hook!:D

[lefthook31]

Berto has a good future, they have to take it easy with him, step by step.Lacy, we have to wait and see! Hello from Arecibo left hook!:D
Ha Im not actually living PR but I go there a lot! I love it down there. Anyway, as some said Lacy was a top three fighter, but he still wasnt experienced enough facing the proper fighters to prepare him for someone like Calzahage. Calzahge outclassed him in every way. How many times do we see a ranked fighter but into a fight that he doesnt belong in. Kermit Cintron quickly comes to mind, but I dont think the beating he took was anything close the beating and mental damage Lacy took against Joe.

[DanePugilist]

Lacy was a top 3 super middle in the world...he just lost to a better fighter, simple as that.No, its not as simple as that. He lost big. And did so, because he was too green vs elites. He met the best too soon. He may have never been able to best JC, but embarressing himself, would not be the option had he waited.

Luckily Lacy seems strong of mind, and I believe he will recover from the big loss over time.

[Grabonator]

I'm gonna wait until I see Lacy fight with a 100% healed shoulder before I judge him ruined or not.

:good

[Illmatic]

No, its not as simple as that. He lost big. And did so, because he was too green vs elites. He met the best too soon. He may have never been able to best JC, but embarressing himself, would not be the option had he waited.

Luckily Lacy seems strong of mind, and I believe he will recover from the big loss over time.

Who else could he have fought to prepare him? He destroyed Reid, who gave Calzaghe a tough time, he fought contenders like Sheika, Pemberton, and wanted (like all fighters with great heart do) to fight the best.

He was prepared as he was ever going to be for Calzaghe.

[lefthook31]

Who else could he have fought to prepare him? He destroyed Reid, who gave Calzaghe a tough time, he fought contenders like Sheika, Pemberton, and wanted (like all fighters with great heart do) to fight the best.

He was prepared as he was ever going to be for Calzaghe.

I wouldnt say Pemberton and Sheika would prepare him for Calzahge. Joe is a pretty slick fighter, with a lot of experience. Sheika and Pemberton are right in front of you all night.

[Illmatic]

I wouldnt say Pemberton and Sheika would prepare him for Calzahge. Joe is a pretty slick fighter, with a lot of experience. Sheika and Pemberton are right in front of you all night.

alright, who should he have fought then?

[lefthook31]

alright, who should he have fought then?

Well when you manage a fighter, you want to bring him a long giving him looks at all styles. First guys they can outclass and then guys that have durable chins, and then guys that give you looks at different styles, while not being too tough that they beat you. I know thats easier said then done, but to me, Lacy never faced a guy who could move, box and punch similar to Calzahges style. It was evident the way he was completely outclassed by Calzahge, and completely looked lost in the fight.
To be honest, I would have to go through the fighters to pick them out because Im not too familiar with super middles, but I know this for sure, his manager is notorious for getting name fighters they can beat and then throwing them in fights they're not ready for. Just like Panchito Bojado, Shaw rushed Lacy into fights that suited his agenda better than Lacy's.

[Lampley]

While I think Lacy wasn't properly prepared mentally to face JC, I agree with Illmatic that it was going to be impossible to hold him off any longer. There was no other meaningful out there for him except Kessler, and that fight couldn't be made at the time.

In retrospect, I think had Lacy lost to Kessler in November when JC pulled out due to the injury, it would have been much better for Jeff. It's highly unlikely he'd have taken the same level of beating, and then he could have licked his wounds and worked his way back up.

As it was, the outcome against Calzaghe was unavoidable. And for the record, I don't think Jeff ever would beat that version of Joe.

Still, though, I think he could have been more prepared mentally -- though I give all credit to Calzaghe for a great fight, the Lacy he fought was frozen and inferior to the previous incarnations of Lacy -- and his corner should have stopped the bout to preserve his career.

I suspect that he will never be close to the same pre-Calzaghe. Hope I'm wrong.

[Lampley]

As for Berto, I agree that he has some of the same flaws as Lacy and could be in trouble against a mover. On the other hand, perhaps his chin isn't as good and he'll simply get KOd, rather than absorb a prolonged beating.

I'm more worried about Paul Williams, who gets caught cleanly and seems to be one of those guys with a good chin who doesn't mind getting hit. That could be trouble against the wrong opponent, especially because the Punisher fights with so much heart.

[lefthook31]

As for Berto, I agree that he has some of the same flaws as Lacy and could be in trouble against a mover. On the other hand, perhaps his chin isn't as good and he'll simply get KOd, rather than absorb a prolonged beating.

I'm more worried about Paul Williams, who gets caught cleanly and seems to be one of those guys with a good chin who doesn't mind getting hit. That could be trouble against the wrong opponent, especially because the Punisher fights with so much heart.

Good post. Williams most likely will be our next Diego Corrales.

[digiram]

Lacy was a top 3 super middle in the world...he just lost to a better fighter, simple as that.

Showed true heart in that fight. I felt bad as he was getting pounding.

His mistake was that, he was overwhelmed by the crowd and was looking for 1 punch.

[Illmatic]

Well when you manage a fighter, you want to bring him a long giving him looks at all styles. First guys they can outclass and then guys that have durable chins, and then guys that give you looks at different styles, while not being too tough that they beat you. I know thats easier said then done, but to me, Lacy never faced a guy who could move, box and punch similar to Calzahges style. It was evident the way he was completely outclassed by Calzahge, and completely looked lost in the fight.
To be honest, I would have to go through the fighters to pick them out because Im not too familiar with super middles, but I know this for sure, his manager is notorious for getting name fighters they can beat and then throwing them in fights they're not ready for. Just like Panchito Bojado, Shaw rushed Lacy into fights that suited his agenda better than Lacy's.

There;s no one that couldve suited him for Calzaghe;s style. No one fights like him

[Pimp C]

IMO Berto is a lot more skilled than Lacy.

[lefthook31]

The only reason people are comparing the two together (Berto&Lacy) is probably because they look a lot alike and have similar physique.

:yep

Not really, more so that Berto has shown me is a good offensive fighter that has some holes in his game just like Lacy did. Hes now being moved into the upper part of the division where guys are going to be able to expose some of those holes. Look what happened to Edison Miranda. Sometimes these bangers look like dynamos blowing guys out, but when they get in their with a solid technician, they get taken apart.
I dont think Calzahge is some dynamo that cant be matched. I think a guy like Hopkins, Pavlik, Wright, would have done the same thing to Lacy, which was nullify his lefthook and take him to pieces.

[lefthook31]

Doesn't Berto have braces? :lol:
:lol: why is that funny?

[Odo]

Rushing a fighter before they are fully developed is a big no no. Gary Shaw and Lou Dibella being the greedy guys they are, seem to be the kings of it. Berto is showing a lot of promise, but also some of the same flaws Lacy showed leading up to the Calzahge fight. In my opinions Lacy is a ruined fighter.


There are some similarities between Lacy and Berto.Both used to be quite mediocre amateur fighters who couldnt hold a candle to the better cubans and the fighters from the countries of the former soviet union.Both boxers have been hyped by the american media,and both have been able to look quite impressive against average American journeymen and other mediocre opposition.
Lacy was totally schooled and taken out of the fight by Gaidar Gaidarbekov,and got a lesson by Joe Calzaghe as well as a gift decision against Vitaly Tsypko.
As soon as Berto faces top notch international opposition he will be exposed as was Lacy against Calzaghe.

[WhataRock]

Im also of the belief that Berto is following a similiar path to Lacy, because he is quite similiar.

I dont think however Berto will be put in the same position because Lacy looked crap in fights before his title reign but never was in danger of loosing a fight, which you could argue Berto has been.
So I think they know what kind of fighter they have but now they are much more aware of his weak points and will probably be more careful with him.

Plus Welter is in a transition phase at the moment, lots of new blood, lots of elite fighters hanging there. Berto will not be on anyones radar for some time, so there is a chance to develop him a little more carefully.

Joe was kind of on his own for a while there and most thought he was getting to end of his reign. Few expected him to do what he did to Lacy.
I think most people know chucking Berto in against the very best at welter would be suicide, whereas Lacy taking on Joe looked like such a promising opportunity beforehand.

[Lampley]

There are some similarities between Lacy and Berto.Both used to be quite mediocre amateur fighters who couldnt hold a candle to the better cubans and the fighters from the countries of the former soviet union.Both boxers have been hyped by the american media,and both have been able to look quite impressive against average American journeymen and other mediocre opposition.
Lacy was totally schooled and taken out of the fight by Gaidar Gaidarbekov,and got a lesson by Joe Calzaghe as well as a gift decision against Vitaly Tsypko.
As soon as Berto faces top notch international opposition he will be exposed as was Lacy against Calzaghe.

You seem to be bitter about Lacy for some reason. He deserves more credit than that. He beat a host of solid contenders, even if most of them were aging, and he never ducked anyone. And while you love to blame the American media for Lacy's overhype, even some European posters here predicted Jeff to beat Cal, or at least called it a 50/50 fight.

And Lacy fought evenly -- I agree the decision could have gone the other way -- against Tsypko after suffering a serious injury early in the fight. He had dominated to that point.

[Lampley]

The differences I perceive between the two are that Berto has faster hands PfP than Jeff, and thus his combinations are a bit more explosive. And though he's muscular, he's not completely bulked up like Jeff is.

On the other hand, I'm not sure Berto has Lacy's chin.

[China_hand_Joe]

I consider Lacy to be leagues above Berto.

Handspeed is the only edge Berto has - although explosive his combinations have no real fluidity.

Lacy actually has better defense and better overall skill, despite being slightly slower.


Jeff is a former titlist who lasted 12 rounds with Joe Calzaghe, Berto would struggle to manage that even.

[Lampley]

I consider Lacy to be leagues above Berto.

Handspeed is the only edge Berto has - although explosive his combinations have no real fluidity.

Lacy actually has better defense and better overall skill, despite being slightly slower.


Jeff is a former titlist who lasted 12 rounds with Joe Calzaghe, Berto would struggle to manage that even.

Perhaps, but we also have to remember that Lacy matured quickly, while Berto seems to be making more gradual progress. He can improve his skills to an extent, although I don't think he has the legs to ever deal with good, consistent movers.

And going 12 full rounds with Calzaghe was the worst thing that could have happened to Jeff. Eight or nine was more than enough for the fight to be called.

[China_hand_Joe]

Surely Jeff can retire a proud man now, having managed to survive 12 rounds against an on form Joe Calzaghe? It is a great achievment, maybe on par with being a 3 weight world champion or something like that.


Just imagine, he'll be able to tell his grandchildren he shared a boxing ring with Joe Calzaghe.

[Lampley]

Surely Jeff can retire a proud man now, having managed to survive 12 rounds against an on form Joe Calzaghe? It is a great achievment, maybe on par with being a 3 weight world champion or something like that.

Ha ha.

Out of curiously, CHJ, and with genuine affection, what will you do if Calzaghe happens to lose to Kessler? I mean, I know you'll say now that it isn't possible, but what if lightning strikes or your guy simply gets old?

Is there a young fighter out there you like? Will you change your moniker to "Glass Jaw Khan"?

[China_hand_Joe]

Ha ha.

Out of curiously, CHJ, and with genuine affection, what will you do if Calzaghe happens to lose to Kessler? I mean, I know you'll say now that it isn't possible, but what if lightning strikes or your guy simply gets old?

Is there a young fighter out there you like? Will you change your moniker to "Glass Jaw Khan"?

I am genuinely having trouble picking a winner. Calzaghe may have aged, you can't tell when he's fighting Manfredo though. If he hasn't he can beat Kessler in a boring fight by out boxing him or just overwhelm him with volume.

The sign that Calzaghe has aged would be slow reflexes resulting in Kessler's predictable right hand hitting home frequently.



Khan't_win_gold...but I give Khan zero chance of ever becoming a true P4P fighter.

[Lampley]

I am genuinely having trouble picking a winner. Calzaghe may have aged, you can't tell when he's fighting Manfredo though. If he hasn't he can beat Kessler in a boring fight by out boxing him or just overwhelm him with volume.

The sign that Calzaghe has aged would be slow reflexes resulting in Kessler's predictable right hand hitting home frequently.



Khan't_win_gold...but I give Khan zero chance of ever becoming a true P4P fighter.

Interesting. I'd favor prime Calzaghe at least moderately over today's Kessler, but we don't know what state Joe truly is in. It's the fight that excites me most this fall.

I was just kidding on Khan. I have no opinion, but the outright hatred of him by most Brits on this board (while most others don't seem to care) is a hoot. The series of posts immediately after he got KDd were classic.

[China_hand_Joe]

I'd be very confident if Calzaghe was younger.

I'd give prime Calzaghe a 30% chance of KOing Kessler and a 71% chance of winning a UD.

[Lampley]

I'd be very confident if Calzaghe was younger.

I'd give prime Calzaghe a 30% chance of KOing Kessler and a 71% chance of winning a UD.

OK, that sounds more like you. I was worried there for a sec.

[China_hand_Joe]

We have to be realistic though.

Kessler is the closest thing to a real life Ivan Drago ever seen (the prime version that killed Creed).

35 year olds just aren't meant to beat young, undefeated, unified champions. How often does that actually happen?

I don't give Mosley much hope against Cotto for similar reasons. But Calzaghe is leagues above Mosley, the only reason we give him hope against Kessler, despite being past prime.

It would be an unrivaled accomplisment in boxing perhaps. Calzaghe needs to win more round than Kessler has lost his entire career in this fight.

[Lampley]

We have to be realistic though.

Kessler is the closest thing to a real life Ivan Drago ever seen (the prime version that killed Creed).

35 year olds just aren't meant to beat young, undefeated, unified champions. How often does that actually happen?

I don't give Mosley much hope against Cotto for similar reasons. But Calzaghe is leagues above Mosley, the only reason we give him hope against Kessler, despite being past prime.

It would be an unrivaled accomplisment in boxing perhaps. Calzaghe needs to win more round than Kessler has lost his entire career in this fight.

I think you're being a bit dramatic here, but I somewhat agree with your post. Most recently, Hopkins did dominate prime Trinidad, and a worn Morales did outfight Pacquaio in their first encounter. (I realize Morales wasn't that old, but he had shown wear and tear already after so many wars.)

Nothing we've seen so far from Calzaghe suggests a significant drop, although we agree that he hasn't been tested in a long time. I'm still predicting him to win, but in a close fight.

[Lampley]

Calzaghe has looked sloppier in his twenties than he did against Bika - who by all knowledge has a tough, tough chin and a severely awkward style to negotiate against.

I don't think his performance has dropped, he's always in great shape and he's never had an issue going 12 - unlike many other fighters (Kessler included)

Would you consider Bika a World Class test? I wouldn't. Calzaghe essentially cruised to a decision after a hardfought first few rounds. Yes, that's because he's skilled enough to do it, but you'll be in the minority if you say Bika represents a greater threat than Kessler.

My position is that Calzaghe's No. 1 question mark is age, while Kessler's is whether he truly is a Great, or just a Very Good. He doesn't have the resume for us to know for sure, no matter how much of a push he gets from the home folks.

[Lampley]

I definitely don't consider Bika a world class opponent - I do think he's probably Top 15 in the current SMW division and would give some of the guys above him absolute fits.

I was very impressed with Bute in how he was able to deal with Bika.. I smelt the chance of an upset.

Kessler represents a greater threat than Bika, solely because he's more experienced, has beaten better opponents and has a definite advantage in talent to Bika.

BUT - I'm still anticipating that Bika gave Calzaghe a tougher looking fight than Kessler is going to be able to do.

To go to the age issue for just a second - I don't think it's going to be a factor, I'd be entirely worried if Calzaghe was facing a fast punching, combination thrower because I don't think his evasion skills are quite where they used to be and he could get caught

But Kessler isn't that guy - Kessler is the robotic machine that resets himself time and time again to work the double jab, then the right, then shift, then double jab, then the right - with very little variaton.

That's not going to trouble Mr Calzaghe in my view.

OK. When you don't state your opinions with unerring certainty, I usually agree with respect to this fight. I agree about Bika. He's a very solid gatekeeper, and I mean that as a compliment.

Your analysis of Kessler the Conventionalist is on point, but the one place you consistently shortchange him is his superb timing. Calzaghe can beat him with speed and angles, but he'll have to work very hard to fight an off-cadence fight.

My prediction right now is that JC gets caught with right hands through the first half of the fight, dropping some rounds in the process, but Joe adjusts by dropping his workrate a little and winning with economy and crispness.

Kessler's timing will make this a difficult fight for Joe, and if Calzaghe's reflexes and/or stamina have dipped from his 2006 level, he very well may lose.

[DanePugilist]

There;s no one that couldve suited him for Calzaghe;s style. No one fights like himCorrect, but going straight to the top in his 22nd match is not playing your hand too well. Many other fighters could have prepared him for adversity. Mundine would have been great, due to his speed.

As I see it all of Lacys opponents had all been vulnerable to Lacys style and power; slow movers - easy to hit. When he faced a guy that could neutralize his style - he didn't know what to do, and was reduced to a punching bag.