Manny Pacquiao and Roy Jones

[the cobra]

Why again should Jones be rated higher?

Pacquiao's got TKO11 Barrera, KO2 Hatton, TKO10 Morales, TKO3 Morales, TKO8 De La Hoya, W12 Marquez, W12 Barrera, TKO6 Ledwaba, KO8 Sasakul, TKO9 Diaz, etc.

champion at 112lbs (linear), 122lbs (IBF), 126lbs (linear), 130lbs (linear), 135lbs (WBC), and 140lbs (linear).


Jones has W12 Toney, W12 Hopkins, W12 Ruiz, KO4 Hill, KO1 Griffin, W12 Tarver, KO6 Malinga, W12 McCallum, W12 Johnson, TKO6 Woods, etc.

champion at 160lbs (IBF), 168lbs (IBF), 175lbs (WBC/WBA/IBF), and Heavy (WBA).

And did Roy ever look that much better than Pacquiao has in his last 3 fights? Are Manny's 2 early losses and loss to Morales any worse than Roy's losses to Tarver, Johnson, and Calzaghe?

Am I just overrating Pac because of what just happened, or should he be viewed as great a fighter as Roy Jones?

[Russell]

P4P, Pacquiao no doubt.

He also didn't piss away any portion of his career like Jones seemed to love.

[Rebel-INS]

Well I'm not a huge Roy Jones fan, although I do think he was an exceptional talent.
His CV isn't great though, and he never fought the best.
You can't really rate Manny yet though, as he's still fighting. I know Roy is also, but he's finished.

[Gesta]

I think Manny will be a higher rated atg than Jones.

[RJJ4Life]

Roy Jones Jr. never got knocked out twice early in his career. he got knocked out at the end of his career -when he was a shell of himself.

Manny has the chance to overcome Roy's achievement's. He shows the kind of amazing abilities Rj once possessed. However, give him some time. How long has Manny been pound 4 pound king? Roy held that distinction for 10 years. Roy made good fighters look like nothing. Fought bigger guys his entire career. Went up to heavyweight and whopped ass, went back down and showed the heart of a champion to reclaim the lhw title.

[Russell]

Roy Jones Jr. never got knocked out twice early in his career. he got knocked out at the end of his career -when he was a shell of himself.

Manny has the chance to overcome Roy's achievement's. He shows the kind of amazing abilities Rj once possessed. However, give him some time. How long has Manny been pound 4 pound king? Roy held that distinction for 10 years. Roy made good fighters look like nothing. Fought bigger guys his entire career. Went up to heavyweight and whopped ass, went back down and showed the heart of a champion to reclaim the lhw title.

Manny was FAR more weight drained then Jones when he lost the second time around. It was more then likely a dive as well. He wanted out of hostile territory especially in his state.

Not a coindence for his next fight he was 10 pounds heavier and never moved back down. Do you have any idea how much weight that is for a man his size?

[My2Sense]

Roy Jones Jr. never got knocked out twice early in his career. he got knocked out at the end of his career -when he was a shell of himself.

He wasn't a "shell of himself" either fight he was KO'd, he was still good enough to have produced one of his career best performances against Ruiz only the previous year.

Pac was much farther removed from his best at the time he was KO'd than Roy was from his.

Roy made good fighters look like nothing.

So has Pacquiao.

Fought bigger guys his entire career.

No he didn't.

[sweet_scientist]

Manny is accumulating a better resume, but he is not a more talented fighter than Roy Jones imo. Roy would never arguably lose to the likes of Marquez and Morales in his prime. He would make them look average, I'm pretty sure.

[the cobra]

Originally posted by Sweet_Scientist
Manny is accumulating a better resume, but he is not a more talented fighter than Roy Jones imo. Roy would never arguably lose to the likes of Marquez and Morales in his prime. He would make them look average, I'm pretty sure
I think Pac has improved significantly since the first Morales fight, and that Marquez has an excellent style to deal with him. I don't think Manny has consistently put on enough dominant/amazing performances to be put quite on the talent level of Jones, but his recent form isn't far from it, and his career as a whole looks more impressive to me.

Do you agree that he should be rated at least near Jones?

[sweet_scientist]

I think Pac has improved significantly since the first Morales fight, and that Marquez has an excellent style to deal with him. I don't think Manny has consistently put on enough dominant/amazing performances to be put quite on the talent level of Jones, but his recent form isn't far from it, and his career as a whole looks more impressive to me.

Do you agree that he should be rated at least near Jones?

His accomplishments draw him near to Jones regardless, but I think as far as ability goes, Jones still has him covered. I'm not convinced off the DLH and Hatton performances that Pac should shoot right into the stratosphere. He looked excellent yes, but he received NO resistance from his opponents, and both looked dead-awful against him.

[Russell]

There's a difference between pure athletic ability/impressivness and actually consistently testing it, daring to be great against world class and elite opposition.

Jones didn't do this for years on end at LHW.

[sweet_scientist]

On the issue of Pac's improvement it's hard to say. I don't think he looked any better against Marquez the second time round than he did the first. I actually had Pac beating Marquez the first time round, had the second fight a draw.

Marquez might just be a guy perfectly suited to deal with Pac as you say, but I haven't seen much resistance from many other Pac opponents of late to conclusively say that that just goes down as a style issue.

[sweet_scientist]

There's a difference between pure athletic ability/impressivness and actually consistently testing it, daring to be great against world class and elite opposition.

Jones didn't do this for years on end at LHW.

Maybe, but I tell you what, I think the Virgil Hill that Jones Ko'ed is a better fighter than the Ricky Hatton ko'ed tonight.

[the cobra]

Originally posted by Sweet_Scientist
His accomplishments draw him near to Jones regardless, but I think as far as ability goes, Jones still has him covered. I'm not convinced off the DLH and Hatton performances that Pac should shoot right into the stratosphere. He looked excellent yes, but he received NO resistance from his opponents, and both looked dead-awful against him.
I agree that Jones should still rate higher for all-around ability, but don't you think this last bit can be put on most of Roy's opponents?

[sweet_scientist]

Maybe, but I tell you what, I think the Virgil Hill that Jones Ko'ed is a better fighter than the Ricky Hatton ko'ed tonight.


It's hilarious to say so, but maybe even John Ruiz showed more against Jones than Hatton did against Pac.

[sweet_scientist]

I agree that Jones should still rate higher for all-around ability, but don't you think this last bit can be put on most of Roy's opponents?

Sure that's true. Jones fought a lot of unarmed civilians. But still, if you look at guys like Toney and Hopkins, even though guys make a lot of excuses for them (e.g. green, weight drained etc.) they still looked excellent against Jones and Jones still soared above them. Guys like Morales and Barrera looked like they had seen better days against Pac and DLH and Hatton simply weren't in the fights. With Hatton that might have more to do with incompetence than anything else though.

I know I sound like I'm taking all credit away from Pac, but I will say that I do think him a great fighter. I'm just being a bit conservative with him.

[My2Sense]

Roy would never arguably lose to the likes of Marquez and Morales in his prime.

I don't know why you'd say that, it's not like Roy never lost or had a tough fight even in his prime.


Besides, how much can you rate a guy based on what you think he "would" or "wouldn't" do rather than what he actually did?

Roy had some big wins and big achievements, but he also had big shortcomings, big questions marks, and ultimately big failures - all of which have to be considered when doing a full assessment of him.

[the cobra]

Originally posted by Sweet_Scientist
Sure that's true. Jones fought a lot of unarmed civilians. But still, if you look at guys like Toney and Hopkins, even though guys make a lot of excuses for them (e.g. green, weight drained etc.) they still looked excellent against Jones and Jones still soared above them. Guys like Morales and Barrera looked like they had seen better days against Pac and DLH and Hatton simply weren't in the fights. With Hatton that might have more to do with incompetence than anything else though.

I know I sound like I'm taking all credit away from Pac, but I will say that I do think him a great fighter. I'm just being a bit conservative with him.
That's a good idea. It's just so hard to do because he kicks so much ass.

[sweet_scientist]

I don't know why you'd say that, it's not like Roy never lost or had a tough fight even in his prime.

What were the tough fights in his prime? Losing three rounds to Montell Griffin before being on the verge of knocking him out and being silly enough to finish the job whilst Montell was on the ground?

The 3 or 4 rounds he lost in a listless display against old Mike McCallum?

Roy pretty much coasted past everyone in his prime. I don't see what someone like Morales or Juan Manuel Marquez would do to outbox him.


Besides, how much can you rate a guy based on what you think he "would" or "wouldn't" do rather than what he actually did?

Roy had some big wins and big achievements, but he also had big shortcomings, big questions marks, and ultimately big failures - all of which have to be considered when doing a full assessment of him.You can rate a fight quite a lot on what you think his level of ability is. I don't see the evidence for thinking Morales or Marquez level fighters beat a prime version of him. I don't think either are much better than the Toney or Hopkins that Roy toyed with.