David Tua vs Rocky Marciano

[KTFO]

Tua vs Marciano in their primes. Who wins and why?

[McGrain]

Lots of guys seem to want to match up Tua with ATG's all the time and seems odd to me as Tua never really seemed to achieve that much. But this is an interesting one. Tua may be the right idea for Rocky. He's really strong and he can really bang.

What this would mean in the normal course of events as that a swarmer/banger might want to readjust just a tiny bit. But we know that this is impossible for Rocky. He's going to do pretty much what he always does, no?

Tua has a very good chance here. But I think I'm going to go with Marciano. Tua looked a bit reluctant v Lewis to me in the later stages, like he didn't want to get hit any more (though he has the chin for it as we know). I see something similair here. If Tua connects early then Rocky may have to drag himself up and look out but I think he would manage and then drive Tua into a quasi shell in the 8th/9th with workrate and power to take a clear but hard earned decision.

[fists of fury]

Tua wasn't half the fighter Marciano was, but goddamn I find it hard for Marciano to win this one, unless he outworks Tua.

Tua stands a chance against all sluggers because of his punch and chin. A shitty state of affairs when you think about it, but that's boxing. :twisted:

[Bummy Davis]

Marciano by TKO around 10

[Senya13]

Tua by KO inside 2 rounds. Marciano has no chance whatsoever.

[McGrain]

Tua by KO inside 2 rounds. Marciano has no chance whatsoever.


How accurate is Tua? And do you consider Rocky pretty easy to hit?

[Senya13]

Small coming-forward slugger with average defense = Tua wins by KO.

[Luigi1985]

Small coming-forward slugger with average defense = Tua wins by KO.



That´s exactly the description of David Tua, the man who was at his best just a contender...

[McGrain]

Small coming-forward slugger with average defense = Tua wins by KO.


I think it's not an unreasonable pick, but I think the envisioned two round destruction is a little strange...factoring in what is going to be coming back at him you have to ask if it's a war that Tua can win at all. I haven't seen every Rocky fight, but i've never ever seen him look like he doesn't like being hit - he's still fighting regardless.

[Marnoff]

15 Round fight? Marciano stops him late. They both have good chins, so it's not unreasonable that it goes to late rounds. However, Rocky's punch carried with him into the late rounds because he was so tremendously fit. He stops Tua late.

[KTFO]

Tua by KO inside 2 rounds. Marciano has no chance whatsoever.



Best post of all. And the most realistic outcome. :good

[McGrain]

Best post of all. And the most realistic outcome. :good

I think a two round stoppage is one of the least likely outcomes although I think it's more likely that Rocky gets stopped than stops Tua (certainly over 12).

Maybe you should throw up a poll?

[Senya13]

Tua has a chin that was tested against big hard-hitting super heavyweights. Marciano's chin has not been tested that way, and he was dropped twice by fighters with a lot lesser punching power than Tua's. Marciano gets hit plenty, in every single fight of some duration. Nobody won a fight with Tua by trying to slug it out with him. People who tried this style always ended up on the canvas, counted out or referee stopping to save them.

[FlatNose]

.At his best, Daves weight was in the 220's and Marciano had handled guys that big before.Marciano could go fifteen fast paced rounds, and although Tua never did that, Dave did go 12 hard fought rounds with Ike , so we will give Tua the benifet of the doubt here, and a long drawn out brawl is the most likely scenerio.Tua was no Fred Astaire, thus the fight would be on the inside, Marciano's turf.Of course Tua is no slouch infighting, and with both guys chins as solid as they were, both would absorb huge shots all night.The difference would ultimately be Marciano's tactic of weaving low and coming up slugging away with hooks, uppercuts, and that big overhand right of his.Marciano would get cut, maybe even floored, but Rocky never got discouraged.Down the stretch the all time great workhorse would out work the best workhorse of recent times, and a bloodied Rocky Marciano would win a close but unanimous decision over David Tua.

[Senya13]

.At his best, Daves weight was in the 220's and Marciano had handled guys that big before.
He only handled two tomato cans with that weight (I'm not even counting Jerry Humphrey Jackson as a boxer). Shkor and Big Bill Wilson (the latter stopped on cuts in the very first round, in no time at all to test Marciano's chin).

The difference would ultimately be Marciano's tactic of weaving low and coming up slugging away with hooks, uppercuts, and that big overhand right of his.
Tua's defense was at least as good as Marciano, although neither was a master of defense. Basically both will be landing just as often, with the difference being Tua had quite possibly the hardest left hook in history of boxing, much harder than Marciano's best punch. Plus right hook to the body which made many people writhe in pain after they tasted it. Tua was a KO artist. Marciano wore people down with tens or hundreds of punches. Rocky will fall first. No other way is possible in this matchup.

[AREA 53]

I think this is a Bad matchup for Rocky, a Better Fighter, but giving away 40plus pounds, and Coming streight into Tua is a recepie for Disaster, yet Rocky can do little else, he can not start dancing and flicking a Jab, No Rocky would do what Rocky Does, and Tua would not have to expand any energy looking for Rocky, he just Opens up when Rocky gets to him, Tua is a murderous puncher if you trade wiuth him up close....But as stated, give him a 40lbplus weight advantage as well
and the cards are heavily stacked against Rocky, who man of appeared Superhuman, but was indeed Mortal, Rocky often had to employ his Fitness Strenght and determination over several rounds to pummel his opponent, asa in the case of Fat Don Cockell, I think agaoinst Tua he does not get the Chance, Tua Bigger not Better, wins and i woiuld expect it to be quick, perhaps to many Rocky Fans, shockingly so,

[Bill1234]

much harder than Marciano's best punch.


Marciano's Suzie Q left tons of people on the canvas unconcious. Look at what he did to Walcott and Layne. Marciano damn near killed Carmine Vingo with one punch. Vingo was in a coma for 2 days teetering between life and death. In the end he lived, but he never fought again. People who have sparred both Louis and Marciano said that Marciano could hurt you more with 1 punch than Louis could with 4.

[Senya13]

Layne had no chin. Vingo was a tomato can.

[janitor]

Best post of all. And the most realistic outcome. :good

And no analysis whatsoever. Best dose not mean closest to your opinion.

[janitor]

Layne had no chin.

Utter nonsense. Laynes chin was granite.

[janitor]

.At his best, Daves weight was in the 220's

Even at 220 Tua was carrying excess bagage. In peak condition he would have been under 210.

[mr. magoo]

This is kind of a funny matchup given that the only way for either of these fighters to win is by knockout, yet neither man was ever Ko'd in his career. In addition, both men fought similar styles, yet never faced anyone who fought like themselves. I don't see these guys slugging for 12 or 15 straight rounds without one of them being stopped in one way or another. There is simply too much power being traded back and forth for a decision to be possible. In the unlikely event that such a match did go the distance, it would probably result in both men having to donate their remains to science. If I were forced to pick, I'd probably have to go with Tua. He had about 40 Lbs on Marciano and although both guys had great chins, Tua's was tested more thoroughly against guys Like Lennox Lewis and a few others. Marciano could certainly take a walloping, but he was cut, rocked and floored multiple times to lesser punchers leaving me with the indication that Tua's power and chin would ultimately be a deciding factor. Sure, we can sit here and talk about who had more heart, more handspeed, whatever. But in the end, however, it comes down to two big vehicles coliding at full speed, and only one surivivor making it out alive.

Tua by knockout ( not sure what round. )

[janitor]

Swarmer on swarmer match ups tend to be a bit random as to the outcome. It is a scenario where a lesser fighter will often pull an upset. For this reason a Tua win cannot be considered unlikley.

If I had to put money down however I would go with the more polished and consistent Marciano.

[KTFO]

Tua would dismantle Marciano either by KO or TKO.
Tua has a weight advantage of 40lbs, an awesome chin and tremendous power.
Marciano is a come forward slugger who wouldn’t try to outbox Tua.
Tua would land enough hooks and uppercuts to KO or cut Marciano.
Even if Marciano would survive the first rounds those cuts would end the bout.

There’s no way to KO Tua, certainly not by Marciano.

[mr. magoo]

There’s no way to KO Tua, certainly not by Marciano.
[/QUOTE]

I also picked Tua to take this one, but think about what you're saying, when you say the words " there is no way to KO Tua. " Marciano was never Ko'd either, and in fact went 15 rounds, which is something that Tua never did nor ever will. You also added the words " certainly not by Marciano ", implying that Rocky would have even less of a chance than the average Joe Blow.

Once again, I agree that Tua takes this one, but you may want to watch how you word some of this stuff, and look for more solid reasons in your debate.

[Senya13]

Utter nonsense. Laynes chin was granite.
How many times was this granite-chinned nonsence knocked down or stopped in his career?

[janitor]

[quote=KTFO]Tua would dismantle Marciano either by KO or TKO.
Tua has a weight advantage of 40lbs,


Unfortunately for him 20 lbs of that is flab.

[Senya13]

Ibeabuchi had a completely different style from Marciano, and was much bigger and stronger phisically. There is no comparison between the two.

[Senya13]

Only because Marciano fought in a VERY POOR heavyweight division.

[janitor]

How many times was this granite-chinned nonsence knocked down or stopped in his career?

He was never knocked out before facing Marciano and his only knockdown that I know of came against Bob Satterfield (no shame there).

After his back to back losses to Marciano and Charles he was damaged goods. His record after this point shows that he was not the same fighter.

[mr. magoo]

Only because Marciano fought in a VERY POOR heavyweight division.

Ibeabucci indeed possesed more size and strength than Marciano, but he also only had 16 pro fights and managed to beat Tua who was 27-0. Now what does that say about David Tua?

[janitor]

Only because Marciano fought in a VERY POOR heavyweight division.

Really?

I would say his oposition is god like compared to the best fighters Tua beat.

[Senya13]

He was never knocked out before facing Marciano and his only knockdown that I know of came against Bob Satterfield (no shame there).

After his back to back losses to Marciano and Charles he was damaged goods. His record after this point shows that he was not the same fighter.
So he only had half of the fights on his record, the rest was completely another fighter? How convenient. And Ezzard Charles wasn't really Ezzard Charles early in his career and late in his career, he was only Ezzard Charles in the middle, several years? If the guy has a chin, he doesn't lose it after a couple of stoppage loses at the age of 23. Layne had no chin from the very beginning.

[Senya13]

Ibeabucci indeed possesed more size and strength than Marciano, but he also only had 16 pro fights and managed to beat Tua who was 27-0. Now what does that say about David Tua?
That tells us that nobody is safe from getting robbed of a well-deserved decision. Absolute majority of people that I've seen or read, who scored that fight, had it for Tua.

[Senya13]

Poor heavyweight division?

Joe Louis - ATG
Walcott - HOFer
Charles - ATG
Moore - ATG
Joe Louis - 37 years old, about 10-years past his prime and 10 pounds above his best weight.
Walcott - a journeyman who used the possibility (very weak division) to climb up to the top for a short time. When he was 37 years old and fought Marciano when 38 and 39 years old.
Charles - natural light heavyweight, about 6 years past his prime, and 3 years away from the time he held a title.
Moore - natural light heavyweight, officially 38 years old at the time of the fight, but possibly really around 40.

The time was at one of the lowest levels in the history of heavyweight division.

[Bill1234]

Joe Louis - 37 years old, about 10-years past his prime and 10 pounds above his best weight.
Walcott - a journeyman who used the possibility (very weak division) to climb up to the top for a short time. When he was 37 years old and fought Marciano when 38 and 39 years old.
Charles - natural light heavyweight, about 6 years past his prime, and 3 years away from the time he held a title.
Moore - natural light heavyweight, officially 38 years old at the time of the fight, but possibly really around 40.

The time was at one of the lowest levels in the history of heavyweight division.


Not as low as it is now. You rely on ages too much. How old was Moore when Clay beat him? A hell of a lot older than when Marciano beat him. Guys like Walcott and more got better with age. You'll see of you do the research, that Marciano ended a lot of people's careers.

[Bill1234]

For some reason, people always mention how much weight Tua has on Marciano. Tua weighed around 220-230, about 25lbs of it was flab. Not good. If he trained as hard as Marciano, then he would be around 190-200.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]


He has a gut, and fat is going over his knee's. Thus the reason why he weighed so much more then the 185-190lbs Marciano.


[Only registered and activated users can see links]


Not an ounce of fat on him, but has muscle too.

[Senya13]

Not as low as it is now.
We have several relatively young natural super heavyweights at the top. Back then it was a no-hope situation.

How old was Moore when Clay beat him?
Moore only took that fight for the money. It is very well known.

Guys like Walcott and more got better with age.
They started to look better as the situation around them started to become worse.

[janitor]

[quote=Senya13]So he only had half of the fights on his record, the rest was completely another fighter? How convenient.

No it was not a diferent fighter but a damaged version of the same fighter.

How else do you acount for the dramatic fall off in performence?

And Ezzard Charles wasn't really Ezzard Charles early in his career and late in his career, he was only Ezzard Charles in the middle, several years?

If we are judging him as a peak fighter then we judge him over that period.

If the guy has a chin, he doesn't lose it after a couple of stoppage loses at the age of 23.

There have been many cases of fighters loosing their durability due to ring wear or a bad beating. It is nothing mysterious.


Layne had no chin from the very beginning.


Preposterous.

The Satterfield fight alone should tell you he had a solid chin.

[Senya13]

You dislike the Rock for whatever reason.
I don't like when people overrate certain fighters too much, ignoring any common sense. Besides, you can look up some contemporary sources to read what the people were saying about that epoch, it was very poor.

You want to denigrate his opposition.
I point out to facts.

By the way, Walcott was a great boxer not a journeyman.
Walcott was a journeyman for most part of his career, then, as things got worse, his status elevated for a short time. He never reached a status of ATG.

Marciano would have beaten Louis anytime.
Watch more of prime Louis, watch his timing and footwork. Prime Louis would dissect Marciano and stop him by mid-rounds.

The fact is that Marciano was 49-0, 43 knockouts.
There are plenty of fighters nowaday who reach similar or even greater numbers undefeated. You have to look up not only numbers or ATG/HOF titles, but also consider at what point of their career the opponents were. For example, Harry Greb beat a ATG fighter in Jack Blackburn. Is this is significant achievement? Jack Johnson beat Jim Jeffries, how about this?

[Senya13]

For some reason, people always mention how much weight Tua has on Marciano. Tua weighed around 220-230, about 25lbs of it was flab. Not good. If he trained as hard as Marciano, then he would be around 190-200.
You've done a typo. You meant to write "If Tua cut off his arm, then he would be around 190-200". Because only complete morons think prime Tua could train down to 200 without killing himself from starvation/dehidration/exhaustion.

[mr. magoo]

Besides, you can look up some contemporary sources to read what the people were saying about that epoch, it was very poor.



I find it interesting how every time a debate comes up on a particular era, your first response is to make reference to the fact that experts at the time thought that particular era was poor.

Do you have any idea what people think of the current era Senya?

[janitor]

[quote=Senya13]Joe Louis - 37 years old, about 10-years past his prime and 10 pounds above his best weight.


Louis was undoubtedly way past his best but he was still only loosing to all time greats. Ezzard Charles and Rocky Marciano are both consensus top 20 all time heavyweight.

Talking about Louis being 10 lbs above his best weight is a bit cheeky if you are quoting Tuas weight advantage over Marciano as if he were a lean 220 lbs.


Walcott - a journeyman who used the possibility (very weak division) to climb up to the top for a short time. When he was 37 years old and fought Marciano when 38 and 39 years old.


Walcott made a clean sweep of the heavyweight division to earn a shot at Louis's title. To suggest he is a journeyman is preposterous.

The majority view is that he is a top 20 all time heavyweight.


Charles - natural light heavyweight, about 6 years past his prime, and 3 years away from the time he held a title.


But for all that still another consensus top 20 all time heavyweight.


Moore - natural light heavyweight, officially 38 years old at the time of the fight, but possibly really around 40.


This 38 year old light heavyweight had just cleaned out the heavyweight division.

Will you give Joe Calzaghe any credit if he beats Bernard Hopkins early next year?


The time was at one of the lowest levels in the history of heavyweight division.


So we have-

Two top 20 all time heavyweights in Walcott and Charles.

A faded verion of the greatest heavyweight of all time.

Two pound for pound greats in Charles and Moore.


That is not a weak era.

[janitor]

You've done a typo. You meant to write "If Tua cut off his arm, then he would be around 190-200". Because only complete morons think prime Tua could train down to 200 without killing himself from starvation/dehidration/exhaustion.

That would be closer to the truth than thinking that Tua is a 220-230 lb super heavyweight.

[Senya13]

No it was not a diferent fighter but a damaged version of the same fighter.
How else do you acount for the dramatic fall off in performence?
What dramatic fall? He was never a great fighter, he was an average heavyweight from the very beginning. And like I said, people don't lose chin at 23 years old if they had it in the beginning. The reflexes and skills are still there to roll with or somehow else minimize the impact of punches.


If we are judging him as a peak fighter then we judge him over that period.
He was fighting tomato cans as he was being brought up. Lost to one tomato can, drew with two other, before upsetting an old veteran journeyman Walcott. Beat an ever inconsistent light heavyweight Saterfield. You calling a win over two journeymen his peak? The thing is he wasn't trully tested prior to facing Marciano, and the hindsight knowledge revealed he was a poor fighter with not very solid chin.

There have been many cases of fighters loosing their durability due to ring wear or a bad beating. It is nothing mysterious.
At 23? Give me a few examples.

The Satterfield fight alone should tell you he had a solid chin.
Since when is a fight against light heavyweight journeyman, where a fighter had been floored, is a proof of solid heavyweight chin?

[Senya13]

That would be closer to the truth than thinking that Tua is a 220-230 lb super heavyweight.
1) Tua is from New Zealand aboriginal origins. If you had been there or happened to see them on TV, it's natural (inherited) thing for them to have somewhat more fat than is considered normal for US, Europe, etc.
2) Tua looked completely natural and had a good stamina at 220lb. Reduction of weight would only make it worse for him, reduce his punching power and durability, without giving any advantages (he's not a mover, not a swarmer, that's not his style).

[mr. magoo]

[quote=Senya13]1) Tua is from New Zealand aboriginal origins. If you had been there or happened to see them on TV, it's natural (inherited) thing for them to have somewhat more fat than is considered normal for US, Europe, etc.


Natural my ass. If it's a cultural thing that individuals from aboriginal origins tend to have different nutritional guidelines, then that might be one thing, but you're just flat out saying that it's an inherited trait for an entire group to be walking around with excess bagage. That's just a load of crap.

[janitor]

[quote=Senya13]What dramatic fall? He was never a great fighter, he was an average heavyweight from the very beginning.

A contender who splits series with two lineal champions cannot be called an average fighter by any stretch of the english language.

Many writers were hailing Layne as the next champion and he went into the fight with Marciano as the betting favourite.


And like I said, people don't lose chin at 23 years old if they had it in the beginning. The reflexes and skills are still there to roll with or somehow else minimize the impact of punches.


A fighter can get mashed up and broken down at any age. All it takes is a suficiently bad beating.

If Carmine Vingo had atempted a comeback after the Marciano fight do you imagine his chin would have still been as good as before?

He was fighting tomato cans as he was being brought up. Lost to one tomato can, drew with two other, before upsetting an old veteran journeyman Walcott.

You seem to have some trouble grasping the definition of tomatoe cans and journeymen.

That journeyman he upset was a consensus top 20 all time lineal heavyweight championat or close to the peak of his abilities.

The thing is he wasn't trully tested prior to facing Marciano,

This is hilarious.

You don't think that Walcott and Satterfield were among the toughest tests available in the heavyweight division at the time?

If they were journeymen of the period then who are the contenders he could have fought if he wanted a stifer test?

Since when is a fight against light heavyweight journeyman, where a fighter had been floored, is a proof of solid heavyweight chin?

Are you questioning Satterfields credentials as a puncher?

[janitor]

[quote=Senya13]1) Tua is from New Zealand aboriginal origins. If you had been there or happened to see them on TV, it's natural (inherited) thing for them to have somewhat more fat than is considered normal for US, Europe, etc.


So what?

No man who is training 14 hours a day would naturaly have that level of body fat. The only reason for that kind of conditioning is not training properly.

2) Tua looked completely natural and had a good stamina at 220lb. Reduction of weight would only make it worse for him, reduce his punching power and durability, without giving any advantages (he's not a mover, not a swarmer, that's not his style).

He had good natural stamina but he was not well conditioned. If he had come to Charlie Goldman in that condition he would have been told to get his act together.

[mr. magoo]

[quote]

A contender who splits series with two lineal champions cannot be called an average fighter by any stretch of the english language.

Many writers were hailing Layne as the next champion and he went into the fight with Marciano as the betting favourite.



A fighter can get mashed up and broken down at any age. All it takes is a suficiently bad beating.

If Carmine Vingo had atempted a comeback after the Marciano fight do you imagine his chin would have still been as good as before?



You seem to have some trouble grasping the definition of tomatoe cans and journeymen.

That journeyman he upset was a consensus top 20 all time lineal heavyweight championat or close to the peak of his abilities.



This is hilarious.

You don't think that Walcott and Satterfield were among the toughest tests available in the heavyweight division at the time?

If they were journeymen of the period then who are the contenders he could have fought if he wanted a stifer test?



Are you questioning Satterfields credentials as a puncher?

I applaud your efforts Janitor, but I'm afraid you're wasting your time. I've tried to explain the definitions of Tomato can and Journeyman to Senya before, and it was to no avail. He still believes that Quarry, Ellis, Shavers, Lyle, Bonavena and Mathis were journeyman.

[Senya13]

Louis was undoubtedly way past his best but he was still only loosing to all time greats.
The division was weak. The fact that he was looking bad against an old journeyman (Walcott) and then lost to natural light heavyweight who was also past his prime and old, shows it was no longer the same Louis. Watching Marciano's fight shows he was completely shot by this time, even though he was a top contender.

Talking about Louis being 10 lbs above his best weight is a bit cheeky if you are quoting Tuas weight advantage over Marciano as if he were a lean 220 lbs.
I'm talking about prime Tua, and about a clearly shot Louis. Best weight for Louis was about 200 or a couple of pounds heavier. But clearly not 213 pounds.

Walcott made a clean sweep of the heavyweight division to earn a shot at Louis's title. To suggest he is a journeyman is preposterous.
There can be different periods in fighter's career. Most of Walcott's career he was nothing more than a journeyman (definition of this word was discussed here some time ago).

The majority view is that he is a top 20 all time heavyweight.
Majority view of whom?

But for all that still another consensus top 20 all time heavyweight.
Charles' achievements at heavyweight are MEDIOCRE. He was a sure Top 5 light heavyweight (argueably #1), that's where he should be ranked. The approach how many fighters are often ranked is very flawed. Such as ranking Harry Greb at middleweight, despite his main achivements and his common weight being light heavyweight, Mickey Walker's ranking at middleweight, despite him being a welterweight and having a very weak 160lb resume outside of Tiger Flowers' robbery. Sam Langford ranking at heavyweight. Etc, etc. And consensus is a wrong word there, btw. Majority of well-known experts, perhaps, old men who can't stand modern or semi-modern times, it comes as no surprise. You should be aware though of how much critics many placements on their rankings get though.

This 38 year old light heavyweight had just cleaned out the heavyweight division.
Archie Moore cleaned out the heavyweight division?!? Hold your horses!

Will you give Joe Calzaghe any credit if he beats Bernard Hopkins early next year?
What weight?

[Senya13]

Natural my ass. If it's a cultural thing that individuals from aboriginal origins tend to have different nutritional guidelines, then that might be one thing, but you're just flat out saying that it's an inherited trait for an entire group to be walking around with excess bagage.
It's not a cultural thing. If you look around yourself, you might notice people, who eat a lot, but don't get fat, while some get fat quick despite all diets and regime. Predisposition on genetic level.

[janitor]

[quote=Senya13]The division was weak. The fact that he was looking bad against an old journeyman (Walcott) and then lost to natural light heavyweight who was also past his prime and old, shows it was no longer the same Louis. Watching Marciano's fight shows he was completely shot by this time, even though he was a top contender.


I don't doubt that Louis was way past his best but he was still only loosing to the best out there. Louis only ever lost to other lineal heavyweight champions even late in his career.


I'm talking about prime Tua, and about a clearly shot Louis. Best weight for Louis was about 200 or a couple of pounds heavier. But clearly not 213 pounds.


I suggest you look at some photos of Louis at 213 lbs. He is ripped. I guess he just filled out to that weight.


There can be different periods in fighter's career. Most of Walcott's career he was nothing more than a journeyman (definition of this word was discussed here some time ago).


Jack Johnson and Jack Dempsey both worked as journeymen. That dose not mean that you say-

"Gene Tunney only really beat a journeyman called Jack Dempsey"

or

"Jess Willard only won the title because it had fallen into the hands of a journeyman called Jack Johnson"


Majority view of whom?


The IBRO poll had both Walcott and Charles in the top 20. A similar poll conducted on this site would probably produce the same result.

You are entitled to disagree of course but it is the consensus.

Charles' achievements at heavyweight are MEDIOCRE.

Is wining the lineal heavyweight title a mediocre achievment?


Archie Moore cleaned out the heavyweight division?!? Hold your horses!


He made a prety clean sweep of the top contenders.


What weight?


168, 175. Take your pick.

Either way he will be a super middleweight beating up on an ageing natural middleweight. Or more corectly a light heavyweight beating up on an ageing natural middleweight.

[Senya13]

A contender who splits series with two lineal champions cannot be called an average fighter by any stretch of the english language.
I don't care a little bit about this lineal/linear championship shit. It's a theory that has no practical usage, when evaluating a fighter's level or trying to predict the result of some bout. The guy drew with Dale Hall and Andy Walker a month prior to meeting with Walcott. That's a very clear sign that he was an average fighter. Lost to Dave Whitlock several months prior also. Managed to beat an old shot natural light heavy in Charles (in Layne's home state, wink-wink). But lost to Willie James and Kid Matthews in between.

Many writers were hailing Layne as the next champion and he went into the fight with Marciano as the betting favourite.
That's because Marciano wasn't proven either. And if I start counting how many times the press (including Ring magazine) was wrong on naming prospects as future champions, I'd get into hundreds of fighters who never managed to achieve what they were predicted.

A fighter can get mashed up and broken down at any age. All it takes is a suficiently bad beating.
Examples of fighters with proven solid chin by 23, who lose the chin all a sudden after a loss at this age?

If Carmine Vingo had atempted a comeback after the Marciano fight do you imagine his chin would have still been as good as before?
As good as what? It was completely unproven prior to Marciano fight.

You seem to have some trouble grasping the definition of tomatoe cans and journeymen.
You seem to not understand that fighters can change their status several times in their career. Prospect, contender, champion, great, journeyman (as they got older), then tomato can (as they got completely shot).

That journeyman he upset was a consensus top 20 all time lineal heavyweight championat or close to the peak of his abilities.
There's no consensus top 20 for Walcott. Walcott had been a journeyman for large part of his career. During the 3 years prior to Layne loss, Walcott lost to both great fighters he met in Louis and Charles, and only managed to beat other journeymen or tomato cans. That's what journeyman is, a good, but not really great craftsman.

You don't think that Walcott and Satterfield were among the toughest tests available in the heavyweight division at the time?
Walcott was NEVER a big puncher. A tricky puncher, yes, but never a big one. Light heavyweight (pretty much) Satterfield dropped Layne, the test was not passed. Satterfield didn't drop a lot of people prior and after that, but he DID drop Layne. Logic suggests those lot of people might have had better chin than Layne then?

If they were journeymen of the period then who are the contenders he could have fought if he wanted a stifer test?
Most contenders are journeymen. Good at their profession, but not extraordinary/great.

Are you questioning Satterfields credentials as a puncher?
He didn't knock out or even down a lot of people. He had punching power, obviously, but he wasn't a great puncher.

[Senya13]

No man who is training 14 hours a day would naturaly have that level of body fat. The only reason for that kind of conditioning is not training properly.
Training for what? For marathon? Stamina is only one small component of being successful at boxing. If you have seen Tua at the Olympic games (where he was stopped by Savon), he looked too thin/small, but at the same time he wasn't ripped either, and it certainly hurt his durability.

He had good natural stamina but he was not well conditioned. If he had come to Charlie Goldman in that condition he would have been told to get his act together.
Again, what would he be training for? Marathon? I can guess Joe Louis could train down to 190, if he really wanted (he did weigh that low early in his career), but he'd have to sacrifice a lot of things. Fat is the source of energy for our body, water is very important also. Sacrifice too much of them, and you will only do yourself harm, not get better.

[janitor]

I don't care a little bit about this lineal/linear championship shit. It's a theory that has no practical usage, when evaluating a fighter's level or trying to predict the result of some bout.

It is the only common standard there is while comparing fighters from diferent eras. If a fighter is the champion then they are typicaly the best of their era .


The guy drew with Dale Hall and Andy Walker a month prior to meeting with Walcott. That's a very clear sign that he was an average fighter.

Not necisarily. You have to consider the circumstances surronding the bouts the durasitiction etc etc. It was verry unusual in this era for prospects not to pick up a loss or draw on their way up to a title shot due to the way they were brought forward.


Lost to Dave Whitlock several months prior also. Managed to beat an old shot natural light heavy in Charles (in Layne's home state, wink-wink). But lost to Willie James and Kid Matthews in between.


Layne was already on the slide by the time he lost to James and Matthews.


That's because Marciano wasn't proven either. And if I start counting how many times the press (including Ring magazine) was wrong on naming prospects as future champions, I'd get into hundreds of fighters who never managed to achieve what they were predicted.


You say Marciano was not proven either.

Is what you are trying to say that Layne had beaten better competition at this point?

If so then you must give Marciano credit for beating a more experienced oponent who was already proven vs the best.


Examples of fighters with proven solid chin by 23, who lose the chin all a sudden after a loss at this age?


Give me a baseball bat and I will make any fighter into a broken down man with no punch resistence.

It is honestly that simple.


You seem to not understand that fighters can change their status several times in their career. Prospect, contender, champion, great, journeyman (as they got older), then tomato can (as they got completely shot).


When asesing a win you quote the status the oponent was at when the win took place.

There's no consensus top 20 for Walcott.

There is clearly a consensus among the IBRO. If you conducted a similar poll on this site he would end up top 20 or conservatively top 25.

That is consensus.


That's what journeyman is, a good, but not really great craftsman.


A journeyman is sombody who is expected to loose his major fights.

Walcott was NEVER a big puncher. A tricky puncher, yes, but never a big one.

Debatable.

Abe Simon said that Walcott hit harder than Joe Louis.

Whether he was a puncher or not he was the toughest test out there apart from the champion.

[quote]Light heavyweight (pretty much) Satterfield dropped Layne, the test was not passed.

It dosn't matter what Satterfield weighed. He hit like a truck and proved it against heavyweights well over 200lbs. Look at what Satterfield did to Bob Baker then look at what Layne took from him and came back.

You act as if being lighter automaticaly makes a man a lighter hitter.

Do you think that Primo Carnera hit harder than Bob Satterfield?


Satterfield didn't drop a lot of people prior and after that, but he DID drop Layne. Logic suggests those lot of people might have had better chin than Layne then?


Satterfield knocked a lot of people out.

Dose that suggest that a lot of people had worse chins than Layne.


He didn't knock out or even down a lot of people. He had punching power, obviously, but he wasn't a great puncher.


Ring magazine ranked him (Walcott too incidentaly) in their top 100 punchers.

Whether or not they are right there is no deneying Satterfields finishing ability.

[Senya13]

I don't doubt that Louis was way past his best but he was still only loosing to the best out there. Louis only ever lost to other lineal heavyweight champions even late in his career.
Because the division was weak, that's why Louis was losing only to great fighters.

I suggest you look at some photos of Louis at 213 lbs. He is ripped. I guess he just filled out to that weight.
This subject was discussed, I believe, about a year ago, with photographs, etc. Louis was far from ripped, there was excessive weight clearly visible on his arms and his waist, I pointed it out then, you should remember it.

Jack Johnson and Jack Dempsey both worked as journeymen.
What you mean "worked as"?

That dose not mean that you say-
"Gene Tunney only really beat a journeyman called Jack Dempsey"
With Dempsey situation was confusing. He was semi-retired, and thus there was no simple way to evaluate his status as a fighter at the time of the fights with Tunney. There's no point relative to which we could do that.

"Jess Willard only won the title because it had fallen into the hands of a journeyman called Jack Johnson"
Prior to that fight Johnson wasn't losing to any contenders or tomato cans. By definition he wasn't a journeyman at the time of this loss.

The IBRO poll had both Walcott and Charles in the top 20. A similar poll conducted on this site would probably produce the same result.
If you have ever read Ring magazines with this or that kind of ratings they sometimes compile, even though some things get a top placement, but detailed results of the poll show they didn't get a consensus, they only got a majority. There's a difference. You start it here, and you will have several people (including me) who don't have Walcott or Charles in Top 20, for different reasons. Ratings are subjective thing, and everyone understands the criteria for it differently.

You are entitled to disagree of course but it is the consensus.
Even if just one man out of a million disagrees with something, there is no consensus.

Is wining the lineal heavyweight title a mediocre achievment?
It means little. A lot of boxers can win a title for one or two fights, that means little.

He made a prety clean sweep of the top contenders.
Obviously we have a different understanding of "clean up" of a division.

168, 175. Take your pick.
It will hold less weight than Jermain Taylor's (be it controversial, I had it split, for example) two wins over Hopkins at 160lb.

Either way he will be a super middleweight beating up on an ageing natural middleweight. Or more corectly a light heavyweight beating up on an ageing natural middleweight.
Hopkins never really was a natural middleweight in his pro career. He's more like natural big super middle or natural light heavy, how uses extensive training to get down to middleweight. Same as Jake LaMotta was never a natural middle, for example, but was a 168-175-pounder.

[janitor]

[quote=Senya13]Because the division was weak, that's why Louis was losing only to great fighters.


Circular logic.

The division is weak because Louis is still beating top fighters but Louis is shot if he is not beating top fighters.


This subject was discussed, I believe, about a year ago, with photographs, etc. Louis was far from ripped, there was excessive weight clearly visible on his arms and his waist, I pointed it out then, you should remember it.


I don't

Why dont you produce these photographs.

In fact compare them to Tua in his prime so we can have a laugh.


What you mean "worked as"?


Johnson and Dempsey were employed as journeymen. That was in effect their amateur career and their profesional aprenticship.

The same is true of Walcott to a lesser extent.


Prior to that fight Johnson wasn't losing to any contenders or tomato cans. By definition he wasn't a journeyman at the time of this loss.


But he was a former journeyman just like Walcott, and like Walcott he had reached a stage of his career where he only lost to the best of the division.


Even if just one man out of a million disagrees with something, there is no consensus.


Then there is no such thing as a consensus.

Call it something diferent if you want. An average of opinion.


It means little. A lot of boxers can win a title for one or two fights, that means little.


It means a great deal if there are only eight weight classes and one title per weight class. Especialy in an era where the best fighters actualy fought one another.

Obviously we have a different understanding of "clean up" of a division.

What more would you ask of him?


It will hold less weight than Jermain Taylor's (be it controversial, I had it split, for example) two wins over Hopkins at 160lb.


What if he won by knockout?


Hopkins never really was a natural middleweight in his pro career. He's more like natural big super middle or natural light heavy, how uses extensive training to get down to middleweight. Same as Jake LaMotta was never a natural middle, for example, but was a 168-175-pounder


Charles was getting a bit heavy for the light heavyweight division by the time he fought Marciano if you want to play that game.

[janitor]

[quote=Senya13]Because the division was weak, that's why Louis was losing only to great fighters.


Circular logic.

The division is weak because Louis is still beating top fighters but Louis is shot if he is not beating top fighters.


This subject was discussed, I believe, about a year ago, with photographs, etc. Louis was far from ripped, there was excessive weight clearly visible on his arms and his waist, I pointed it out then, you should remember it.


I don't

Why dont you produce these photographs.

In fact compare them to Tua in his prime so we can have a laugh.


What you mean "worked as"?


Johnson and Dempsey were employed as journeymen. That was in effect their amateur career and their profesional aprenticship.

The same is true of Walcott to a lesser extent.


Prior to that fight Johnson wasn't losing to any contenders or tomato cans. By definition he wasn't a journeyman at the time of this loss.


But he was a former journeyman just like Walcott, and like Walcott he had reached a stage of his career where he only lost to the best of the division.


Even if just one man out of a million disagrees with something, there is no consensus.


Then there is no such thing as a consensus.

Call it something diferent if you want. An average of opinion.


It means little. A lot of boxers can win a title for one or two fights, that means little.


It means a great deal if there are only eight weight classes and one title per weight class. Especialy in an era where the best fighters actualy fought one another.

Obviously we have a different understanding of "clean up" of a division.

What more would you ask of him?


It will hold less weight than Jermain Taylor's (be it controversial, I had it split, for example) two wins over Hopkins at 160lb.


What if he won by knockout?


Hopkins never really was a natural middleweight in his pro career. He's more like natural big super middle or natural light heavy, how uses extensive training to get down to middleweight. Same as Jake LaMotta was never a natural middle, for example, but was a 168-175-pounder


Charles was getting a bit heavy for the light heavyweight division by the time he fought Marciano if you want to play that game.

[Jear]

[quote]


Natural my ass. If it's a cultural thing that individuals from aboriginal origins tend to have different nutritional guidelines, then that might be one thing, but you're just flat out saying that it's an inherited trait for an entire group to be walking around with excess bagage. That's just a load of crap.


Senya is partially correct here, Tua is not actually Maori, the native NZers, but of Samoan extraction.

Research has been done on the Samoan and Tongan races and they have been found to have a genetic tendancy to have a larger and denser muscle mass than other races. It was suggested, in the doco Ive seen on it, that taro a root vegetable that is a staple part of their diet, contains a natural agent that contributes to this phenomenom.

I live in Auckland which is the largest Polynesian city in the world, and can assure you that I have no doubt that Tua would be unable to get below 220lb.

[Dempsey1238]

Lets not forget that Marciano ruin Layne with that right hand. It was no normal punch, as people said it shaved the limbs of Layne's fronth teeth. That punch took something out of Layne. He was damage goods after that.

[KTFO]

You also added the words " certainly not by Marciano ", implying that Rocky would have even less of a chance than the average Joe Blow.

Once again, I agree that Tua takes this one, but you may want to watch how you word some of this stuff, and look for more solid reasons in your debate.



The reasons are clear. Thank you. I posted it already.
Even Lewis or Ibeabuchi couldn't KO Tua.......so.........certainly not by Marciano.

Where are your reasons to assume Marciano would have a slight chance to KO Tua?

[KTFO]

For some reason, people always mention how much weight Tua has on Marciano. Tua weighed around 220-230, about 25lbs of it was flab. Not good. If he trained as hard as Marciano, then he would be around 190-200.



Why should he do that? If Tua would do that he might be drained. But I assume that is exactly what you would want.

[bumdujour]

This is a stylistic nightmare for rocky. the only way to fight tua was to stay on the outside and jab and move. like lewis did.

but rocky cant do it. he´d go right in there and have it out. and there, he cant win.
either tua ko´s him early or after five rounds rocky would be cut too badly to continue.

tua by ko or tko.

[mr. magoo]

[Where are your reasons to assume Marciano would have a slight chance to KO Tua?


oh, I don't know, the fact that he's one of the best rated punchers of all time, and that I happen to subscribe to the theory that a big puncher always has a chance of knocking out another big puncher. Does that mean that I think it would happen? No, but I'd say it's worth giving anybody a slight chance.

[KTFO]

oh, I don't know, the fact that he's one of the best rated punchers of all time, and that I happen to subscribe to the theory that a big puncher always has a chance of knocking out another big puncher.


How would Maciano 'generate' those KO-punches against Tua in a better way than Lewis or Ibeabuchi?

[McGrain]

How would Maciano 'generate' those KO-punches against Tua in a better way than Lewis or Ibeabuchi?


Your objections are fair; but Rocky is different to either of these guys. He throws more punches and is generally more aggressive. He will probably throw more hurtful punches that could pontentially lead to a KO than either of these guys.

Though I favour Tua to make the final bell.

[mr. magoo]

How would Maciano 'generate' those KO-punches against Tua in a better way than Lewis or Ibeabuchi?

Well, I can't say much about Ike, given that I've seen very little footage of him, but as for Lewis, there's a reasonable explanation. Lennox boxed Tua, and mainly kept him on the end of a jab for most of the evening. Sure he nailed him with some good solid shots from time to time, but it wasn't exactly a puncher's fight. Marciano got within 6 to 8 inches of his opponents and penetrated their comfort zones by more or less swarming them. He was strong in both arms, and could really bust guys up to the point of facial disfigurement. On numerous times in his career he took out teeth, busted jaws, cut guys open, and broke ribs. Roland Lastarza was regarded as one of the best defensive fighters of all time. Rocky couldn't hit him in the face or body, so he proceeded to pound Lastarza's arms, and eventually broke through to score a TKO. Lastarza needed surgary on both arms, and was never quite the same fighter again. Rock was incredibly strong for his size, and was one of the few fighters of his era to use weight training in preparation for a match. A lot of folks make a huge deal about his only weighing 185 Lbs, but rest assured, there wasn't an ounce of excess bagage on him. Although he's known for being a great puncher, he could go 15 rounds to beat you, or he'd knock you out in 1 round if he had the chance. He never showed up unmotivated and he always gave his best efforts. If you ask me, we could use more guys like Marciano today.

That said, I'd still pick Tua, but hopefully I've answered your question as to why an upset isn't entirely beyond the realm of possibilty.

Have a nice evening.

[KTFO]

Your objections are fair; but Rocky is different to either of these guys. He throws more punches and is generally more aggressive. He will probably throw more hurtful punches that could pontentially lead to a KO than either of these guys.




I don't think that Marciano throws more punches than Lewis.
I don't think that Marciano is more aggressive than Lewis.
I don't think that Marciano threw more hurtful punches than Lewis.

I do think that size matters when generating powershots.
I do think that weight matters when generating powershots.
I do think that you need skills to combine size and weight when generating powershots.

And still I can't see anything that Marciano could do better than Lewis.

[McGrain]

I don't think that Marciano throws more punches than Lewis.
I don't think that Marciano is more aggressive than Lewis.

Well you are dead wrong on both counts, but there's nothing I can do about that.

It is really not possible to BE more aggressive that Marciano is within the rules of boxing.

I don't think that Marciano threw more hurtful punches than Lewis.

Well I didn't say he did - I said he was more likely to LAND a hurful punch (assuming the fight goes 12).

I do think that size matters when generating powershots.
I do think that weight matters when generating powershots.
I do think that you need skills to combine size and weight when generating powershots.

I agree - but it's not THE most important thing (unless the size discrepincies are huge).

And still I can't see anything that Marciano could do better than Lewis.

You know very little about Marciano. You've proved that here.

Look, you have people in this thread AGREEING with your pick who think a LOT more highly of Marciano than you do. That is a big clue. Heed it.

[KTFO]

Well you are dead wrong on both counts, but there's nothing I can do about that.

It is really not possible to BE more aggressive that Marciano is within the rules of boxing.



Lewis landed tons of punches and didn't KD Tua.

Did you see Lewis fight? Aggression par excellence. Even if people think he used his size too often for long range attacks.


Well I didn't say he did - I said he was more likely to LAND a hurful punch (assuming the fight goes 12).


A few hurtful punches don't destroy Tua's chin.



I agree - but it's not THE most important thing (unless the size discrepincies are huge).



Now compare Marciano's size and Lewis'. What are the discrepancies there?


You know very little about Marciano. You've proved that here.

Look, you have people in this thread AGREEING with your pick who think a LOT more highly of Marciano than you do. That is a big clue. Heed it.


Just because Marciano-nuthuggers are severly biased doesn't degrade experts to layman.

[Sweet Science]

Marciano is highly underrated by most. He may have been crude to an extent but he had qualities that are very rare and was a cut above Tua. He fought for every second of every round. The constant pressure he was able to apply throughout the full 15 rounds was just unbelievable, I don't think I have ever seen him get tired. His stamina was on a similar level to Henry Armstrong. He had everything Tua had but in greater quantities, power, stamina, chin, heart. Marciano also had a fairly quick hands, a hell of a lot faster than most tend to give him credit for. I see Marciano taking a narrow points win. The only area where Tua equals Marciano is chin.

[fists of fury]

I just want to point out that Tua is by no means unvulnerable. Sure he has a granite chin, but Felix Savon (I think it was Savon) flattened him in the amateurs with a single right hand. The video is on youtube somewhere. Check it out.

I'm also getting sick and tired of people knocking Marciano's competition. The way some go on about it, you'd swear it was awful.

Marciano KO'd the tough Rex Layne who not only was the betting favourite, but was also regarded back then as the brightest prospect in the heavyweight division. That's a fact.

Against Carmine Vingo, Rocky had to fight an established Garden fighter who was highly thought of. Marciano took him on in his own back yard and knocked him out.

Harry 'Kid' Matthews was a small heavyweight, actually a light heavyweight, but still only a few pounds lighter than Marciano. He was a fine technical boxer with only 3 losses in over 90 fights. Rocky flattened him with a double left hook in 2 rounds.

Oh, and there was LaStarza who was 37-0 when he faced Marciano, and another heavyweight who was very highly regarded by the sports press.

That's a pretty impressive resume for a young up-and-coming guy. Not too many fighters have fought genuine prospects or world-class fighters on the way up.

Then you have his title opposition.

Say what you want about Walcott. You can laugh at his record or his age, but I'll challenge anyone to name a 37-year old who looked better than Walcott at that age. Maybe Lewis, but that's it.
Truth is, old Joe was absolutely brilliant the night he fought Marciano and most regard it as his best fight. People who comment on his age or whatever most likely have not seen the whole fight and have watched only snippets.
Watch the whole thing and tell me I'm wrong about Joe Walcott in this fight.
He would have beaten any other heavyweight in the world that night.

People also say Charles was an over-the-hill light heavyweight. Yes, his best days were behind him but he was still a very good fighter. Once more, many who saw the Charles fight commented that this was the best heavyweight version of Charles they had ever seen, because he came to fight instead of skitter around the ring as he normally did. Carles put up an unusually spirited resistance only to lose on points.
However, he clearly still lost and those who claim Rocky needed to win the last round to retain the title are false. Marciano won comfortably enough, and the rematch was one-sided but for the cut Marciano suffered in a clinch.
The fact that Charles barely managed to win a fight after the Marciano bout is a testament to how much those fights took out of Charles.

Don Cockel was in all fairness a 'soft touch' but he was still a world-ranked contender and the fight was really a test run to see how Marciano's nose stood up in the fight.

Then we have 'ageless' Archie Moore who after the Marciano fight was still to be a heavyweight contender for many years until Ali finally retired him. He was also coming off a win over the highly touted Nino Valdes and was Marciano's no. 1 contender. In addition, his legendary fights with Yvon Durell for the light heavyweight championship were still to come.

Seriously, that's not a half-bad resume all in all for Maricano. It stands up to the quality of most heavyweight reigns.

I find it ronic how Senya questions the quality of Marciano's opponents, yet Roy Jones who he fiercely defends has a reputation for fighting bums and tomato cans and avoiding the best fighters.

[McGrain]

Just because Marciano-nuthuggers are severly biased doesn't degrade experts to layman.

You need to re-read the part you quoted. I'm talking about people who picked against Marciano - they tend not to be Marciano-nuthuggers.

[KTFO]

You need to re-read the part you quoted. I'm talking about people who picked against Marciano - they tend not to be Marciano-nuthuggers.


You know very little about Marciano. You've proved that here.



I proved that Marciano-nuthuggers are biased, that's all. People have to get off the idea Marciano was a Comic-Superhero who'd floor a 7 foot giant with 300lbs just because he had workrate and some power for his weight class.

[fists of fury]

I proved that Marciano-nuthuggers are biased, that's all.

Fans of certain fighters are inherently biased.

[Mendoza]

Hard call. I want to start off by saying that Marciano had far more guts, stamina, and activity. I don't think Marciano would lose to cute boxers like Tua did to Byrd, lose to Rhaman, or opt to play it safe in a title match vs Lennox Lewis. But all of the above fighters had skills and jab to keep Tua at arms length. Rocky did not.

In a brawl between punchers, I prefer the man who hit harder and takes the better shot. This is a dangerous fight for Marciano. In my judgment, Tua hit harder and took a better punch. I'll reluctantly go with Tua to win via TKO, but it would not surprise me if Rocky’s indomitable will earns him a decision by making Tua passive.

[KTFO]

Fans of certain fighters are inherently biased.


Yes. If certain fighters have a matchup with equal opposition or stuff. But Marciano-nuthuggers are something special. They are the comic strip artists, the illusionists.

[mcvey]

Tua vs Marciano in their primes. Who wins and why?
Marciano,tua has a greaat chin but Id like to see him take punishment to the body he is allways up to 20lbs overweight,whatever anyone says about genetic disposition,je has flab around his chest ,hips ,belly and legs.I think we saw the real Tua when he fought Lewis,after sampling a few rights he opted for survival not winning,he has a great left hook ,so did Rocky ,he also had a more than fair right hand!

[janitor]

Yes. If certain fighters have a matchup with equal opposition or stuff. But Marciano-nuthuggers are something special. They are the comic strip artists, the illusionists.

I think you will find that the Marciano detractors are a far worse than the Marciano fans.

Some of those jokers hate Marciano to the point of obsesion. Litteraly.

[Jack]

Just out of interest, people mention Marciano's punch output, but wouldn't Tua at his best, vs. Ibeabuchi, land more? That fight broke the record for puches at heavyweight, as did Ibeabuchi, but Tua was right behind him.

I take it this does not include fights pre-Compubox, but it's still impressive for Tua. Would the average Marciano fight have had more punches thrown than what Tua was capable of?

What was Marciano's record over 12 rounds?

[McGrain]

What was Marciano's record over 12 rounds?

To be absolutley honest, I don't know the answer to this question.

But I do remember Dr.Z (remember him?) doing a pretty detailed analysis and he found that whilst Marciano's average punch stats may not have been quite as hight as people would expect, his busiest rounds were absolutley insane, of the charts.

Worth baring in mind that Z really had a dislike for Marciano and had bitter, bitter disputes with Q about that fighter.

[janitor]

Just out of interest, people mention Marciano's punch output, but wouldn't Tua at his best, vs. Ibeabuchi, land more? That fight broke the record for puches at heavyweight, as did Ibeabuchi, but Tua was right behind him.

I take it this does not include fights pre-Compubox, but it's still impressive for Tua. Would the average Marciano fight have had more punches thrown than what Tua was capable of?

What was Marciano's record over 12 rounds?

Marciano never fought a 12 round fight so his punch output would assume either a 10 or 15 round fight.

His punch output actualy increased significantly after he won the title. Against Joe Walcott he averaged about 40 punches per round while against Ezzard Charles and Archie Moore he averaged more like 80 punches per round. His highest output for a single round was about 120 in the first Charles fight.

In summary yes Tua could match Marciano's best punch rate for a 10 or 15 round fight over 12 rounds.

[mcvey]

To be absolutley honest, I don't know the answer to this question.

But I do remember Dr.Z (remember him?) doing a pretty detailed analysis and he found that whilst Marciano's average punch stats may not have been quite as hight as people would expect, his busiest rounds were absolutley insane, of the charts.

Worth baring in mind that Z really had a dislike for Marciano and had bitter, bitter disputes with Q about that fighter.
Plus every thing Marciano threw was hard ,from both mitts!

[mcvey]

I don't think that Marciano throws more punches than Lewis.
I don't think that Marciano is more aggressive than Lewis.
I don't think that Marciano threw more hurtful punches than Lewis.

I do think that size matters when generating powershots.
I do think that weight matters when generating powershots.
I do think that you need skills to combine size and weight when generating powershots.

And still I can't see anything that Marciano could do better than Lewis.
I think Marciano has better stamina than Lewis and a better chin,but how a man performs aginst one fighter is a very unreliable form book to measure him against another,the discussion is Marciano v Tua ,I beleive.

[KTFO]

the discussion is Marciano v Tua ,I beleive.



Yes. We were just talking about a KO possibility by Marciano that wouldn't happen because of Marciano lacking enough power for Tua's chin.

[Luigi1985]

Yes. We were just talking about a KO possibility by Marciano that wouldn't happen because of Marciano lacking enough power for Tua's chin.


When a fighter like Rahman can KD Tua, I bet Marciano could do it,too...


get real, boy

[mr. magoo]

When a fighter like Rahman can KD Tua, I bet Marciano could do it,too...


get real, boy

Common Luigi. Do you really expect fact to get in the way of KTFO's making a good retort?

[KTFO]

When a fighter like Rahman can KD Tua, I bet Marciano could do it,too...


get real, boy




Tua was hit by a punch after the bell that drove Tua to the ropes. Just tell the facts how they really are, boy.

And don't dare to provoke a fight with me cause I'd beat you heavily.
Same goes for Magoo.

[Luigi1985]

Common Luigi. Do you really expect fact to get in the way of KTFO's making a good retort?


:D

You´re right!

[Luigi1985]

Tua was hit by a punch after the bell that drove Tua to the ropes. Just tell the facts how they really are, boy.

And don't dare to provoke a fight with me cause I'd beat you heavily.
Same goes for Magoo.


Fact is, that he was KD, I didn´t write that he was almost KO´d or so. You beat me and mr magoo? In what? Do you mean a verbal contention or in a boxing fight, street fight or what? Answer...

[McGrain]

And don't dare to provoke a fight with me cause I'd beat you heavily.
Same goes for Magoo.

Both of those boys would be twice as good as you even if you were twice as good as you are.

[KTFO]

You can't do shyte. Teenboy.

[mr. magoo]

Tua was hit by a punch after the bell that drove Tua to the ropes. Just tell the facts how they really are, boy.

And don't dare to provoke a fight with me cause I'd beat you heavily.
Same goes for Magoo.


Why don't you just chill out man. This is a discussion forum and not a place for you to vent your frustrations or show us what a great keyboard warrior you are, because Personally I can care less. If you want to debate issues in a fair and intelligent manner, then fine your welcome. Otherwise take your hostility and over opinionated statements elsewhere.

[Luigi1985]

You can't do shyte. Teenboy.


You´re the little teenager here, although I´m not that often here I always read such stupid comments from you, it isn´t funny anymore, if I would be a moderator, I would ban you immediately, because you can only provoke other people and curse...

[KTFO]

Common Luigi. Do you really expect fact to get in the way of KTFO's making a good retort?


Keep your business to yourself boy.


Why don't you just chill out man. This is a discussion forum and not a place for you to vent your frustrations or show us what a great keyboard warrior you are, because Personally I can care less. If you want to debate issues in a fair and intelligent manner, then fine your welcome. Otherwise take your hostility and over opinionated statements elsewhere.


Then don't insult.

[Luigi1985]

Why don't you just chill out man. This is a discussion forum and not a place for you to vent your frustrations or show us what a great keyboard warrior you are, because Personally I can care less. If you want to debate issues in a fair and intelligent manner, then fine your welcome. Otherwise take your hostility and over opinionated statements elsewhere.


Very good post, mr magoo, I wanted to write a similar and long post, but I was too lazy to do it... :thumbsup

[KTFO]

You´re the little teenager here, although I´m not that often here I always read such stupid comments from you, it isn´t funny anymore, if I would be a moderator, I would ban you immediately, because you can only provoke other people and curse...


Goes for you and Magoo here. Thank you. You're on the ban list already.

[mr. magoo]

Then don't insult.


First of all, don't refer to me as boy you asshole. I never called you names at least not until now. Secondly, if you were offended by my little remark then I appologize as I was only having fun. If you feel as though you're being antagonized by other authors here, then maybe you need to look at the delivery style of some of your posts. You have the tendency to come accross as being somewhat arrogant. I don't know if that's your intention, but it certainly reads that way.

[KTFO]

Very good post, mr magoo, I wanted to write a similar and long post, but I was too lazy to do it... :thumbsup



Do it. Apparantly you're not too lazy to post other crap. So why not a long post? I'll check it later.

[KTFO]

First of all, don't refer to me as boy you asshole.


Asshole as an answer to the word boy. That's nice.

[Luigi1985]

Do it. Apparantly you're not too lazy to post other crap. So why not a long post? I'll check it later.


It makes no sense to discuss with idiots like you...

[mr. magoo]

Asshole as an answer to the word boy. That's nice.

I'm 33 years old and a father,

I don't particularly like having the word boy uttered at me in the sort of flippant fashion that you just did. Sorry about my remark, but again, I didn't start off calling you names.

[KTFO]

It makes no sense to discuss with idiots like you...


Where's your long post? I want to check it. And don't forget to be as explicit as you can.

[mcvey]

Yes. We were just talking about a KO possibility by Marciano that wouldn't happen because of Marciano lacking enough power for Tua's chin.
For anyone to ko Tua would be some acheivment,but its possible Marciano could outlast him and tko Tua,Tuas strength and power gaurantee that it would be a hard fight for Marciano,and vice versa,maybe because of my age I lean towards the old timer,after all Mannassa that teenager reckons Im senile,but Marciano is more proven to me,I cant get Tuas title shot out of my head ,he settled for surviving ,and didnt go for broke,against Rocky ,I think he has to.

[Luigi1985]

This is for any person in here who says Marciano would win or even make it out of one round..YOU ARE A FREAKING RACIST OR COMPLETELY RETARDED.
Tua would knock any pathetic loser like Marciano out in one round.


Yes, I confesses it, I´m a racist, I pick a white fighter who´s proven against the elite (and who won) over a white fighter who lost all his chances on top...

[Luigi1985]

This is for any person in here who says Marciano would win or even make it out of one round..YOU ARE A FREAKING RACIST OR COMPLETELY RETARDED.
Tua would knock any pathetic loser like Marciano out in one round.



Btw, are you the little sister of KTFO? :think

[janitor]

[quote=dave krieg]This is for any person in here who says Marciano would win or even make it out of one round..YOU ARE A FREAKING RACIST OR COMPLETELY RETARDED.


Are you saying that people who pick Marciano are automaticaly racist?


Tua would knock any pathetic loser like Marciano out in one round


What fights exactly did that pathetic looser loose?

His 49-0 won't go away incidentaly.

[Luigi1985]

[quote]


Are you saying that people who pick Marciano are automaticaly racist?



What fights exactly did that pathetic looser loose?

His 49-0 won't go away incidentaly.


Btw, do you know what he meant? Tua is also white, and why are we automatically racists if we don´t pick this fatty in this matchup?

[janitor]

[quote=janitor]


Btw, do you know what he meant? Tua is also white, and why are we automatically racists if we don´t pick this fatty in this matchup?

Presumably we are fatists.

[mcvey]

This is for any person in here who says Marciano would win or even make it out of one round..YOU ARE A FREAKING RACIST OR COMPLETELY RETARDED.
Tua would knock any pathetic loser like Marciano out in one round.
On behalf of the other posters thank you for your reasoned ,logical ,informed ,and objective opinion.

[mcvey]

On behalf of the other posters thank you for your reasoned ,logical ,informed ,and objective opinion.
PS, Krieg is German for war ,an apt surname for you I think!

[Luigi1985]

[quote=Luigi1985]

Presumably we are fatists.


:D

[janitor]

Rocky Marciano is the Jack Johnson of the 21st century.

[McGrain]

Tua would knock any pathetic loser like Marciano out in one round.



Worst post ever.

[McGrain]

Rocky Marciano is the Jack Johnson of the 21st century.



Wouldn't mind having this one explained...

[janitor]

Wouldn't mind having this one explained...

When Jack Johnson became the champion a cry went up for a great white hope to take the title from him.

When Rocky Marciano retired undefeated, he died. Thus preventing him from returning to the ring.

Then the cry went up in the minds of a small but vocal and obnoxious minority for a black hope to go back in time and smash his unbeaten record.

This dose not include posters who are Marciano skeptics or critics. Only those who are agresive in hounding him.

[Bummy Davis]

When Jack Johnson became the champion a cry went up for a great white hope to take the title from him.

When Rocky Marciano retired undefeated, he died. Thus preventing him from returning to the ring.

Then the cry went up in the minds of a small but vocal and obnoxious minority for a black hope to go back in time and smash his unbeaten record.

This dose not include posters who are Marciano skeptics or critics. Only those who are agresive in hounding him.


Very true, it kills some people because he was a white Italian as much as it kills others who hate Johnson for the same reasons, a Bigot is a Bigot, Black,White, and Marciano, humble as he was,kills People the way he defended vs the best Black and White contenders, Johnson really stuck it to them by fighting only white....look at what the men did in the ring, not the color, I love Boxing and I love talent in my sport

[Luigi1985]

Very true, it kills some people because he was a white Italian as much as it kills others who hate Johnson for the same reasons, a Bigot is a Bigot, Black,White, and Marciano, humble as he was,kills People the way he defended vs the best Black and White contenders, Johnson really stuck it to them by fighting only white....look at what the men did in the ring, not the color, I love Boxing and I love talent in my sport

Exactly! I mean, who gives a shit what skin colour the fighter has/ had? I estimate only because of that what they do in the ring, I´m not looking if they´re pretty enough for me or if they have the same skin colou like me, etc.

[Luigi1985]

Rocky can't hurt Tua



:lol:


Only Rahman can, and of course the murderous puncher Byrd with his famous devasting bodyshots...

[Bill1234]

I don't think that Marciano throws more punches than Lewis.
I don't think that Marciano is more aggressive than Lewis.
I don't think that Marciano threw more hurtful punches than Lewis.

I do think that size matters when generating powershots.
I do think that weight matters when generating powershots.
I do think that you need skills to combine size and weight when generating powershots.

And still I can't see anything that Marciano could do better than Lewis.


I do beleive your an idiot.

[McGrain]

Lewis hit him a lot with right hands that didn't seem to bother Tua very much.

You think? To me he almost looked like he gave up on the win after getting cracked with those shots.

[Muchmoore]

This is for any person in here who says Marciano would win or even make it out of one round..YOU ARE A FREAKING RACIST OR COMPLETELY RETARDED.
Tua would knock any pathetic loser like Marciano out in one round.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :D :lol:

[Luigi1985]

Rahman hit him after the bell. Lewis hit him a lot with right hands that didn't seem to bother Tua very much. He also went toe-to-toe with Ibeabuchi. Body shots hurt anyone, regardless how powerful you are.

Oh yeah, you seem to forget the left hook that put Marciano on his ass. If Tua's hook lands, Rocky is fucked.


You forget, that Walcott was a boxing master, who could crack with either hand from every angle, he hit Marciano with a picture- perfect shot, and Marciano wasn´t even on his back, he got up and beat Jersey Joe... Tua´s only real dangerous weapon is his left hook, who isn´t that fast and who´s pretty predictable...

[mr. magoo]

This is for any person in here who says Marciano would win or even make it out of one round..YOU ARE A FREAKING RACIST OR COMPLETELY RETARDED.
Tua would knock any pathetic loser like Marciano out in one round.


This is a very good example of a post to completely ignore. Hopefully this author is only a few weeks, or posts away from being banned,

............FOREVER.............

[mr. magoo]

Next thread - Would a prime Tony Tubbs have defeated Ali?
[/QUOTE]

The Ali who lost to Leon Spinks in 1978? Yes.

( you specified Tubbs as being in his prime, but not Ali ) :p

[McGrain]

Flabby, the picture that I think you're talking about is not the KO.

I think that that's right, yeah, allthought the photo of the KO is also pretty nice.

The orignal point still stands though - Rocky did indeed have a monstrous high gear that could be called upon in times of trouble. No-one is immune to that type of violence.

[Bummy Davis]

Tua can hit but he also struggled with fighters that have been ko'd by others and taken the distance, Krishna Wainwright, Lester Jackson,Everton Davis,Robert Hawkins,Sean Hart, and won SD over Cisse Salif and Jeff Wooden, so his power was not always evident, he scored good ko's over Rahman(then drew and was floored) and RUiz and Maskaev but his power does not always show up because all these men have been stopped and floored

[ChrisPontius]

Tua can hit but he also struggled with fighters that have been ko'd by others and taken the distance, Krishna Wainwright, Lester Jackson,Everton Davis,Robert Hawkins,Sean Hart, and won SD over Cisse Salif and Jeff Wooden, so his power was not always evident, he scored good ko's over Rahman(then drew and was floored) and RUiz and Maskaev but his power does not always show up because all these men have been stopped and floored

I thought he lost that fight against Rahman actually.

[fists of fury]

I thought he lost that fight against Rahman actually.

I thought so too.

I haven't actually voted yet, but to spite Dave Krieg and KTFO I'm picking Rocky.

[Bummy Davis]

I thought he lost that fight against Rahman actually.

I did also, he was slow and lethargic, no snap or real power

[Sizzle]

This fight is the end of David Tua, a fighter who realistically accomplished fuck all during his career. He only beat Rahman by hitting him after the bell, his supposed best win.

Marciano is the better two-handed puncher, with a far better workrate and a better idea of how to get inside opponents and actually make use of his power - Tua was kept at bay by Rahmans jab in their "draw" with absolutely no clue how to get in position to land his left-hook.

Obviously he won't have this problem with Marciano, who will welcome his onslaught, but my point is that he's an abysmal ring general, Marciano always managed to get his shots on target.

Marciano is underrated in every respect, his defense is much better than given credit for, as is his chin. I'd give Tua the edge in chin, but I fancy Marciano to land a lot more punches, from a lot more angles, and demolish Tua over the space of ten or so rounds.

[KTFO]

I haven't actually voted yet, but to spite Dave Krieg and KTFO I'm picking Rocky.



:fuckoff :vonnecunt :finger :ass :beat :finger5 :plzdie

[Bummy Davis]

This fight is the end of David Tua, a fighter who realistically accomplished fuck all during his career. He only beat Rahman by hitting him after the bell, his supposed best win.

Marciano is the better two-handed puncher, with a far better workrate and a better idea of how to get inside opponents and actually make use of his power - Tua was kept at bay by Rahmans jab in their "draw" with absolutely no clue how to get in position to land his left-hook.

Obviously he won't have this problem with Marciano, who will welcome his onslaught, but my point is that he's an abysmal ring general, Marciano always managed to get his shots on target.

Marciano is underrated in every respect, his defense is much better than given credit for, as is his chin. I'd give Tua the edge in chin, but I fancy Marciano to land a lot more punches, from a lot more angles, and demolish Tua over the space of ten or so rounds.

:good :good :good GOOD POST

[janitor]

:fuckoff :vonnecunt :finger :ass :beat :finger5 :plzdie

You don't seem to understand this site mate.

It is a melting pot of opinions.

People bounce ideas off each other.

Some of the posters who have had views furthest from mine have been the ones that I have got most out of.

If you come on this site wanting to convert everybody to your own view point you won't get much out of it.

[ChrisPontius]

This fight is the end of David Tua, a fighter who realistically accomplished fuck all during his career. He only beat Rahman by hitting him after the bell, his supposed best win.

Marciano is the better two-handed puncher, with a far better workrate and a better idea of how to get inside opponents and actually make use of his power - Tua was kept at bay by Rahmans jab in their "draw" with absolutely no clue how to get in position to land his left-hook.

Obviously he won't have this problem with Marciano, who will welcome his onslaught, but my point is that he's an abysmal ring general, Marciano always managed to get his shots on target.

Marciano is underrated in every respect, his defense is much better than given credit for, as is his chin. I'd give Tua the edge in chin, but I fancy Marciano to land a lot more punches, from a lot more angles, and demolish Tua over the space of ten or so rounds.

I too think Marciano would take him, but you have to give Tua credit for annihilating Ruiz in an astonishing 17 seconds. Ruiz was an ugly, boring fighter, but he did beat some quality heavyweights later on. Tua also knocked Moorer out in 30 or so seconds.
His fight with Ibeabuchi was very impressive as well, he showed good heart after those hard first 5 rounds in which Ibeabuchi literally threw 90 hard punches per round. I had Tua edging that fight by a point, the judges saw it otherwise.

[KTFO]

You don't seem to understand this site mate.

It is a melting pot of opinions.

People bounce ideas off each other.

Some of the posters who have had views furthest from mine have been the ones that I have got most out of.

If you come on this site wanting to convert everybody to your own view point you won't get much out of it.



I haven't actually voted yet, but to spite Dave Krieg and KTFO I'm picking Rocky


Is that the logic you use on this board?

[JIm Broughton]

I think it's time to stop comparing men who weighed 180-190lbs with monsters who weigh 220-240lbs. Tua has a proven chin against modern behemoths whereas Rocky fought men closer in size to himself. Watch his fight with Cockell. Rocky throws everything but the kitchen sink at Cockell and the fight goes nearly 10 rounds. Imagine Tua in there with Rocky. A bigger faster much more powerful opponent with a cement chin. This fight does'nt go past 5 rounds and it is'nt Tua who loses.

[janitor]

I think it's time to stop comparing men who weighed 180-190lbs with monsters who weigh 220-240lbs.

Tua a 220-240 lb moster?

Dont be ridiculous. You might as well call Tony Galento a 220-240 lb monster.

[fists of fury]

Is that the logic you use on this board?

In your case, I'm willing to forego logic completely. :smoke

[mcvey]

This is kind of a funny matchup given that the only way for either of these fighters to win is by knockout, yet neither man was ever Ko'd in his career. In addition, both men fought similar styles, yet never faced anyone who fought like themselves. I don't see these guys slugging for 12 or 15 straight rounds without one of them being stopped in one way or another. There is simply too much power being traded back and forth for a decision to be possible. In the unlikely event that such a match did go the distance, it would probably result in both men having to donate their remains to science. If I were forced to pick, I'd probably have to go with Tua. He had about 40 Lbs on Marciano and although both guys had great chins, Tua's was tested more thoroughly against guys Like Lennox Lewis and a few others. Marciano could certainly take a walloping, but he was cut, rocked and floored multiple times to lesser punchers leaving me with the indication that Tua's power and chin would ultimately be a deciding factor. Sure, we can sit here and talk about who had more heart, more handspeed, whatever. But in the end, however, it comes down to two big vehicles coliding at full speed, and only one surivivor making it out alive.

Tua by knockout ( not sure what round. )
Marciano was floored twice ,by Walcott and Moore,that isnt "multiple times".

[mcvey]

He was never knocked out before facing Marciano and his only knockdown that I know of came against Bob Satterfield (no shame there).

After his back to back losses to Marciano and Charles he was damaged goods. His record after this point shows that he was not the same fighter.
Marciano did the damaging,as he did to most guys who fought him ,eg Cockell,Charles and Walcott,plus Vingo,the only fioghter who carried on successfully after being in with Rocky was Moore.

[MonzonFan914]

This would be an epic fight....but without a doubt in my mind I would pick the Rock to come out on top in the end. He was just smart in the ring and I believe his boxing smarts along with his amazing power,toughness, and chin would be enough to finish Tua off.

[Tuaman]

Nobody won a fight with Tua by trying to slug it out with him. People who tried this style always ended up on the canvas, counted out or referee stopping to save them.

Ike Ibeabuchi defeated Tua by slugging with him. Some rounds he boxed; in others he brawled. He mixed it up nicely and walked away with a win (although a close one).

Tua is not getting stopped by Rocky Marciano. His chin was iron.

I see Tua winning this for several reasons.

A) Rocky throws wild, looping haymakers. He's open for counters. Tua would respond with crushing left hook counters

B) Rocky would be sure to get cut in this fight somewhere. Even if he survived Tua's bombs, he's getting cut, which could lead to a TKO stoppage.

C) Both men were around the same height, and would duck into each others punches. Prime Tua (1994-1997) was a lot like Marciano--he always found a way to win and would crank up the pressure when his opponent turned on the heat.

D) Prime Tua had busy hands and threw meaningful combinations

E) Tua is a real heavyweight. These two wouldn't even be able to fight today.

Rocky has his advantages as well. Who knows how Tua would react to being constantly struck in the arms, ribs, etc? Chris Bryd shut David down with a body attack. It ultimately depends on which David Tua shows up. If he came out and went right to buisness the way he did against Moorer and Ruiz, he stops Rocky early.

However, the 245 pound David Tua who submitted to Lennox Lewis would get beat down by Rocky for 15 rounds, but not stopped. David's performance would depend on his mental mindset. One thing is for sure--Rocky would be there to win.

Prime David Tua blows out Rocky early, but the post Ibeabuchi David Tua will most likely lose confidence and the decision on the judges scorecards.

[cuchulain]

And they say there's a lot of rubbish posted in the GF.

:-(

Tua will have a puncher's chance, since he could punch.

Not a great one though, given Rocky's chin.


The most likely outcome here is a wide UD for Marciano.

Totally different levels of boxing skill.

Marciano's defence was much better than many on this thread believe.

He had good defensive head movement which made it difficult to nail him cleanly.

Tua should have lost to Rahman in 98. He landed a sucker punch after the bell that devastated Rahman who was miles ahead.

He lost to the much smaller but better Byrd.

He struggled with David Izon.

In his prime, he eeked out a a majority decision over a dude name of Jeff Wooden (admittedly, I didn't see that fight).

Tua has no wins that would suggest any success over Marciano.

Tua could perhaps land the perfect shot and end things early.

Otherwise, it's probably going to a lop-sided decision.

[SuzieQ49]

I am a fan of David Tua, but man does he get overrated in h2h matchups. He was no Tyson or Foreman. Tua would not beat Frazier, Marciano, or Dempsey in my opinion. Tua has too many leaks and I question his ability to take it to the body.

[john garfield]

Layne had no chin. Vingo was a tomato can.

Read your posts about Rocky 'n LaMotta over a long period, S. They smack of more than trashing fighting skills...more like a personal crusade against them.

To dismiss Layne 'n Vingo like so much detritus is never to have seen 'em fight live, or how dangerous they were considered by the savviest boxing trainers.

[SuzieQ49]

John,

Did you ever see Layne train live in the gym? What was your opinion of him when he was on the rise? What did you think of his punching power?

[john garfield]

John,

Did you ever see Layne train live in the gym? What was your opinion of him when he was on the rise? What did you think of his punching power?

Layne was a brute on the rise -- dead game. Hit like train, S

[SuzieQ49]

Thanks John. What a brawl this was in case you haven't caught it on youtube

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[lufcrazy]

I don't know what i'm more disappointed with. The thread even being created or the fact that almost half of voters think tua knocks rocky out?

Tua is a perennial contender, his so called power couldn't stop byrd or lewis. He got outgunned by ike. There is a reason he has never been champion in an era containing beltholders such as ruiz, valuev, hide, bentt, maskaev. That reason is simply that tua is not good enough.

He loses this fight by stoppage late on.

I'm not being a smartarse and dismissing other people's opinions here btw, I don't wanna come across like that, I just don't envision a way that tua ever wins this.

[yancey]

Layne had no chin. Vingo was a tomato can.


That describes a lot of Marciano opponents.

[round15]

Conditioning is key here.

If Marciano can weather the early storm of Tua, which I believe he likely does, I'd bet on the Rock grinding out a stoppage victory somewhere around 8 or 9. Tua would have his moments in the fight and might put the Rock in serious danger early, but I don't think he'd stop Marciano.

[he grant]

I don't know what i'm more disappointed with. The thread even being created or the fact that almost half of voters think tua knocks rocky out?

Tua is a perennial contender, his so called power couldn't stop byrd or lewis. He got outgunned by ike. There is a reason he has never been champion in an era containing beltholders such as ruiz, valuev, hide, bentt, maskaev. That reason is simply that tua is not good enough.

He loses this fight by stoppage late on.

I'm not being a smartarse and dismissing other people's opinions here btw, I don't wanna come across like that, I just don't envision a way that tua ever wins this.

Post is ridiculous ... Lewis used an 84" reach and 6'5' height to outbox Tua ... he did not trade with him .. how is Rocky with his 67" reach going to fignt the much bigger, stronger, faster and harder hitting Tua ? Out jab him ?... get real please ... Chrid Byrd was an exceptional, highly elusive boxer ... he did not trade with Tua ... do you have a clue that styles make fight ? It's far different trading with 40 plus natural light heavyweight Archie Moore but against Tua Rocky is giving up way too much in a stylistic nightmare for him ..

[Tuaman]

When it comes down to it, I can't imagine a 187 pound guy standing right in front of David Tua and surviving. Just because his name is Rocky Marciano doesn't mean he's going to win. He had buckets of heart (more heart than Tua, I admit) but this fight doesn't last long.

[lufcrazy]

Post is ridiculous ... Lewis used an 84" reach and 6'5' height to outbox Tua ... he did not trade with him .. how is Rocky with his 67" reach going to fignt the much bigger, stronger, faster and harder hitting Tua ? Out jab him ?... get real please ... Chrid Byrd was an exceptional, highly elusive boxer ... he did not trade with Tua ... do you have a clue that styles make fight ? It's far different trading with 40 plus natural light heavyweight Archie Moore but against Tua Rocky is giving up way too much in a stylistic nightmare for him ..

Ridiculous response. How would rocky outjab tua, do you even watch boxing?

Yes elusive byrd was also able to avoid ike.....

As for tua being a harder puncher than rocky. Stop.

Ofcourse tua can prove us wrong in the ring and achieve something. He still has time right?

[Kalasinn]

Ofcourse tua can prove us wrong in the ring and achieve something. He still has time right?

No, Tua is shot.

Being a lazy fatty for practically every fight he's had since 1999 fucked him physically.

Plus there was his 2 year layoff from '03 (Rahman II) to '05 (Griffis) & another 2 year layoff from '07 Fox to '09 (Cameron).

[Hydraulix]

When it comes down to it, I can't imagine a 187 pound guy standing right in front of David Tua and surviving.

Spot on, bro. :good


As for tua being a harder puncher than rocky. Stop.


Tua was a harder puncher than Rocky. I have no doubt about that. Tua is much bigger and stronger. I don't think Rocky would stop John Ruiz in 19 seconds or Michael Moorer in 30. The Susie-Q was deadly, but Rocky would normally club you to death the way he almost did Carmine Bingo. He could end things with one punch the way that Tua often does, but David did it a lot more often.

As for this fight, I think David makes quick work of Rocky, and then Butterbean comes in there and knocks them both out cold. :good

[hussleman]

Tua, is the one of the few HW you wanna slug it out with. Tua, is to big and strong fr the likes of R. Marciano. Tua, ko 5 rounds.

[he grant]

Ridiculous response. How would rocky outjab tua, do you even watch boxing?

Yes elusive byrd was also able to avoid ike.....

As for tua being a harder puncher than rocky. Stop.

Ofcourse tua can prove us wrong in the ring and achieve something. He still has time right?

You clearly know nothing ...

First tell me the biggest puncher Rocky ever fought.
Then tell me the largest top contender he ever fought and his age when Rocky fought him.
Then tell me how in the world he is going to slug with Tua who was much bigger , stronger, faster and harder hitting and who proved against Ike when in shape he could go a furious distance fight ..

Base it on actual Marciano fights, naming the opponents and how they compare ...

Then stop masturbating ... :D

[MagnaNasakki]

This is actually a horrible matchup for Rocky...

Bigger, stronger guy with a bigger punch and terrific durability. Outweighed him by nearly 30 pounds.

He'd have no choice but to get this fight late to win it. By late, I'm talking after the 8th round atleast, when his greater heart, will, and stamina could start to take over. Until then, it'd be target practice for Tua.

I don't think he could get it that far. Rocky goes down swinging, giving Tua the win in the 4th. This match up is exactly what I am always talking about: Rocky is an ATG heavyweight who is far from a head to head nightmare. His style worked for his era and his opposition, but as heavyweights grew and against the different styles of other greats, I don't think he'd be getting many wins over his fellow top ten heavies, and probably loses to a fair few David Tua perennial contenders as well.

[Hydraulix]

When it comes down to it, I can't imagine a 187 pound guy standing right in front of David Tua and surviving. Just because his name is Rocky Marciano doesn't mean he's going to win. He had buckets of heart (more heart than Tua, I admit) but this fight doesn't last long.

Tua, is the one of the few HW you wanna slug it out with. Tua, is to big and strong fr the likes of R. Marciano. Tua, ko 5 rounds.

You clearly know nothing ...

First tell me the biggest puncher Rocky ever fought.
Then tell me the largest top contender he ever fought and his age when Rocky fought him.
Then tell me how in the world he is going to slug with Tua who was much bigger , stronger, faster and harder hitting and who proved against Ike when in shape he could go a furious distance fight ..

Base it on actual Marciano fights, naming the opponents and how they compare ...

Then stop masturbating ... :D

This is actually a horrible matchup for Rocky...

Bigger, stronger guy with a bigger punch and terrific durability. Outweighed him by nearly 30 pounds.

He'd have no choice but to get this fight late to win it. By late, I'm talking after the 8th round atleast, when his greater heart, will, and stamina could start to take over. Until then, it'd be target practice for Tua.

I don't think he could get it that far. Rocky goes down swinging, giving Tua the win in the 4th. This match up is exactly what I am always talking about: Rocky is an ATG heavyweight who is far from a head to head nightmare. His style worked for his era and his opposition, but as heavyweights grew and against the different styles of other greats, I don't think he'd be getting many wins over his fellow top ten heavies, and probably loses to a fair few David Tua perennial contenders as well.

Thank you. People with common sense.

[MagnaNasakki]

Thank you. People with common sense.

You know your boxing, girl.

[Valane]

Post is ridiculous ... Lewis used an 84" reach and 6'5' height to outbox Tua ... he did not trade with him .. how is Rocky with his 67" reach going to fignt the much bigger, stronger, faster and harder hitting Tua ? Out jab him ?... get real please ... Chrid Byrd was an exceptional, highly elusive boxer ... he did not trade with Tua ... do you have a clue that styles make fight ? It's far different trading with 40 plus natural light heavyweight Archie Moore but against Tua Rocky is giving up way too much in a stylistic nightmare for him ..




I don't see how Marciano can win this fight to be perfectly honest. He has huge heart, but his style is all wrong for Tua, he is going to be walking right on to him.

[Valane]

Ridiculous response. How would rocky outjab tua, do you even watch boxing?

You see slow as hell Rock outjabbing Tua?

Yes elusive byrd was also able to avoid ike.....

Byrd was highly skilled, is that even debatable? He got caught...

As for tua being a harder puncher than rocky. Stop.

Tua is obviously a bigger puncher than Marciano, based on film.

Ofcourse tua can prove us wrong in the ring and achieve something. He still has time right?

Styles make fights.

......

[SuzieQ49]

You clearly know nothing ...

First tell me the biggest puncher Rocky ever fought.
Then tell me the largest top contender he ever fought and his age when Rocky fought him.
Then tell me how in the world he is going to slug with Tua who was much bigger , stronger, faster and harder hitting and who proved against Ike when in shape he could go a furious distance fight ..

Base it on actual Marciano fights, naming the opponents and how they compare ...

Then stop masturbating ... :D


First tell me the biggest puncher Rocky ever fought.

Jersey Joe Walcott, Joe Louis, Archie Moore, Rex Layne. More importantly when did you ever see him badly hurt? We don't know what it takes to knock out rocky marciano. Also, what kind of never say die human windmill with two powerful mitts has Tua ever fought? Tua to me has quite a few problems with average chinny fighters on the scorecards. With rockys superior skills, body attack and leverage on the inside, combined with tua's sweet gut..I wouldn't rule out a decision win for Marciano on the cards.


Then tell me the largest top contender he ever fought and his age when Rocky fought him.

Joe Louis 6'2 214lb 37 years old. Rated # 2 in the world. There have been some great heavyweight champions in the past who could still fight good past there prime in their late 30's. I don't see why Louis shouldn't be on that list.


Then tell me how in the world he is going to slug with Tua who was much bigger , stronger, faster and harder hitting

Tua was not faster than Marciano. I don't agree with that. I also don't think the gap in size and strength is as wide as you make it out to be. It would be even closer if we take Tua off the anabolic steroids.


Base it on actual Marciano fights, naming the opponents and how they compare ...


I think Tua should be on trial here. Not Rocky Marciano. Rocky fought and beat hall of fame heavyweights while they were either still champions or # 1 rated contenders. Who has Tua ever beat who compares to a Jersey Joe Walcott or Archie Moore? Hasim Rahman? Oleg Maskaev? John Ruiz? :lol: His 3 best wins. Good wins, but not great wins. Tua is unproven vs a fighter of Marciano's style as well.

[SuzieQ49]

HeGrant,

Where you and I disagree with Marciano is styles. I see Rocky as matching up better against the big sluggers, while struggling with the fast technical boxers. You see visa verca. I just think rocky's relentless, stamina, workate, and good beard would allow him to break down many of those slower big sluggers in the later rounds when they were gassed(not the very elite foreman tyson liston). I see the fast moving boxers as being able to take advantage more of Marcianos shortcomings in technique and reach..and use there reach and skills to outbox him.

The blg slugger type styles Marciano fought (Rex Layne, Joe Louis, Johnny Skhor, Carmine Vingo) he destroyed. The boxer/defensive specialists Lastarza, Lowry, Charles, Walcott...all gave him quite a heap of trouble.

[apollack]

I think Marciano was faster and busier and actually had better defense. Hence I think he outworks Tua and wins a decision if he doesn't break him down and stop him. Is this a Tua on steroids or natural? I remember when Tua was a 200-pound amateur.

[Hydraulix]

I didn't know Tua was on steroids? That's news to me.

[PetethePrince]

Chris Byrd's body punches bothered him. Can't imagine how he'd feel when Rocky gives him a few love taps to the body. Oh wait, Tua's going to knock him out within the first 30 seconds... nevermind.

[Hydraulix]

Oh wait, Tua's going to knock him out within the first 30 seconds... nevermind.

That's very possible. When Tua gets right down to buisness, he's a scary ass man. And think about this; Both times Rocky was floored, it happened early in the fight when he was adapting. It normally took The Rock a few rounds to turn up the pressure. He was vulnerable early. If he's getting dropped at all, it's early in the fight. And Tua was great at that.

[choklab]

Tua dosnt qualify here. Its about levels. Tua was about arturo godoy's level. Tough fight for most champs but just not world champion material.

[round15]

Chris Byrd's body punches bothered him. Can't imagine how he'd feel when Rocky gives him a few love taps to the body. Oh wait, Tua's going to knock him out within the first 30 seconds... nevermind.

Where have you been Pete? Can't believe you'd sit this long without responding to some of the stuff in this thread.

I don't think Tua survives a Marciano body assault, but I don't think the Rock makes it through this fight unscathed. Tua would hit him and hurt him, but he's not stopping the Rock. I'd bet on Marciano tasting the canvas first but he'd return the favour in the middle rounds and stop Tua if it goes that long.

Tua's not KOing Marciano early. The Rock was just too tough and his speed is underrated considering some in other threads are adamant that he was a plodder and nothing more. Kinda ridiculous if you ask me.

[The Mongoose]

Marciano by stoppage...

And so hegrant doesn't take offense, Langford might stop Tua too.

[he grant]

Marciano by stoppage...

And so hegrant doesn't take offense, Langford might stop Tua too.

No offense taken ... I get a kick out of how fixated you are on me ...

[he grant]

Chris Byrd's body punches bothered him. Can't imagine how he'd feel when Rocky gives him a few love taps to the body. Oh wait, Tua's going to knock him out within the first 30 seconds... nevermind.

The question is not if Rocky has the power to hurt Tua ... the question is if he defeats him ... you make a comparison to Byrd showing how childish your thought process is ... Byrd boxed him and so avoided getting hit in return ... how would Rocky do that ? The only shot Marciano would have is to out slug him and that is a fantasy Princess ..

[round15]

No offense taken ... I get a kick out of how fixated you are on me ...

Break clean when I tell you to break!

[joebeadg]

Very bad matchup for Tia, rock would make him miss and counter. First or second round ko for rocky. Tua would be wondering for weeks when everything stops spinnig and take up knitting

[KOTF]

Marciano vs. Young would be a better match-up

[joebeadg]

Now that would be a real bad matchup for rocky, I think he'd be very frustrated, tired from missing all night, and pretty swollen from being countered, and probably knocked down once or twice, no way rock wins this one

[joebeadg]

Against Young I mean

[PowerPuncher]

No one is unbeatable in boxing, certain styles are all wrong for Marciano, Rocky fans are crying in this thread but Tua's style and attributes are probably all wrong for Rocky. Tua is bigger, stronger, harder hitting, a better chin and much more proven against bigger men. Technically Tua is very underrated and perhaps better than Rocky. Not only that but he's more explosive and isn't impeded by being a short man so much as Marciano is much closer to his height and Marciano while having an underrated defense is very hittable

Rocky either needs to be able to outbox or back him up to take away his power as Ibeabuchi managed somewhat, a 185lb Rocky just wouldn't be strong enough to back up Tua. Anyone trying to compare Tua's power to any of Rocky's opponents is either incredibly biased or doesn't know what they're looking at, Tua is 1 of the best HW punchers ever and much bigger than Rocky's opponents

This is a Foreman-Frazier-Ali scenario, Rocky will do much better against boxers and movers but against a massive explosive puncher he is on very dangerous ground

[joebeadg]

I don't think tua is much bigger than rock rock was a tough guy, old school tough I don't think tua will do good here, but hey, you never know

[PetethePrince]

The question is not if Rocky has the power to hurt Tua ... the question is if he defeats him ... you make a comparison to Byrd showing how childish your thought process is ... Byrd boxed him and so avoided getting hit in return ... how would Rocky do that ? The only shot Marciano would have is to out slug him and that is a fantasy Princess ..

What's childish about Chris Byrd's body punching hurting Tua. I'm not making a style analogy or comparison, the fact that you think that shows how stupid your thought process is... or maybe you just thoroughly enjoy trying to one up me. Now, do you not think that Marciano would ever get to his body? Or do you feel Tua KO's him within the first round? Just be honest, if that's what you believe then that's fine. I believe Marciano's lower center of gravity will have him punish Tua's body the way he did in the Louis and Layne fights. Yes, Marciano probably gets hurt and hits the floor. He may be more hurt in this fight than he ever was. But I'm confident in his toughness, stamina, and defense for him to weather the storm and come back strong.

Now picking Marciano against Tyson? Yeah, it's a little absurd, and I don't make that pick. But making the comparison that Tua and Tyson are equals, and that either pick is ridiculous because of style reasons... well yeah, that's ridiculous. You don't have to be a Marciano fan to pick Marciano... just read the thread.

[PetethePrince]

Where have you been Pete? Can't believe you'd sit this long without responding to some of the stuff in this thread.

I don't think Tua survives a Marciano body assault, but I don't think the Rock makes it through this fight unscathed. Tua would hit him and hurt him, but he's not stopping the Rock. I'd bet on Marciano tasting the canvas first but he'd return the favour in the middle rounds and stop Tua if it goes that long.

Tua's not KOing Marciano early. The Rock was just too tough and his speed is underrated considering some in other threads are adamant that he was a plodder and nothing more. Kinda ridiculous if you ask me.

Very fair assessment. Definitely likely. No easy fight, but it will turn strongly in Marciano's favor somewhere in the middle rounds I think.

[MagnaNasakki]

Very fair assessment. Definitely likely. No easy fight, but it will turn strongly in Marciano's favor somewhere in the middle rounds I think.

If he can get it there, I actually agree with you. But he's never been hit with that kind of power. Even the punchers he fought in his career relied a good deal on speed and placement. Tua hit like an artillery shell. Its about all he had, but Rocky wasn't exactly the hardest heavyweight ever to find.

If he can get it past 8 or 9, he takes over and probably dishes a beating down the stretch to a late stoppage. But I really don't see him getting there.

[PowerPuncher]

What's childish about Chris Byrd's body punching hurting Tua..

1. Tua was past prime
2. Byrd is nothing like Marciano, isn't nearly as elusive, doesn't fight on the back foot darting in and out, isn't a southpaw
3. Could Marciano hurt Tua to the body? Yes. Would he eat more clean punches than Byrd doing so and could get kocked out going to the body? Yes

[SuzieQ49]

Marciano ate this for dinner
[Only registered and activated users can see links]



Tua eats this

[Only registered and activated users can see links]



There is your difference

[bodhi]

Modern nutrition KO1.

[Liechhardt]

I'd favor Marciano in about 9 but he'd go through a lot before wearing Tua down.

[lufcrazy]

......

The poster I responded to made the claim that rocky would outjab tua. I refuted it.

Based on film rocky hits much harder than tua.

[lufcrazy]

You clearly know nothing ...

First tell me the biggest puncher Rocky ever fought.
Then tell me the largest top contender he ever fought and his age when Rocky fought him.
Then tell me how in the world he is going to slug with Tua who was much bigger , stronger, faster and harder hitting and who proved against Ike when in shape he could go a furious distance fight ..

Base it on actual Marciano fights, naming the opponents and how they compare ...

Then stop masturbating ... :D

Look at what you reply with. How childish do you want to be?

Rocky has beaten atg fighters such as charles joe and jersey. Yes they were old but they where the best around at the time.

Tell me the best chin tua dismantled. Tell me the best opponent that got outslugged by tua. Tell me the best world champion that tua beat.

I'm not gonna stoop to your level and question your intelligence but i'll ask you this.

If tua is so fast strong and big, why has he never achieved anything.

As for the fight rocky stands and trades, he wears tua down. Maybe tua catches him with a good shot at some point, but guess what, rocky aint moorer or ruiz, rocky gets back up and smacks the fat fuk back to the local fast food joint.

[fists of fury]

That's very possible. When Tua gets right down to buisness, he's a scary ass man. And think about this; Both times Rocky was floored, it happened early in the fight when he was adapting. It normally took The Rock a few rounds to turn up the pressure. He was vulnerable early. If he's getting dropped at all, it's early in the fight. And Tua was great at that.

That's probably true, but Rocky was not more vulnerable early than late. He was a little stiff at first against Walcott, but that was most likely nerves, and he was just caught with a peach of a shot versus Moore.
Neither situation would suggest to me he was vulnerable to an early assault.

[Swarmer]

oh shit oh shit MODERN NUTRITION IN THIS BITCH.

I do say, that burger looks pretty good. Marciano KO 6 fat samoan with middling resume.

[chancery]

Marciano is a top 10 all time heavyweight great. i cant pick these kinda good/ok Hw's against him. would be nice if Marciano weighed more than 190 though. about 220 would be nice. oh well I'll still say that Marciano survives 2 knockdowns and Kos Tua in the 10th round. all heart

[Jorodz]

13 pages...damn! well i haven't read them all but it's an interesting thread at the least.

basically i see marciano outworking and outslugging tua for a tough, grinding decision

the rock has a better workrate, stamina, and punches on par with a tua that outweighs him by 30 pounds

not easy, not always pretty but he just pulls ahead most rounds and takes the UD

[PetethePrince]

1. Tua was past prime
2. Byrd is nothing like Marciano, isn't nearly as elusive, doesn't fight on the back foot darting in and out, isn't a southpaw
3. Could Marciano hurt Tua to the body? Yes. Would he eat more clean punches than Byrd doing so and could get kocked out going to the body? Yes

1. David Tua was always past his prime. The only time he wasn't is when he fought Ruiz or Ike (His ultimate measuring stick for his prime... a fight he lost). Do you think better or more primed when he was 12 lbs heavier against Lewis?

2. Re-read what I wrote. I never made any connection to styles or attributes. Light-punching Chris Byrd's body punches visibly bothered Tua. Unless you think Tua knocks him out in the 1st round I imagine his body is going to get banged on a lot. Unless you're trying to imply that Marciano doesn't fight well on the inside or isn't a good body-puncher. I KNOW HE ISN'T BYRD and won't fight like Byrd!

3. Perhaps, but I don't think so. Rocky generally likes to get low, and inside with good leverage when he goes to the body. He's not reckless to the body, and doesn't try to counter to the body too often.

I'm more worried about Rocky's glove placement. I was recently watching Rocky's Ringside special and Atlas was praising Marciano for things that most people think are accidents, and crediting his defense to slip and roll with shots. However, he tends to like to place his right glove toward the center to block jabs/right and straight shots, which made him vulnerable to Walcott's left hooks early. I noticed he tried tightening his guard up better as the fight wore on. It's definitely a weakness of his, though. He seems to tighten that problem up when he's in a closer range, but Walcott is so tricky that he can shoot a long left hook after a feint or misdirection and catch you off guard. Tua's not going to counter over his right as I feel he'd be too worried about Rocky's power and punches, but he could slip in a short quick hook that Rocky's unprepared for. Overall, I think Rocky won't mess around with Tua though and Goldman would help him make the adjustment to tighten his guard against a close-range left hooker like Tua.

[MAG1965]

Marciano at his fighting weight could not handle David Tua and his left hook. Too small. Different divisions now.

[Tuaman]

Marciano at his fighting weight could not handle David Tua and his left hook. Too small. Different divisions now.

That's what it comes down to for me. Rocky would plant himself right in front of Tua. Not a good matchup for The Rock.

[MagnaNasakki]

I don't like the trend of calling guys winners in match up with a wave of the hand and "they were great, other guy wasn't. The end."

This game is about styles and men. If it wasn't, a lot of great fighters would have never lost to some of the guys they did.

[Ramon Rojo]

Tua by KO.

It's like APC going against a battle tank.

Rocky has no chance.

[lufcrazy]

This matchup isn't so much about rocky being great as it is about tua being a fat shite.

I don't anyone refutes that out of ten fights tua has a chance to land a lucky shot, but in general you would expect rocky to win. He is just all round better in every facet other than gut size.

[PowerPuncher]

1. David Tua was always past his prime. The only time he wasn't is when he fought Ruiz or Ike (His ultimate measuring stick for his prime... a fight he lost). Do you think better or more primed when he was 12 lbs heavier against Lewis?

2. Re-read what I wrote. I never made any connection to styles or attributes. Light-punching Chris Byrd's body punches visibly bothered Tua. Unless you think Tua knocks him out in the 1st round I imagine his body is going to get banged on a lot. Unless you're trying to imply that Marciano doesn't fight well on the inside or isn't a good body-puncher. I KNOW HE ISN'T BYRD and won't fight like Byrd!

3. Perhaps, but I don't think so. Rocky generally likes to get low, and inside with good leverage when he goes to the body. He's not reckless to the body, and doesn't try to counter to the body too often.

I'm more worried about Rocky's glove placement. I was recently watching Rocky's Ringside special and Atlas was praising Marciano for things that most people think are accidents, and crediting his defense to slip and roll with shots. However, he tends to like to place his right glove toward the center to block jabs/right and straight shots, which made him vulnerable to Walcott's left hooks early. I noticed he tried tightening his guard up better as the fight wore on. It's definitely a weakness of his, though. He seems to tighten that problem up when he's in a closer range, but Walcott is so tricky that he can shoot a long left hook after a feint or misdirection and catch you off guard. Tua's not going to counter over his right as I feel he'd be too worried about Rocky's power and punches, but he could slip in a short quick hook that Rocky's unprepared for. Overall, I think Rocky won't mess around with Tua though and Goldman would help him make the adjustment to tighten his guard against a close-range left hooker like Tua.

Well the thing was Tua was gasping for air way before any bodyshots, I don't recall Tua being badly hurt by bodyshots at all I thought it was more a case of him not being conditioned, chasing Byrd around and tiring. A prime Tua, the Tua that set punchstat records against Ibeaubuchi would not be gassing like this. Whats more because Rocky would fight him toe-toe he would not have to chase Rocky around the ring. A very different match up

The thought of crouching against a smaller man just isn't a particularly good idea as the taller Marciano would actually be coming down to Tua's punch range, making it easier for Tua to land. Marciano's advantage at close quarters of having the short arms would not be an advantage here as Tua was probably an even shorter puncher. Marciano may be in the perculiar situation of fighting on the back foot, looking to roll and scord right counters

[choklab]

This is a nonsence. Boxing is about levels. Yes tua was a good fighter but he just did not reach the elite level. There is a reason he did not reach it and it was not beacuse he was heavier than 1950s heavyweights its because he wasnt good enough.

I dont care how hard tua hit or how fat he was ANY fighter from the next level REGARDLES OF STYLE would exploit his short comings just like they did in real life.

Marciano was not simply an elite heavyweight (tua never was) rocky was also a solid ATG, on a much higher level.

[Jorodz]

I don't like the trend of calling guys winners in match up with a wave of the hand and "they were great, other guy wasn't. The end."

This game is about styles and men. If it wasn't, a lot of great fighters would have never lost to some of the guys they did.

very much agreed, it's a little silly to treat boxing like an episode of dragonball where the results are determined soley based on power levels or status and that the fight itself is a formality.

lesser fighters beat greater fighters based on styles, circumstances and a variety of other factors. it's happened before, and it'll happen again.

but these h2hs, imo, are weighing the balance of possibilities. if they fought 10 times, who wins more of them?

In this case, marciano wins more often than he loses. tua COULD beat him but i wouldn't say it happens more often than the opposite.

[PowerPuncher]

This is a nonsence. Boxing is about levels. Yes tua was a good fighter but he just did not reach the elite level. There is a reason he did not reach it and it was not beacuse he was heavier than 1950s heavyweights its because he wasnt good enough.

I dont care how hard tua hit or how fat he was ANY fighter from the next level REGARDLES OF STYLE would exploit his short comings just like they did in real life.

Marciano was not simply an elite heavyweight (tua never was) rocky was also a solid ATG, on a much higher level.

So beating 2 lineal HW Champs, 1 WBC Champ, 1 WBA champ, making a total of 4 champs and numerous top contenders, yet he isn't an elite HW?

Rocky isn't reaching an ATG status in the 90-00s against Lennox Lewis either

[he grant]

This is a nonsence. Boxing is about levels. Yes tua was a good fighter but he just did not reach the elite level. There is a reason he did not reach it and it was not beacuse he was heavier than 1950s heavyweights its because he wasnt good enough.

I dont care how hard tua hit or how fat he was ANY fighter from the next level REGARDLES OF STYLE would exploit his short comings just like they did in real life.

Marciano was not simply an elite heavyweight (tua never was) rocky was also a solid ATG, on a much higher level.

You are wrong. Boxing is about styles .. A beats B, B beats C does not mean A beats C ... the question is not if Marciano was a better fighter or a better pound for pound fighter but who wins straight up .. considering Marciano was a face first, aggressive, balls to the wall fighter who never took a back step in his career , who won by chasing down and grinding down his opponents , how in the hell is he going to meet Tua in ring certer and beat him when Tua was much bigger, stronger, faster, harder hitting and had a far better proven chin to boot ? It's a fantasy. What are you going on, his knocking out Lee Savold or Rex Layne or ancient Joe Louis ? The Louis that fought Marciano would have likely been KO'ed in one round by Tua ...

It's all aboit the match up ..

[Tuaman]

Well the thing was Tua was gasping for air way before any bodyshots, I don't recall Tua being badly hurt by bodyshots at all I thought it was more a case of him not being conditioned, chasing Byrd around and tiring. A prime Tua, the Tua that set punchstat records against Ibeaubuchi would not be gassing like this.

I agree. Tua was shot by the time he got to Chris Bryd. His weight had ballooned, he was slower, and he was a one trick pony at this time--only hoping to land big left hooks.

After the 4th round, the announcers showed how Tua failed to cut off the ring against Bryd. There were so many times when he just let Bryd spin himself out of trouble when Tua had him cornered. He allowed Lennox Lewis to escape, too. There were times when David had Lewis cornered, and threw nothing, so Lewis wiggled out of harm's way. Prime Tua didn't make these mistakes.

Rocky Marciano had a harder punch than Bryd, so his body punches would do more damage. He wouldn't hit and run the way Bryd did, though. Rocky would be standing right there to get countered.

And, as Powerpuncher mentioned, Tua's conditioning affected him greatly. He was gaining weight, which affected his stamina and speed. He was out of breath much quicker than he should have been.

[choklab]

You are wrong. Boxing is about styles .. A beats B, B beats C does not mean A beats C ... the question is not if Marciano was a better fighter or a better pound for pound fighter but who wins straight up .. considering Marciano was a face first, aggressive, balls to the wall fighter who never took a back step in his career , who won by chasing down and grinding down his opponents , how in the hell is he going to meet Tua in ring certer and beat him when Tua was much bigger, stronger, faster, harder hitting and had a far better proven chin to boot ? It's a fantasy. What are you going on, his knocking out Lee Savold or Rex Layne or ancient Joe Louis ? The Louis that fought Marciano would have likely been KO'ed in one round by Tua ...

It's all aboit the match up ..


I think you are over simplifying things.

If all marciano had was that he was a face first balls to the wall fighter who ground down his opponents you would be right. but he was more than that. had to be to do what he did.

If I had of been around even I could not pick marciano against any of the great fighters #1 contenders that he beat because going into those fights I would have agreed with your assesment but because he kept winning, kept doing it at an elite level (that tua never did) I accept he must have been special.

I never warmed to lennox lewis either until it was all over but now I accept that he was a top ten all time great because the record stands up. LEWIS also had a special edge that you have to accept.

Marciano had a lot more about him, he just kept finding a way to win and he retired before a decline set in which means it is hard to asses his real weakness. It kind of proves that he was like all the real great ones who were nigh on unbeatable (in spite of the odds) at their best. He earned that by cleaning out a division.

we can be clever after the evant and try to spot what it was that he had but I dont think it was that evident at the time. He just had it. Marciano was always going to be (for a time) up there with the best.

For that reason alone rocky kicks ass agaisnt anyone but peak ATG fighters. It is a special level That he earned.

[PetethePrince]

Well the thing was Tua was gasping for air way before any bodyshots, I don't recall Tua being badly hurt by bodyshots at all I thought it was more a case of him not being conditioned, chasing Byrd around and tiring. A prime Tua, the Tua that set punchstat records against Ibeaubuchi would not be gassing like this. Whats more because Rocky would fight him toe-toe he would not have to chase Rocky around the ring. A very different match up

I disagree. Well you may have a point conditioning wise, I saw Tua visibly bothered and even backing up at times from body shots. I just went to watch some clips and the Showtime announcers go "Tua coming off a training camp that was like a boot camp he told us."

The thought of crouching against a smaller man just isn't a particularly good idea as the taller Marciano would actually be coming down to Tua's punch range, making it easier for Tua to land. Marciano's advantage at close quarters of having the short arms would not be an advantage here as Tua was probably an even shorter puncher. Marciano may be in the perculiar situation of fighting on the back foot, looking to roll and scord right counters

How tall is Tua? Tua does fight a bit more upright though.

Marciano can fight in the pocket, side-stepping, and swarming while rolling. he did it effectively against Layne. The thing is, there's no way Tua is the better shorter puncher. And Marciano's punch variation is much much better.

[SuzieQ49]

The Louis that fought Marciano would have likely been KO'ed in one round by Tua ...


Possibly...but Louis also had better skills than fighters like fres oquendo, hasim rahman, oleg maskaev who all took tua many rounds while giving him a boxing lesson. If Louis stayed on the outside, jabbed, and boxed tua(which is very likely)..he could outpoint tua. Louis still had a very good jab in his late 30s. 1947 Joe Louis? Tua would get knocked out. Louis was a big guy then, and his firepower was still lethal in both fists. Prime 1935 Joe Louis? Tua gets iced early.

[lufcrazy]

So beating 2 lineal HW Champs, 1 WBC Champ, 1 WBA champ, making a total of 4 champs and numerous top contenders, yet he isn't an elite HW?

Rocky isn't reaching an ATG status in the 90-00s against Lennox Lewis either

He is certainly not elite level.

This isn't the debate, noone in their right minds counts tua as elite.

The debate is pretty much "assuming they both stand and trade, who is the last man standing"

Personally I pick rocky, out of ten tua might get lucky a couple of times but rocky would have to be favoured.

[choklab]

Possibly...but Louis also had better skills than fighters like fres oquendo, hasim rahman, oleg maskaev who all took tua many rounds while giving him a boxing lesson. If Louis stayed on the outside, jabbed, and boxed tua(which is very likely)..he could outpoint tua. Louis still had a very good jab in his late 30s. 1947 Joe Louis? Tua would get knocked out. Louis was a big guy then, and his firepower was still lethal in both fists. Prime 1935 Joe Louis? Tua gets iced early.


TOTALY AGREE. :good tua has no business being mentioned in the same sentance as joe louis and rocky marciano.

People forget that however washed up joe louis was from the prowess he had way back in his peak the guy WAS STILL cleaning out the division as it stood in 1950.

Old joe Louis was higher in the ratings than marciano and the man to beat to get to the title. HAD louis retirted after beating bivins - a great fighter - people would call rocky a bum for avoiding LOUIS. Bivins was billed as the interim heavyweight champion during the war!

Its not likie louis was where ali was when holmes fought ali. Louis was not what he was but earned his rating at that time by beating rated fighters. who in the hell did ali beat to fight holmes? or who did holmes beat to fight tyson?

OLEG MASKIEV? fres oquendo? give me a break! neither would get past savold.

[The Mongoose]

If Tua was in the same condition as the 50s fighters, he would only be a 200-210 lb.

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[The Mongoose]

Possibly...but Louis also had better skills than fighters like fres oquendo, hasim rahman, oleg maskaev who all took tua many rounds while giving him a boxing lesson. If Louis stayed on the outside, jabbed, and boxed tua(which is very likely)..he could outpoint tua. Louis still had a very good jab in his late 30s. 1947 Joe Louis? Tua would get knocked out. Louis was a big guy then, and his firepower was still lethal in both fists. Prime 1935 Joe Louis? Tua gets iced early.

The Louis of the Marciano fight would have outboxed Tua to a decision.

[SuzieQ49]

The Louis of the Marciano fight would have outboxed Tua to a decision.

I think so. Especially in a ten round fight. Tua does have a live punchers chance though. Louis would really bust up tua with his telephone pole left jab.

[he grant]

I think so. Especially in a ten round fight. Tua does have a live punchers chance though. Louis would really bust up tua with his telephone pole left jab.

And his blazing speed and tremendous punching power .. don't forget that before you wake up !

[SuzieQ49]

And his blazing speed and tremendous punching power .. don't forget that before you wake up !

Louis doesn't need his blazing speed and punching power to beat Tua...He can do it with his Jab and boxing skills alone :good. Perhaps you should splash some water in your face and realize Tua was easily outboxed by average fighters.