Fighters make weight, weight does not make fighters

[TFFP]

I have always maintained weight, in the modern era, in reasonable cases where we're talking about single digit poundage is a VERY small part of the jigsaw when determining a fight.

I think it is now time to recognise this. That is twice in the last two Manny Pacquiao fights people have got it horribly wrong, and its mainly down to weight and weight alone. We should take heed of this. And also think about the many other great well-rounded fighters of this era, where once more weight has not proven the obstacle people have previously thought.

Skillsets and styles account for 95% of what is going to take place in a fight, and never more clearer than last night was the realisition that weight does not transfer into an advantage unless the matchup allows for it. In other words, many attributes come into play before weight is a factor, as a fighter has to be in a position to make use of any perceived physical advantage.

Discuss weight.

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[onourway]

Weight matters a lot.

Hence why we have weight divisions.

[TFFP]

We have too many weight divisions, most of them are horse shit as proven by the number of fighters that have scaled the weights in this era.

We have about 500 belts too, just because they are there it does not mean it is correct and not up for debate.

[Healy]

Hatton cannot move up 7 lbs -thats a law

Pacquaio can move up 40 lbs... - thats another law

[TFFP]

Hatton cannot move up 7 lbs -thats a law

Pacquaio can move up 40 lbs... - thats another law
:rofl:good

A stark demonstration that skillset is the majority of reasoning. Hatton fans made the epic mistake of making weight the primary concern. That is bound to end in disapointment. Did you ever hear them make a serious case for Hatton winning that did NOT include weight? It almost reminded me of the Maccarinelli fans that fought he'd beat Haye just because Haye was supposedly weight drained. So short sighted.

Anyway, this is not just about Hatton. I don't want that to be the primary focus, its just a very good example. I believe this to be the case across the board.

[Bonavena25]

I think far too much is made of weight as well and I'm surprised how many boxing writers and boxers themselves seem incapable of giving any other rationale for the fight picks, apart from weight. Emmanuel Steward being the latest legendary figure in boxing to overlook the glaringly obvious chasm in class between the two fighters and fall back on tired, cliche, logic.

When I look at a fight, weight comes way down in the list when it comes to picking a winner.

[El Cepillo]

Weight is a fantastic excuse for many things. Especially when you're trying to pick apart the resume of a fighter you happen to dislike. :lol:

[LHL]

What way would you cut the divisions down though just drop all the super and light crap :huh

[TFFP]

Weight is a fantastic excuse for many things. Especially when you're trying to pick apart the resume of a fighter you happen to dislike. :lol:
Like I said, I'd be happy if we just talk about the theory of weight, and how it affects a fight, and how much of a consideration is is compared to other attributes.

I was just using last night as an example, Manny Pacquiao as an example since this is the topic of the day, but by no means is it the only one.

[El Cepillo]

Like I said, I'd be happy if we just talk about the theory of weight, and how it affects a fight, and how much of a consideration is is compared to other attributes.

I was just using last night as an example, Manny Pacquiao as an example since this is the topic of the day, but by no means is it the only one.

I was talking in general, not specifically accusing anyone of anything.

[TheUzi]

If a fighter relys on strength and not skill then weight is a massive factor.

Only the best can move through the weights.....and only they,IMO, can be considered for P4P contention

[TFFP]

If a fighter relys on strength and not skill then weight is a massive factor.

Only the best can move through the weights.....and only they,IMO, can be considered for P4P contention
Well yes, its a massive factor for them losing the fight if they only rely on this and they step out of their division. It's also a massive factor in them losing if they fight a great boxer period. Weight is never a massive factor for winning a fight alone, not for me.

[onourway]

Hatton cannot move up 7 lbs -thats a law

Pacquaio can move up 40 lbs... - thats another law

Do shut up, you boring twat.

Pacquiao's a freak, a phenom, a guy who could retire as a top 10 ATG.

[TheUzi]

Well yes, its a massive factor for them losing the fight if they only rely on this and they step out of their division. It's also a massive factor in them losing if they fight a great boxer period. Weight is never a massive factor for winning a fight alone, not for me.

Agreed to a certain extent.

At the highest level,a man who solely relies on strength will be found out by a slick boxer.

Scott Harrison's another example I can think of. Very strong fighter who beat better boxers on pure strength and fitness but was badly exposed in some fights. If he ever stepped up to elite level,he'd have gotten embarrassed.

[trotter]

For me Rafael Marquez is better than Vazquez but that small natural size advantage Vazquez has makes all the difference... and it's only 4 lbs or so


If you take it to it's extreme, a heavyweight will beat a flyweight - so there is no doubt at all that size matters. The only debate is how much it matters when the weight difference gets marginal. But logically, it MUST still matter to a degree

If you are pitting the very best fighters on the planet against each other then just half a percent advantage can be decisive


The other factor is that some guys can put on the weight and make the requisite gains in power and durability, some can't. It's as simple as that.

[Decebal]

Nah...I disagree...90% of the time, weight is crucial, especially when you move up more than a couple of pounds...just look at Dawson and Adamek...would most people pick Dawson to beat Adamek at CW? I don't think so. He'd get KOed. At LHW, though, Dawson wins every time.

Another example is Jones Jr. Coming down in weight fast had a big effect on him...it changed him as a fighter.

When the gap in class is big, or the difference in weight is very small, and when you gain/lose the weight "right", then it doesn't make a difference...there are too many weight divisions anyway, it's true...but sometimes, a fighter like Pavlik is really better off fighting at 160 than at 170, and that's only a 6% difference. Weight matters...

...but a fighter like Haye is so much better than Maccarinelli...and Pacman was so much better than Ricky that it makes the weight disadvantage seem insignificant, when in fact, it was pretty significant, but overcompensated many times over by the talent/skills/strategy advantage.

There ain't many like Manny, though...that's for sure...if there were, many more fighters would be 3-4 division champs, especially now that there are so many more divisions than when there were only 8.

[TFFP]

For me Rafael Marquez is better than Vazquez but that small natural size advantage Vazquez has makes all the difference... and it's only 4 lbs or so


If you take it to it's extreme, a heavyweight will beat a flyweight - so there is no doubt at all that size matters. The only debate is how much it matters when the weight difference gets marginal. But logically, it MUST still matter to a degree

If you are pitting the very best fighters on the planet against each other then just half a percent advantage can be decisive


The other factor is that some guys can put on the weight and make the requisite gains in power and durability, some can't. It's as simple as that.
Interesting points.

I'd argue on the Izzy Marquez example that Vasquez actually has a very good style to upset Marquez's rhythm as a technical boxer. A good swarmer that isn't reckless can get to that type of fighter. You could be on point to an extent, but I'd say this is an example of what I'm talking about where styles and skillsets are so evenly matched that small details such as a little extra strength COULD perhaps make that difference. In a lot of cases fighters are not evenly matched, not at all, and people are misguided in believing a few lbs is going to uproot trees.

Of course I'm not going to suggest a flyweight fights a heavyweight and its a non-issue. I'm talking reasonable jumps in weight, a few lbs here and there at a time. However over the course of a career there is no doubt well rounded fighters can go further and further too.

[TFFP]

Peep peep!

[El Cepillo]

Due to recent conversations, I thought it would be a good time to bump this thread.

[Axl_Nose]

I have always maintained weight, in the modern era, in reasonable cases where we're talking about single digit poundage is a VERY small part of the jigsaw when determining a fight.

I think it is now time to recognise this. That is twice in the last two Manny Pacquiao fights people have got it horribly wrong, and its mainly down to weight and weight alone. We should take heed of this. And also think about the many other great well-rounded fighters of this era, where once more weight has not proven the obstacle people have previously thought.

Skillsets and styles account for 95% of what is going to take place in a fight, and never more clearer than last night was the realisition that weight does not transfer into an advantage unless the matchup allows for it. In other words, many attributes come into play before weight is a factor, as a fighter has to be in a position to make use of any perceived physical advantage.

Discuss weight.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Totally agree with TFFP here, the issue of weight is talked about as if it is the only defining intangible when your deciding who you think will win a fight, this is ridiculous because 'styles' make fights ..
Manny Pac is quite rightly getting all the plaudits for beating Hatton at 140 and De La Hoya at 147 but theres no way on earth i'd put money on Pac beating Mayweather, Cotto or Mosley at 147 just because he beat De La Hoya at that weight ..
Getting the right fights at the right times can improve your legacy from a very good one into a great one .. Manny Pac wouldnt have any chance against the truly great welters of all time like Robinson and Leonard but a natural 130 lbs fighter like Pac can beat plenty of 147 lbs fighters because his skills are superior even though he is the smaller man ....

[Vantage_West]

fighting guys of similar weitgh make it competative. being troughly the same size you are able to bully and use your speed.

when your sparring, you spar guys bigger and smaller than you and you use different methods of beating each as well as finding openings and figuring them out.

now when you fight/spar someone of your own size. it becomes unclear whether you should box or brawl. becuase both ways you still have an advantage.

a similar weight makes it much more competative. which is why i will always defend the junior and super classes. becuase some fighters just cant make a certain weight and be fightign fit while in a division above they are too small...terry norris being a perfect example.

hatton vs pac had the advantage in wieght and it showed for the early part of the round hatton was much bigger and was on top of him...now manny even though a puncher and a brawler has alot of slickness and speed to him. he doesnt run at you he keeps at a distance where he can land and bounces in and out while being ultra aggressive and being a southpaw makes it just as hard to adjust. hatton while clinching could man handle him. BUT it never got to that stage. everytime ricky came in thwack a right hook and left hands came a flying.

which is why the wieght didnt matter. due to style.

take fenech, the bigger he got the more feeble he became. his punches having little to no effect against a healthy azumah in the rematch and he wasnt doing anything to holliday.

put it this way if you run 100m race with someone, you may be 2 or 3 seconds infront or behind now in relativly speaking they both ran that distance at roughly the same time but still one guy had more. that second is the extra pound of weight that he can bring into the ring to bully you with that you dont have.


i do agree that weight is brought up way too much as a deciding factor. but for example cotto and clottey are massive fighters after the wiegh in and it might be hard for cotto to fight a guy who is just as big as him ....yah semme:blood miguel could prolly box his head off or land some heavy combos and body shots...but it will be tougher fight regardless.

[Guy]

Hatton cannot move up 7 lbs -thats a law

Pacquaio can move up 40 lbs... - thats another law


ZZZZzzzzz Pacquiao's now solid 140lb'r.

A real disciplinarian, a fucking superstar.

[Darni187]

Nah...I disagree...90% of the time, weight is crucial, especially when you move up more than a couple of pounds...just look at Dawson and Adamek...would most people pick Dawson to beat Adamek at CW? I don't think so. He'd get KOed. At LHW, though, Dawson wins every time.

Another example is Jones Jr. Coming down in weight fast had a big effect on him...it changed him as a fighter.

When the gap in class is big, or the difference in weight is very small, and when you gain/lose the weight "right", then it doesn't make a difference...there are too many weight divisions anyway, it's true...but sometimes, a fighter like Pavlik is really better off fighting at 160 than at 170, and that's only a 6% difference. Weight matters...

...but a fighter like Haye is so much better than Maccarinelli...and Pacman was so much better than Ricky that it makes the weight disadvantage seem insignificant, when in fact, it was pretty significant, but overcompensated many times over by the talent/skills/strategy advantage.

There ain't many like Manny, though...that's for sure...if there were, many more fighters would be 3-4 division champs, especially now that there are so many more divisions than when there were only 8.

Good post,

Just like to add it depends on which fighter is moving up/down weight, every fighters body reacts different to moving up/down weight. You will find fighters from lower weights have more effects on them when moving up weight mostly due to their height, size, frame. Also factors which should be looked at are how the weight is put on, or taken off.

Fighters who have great natural skills all round for example like Pacman weight is not as bigger factor on them than other fighters who are less skilled, great fighters learn to adjust their gameplan and tactics to combat the weight difference. It is very important I must stress how the weight is put on/off, hydration or dehydration can play a big role on performance.

[robpalmer135]

It would be intresting to see what would happen if same day weigh ins came back into play.

If you take the Welterweight Division, Williams, Cintron, Cotto, Margorito, Mosley, Berto all weigh 154+ on fight night, you can even add Hatton to the mix.

Mayweather will weigh 147 on fight night. People critasice him for not fighting top welters but he always has 7lbs+ agaisnt him in the other corner.