prime tyson vs prime marciano

[kolcade4]

who wins this bomb battle?

[kolcade4]

someone is getting there lights put out in this one, hmmm but who, even though i love the rock im going to go with tyson just because i dont think the rock could hang with a peak tysons power and speed.

[Silver]

tyson had too much firepower and was too athletic marciano, tyson knocks him out early

[Muchmoore]

Interesting fight. I immediately side toward Tyson by early stoppage, but Tyson thrived more against taller foes who jabbed. Against shorter foes he may have been a little bit more vulnerable because his style was built around slipping punches against taller foes throwing straight punches.

Marciano was short and fought small so that would play in his favor. He had no quit in him either and took a good shot, although it's hard to gauge his chin exactly due to there not being a big, top level puncher on his resume (not his fault, the guys he fought like Moore, Walcott, Charles were all beating the big guys at the time) Marciano also hit hard enough to get Tysons attention and if he can get Tyson in the late rounds his chances of winning go up exponentially.

I have to go with Tyson though. He has the big edge in speed, as well as the edge in power and chin. Marciano has a considerable edge in stamina but I don't see it helping him here, as he gets outgunned in the 4th round of a tough fight.

[Fedor Em]

This is a bad styles matchup for the Rock. Tyson outweighted him by 30 lbs. and was the faster of the two. The longer Rocky could survive the better chance he has but if I had to put money on it I have Tyson winning by early KO.

[Jack]

Tyson in the first or second round.

[FromWithin]

Tyson by stoppage.

[OBCboxer]

Interesting fight. I immediately side toward Tyson by early stoppage, but Tyson thrived more against taller foes who jabbed. Against shorter foes he may have been a little bit more vulnerable because his style was built around slipping punches against taller foes throwing straight punches.

Marciano was short and fought small so that would play in his favor. He had no quit in him either and took a good shot, although it's hard to gauge his chin exactly due to there not being a big, top level puncher on his resume (not his fault, the guys he fought like Moore, Walcott, Charles were all beating the big guys at the time) Marciano also hit hard enough to get Tysons attention and if he can get Tyson in the late rounds his chances of winning go up exponentially.

I have to go with Tyson though. He has the big edge in speed, as well as the edge in power and chin. Marciano has a considerable edge in stamina but I don't see it helping him here, as he gets outgunned in the 4th round of a tough fight.

Spot on. Tyson by stoppage.

[TKDfighterJoe]

modern training methodology for general athleticism are far superior to what they used to be. I'm sure the technical side of boxing developed as well. That and the beast that tyson was I give it to tyson

[JIm Broughton]

Prime for prime it's hard not to go with Tyson. Bigger and considerably faster with an edge in power as well. Plus Mike's chin has been hit by true heavy/super heavyweights while Marciano feasted on light heavies for the most part. Rocky's only chance would be in dragging Mike into the later rounds and taking advantage of his superior stamina but could Rocky survive an early assault by Mike? Tyson is bigger, faster and more powerful than anything Rocky ever faced. Plus Mike is about the same height so Rocky's crouch wouldn't be that strategically effective. It just wouldn't be that hard for Mike to find him. I love the Rock but he's in over his head in this one I'm afraid.

[kolcade4]

modern training methodology for general athleticism are far superior to what they used to be. I'm sure the technical side of boxing developed as well. That and the beast that tyson was I give it to tyson
what if rock had the same assets that tyson had, aka everything you mentione?

[MrMarvel]

Tyson was faster, stronger, bigger, and more skilled. This fight probably doesn't go more than a round. Four rounds at the most. Tysons busts Marciano up bad.

[SuzieQ49]

although it's hard to gauge his chin exactly due to there not being a big, top level puncher on his resume (not his fault, the guys he fought like Moore, Walcott, Charles were all beating the big guys at the time)

Its arguebable, but he did fight 6'2 214lb # 2 rated Joe Louis, and Louis still had plenty of power in his left hook which landed flush on marciano a couple times. Rock took it very well. I would consider Louis a big top level puncher, certainly on the Nino Valdez level. I don't care how old you are...if you were once the greatest puncher of all time, then you can still hit hard at 37. I wouldnt buy too much intp his lack of KO percentage, just because he lost his fight finishing combinations against young defensive oriented fighters did not mean he couldn't still hit hard with one punch. He knocked out BBC Heavyweight Champion granite chinned lee savold with 1 punch.


Btw, I agree with your analysis on tyson vs marciano. I like Tyson by TKO 4 but rocky really makes tyson work for it. I really do believe Rocky Marciano was one of the toughest fighters to knockout in history with his granite chin, and excellent recuperation powers. Only the best of the punchers like Louis and Tyson would stop the Rock.

[Russell]

I'd favor Tyson.

He wouldn't be at a disadvantage with Marciano and his love of elbowing either.

[Dempsey1238]

Or headbutts right?

[Seamus]

Will someone please tell me what the fuck "athletisism" means?

Is it not deductive reasoning that if one is proficient in an athletic endeavor they are possessed of this mythical asset? And the moreso they are proficient, the moreso they possess the selfsame?

[groove]

old louis never had the great peak SNAP in his punch. This SNAP had diminished and therefore the poor KO ratio as an old fighter. Best time Marciano coulda fought him - he's very lucky in that way. Tyson by early stoppage in this one - bigger and quicker.

[laxpdx]

If Tyson doesn't get Rocky out reasonably early, then Marciano will get him late. If Mike throws his best punches and doesn't KO Rocky, then it's liable to psychologically effect him as the fight wears on, while Rocky grows more confident and thus intensifies his attack. Honestly, I kind of like Marciano in this one. As powerful as Tyson is, Rocky had that look which basically said he was going to beat you one way or the other.

[Hydraulix]

It's hard to see Rocky getting knocked out, especially since it never happened. He just had this "unbeatable" aura about him. He always found a way to win, even when the fight was in jeopardy. (The first Walcott fight and the second Ezzard Charles fight are perfect examples.)

I'd give this one to Mike. Suppose Rocky could take Tyson's blows, we gotta remember that Rocky had a tendency to cut. Rocky would stand right in front of Mike, which isn't smart.

I'm certain that Mike would counter punch Rocky's wild swings and have him laying on his back very, very early in the fight. I don't see any way Rocky wins this. Tyson just has too many advantages here. (Speed, power, punching accuracy, size, etc)

Tyson wins by blowout early in the fight. But if Rocky could survive the first 4 rounds, (which I don't see happening) he's gonna knock Mike out.

[ripcity]

Marciano is basicly a cruiserweight and a very good one mabey even the best.
Tyson being a heavyweight is bigger and stronger. He is also faster than Marciano.
I like Tyson early in this match up. Marciano has a very good chin so I think he survives the first round or two. Marciano tends to be underrated as far as boxing skills goes, but I don't see him landing too many shots on Tyson who is one of the most elusive boxers at heavyweight. Tyson also has a very good chin himself. Tyson also dose not waste punches so there is no real chance that he is going to punch himself out. If Tyson can't knockout Marciano yes he might get frustrated but he will still win a clear cut victory on points. look at the fights in which Tyson was "frustrated" in his prime than look at the score cards.

[SuzieQ49]

This SNAP had diminished and therefore the poor KO ratio as an old fighter.

No I believe his poor KO ratio was due to him fighting Young ranked defensive oriented fighters who stayed away from him. Jimmy Bivins was too defensive and had a great chin, a man like that doesnt get knocked out. Cesar Brion was Young, ranked, had a rock chin, and was defensive. thats hard fighter to knock out. Omelio Agramonte was Young great footwork and very defense, another hard fighter to knock out. Louis still managed to catch Agramonte with a right hand and put him down for a 9 count in the rematch. Everyone who stood in front of him in 1950-1951 outside of Rocky Marciano got knocked out. That includes Pat Valentino and Nino Valdez in exhibition matches. Louis always had natural power in his fists, power that doesnt suddenly go away...In terms of brute power...Louis punches at 6'2 215lb were going to have alot of effect on Sub 200lb men.

[MRBILL]

Tyson was wicked and on fire in '86 thru 1989..................... Between his title winning KO over Berbick up to his one hook shot KO over Carl "The Lie" Williams, Tyson was a destroyer........... Tyson by early KO over "The Rock."

MR.BILL

[Muchmoore]

No I believe his poor KO ratio was due to him fighting Young ranked defensive oriented fighters who stayed away from him. Jimmy Bivins was too defensive and had a great chin, a man like that doesnt get knocked out. Cesar Brion was Young, ranked, had a rock chin, and was defensive. thats hard fighter to knock out. Omelio Agramonte was Young great footwork and very defense, another hard fighter to knock out. Louis still managed to catch Agramonte with a right hand and put him down for a 9 count in the rematch. Everyone who stood in front of him in 1950-1951 outside of Rocky Marciano got knocked out. That includes Pat Valentino and Nino Valdez in exhibition matches. Louis always had natural power in his fists, power that doesnt suddenly go away...In terms of brute power...Louis punches at 6'2 215lb were going to have alot of effect on Sub 200lb men.

Louis was still a good puncher at 37 but he wasn't a great one.
My point was Marcianos chin was never tested against a big, hard puncher, like a Lewis, Ruddock, Foreman etc.

He proved he had a solid chin but how solid is the only question, was it top 10 of all time or top 35?

[SuzieQ49]

like a Lewis, Ruddock, Foreman etc.


I agree there!

He proved he had a solid chin but how solid is the only question, was it top 10 of all time or top 35?

Good Point. we don't know. I always thought judging from the Layne and Louis footage compared to Moore and Walcott footage that marciano was more susceptible to fast pinpoint shots that came out of nowhere, than heavy handed club blows that marciano was durable enough to take. Since Tyson had a combination of both power and Pinpoint accuracy, it would spell bad news for the Rock..but rocky was a better inside fighter than mike with his leverage and he would get off a couple solid blows on mikes noggin and make mike really push for this well earned victory.

[leverage]

walcott and moore couldn't finish what they started but tyson would. Too much speed and power for marciano to contend with. Tyson by ko in 2.

[PH|LLA]

Marciano breaks Tyson down and knocks him out and loses surprisingly few rounds

[SuzieQ49]

walcott and moore couldn't finish what they started


Just curious what did they start? a Flash knockdown for 2 seconds? hardly anything to buzzz about

[MRBILL]

I just watched Moore beat up Jimmy Slade over 10 rds in ST. Louis from '52.... Moore and Slade both weighed at or near 180 pounds..... Moore schooled Slade for 10 rds..... Slade was game, but too green to mess with Moore........... Archie Moore was ripped like a juicer, but I know he was clean......... Moore was great..... But his fighting range really was best suited between 175 to 190 pounds at best..... Moore, like Bob Foster, would not do well with big heavies at 200 + pounds........ I'm not talkin' bout a "Lummox" heavyweight either; I'm talkin' bout a man with skills........ Peace...

MR.BILL

[guilalah]

I'll side with Tyson if Marciano is time machined into 1988; Tyson born into Rocky's day, it could go either way.

[Minotauro]

I'd favour Tyson via early stoppage.

[djanders]

War! Marciano would stay close and win, by middle to late round stoppage...in my opinion. :bbb

[hhascup]

I agree there!

Good Point. we don't know. I always thought judging from the Layne and Louis footage compared to Moore and Walcott footage that marciano was more susceptible to fast pinpoint shots that came out of nowhere, than heavy handed club blows that marciano was durable enough to take. Since Tyson had a combination of both power and Pinpoint accuracy, it would spell bad news for the Rock..but rocky was a better inside fighter than mike with his leverage and he would get off a couple solid blows on mikes noggin and make mike really push for this well earned victory.

War! Marciano would stay close and win, by middle to late round stoppage...in my opinion. :bbb

I keep telling you that Rocky stated many times that he needed room to throw his punches.

Again, here's an article that one of his own sparring partners stated the same.

Heavyweight: Toxey Hall: He had a piece of the Rock ... Every Day:

By Pete Ehrmann

Toxey Hall thought his boxing career had been TKO'd when he walked into Chicago's Midwest Boxing Gym one day in the spring of 1953. Although he had local Golden Gloves and Catholic Youth Organization titles on his resume, and had gone 7-2-2 as a professional boxer the year before, win or lose, Hall's face swelled up like a beach ball. It didn't take much for it to happen, either.

"I could blow my nose and swell up," said Hall, now 72. "After a while, I decided boxing was not my thing to make a living."

Born in Prentiss, Mississippi, Hall grew up helping his scharecropper father on their 180-acre farm. Good at football and baseball, he had no particular interest in boxing until he joined the Army in 1946 and had several bouts. When he was discharged, Hall decided to settle in Chicago, and began working in a cardboard box factory. On the second floor of the building was the CYO Gym, whose director was Tony Zale, the 1940s middleweight champion. Hall began working out under Zale' s tutelage.

"What really got me interested," Hall recalled, "was in 1950, when I won the Joe Louis Sportsman Trophy in the National Golden Gloves tournament, and I started getting calls. People started treating me like I was the heavyweight champion of the world. I had no intention of doing anything in boxing. I was just trying to make a living. But these guys were so nice and good to me, and finally talked me into going pro."

His manager was Ike Bernstein, who also had hard-punching Chicago light heavyweight contender Bob Satterfield. Satterfield's big drawback as a fighter was a glass jaw; Hall's was sensitive facial tissue. After fights, he sometimes had difficulty seeing out of his swollen eyes. A doctor told him there was nothing that could be done for it, and warned that Hall's vision might eventually become impaired if he fought more than once or twice a year.

So on that day in '53 at the Midwest Gym, Hall was just a box-maker trying to stay in shape when his life was changed by the appearance of the heavyweight champion of the world.

Rocky Marciano had won the title on September 22, 1952, by knocking out
Jersey Joe Walcott in the 13th round. The undefeated Marciano was scheduled to defend the title in a rematch with Walcott at Chicago Stadium on May 15. The champion brought three sparring partners with him to the gym, and in short order each of them went off in search of medical attention.

"Marciano had this right hand punch called 'Suzy-Q,' and he would bang up everybody's ribs," Hall said.

Looking for additional fodder, Marciano's trainer, Charley Goldman, spotted the 5' 11", 195-pound Hall and asked if he would be interested in sparring with the champion. Hall didn't hesitate before agreeing.

"I was a young man, and I wasn't even thinking that I was going to be 72 years old one day," Hall recalled with a laugh.

He wasn't even fazed when Marciano's introductory remarks cast that prospect in some doubt.

"Toxey, I don't mean any harm," said the champion who had knocked out 38 of his 42 opponents, "but everybody in the ring is my enemy. I don't pull no punches. Anybody who gets in the ring with me, even my friends, I'm knocking them out if I can."

"That was pretty nice of you to tell me that," Hall answered genially, "so I won't pull no punches, either."

Four rounds later, Hall was back in the fight game full-time.

"I love the way you work," Marciano told him. "Will you come to training camp with me?"

For the next three years, the Chicago fighter was paid $100 a week to help prepare Marciano-who knocked out Walcott in the first round of their second match-for five additional title defenses, and accompanied him on exhibitions around the country and overseas.

"I stayed with him until he retired," said Hall. "It was really a pleasure.

A pleasure, courting the dreaded Suzy-Q five days a week?

"That first time I was skeptical," admitted Hall. "But I would've got into the ring with the heavyweight champion of the world, even if I knowed he would knock me out. It was a thrill-and after that it was just like drinking water. He hit me good, but I don't remember him hurting me. One time he hit me above the eye, and it busted open."

To protect his vulnerable face, Marciano gave Hall one of the specially designed headgear the champion wore.

"Most of the sparring partners would get hurt in their rib cage and wore football pads to protect them," said Hall. "But for some reason, that was my toughest part, and it didn't bother me much.

"The thing is that Rocky couldn't do much if you crowded him. But if you gave him room, he'd knock you out. If he hurt me a little bit, I'd turn and run."

The one slight exception was when they were preparing for Marciano's defense against England's Don Cockell in San Francisco on May 16, 1955. Before they got into the ring to spar, Hall mentioned that the champion was carrying his right hand low and exposing his chin.

"Why don't you just hit me then?" Marciano challenged.

So, recalled Hall, "I hit him with a left hook, and down he went."

The press was there, and the incident got worldwide coverage. Marciano said nothing at the time, but the next day when they were doing roadwork together, the champion stopped and said, "Toxey, you son of a bitch, you knocked me down in front of all those guys."

But Marciano wasn't really upset. "We laughed about it," Hall said. "He liked rough stuff."

Outside the ropes, Marciano treated Hall like a brother. "He was a fantastic guy," the former sparring partner said. "We got so close, like two peas in a pod. It was really a blessing to be with him."

Hall not only gained fame as the champion's chief sparring partner, but "every time somebody gave Rocky a gift, there was one for me, too. I got all kinds of sports coats and rings."

One of Hall's most prized possessions are the cufflinks he received from Marciano after golfing great Ben Hogan presented The Rock with two sets of the specially designed pieces of jewelry.

Marciano biographers have painted him as the kind of person who felt about a dollar the way Charlton Heston does about his rifle-the only way to get it away from him is to claw it from his cold, dead hand. But that's not the Marciano that Hall knew.

"He never carried no money in his pocket," Hall acknowledged. "We'd be out there shooting dice, and he'd say, 'Let me have a dollar.' But he never forgot my birthday or my wife's birthday."

Hall often received generous bonuses, he said, including checks for $1,500 at Christmas.

In addition to his sparring duties, Hall fought on the undercards of Marciano's title defenses, and he also augmented his income by taking bouts between training camps. From 1953 to '56, Hall met some of boxing's best names, such as light heavyweight champion Archie Moore and future l75-pound champion Harold Johnson, and heavyweight contenders John Holman and Bob Baker. But without Marciano's special headgear to protect his features, Hall lost as often as he won, and finished with a 13-13-4 (7) record.

His biggest victory came on November 14, 1955, when he won a decision over former heavyweight champion Ezzard Charles in Providence, Rhode Island, though afterward Hall said his head was "swole up like two heads."

[kmcc505]

Tyson takes him out. The Rock was great, though--just a tough style for him to face. He'd do better against a guy like Larry Holmes.