How does Jack Johnson vs the best 160 or 168'er go?

[ChrisPontius]

Whether you think that's Monzon, Hagler, Greb, Jones, Robinson, an early version of Tunney, Kessler, Calzaghe, Walker, etc; take your pick. How does it go? 15 rounds.



We already know he beat Langford* and Ketchel fairly easily. However, while the talent of these men cannot be doubted, they fought in an era when boxing was still in a transitional period of bare knuckle style to gloved, and it showed. How would the more modern great middleweights do?



* In Langford's defence, he was only 154lbs for this bout, but Johnson at 180lbs was not at his optimum weight yet either.

[robert ungurean]

Off the top of my head I do think Tunney beats Johnson.

[McGrain]

15 rounds is a long, long time to be in their with Johnson. Over the ten round distance someone like Conn might be real trouble for him but imagine the price Johnson exacts when he corners these smaller men.

None, I guess, would beat him over the longer distance.

[MRBILL]

I can't see any of these dudes having much of a chance against Johnson...........

I can picture Gene Tunney jabbing and circling, but also not scoring all that much....... Johnson too good at defense / parrying punches........

Same goes for prime-time Royal Jones, too.... Jones lands one or two punches at a time, but misses punches three and four....... Johnson much stronger than Jones, pushes Jones all around, when Jones ain't running his ass off from Johnson.........

Jack Johnson is pretty goddamn solid.......... :bbb:deal

MR.BILL:hat

[Spunik]

how bout Johnson verus Holyfield or Spinks

[Russell]

I see him slaughtering most of them. He was one of the strongest heavyweights ever and overpowered the likes of Jim Jeffries. He loved to work inside and really, what would anyone of them do if he wanted to get on the inside against them and manhandle them?

[ChrisPontius]

15 rounds is a long, long time to be in their with Johnson. Over the ten round distance someone like Conn might be real trouble for him but imagine the price Johnson exacts when he corners these smaller men.

None, I guess, would beat him over the longer distance.

How competitive do you see them being?

For instance, i don't have the full fight (i doubt anyone does), but the rounds of Johnson vs Ketchel i've seen are pretty one-sided. Then there's that mysterious knockdown, of course, and the possibility that it was not on the level.

[dmt]

i really dont think that Monzon or Hagler would stand a shot given that they never stepped out of their weight. With Greb its impossible to tell due to no film available

[mcvey]

Whether you think that's Monzon, Hagler, Greb, Jones, Robinson, an early version of Tunney, Kessler, Calzaghe, Walker, etc; take your pick. How does it go? 15 rounds.



We already know he beat Langford* and Ketchel fairly easily. However, while the talent of these men cannot be doubted, they fought in an era when boxing was still in a transitional period of bare knuckle style to gloved, and it showed. How would the more modern great middleweights do?



* In Langford's defence, he was only 154lbs for this bout, but Johnson at 180lbs was not at his optimum weight yet either.

Langford weighed 156 to Johnsons 185.
It might be more interestring to ponder how that Langford ,who had engaged in 56 fights would have done against the men you mention?

[Mendoza]

Whether you think that's Monzon, Hagler, Greb, Jones, Robinson, an early version of Tunney, Kessler, Calzaghe, Walker, etc; take your pick. How does it go? 15 rounds.


We already know he beat Langford* and Ketchel fairly easly However, while the talent of these men cannot be doubted, they fought in an era when boxing was still in a transitional period of bare knuckle style to gloved, and it showed. How would the more modern great middleweights do?

* In Langford's defence, he was only 154lbs for this bout, but Johnson at 180lbs was not at his optimum weight yet either.


Langford was not only light, and fighting a heavyweight, he was also much shorter. It is still debatable if Langford knocked Johnson down, as Ketchel did. I would also throw Choynski's name into the mix, who KO'd Johnson. On the surface it appears that the hard punching middles to supper middles could score a Kd or even a Knock out. But none of the names you listed were really big punchers. They were mostly very good boxers.

A key fight to look at is the O'Brien fight. O'Brien was a skilled boxer mover, and could out fight. Fight reports indicate that O'Brien who was likely past his best in 1909 was the better in a six round affair.

It is fair to say that Jack Johnson was 1-1-1 vs Choynski, Ketchel and O'Brien. Losing to a supper middle and getting out boxed one should be viewed objectively, and pretty much DQ Johnson from rating anywhere in the top ten in a head to head sense at heavyweight, but that is another thread.

The topic of the thread is how would Tunney, Jones, Clazaghe, Greb, Monzon, and Walker do vs Johnson.

I think Tunney would out point Johnson. Clazaghe and Roy Jones would also have a good chance.

I think Monzon, Kessler, Walker were not fast or strong enough, and its tough to give up speed, size, and strength. I think Johnson would defeat them, though I would esxpect Monzon to have his share of positive moments in the fight.

Robinson and Greb were very fast, but they were too small, and would lack power at heavyweight.

[ChrisPontius]

Mendoza, Greb was more proven than any of those (outside of Jones perhaps) against guys of 170-180lbs, how can you just dismiss him as "too small"?

[MRBILL]

i really dont think that Monzon or Hagler would stand a shot given that they never stepped out of their weight. With Greb its impossible to tell due to no film available


I hear dat, dude...........:yep

However, with Harold Greb, I have read a lot and looked over his pro record..... That guy was active and he liked to fight.... Plus, for a middleweight, he had huge biceps for the 1920s.......

Though Greb was wild and crazy who was also vunerable to counter shots, due to a poor attitude of defense.... This is what I have read and studied on "Grebbermeister." ALSO! Greb was not a wicked puncher..... Lotsa' fights went the distance.....

I gotta' assume Jack Johnson hammers Greb to the floor inside of 15 rds........

MR.BILL:deal:thumbsup:hat:bbb

[markedwardscott]

Mickey Walker gave a good account of himself against top heavyweights and may have given Johnson a good fight, but not beat him.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[Mendoza]

Mendoza, Greb was more proven than any of those (outside of Jones perhaps) against guys of 170-180lbs, how can you just dismiss him as "too small"?

My reason is two fold.

Greb was about 5'9", which is short. But it is not only height here. I think Greb is at a style disadvantage here as well.

Greb's style was to in-fight a lot. Johnson was a very good clincher vs supper middle weight types, and had a nice uppercut.

When you tally it all up, Greb is at a disadvantage in style, size, and strength here.

I think the super middle weight types that could be Johnson were the speedy boxers who preferred to jab, move and out fight, or the bigger puncher types. Greb really does not fit either mold. I think Greb would have to out work Johnson, which is possible, but again based on Greb's style Johnson might put the clamps on him.

[GPater11093]

Mendoza you feeling ok your picking Johnson to win a fight

[Longhhorn71]

Prime Jack Johnson is about the same size of Sonny Liston. (210 lbs)

Plus he can box, has a great defense, has power and a "kick-ass attitude".

He would just beat up any little guy moving up from 160-168 lbs.

[Mendoza]

Mendoza you feeling ok your picking Johnson to win a fight

I'm a realist and my picks are chiefly based on what I think would happen. If the match up is in Johnson's favor, I'll pick him and explain why.

I have seen all the films on Johnson. His defense is greatly over rated. He gets tagged and out boxed from the outside. I still think Johnson's best stuff is on the inside, where he could use his clinching, uppercuts, short arms, and brute strength to his advantage.

I watched 20 rounds of a slightly past his prime Johnson vs a medium level contender in Frank Moran. Moran was the better on the outside, and was barely edged on my card. Fight reports say O'Brien's had no trouble landing his fast jab on Johnson and was the better by a shade in their 6 round match. And Battling Jim Johnson landed plenty too, and was in fact robbed into a draw. Even Willard who really was not terribly skilled landed plenty from the outside. Where is this great defense???

I believe Johnson's defense was only half complete. He had good punch anticipation, good glove blocking, and quick reflexes, but he was too stationary with his feet, and had a low guard. He also liked to lean back a lot, which works if you have a few inches on a guy ( like he had on Burns, Ketchel or Langford ), but at 6'1" really won't work well on a guys close to his size or bigger.

[Mendoza]

Prime Jack Johnson is about the same size of Sonny Liston. (210 lbs)

Plus he can box, has a great defense, has power and a "kick-ass attitude".

He would just beat up any little guy moving up from 160-168 lbs.

Liston was much more impressive from a tale of the tape standpoint.

[mcvey]

I'm a realist and my picks are chiefly based on what I think would happen. If the match up is in Johnson's favor, I'll pick him and explain why.

I have seen all the films on Johnson. His defense is greatly over rated. He gets tagged and out boxed from the outside. I still think Johnson's best stuff is on the inside, where he could use his clinching, uppercuts, short arms, and brute strength to his advantage.

I watched 20 rounds of a slightly past his prime Johnson vs a medium level contender in Frank Moran. Moran was the better on the outside, and was barely edged on my card. Fight reports say O'Brien's had no trouble landing his fast jab on Johnson and was the better by a shade in their 6 round match. And Battling Jim Johnson landed plenty too, and was in fact robbed into a draw. Even Willard who really was not terribly skilled landed plenty from the outside. Where is this great defense???

I believe Johnson's defense was only half complete. He had good punch anticipation, good glove blocking, and quick reflexes, but he was too stationary with his feet, and had a low guard. He also liked to lean back a lot, which works if you have a few inches on a guy ( like he had on Burns, Ketchel or Langford ), but at 6'1" really won't work well on a guys close to his size or bigger.

Johnson weighed 225lbs for the Moran fight he was 17bs above his best weight.Johnson was 37 when he fought Willard.Johnson broke his left arm against Jim Johnson ,,wonder why you did not mention these facts?:lol:

[McGrain]

How competitive do you see them being?.

Not very.

Johnson was famous for bullying the small heavyweights he fought. And he hurt people. That mauling, clinching style, the uppercut, the strength advantage, he was a hugely strong human being, I think it's a horrific match up for smaller men to be honest. I understand why you've made the thread, but just because smaller guys hung around against him doesn't, in my honest opinion, make them more likely to beat Johnson than Tyson (who blasts them out). I know that is a little contradictory given that a live opponent is more dangerous than an unconcsious one, but as well as his style advantage, we've seen Johnson absorb a punch from the biggest hitter around that weight on film (possibly) in Ketchel and maybe the biggest hitter around that weight not on film (possibly) in Langford and carry on regardless.

That's why I mentioned Conn. Expert judge of range, very quick, fast hands, punches in points-gathering combinations, great general - but the toll that will be exacted when he is cornered is sapping to belief, stamina and durablity. Conn has all of these, but over 15 he gets bashed up, badly.

[McGrain]

Mendoza you feeling ok your picking Johnson to win a fight

:lol:

[dmt]

Mendoza you feeling ok your picking Johnson to win a fight
:lol::lol::lol::rofl

[mcvey]

:lol::lol::lol::rofl

Mendoza is famously objective and impartial when discussing Jack Johnson.:D

[Mendoza]

Johnson weighed 225lbs for the Moran fight he was 17bs above his best weight.Johnson was 37 when he fought Willard.Johnson broke his left arm against Jim Johnson ,,wonder why you did not mention these facts?:lol:

And Moran would not be a top 20 heavyweight today. Johnson was a little heavy ( 15 pounds over his prime weight by your standards ) , but had enough stamina to go 20. Face it, Johnson's skills vs a fringe contender were just enough.:deal

Jim " battling Johnson " beat up Jack Johnson. He won more rounds, and had Johnson nearly out when Jack Johnson quit. The Cyber Boxing Zone reports it was a 20 round fight, not 10. The decision somehow was a draw even though one judge had Battling Jim in the lead, and the other two had no comment! If there was any justice Jim battling Johnson is the new champ via TKO. At the very least Jack Johnson could have given Jim a rematch to clear his good name, but he didn't. In fact the nation of France wanted to strip Johnson as champion, and give the belt to the winner of Langford vs Jeanette.

Back to the point of this thread. How does Johnson do vs the best middles or supper middles. It is fact that Jack Johnson was 1-1-1 vs middle to supper middles in Choynski, Ketchel, and O'Brien. In these three fights the great Jack Jonson was knocked out by one man, suffered a knocked down by the other, and , jabbed by the other.

How do you like those facts, Mcvey?

I have fight reports if you want to read them.:D

[SuzieQ49]

Face it, Johnson's skills vs a fringe contender were just enough

Denver Ed Martin, Sam Langford, Sam McVea, and Joe Jeanette were more than just fringe contenders and Jack Johnson went a combined 10-1 against these men.

[Seamus]

Whether you think that's Monzon, Hagler, Greb, Jones, Robinson, an early version of Tunney, Kessler, Calzaghe, Walker, etc; take your pick. How does it go? 15 rounds.


Tough match-ups for the little guys here. Johnson was comparatively much stronger, though I do not think he comes close to modern heavies in that department.

Jones, Robinson and Tunney I would pick quite easily over Johnson.

The rest I would favor Johnson with Calzaghe and Hagler having the best chances.

[janitor]

Tough match-ups for the little guys here. Johnson was comparatively much stronger, though I do not think he comes close to modern heavies in that department.


It is probably safe to say that Johnson was one of the strongest if not the strongest heavyweights under 210 lbs of all time.

[SuzieQ49]

It is probably safe to say that Johnson was one of the strongest if not the strongest heavyweights under 210 lbs of all time.

Agreed. Calzaghe would get tossed around like a ragdoll in the clinches and knocked out

[Rock0052]

If we're talking prime Johnson, I don't see any of them winning. If we're talking about a green Johnson (Not like the Jolly Green Giant), then it'd get interesting. No idea who the one would be to win, but Tunney would be at the top of my list to take care of a still-learning and not entirely physically developed JJ.

[Seamus]

It is probably safe to say that Johnson was one of the strongest if not the strongest heavyweights under 210 lbs of all time.

Because he pushed around middleweights, alcoholics and washed up ex-fat men?

[Rico Spadafora]

It would take someone with stamina and a Chin. Johnson held and grappled just like Ruiz does today that could really wear a smaller guy out over 15 rounds.

I say maybe Billy Conn and Gene Tunney. I know Jake LaMotta could last the 15 but his face would probably look like a mess.

[Mendoza]

It would take someone with stamina and a Chin. Johnson held and grappled just like Ruiz does today that could really wear a smaller guy out over 15 rounds.

I say maybe Billy Conn and Gene Tunney. I know Jake LaMotta could last the 15 but his face would probably look like a mess.

Conn is an interesting point as he was under 170 pounds when he gave Joe Louis all he could handle.

[SuzieQ49]

Because he pushed around middleweights, alcoholics and washed up ex-fat men?


or the fact he dominated Sam Mcvea, who was coming off a knockout victory over top contender denver ed martin?


or winning a wide 15 round decision over a 26 year old joe jenette after jenette had made sam langford quit in 8 rounds?

or dominating, dropping, outclassing sam langford in 1906 right after sam langford decisioned a 27 year old joe jeanette..... making sam claim the only time he was ever licked was against jack johnson.

How about Jack Johnson dominating 6'6 Denver Ed Martin, when Martin was colored heavyweight champion and had been gauranteed a shot at the winner of jeffries-fitz II for the crown??

or dominating one of the best white heavyweights in the world top contender Al Kaufman, who was coming off some huge wins.

these men certainly dont fit the above descriptions

[SuzieQ49]

Because he pushed around middleweights, alcoholics and washed up ex-fat men?

Who exactley did Gene Tunney Push around? White Clowns, Washed up greats, or super middleweights. Your so high on Tunney. Lets hear it.

[Axl_Nose]

As i have Jack Johnson at number 3 in my all time Heavyweight list then i would give absolutely nobody at 160 - 168 a chance against him ..
The mythology surrounding Greb might lead some people to think he would have a chance but not for me, Greb was a unique, sensational fighter but Johnson is far too big and skilled for a guy that is a natural 160 fighter ..
Tunney beat Greb 4 times, Loughran beat Greb and i'd give Tunney and Loughran no chance in beating Johnson ..
For the record i'd give Dempsey and Marciano no chance in beating Johnson either .. To beat Johnson would take Ali or Holmes ....

[Axl_Nose]

Who exactley did Gene Tunney Push around? White Clowns, Washed up greats, or super middleweights. Your so high on Tunney. Lets hear it.

SuzieQ i think your a little harsh on Tunney .. He was a sensational 'thinking' fighter. Your right though, i cant think of any occasion when he 'pushed around' a fighter ..

Im quite a fan of Tunney to be honest because more often than not he is denigrated by boxing fans who love to eulogise about Jack Dempsey, i think thats a shame. Dempsey is such an icon that a lot of people want to rip apart the man who beat him ..
Dempsey is such an inferior fighter to Tunney, Johnson, Ali, Louis and Holmes to me . But i am endlessly fascinated in the way people are driven wild by guys like Tyson and Dempsey .. The dreamy mythology surrounding Dempsey and Tyson will never die even though both guys shouldnt ever be rated in the top 7 Heavys of all time ....

I would honestly take an early '90s Holyfield to beat any version of Dempsey, Tyson and Marciano .. He had trouble with Bowe because Bowe at that point was an ultra offensive, highly skilled fighter who had height and reach advantage .. Holyfield's skills, forward rhytm and slick combinations would take Dempsey, Rocky and Tyson for me ..

I realise that will be a totally unpopular opinion in here, knowing the kind of religious fervour there is for Marciano and Dempsey in Eastside 'Classic' .. But Holyfield should never be dismissed against guys that are of similar size ....

[Axl_Nose]

When i say Holyfield would take Tyson im talking of an '87 Tyson who many boxing fans believe to be indestructible .. I am fully aware Holy beat Tyson but the Tyson acolytes like to make endless excuses for him being defeated in '96 .... I think Holy would have taken a '87 Tyson ..

[Seamus]

or the fact he dominated Sam Mcvea, who was coming off a knockout victory over top contender denver ed martin?


or winning a wide 15 round decision over a 26 year old joe jenette after jenette had made sam langford quit in 8 rounds?

or dominating, dropping, outclassing sam langford in 1906 right after sam langford decisioned a 27 year old joe jeanette..... making sam claim the only time he was ever licked was against jack johnson.

How about Jack Johnson dominating 6'6 Denver Ed Martin, when Martin was colored heavyweight champion and had been gauranteed a shot at the winner of jeffries-fitz II for the crown??

or dominating one of the best white heavyweights in the world top contender Al Kaufman, who was coming off some huge wins.

these men certainly dont fit the above descriptions

mcvea was average, even langford alluded to this fact. A retreating fighter with one punch.

Joe Jeanette? Wasn't that the .500 fighter that ol' Arthur fought? I'm so impressed.

Ed Martin was big, no doubt, but not accomplished. Who was his greatest pelt? The aforementioned mediocre McVea? Sandy Ferguson? Victor MacClagen? At least he won an Academy Award.

Mediocrity does not gain splendor by sharing class with the same.

And what do any of these underwhelming victories have anything to do with him being "strong", the point of my retort?

[Mendoza]

mcvea was average, even langford alluded to this fact. A retreating fighter with one punch.

Joe Jeanette? Wasn't that the .500 fighter that ol' Arthur fought? I'm so impressed.

Ed Martin was big, no doubt, but not accomplished. Who was his greatest pelt? The aforementioned mediocre McVea? Sandy Ferguson? Victor MacClagen? At least he won an Academy Award.

Mediocrity does not gain splendor by sharing class with the same.

And what do any of these underwhelming victories have anything to do with him being "strong", the point of my retort?

Seamus,

The teenaged Sam Mcvey, and the novice ( .500 fighter ) Jeanette that Johnson defeated does not belong in this conversation as both men were well over 168 pounds.

I would like to hear a retort on Johnson being 1-1-1 vs Choynski, Ketchel, and O'Brien. One knocked him out, another knocked him down, and the other got the better of him ( according to news reports ) in a 6 round contest.

While Choynski, Ketchel and O'Brein were top 160-168 pound fighters, they also prove that Johnson was in fact vulnerable to boxers weighing from 160-168 pounds despite having a good 20-30+ pounds on them. If they could do this to Johnson, then might the best 160-168 pound fighters in history also have a similar chance of doing well?

[Bokaj]

SuzieQ i think your a little harsh on Tunney .. He was a sensational 'thinking' fighter. Your right though, i cant think of any occasion when he 'pushed around' a fighter ..

Im quite a fan of Tunney to be honest because more often than not he is denigrated by boxing fans who love to eulogise about Jack Dempsey, i think thats a shame. Dempsey is such an icon that a lot of people want to rip apart the man who beat him ..
Dempsey is such an inferior fighter to Tunney, Johnson, Ali, Louis and Holmes to me . But i am endlessly fascinated in the way people are driven wild by guys like Tyson and Dempsey .. The dreamy mythology surrounding Dempsey and Tyson will never die even though both guys shouldnt ever be rated in the top 7 Heavys of all time ....

I would honestly take an early '90s Holyfield to beat any version of Dempsey, Tyson and Marciano .. He had trouble with Bowe because Bowe at that point was an ultra offensive, highly skilled fighter who had height and reach advantage .. Holyfield's skills, forward rhytm and slick combinations would take Dempsey, Rocky and Tyson for me ..

I realise that will be a totally unpopular opinion in here, knowing the kind of religious fervour there is for Marciano and Dempsey in Eastside 'Classic' .. But Holyfield should never be dismissed against guys that are of similar size ....

I think there's some sense to this post. But I also understand Suzie's disregard for a fighter that shamelessly ducked anything black. I do agree that Dempsey even on this forum gets ridicolously overrated and mythologized by some, but the views on Tyson are more moderate.

Prime Holyfield would not be an easy task for anyone. The thing with him is that you never know if he opts to fight with his head up his arse, though. But when he fought the right fight tactically he was hell for anyone.

[flamengo]

It would take someone with stamina and a Chin. Johnson held and grappled just like Ruiz does today that could really wear a smaller guy out over 15 rounds.

I say maybe Billy Conn and Gene Tunney. I know Jake LaMotta could last the 15 but his face would probably look like a mess.

Tommy Burns looked fine after 14 rounds with Johnson... Ketchel lost a few teeth..

LaMotta would look fine after 15 rounds with Johnson.. Jack never threw a massive number of punches per round..

[McGrain]

mcvea was average, even langford alluded to this fact. A retreating fighter with one punch.

What punch were you thinking?

[Mendoza]

What punch were you thinking?

Off topic, Sam Mcvey was a 1 handed power hitter, with his money punch being the left hook. Sam Langford said Mcvey could not jab because he was bow armed, and backed up a lot.

While it is dangerous to use one film, Mcvey does a lot of retreating in his filmed fight vs Jim Battling Johnson.

[mcvey]

Seamus,

The teenaged Sam Mcvey, and the novice ( .500 fighter ) Jeanette that Johnson defeated does not belong in this conversation as both men were well over 168 pounds.

I would like to hear a retort on Johnson being 1-1-1 vs Choynski, Ketchel, and O'Brien. One knocked him out, another knocked him down, and the other got the better of him ( according to news reports ) in a 6 round contest.

While Choynski, Ketchel and O'Brein were top 160-168 pound fighters, they also prove that Johnson was in fact vulnerable to boxers weighing from 160-168 pounds despite having a good 20-30+ pounds on them. If they could do this to Johnson, then might the best 160-168 pound fighters in history also have a similar chance of doing well?

I notice that you talk of the novice Jeanette,but forget to say that Johnson was in having his 8th fight when he fought Choynsky who was in his 65th.:lol:

[mcvey]

or the fact he dominated Sam Mcvea, who was coming off a knockout victory over top contender denver ed martin?


or winning a wide 15 round decision over a 26 year old joe jenette after jenette had made sam langford quit in 8 rounds?

or dominating, dropping, outclassing sam langford in 1906 right after sam langford decisioned a 27 year old joe jeanette..... making sam claim the only time he was ever licked was against jack johnson.

How about Jack Johnson dominating 6'6 Denver Ed Martin, when Martin was colored heavyweight champion and had been gauranteed a shot at the winner of jeffries-fitz II for the crown??

or dominating one of the best white heavyweights in the world top contender Al Kaufman, who was coming off some huge wins.

these men certainly dont fit the above descriptions

It's official ,Johnson only fought midgets.:lol:

[Seamus]

I notice that you talk of the novice Jeanette,but forget to say that Johnson was in having his 8th fight when he fought Choynsky who was in his 65th.:lol:

Those were different times. It was a different sport. Guys were thrown to the wolves and had to learn the trade the hard way/ I understand this.

Johnson was no bum, just over-rated.

[McGrain]

Off topic, Sam Mcvey was a 1 handed power hitter, with his money punch being the left hook. Sam Langford said Mcvey could not jab because he was bow armed, and backed up a lot.

While it is dangerous to use one film, Mcvey does a lot of retreating in his filmed fight vs Jim Battling Johnson.


Every single newspaper account i've come across has McVey giving Langford trouble with the jab, including the controviersial win - which was controversial, because European judges were seen as being too fond of the jab, which McVey employed throughout the fight.

[Flea Man]

Dwight Muhammad Qawi would smash him to bits.

[Rico Spadafora]

I have never understood why Johnson is given credit for beating a bunch of smaller fighters than him. In the case of significance he is probably #1 in Heavyweight History but as far as him being listed in anyones All Time Heavyweight top ten I don't see how. Why is he given so much credit for beating Jeffries who was out of the ring for 6 years and had to lose 100 pounds for the fight?

Johnson's era was crap and his record is littered with draws and no contests.

It just seems as if Johnson is for some reason held to a different standard than other fighters he is excused for his losses and fighting much smaller guys while others are not.

[Mendoza]

I notice that you talk of the novice Jeanette,but forget to say that Johnson was in having his 8th fight when he fought Choynsky who was in his 65th.:lol:

Jack Johnson only had 8th fighs under his belt when he meet Choynski? :lol::lol: Who says this? The truth is more like like 25+.

Here's is Johnson's known fights before he meet Choynski. Count them if you wish:

1894
John Lee Galveston, Tx W 16 -Some sources report "KO 15"Undated (circa 1894-95)

Dave Pierson Galveston, Tx W

1895Apr 11 "Utah" Bob Thompson ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) Galveston, Tx L 4 -Some sources report 1899

1896 Cherokee Kansas City, Ks KO Howard Pollar Galveston, Tx W

1897 Jim Rocks Galveston, Tx KO 4

Sam Smith Galveston, Tx W 10

1898 Reddy Bremer Galveston, Tx KO 3

Jim Cole Galveston, Tx W 4

Henry Smith Galveston, Tx D 15


1899Feb 11 Jim McCormick Galveston, Tx D 7

Mar 17 Jim McCormick Galveston, Tx WF

7May 6 Klondike (John Haines) ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) Chicago, Il LT KO

4Dec 16 Pat Smith Galveston, Tx D12


1900Mar 7 John Lee Galveston, Tx W 15

Mar 20 Willie McNeal Galveston, Tx KO 15

Apr 6 Bob White Galveston, Tx W 15

Apr 12 Charley Brooks Galveston, Tx KO 2

May 1 Jim Scanlan Galveston, Tx KO 7

May 6 Jim McCormick Galveston, Tx KO 2

May 28 Jim McCormick Galveston, Tx KO 7

Jun 12 Horace Miles Galveston, Tx KO 3

Jun 25 Klondike (John Haines) ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) Galveston, Tx D 20 -Some sources report 6/28/00Oct

George Lawler Galveston, Tx KO 10

Nov Josh Mills Memphis, Tn W 12

Dec 27 Klondike (John Haines) ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) Memphis, Tn TK 14 -Some sources report 12/28/00

1901Feb 25 Joe Choynski ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) Galveston, Tx LK 3 -Both fighters were arrested after the fightMar 22 –Johnson and Choynski ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) were released from jail after each posted a $1,000 bond

And your link: [Only registered and activated users can see links]

[ripcity]

Johnson is what 6' 200 lbs? Very good athlete. He beats them.

[mcvey]

Jack Johnson only had 8th fighs under his belt when he meet Choynski? :lol::lol: Who says this? The truth is more like like 25+.

Here's is Johnson's known fights before he meet Choynski. Count them if you wish:

1894
John Lee Galveston, Tx W 16 -Some sources report "KO 15"Undated (circa 1894-95)

Dave Pierson Galveston, Tx W

1895Apr 11 "Utah" Bob Thompson ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) Galveston, Tx L 4 -Some sources report 1899

1896 Cherokee Kansas City, Ks KO Howard Pollar Galveston, Tx W

1897 Jim Rocks Galveston, Tx KO 4

Sam Smith Galveston, Tx W 10

1898 Reddy Bremer Galveston, Tx KO 3

Jim Cole Galveston, Tx W 4

Henry Smith Galveston, Tx D 15


1899Feb 11 Jim McCormick Galveston, Tx D 7

Mar 17 Jim McCormick Galveston, Tx WF

7May 6 Klondike (John Haines) ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) Chicago, Il LT KO

4Dec 16 Pat Smith Galveston, Tx D12


1900Mar 7 John Lee Galveston, Tx W 15

Mar 20 Willie McNeal Galveston, Tx KO 15

Apr 6 Bob White Galveston, Tx W 15

Apr 12 Charley Brooks Galveston, Tx KO 2

May 1 Jim Scanlan Galveston, Tx KO 7

May 6 Jim McCormick Galveston, Tx KO 2

May 28 Jim McCormick Galveston, Tx KO 7

Jun 12 Horace Miles Galveston, Tx KO 3

Jun 25 Klondike (John Haines) ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) Galveston, Tx D 20 -Some sources report 6/28/00Oct

George Lawler Galveston, Tx KO 10

Nov Josh Mills Memphis, Tn W 12

Dec 27 Klondike (John Haines) ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) Memphis, Tn TK 14 -Some sources report 12/28/00

1901Feb 25 Joe Choynski ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) Galveston, Tx LK 3 -Both fighters were arrested after the fightMar 22 –Johnson and Choynski ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) were released from jail after each posted a $1,000 bond

And your link: [Only registered and activated users can see links]

You are right Mendoza ,I was forgetting these ,dont know why as they are in the Book" Jack Johnson In The Ring And Out",so thats 13 more wins for Johnson then,:good

[janitor]

[quote=Seamus;4118712]mcvea was average, even langford alluded to this fact. A retreating fighter with one punch.


McVea might have been one dimensional but he and Johnson were seen as the two outstanding challengers for Jeffries title when they fought. He was probably the best 200 lb+ heavyweight available for Johnson to fight apart from Jeffries himself.


Joe Jeanette? Wasn't that the .500 fighter that ol' Arthur fought? I'm so impressed.


Acording to boxrec at least.

Of course Jeff Clark was a .500 fighter on boxrec untill K Smioth researched his career properly and he was one of the best middleweights of the era.

Incidentaly Sam McVea had at least 15 fights before he met Johnson not 8 as boxrec implies.


Ed Martin was big, no doubt, but not accomplished. Who was his greatest pelt? The aforementioned mediocre McVea? Sandy Ferguson? Victor MacClagen? At least he won an Academy Award.


Martin was the reigning coloured heavyweight champion and was being touted as the outstanding challenger for Jeffries title by some sections of the press. As with McVea he was probably the best 200 lb+ heavyweight available apart from Jeffries.

Sandy Ferguson was the Oleg Maskaev of his era. He was consistantly mismanaged and was not an elite talent but he could beat the best aroud on the day. He was seen as the heir aparent to Jeffries throne in some quaters untill he started fighting the black dynamite crew who the other to white contenders avoided. He did beat some of them however.


Mediocrity does not gain splendor by sharing class with the same.

And what do any of these underwhelming victories have anything to do with him being "strong", the point of my retort?


I do not consider any of these wins underwhelming.

At the verry least they are on a par with Larry Holmses best win.

Above all they show that Jack Johnson did fight larger oponents and did not strugle with them stylisticaly.

[mcvey]

[quote]


McVea might have been one dimensional but he and Johnson were seen as the two outstanding challengers for Jeffries title when they fought. He was probably the best 200 lb+ heavyweight available for Johnson to fight apart from Jeffries himself.



Acording to boxrec at least.

Of course Jeff Clark was a .500 fighter on boxrec untill K Smioth researched his career properly and he was one of the best middleweights of the era.

Incidentaly Sam McVea had at least 15 fights before he met Johnson not 8 as boxrec implies.



Martin was the reigning coloured heavyweight champion and was being touted as the outstanding challenger for Jeffries title by some sections of the press. As with McVea he was probably the best 200 lb+ heavyweight available apart from Jeffries.

Sandy Ferguson was the Oleg Maskaev of his era. He was consistantly mismanaged and was not an elite talent but he could beat the best aroud on the day. He was seen as the heir aparent to Jeffries throne in some quaters untill he started fighting the black dynamite crew who the other to white contenders avoided. He did beat some of them however.



I do not consider any of these wins underwhelming.

At the verry least they are on a par with Larry Holmses best win.

Above all they show that Jack Johnson did fight larger oponents and did not strugle with them stylisticaly.

Since Mendoza joined in this thread, I think we can take it as a given that the purpose of it was to denigrate Johnson further,he quite rightly corrected my error in forgetting Cyberzones fights of Johnson's early career. And I ackowledged my mistake . I notice however , he did not include the short bio of Johnson above his record ,which evaluated him as "possibly the greatest heavyweight who ever fought,a master of defence, allmost impossible to hit cleanly, fast with an outstanding jab and uppercut,and allmost flawless in all other aspects of pugilism".
This opinion is totally at variance with Mendoza's , he would have you beleive that Johnson would be in imminent danger against any top middles and super middles.

[ChrisPontius]

since mendoza originated this thread, i think we can take it as a given that the purpose of it was to denigrate johnson further

ahum!

[mcvey]

[quote=mcvey;4123261]

AHUM!
Sorry CP :oops: [actually its AHEM] well in the UK at least.
See edited post :good

[ChrisPontius]

No problem, mcvey. :good

That was your first Dutch lesson. It's a U. AHUM!!


p.s. although i'm not the biggest Johnson fan, this was a serious thread. I'll leave the slander for the Dempsey ones. :yep

[McGrain]

[actually its AHEM]

:lol:

[mcvey]

No problem, mcvey. :good

That was your first Dutch lesson. It's a U. AHUM!!


p.s. although i'm not the biggest Johnson fan, this was a serious thread. I'll leave the slander for the Dempsey ones. :yep
I stand corrected by you twice in one thread then :patsch

[Mendoza]

[quote=janitor;4122904]

Since Mendoza joined in this thread, I think we can take it as a given that the purpose of it was to denigrate Johnson further,he quite rightly corrected my error in forgetting Cyberzones fights of Johnson's early career. And I ackowledged my mistake . I notice however , he did not include the short bio of Johnson above his record ,which evaluated him as "possibly the greatest heavyweight who ever fought,a master of defence, allmost impossible to hit cleanly, fast with an outstanding jab and uppercut,and allmost flawless in all other aspects of pugilism".
This opinion is totally at variance with Mendoza's , he would have you beleive that Johnson would be in imminent danger against any top middles and super middles.

I think my purpose here to to engage in this thread. It seems your have too much of an agenda with Johnson. If I read wrong information I will try to correct it for the readers of the forum. It seems like you take it personal, then spin things in some sort of lame effort to undermine ring facts.

The truth is Johnson had 25+ fights under his belt, and was Kod in his home town by Choynski. To say Johnson was a novice here is wrong.

As for Johnson being in imminent danger vs top middles and supper middles I think Choynski proves it could happen. Ketchel also floored Johnson, and O'Brien out jabbed him. So yes--talented middles or supper middles could upset Johnson or make him look bad. The proof is in the pudding here, and we have three examples.

[mcvey]

[quote=mcvey;4123261]

I think my purpose here to to engage in this thread. It seems your have too much of an agenda with Johnson. If I read wrong information I will try to correct it for the readers of the forum. It seems like you take it personal, then spin things in some sort of lame effort to undermine ring facts.

The truth is Johnson had 25+ fights under his belt, and was Kod in his home town by Choynski. To say Johnson was a novice here is wrong.

As for Johnson being in imminent danger vs top middles and supper middles I think Choynski proves it could happen. Ketchel also floored Johnson, and O'Brien out jabbed him. So yes--talented middles or supper middles could upset Johnson or make him look bad. The proof is in the pudding here, and we have three examples.

Your post is rather difficult to decipher [as usual] but I have acknowledged my oversight on Johnson's fights and posted it.
I can't understand your first two sentences, so won't comment on them.
Choynsky kod Johnson ,this is not exactly ground breaking stuff,I think everyone knows it.Ketchel floored Johnson again we all know this .
I am NOT going round the houses with you on the 6 rd NO DECISION Johnson engaged in with O Brien,we have been over this before with several posters including Janitor and Old Fogey I beleive , disagreeing wirh you on your interpretation of the event.
You spin a negative side on to any thing concerning Johnson and are famous for it.
BIGOTRY,THY NAME IS BIGOTRY.

[he grant]

I think Johnson was an exceptional fighter but there is no doubt his chin was not granite. His exceptional defense allowed him to dominate as long as he did ... while I'm sure it was not glass like Wlad, I think it was like Lennox Lewis, dentable if caught right ... that being said in reviewing Johnson's career one has to read between the lines. When motivated he was exceprional. Often he was lackluster.

Johnson against middleweights, a joke , right? He destroys any and all as he sees fit ..

[Mendoza]

[quote=Mendoza;4127703]

Your post is rather difficult to decipher [as usual] but I have acknowledged my oversight on Johnson's fights and posted it.
I can't understand your first two sentences, so won't comment on them.
Choynsky kod Johnson ,this is not exactly ground breaking stuff,I think everyone knows it.Ketchel floored Johnson again we all know this .
I am NOT going round the houses with you on the 6 rd NO DECISION Johnson engaged in with O Brien,we have been over this before with several posters including Janitor and Old Fogey I beleive , disagreeing wirh you on your interpretation of the event.
You spin a negative side on to any thing concerning Johnson and are famous for it.
BIGOTRY,THY NAME IS BIGOTRY.

And thy name is ignorance. We have been over the fact than some news papers felt O'Brien was the better. And I posted a detailed round by round of the fight itself. I am sure you read it.

Simply acknowledge the fact that a past his best 160 pound man ( O'brien ) scored enough to the point he not only showed up the heavyweight champion of the world, but some felt was the better man.

Johnson's vaulted defense did not help him in this fight. It is my opinion that any skilled out fighter lands on Johnson, and this is backed up on film by a fringe level contender in Frank Moran scoring on a slightly past his best Johnson repeatedly in a 20 round contest. You should watch it sometime.

You continue to read with your eyes wide shut. I do not expect you to change your ways, but like I said before if you make bad mistake or two, I will correct it for the forum readers.

I see there was no reply on the Gunboat Smith TKO. Just say the word, and I can re-post the news clipping for you.

[SuzieQ49]

and this is backed up on film by a fringe level contender in Frank Moran scoring on a slightly past his best Johnson repeatedly in a 20 round contest.

Johnson was far past his prime vs Moran. Not only had he fattened up to a obese 221lb, he also had been very inactive in the ring in the past 3 years, and was extremley rusty. He was also 36 years old. Johnson's prime was 1907-1910. When Johnson went to europe in 1912, he was never the same again. He got into whoring, partying, binge eating, alchohol, depression from running from authority...he fattenned up, he got old, his reflexes and timing lost sting. Still a good fighter, but nowhere near his prime.

[Mendoza]

Johnson was far past his prime vs Moran. Not only had he fattened up to a obese 221lb, he also had been very inactive in the ring in the past 3 years, and was extremley rusty. He was also 36 years old. Johnson's prime was 1907-1910. When Johnson went to europe in 1912, he was never the same again. He got into whoring, partying, binge eating, alchohol, depression from running from authority...he fattenned up, he got old, his reflexes and timing lost sting. Still a good fighter, but nowhere near his prime.

Some there think Johnson prime weight was 210 pounds, so is 11 pounds more that bad? Clearly Johnson was in good enough shape to go 20 rounds. If he was in bad shape, he does not go 20 rounds. I think Johnson was past his best for Moran, but I also feel he wasn't close to being a shot fighter.

The thing to focus on here is Moran was not that good, yet nearly took the decision. Johnson's defense did not help him, and he was in fact at a disadvantage in the out fighting. The full 20 rounds is out there if you care to view and score it for yourself. I do not think a 36 year old Louis or Holmes has a close fight with Moran.

[mcvey]

[quote=mcvey;4127958]

And thy name is ignorance. We have been over the fact than some news papers felt O'Brien was the better. And I posted a detailed round by round of the fight itself. I am sure you read it.

Simply acknowledge the fact that a past his best 160 pound man ( O'brien ) scored enough to the point he not only showed up the heavyweight champion of the world, but some felt was the better man.

Johnson's vaulted defense did not help him in this fight. It is my opinion that any skilled out fighter lands on Johnson, and this is backed up on film by a fringe level contender in Frank Moran scoring on a slightly past his best Johnson repeatedly in a 20 round contest. You should watch it sometime.

You continue to read with your eyes wide shut. I do not expect you to change your ways, but like I said before if you make bad mistake or two, I will correct it for the forum readers.

I see there was no reply on the Gunboat Smith TKO. Just say the word, and I can re-post the news clipping for you.

Its really funny you calling me ignorant ,you ,who cannot write a sentence without either a spelling mistake or a grammatical error in it.
As I said before you cannot debate with a bigot, especially one who has learning difficulties.
Johnson was a year older than than Jeffries was when he made his comeback he was dissipated and fat,he has a roll of suet hanging over his trunks ,Ive watched this fight probably 20 times .Do you think you can teach me anything about it? You sad twat.
Vaulted defence was he jumping over a gym horse?
For god's sake get some one to check your posts before you send them you pleb, you embarrass yourself.