Louis and Frazier fight 10 times. How often does Joe bomb him out like Foreman?

[ChrisPontius]

Let's hear it.

[dmt]

0

I realy doubt it. Joe was more patient then Foreman. If u read about or watch the second Louis-Godoy fight, that was how Louis fought a crouching iron chinned fighter. I dont think Louis could finish off Frazier within the first three rounds

[mr. magoo]

If these two fought 10 times, I would expect that both men would win more than a couple each, but at the end of the day, I think I'll pick Frazier to have more numbers in the win column. Joe Louis was a totally different kind of puncher than George Foreman was. He did not have the kind of power nore used the same sort of angles that Foreman utilized to lift Frazier off the canvas or knock him right off his feet. Louis relied on fast combinations of technical shots, which is great against most opponents. However, a man of Frazier's, style, handspeed, and upperbody movement would fair better against Louis than a man like Foreman. One last point, is that Louis was commonly troubled or decked by left hooks, and this was Frazier's sunday punch...

[abraq]

Mr. Magoo has a point about Louis & Foreman punch angles. Frazier had a sort of continous head movement which worked very well against straight punches but not so well against swinging roundhouse punches.

But Frazier could be hurt in the early rounds - Bonavena, Quarry I, Ali II, & Foreman in both fights. I would say that Louis punched harder than Bonavena, Quarry and Ali. Plus he had speed and accuracy better than Bonavena & Quarry. Chances are he could catch Frazier in the early rounds in spite of punching mostly straight. And if Louis hurts Frazier, don't expect Smokin' Joe to get off as lightly as he did against Ali, Bonavena & Quarry.

I think Louis had more of a weakness against right hand punches. But it has to be said that Louis too could be hit and hurt.

IMO, The Brown Bomber does succeed in putting away Frazier in, say 3 or 4 out of 10. He wins 3 or 4 by decision and loses 3 or 4. And no, I don't have a fascination for "3 or 4".

[ChrisPontius]

0

I realy doubt it. Joe was more patient then Foreman. If u read about or watch the second Louis-Godoy fight, that was how Louis fought a crouching iron chinned fighter. I dont think Louis could finish off Frazier within the first three rounds

Frazier wasn't an iron-chinned fighter, though.

However, i am interested in hearing how often you see Louis winning, regardless of how, out of 10? If so, by decision or stoppage, when?



If these two fought 10 times, I would expect that both men would win more than a couple each, but at the end of the day, I think I'll pick Frazier to have more numbers in the win column. Joe Louis was a totally different kind of puncher than George Foreman was. He did not have the kind of power nore used the same sort of angles that Foreman utilized to lift Frazier off the canvas or knock him right off his feet. Louis relied on fast combinations of technical shots, which is great against most opponents. However, a man of Frazier's, style, handspeed, and upperbody movement would fair better against Louis than a man like Foreman. One last point, is that Louis was commonly troubled or decked by left hooks, and this was Frazier's sunday punch...

Louis was commonly troubled decked by left hooks? I wouldn't say so. Schmeling did all his best work with the right. Braddock, if i remember correct, knocked him down with a right hand, Walcott decked him with right hands all 3 times, Mauriello stunned him with a right, B. Baer used a right/left combination . Marciano did floor him with a left hook, but finished him with a right hand... and i think it was more about Louis' entire decline there than a pattern or weakness.

On your other point, Louis may not have the sort of power that Foreman had, but he made up for that with better accuracy and speed. Who is to say that would not work against a guy like Frazier?

[round15]

First of all, let's be a bit more fair to Frazier and use the 1967 - 1970 version.

Foreman NEVER beat the prime version of Frazier. The Frazier that he destroyed in two rounds, 1973, was indeed only two years removed from the FOTC, but there's a huge difference in conditoning. I'll put my money on the the Joe Frazier, just prior to the FOTC, to beat George Foreman inside ten rounds. Styles don't always make fights and Foreman never had to face a prime conditioned Frazier that would pound his body and make him miss with his trademark head movement. People on this forum also tend to discredit prime Frazier's overall speed, hand and foot. Foreman wouldn't be able to land the same shots that Ali landed because he doesn't have the handspeed. If prime Frazier was able to make Ali miss, there's certainly no reason why he wouldn't be able to make the much slower Foreman miss, and land to the body. If Frazier used the same tactics he did against Foreman, like he did against George Chuvalo, consisting of more jabs, right hands, more circling, less pressure and more body shots, George would be in a tougher fight. Say what you want about Mercante's officiating job in the 1973 title defense, but there's no denying the fact that he let George get away with more wrestling, holding and shoving tactics than any other referee. George wouldn't have the endurance to keep pushing a prime Frazier away, and eventually Frazier would take away his power from the result of his body attack. Any heavyweight in history, champion or contender would be very hard pressed to stop a prime 1967 -1970 Joe Frazier.

As for Joe Louis, he may have Frazier down early, like most bigger punchers could have, when facing him. Joe Louis is NOT bombing out prime Frazier, but he probably stops the 1973 conditioned Frazier in 5 or 6 rounds, not as quick as Foreman. Prime Frazier would KO a healthier Louis worse than what Marciano did to a depleted Louis.

[guilalah]

round15,

I agree, a '67-'71 Frazier with a strict referee has a much better shot against '73 Foreman (than the Kingston Frazier).

[mr. magoo]

=ChrisPontius;4162784]



Louis was commonly troubled decked by left hooks? I wouldn't say so. Schmeling did all his best work with the right. Braddock, if i remember correct, knocked him down with a right hand, Walcott decked him with right hands all 3 times, Mauriello stunned him with a right, B. Baer used a right/left combination . Marciano did floor him with a left hook, but finished him with a right hand... and i think it was more about Louis' entire decline there than a pattern or weakness.



Galento also nailed him with a left. On your other point, Louis may not have the sort of power that Foreman had, but he made up for that with better accuracy and speed. Who is to say that would not work against a guy like Frazier?

I already commented on this, and my explanation was this


Louis relied on fast combinations of technical shots, which is great against most opponents. However, a man of Frazier's, style, handspeed, and upperbody movement would fair better against Louis than a man like Foreman.

[mr. magoo]

First of all, let's be a bit more fair to Frazier and use the 1967 - 1970 version.

Foreman NEVER beat the prime version of Frazier. The Frazier that he destroyed in two rounds, 1973, was indeed only two years removed from the FOTC, but there's a huge difference in conditoning. I'll put my money on the the Joe Frazier, just prior to the FOTC, to beat George Foreman inside ten rounds. Styles don't always make fights and Foreman never had to face a prime conditioned Frazier that would pound his body and make him miss with his trademark head movement. People on this forum also tend to discredit prime Frazier's overall speed, hand and foot. Foreman wouldn't be able to land the same shots that Ali landed because he doesn't have the handspeed. If prime Frazier was able to make Ali miss, there's certainly no reason why he wouldn't be able to make the much slower Foreman miss, and land to the body. If Frazier used the same tactics he did against Foreman, like he did against George Chuvalo, consisting of more jabs, right hands, more circling, less pressure and more body shots, George would be in a tougher fight. Say what you want about Mercante's officiating job in the 1973 title defense, but there's no denying the fact that he let George get away with more wrestling, holding and shoving tactics than any other referee. George wouldn't have the endurance to keep pushing a prime Frazier away, and eventually Frazier would take away his power from the result of his body attack. Any heavyweight in history, champion or contender would be very hard pressed to stop a prime 1967 -1970 Joe Frazier.

As for Joe Louis, he may have Frazier down early, like most bigger punchers could have, when facing him. Joe Louis is NOT bombing out prime Frazier, but he probably stops the 1973 conditioned Frazier in 5 or 6 rounds, not as quick as Foreman. Prime Frazier would KO a healthier Louis worse than what Marciano did to a depleted Louis.


Frazier may have had an additional 8 or 9 lbs on him, plus had lost a little bit of his edge, but there is a world of difference between being slightly removed from one's prime and being totally " shot."

Frazier fans rarely make any concessions for Ali losing 4 years of his career before entering the ring with Joe, but Frazier at age 29 and while holding the lineal championship and being less than two years past his best perfomance is somehow shot. I will also ad that if you watch the thrilla in manilla and check out the punch stats in that fight, it would hardly seem as though Frazier was a shell of himself, and keep in mind that fight occurred two years after the beating in Kingston Jamaica..

I will agree that Joe Frazier may have been slipping a tad in 1973, but I refuse to concur that he was totally shot, or that a younger Frazier by only 3 years, and weighing a few lbs less would go from getting creamed in two rounds to winning the fight....

Not happening....

[PetethePrince]

Louis always had a hidden weakness against pressure fighters and Frazier would be the biggest pressure fighter he fought. Frazier punched harder than anyone Joe has fought except for Marciano, and I would say it would be tough for Joe to continuously keep Frazier at bay. However, with Joe's precision and fast punching I'd see him winning most fights with Frazier if they fought 10 times. If they fought 10 times Frazier would probably have a less chance after each fight bearing that type of fighter and style doesn't have the longevity of a Holmes, Ali, and Louis. Louis always came back strong in rematches. I suppose I'd pick Joe to win 7/10 of the fights, most by decision or late TKO. If Frazier wins, he wins by knockout or TKO or possibly a decision (Which I wouldn't see).

[janitor]

I think that if Louis wins a numbner of fights the chances are that at least one is going to be an early blowout.

Louis lost his first fight to Schmeling and stopped him in the first in the rematch.

He knew he had been in a fight against Buddy Baer first time round but stopped him in one in the rematch.

I think that if Louis thought an oponent was dangerous he was more likley to go for an early knockout. If this series is going to get messy for him then he is likley to pull a Foreman at some point

[Danny]

Louis was a methodical & meticulous type of fighter. He showed a lot of patience, often as if he knew he would get to his opponent sooner or later, very sure of himself!

I think Louis would be too accurate for Frazier! Joe often had to take a punch to land his own. That's not good when facing a guy like Louis.

Joe would give it everything though & if he caught Joe cleanly with the left hook, I'm not sure Louis would recover!

[round15]

If these two fought 10 times, I would expect that both men would win more than a couple each, but at the end of the day, I think I'll pick Frazier to have more numbers in the win column. Joe Louis was a totally different kind of puncher than George Foreman was. He did not have the kind of power nore used the same sort of angles that Foreman utilized to lift Frazier off the canvas or knock him right off his feet. Louis relied on fast combinations of technical shots, which is great against most opponents. However, a man of Frazier's, style, handspeed, and upperbody movement would fair better against Louis than a man like Foreman. One last point, is that Louis was commonly troubled or decked by left hooks, and this was Frazier's sunday punch...

Foreman didn't use any angles or angled punches to knock Frazier out. Foreman's punches were wild winging shots, that he used to catch Frazier after illegaly shoving him off balance. He did the exact same thing with Norton as well, shoving him off balance and catching him with big shotsin the process.

Nobody should deny the fact that Mercante played a big role in Foreman's dominance in that 1973 title fight against Frazier. He allowed Foreman's wrestling and holding tactics to dictate the action, when George should have been penalized. Still, I believe he wouldn't have had the easy time with Frazier, especially if Joe came into the fight with the same dedication to training he paid to Ali. Too many on this forum conclude that Foreman would always destroy Frazier which is wrong.

[Ted Spoon]

Frazier's style would work a groove into Louis' tight boxing, but the straight right he threw would be a big problem for Frazier.

Generally, the adaptation and fight plan musing of Louis should swing the majority of these encounters in his favour.

An early stoppage is very much an option also because of Louis' accuracy and Frazier's eagerness. Where Foreman sometimes cuffed a dazed Frazier, Louis would be catching him for keeps.

[OBCboxer]

Frazier wins 6 or 7 out of 10. Louis didn't like pressure and was prone to eating the left hook, which was Frazier's signature punch.

[round15]

Frazier may have had an additional 8 or 9 lbs on him, plus had lost a little bit of his edge, but there is a world of difference between being slightly removed from one's prime and being totally " shot."

Frazier fans rarely make any concessions for Ali losing 4 years of his career before entering the ring with Joe, but Frazier at age 29 and while holding the lineal championship and being less than two years past his best perfomance is somehow shot. I will also ad that if you watch the thrilla in manilla and check out the punch stats in that fight, it would hardly seem as though Frazier was a shell of himself, and keep in mind that fight occurred two years after the beating in Kingston Jamaica..

I will agree that Joe Frazier may have been slipping a tad in 1973, but I refuse to concur that he was totally shot, or that a younger Frazier by only 3 years, and weighing a few lbs less would go from getting creamed in two rounds to winning the fight....

Not happening....

Didn't say he was totally shot Mr Magoo, because after revisiting the 1973 title defense, Frazier did OK for the first minute and landed some good shots against Foreman. He was far from the prime condition he exuded against Foster, Ellis and Ali though. What happened next was almost pure abandonment by Mercante to enforce the rules. No other ref would have allowed Foreman's wrestling tactics, and no other ref would have allowed Archie Moore to stand on the apron in the middle of the action. Frazier stopped punching and looked like he was walking to a neutral corner while Moore was trying to get the refs attention. Foreman took advantage of Joe turning his back and proceeded to land big, heavy shots.

I will say that Frazier's downfall against Foreman is in large part his own fault. Eddie Futch described Frazier's Jamaica training camp as "one big party" and he was worried about Joe potentially gettting beat by a young, strong, ambitious big puncher that Foreman was. Still, it would be hard to convince me that Foreman would KO the FOTC Joe Frazier or the champion from 1968.

[SuzieQ49]

Joe Louis at his best beats Joe Frazier at least 9 times out of 10. Usually by early-mid round knockout.

[he grant]

Joe Louis was lightning fast and had one punch KO power with either hand ... I view him as a terrible match up for Frazier who I also love. I see Louis stopping him inside of five ... a brutal KO as well ...

[groove]

louis and foreman are nowhere near the same fighters so what foreman did to frazier doesn't mean louis will. foreman threw his shots from further distance, louis like to be up close like frazier did. louis won't be set to throw loads of shots on frazier. frazier will be on him constantly hitting like henry armstrong. no fighter likes that much pressure.

[fists of fury]

It really depends on so many factors.

Let's say Frazier wins the first fight. This would give Louis all the drive he needs to really come at Joe in the second fight.

However, if Louis wins the first one, he may be more patient next time round, and Frazier would be extra motivated. The chances of a blowout are remote here, imo.

To be honest though, I don't really see Louis bombing Frazier out at all; at least not in the way Foreman did. Don't get me wrong, I can see Louis winning his fair share by stoppage or maybe even knockout, but bombing Frazier out?

I can't see it happening.

[mcvey]

round15,

I agree, a '67-'71 Frazier with a strict referee has a much better shot against '73 Foreman (than the Kingston Frazier).

How many punches did Mercante land on Frazier? :lol:

[yancey]

First of all, let's be a bit more fair to Frazier and use the 1967 - 1970 version.

Foreman NEVER beat the prime version of Frazier. The Frazier that he destroyed in two rounds, 1973, was indeed only two years removed from the FOTC, but there's a huge difference in conditoning. I'll put my money on the the Joe Frazier, just prior to the FOTC, to beat George Foreman inside ten rounds. Styles don't always make fights and Foreman never had to face a prime conditioned Frazier that would pound his body and make him miss with his trademark head movement. People on this forum also tend to discredit prime Frazier's overall speed, hand and foot. Foreman wouldn't be able to land the same shots that Ali landed because he doesn't have the handspeed. If prime Frazier was able to make Ali miss, there's certainly no reason why he wouldn't be able to make the much slower Foreman miss, and land to the body. If Frazier used the same tactics he did against Foreman, like he did against George Chuvalo, consisting of more jabs, right hands, more circling, less pressure and more body shots, George would be in a tougher fight. Say what you want about Mercante's officiating job in the 1973 title defense, but there's no denying the fact that he let George get away with more wrestling, holding and shoving tactics than any other referee. George wouldn't have the endurance to keep pushing a prime Frazier away, and eventually Frazier would take away his power from the result of his body attack. Any heavyweight in history, champion or contender would be very hard pressed to stop a prime 1967 -1970 Joe Frazier.

As for Joe Louis, he may have Frazier down early, like most bigger punchers could have, when facing him. Joe Louis is NOT bombing out prime Frazier, but he probably stops the 1973 conditioned Frazier in 5 or 6 rounds, not as quick as Foreman. Prime Frazier would KO a healthier Louis worse than what Marciano did to a depleted Louis.

Excellent. Agree 100% on all points made.

Prime Frazier beats Louis and also Foreman, assuming a good refereeing job.

[dezbeast]

Excellent. Agree 100% on all points made.

Prime Frazier beats Louis and also Foreman, assuming a good refereeing job.

I agree that Frazier would beat Louis, but I don't see him ever beating Foreman, strict referee or not.

[janitor]

To be honest though, I don't really see Louis bombing Frazier out at all; at least not in the way Foreman did. Don't get me wrong, I can see Louis winning his fair share by stoppage or maybe even knockout, but bombing Frazier out?

I can't see it happening.

When Louis decided on an early night he was probably as good at getting an early stoppage as anybody in history.

He only went for an early finish if he regarded an oponent as a threat eg Schmeling, Buddy Baer.

Certainly a possible scenario.

[yancey]

I agree that Frazier would beat Louis, but I don't see him ever beating Foreman, strict referee or not.

I see the absolute prime Frazier (which was in '69 and '70, imo) getting past those critical early rounds against Foreman, getting inside George's punching radius , laying his head on George's chest, and from rounds 4 on wearing George down with body shots. In a battle of attrition, Frazier wins by knockout in 10. Even George later said that he knew he must win early, or Frazier would wear him down.

All this depends on a ref that would put an end to the pushing off.....Frazier has to be able to get inside George's punching radius in order to win the fight.

[yancey]

When Louis decided on an early night he was probably as good at getting an early stoppage as anybody in history.

He only went for an early finish if he regarded an oponent as a threat eg Schmeling, Buddy Baer.

Certainly a possible scenario.

Well, I do agree that Louis would have had a fairly early night against the prime Smokin' Joe Frazier of '69-'70.

Not by his choice, however. ;)

[janitor]

Well, I do agree that Louis would have had a fairly early night against the prime Smokin' Joe Frazier of '69-'70.

Not by his choice, however. ;)

If Frazier dreams it he better wake up and apologize.

[he grant]

Again I love Frazier but I think some of you guys are crazy ... Frazier was a slow starter. Louis could come out like lightning. I happen to think not only was Louis a much faster puncher than Foreman, I think he was a better puncher than Foreman. I think he would take Frazier out . No one who gets hit and is a slow starter matches up well against Louis.

FYI: All these reference to Louis as small, watch the tape of Frazer/Quarry 2. Louis is the ref and he makes both guys look like Pigmys ..

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[leverage]

I honestly believe it would be a matter of who got to who first. On paper louis looks like the winner. He had superior boxing skills, power and hand speed.

However, he also had a c-grade chin and slow feet, two deficiencys that could be exploited by frazier. I could see him catching and hurting louis with the hook and even flooring him.

I think that while it could go either way, I would give louis the edge. The impact of him punches would be doubled as louis came in, which would become too much for frazier to take. I say that louis wins at least 7 out of 10.

[Flea Man]

I personally think Frazier would smash Louis to bits.

[ron u.k.]

Foreman didn't use any angles or angled punches to knock Frazier out. Foreman's punches were wild winging shots, that he used to catch Frazier after illegaly shoving him off balance. He did the exact same thing with Norton as well, shoving him off balance and catching him with big shotsin the process.

Nobody should deny the fact that Mercante played a big role in Foreman's dominance in that 1973 title fight against Frazier. He allowed Foreman's wrestling and holding tactics to dictate the action, when George should have been penalized. Still, I believe he wouldn't have had the easy time with Frazier, especially if Joe came into the fight with the same dedication to training he paid to Ali. Too many on this forum conclude that Foreman would always destroy Frazier which is wrong. Partly,but the shot that was giving Frazier the most trouble was the lead right uppercut straight through the middle.There was nothing wild and winging about those punches at all.

[mr. magoo]

Again I love Frazier but I think some of you guys are crazy ... Frazier was a slow starter. Louis could come out like lightning. I happen to think not only was Louis a much faster puncher than Foreman, I think he was a better puncher than Foreman. I think he would take Frazier out . No one who gets hit and is a slow starter matches up well against Louis.

FYI: All these reference to Louis as small, watch the tape of Frazer/Quarry 2. Louis is the ref and he makes both guys look like Pigmys ..

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Louis did not always get off to a fast start in some of his fights either. He was often decked early, or fell behind on the cards before coming back to conquer his opponent. A man with Frazier's handspeed, upperbody movement, and punching power could have possed some real problems. Especially, when we consider how much difficulty Louis sometimes had with some of the stationary targets that he fought.

[yancey]

I personally think Frazier would smash Louis to bits.

I personally think you are right.

[yancey]

Louis did not always get off to a fast start in some of his fights either. He was often decked early, or fell behind on the cards before coming back to conquer his opponent. A man with Frazier's handspeed, upperbody movement, and punching power could have possed some real problems. Especially, when we consider how much difficulty Louis sometimes had with some of the stationary targets that he fought.

IF Louis did not get off to a fast start and hurt Frazier early, then I think he ultimately would have been in real trouble and the end would not be pretty.

Frazier would have Louis down two or three times by the 9th round, and the referee would stop it, imo.

[ironchamp]

I think that if Louis wins a numbner of fights the chances are that at least one is going to be an early blowout.

Louis lost his first fight to Schmeling and stopped him in the first in the rematch.

He knew he had been in a fight against Buddy Baer first time round but stopped him in one in the rematch.

I think that if Louis thought an oponent was dangerous he was more likley to go for an early knockout. If this series is going to get messy for him then he is likley to pull a Foreman at some point

Agreed. Louis had a tendancy to improve dramatically in rematches. He knew what he had in front of him and as a result stepped it up big time.

While I'm not entirely convinced that Louis wins more than 6 times against Frazier, given Frazier's propensity to start slow its not out of the question that Joe can get him out early.

[SuzieQ49]

There is no way anybody should be picking joe frazier in this thread. Were talking about Joe Frazier walking right into the greatest puncher of all time with only one powerful hand. Its suicide.

[Quick Cash]

Louis' chances of emerging with the win increases after every encounter; partly because of Louis, and partly because of Frazier. Frazier will not be posting a surprise win in the rematch after being knocked out by Louis. I find that highly unlikely. His chance at victory will evaporate very quickly once Louis knows what he's up against.

Louis wins by stoppage by the 9th round or so, on average.

[janitor]

I personally think Frazier would smash Louis to bits.

Louis was a far more effective puncher and finisher than Foreman.

If Frazier is going to smash him to bits by coming forward he is going to have to wade through several circles of hell to do it.

[mr. magoo]

There is no way anybody should be picking joe frazier in this thread. Were talking about Joe Frazier walking right into the greatest puncher of all time with only one powerful hand. Its suicide.

You make it sound as though Louis beating Frazier is an automatic forgone Conclusion. Louis was floored and even beaten by lesser men. Frazier's handspeed, workrate, and solid lefthook were unheard of during the 1930's an 40's. Now, its reasonable to pick Louis. But, to say that Frazier going into the ring with Louis is " suicide ", doesn't seem like a balanced view.

[Bokaj]

Foreman is used very much as an example here, and of course there's reason why. But let's not forget that Louis had trouble with swarmers as well. Godoy is light years from a prime Frazier and he gave a prime Louis trouble in the first fight (not in the second, though). So there are examples one can use to show how much trouble Louis would have with Frazier, as well.

And while Louis was a lot sharper a puncher than Foreman (but less powerful) there are other things to consider as well. He would not have been able (or probably even tried to) push Frazier around like a rag doll, and he also wouldn't shake off the punches Frazier did land like they were nothing.

Louis was a better fighter than Foreman, but not nearly as difficult from a stylistical standpoint IMO.

[Bokaj]

You make it sound as though Louis beating Frazier is an automatic forgone Conclusion. Louis was floored and even beaten by lesser men. Frazier's handspeed, workrate, and solid lefthook were unheard of during the 1930's an 40's. Now, its reasonable to pick Louis. But, to say that Frazier going into the ring with Louis is " suicide ", doesn't seem like a balanced view.

I agree.

[janitor]

[quote=Bokaj;4215999]Foreman is used very much as an example here, and of course there's reason why. But let's not forget that Louis had trouble with swarmers as well. Godoy is light years from a prime Frazier and he gave a prime Louis trouble in the first fight (not in the second, though).

He also crouched down so low that his elbows were touching the canvas every time Louis tried to hit him. He didnt so much swarm as spoil and try to avoid fighting.

This is not exactly a model for how Frazier would have aproached the fight.

[Bokaj]

[quote]

He also crouched down so low that his elbows were touching the canvas every time Louis tried to hit him. He didnt so much swarm as spoil and try to avoid fighting.

This is not exactly a model for how Frazier would have aproached the fight.

Sure. Hardly carbon copies, but Foreman and Louis wasn't either. And Louis said himself that he had trouble with swarmers. Don't think Big George would make such an admission.

[janitor]

[quote=janitor;4216022]

Sure. Hardly carbon copies, but Foreman and Louis wasn't either. And Louis said himself that he had trouble with swarmers. Don't think Big George would make such an admission.

I dont claim that Louis was similar to Foreman stylisticaly.

Their is one key similarity however. They were both masters of punishing a come forward fighter for coming forward. There is a reason why Louis was one of the few who genuinely picked Foreman to win the fight.

By attacking Louis Frazier would be giving him half of what he wanted. Frazier would have to take a hideous shelacking in the early rounds. If he survives to the mid rounds then Louis has a fight on his hands but Frazier is probably already in a bad way.

Personaly the only way I see Frazier winning is if he takes it into the later rounds and punished Louis in the later rounds. If he can do that then he deserves to win.

[Bokaj]

[quote=Bokaj;4216046]

I dont claim that Louis was similar to Foreman stylisticaly.

Their is one key similarity however. They were both masters of punishing a come forward fighter for coming forward. There is a reason why Louis was one of the few who genuinely picked Foreman to win the fight.

By attacking Louis Frazier would be giving him half of what he wanted. Frazier would have to take a hideous shelacking in the early rounds. If he survives to the mid rounds then Louis has a fight on his hands but Frazier is probably already in a bad way.

Personaly the only way I see Frazier winning is if he takes it into the later rounds and punished Louis in the later rounds. If he can do that then he deserves to win.

I'd give him a hell of chance if he survives the first 2-3 rounds. And if Louis ate up everyone who came to him he would hardly point out swarming as the style that gave him the most trouble.

Of course, the chance that Louis does KO Frazier is not insignificant. Especially not in rematches.

[janitor]

[quote=Bokaj;4216129]
I'd give him a hell of chance if he survives the first 2-3 rounds. And if Louis ate up everyone who came to him he would hardly point out swarming as the style that gave him the most trouble.


It wasnt swarming that Louis identified as giving him trouble but crowding.

I think that some of the fighters who gave him trouble with this tactic were of diferent styles notably Billy Conn. Perhaps a mid range swarmer would be right up his street.

Of course just because crowding gave him trouble dosnt exactly mean it was a good idea. It generaly turned out worse for the other guy than for him.

You also have to look at the fighters who extended Louis or nearly extended him and their styles.

Walcott, Conn and Pastor were slicksters.

Schmeling was a defensive counterpuncher.

Far was a boxer swarmer who elected to counterpunch instead of aply steady pressure.

Godoy wasa swarmer but a spoiler type who tried to avoid engaging Louis.

[Bokaj]

[quote]


It wasnt swarming that Louis identified as giving him trouble but crowding.

I think that some of the fighters who gave him trouble with this tactic were of diferent styles notably Billy Conn. Perhaps a mid range swarmer would be right up his street.

Of course just because crowding gave him trouble dosnt exactly mean it was a good idea. It generaly turned out worse for the other guy than for him.

You also have to look at the fighters who extended Louis or nearly extended him and their styles.

Walcott, Conn and Pastor were slicksters.

Schmeling was a defensive counterpuncher.

Far was a boxer swarmer who elected to counterpunch instead of aply steady pressure.

Godoy wasa swarmer but a spoiler type who tried to avoid engaging Louis.

Well, Frazier would certainly crowd him and do it better than anyone Louis ever beat. Foreman was the only one who managed to keep Frazier at bay, and he did that with help of methods that Louis wouldn't/couldn't employ.

[he grant]

And what is Louis going to do as Frazier swarms in ? He will fire back with killer shots that will take Frazier's head off ... who are the swarmers who gave him such trouble ? Godoy fought a ridiculous fight in their first encounter and while he frustrated Louis with his near Jimmy Young style tactics, he did not come close to winning ... Joe went to the body in the rematch and destroyed him .. Appearances aside Galento was a 230 pound bull with one punch KO power for 5 or six rounds and Louis ripped his head off. Many here are simply forgetting just how exceptional a fighter Louis was ... it is amusing though ...

[JIm Broughton]

If anyone blows the other away it would be Frazier blowing away Louis in 3 or 4 rounds. It all boils down to style and I think Joe would stand a better chance of taking out Louis quicker than Louis would Joe. With Frazier's constant head movement and busy hands he could nullify Louis' straight punches while at the same time whipping hooks to Joe's body and head. Frazier is Godoy squared as far as busier hands and fast pressure is concerned and he would be more difficult to hit cleanly than Schmeling was. With that being said I still think that Louis would have a few stoppages if they met 10 times. If louis can time Joe's head movement and catch him with a couple of hard shots then he could hurt him and stop him in say 5 or 6 rounds but it wouldn't be easy. In the end both would have their share of KO's...Frazier early and Louis a little later. I don't see many (if any) of these fights going the distance though.

[Bokaj]

And what is Louis going to do as Frazier swarms in ? He will fire back with killer shots that will take Frazier's head off ... who are the swarmers who gave him such trouble ? Godoy fought a ridiculous fight in their first encounter and while he frustrated Louis with his near Jimmy Young style tactics, he did not come close to winning ... Joe went to the body in the rematch and destroyed him .. Appearances aside Galento was a 230 pound bull with one punch KO power for 5 or six rounds and Louis ripped his head off. Many here are simply forgetting just how exceptional a fighter Louis was ... it is amusing though ...

Nothing is forgotten. I just think Frazier was pretty damn good as well.

[cuchulain]

First of all, let's be a bit more fair to Frazier and use the 1967 - 1970 version.

Foreman NEVER beat the prime version of Frazier. The Frazier that he destroyed in two rounds, 1973, was indeed only two years removed from the FOTC, but there's a huge difference in conditoning. I'll put my money on the the Joe Frazier, just prior to the FOTC, to beat George Foreman inside ten rounds. Styles don't always make fights and Foreman never had to face a prime conditioned Frazier that would pound his body and make him miss with his trademark head movement. People on this forum also tend to discredit prime Frazier's overall speed, hand and foot. Foreman wouldn't be able to land the same shots that Ali landed because he doesn't have the handspeed. If prime Frazier was able to make Ali miss, there's certainly no reason why he wouldn't be able to make the much slower Foreman miss, and land to the body. If Frazier used the same tactics he did against Foreman, like he did against George Chuvalo, consisting of more jabs, right hands, more circling, less pressure and more body shots, George would be in a tougher fight. Say what you want about Mercante's officiating job in the 1973 title defense, but there's no denying the fact that he let George get away with more wrestling, holding and shoving tactics than any other referee. George wouldn't have the endurance to keep pushing a prime Frazier away, and eventually Frazier would take away his power from the result of his body attack. Any heavyweight in history, champion or contender would be very hard pressed to stop a prime 1967 -1970 Joe Frazier.

As for Joe Louis, he may have Frazier down early, like most bigger punchers could have, when facing him. Joe Louis is NOT bombing out prime Frazier, but he probably stops the 1973 conditioned Frazier in 5 or 6 rounds, not as quick as Foreman. Prime Frazier would KO a healthier Louis worse than what Marciano did to a depleted Louis.



I don't believe that any version of Fraziier would have had much chance against George.

He was all wrong for George.

He was always a come-forward type of fighter and very durable, but that George (pre Ali) would have landed on Frazier early and often and the result would have been the same.


Frazier at 29, had not declined noticeably from FOTC, less than two years earlier.

He still had wins over Bugner, Quarry and Ellis in his future, not to mention to more competitive fights with Ali.

But he never had the right style for Foreman.





I would pick Louis to win most of the ten. Maybe eight or nine.

[round15]

Again I love Frazier but I think some of you guys are crazy ... Frazier was a slow starter. Louis could come out like lightning. I happen to think not only was Louis a much faster puncher than Foreman, I think he was a better puncher than Foreman. I think he would take Frazier out . No one who gets hit and is a slow starter matches up well against Louis.

I really don't get this notion of Frazier being a slow starter.

Sure, it's absolutely believable, when compared to Ali, but when compared to anyone else it doesn't make sense. I'd say Frazier is more vulnerable in the early rounds which has nothing to do with him being a slow starter. There's a difference between being a slow starter in the early rounds and being vulnerable in the early rounds. Don't tell me Frazier was a slow starter after watching the pace he set in the FOTC against Ali and how it accelerated through the middle rounds. There are very few champions or contenders that would be able to handle Frazier's pressure for the early rounds of a fight before he gets in close and works the body.

George Foreman never had to face this version of Frazier because Joe was well past his prime shape. Nobody should deny either, Mercante's job in this fight, which was bad at best. NO other referee would allow Foreman to grab both of Frazier's shoulders and shove him aside to create punching room. That's not boxing, it's wrestling, and Foreman did this more than once in the first round.

Louis wouldn't be able to handle prime Frazier's pace and body attack. I think it's a safe bet that Louis may land some sharp combinations early and might have Frazier in trouble or on the canvas early in a fight. Louis is not stopping Frazier and gets knocked out himself well before the 10th round.

[round15]

I don't believe that any version of Fraziier would have had much chance against George.

He was all wrong for George.

He was always a come-forward type of fighter and very durable, but that George (pre Ali) would have landed on Frazier early and often and the result would have been the same.


Frazier at 29, had not declined noticeably from FOTC, less than two years earlier.

He still had wins over Bugner, Quarry and Ellis in his future, not to mention to more competitive fights with Ali.

But he never had the right style for Foreman.





I would pick Louis to win most of the ten. Maybe eight or nine.

Styles wouldn't make a difference, and Foreman's bigger body gives prime Frazier a much bigger target. There's no way Foreman lands the same shots he did in 1973 against the Frazier of 1968 - 1970. Frazier would make him miss a lot more punches and would certainly slow George down, landing to the body.

I believe the Frazier of 1968 - 1970, stands a much better chance at making it to the middle rounds against Foreman. It is still a big IF which is justified because George took care of Frazier and destroyed him inside two rounds the first time. One thing that is forgotten though is the conditioning of Frazier, which was markedly inferior to the conditioning he exuded PRE-FOTC to FOTC. Foreman never had to deal with a prime Frazier coming at him after the early rounds attacking his body.

[yancey]

I really don't get this notion of Frazier being a slow starter.

Sure, it's absolutely believable, when compared to Ali, but when compared to anyone else it doesn't make sense. I'd say Frazier is more vulnerable in the early rounds which has nothing to do with him being a slow starter. There's a difference between being a slow starter in the early rounds and being vulnerable in the early rounds. Don't tell me Frazier was a slow starter after watching the pace he set in the FOTC against Ali and how it accelerated through the middle rounds. There are very few champions or contenders that would be able to handle Frazier's pressure for the early rounds of a fight before he gets in close and works the body.

George Foreman never had to face this version of Frazier because Joe was well past his prime shape. Nobody should deny either, Mercante's job in this fight, which was bad at best. NO other referee would allow Foreman to grab both of Frazier's shoulders and shove him aside to create punching room. That's not boxing, it's wrestling, and Foreman did this more than once in the first round.

Louis wouldn't be able to handle prime Frazier's pace and body attack. I think it's a safe bet that Louis may land some sharp combinations early and might have Frazier in trouble or on the canvas early in a fight. Louis is not stopping Frazier and gets knocked out himself well before the 10th round.

Agreed.

Louis would most likely go anywhere from round 5 to round 9 against Frazier. He would not be able to stand up to prime Frazier's relentless pressure. He could well hurt Joe early, but once Joe gets in and stays in the body punching would take effect and the head shots would follow.

It is laughable that some bring in Galento and Godoy as examples of swarmers that Louis handled, in order to project on how Louis would deal with Frazier. Frazier is a WHOLE LOT DIFFERENT form of swarmer. A different galaxy, if you will. Lol.

Louis never saw the kind of BUZZSAW swarm that '67-'70 Frazier brought to the table.

Never.

[mr. magoo]

=round15;4222383]Styles wouldn't make a difference,

On the contrary, I think that this is the ONLY thing that really does matter in a Foreman vs Fazier matchup.
and Foreman's bigger body gives prime Frazier a much bigger target.

Oh sure, like Frazier was really the type of fighter to stand back, use the ring and pick out his shots.. Sorry, but this simply isn't the case. His bobbing and weaving style made a perfect target for a Foreman upper cut, and believe me it wouldn't matter if the guy was 20 years old, or 29...


There's no way Foreman lands the same shots he did in 1973 against the Frazier of 1968 - 1970. Frazier would make him miss a lot more punches

Where exactly do you think he'd go?


I believe the Frazier of 1968 - 1970, stands a much better chance at making it to the middle rounds against Foreman. It is still a big IF which is justified because George took care of Frazier and destroyed him inside two rounds the first time.

Perhaps.

One thing that is forgotten though is the conditioning of Frazier, which was markedly inferior to the conditioning he exuded PRE-FOTC to FOTC.

True to some extent.


Foreman never had to deal with a prime Frazier coming at him after the early rounds attacking his body


And Frazier was well unaccustomed to facing a truly elite puncher who was capable of standing right in front of him and bombarding him with ferocious shots. Hell, the closest he ever came prior to that fight was Oscar Bonavena who decked him twice. Are you now going to claim that Joe was past it agianst Bonavena?

[yancey]

Frazier wasn't "past it" against Bonavena I, he was "before it."

[mr. magoo]

Frazier wasn't "past it" against Bonavena I, he was "before it."


Absolutely,

In fact, I think the reason Mathis beat him in the amatuers was because Frazier was pasit it then too.

[janitor]

I really don't get this notion of Frazier being a slow starter.

Sure, it's absolutely believable, when compared to Ali, but when compared to anyone else it doesn't make sense. I'd say Frazier is more vulnerable in the early rounds which has nothing to do with him being a slow starter.

Well I have recently posted an analysis of which heavyweights through history scored the most knockouts in the first four rounds of the fight and
I did not include Frazier because he did not have enough to make it worth including him.

Even relative to Marciano.