Sonny Liston's resume

[Baby Bull]

How does it compare to other great heavyweights?

[WhataRock]

Pretty well...its stronger then people give it credit for because of his exceptional non-title work aswell.

[Rock0052]

Pretty well...its stronger then people give it credit for because of his exceptional non-title work aswell.

I think most of that strength is the non-title work and the contenders he fought on the way up since he was only 2-2 in title fights, and 2 of those are the stench of the Ali bouts. Overall, I thought it was about average in the scheme of things.

I'd been trying to compile a list of his record vs top 10 guys, and so far, it doesn't look as good depth-wise as I thought. Not in his record against them, but the quantity was less than I expected:

Mike Dejohn
Zora Folley
Roy Harris
Eddie Machen
Floyd Patterson
Cassius Clay (Muhammad Ali for the rematch)

His record vs top 10 competition was 6-2. Valdez and Cleveland Williams weren't ranked when Liston fought them (Valdez was coming off a couple losses, Williams hadn't quite made it yet and needed another decent name or two). I wouldn't necessarily begrudge anyone who did include Williams, as he did become top 10 the year after the 2nd Liston fight and stayed there until 1964, even though I'm playing it by the books. Should you include him , Liston's record against top 10 comp improves to 8-2. Because 3 of the fights involved rematches, that comes out to 7 different top 10 fighters faced if you're generous and include Williams.

One thing that is impressive is that only Machen and Clay (Ali) managed to not get stopped by Sonny out of that lot.

[TheGreatA]

I think most of that strength is the non-title work and the contenders he fought on the way up since he was only 2-2 in title fights, and 2 of those are the stench of the Ali bouts. Overall, I thought it was about average in the scheme of things.

I'd been trying to compile a list of his record vs top 10 guys, and so far, it doesn't look as good depth-wise as I thought. Not in his record against them, but the quantity was less than I expected:

Mike Dejohn
Zora Folley
Roy Harris
Eddie Machen
Floyd Patterson
Cassius Clay (Muhammad Ali for the rematch)

His record vs top 10 competition was 6-2. Valdez and Cleveland Williams weren't ranked when Liston fought them (Valdez was coming off a couple losses, Williams hadn't quite made it yet and needed another decent name or two). I wouldn't necessarily begrudge anyone who did include Williams, as he did become top 10 the year after the 2nd Liston fight and stayed there until 1964, even though I'm playing it by the books. Should you include him , Liston's record against top 10 comp improves to 8-2. Because 3 of the fights involved rematches, that comes out to 7 different top 10 fighters faced if you're generous and include Williams.

One thing that is impressive is that only Machen and Clay (Ali) managed to not get stopped by Sonny out of that lot.

Wasn't Johnny Summerlin rated in the top 10 when Liston beat him twice? I guess he was rated later.

Wayne Bethea was rated in the top 10 in 1956 and 1957, not sure if he was when Liston beat him.

Marty Marshall was a top 10 light heavy but that probably doesn't count.

I may be wrong but Henry Clark was probably in the top 10 at the time Liston beat him. He was coming off wins over Leotis Martin (the man who would later beat Sonny) and an old Eddie Machen.

[Rock0052]

Wasn't Johnny Summerlin rated in the top 10 when Liston beat him twice? I guess he was rated later.

Wayne Bethea was rated in the top 10 in 1956 and 1957, not sure if he was when Liston beat him.

Marty Marshall was a top 10 light heavy but that probably doesn't count.

Summerlin was another case of being ranked the year after Liston beat him, mainly based off of stopping Folley, handing Zora his first loss. He really didn't fight anyone until after the Liston defeats. I should also note that for the sake of simplicity and saving time, I'm using the The Ring's year end rankings here. Anyone with the monthly rankings at hand should feel free to set me straight. :thumbsup

I did omit Marty Marshall, who was ranked at LHW at the end of 1954, the first fight, but not the rematch. Thanks for noticing that. Because he was ranked in the smaller class, I'll consider him borderline by heavyweight standards.

That would bring the tally of year end ranked contenders Liston fought to 6-2, with the next tier of Summerlin, Valdez, Marshall, and Williams making up the borderline group, of which Sonny went 6-1. Williams had the best case to be top 10 at the time at HW.

Not a bad record at all when it's all said and done, and a solid, if unspectacular, overall resume. For anyone who wants to move one name around for one reason or another, it should be pretty simple to adjust the numbers as they see fit.

Bethea, by the way, was essentially a trial horse by the time Liston got to him.


Edit: It's just now crossed my mind that including fighters ranked the year before Liston fought them would work just as well, if not better, in evaluating the competition and how they were viewed before he fought them, as long as they didn't go on a losing streak before meeting Sonny.

[Unforgiven]

His resume as fairly good, but not outstanding, in the quantity of established contenders he defeated.
The manner in which he beat good fighters is really the key to Liston's reputation though.

I think sometimes people over-emphasize his "cleaning out" of the division, when it's not unique nor particularly unusual at heavyweight for someone to beat many of the relevant names across a 2 to 3 year period. Eliminating two or three of the leading contenders to get a deserved title shot used to be fairly standard practice. Liston may have gone beyond that, but not by much.

[PowerPuncher]

Its good but gets a bit overrated on here