Basilio vs Napoles @WW over 15

[GPater11093]

this would be a decent contest wouldnt it.

Basilio's nephew Billy Backus gave Napoles all types of problems before stopping him on cuts but while losing on points. Backus then put up a very good fight in the return and still gave Napoles problems but eventually lost on cuts while down on points again.

Basilio however was a better version of Backus and alot better fighter. he beat Ray Robinson who was a master boxer like Napoles and arguably beat Gavilan who is another boxer similar to Napoles

i think this would be a very good contest, thoughts?

[Flea Man]

I think Napoles would be surging ahead on points in a classic battle......Napoles' ability to box away from Basilio may be the key, but I feel Carmen's pressure would cause an awful cut late on and Napoles would be stopped.

Shame....I think any ATG with a good chin will beat Napoles as he was so easy to cut. However, Napoles has mind-numbing power.....but I don't think it stops Basilio's pressure,

BASILIO W CUTS 13


Only my opinion though.

[PowerPuncher]

Napoles widish UD. Napoles cuts problem isnt as bad as its made out, he was only stopped 3times on cuts, 2 of those over the age of 30 (1 in his last fight), lets say a younger Mantequilla who didn't have lingering facial injuries shows up.

[heehoo]

Mantequilla over 15.

[Flea Man]

Napoles widish UD. Napoles cuts problem isnt as bad as its made out, he was only stopped 3times on cuts, 2 of those over the age of 30 (1 in his last fight), lets say a younger Mantequilla who didn't have lingering facial injuries shows up.

Okay....let's assume Napoles doesn't get stopped on cuts. Yes, I would say he would win, a fairly Wide Decision, say, 10-5, 9-6.

[GPater11093]

but backus did give napoles problems and basilio is a better Backus how does Napoles do any better against basilio than he did Backus?

[Flea Man]

Fair enough comment. I don't nessecarily think Napoles struggled with 'swarmers' (from what I've seen anyways).....umm, maybe he had a bad night, maybe Backus had a good night?

You goin' through a bit of a Basilio/Gavilan 50's fighters phase GPater? Like I did with the 70's Latin fighters :good

[GPater11093]

nah its not a phase.

always liked Basilio, Gavilan, SRR, Fullmer etc... but Dempsey send me afew DVDs and ive been watching them.

ive just been off school so just been watching fights from all eras.

have you saw backus vs Napoles. Napoles was just past prime but being given problems in 2 fights is more than just 2 bad nights in a rw with Backus having 2 good nights if you get me.

However Backus was a southpaw

[scartissue]

Fair enough comment. I don't nessecarily think Napoles struggled with 'swarmers' (from what I've seen anyways).....umm, maybe he had a bad night, maybe Backus had a good night?

You goin' through a bit of a Basilio/Gavilan 50's fighters phase GPater? Like I did with the 70's Latin fighters :good

Possibly because Backus was a southpaw that he gave Napoles a hard time. I can't recall any other left-handers that Napoles fought, although I'm sure they're out there.

Scartissue

[GPater11093]

Possibly because Backus was a southpaw that he gave Napoles a hard time. I can't recall any other left-handers that Napoles fought, although I'm sure they're out there.

Scartissue

yeh i just posted that it i just remembered

although Backus didnt exactly use the southpaw stance like a normal southpaw he just kinda plodded forward like a lesser Basilio

[Flea Man]

Well, without seeing the fight Greg I can't comment.

However, havin finally knocked the bad stuff on the head I have a lot more get up and go so who knows I might finally get my ass in gear and start trading with ya......:good

[GPater11093]

Backus was a southpaw Basilio without the subtle skills

yeh trading would be good

[Sweet Pea]

I'm not even positive Napoles wins on points, which is to say nothing of the fact that this fight would more than likely end with someone's face being cut to pieces. A bigger, stronger brusier like Basilio with that style of roughing and crowding is all wrong for Jose, who'd likely have success in the early rounds before being forced into too many exchanges for his own good, until the fight eventually devolved into more of a taxing slug-fest/in-fight. If that type of fight somehow didn't lead to a cuts stoppage (Basilio was quite susceptible to cuts himself), I still think it would play to Napoles's disadvantage, as Basilio's size and strength advantage over the natural LW Napoles would give him the edge.

I'd bet on Basilio if forced, over 15 rounds. One of the worst matchups for Mantequilla IMO.

[laxpdx]

I think Napoles would be ahead on the scorecard, on his way to a decision win, until Basilio turns up the heat and starts applying pressure...and inflicts a nasty cut on Jose's face.

[Russell]

Basilio is not a fighter you want to have coming at you if your skin is a giant question mark. I can't think of very many other fighters if any who I'd want to tangle with less in that situation.

[Sweet Pea]

Then again, Basilio was a bleeder himself. It's possible Mantequilla's slicing combos could open it up first in the earlier parts of the fight.

[GPater11093]

I'm not even positive Napoles wins on points, which is to say nothing of the fact that this fight would more than likely end with someone's face being cut to pieces. A bigger, stronger brusier like Basilio with that style of roughing and crowding is all wrong for Jose, who'd likely have success in the early rounds before being forced into too many exchanges for his own good, until the fight eventually devolved into more of a taxing slug-fest/in-fight. If that type of fight somehow didn't lead to a cuts stoppage (Basilio was quite susceptible to cuts himself), I still think it would play to Napoles's disadvantage, as Basilio's size and strength advantage over the natural LW Napoles would give him the edge.

I'd bet on Basilio if forced, over 15 rounds. One of the worst matchups for Mantequilla IMO.

i can see it going that way too. Good anaylisis

but i can also see Napoles winning closely in the same sort of situation but with his boxing shinining through.

This fight would be very debatable

Then again, Basilio was a bleeder himself. It's possible Mantequilla's slicing combos could open it up first in the earlier parts of the fight.

good point Basilio also swelled up really bad aswell

[Dempsey1238]

Dont think Basilio ever was stop on cuts.

The only fights were Carman was cut bad, was Robinson II, Davy II, and perhaps Pender.

[Raging B(_)LL]

I'm not even positive Napoles wins on points, which is to say nothing of the fact that this fight would more than likely end with someone's face being cut to pieces. A bigger, stronger brusier like Basilio with that style of roughing and crowding is all wrong for Jose, who'd likely have success in the early rounds before being forced into too many exchanges for his own good, until the fight eventually devolved into more of a taxing slug-fest/in-fight. If that type of fight somehow didn't lead to a cuts stoppage (Basilio was quite susceptible to cuts himself), I still think it would play to Napoles's disadvantage, as Basilio's size and strength advantage over the natural LW Napoles would give him the edge.

I'd bet on Basilio if forced, over 15 rounds. One of the worst matchups for Mantequilla IMO.

My sentiments exactly, well said.

[DFW]

Other than the second Robinson fight where Carmen had that hideous eye injury I don't recall any really serious cuts that could have caused a stoppage. He had some cuts around the eye in the 2nd Fullmer fight. He bled pretty good from a cut over his eye in the 1st Robinson fight. I think he would have held up OK with Napoles and would have had a good shot at winning.

[GPater11093]

just in intrest whee do you guys rate Basilio and Napoles

[Flea Man]

Gavilan about no. 35-40 (ish) on my alltime list.....basilio about 36-41(ish) :good

[GPater11093]

what about Napoles

[teeto]

I'm not even positive Napoles wins on points, which is to say nothing of the fact that this fight would more than likely end with someone's face being cut to pieces. A bigger, stronger brusier like Basilio with that style of roughing and crowding is all wrong for Jose, who'd likely have success in the early rounds before being forced into too many exchanges for his own good, until the fight eventually devolved into more of a taxing slug-fest/in-fight. If that type of fight somehow didn't lead to a cuts stoppage (Basilio was quite susceptible to cuts himself), I still think it would play to Napoles's disadvantage, as Basilio's size and strength advantage over the natural LW Napoles would give him the edge.

I'd bet on Basilio if forced, over 15 rounds. One of the worst matchups for Mantequilla IMO.
Interesting that you feel Basilio can win, as i agree. Not just because of the cuts issue though. I always think that if a stronger opponent can put in decent attempts to have Napoles against the ropes, then depending on the skillset, a win is achievable. Basilio fits my bill, i always thought that Basilio was alot sharper than Jake LaMotta, though likely not as crafty.

I don't want to actually go out and say Basilio wins over 15, something ios holding me back, but i think you get my flow

[Flea Man]

SHIT! I'm on the wrong thread lol

Napoles about the same. I would say all three of those guys would be ranked between 30-40.....maybe Gavilan creeps into the top 30.

Ouch, it's a hard one to call, a thread is needed!

[GPater11093]

Interesting that you feel Basilio can win, as i agree. Not just because of the cuts issue though. I always think that if a stronger opponent can put in decent attempts to have Napoles against the ropes, then depending on the skillset, a win is achievable. Basilio fits my bill, i always thought that Basilio was alot sharper than Jake LaMotta, though likely not as crafty.

I don't want to actually go out and say Basilio wins over 15, something ios holding me back, but i think you get my flow

yeh it is a tough fight to analyse

I think Basilio defencivly is better than Jake watch his fight with Gavilan defensivly he is pretty good

has good head movement and blocks shots very well

SHIT! I'm on the wrong thread lol

Napoles about the same. I would say all three of those guys would be ranked between 30-40.....maybe Gavilan creeps into the top 30.

Ouch, it's a hard one to call, a thread is needed!

i owuld have Napoles top 25-35 and Gavilan and Basilio close in the 30s

[Dempsey1238]

Basilio's some were in my top 20.

[GPater11093]

Basilio's some were in my top 20.

the more i think of it the more deserving he is of it

[teeto]

yeh it is a tough fight to analyse

I think Basilio defencivly is better than Jake watch his fight with Gavilan defensivly he is pretty good

has good head movement and blocks shots very well





Yeah i've seen that fight, he was a great fighter, good movement of the head, a little like Frazier, though i think his advantages over LaMotta largely lie in his offense personally

[Sweet Pea]

LaMotta isn't to be underestimated defensively either. His legendary durability often overshadows his defensive skills, as people figure you can't build your reputation on taking shots if you're a good defensive fighter. Most of the footage of LaMotta is either past prime or against great fighters, such as Robinson, which is why a lot of hid defensive skills are missed. He actually had very good parrying skills and head movement of his own, which allowed him to be an effective jabber and counter-puncher.

[GPater11093]

Yeah i've seen that fight, he was a great fighter, good movement of the head, a little like Frazier, though i think his advantages over LaMotta largely lie in his offense personally

they are both real crafty.

Basilio had a good left hand and an underrated jab he also counter punched really well. When he got going he threw brutal combos especially against the ropes.

I think laMotta is ust slightly better at cutting of teh ring

[GPater11093]

LaMotta isn't to be underestimated defensively either. His legendary durability often overshadows his defensive skills, as people figure you can't build your reputation on taking shots if you're a good defensive fighter. Most of the footage of LaMotta is either past prime or against great fighters, such as Robinson, which is why a lot of hid defensive skills are missed. He actually had very good parrying skills and head movement of his own, which allowed him to be an effective jabber and counter-puncher.

i know all that aswell i rate lamottas defence pretty well i know he wasnt just some durable slugger i just think basilio is better

[teeto]

LaMotta isn't to be underestimated defensively either. His legendary durability often overshadows his defensive skills, as people figure you can't build your reputation on taking shots if you're a good defensive fighter. Most of the footage of LaMotta is either past prime or against great fighters, such as Robinson, which is why a lot of hid defensive skills are missed. He actually had very good parrying skills and head movement of his own, which allowed him to be an effective jabber and counter-puncher.
Of course, this is why i outlined that Basilio's advantages in my opinion are in the sharpness of his offensive arsenal overall. The shoulder roll and change in height are his biggest assets on defense from my knowledge.

His contemporaries of the same era speak very highly of him on his craftiness

[teeto]

they are both real crafty.

Basilio had a good left hand and an underrated jab he also counter punched really well. When he got going he threw brutal combos especially against the ropes.

I think laMotta is ust slightly better at cutting of teh ring
Yeah, like i say, in my opinion thugh, the main advantages are his sharpness, equally as sharp with either hand was Basilio, and hardly any telegraphed shots, just my take

[GPater11093]

yeh i get your take we both just think roughly the same but a bit different