How will history view the current light heavyweight "lineal situation"?

[GazOC]

Post Michael Spinks there is there is a clear line thats goes from Virgil Hill, who lost to DM in a 3 belt unification fight through Gonzales to Erdei in the present day.

Nice and simple at first look but a competing lineage of Roy Jones (who unified 3 belts at 175 but only after DM had established his lineage)/ Tarver/ Hopkins/ Calzaghe has the "better" recent names attached to it.

In 20 or 30 years will people see that DM started his lineage first and grudgingly accept that Gonzales and Erdei must come with the deal or will they look at the more impressive names on the list of champions started by Roy Jones Junior and say that provided the true 175 champs of the day??

[the cobra]

I'm going to guess that the Jones lineage will be the more accepted one. Even though the true lineage belongs to DM, Gonzales, and Erdei, it was Jones, Tarver, Hopkins, and Calzaghe who were pretty much universally regarded as the #1 fighter in the division during their reign as champion, which is really the most important thing.

That could change depending on what Erdei does. With Calzaghe retired, the "popular lineage" no longer exists, so if Dawson (or whoever is seen as the top guy at 175 in the next few years) gets a fight with Erdei, then the winner will have both the true lineage and universal recognition as the #1 fighter at the weight, thus solving this whole situation.

[GPater11093]

the true lineage is DMs lineage

but Jones was the better fighter should he be punished for not seking lineage

[TBooze]

People make it up as they go along, so Jones will always be considered a 35 time Light Heavyweight champion, or whatever it was......

Erdei is the Champion, Jones a title holder and for a period of time the #1 contender.

[Flea Man]

Shame Jones and Dariuzs didn't fight. Although I think it probably would've looked a lot like the Ruiz fight (although Michalewski was far better. He was no Erdei judging from what I've seen)


Erdei is absolutely God awful. Tavoris Cloud, the only really exciting guy left, is not fighting very regularly at all. Chad Dawson is moving DOWN the division is so poor, it's like 154 about 16 months ago.

[GazOC]

the true lineage is DMs lineage

but Jones was the better fighter should he be punished for not seking lineage

I don't really want to get into punishing or blaming fighters. I'm just curious how people think this issue will be remembered in the years to come.

[TBooze]

Erdei is absolutely God awful.

But that is not the point; I would agree he is not the best 175lber ever but Erdei won THE Championship, continues to fight at 175, and has yet to lose, thus is the champ.

People lack patience now a days, always wanting quick fixes, when things do not go their way.

Erdei is Champ, but boxing continues despite this.

RJJ for what ever reason choose not to fight Michalczewski and thus never had the chance to fight for the Light Heavyweight Championship of the World.

That is Roy Jr's fault, not Erdei's.

[asero]

funny to think that jones was undisputed but not lineal...DM vacated some of his titles

[GazOC]

BTW this question was sparked by a thread on the General Forum that listed the Lineal LightHeavyweight Championship as one of Joe Calzaghes achievements.

I pointed out this wasn't true, that the line from DM was the valid one and didn't really expect any serious arguments on the subject but quite a few people where of the opinion that because RJJ had unified belts and "his" lineage contained the better fighters that this was enough to retrospectively "strip" DM and the lineage he had started or that DMs claim to have started a lineage was a grey area and not nessarcerily any more valid that Jones claim to have started one.

[Dempsey1238]

The only way for DM to lose the lineal belt was to either retire or lose.


Just because Jones unify the titles, didnt make him lineal. Same thing with Mike Tyson in the 80's. He didnt become the man until he blasted Spinks out.

[istmeno]

The only way for DM to lose the lineal belt was to either retire or lose.


Just because Jones unify the titles, didnt make him lineal. Same thing with Mike Tyson in the 80's. He didnt become the man until he blasted Spinks out. we don't have to go that far back. juan manuel marquez became the defacto lineal champion at 135 when he beat casamayor. who did not lose his title in the ring, rather to politics. he cemented it when he beat diaz

[doomeddisciple]

Michael Spinks (1983-Sep. 1985, vacates title).
Virgil Hill (1996 - 1997)
Dariusz Michalczewski (1997-2003)
Julio Cesar Gonzalez (2003-2004)
Zsolt Erdei (2004-present)

That's the current lineal line.

[GPater11093]

I don't really want to get into punishing or blaming fighters. I'm just curious how people think this issue will be remembered in the years to come.

ok got you but surely a top level fighter of Jones calibre should lookfor linearship

BTW this question was sparked by a thread on the General Forum that listed the Lineal LightHeavyweight Championship as one of Joe Calzaghes achievements.

I pointed out this wasn't true, that the line from DM was the valid one and didn't really expect any serious arguments on the subject but quite a few people where of the opinion that because RJJ had unified belts and "his" lineage contained the better fighters that this was enough to retrospectively "strip" DM and the lineage he had started or that DMs claim to have started a lineage was a grey area and not nessarcerily any more valid that Jones claim to have started one.

Following my method of establishing Linearship (the Ring number 1 fighting the Number 2) DM got it. I cant remember who he beat for it im sure someone will help me out here.

So Jones did unify the titles but DM was still linear champ and as for saying he had a more impressive reign thats like someone claiming Sam langford as the LHW champion on his impressive record

[Rourke]

Does anyone know the real reason behind RJJ/DM never happening?

[GazOC]

Following my method of establishing Linearship (the Ring number 1 fighting the Number 2) DM got it. I cant remember who he beat for it im sure someone will help me out here.

So Jones did unify the titles but DM was still linear champ and as for saying he had a more impressive reign thats like someone claiming Sam langford as the LHW champion on his impressive record

DM beat Virgil Hill. I think #1 vs #2 is the Rings way of establishing a new lineage (or #1 vs #3 in some circumstances) as well as yours...;)

[My2Sense]

Whoever is recognized as the lineal champ is the lineal champ, nothing can change that or take that away.

Whether or not a fighter is considered the best in a division, or is "punished" for not pursuing the lineal title, is another matter altogether.

[My2Sense]

Does anyone know the real reason behind RJJ/DM never happening?

Neither guy went out of their way to make the fight.

The closest the fight came to being made was around '97-98, when Roy's team said they were looking at an offer of around 10 or 12 million to fight Dariusz in Germany. Roy chose to fight Hill instead, and after knocking him out declared that he would never go to Germany to fight Dariusz unless he got something like 20 million for it. Meanwhile, Dariusz said that he would never go to the US to fight (at least not for the money he was being offered), and that was where the matter stood for about seven years straight.

[Rourke]

Not trying to knock on RJJ since I don't know the facts but at that point in both men's careers wasn't he then considered the challenger, since DM had already taken the title from Hill?

[teeto]

Yeah it's plain and simple, DM's lineage is the true lineage, but of course in lesser hardcore boxing circles Erdei will not be remembered as the champion of the era. It's a situation similar to what took place round the start of the last century, in the sense of guys sitting on titles and others being considered, and probably rightfully so, better

[GazOC]

Not trying to knock on RJJ since I don't know the facts but at that point in both men's careers wasn't he then considered the challenger, since DM had already taken the title from Hill?

I think the DM-Hill fight is generally considered as being for the vacant lineal title, it brought together 3 belts out of the 4. By the time Jones fought Hill DM was champ and Hill and Jones where 2 top contenders.

[Rourke]

Well that was kind of my point, why did Jones go after Hill and not DM since DM had already beaten Hill. If the reason was that no one wanted to go to the other guy's backyard, it's a really awful one, considering both being undefeated.

[My2Sense]

Well that was kind of my point, why did Jones go after Hill and not DM since DM had already beaten Hill.

It seemed to me like he wanted to beat Hill to make some kind of statement. He took a former Dariusz opponent, beat him even more impressively than Dariusz did, and then basically declared that he held all the cards and that Dariusz would have to meet him on his own terms.